Drugs and Christian Counseling (rerun)

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the apostle

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Paul said, but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and I have the proverbial frog in my throat. Why is that, a frog in your throat?

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Why isn't it a toad in your throat? Why isn't it a bow weevil in your throat? What is a bow weevil?

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I don't know, but it sounds bad, because it's close to evil, a bow evil, bow evil. Well, I've got a variety of things today on my desk, trying to clear this desk off, clean this desk off.

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I mean, you do radio every day. What are you going to do? Actually, it's the holiday times, it's winter solstice time, so I'm not doing too many shows.

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I try to get 25, 30 ahead, something like that, so then you can just sit back and relax and watch the

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Geiger counter, Arbitron ratings increase exponentially.

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There's a book that I just was reviewing, not like technically reviewing, but just looking through, and I was viewing it in the past, and now

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I'm reviewing it again to look again, and it's called The Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference.

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A Christian counselor's, I see Lagos booting up in the background, did you hear that? A Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference, and it is written by Robert D.

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Smith, MD. He was helping us at Master Seminary in Grace Church for years with new thetic counseling, biblical counseling, and it's nice when a doctor writes something because then it's not this pastoral thing.

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And Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference, and it has a chapter on just using the

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Bible in general for counseling. What is biblical counseling? It has a chapter on ADHD, on anxiety,

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I think. It has a chapter on, if you think of an issue in, probably one on schizophrenia,

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I think there's one on bedwetting, some kind of, you know, sexual things.

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If you have issues that you would typically think of as psychological issues, this book probably has a chapter in it for you.

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This book would be good to give to your pastor, be good for you to read sometime, Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference.

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It seems like it's kind of almost a self -published kind of thing. I don't have the full book in front of me. I just have one chapter in front of me that was making me think of it.

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And the chapter I have in front of me today, I don't know if we're gonna talk about this the whole time, 24 minutes gets away from you, are psychotropic drugs needed in biblical counseling?

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Are mind altering drugs, that's what psychotropic is, needed in biblical counseling?

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Should we use drugs to help people feel better, improve people's feelings?

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And should pastors, well, they can't prescribe them, of course, only a psychiatric person could, but how should we think through this?

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And so, initially and early on, I have to say, of course, I'm not a doctor, but my dad was

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Marcus Welby. I'm not a doctor, and so I can't tell people with any kind of legal background, with any legal authority rather, hey, you should do this.

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And even when it comes to counseling in general, the MO here at the church, and I think every pastor, every

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Christian's way of operation should be, well, the Bible says this clearly, anxiety is a sin, you must not be sinful, and here's the remedy as you trust in the

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Lord, and here's what Jesus did with anxiety on the cross. You can say that, but your authority ends when the scripture's authority,

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I mean, you can go as far as the scripture goes, that's, I was gonna say something before that would have needed a correction.

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So I have to say, in my opinion, or my wisdom would be, because it's completely different.

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This is the scripture, this is wisdom. So anyway, lots of this stuff has to do with, if I were you,

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I'd do this. That's what I often say in counseling. If I were you, this is what I would do. And then, if the person doesn't do it, well, they don't do it.

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And so there are folks at the church who, they say, well, we're gonna continue to take some psychotropic drugs, and we don't kick them out of the church, we don't ostracize them, we don't think, oh, you know, who are you?

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It has nothing to do with that at all. It has to do with, if you're on psychotropic drugs, do you need to stay on them the rest of your life?

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Is there such thing as a real chemical imbalance? What does lithium do? What does Ativan do?

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And the list goes on. I think in my younger days, I think I was harsher, well, just in general, but probably harsher when it comes to this, and probably less empathetic than I am now.

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And maybe you don't think I'm empathetic, maybe you think I'm pathetic now, but I think there's a different tact.

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And hopefully, as I'm more mature, I'm 54 now, and I think about people, I know

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I'm weak and sinful, and I deal with other people who are weak and sinful, and so how do you deal with weak sheep, right?

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And whack them and bash them? I try to help them. And this would be good for everyone to read. Are psychotropic drugs needed for counseling?

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And so, for some folks, they've been told by their doctors that they're gonna have to be on this for the rest of their life, and if it doesn't work, you need to increase dosage, you need to change medicines.

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And the thing is, there are side effects to drugs. So how long can you take

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Prilosec before there's bone problems? How long can you take? I don't know, what else do people take?

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I'm trying to think, because of what I take. Now, when I go to the doctor,

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I see the signs. Before, I didn't really notice the signs, and now when I put on my glasses, I see the signs. Please come to your next appointment with a list of all the things you're taking.

