Debate Review

Among misfits. A misfit in the trailer park at night. A misprint with a sixth sense. Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My true sense never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheets.

It's my 9th hit on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. Then the deep end and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the co-hosts of Open Air Theology, and I'm also one of the elders, pastor elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

If you don't come and visit, we really don't know what you're doing with your life, but be that as it may, I'm going to pass it down to.

This guy right here, Brayden Patterson. All right. I am Brayden Patterson. I am the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. We meet on Sundays at 11 a .m. Come check it out if you live in Southern Idaho.

It'd be a real blessing to be able to meet you. However, my family and I are going to be moving to California to Grace Bible Church in Moore Park in Ventura County. They meet on the Lord's Day at 10 .30 a .m.

So if you live in that area and you're looking for a fellowship, come check that out. It'd be a real blessing to celebrate the resurrection of Christ with you. Also, I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex-Mormon.

It's a real blessing sometimes to be hanging out with these guys on Open Air Theology. I'll pass it up.

To Tom. I do more than you. I get a longer plug, guys. All right. My name is Tom Shepard. I'm a member of Grace Bible Church in Burney, and I head up the evangelism team that goes out on the streets to proclaim the gospel.

We're north of San Antonio. Come out and visit us. I'm glad to.

Be here with you guys. Very good. Very good. Well, gentlemen, how was church?

Well, I was driving. I drove back on the Lord's Day. Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. So what is she saying? My wife is saying, are you wearing my T-shirt?

No, this is my shirt. This is my shirt. Take your wife's clothes off, Tom.

Are you wearing your wife's clothes, Tom? Yeah.

We went out to the G3 conference, the cessationism conference, and hung out there in Oklahoma. I heard some good preaching. We enjoyed our time out there. We drove back all the way from Oklahoma today.

It was pretty exhausting. So we listened to Jeff online. We listened to our pastor online. You got fed. Yeah. We listened to our church online as well as long as another one. So we actually didn't get to go today, but it was still a good Lord's Day.

How was your Lord's Day, Brayden? I actually was fellowshipping with the saints today. So it was great, unlike some other people in this conversation, apparently. Just got to sit in and have my co-pastor be able to preach today.

And so it was a real blessing to sit under him and just hear him speak on Galatians chapter four, verses one through seven, a very edifying text to be in. And yeah, it was overall a great Lord's Day.

How about you, Jeff? It was pretty good. No, it was really good. Just fellowshipping with the saints, man. I mean, I'm just so grateful that the Lord has got the people that he has at our church, just the fellowship, the camaraderie.

Man, it's unlike anything I've ever experienced. Like just the love that's displayed, right? It's fantastic. And now as far as my message, in the moment, I didn't feel like I was doing well, but I've received a lot.

I haven't got to hear my message. I mean, it was definitely a deep, deep topic. I spoke on John chapter 14, verses one through six, and I pointed out what's clear and obvious, but I also pointed out what isn't so clear and obvious.

And in doing so, it got a little deeper than most, but I've received a lot of feedback from it where people really enjoyed it. They thought it went really good. And again, I haven't got to hear it, but in the moment, I felt like I was dropping the ball.

I felt like I was eating it, but I'm grateful that the Lord used it either way. So amen.

What we heard was fantastic. It was really good. Pointing people to Christ, emphasizing that he is the only way, that was Christ is the only way to be reconciled unto the Father. I thought it was really good.

And that was, I think we were in Brownwood, Texas.

It was a backward. I thought it was. Jesus was one way in being innocent from birth is another way.

To heaven. Yeah. That's what we're going to be talking about today. Oh yeah. Hey, how does my.

Mic sound? Do I sound okay to y 'all? Am I clear? That's what I'm saying. I'm hearing that too. I got animals. I mean, I got the crickets and everything outside. Is that what you're hearing? It's not that.

Do you have a microphone plugged into your device? My microphone is this right here. Can you take that off and not use that? Let me try. I might not sound as good. Not saying that I sound good, but I know I've got one of those voices that you just.

Oh yeah. I hear.

Crickets. You're good now. Can you hear me better? Yeah. Hold on. Say something. That's better.

