#87Understanding Sin — Where It Came From, What It Means, and What Christians Do With It + Dr. Hans Madueme

Are we born sinful, or when did sin enter the world? And do we have to believe in that original sin with Adam and Eve?

We are well equipped to go into it with an expert today. I am joined by Dr. Hans Medweme. Jesus is the answer.

What is the question? Jesus came because we have a problem, and that problem is what

Christians, we talk about as the doctrine of sin. Do you believe we were doomed from the start? I do.

We're doomed from the start because of a kind of connection that we all have to Adam.

Hello, hello.

Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the

Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding

God easier. These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion.

Now, I'm sharing these recorded conversations with you. On this podcast, we talk about the facts, the history, and the translations to make the

Bible make sense so we can get to know God our creator better. Hi, it's

Cass. I wanted to first start off by saying thank you for listening. I created this because I could not find it anywhere else on the internet, and it takes a very small team and a large upfront investment to make it all possible.

I really hope that you find it valuable. I would never expect anything from my listeners, and I'm always gonna do my best to first outsource support from brands.

However, if you do find value in this episode, I invite you to contribute an amount equal to the value that you have received, either through a one -time or a monthly donation linked in the show notes below.

I understand that not everyone, though, can donate monetarily, so I ask that if you love

Biblically Speaking and you cannot donate, please show your support by subscribing to this channel wherever you're listening so that it tells the hosting platform to show

Biblically Speaking to more curious and confused Christians. In exchange for the support, I personally promise to you to always create the highest quality production possible.

Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. I'm your host,

Cassian Bellino. Today, we're gonna talk about sin. This is gonna be a conversation if you're an early

Christian, a vetted Christian, a Sunday school Christian, and sin just doesn't make sense to you.

You know, are we born sinful? Or when did sin enter the world? And do we have to believe in that original sin with Adam and Eve and the apple and the snake?

And what happens if you get baptized and then you keep sinning? And how is Jesus sinless if he was fully human?

All of these are questions we're going to dive into today. And I am, we are well -equipped to go into it with an expert today.

I am joined by Dr. Hans Medweme. You are a professor of theological studies at Covenant College at Lookout Mountain in Georgia.

You were born in Sweden, but you grew up in Nigeria and Austria, and you originally trained as a medical doctor and you completed your residency in internal medicine at the

Mayo Clinic before you shifted your focus to theology, and you received your master in divinity and then completed your

PhD from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I am so grateful to have you here to join us today.

Dr. Medweme, welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks, Cassian. Really glad to be here. Look forward to our conversation.

Yeah, so sin. I mean, you've studied the body, you studied the

Bible. What is it about sin that has hooked you in? I think it's partly my medical background.

You were just mentioning that in a previous life I was in medicine and just wrestling with questions of who are we?

Why do we do the things we do? And the doctrine of sin is something that I'm caught up in. I wrestle with it myself as I seek to follow

Christ. So I think it's always been something that's been interesting to me, and in particular, and we might get into this later, but in particular, just ways in which the physicality of our bodies and scientific issues, ways in which that impinges on sin and raises questions for us as believers.

We're just seeking to understand ourselves from a biblical perspective. So all of that has been fascinating to me.

And I think it's kind of why I've continued to sort of think about and wrestle with sin and what it means and how we should think about it and ultimately for the purpose of, you know, drawing us closer to the

Lord. That's amazing. Yeah, I think sin is one of those elusive concepts of like we all fall short and we kind of take it for granted of how much it impacts us.

So when you think about sin and you think about the doctrine of sin, there might be somebody listening that's like, yeah, it's part of Christianity.

What more is there to understand? So how would you explain it simply? I think we all know about Jesus, right?

Jesus came and he died for us. He atoned for our sins. Our father sent his son so that we might be, our sins might be forgiven and we might be reconciled to him.

And so in some ways, it's like, if Jesus is the answer, what is the question, right?

And I would say that Jesus came because we have a problem and that problem is what

Christians, we talk about as the doctrine of sin. And so I think in some ways, maybe what

I would say is if you really want to appreciate the glory and the wonder of salvation and what

God has done for us, the flip side of that is just to realize our predicament and what exactly is our problem and how bad is our problem.

And conversely, if I have a very sort of trivial or superficial understanding of sin, and maybe

I'm thinking, ah, it's not a big deal. Maybe I make a mistake every now and then, but it's not a big deal.

Then I'm not gonna see my understanding of what's so remarkable, what's so astonishing about the good news is gonna be lessened.

So I think there's just a, understanding sin is really helpful to understand what

God has done for us, what God has done to draw us back to himself. Yeah, I love that.

I had no idea what I was really looking for when I asked that question, but I love how you framed that, of if Jesus is the answer, what's the question?

And it kind of answers like, what's the point of all this? Well, the point is that there is sin. And so that's why he's here.

That's what he's here to save us from. So just understanding it, like for me, sin is like, you know,

I've got temptations, but there's also this element of like spiritual warfare, but then there's also this world that we were born into.

And I had this conversation a long time ago with Dr. Josh. Oh my gosh,

I always drop people's names, but I remember Dr. Josh, Waltman, sorry. And he said, there's three elements to spiritual warfare.

It's our innate flesh, the fallen world, and spiritual warfare. So where would you say that sin just is within all of that?

It's in nature, it's in guilt, it's in corruption, but it's also within ourselves. It's also in the OG beginning of the

Bible. Or is it all the above? Yeah, I think

I would say all the above. At least most of what you just mentioned is sort of relevant.

I mean, when we're talking about sin, we usually focus on the ways in which we are affected by sin.

So it tends to be the indwelling sin or moral corruption that is in our hearts.

And that moral corruption, which we sometimes call original sin, that's the state that I'm in.

That's the condition that I'm in. And because of that, I commit sinful acts. I have sinful thoughts or I say sinful things or I have sinful desires and I do commit sinful acts.

So those all flow out of my condition. And so usually when we're talking about doctrine of sin, that's where the focus is.

Now, the powers of darkness and the devil, I mean, that's very important. All the way back to Genesis three, when the first sin was committed, there was a serpent in the garden.

And I think Christians are right to see that the devil is behind that serpent.

And so there is the first sin involved, the temptation of the demonic or satanic temptation.

So temptation from outside powers is relevant to sin.

However, the only thing I would say is, I don't think any of us are gonna be able to stand before Jesus at the judgment.

And Jesus is gonna be like, here's a long list of ways that you fell short. And then my response is gonna be, well, the devil made me do it.

I don't think that's gonna be a very compelling answer. So yes, there's temptation from the outside, but ultimately we are responsible for our sin.