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So, besides some supplemental herb type of things, I try not to take anything except,

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I think I have to take Prilosec so I don't get this choking deal. So, psychotropic drugs, there are side effects to that as well, and I think even if you look at the physician's desk reference and you'll say, okay, well, if I'm gonna give my kids certain kinds of drugs for attention deficit, how long have those drugs been studied?

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Oh, this particular thing, it says they've had studies for six weeks on children, but we don't know what the long -term effects are.

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That kind of thing, I just think you need to know. I think you need to know so you can make an informed decision.

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And what I'm really against is I'm against, well, I'm against sin,

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I'm against all kinds of that stuff, but I'm against laziness. You know, I'm lazy, you're lazy, we struggle at times with laziness.

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And so, okay, here's an easy way out, and it makes me feel better, I can easily deal with it.

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Now, again, I have to just say it one more time, I don't think psychotropic drugs in every situation are always wrong, it's not some categorical thing.

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People, for different reasons, can take them, and some I could probably say, but then would touch too close to home for certain people who would listen, and so I don't even need to say it.

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I just do know that there are other spiritual issues along with this.

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If you're taking a psychotropic drug to get yourself to feel better, and we're not talking about thyroid, and we're not talking about measurable levels of things, you take a blood test so we know exactly, urine tests so we know exactly, then

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I think there's some kind of spiritual issue involved. So even if you're taking drugs,

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I think you need to know there's spiritual issues involved, or if you say, you know, I'm trying not to, what are the spiritual issues involved?

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And the thing is, when you do things according to the Bible, you have hope, right? That's one of the things they teach you in biblical counseling, is to have hope.

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And so I just basically didn't wanna get into all this stuff although I'm finding myself wrapped in, it's this black hole effect.

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The Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference, a whole chapter on psychiatric drugs, psychotropic drugs, and are they needed?

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And so he's got like a section here, might as well just do the whole show on this, I guess, contrast between medicine and psychiatry.

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In medicine, Smith says, definite organic causes are found for a number of behavior problems.

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So he talks about underactive or non -functional thyroid produces behavior resembling depression.

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When it's overactive, it may produce nervousness, tremors, anxiety, similar to one who has been labeled as having a psychoneurotic disorder.

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And so fascinating, it says here, according to Dr.

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Smith, numerous medications can produce abnormal behavior. An article in a medical magazine for family physicians listed 44 different medications capable of producing abnormal behavior.

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Isn't that interesting? So you're taking different medicines for other things. I don't know, this was an older article, for blood pressure or something else.

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And then you have these other feelings. And so I think this is very, you would find

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Dr. Smith to be kind and nice and nobody's trying to whack anybody. But if you are on a bunch of drugs, if you are on psychotropic drugs and you could get off them,

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I think you probably would want to, wouldn't you? So nobody's getting kicked out of the church.

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Nobody's ostracizing people. Every Christian is carried away by their own lust.

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We all have our own bents. And so he's got a section in here about the difference between medical and psychiatric diagnoses, contrasted by the diagram.

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Medicine disease with a forward arrow pointing to symptoms or behavior. That's how a, like your internal medicine guy would be, or gal, you have a disease, you have medicine and then it manifests itself in behavior.

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Here in the psychiatric world, Dr. Smith says you have behavior or symptoms, and then you have an arrow, psychiatry and theory.

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In other words, the disease determines the symptoms in regular medicine.

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But in psychiatry, Smith says, is movement is in the opposite direction. Such changes are not found in the body.

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They are no proven disease conditions in the body that produce the symptoms. There's no proof of damage to the body's physical tissues.

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Psychiatric diagnosis are based on behavioral abnormalities. Now on No Compromise Radio, I am a doctor, but it's doctor of ministry and expository preaching, not a regular doctor.

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And I've done some shows before on drugs like this and psychotropic things and mental illness.

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Is that different than your mind? Is your mind different than your brain? And I've got probably out of all the things that I've done in No Compromise Radio's history, maybe this is the most heated emails

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I would receive. Hey, I'm a nurse. You don't know what you're talking about. This one guy said, stick to what you know.

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Hey, that's actually good advice though. I thank you for that. I thanked him for that. Did I? Thank you for that.

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But I'm not, am I giving you my opinion now? Yes, this is in my opinion. But I'm trying to read from this doctor.

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This is his expertise. This is what he does for a living. And he's not the only one who is saying certain things like this.

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Why do we use drugs in counseling? Does it affect thinking? Does it affect behavior?

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Does it affect your circumstances? Does it affect your feelings? What happens when you have a problem and then you have an unbiblical response and then you get the feelings commensurate with said unbiblical response and then you don't function as well.