I'm talking right now. Can you hear me? Huh? Oh, wait, what? Listen, I've been standing. I don't want to hear it. I need some new besties. Tom has his besties. Okay.

Hey, listen. So what we're smoking, we already have a question. I'm smoking a diamond crown Maduro. It's some good stuff right there. What are you smoking, Jeff? I'm smoking a joya. A what? A joint? Yeah.

Joya. Joya. You're not allowed to do that as a pastor. Yeah. Yeah. Well,.

You know where we're formed. Okay. Yeah. We don't call something sin if the Bible don't call sin. That's right. Yeah. Right inside. I knew it was coming. I don't got much to hide behind,.

But I'm hiding. I'm behind those little hands.

You guys are ridiculous. So how many people, I mean, put a, put a comment in the, in the section,.

If you heard Braden's, uh, Braden's. Yeah. If you heard the debate that Braden did, where he just mollywop of COC. Yeah. Put it in the comments. Let us know what you're working with.

That's right. And if you didn't watch it, finish watching this and then go watch that.

Yeah. If you didn't watch it, listen, you're, you're about to get open air theology discipline.

Okay. I mean, we just, the very first thing, the very first thing when I, when I get done with the debate, I talked to my wife, of course, Emily, and then I went and called these guys and these guys telling me, Braden, before I even tell you if you did good or not, you look dumb wearing a, a button up and a tie.

They didn't even compliment me on the debate. They just started rifting and hating on the, my outfit. It was messed up. Well, we're open air theology. And.

I mean, I'll tell you how gangster this show is. Even my wife gets on the debate and says, you're an idiot. You're not allowed to use that. This is, but then I forget she's the, she's the black sheep spouse.

So she's allowed to do it. It is what it is. Not you an idiot,.

Braden. Oh, I thought she was calling me an idiot. I thought that, well, that's, I understand if she was calling you an idiot. That makes sense.

No, she was calling your, uh, your debate partner an idiot, right?

Oh, okay. That really makes sense then. Yeah.

That was funny.

Braden also had a whipped cream problem. I did have that. You come to Texas next week, I'm making you a Texas ribeye. Oh, Debbie.

Wait a minute. That's my ribeye.

Nope.

Listen, listen, I'm a little, I'm a little mad. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and get this off my chest while we're up. Before we get started, I'm gonna get this off my chest. These two Jack legs are going to be together next week.

You know, who's not going to be with them? This Jack leg, right? They're going to try to call me and want to know what, you know, what they're probably wanting to try to call me. They're probably just get all about me.

So we're not having this tomorrow. We're going to be absent.

No, we're next week. We're doing live. No, it's going to be right here. And we're both,.

I don't know. Yeah. It'll be next, next week. I'm still mad. I'm still mad. I just, you should be so mad. We probably won't actually have time to call you because of all the fun activities. I know all the fun y 'all gonna be having.

Get on my nerves. So we get to go. We're going to go do some evangelism. How do you say Jeff ain't nothing without saying that he ain't nothing by y 'all two.

Hanging out together all week. Yeah. We won't be able to call you to tell you ain't nothing.

So I'll be over here hanging out. Oh, chop liver.

We offered you to go hang out with some other friends and you weren't, you didn't like those.

Suggestions. Listen, listen, get on my nerves. Fair enough. What were you saying, Tom?

He ain't saying that. My beautiful fiance is in the chat. Hey baby. Oh,.

Order a stiletto. What the heck is, what are y 'all doing?

Still gross. Liver a liver is gross. I'm just letting you guys know. I'm pretty sure.

Yeah. I don't touch it. Okay. The only time I use liver is when I go catfishing.

Okay. I'm pretty sure that's like a actual judicial ceremonial law for the church is not.

To eat liver. I eat liver. It's. Oh no. Tom, do you really? Yeah. By the way, we're on carnivore here.

Here we go. Look at that. I got a new bestie.

Braden tell us what the debate was about. What was the topic of the debate?

Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll first come on to how the, how it came about. Um, I got hit up by Marlon. I think it was Saturday last week. I think saying, Hey, would you be interested in doing a debate on the topic of our babies born with a sinful nature?