And just as Eve and Adam were held responsible after they disobeyed

God. So, but anyway, all that to say, yes, it's sort of a rich multi -layered kind of thing that's happening when we're talking about sin.

But I think the focus is really our own hearts and how, and it's, you know, in the

Bible, sin is usually a very theocentric thing. So it's how we are related to God. And sin, it's kind of really a question of what sin does or how it ruptures our relationship with our

God and maker. Yeah, I mean, let's kind of press in on that, of how we should be focusing on sin, because it seems like it's a way that we hold each other accountable, even though it's something that's so internal.

Like, I just think of all the protests of like, well, you do that thing and I don't do that thing. So you're worse than me, whatever my name, but at the end of the day,

I go to God and I say, gosh, God, I lied and I stole and I coveted or whatever it was. And so we almost have this interpersonal relationship with sin of how we judge each other.

We have this internal struggle with sin. And yet what is the answer here?

Because, you know, devil's just like dancing on our graves, super happy that we're falling short.

And, you know, but what do we do with that? Because it feels like we're held to the standard that no one can upkeep. We're trying to make ourselves feel better by saying, well, at least

I'm a little bit higher towards God's standard than you because I don't do that sin and you do. And yet we were born into this world with sin.

You know, we were doomed from the start. Do you believe that? Do you believe we were doomed from the start?

Or do you think we've fallen into it? I do. And, you know, and actually this actually gets back to, if people are interested, in church history, there's a big debate between Augustine and a guy called

Pelagius. And Augustine, he sort of, he would have held what we see as a traditional view of sin, which is that all of us come into this world, as you said, doomed from the start.

We're doomed from the start because of a kind of connection that we all have to Adam.

And because Adam messed up, then we all come into this world messed up. And Pelagius did not like that for different reasons.

You know, he was a Christian, but he just, he felt that it was,

I think he wanted to emphasize free will and that we have some agency and freedom. And he didn't think that if you say we're coming to this world already corrupt, he thought that that was removing responsibility, right?

So he actually thought we come into this world like Adam and Eve were before they fell.

And then basically what happens is that most of us end up copying the sins of other people.

But he said, there are some people who actually are sinless in this life. So he,

I mean, I think he thought that Job was sinless, Enoch, I think John.

He mentioned a number of people in the Bible that he thought lived their whole lives without sin, but most of us end up sinning.

But he didn't think that was because we all come in doomed from the start. He just thought we come in with a blank slate and then we just sort of, unfortunately copy the sins of other people and they copied the sins of other people all the way back to Adam.

And Augustine just said, that's a very, like, you know, in that debate, Augustine just said that that's just a misunderstanding.

And I think Augustine, I think in the end, Augustine is right. I think we all, all of us come into this world doomed from the start.

You know, David in, I think it was Psalm 51. I mean, Psalm 51, five. I mean, he says like, from the time my mother conceived me,

I was sin, iniquity was in me. I'm a sinner from birth.

And that's the, that's the problem. That's the problem that we all face.

You know, I joke with my, you know, as you said, I'm a professor. I joke with my students when we, when

I teach the doctrine of original sin and I kind of lay it out. I then say to the students, look, all right, if some of you are doubting what

I'm saying and you're just sort of skeptical about this doctrine, then I just say, like, just wait till you get married.

Your spouse is gonna let you know all your problems, but then if that doesn't work, just start having kids.

And then you'll see, like, no one has to teach them what sin is, or they just come by it, you know, by nature.

And so I think Augustine was, in the debate between Augustine and Pelagius, on this point,

Augustine was right. We do come in this world already bent. And that's when, and that's why we need the gospel.

That's why we need Jesus, because it's only, because we don't have the power in ourselves to rectify this situation.

But thanks be to God, Jesus Christ, he has lived a sinless life. He was without sin in a way that none of us were.

And so when I put my trust in him, then I received his righteousness. And that's really the only remedy that can cure this disease that all of us come into this world with, using disease metaphorically, obviously.

Of course, of course. You had two things that you said that really stuck out to me. And I feel like many

Christians kind of wrestle with that. When I say many, I mean like me, and then, you know, we've got many people. But it's hard to imagine a child being sinful, you know, something conceived with sin.

It's hard to imagine, like, already you're born and fresh out the womb, already bent towards sin.

And I understand there's human nature. Once we have that choice, we're inclined to not be perfect.

We will fall short. I understand that. I also understand that, you know, if God was fair, you know,

Jesus wouldn't have been on the cross and we would have, you know? I understand that there is no good person that measures up to the standard of Jesus.

However, for like the early Christians, for people that are in church, it's like, but children aren't sinful, you know?

They're innocent. But I think you used a word there at the end where you said we're bent towards sin.

And I think that that maybe is that innate sinful nature that I can completely agree with you, that even if your child, no actions, no choices, no sins have been made, you're inclined that you're about to simply because we're born bent towards it.

Right. And that, I mean, no, that's helpful. And I think that's what, you know,

Christians should try to understand. And if you think of sin as conscious misdeeds or consciously lying or consciously stealing and so on, if, and those are sins, by the way, but if that's, if you have a narrow view of sin that includes things like that, then an infant, it would be, it would seem like infants are sinless because an infant developmentally can't lie and can't steal, et cetera.

So you would have a view of infants as sinless. Now, I think an infant compared to an adult is relatively innocent, but sin, when we're talking about sin, it's not just the acts and it's not just the words.

It's not even just our thoughts. It's kind of a state or condition that I'm in.

So a baby is in the state or condition of original sin, even if he or she is not yet able to express that, right?

So, and, you know, some of the listeners may have heard a sermon where the pastor has this like pithy saying, it's like, we're not sinners because we sin.

We sin because we're sinners, right? So an infant or even someone who is born with some cognitive disability, you know, tragically, and so they're not able to talk or they're not able to do anything, they still have that state or condition of original sin.

And if they had that capacity, it would express itself in thoughts and words and deeds.

And with the baby, as the baby develops, cognitively, intellectually, and so on, then that inner nature, that state or condition then expresses itself that way.

So I think once you realize that sin is deeper than just the outward expressions, then you can see why a very cute and adorable baby is still within that group of humanity we call sinners.

Yeah, I can, so it's almost like we haven't sinned yet, but we will because that's just on the road that we're on.

But how do we overcome that guilt of inevitable falling short?

Like, how do we, like, that is a burden to bear of like, I will never be perfect.

I will always miss the mark. I mean, for somebody that holds themselves to a high standard or strives for perfection or just simply wants to be a good person, that's a hard truth to swallow.

Right. Well, I mean, you know, on one level, I think it's a sense of being a realism, just kind of recognizing, there's something about recognizing that about myself, that I have this moral fragility.