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Where does medication come in there? Does medication mask the proper response?

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Are drugs needed? If they are not needed, why do we use them?

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So I would suggest you get the book and read it because it's going to at least make you think through, oh, yes, that's true.

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I understand that. And this is what I've always thought. I just couldn't articulate it. Or the opposite.

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When you read accounts of studies in various media sources, look for statements that demonstrate proof,

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Dr. Smith says. What you will always find when there is no firm cause and effect are statements like, it is believed, it is thought, this study suggests, further study is needed.

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Others in the field dispute the findings and so on. To me, that's just so fascinating.

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It's so fascinating that we, I have a man like this, Dr. Smith, and all of a sudden he says something like that.

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So the next time you read it, oh, it is believed, it is thought. Statements like these are far from proofs.

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So do not accept the data presented as proof. Are there ever times when psychotropic medication should be given or is allowed, even if it is not recommended?

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That's a question he lists here. The approach in his answer is, for a believer, can be summarized as follows.

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If the believer, excuse me, if the counselee is a believer and is willing to follow biblical principles, there is no reason to use any of these medications.

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The Bible has superior answers. If the believer refuses to follow biblical principles, behaves bizarrely, or is irresponsible, he needs to be given the choice of following biblical principles or using the world's philosophy of dealing with problems.

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He makes the choice for secular treatment by failing to follow the biblical principles presented in counseling.

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When this failure, with this failure, he is communicating to his family his choice of secular methods.

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If the counselee is an unbeliever, evangelize him, et cetera. So there's so much more on here

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I could read. I know automatically now you're thinking this is secular.

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What do you mean secular? I go to a Christian counselor, I go to a Christian psychiatric person and they're helping me.

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So you have to get the book and read it. I didn't get any money for plugging the book or anything like that.

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I just think it's an issue that we've pretty much heard only one side of, right? That's the side we've heard of.

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And if I were, well, if I were on No Compromise Radio, I'd probably say something like, follow the money, follow the money.

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Well, you say, but it does help me. Okay, so if it helps you, you're glad for the help, you're glad for the feelings that are better.

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What does the Bible say about feelings? Aren't I trying to help you as well? If you're really right, why would you get so mad at me?

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Some people get so mad at me and they're thinking, you know what, they're right and I'm wrong, so why mad? When I read something, when

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I watch something, when I hear something and I think, you know what? They're wrong. Here's what

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I usually say on good days, of course, walking in the spirit days. Lord, thank you for letting me see what the real truth is.

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I wouldn't come to these ideas on my own. It's the power of the Holy Spirit. It's the word of God.

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It's my teachers, it's my background, it's my education. All these things you gave me. I was passive, you were active.

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I received them as a gift. You gave me Christ Jesus, your son. Romans 8, verse 32, won't you give me every other thing?

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I know this to be true by your good grace. But the flip side is, do you know what?

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Mad, I'm gonna be mad at you for somehow saying these things. Don't you wanna know? Even if you feel not as good because you're thinking, maybe my psychotropic drugs don't ultimately help me.

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You know, I've been on it for 20 years and I'm still the same. Is there another way? But the other way maybe is it's like, you know, you got the dislocated elbow and you gotta go in.

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It's gonna hurt before it feels better. And you just like, you know, you put your fingers in your ears and it's like, la, la, la, la, la, la,

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I don't wanna know. But if you think you know the truth, then why, I'm not harming you.

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I'm not saying stop your drugs. I'm not saying throw them away. I'm not saying any of that stuff. Here's what I could say.

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In my opinion, you should go to your doctor if you're a Christian and you're growing in grace and sanctified and maturing.

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And of course all Christians are sanctified, but you're, you know, being sanctified progressively. You should say to your doctor, you know, doc,

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I've been on this, you give me one gram a day and you think I could taper off to about a half a gram.

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I'm functioning, I'm doing well, got a raise, you know, loving my kids, da, da, da, da, da. What do you think?

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And he'd probably say, yeah, give it a try. Why don't we go down a little bit slower because of the way this stays in the fat systems or it's water soluble instead.

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And so here's what I suggest. You know, only taper down 10 % a week for the next six weeks.

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Let's see how you're doing. Check in with me with two weeks, something like that. See, you could do that. Why am I your enemy for telling you what

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I think is the truth? Listen to what Dr. Smith says on page 96 of his book that I think you should get, The Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference, Robert Smith, MD.

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I think he's just a plain old doctor like an internal medicine guy.

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I could be wrong. A nervous breakdown is not a physical problem. It is called a psychosis by the secular community.