And so I was like, well, I think I can make that happen. I got a lot of stuff going on next week, but I think I can make happen. And so I ended up telling him, yes, I believe on Sunday last week. So seven days ago.

And so in reality, between work, I had about four days, uh, to be actually able to prepare for this. And I'm also trying to do a seminary class right now that I'm getting through. So I didn't get a lot of time to debate for, or to prepare for this debate.

My opponent's name, uh, is Joshua Rodriguez on that debate. And he had, I think months to prepare for this. The other gentleman that he was originally supposed to debate backed out because of, I I'm not a hundred percent sure the reasoning for it, but something came up and he wasn't able to do it.

Um, I'm happy. I got to jump in. I think I did well for four days of preparation. Um, I was happy about it. Yeah. I thought you'd be good. So our baby's born with a sinful nature. What do you guys say?

Well, they're born in Adam. So, you know, through Adam, all, we all have died through Adam because when Adam sin, he brought into the world sin and death. And as long as there's death, then there is sin.

And as long as there's birth, there's going to be people born with that sin nature. Therefore we are going to die. The wages of sin is death. Yeah. When it comes to an infant, as long as infants die, all right.

Well, an infant hasn't committed a personal sin in order to deserve death. So how is it that infants are worthy of death? There is because they are born under the federal headship of Adam. Now, is that easy to swallow?

No, but good theology isn't easy to swallow. So he contradicted himself several times too.

He was talking about how God wouldn't, wouldn't punish an innocent person. Um, and then, and then he explained, he tried to explain away the punishment, you know, on, or the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah on the flood as well, where babies died.

Um, he contradicted himself several times is basically saying, well, you know, they were innocent. That was based on, on the judgment of their fathers, you know, uh, on, on their father's sin. So babies were being punished then, but then at the same time he goes, well, then you can't be punished according to someone else's sin.

All of them on that. Um, and he didn't, I don't think he knew what to say.

Yeah. I think the thing that I think really is bothersome about the whole conversation is that it really does undermine the gospel and what we see with the principle of Christ. I mean, even in the sense of, and this is not something I talked about in the debate, but God appears to Abraham and tells Abraham in you, there will be a sea that will bless the nations.

Was Christ inside of Abraham? Like this is, this is, this is speaking of federal headship and what brings about things. And so are we in Christ? Well, yeah, because he's our federal head. Galatians chapter three, we are the heirs of the promise, heirs of Abraham, sons of Abraham through faith in Christ, the seed singular.

And so I, my opponent doesn't understand though, in this video, he did not understand federal headship is his presupposition. His biblical systematic of how he's approaching to read the text comes from a church of Christ standpoint that doesn't hold the covenant theology.

And so that is completely foreign to him. And so that's what I was really trying to get to with things is that we have to have a federal head that represents us in one way or another, because Christ is imputed with our sin.

And we are imputed with his righteousness in second Corinthians chapter five, verse 21, that is the teaching. And so if we deny that we fall in Adam, how can we, how can we have hope that we are saved through the innocence of.

Somebody else? What blew me away is when you had, when you had said he was, he was making the same trying to draw a conclusion saying that if you're saying that all babies are born with the sin nature, then he turned it and said, well, then Jesus was born of the sin nature as well.

Oh man,.

When he said that, I about freaking threw my phone. So he's literally, and here's the thing,.

When you, when you don't understand who God is, when you don't understand his, because he's holy, that he requires perfection. He doesn't understand hypostatic union. Right. He doesn't understand who Christ is.

You don't understand man's condition. You don't understand who God is. You're not a brother. You don't understand the gospel. And, and, and it's, it's sad to say, but, but he,.

He doesn't understand the gospel. All that Bible reading, no better off than an atheist. Yeah. He's no better off than a Muslim. And I'm going to say this and I'm going to piss a lot of people off and it's okay.

He's no better than someone who is in Judaism. They don't have Christ. They don't have God. Well, you have a Christ to listen. I'm at this point today to believe in Christ is to know Christ. And if you don't understand the hypostatic union, my dear friend, you do not know Christ.