I, you know, even as hard as I try, I'm never gonna be free, completely free from sin.

And there's certain ways in which I struggle. There's certain sins that I struggle with. And if I'm a perfectionist,

I guess I could be discouraging, but what I would say is, one, it makes us more dependent on God.

It makes us more dependent on the work of his spirit. It brings us, it draws us to the

Lord in repentance. You know, it was Martin Luther who said that the, you know, the

Christian life is a life of daily repentance. And so repenting of particular sins, repenting of sort of my tendency to be impatient or to have outbursts of anger or to be envious towards my brother or my sister, any of these things, like just recognizing that about myself, like God knows that.

And so that's an opportunity for me to bring that part, as much as I'm ashamed of that,

I have shame, I feel shame about those feelings, but to bring it to the Lord. And the Lord knows about it anyway.

Bring it to the Lord, confess those sins and ask him to sort of help me and to heal me and to make me more like his son,

Jesus. I think that whole dynamic is actually one of the important ways in which we grow, in which we grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ. So I think, I understand your question. I mean,

I realize that there can be shame and we feel demoralized and so on, but it's just the reality, but it's that reality can drive us to Christ.

And it's that reality that can drive us to repentance. And that's the means by which the father conforms us to the image of his son.

Running my own podcast, I'm always moving too fast. I'm finding guests, I'm editing episodes,

I'm creating reels or guesting on other shows. Not to mention, I just live in a world that moves fast.

Notifications, trends, endless to -do lists. You know what feels like a blessing in all that? Slowing down. I'd love nothing more than a moment to pause, be present and choose something timeless.

That's exactly what Dwell Label is all about. When I first discovered Dwell Label, it wasn't just about the clothes.

It was about a mindset, thoughtful, intentional fashion that doesn't scream for attention, but instead invites you to slow down.

Their pieces are modern takes on classic styles, made to last, not just for the season, but for years. I love that I can throw on a

Dwell Label outfit for editing in a coffee shop, Bible studies, or looking professional in an interview.

It always feels right. Comfortable, effortless, elevated. And here's the best part. Dwell Label does not just talk about rest.

They live it. Their website literally doesn't work on Sundays because they believe in pausing, in dwelling on what matters most.

So if you're looking for high quality, timeless fashion that aligns with a lifestyle of intention and presence,

I can't recommend Dwell Label enough. Shop Dwell Label with the link in the show notes and use my code

VIVSPEAK15, V -I -V -S -P -E -A -K 15 for an exclusive discount at checkout.

Take a breath, slow down, and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. Okay. Yeah, I know that what to sin is the same root word of like to miss, to miss the mark, similar to like shooting a bow and arrow and you miss the bullseye.

It doesn't feel that way though. It feels like even, like that to me seems lighthearted and like,

I tried, but I failed and I'll try again. In the grand scheme of like Christianity, to sin feels like the ultimate thing that you could do to hurt

Jesus. To sin is to do the complete opposite of what he asks. That when we have free will, we choose the wrong thing.

Right. How do we balance that like lighthearted translation of like, it just means to miss, which like to me, it's like, then try again because we always fall short.

That has gentleness in it. That has kindness, that has understanding. Right. And then to sin in like modern terms is like,

I killed a man. Like, you know, like it just seems so much more intense. It seems like you're the worst person ever. Is there, are we doing it correctly and we should be holding it with this much weight or should we give ourselves a break?

Right. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I wonder if different people would sort of, in some ways that we have different reactions to descriptions of sin, you know, cause you said missing the mark is lightheartedness.

I don't know that everyone would feel that way, but you know, but still I get your point that some ways of thinking about sin seem to be much more serious and dire than others.

And actually in scripture, there are many different ways that the Bible talks about sin.

You're right, missing the mark is one of them. Right. There is guilt. There is the idea of corruption.

There's many ways the Bible talks about sin. And I think what that shows us is that sin is,

I mean, it's this reality that just has, there's just many facets to it, right? And there's many ways of talking about it.

But in the end, in terms of giving ourselves a break, yeah, it depends.

Again, this, you know, I think where the pastor in me just kind of, it sort of depends on who the person is.

Right? So I might be talking to someone or I might know this brother or sister in Christ.

And I know that this person actually, they lean towards what we call, maybe we'll just call it antinomian or they lean towards something like a cheap grace.

And that's a Christian who's like, you know what? God's job is to forgive us.

He's up in heaven. That's what he does. It doesn't really matter how I live my life. It doesn't matter what I say or what

I do, what I watch on the screen or whatever. He's gonna forgive me. Now, if I know that that person has that kind of attitude or that view of the

Christian life, then I'm probably, pastorally, I'm gonna want them to really see what is serious about sin.

I want them to get the gravity of that. I want them to feel like, no, like God, you can grieve the

Holy Spirit, my friend. This is like a serious thing. Don't God care. Like the book of James says, faith without works is dead.

And you've got a view of the Christian life where the works don't matter. But James says they do matter in the sense that that's like evidence of saving faith.

So I'm gonna sort of come heavy that way because I feel like that's what that person needs to hear.

However, there's other Christians who are, they are not there at all. They're very conscious about sin, about their sins.

In fact, they tend to be maybe very introspective, overly introspective. And I kind of see how

I fall short every day. And so that kind of Christian, then, which

I'm wondering if that's where your question is coming from, then if I'm counseling that person,

I'm not gonna wanna, I don't wanna sort of talk about the seriousness of sin and how heavy it is because that's what he or she is doing every day.

That's part of the problem. And I probably wanna, I want them to look to, I wanna sort of find a way to help them.

Don't be looking inside yourself, navel -gazing and so self -flagellating all the time, but look outside of yourself to Christ and look to Christ and what he has done for you.

And also kind of remember the gospel, which is like, there's nothing you can do that can justify you before the

Lord. Like you can't do anything so that God will be more favorably disposed towards you.

You're just not able to do that. Like it doesn't matter how holy you are, how godly you are, you can't measure up.

And once you realize that, you realize that then look to Jesus because Jesus is the one who is able to do that.

Jesus is the one who lived a fully righteous life and he died and atoned for your sins.

Cling to him. And so I think for someone like that, I think helping them realize it's not about me in any way.

So look to Christ. By the way, Lutherans tend to be really good at this. Just the Lutheran tradition is less, the

Puritans maybe kind of had a, to a fault where maybe more introspective and tended to do a little bit of that navel gazing kind of stuff.

Whereas the Lutheran tradition is sort of Christ. Christ is God's perfect righteousness.

And he was able to live the life that we weren't able to.

So I think maybe Jesus, reminding them by Jesus and that nothing that you can do is gonna make you right with God, but it's what

Jesus did. And maybe that sort of shift in focus could help.