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From a biblical perspective, this means that the person has encountered great difficulties in life and rather than handling them biblically, out of ignorance or by choice, he has attempted to run from them by means of the bizarre behavior that is described by the nervous breakdown label.

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It is not a mental illness. Since the mind is immaterial and thus cannot get sick like the material body.

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Very, very fascinating. The mind isn't the brain and the brain could get sick.

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You could get a tumor, right? You could have a diabetes issue. You could have a glandular issue.

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You could have a thyroid issue. Isn't thyroid a gland? Yes, it is. But what about your mind?

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And so when you're supposed to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, if something's wrong with your mind and your brain is okay, it doesn't have one of those problems organically that could be measured with empirical data, then what does that say?

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What does it say about our thinking, about our acting, about our sanctification and loving

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God with the heart, soul, mind, and strength and the renewing of your mind?

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It is not a mental illness, nervous breakdown, since the mind is immaterial and thus cannot get sick like the material body.

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It means organically sick. There can be sin sickness and then we have the hope for all sin sickness found in the person and work of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Here's what his chapter, our psychotropic drugs needed. Here's how his chapter ends, okay?

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So you're not gonna get too mad at me. Send all hate mail to Robert Smith, please. By the way,

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I think this is similar to the stuff that you'd hear from the NANC Conference, Noothetic Counseling Conference, from CCEF to a large degree.

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It says here, some of the psychotropic medications have a limited use for medical conditions.

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The dosages used for those conditions, these conditions are significantly lower than those used in psychotherapy.

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In the case of bed wetting, the antidepressants seem to have an antispasm effect on the bladder and reduce the involuntary emptying of the bladder at night.

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Another use of antidepressants is, in low doses, as a pain medicine for some rheumatic conditions.

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In both of these situations, the medicines or medications used are ones that were developed before those such as Prozac.

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So that's his last chapter. And so from more of an anecdotal perspective, a personal perspective, an experience perspective, see how that's not up to the same par of Scripture or anything else of that nature.

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What else is of the same nature of Scripture? It's hard to try to talk theologically correct.

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You gotta correct yourself all the time to stay correct. I, before I took

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Prilosec five, six days a week, I had some esophagus problems because of reflux.

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I already have smaller kind of esophageal opening or whatever they call it.

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And so I'd choke on food. I do choke on food, but then some of the inflammation of the esophagus makes it even worse.

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Choke on all kinds of stuff, driven myself to the ER. So one particular day, my wife and kids, and my wife was out of town and I was cooking and I overcooked the chicken and I ate some and drank some dry chicken.

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By the way, those stupid turkey inhaling, thin sliced turkey, turkey shots or whatever they're doing is just about as bad as it gets.

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It makes me panic thinking they're gonna choke and die. And one will certainly soon, sadly.

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And so anyway, I drove down to the emergency room and the air isn't cut off yet, but about every three minutes, it's about ready to, because so much saliva is accumulating.

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And I check myself in and they quickly rush me to the room, but they don't have any GI people. It's at nighttime.

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I need a GI push through is what I need. And there's nobody around. And so they're just trying to monitor me. And I think

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I probably said before on No Compromise Radio, but like every three minutes, you feel like you're gonna die and you could.

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And so I said, can I have something to relax me? I said, how about some Ativan? And she said,

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I'll go check. And so I can't swallow the pill, but they could give me a little bolus in the arm and give me an

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IV. I've already been hooked up to an IV. And so she came over, I've got chicken in my throat.

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It won't go down. It's just stuck. All the inflammation, everything else. Every three minutes, I'm spitting all the saliva up thinking

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I'm gonna die, trying to just maintain. If I do die, I do die. I had enough sense to drop off the

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DVDs from the library on the way to the hospital to get that done. Don't wanna leave my wife with a $2 overcharge bill.

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And they gave me that IV and I instantly felt better. I thought, you know what?

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Why am I even here? Problem is I still had the chicken. And so I had feelings that would kind of mask the real problem.

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And so I think I'm only your friend if you do have an anxiety problem and you're taking medicine to kind of combat that.

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What's the opposite of anxiety, my friend? It's trust. And I wanna encourage you to trust in the Lord. And if you do, and if you read

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Matthew 6 about not being anxious and trusting this great God, Jesus Christ, I think there's hope for you.

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And I think you should work with your doctor and work with your pastor to see how you can work on what does the

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Bible say about hope? And my last comment is this. If you're a Christian who doesn't, who isn't on drugs, psychiatric drugs, how do you treat those who are?

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With patience, with love, with grace, and with kindness, and you love them as you would love yourself.

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Why? Because that's the Christian call on No Compromise Radio. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible -teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE in staff or management.