Right. That's the whole purpose of whenever the God did not turn to Adam and said in a seed, the seed of Adam, when he's speaking to the serpent, he said the seed of the woman. Right. Right. This seed was not going to have a federal head.

He's not going to be born of a natural birth in the sense that a one man and one woman come together and have a child. That's right. If Jesus, if Joseph was truly Jesus's father, then Jesus would not have been the Messiah.

Right. That's right. He would have been condemned the same way as all people are condemned in Adam.

At birth. Right. So, and that was the thing. I think even Brayden pointed that out, just saying he basically under your system, you're saying that if a baby is born innocent and never sins, then he's going to go to heaven.

He doesn't need Christ's righteousness put on his account because he's already perfect. That's basically occasions. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing that.

Really bugged me about it is that he, so first of all, he never said anything in any of the conversations that I had with him or he had with Marlon about using slides. And so he brings up these slides that have pictures of babies with devil horns on it.

A second command violations with it things that I was not aware of, and I was not okay with at all. And so Marlon didn't know about it. It took place. It is what it is. I'm just disappointed that he did that, to be honest with you, because like that would be the equivalent of me making a slide and having a baby dancing on the blood of Christ or dancing on the cross saying, look at how innocent I am.

I don't need the blood of Christ. I'm going like, those are just red herrings that are not like that should not be permittable in a debate when we're trying to have a cordial conversation.

Isn't that what he tried to do too? And I think you had actually mentioned it to Jeff and I before the debate even started that you've, you've seen him do this a couple of other times. Where, where he was trying to make the case.

Where do all babies go to hell. Since, since if they died, do they, do they, do they all go to hell? And you'd pointed out, you'd brought up, you're bringing up an emotional point to, to look at the implications of something that wasn't, that's not what the debate was.

It was on, does the baby have original sin or not?

A thousand percent. Yeah. So his question was, do babies go to hell? And that is a question on soteriology that absolutely is tied with original sin and that question on it. But that being your very first question just shows where you're going with this.

Like you're just trying to make an appeal for the audience to get emotionally charged with it. I would have had a lot more respectful and said, let's go to a Bible verse. And I'm going to ask you this.

First of all, like that would have been totally different that like, just to say, do babies go to hell? You're making an emotionally charged straw man. That's a red herring. That's trying to get people to be emotionally invested with your argument rather than what scripture says.

And.

That, that's just ridiculous. That's not good. I think the most outrageous thing he did, one besides that was bringing up the fact that you're going to be the next pastor at Grace Bible Church and the current pastor who you're going to be, as if he was trying to find some contradiction and there was no contradiction.

It just bit him in the butt when he tried to do.

That. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that either. I thought it was quite comical because when he said that, I was like, Oh, he's talking about pastor Errol right now.

Nothing to do with this conversation. He wants to. Hey Jeff, do you, do you mind if I play this.

Video of Errol and what he said this today? He said this today at his church, at the church that.

I'm going to Grace Bible Church. Are you trying to make us cry? I got pretty emotional.

This gentleman, look, Joshua went to this humble man and was trying to, listen, this humble, gracious, godly man that has been pastoring for 40 years. Listen to like, just listen to how sweet this gentleman, just the kindness.

Listen to this.

Yesterday, uh, our next pastor Braden was engaged in a, a debate online and it was live from five to seven or something like that. Francis and I watched it last night. Listen, go to, go to YouTube and put in the search bar, gospel truth, the gospel truth.

That's the name of the people who sponsored the debate and just put in Patterson debate on, on that. And it'll come up. He's involved in more than one. Just look for the one that was on the fifth. We'll leave that up for a little while so you can write that down.

Listen, you know why I want you to listen to this. I want you to see how gifted your pastor is. I could not have done that when I was his age. I could not do that now. He is uniquely gifted with God's word and kind, powerful, bold, but kind.

Um, it helped, of course, that the position he was debating was correct. And his opponent was sadly doesn't understand the gospel, even though he claims to be a Christian. But I just, I just really want you take the time to watch your pastor in action.

Um, wow. Yesterday, uh, our next pastor.

That guy to go and try to, I was just, I was, I think he's speaking too kindly of you. Like,.