Yeah, that does help. And I think that you touched on a lot of things of like Jesus really meets us where we're at, that there's nothing we can do that Jesus already, like that he hasn't already done.

But he also kind of looks at our heart posture of how do we approach sin of like, well, he already died, so I might as well send it up, versus gosh,

I keep falling short and that really does convict me. I think just like one of the biggest things you're doing for me right now,

Dr. Medweme, is kind of showing that there isn't a legalistic view of faith, because I think it's hard as a

Christian, if you don't understand that God is willing to look at our heart posture, if you don't understand that God is willing to meet us where we're at, to point back to Jesus, you read scripture and you see how

God cursed Ham back in Genesis nine. And you say, you did this horrible thing to Noah, I'm gonna curse the

Canaanites. But then you look at God didn't do that to David. Right. You know, he elevated him quite high, you know, talks well of him, you know, in the chapters that follow.

Right. And so it's almost like, okay, so does God just play favorites? Or is it kind of now that we look at this more closely, he was looking at the heart posture of Ham versus the heart posture of David?

Right. No, I think you've put it really well. I do think God sees the heart in a way, often one of the themes in scripture is that we tend to look at the outside, we tend to sort of focus on what's visible on the outside, but then it's good, but God sees what's on the inside and he sees the heart.

So I do think that's key. I wanna take a minute and say thank you to the recording service that has made this podcast possible,

Riverside. When I started my podcast, I had literally no idea what I was doing. And I just wanted a single way to record, edit and share content without wasting time on different platforms.

Then a friend suggested Riverside to me and I'll tell you what, it was literally an answer to prayer.

With just one login, I can record my interviews with scholars, clip interview moments into Reels for Instagram and TikTok and post directly onto my

RSS feed and Spotify, all without the extra downloads, platforms, all of it. So for the curious and confused people like me, the best part is that the crew at Riverside actually listens to their users when they need help.

I wanted an editing preset to save time on creating Reel templates and they listened. They literally implemented a new feature.

And since using Riverside, my social clips have reached over a million people each month and I haven't even unlocked all the features yet.

Live streaming is gonna be next. So if you're considering starting a podcast or you just need to edit at a pro level for content or interviews,

I cannot recommend Riverside enough. If this is helpful for you, I ask that you click the affiliate link

I provided in the show notes description. It costs nothing extra to you and it gives a small kickback to me, which helps the channel stay alive.

Thank you so much. Now back to the show. Yeah, I think, okay, that definitely helps because I think just like personally, you want to be sinless, but you feel like falling short.

Like one of the things that I really struggled with recently is about a year ago, I got rebaptized as an adult.

I was baptized Orthodox as a kid. And then, you know, this podcast has changed my life.

And so I'm like, you know what? Like my life is changed and I want publicly people to know that. And the day that I got baptized, like the

Holy Spirit yanked me up. I did not plan on it. I was wearing my church dress. Like I did not plan on getting baptized that day, but I did.

And it was one of the best days of my life. I knew that I wanted to, but I was like, listen,

I want to get baptized. And like, this was before it even happened, but I know I'm gonna sin afterwards. And I really struggled with that where I sought a lot of counsel.

Like, hey, you got baptized. How did you approach that sin that like you've been pretty public about? You're probably gonna do it again, not because, like, because we're human, you know, not in a shameful kind of way.

I know I have sins and I did fall short. You know, I got baptized a year ago and then I sinned a whole bunch because I'm human and I fell short and I do feel convicted about those sins.

But it feels like I lived this life. I wiped it clean.

I had a clean slate and then I just dirtied it again. And I knew I would dirty it again. How could a

God possibly be like, you're still gonna get into heaven because you got baptized in 2025? You know, like that is hard.

So what, help me there. What do I do with that? I mean, you know, part of it is, I mean, part of just the story you're telling, which thanks for sharing that.

I mean, part of it is even a theology of baptism. Does baptism, does baptism mean, do we have a view of baptism that it sort of cleans us of all our sins so that when

I'm baptized, I'm now sort of this, you know, I'm completely sinless and then any other sins

I commit, you know. I mean, it's like, what's happening in baptism? There's that question. But I would also say,

I would also say, you know, there's, I think it's 1 John.

I mean, John is clear that actually, if you say that you're without sin, if anyone makes that claim, you're deceiving yourself because that's just, you're lying, right?

Because there is no one who is gonna be without sin. So, I mean, that's a pretty clear, so that's a pretty clear truth in scripture.

So I think we're gonna have to balance a few things. One is to recognize we're always going to sin.

In this life, we're always gonna sin because of original sin. Because I have this condition,

I'm always gonna sin. So that's the first thing. But then the second thing is, if I'm a

Christian, I'm going to be bearing fruit. You know, even that I'm gonna,

I mentioned James, I'm gonna be producing works that are in keeping with repentance. Now we've gotta be careful there, right?

Because that's gonna look different. You know, if I'm someone, I might be someone who came to faith when

I was 19 or 20, and it was my second year of college. And probably if I was genuinely converted, then just sort of cold turkey.

I was no longer partying. I wasn't getting drunk like Friday, Saturday, and hungover on Sunday.

I just quit because I realized I'm a Christian now. So sometimes the way sanctification looks, like we can stop sinning just like that and never do it again.

But that's, I would say, relatively unusual. I think what we usually see is that the

Christian life is, we're fighting with sin and we're bearing fruit, but it can be very incremental.

And sometimes there can be ups and downs. And sometimes, you know, you might have a believer who's been, someone who's been a

Christian 50 years, and he's in his 70s or in his 80s. And he will sort of testify, you know what?

There are some days that the sin, that I feel that sin stronger than I've ever felt it before.

And I actually, I've heard someone, I remember hearing someone say something like that. And, you know, I was younger and I was a little bit discouraged.

I thought, wait, hang on. I thought by the time I'm 70 or 80, I've defeated all these sin struggles and I'm kind of coasting along ready to meet

Jesus. But the reality is, it's just a, it's an ongoing battle.

By God's grace, there's some sins that we're able to really sort of look, it's in the rear view mirror.

But there are other sins that are just almost like a constant battle. Like, and even 40 years later,

I still struggle with this. And I think that's, and I don't think that should be discouraging.

You know, I think that's just, that it's not even, I know you use a phrase because we all do.

It's not to say that I'm human and therefore that's how it is.

Because obviously Adam and Eve before they fell were without sin, they were human.

And in the new heavens and new earth, we'll be fully human, more human than we've ever been. We'll not be able to sin.

So it's not, here I'm just being technical. It's that we're fallen human beings.

And as fallen human beings, yes, we're gonna sin. But I think,

I just think what's important is that we are sensitive to conviction, to the conviction of the spirit.