I just, yeah, I agree. I agree. Listen, I just, when Joshua brought him up and thought that like saying something that he would say was going to contradict something, I was going to say it. No, not at all.

And like, that's just, I don't know. I thought it was a little bit off. It wasn't, it wasn't called for, but thus he did it. And I think it did not work out for him because Errol and I are, we're both reformed Baptists.

So guess what? We're both arguing for probably from that perspective.

So I'm not on that. And, and I, I would, I would even bet, I would even bet the arrows probably praying for this guy because he truly does. Oh yeah. And the gospel. I, I promise you he is. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He is a humble. That was, that was underhanded to see, you know, what God means for bad God or what is it? Good God. What man means for bad. God means for good. Good Lord.

Oh my Lord, dude, you need to go to bed. I will say, I will say this. I told you guys earlier,.

I am from Idaho. I'm a simple man. I mispronounced Philippi, Philippi. I still don't know the way to say it. And in the debate, I said, you can't say Tullahoma your, your path. No, it's not. It's Tullahoma.

I live here. And it's not Cal, it's Kyle. Kyle. That's what I said. Listen, I said Aorist and I should have said Aorist. That's my fault in the debate. Stop straining at gnats and trying to swallow a camel in the process.

Hey, what's up, Tim? How are you? How are you doing, Michelle? How are you doing, Debbie? Sup? Well, I, uh, I have the video of the debate here. I don't know if you guys want to listen to any of the parts that were said by.

Either him or by me addressing him. I don't even think they're really going to pay attention because we kind of pushed Haps out and brought Tom in and no one even said anything about it. What are they listening to here?

You ready for it? Let's do it. I'm down.

What parts are you going to put? You know, I think the best parts, whatever parts you want me to put do it where he was asking you questions because you can nail them on everything that he,.

That he tried that. Yeah. All right. It's coming up.

Can I bring up before we go right to his questions? Can I bring up the time when I asked him?

You can do what you want. This is your show too. Let me ask him permission.

Look at how handsome Brayden looks though in this. He looks like a dork fish.

I know y 'all are jealous, but that's no, no. He's got better hair. I believe it's right here.

Yes. I mean, clearly he's in a...

Oh no.

He obviously didn't have kids, right? Orthodox.

He does have one child. He does have one kid.

He does not around him.

Before we begin, if you're new to this show, we make fun of people and we do it in good fun. So get over it. Yeah. If you're looking for a show that doesn't make fun of people, this is not the show.

That's right.

We'll play a violin for you at the end of the show though.

It is true. If you can't have fun, what are you doing?

Yeah. What are we doing? I've never heard of a dork fish.

I mean, clearly he's in a... where he obviously understands law, right? I said earlier about that, you know, when we come to our youth, now you're asking me like, well, he had to look into the law that he's in.

Well, obviously it becomes in his youth, you know, understanding. Then obviously he obviously knows that he's sinned, but the law obviously just exposed his sin that was to covet. So he said, I would not know covetness unless the law said, do not covet, right?

So he did not know that. He only knew what he understood was based upon what the law actually said. And that's how he died. That's right. And says in Romans 7, 11, for sin taken occasion by the command to see me and by excluding.

So sin slew him, but isn't the case that he was already born like slain rather than sin slain him after the commandment came and deceived him and slew him. So, I mean, I don't know how, I mean, if that's your point is to.

Yeah. So you're in your thirties. Let's just say you have high blood pressure. Let's just say you have it. And you've never had your blood pressure taken. Do you know without the blood pressure being taken that you have high blood pressure?

No. Okay.

Yeah. So if I give you a blood pressure machine, what does it tell you?

That I have high blood pressure.

Yep. So there was sin. The law came and it showed Paul that he was sinful previous to the law before. And your argument from verse nine is that Paul was innocent when Paul saying he was actually sinful before the law came.

Well, Mike drop.

I don't think what's being dealt with is that he says I'm alive.

So it wasn't like he was saying that got him tripped up big time.

Yeah. Big time. Big time.

Yeah. Yeah. That was good.

Yeah. So let me go right to his opening Q &A part right here, because I know the reason I was arguing from that was Romans seven, nine says before the law came, I was alive. But when the law came, I died.