And when we're convicted that we, in our devotional lives, that we do make a habit of going to the

Lord and naming those sins and repenting of them. I think that's what's key. And I think the danger is more when

I'm sinning and this is happening on a regular basis, but I'm no longer,

I'm ignoring the conviction of the Holy Spirit and I'm not bringing that to the

Lord in repentance. I think that's, I mean, that's not only a missed opportunity, but that can also, we can sort of, our consciences can become seared.

And then, and really like objectively, we're really dropping the ball in all kinds of ways.

But like, I don't recognize that. I'm no longer sensitive to that.

Again, I just go back to what Luther said. I do think just that life of repentance is one of the main ways that the

Lord is driving us to put sin to death. And yeah, like I said, it can be very incremental.

And sometimes even in the moment or in the season, we're not able to see how we're growing.

But if we were able to have a much longer view and look at our lives, we would see what

God is doing. But in the midst of it, we often don't see that. And that can be discouraging.

And that's where I think we just need to trust God's promises and that He is at work in us.

Gosh, so many good points. I think, yeah, I mean, just like the idea of ongoing sin, the things, you know,

I had a conversation with my sister a while ago and I was like, she's like, well, you're struggling with the sin.

I was like, well, I'm also like human, you know? Like sure, this is the most prominent, biggest sin that we can identify and talk about, but I'm human.

You know, I probably said like a hundred times yesterday and she's like, you sinned a hundred times yesterday, Cass? You need to check yourself.

And for me, I'm like, it's because I'm human. It's not because I'm a bad person, but like, sure, I had a lustful thought. Sure, I had an envious thought.

Sure, I said a cuss word. But yeah, this one big sin that we're talking about right now, I should probably get rid of that.

But to me, it's like, but I'm still gonna be a dirty plate by the end of tomorrow's day. So that being said, being a

Protestant, sin is very legalistic. It's very, you've got a sin, you get it out because that's bad and you need to be good.

It's on you to recognize that, be convicted, repent, and no longer. But then the

Orthodox side of it, because I've had a lot of conversations with Dr. Father, sorry,

Father Michael Butler, and he treats sin as like an illness of you struggle with this thing ongoingly and it is up to you to continue to come back to church to receive this cure.

And of course, with someone struggling with a sin, you're like, I love that response because it's not locking me out of heaven.

It's meeting me with understanding of my human condition of saying like, no, God knows this, he kind of expects it, he hopes for the best and he's there with you through it.

Whereas the Protestant is like, if you don't fix this, your salvation is up for grabs, it's under threat, it could be taken away.

I don't wanna say which one's right, but like, is there a healthier perspective here? Or is it really just doctrine?

No, there is a healthier perspective. Even what you're calling the Protestant view, I think it may be like some parts of Protestantism.

I think you're identifying some parts of Protestantism that tend to have a very legalistic view of sin, which is very much what you're describing.

I don't know, I'm not sure it's fair to say that's the Protestant view of sin per se, because even the

Orthodox view you describe, I think there are aspects of that within Protestantism.

So for instance, I'm Presbyterian, a member of the

PCA, and in the PCA, we will have, and even this view that I'm describing is not foreign to Baptists and so on, but we'll have the view that we need to come to church to receive the means of grace.

The means of grace will be the Lord's Supper, the bread and the wine, and in the

Reformed view, that's sort of very important, the spiritual nourishing of the soul, but even going to church and being with other brothers and sisters in Christ and being encouraged in your faith, and going to church and hearing the preaching of God's word and perhaps being part of Sunday school and being with other

Christians and just kind of wrestling together with what it means to follow Christ. And the spirit is at work in and through all of that.

And so it's less, so here I am, I'm a struggling sinner, but the legalistic view that you're describing, sometimes it's sort of a very much of a solo kind of John Wayne kind of approach.

I've got to somehow beat all these sins and become more righteous. But what

I like about what the Orthodox view, the way you described it is kind of a recognition that it's not so much this, that I can kind of accomplish this on my own.

I need the church. I need the sacraments or ordinances or whatever you wanna call it, but I need the sacraments.

I need other believers, right? Because God works in and through all of that for my, to draw me to Christ.

And I think that's where it's helpful to remember what the Apostle Paul, who's talking about the church as the body of Christ, and how the body has, you've got the hands and the feet, you got the ears, the head, you got all these different parts of the bodies.

Some are more prominent, some are less prominent, but we all need each other. So I think maybe that's a valuable way to even in terms of our theological pilgrimage, our walk with Christ, our growth in sanctification, our becoming more like Jesus.

We need kind of an ecclesial, we need an ecclesial element. Like the church, we need the church.

We need other Christians in our lives. We need the means of grace.

We need to hear God's word, right? We need to pray, you know, we need to pray and ask for God's help and his grace.

So, yeah, we need all of that. And so, and the two positions you contrasted, it seems like the

Orthodox view is more aligned to what

I'm saying. And the other view you were describing, it just, it does seem more individualistic and more legalistic.

And I don't, I think as a Protestant, I wanna say, I don't think that's intrinsic to Protestantism, but probably there are in North America, in America, there probably are some pretty notorious

Protestant denominations or traditions that tend to have that flavor.

Interesting, okay. Do you think, and I appreciate that check because I'm just speaking from my experience of like comparatively how

I kind of have dealt with sin in one realm of my faith versus the other. Yeah, my goal here isn't to be divisive.

It's just my experience of like, okay, I'm kind of battling with both these perspectives, but do you feel like personally, like as God does meet us where we're at and as God does want to bring us in and work with us, are there sins that there's no turning back from?

Once you commit them, God is like, you've made your decision and it's not with me, or do you think there's always room for redemption?

That's a great question. And usually this question kind of prompts the, what's the unforgivable sin?

Right, right. And you know, what is that sin? Can we commit that today? I think in general, just on that point,

I tend to think the unforgivable sin is rejecting

Christ, essentially. The gospel, in the gospel, the father gives us a way to be reconciled back to him.

The father gives us a medicine to cure this disease. And if I say, until I die, for the rest of my life, if I'm gonna reject that, then effectively

I'm committing the unforgivable sin. But yeah, just to get to the nub of your question,

I would say, in general, I think there is no,

I'm inclined to think that God is able to forgive us of any sin that we commit.

And, but yeah, so, I mean, I think, if I'm a serial murderer or whatever, imagine whatever sin, and then

I hear the gospel and I'm converted,

I see the truth of the gospel and what Jesus has done for me, there's no sin that puts me outside of God's grace.

Now, if I'm a Christian, and then I'm struggling with different sins, and maybe

I fall in some way and I've committed that particular sin, can

I kind of lose my salvation? Or, you know, can I put myself beyond God's grace? I, yeah, so now that's opening up a whole can of worms.