And then verse 13, it says that the law demonstrated that I was sinful. So what he's talking about there is that Paul thought he had righteousness. But when he realized what the law was, he realized he was dead and he couldn't be made righteousness.

That's that's what the whole point of that is in that part. But here is.

No, guys, this is Charlie with Badass Beard Care. And today I'm here to talk to you.

What's up, Charlie?

Free sample. That's right.

So while I'm here, let's just get some free sample of beard oil.

Talking about sins or righteousness. He's talking about a Jewish system of the Levites and the Melchizedek. It's not talking about righteousness being spread to another person or sin being spread to another person.

So I can't find Joshua. Yeah, for your 20 minute cross. OK, so, Brayden, first question, if all children are born in sin, right, which would be a child or an adult, you know, makes no difference.

Right.

Then do you believe that is possible for God to send perhaps my seven month year old or your three sons to hell, if God forbid they die today?

I think that that is a question regarding soteriology that I heard you ask in your debate with Ian that I believe is a fallacious straw man and that is being used as a red herring. That's not dealing with the fact that children are dealt with or are born with original sin.

However, I will answer your question on this and I will do it in a non-emotional way. According to the 1689, one of that's confession of faith that is fitting with the scripture on this topic. It gives us what scripture also gives on the topic is that there's always one means of salvation for all people, which is being born again and having faith in Jesus Christ alone.

And it's righteousness of Christ, the obedience, according to Romans five, that makes a person righteous. So do children go to hell or to heaven? Ultimately, I don't know anybody that goes to hell goes there justly based off of the based off of not only their sin, but what the representative Adam did.

But anybody that goes to heaven likewise is represented in Christ. So if a child goes to heaven, according to the confession, according to scripture, it's based off the righteousness of Christ. Pause it there.

So he brings up my children, my children, like that's just, that is not cool to do in a debate.

But at the same time, it worked against him too.

It did.

Yeah, it definitely did.

You want me to just let this play, Tom? And we can talk about things or what? Is there a place in there specifically you want to look at or what?

So, yeah, I'm trying to think when the question came out, does God kill innocent blood? Do you know where that is specifically?

Ooh, that was a question he asked me.

That was a question from, it was at the... It was one of the obvious guys.

That's right.

Even if none guy asked it.

Oh, look at that. I just got it.

By the way.

I just put it up and I got it in my first click. There you go.

Okay, this is good. All right.

Listen to both answers on this.

Well, it's not for Joshua, but it says for both. I guess every question for both is so capacity. But anyway, anyway. Well, does God kill innocent blood, Joshua? Does God kill innocent blood?

Right now, it is a time of war.

Guys, you guys want to pay for a premium YouTube subscription?

No, we read in Jeremiah 9, where they were killing innocent blood in regards to... Now, I guess what he's trying to say is that when God killed certain nations where children involved, that was a consequence of their parents.

So they died because of that. Children weren't committing sins. Therefore, God was killing them for that. No, but like me, if I was born to a mother who was a drug addict and I come out deformed, that's not because I somehow inherited her saying that I'm a drug addict too.

No, it's a consequence, right? Just like in Jonah, when the ship was being wrecked, the people were saying, what's happening? Who's causing this? It was a consequence of what Jonah did. And the people in the boat happened to be part of the situation.

Where they had to pay for Jonah for what he was doing. So no, God does not kill innocent blood in regards to, oh, I'm going to kill a baby because, you know, they're a devil. No, that's not how he works.

As for David, when his baby died, it was a consequence of what David did. It wasn't because God set forth just to kill that baby. That's not the case. All right, Brayden.

Yeah, so Joshua just essentially became a believer in original sin. He said that the babies were dead, were able to be killed because of a consequence of their father's sin. And he quoted earlier from Ezekiel chapter 18, saying that innocent people from the children of a father shouldn't be put to death because they are innocent.

He has just contradicted himself. And he's closer now to the line of original sin, which praise the Lord for it. This is dealing with federal headship. No one is righteous. No, not one. Children are not righteous by nature and they are only made righteousness righteous through the federal headship of Christ.