I don't know if we wanna pursue that route, so you can come back at me. I think what I will say is, there are two terms that we sometimes use, orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Now, orthodoxy is right belief, right doctrine, and orthopraxy is right living.

And I do think what's interesting when you read the New Testament, it's interesting, you never see

Paul or any of the apostles say something like this, you know what? If you have the wrong doctrine, if you have the wrong belief, you're gonna be outside the kingdom of heaven.

You don't actually see, you don't really see them say that. Now, I do think right doctrine is really important.

We have creeds, we have confessions, and in the early church, they were really concerned about heretics.

So right belief is really important. I just find it interesting that you don't see the apostles speak in that way.

But when it comes to orthopraxy, it is interesting that Paul does say things like, if you live like this, you cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5, when he talks about the fruit of the spirit, in that context, he talks about, he mentions homosexuality, but he mentions a bunch of other things.

And he does say, if you live like this, you can't inherit the kingdom of heaven.

And he says the same in his letter to Corinthians. And so it seems like for Paul, the way we live does matter, right?

It matters to such a degree that he's willing to say, put a long list of things. And if my life is just characterized by greed, if my life is characterized by envy, if my life is characterized by homosexuality, there's no repentance, there's no remorse, that's the way

I live my life, you're not gonna be saved, is kind of how Paul puts it. So I think, so to your question,

I do think - That is heavy. That is heavy. And I think what that, what I take away from that is that I'm PCA and we're notorious in the reform tradition, like you're the guys who kind of cross your theological

T's and you dot your theological I's, you guys are very precise and you got all your theological formulations, but do you guys emphasize living a beautiful life, like pursuing holiness, pursuing godliness, like becoming more like Jesus?

I think that, which is orthopraxy, I think that's really important. And so I think, now, obviously, it's not so important that when

I sin, then I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'm done or I've lost my salvation or I can't have a relationship with God because I looked at pornography or because I cheated on my taxes and that's such a horrible thing.

That's taking it too far. I think we need to repent, ask for the Lord's forgiveness, but remember that the basis on which you are, you have a relationship with God is what

Jesus has done for you. It's not like this particular sin is gonna cancel out your relationship with God.

However, if I'm a Christian and I'm thinking, I can, yeah, I'll just pick pornography just because that's a cliche and easy one.

I can just be doing this all day long and God's gonna forgive me and Jesus died for my sin, so I'm good to go.

And then I'll do something with a prostitute just to kind of spice it up a little bit.

And I have no conviction. I have no sense of this is wrong.

Lord, help me. Lord, help me. I feel like I'm really trying, but I can't help myself.

None of that. I'm just sort of doing it. I do think Paul would say, dude, you might need to question whether you are really united with Christ and whether you've been truly converted because the way you're living shows no evidence of fruit at all.

So, and that kind of is a good reminder that orthopraxy bearing fruit does matter.

So I hope you see the difference. So someone can actually struggle with sin and even keep falling, but be trying and be going to the

Lord in genuine repentance. I'm not trying to condemn that person.

I'm more speaking to the person who's doing all this stuff and has no sense of repentance.

And in some ways, kind of feels like this is the cheap grace I was talking about.

Just sort of feels like, oh, God's going to forgive me. It doesn't matter how I live my life. I think that's a very dangerous spiritual condition to be in.

That, I think, again, I think you put that so well, Dr. Mizramay, especially in the heart posture of it all, of God is looking at your heart posture of he's not saying you can't sin.

If you sin, you're out of heaven. It's how convicted are you when you do sin? And I just like, you reminded me of this head, like this way that I used to think as like an early

Christian as a kid. And like, I wonder if other people think this way. And like, I wonder how much still impacts me of like,

I was growing up as a kid and I was just thinking like, gosh, I just, you know, I just, I lied and I stole and I'm a kid, but I'll never be a nun.

I'll never be, you know, nuns are perfect. They have the least amount of sins. So they for sure are going to heaven.

Me, I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to make it into heaven. Like, I'm a Christian, but I still sin.

And it was almost this like measuring stick of like, they have less points. They have less marks against them.

So nuns, nuns, Mother Teresa, they're getting in. Me, even though I go to church every

Sunday, even though I am convicted, I'm still sinning. I don't think, people that don't believe in God are screwed. You know, they are, they don't even want to be there.

But I think that you are kind of showcasing an entirely new way to think about it, that it's not like, well, the people with over 100 sins in their life don't get in, everyone else below do.

Like, I don't think God measures us in that. I think he looks at our heart to say like, you have this conviction about you.

You yearn to be with me. Sure, you fell short and maybe you're Ted Bundy and you converted with like a wholehearted conviction right before your death.

Under your argument, he would get into heaven despite his life. Right. Right, it is,

I don't know if this is helpful. You know, if I had a whiteboard, what

I would try to, if I'll draw sort of a line and then I'd have a big space and then there's

God. And if you look at that line, just to piggyback on what you're saying, you could see

Mother Teresa and the nuns and so on real close, closer to God, but they're closer to the space and then to God.

And then further back on the line, you can have, pick people that you think are just, you know, really bad people, you know, maybe people that listen to country music.

No, I'm just joking. But like, whatever, like just people, you know, so they're further back.

And so you could say like Mother Teresa and the nuns are closer or more righteous or whatever, if you're using that kind of scale.

But the thing is that gap is an infinite gap. So yeah, like on this line, some of us are further along on the line than others, but you know what?

We all need Jesus because we're all separate. We're all, there's this unbridgeable gap between humanity and God.

And that's kind of what the Bible says. Like, if you break one little law, you've broken them all.

And that's the part of kind of quote, unquote, Christian teaching that says something like, you know, it doesn't matter how bad you are.

We're all beggars trying to point, we're all pointing to where you can get food.

And so whether you're a serial killer or you just told a white lie, we're all in the same boat.

I think that's what they're getting at is it doesn't really matter if you're better or worse.

You know, scripture even says your good deeds are like filthy rags. We're all infinitely separated from God.

And so we need Christ. We need Christ and what he's done for us. Now, if you wanna get picky, yeah, there's some sins are worse than others, right?

I don't think I wanna say that a white lie is just as bad as killing a thousand people or committing genocide.

Oh, like genocide is way worse than committing a white lie. But the point is once you are a sinner or once you've committed a little sin, you are now, you cannot be in God's presence, right?

Like you are unholy, you are unrighteous. And that's why we need the gospel.

So I think maybe recognizing that, then you sort of see like, well, yeah, okay.

Yeah, your childhood self, like, okay, sure. You think that the nuns are better than you are, but guess what?

The nuns need Jesus, you know? It's just as much as you do, you know? I think, yes.

Thank you so much for saying that. You've brought up so many good points, especially in the like, you're like, what is it? You can look at sin as like graphs.

So like, here's a little white lie and here's murder. You know, this one's clearly worse and bigger, but God looks at it from the other way where they're all just sins of like, sure.

I think even says like sexual, what is the way to say it? Like sexual sins is worse.

Like that is a bad sin. And we've all struggled with that. Because it's a sin against the body in a way that other sins are not.

I think Paul says that, yeah. Right, and so it's like, well, you know, for the people that waited until marriage had no deviancy, all right.

So they're for sure in, you know, but yet they stole, you know, they killed somebody. Right, right.

And I think it's hard because when we get into these conversations of holding each other accountable and I've got a great family, so they have no problem telling me what

I'm doing wrong. And I love them for that. It is hard for them to be like, well, this is what you're struggling with Cassian.

And I go, but you, you know, I wanna point out that log and that splinter in their eye.

Cause it's like, we're both in the same boat. But yeah, you're doing a lot better than me. You're two inches closer to Jesus than I am.

But you're right, even the nuns and the Popes and the priests and the pastors, the people that are the holiest, you know, all things considered, we're still all in the same boat of meeting

Jesus, even though some might be weighed down more so than others. Right, right. And just,

I don't know if I'm muddying this a little bit, but muddying the waters a little bit, but just, if you talk to earlier theologians, they would, and you ask them like, what's the worst sin?

And you know, and you might wonder like, would they say the sexual sin or homosexuality, whatever?

No, they would have said, they probably would have said pride. Pride is the worst sin.

And they might've justified that by saying, Lucifer, when he sinned and became the devil, the sin that he committed was pride.

And notice Lucifer, at least in their understanding, didn't have a body. He didn't have a physical body.

And yet he committed, in their minds, pride is the worst sin. And the reason

I mentioned that is, you can be a nun, or you can be someone who's perceived to be holier than normal people, and you can have the sin of pride.

Where you - I don't understand the sin of pride. I think you would have said idolatry, if I'm gonna be honest. If you would have said the worst sin.

Look at the Old Testament, it's nothing but idolatry. Even like, doesn't every, like it's like almost every sin goes back to theft in some way.

Every sin kind of goes back to idolatry of like, well, I'm worshiping myself. I'm worshiping money. I'm worshiping whatever.

But pride, help me understand that, because I don't understand how that's a sin. Well, pride and idolatry,

I mean, there's ways of thinking about pride that you can think about it as a kind of idolatry.

But, because what pride, pride is really where you are, you're putting yourself over other people, ultimately over God.

And, you know, the Lucifer said, what God has,

I want that. God is God, I want to be God. And so that's how they thought about pride as, and that pride was kind of the root sin.

And all other, you know, sometimes in the Catholic tradition, particularly we talk about the seven deadly vices or sins.

In that tradition, actually, pride was often at the root and then envy and sloth and lust were sort of grew out of this root sin of pride.

And, you know, I'm not necessarily wanting to get us distracted with that, but the point I was just wanting to make is that even the people who are perceived to be holy, you can be that person and be very prideful.

And that particular sin of pride is just interesting that earlier Christians would have thought, that's a real dangerous sin, you know?

Gosh, this is so good. This is so good. Wow, I feel like we're like,

I still have so many questions and we're kind of done, but I don't care. I don't want to end this just yet. I mean, let's talk about like the sins of people who have died.

Do you think this is like an open and shut thing of like, they're dead, they had their chance. There's no change in their salvation once they're gone.

That's a heavy one, particularly, because people who really wrestle with that question, maybe parents who have lost a loved one, who lost an infant.

I mean, just not to get too personal, but in our family, some years back, we had a daughter,

Her Grace, and early in the pregnancy, we actually realized she had a condition called trisomy 13.

And if you look up trisomy 13, it's a chromosomal disorder. It's in the same family as Down syndrome, which is trisomy 21, but with trisomy 13, it's not really compatible with life.

And so we did the ultrasound and they kind of did a few tests and the doctor was like, it's trisomy 13.

And they kind of had their way of basically saying, do you guys want to do an abortion? Of course we said no. And so we were praying for a miracle.

The church was praying. Lots of people all over the world were praying because obviously it's an easy thing for the

Lord to just heal her. Easy peasy. And then when she was born, it was clear that the

Lord chose not to heal her. And so she lived 30 days and it was sweet that we had the 30 days with her.

But of course, then the big question about Sarah Grace is like, is she with Jesus?

Will we see her in the new heavens and new earth, like free from any disease or not?

Now, the tricky thing is she never put her faith in Christ. She didn't hear the gospel.

So, and if she has original sin, which I believe she does, and if she's in the condition vis -a -vis like what we've talked about earlier in our conversation, then that means that she's separated from God.

And so she needs to be saved. She needs to be justified by grace and faith, but how could she be justified by grace and faith if she never heard the gospel?

So that's why that issue for many parents, they're gonna be, well, what about the, are they asking the pastor, is she in heaven right now?

And then there are other scenarios, obviously, that raise the same question.

So I think what I would say is, the thing about this particular question is the

Bible doesn't really have much to say. The Bible is relatively, to my mind, the

Bible is relatively silent in this question. And so we have to be really careful that we don't sort of have all this wishful thinking.

And I just kind of like impose it on the Bible. Like, I just kind of wish, I basically like, this is what

I want. And so I'm like, that's what God is gonna do. If we're Christians, we wanna be tethered to God's word, we wanna hear what

God says. And I think on this question, God doesn't really say that much. So you're gonna find, if we stick on the infants who die, if they die in infancy, what about them?

There are some who would just say, all infants who die, regardless of whether they're from an atheist family or not, they're all elect and they're going to heaven.

Just by virtue of the fact that they died when they were infants tells us that they're elect. And so obviously that's a message that parents will love, right?

Because that just means my kid is in heaven. So that's one view. And also, by the way, if you're a

Baptist, in the US, many Baptists have a doctrine of the age of accountability. And so they would say like, since the infant hasn't reached the age of accountability, then they go to heaven.

So that might be another way that they justify that. I, in my tradition, there's a range of views, but one common view is that the children, an infant that has parents that are believers means that the infant is in a believing family or is a child of the covenant.

And because the infant's a child of the covenant, even though the infant died, that infant is elect and will be in heaven and then will be glorified when

Jesus comes back. I tend to have that view, but I still kind of feel like it's a hard, it's not an easy question.

And so where I land and what I would counsel other people who are wrestling with this is just to remember,

God is a good God. God is a good God. And so at the final judgment, when

Jesus comes back, whatever God decides, whatever the truth is about infants who die young and others, whatever the truth is, when

God does it, we will all see and clap and rejoice at God's goodness.

And God's gonna do right by Sarah Grace. God's gonna do right by anyone else you know and you're worried about,

God's gonna do right. And so that's where I end and that's where I land.

And even recognizing there's some of these questions, I don't really have a definitive answer, but I know that whatever

God is gonna do, he's gonna do right. And that's kind of where I put my hope.

And that's in alignment with a good and just and loving father. Right, right. You kind of bring up something and I know that we're at the end, but like while I have you and thank you for being so vulnerable about that and sharing that, that just adds so much more color and credibility to what you say.

So thank you. And do you think there is generational sin that still impacts people?

Kind of like when you have these Christian parents that protect the lives and the souls of their children, you see it throughout the

Bible of like, these sins of fathers way down in generations. Do you think that's an

Old Testament thing? Or do you think that is very real that like the sins of our forefathers still haunt us today and the prayers of our grandparents still protect us today?

Right, right. That's a good question. You see it in the

Bible. We do, we do see it in the Bible, but I'm also aware that I think it's,

I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone, but I do think in today, in some charismatic circles, that this idea of generational sin is very much, is a very sort of amped up and lots of people appeal to generational sin, and particularly to explain things that are happening in my life.

I might, you know, whatever, if bad things are happening or I've got some kid that's struggling with drugs or whatever, and my explanation is generational sin.

There must be some kind of generational sin that's impacting them. I would say about that, I kind of,

I'm a bit skeptical about all of that. I'm a bit skeptical about the way that the generational sin, like the way it's being used to kind of, it's very similar to some charismatic circles, how there's a demon behind every object and anything that's happening, there's a demon of pornography, there's a demon of lust, there's a demon of envy, and you just have to cast out these demons and then everything will be right.

It kind of has that feel to me, and I'm a little uncomfortable with that. But so if I put that to the side,

I think I would say that there is a kind of, there is a, and then also I recognize, yes,

Adam, obviously Adam and his sin has this generational impact, all right?

So we kind of recognize, if there's a generational sin, capital G, capital S, it's what

Adam did. Now the question is, what about my great -grandparents or my grandparents or someone in my ancestry?

Can their sins affect me in some way? Having not,

I don't know that I've, I probably could think a little more carefully about this, but I think where I'm inclined to go is that I think there's a kind of basic sense in which that's true, right?

Obviously if I had, if my dad was an alcoholic and abusive, that's gonna affect me, you know what

I mean? Like the sins have consequences, and so you can sort of see there's a kind of almost like, almost like in the physical world, there's natural laws and things have effects and so on down the road.

Like spiritually, you would think that there are consequences of people's actions, and obviously anyone who's grown up in an alcoholic family or in an abusive family can say that, yes,

I'm still wrestling with that today. So I think there's, I don't know how to talk about that, but I think in that sense, yes, they're generational sins.

But if we mean, if we're asking, are they generational sins that, I don't wanna say that it's so magically, that they have this power that is impacting me today and I need to find some way to kind of undo the effects of this generational sin,

I'm less, I'm more skeptical about that way of thinking about it, right?

Like I'm skeptical about sort of this magical power that generational sins are exerting in my life today, but I am more open to just the reality that sin has consequences and the way we are.

And actually, and what I like about this is it's just a reminder to us as parents and as grandparents that God has given us these charges and the way we live our lives, they matter, not just because they matter for us in our relationship with God, but they actually kind of, they have consequences on our kids and their kids.

I think being mindful of that, that's not a bad thing, not to overdo it, but that's not a bad thing to be mindful of, that sin has consequences.

That's why sin is so bad. That's why God keeps talking about it. That's why he, that's why Jesus came. So I will,

I'm cool with that, but some of the more magical ways of thinking about generational sin,

I'm uncomfortable with, but I probably need to do more thinking on it.

I appreciate that. I think you took us, you were able to extrapolate my little question and you were able to show more color to it, so thank you.

I could keep you here all day, but I won't, and I just want to say thank you because I think that you just provided a lot of grace and you've provided a lot of ways for us to safely explore these questions that I personally felt uncomfortable going into because I was so uncertain with it, but I really think that God requires perfection and we are so far from the standard of perfection, but through Christ, we're able to enter into his presence that it's a requirement to have

Jesus or else we would be so separate and far from God because he requires perfection and Jesus, through his sacrifice, made us able to enter in.

He was able to tear the veil and I love that you started us there.

That's the whole point of all of this. Yes, sin and sure, some are worse and sure, there's consequences and sure, it matters with your heart posture and sure, we should pray for each other, but at the end of the day,

Jesus is what makes this life possible. He's what makes sanctification possible. He's what makes joy and experiencing

God possible, as much as I personally, as a Sunday school Christian, it's so caught up in the wrongdoings.

Thank you for pointing it back to Jesus. Yeah. By the way, you probably, at some point, you calling yourself a

Sunday school Christian has probably got to sound inauthentic. You've had so many of these conversations and I think at some point, you just got to own the theologian,

Cassian Bellino. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, don't come for my identity like that.

No, it is true. There is like so many smart people's conversations in my head that you're right, you're right.

Like at some point, I can't feign ignorance, like, oh my gosh. But people are probably dying to take a class with you from Covenant College.

So do you have classes? Do you do things outside of teaching that people can connect with you? Do you have books? How do people buy your books?

Do you have like speaking engagements? How do people continue connecting with Dr. Mdweme? I do teach, obviously, every semester, but yeah,

I've got a couple. My recent books are, if someone's interested in the science and faith and kinds of questions,

I have a recent book, Does Science Make God Irrelevant? That's published by Crossway.

It's a little book you could kind of read in one setting. And I wrote it for sort of high school, college students.

So it's very kind of accessible. And then the other book is actually more, this is kind of more heavy going.

It's more academic. It's called Defending Sin. Defending Sin is the main title.

And it looks like when you see that title, I'm not defending that sinning is good, but I'm defending sin in the sense that there are some scientific perspectives that make it hard for us to believe in what the

Bible teaches about sin. So I'm kind of defending, I'm defending the traditional doctrine of sin.

So the main title of Defending Sin, I think it's like responding to the challenge of evolution and the natural sciences or something like that is the subtitle.

So those are two recent books. And then, you can Google my name and go to my faculty page.

And I love preaching. I've preached all over the

US and I preach at my own church and I often do talks and stuff like that. So people can reach out that way.

I'll link the books in the show notes below for anybody that wants to purchase them right now, but I don't know why they wouldn't.

This was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for so much time and to talking and sharing. Thank you.