(Christian Leadership) the Way of the Cross — Zac Poonen

The Holy Spirit Equips Believers for Earthly Service

I want to read from Luke's Gospel, Chapter 3. Luke's Gospel, Chapter 3, Verse 21. We have spoken in more than one session, I have anyway, about the power of the Holy Spirit. And I have for a long time felt that the great need in Christendom is to approach this whole matter with an understanding of it based on scripture and that we should present it in such a way that prejudices are broken down and that people don't miss what God has for them before they leave this earth.

We don't need the baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven. We need only the blood of Christ for that. The blood of Christ prepares us for heaven. The baptism in the Spirit is to fit us for this earth, for the years we spend here before we go to heaven.

And in Luke, Chapter 3, we read in Verse 21, it came about when all the people were baptized that Jesus also was baptized. And while he was praying, heaven was opened. Have you ever thought when you read that verse, what was Jesus praying about?

It's not mentioned, but I think I know because of one reason. Whatever Jesus prayed for was answered immediately. There was never a delay from heaven when Jesus prayed, except when he was hanging on the cross for our sin.

And that was different because there he was an atoning sacrifice. But otherwise, every time Jesus prayed, his prayer was answered immediately. And that's why I know what he was praying for. He was made in all things like his brothers, so that he could be our high priest, our forerunner, our leader.

Christendom, a large part of Christendom, has been so taken up with the fact that Jesus Christ is God, which is true. He was always God from eternity past when he was on earth, and for all eternity he will be.

That they have not considered sufficiently the humanity of Jesus Christ. Theoretically, they acknowledge, yes, he became a man. But it's the fact that he came in our flesh, which is an important confession.

John makes much of that in his first letter. Why is that so important? Because he's God, we worship him. Because he became like us, we can follow him. And because he became like us, he had to pray. There was no need for him to pray.

There is no greater challenge to prayer. No verse in scripture can challenge you to prayer as much as this one fact, that Jesus prayed. And it says in Hebrews 5 .7, he prayed with loud crying and tears at times, and he was heard because of his godly fear.

We know what he prayed for, because it was immediately answered in verse 22, the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. That's what he was praying for. He taught us to pray for the same thing.

How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? We never ask, we never receive. You have not, because you ask not. You ask and receive not, because you ask with wrong motives.

But he prayed. Even he had to pray for the Holy Spirit to come upon him. He wasn't any holier in his 31st year than he was in his 25th year. But something happened from that day. His ministry began. And he did things in his ministry he had never done for 30 years.

And as a preparation for that ministry, even the Son of God, when he came on earth, needed the Spirit of God to come upon him. You know, logic asks so many questions here. Didn't he always have the Holy Spirit?

Wasn't he born of the Spirit? If John the Baptist could be filled with the Spirit from the mother's womb, how much more Jesus? There are so many questions here, I don't attempt to answer them. Through the years, as I've tried to work out a theology of the Holy Spirit, I find I'm always confused.

I don't know. It's like the wind. We can get the benefit of it. But to produce a doctrine of it, I don't even attempt it. I want to live in the good of everything that the Bible promises me in the Christian life, even if I can't explain it.

Explanation is not necessary. My digestive system works even though I don't understand how it works. I don't need to understand. I mean, if you're a doctor, it's good to understand it. But I know doctors who can explain it, whose digestive system doesn't work.

So it's not the explanation that's important. The important thing is that it should work. I'm not particularly keen on getting a clear, pigeon-holed explanation, step by step, about the Holy Spirit. I don't want to go outside the boundaries of Scripture.

That would be dangerous. I don't want to experience anything in my life that Jesus never had, or the apostles never had. I don't want to. You know, when I see so many things going on in the world today, claiming to be the ministry of the Holy Spirit, of people falling down and making noises and all types of things.

And people have asked me, how to know? I said, here is a four-fold test, which I have recommended to all the people in our churches. At least one of these, it must pass. One, did Jesus have it in his life?

Did Jesus teach it? Number two, did the apostles experience it? Did the apostles teach it? Very simple. If it fails on all four counts, I say, I don't want it. I don't care what it is. It may or may not be.

I know the Spirit gives different experiences to different people, but it's a dangerous ground for me. I want to limit myself to these four. What Jesus experienced and taught, or what the apostles experienced or taught, that's it.

The Way of the Cross as the Way of Spiritual Power

But I point out this passage because many, many years ago, when I was seeking God for the power of his Holy Spirit, and I was disappointed with what I saw in churches that preach the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I never felt free to join those churches.

The Lord directed me, when I was studying his word and seeking God in prayer in my room, many years ago to this passage, and pointed out to me when Jesus received the Spirit coming upon him. It was when he was baptized in water in Jordan, and that baptism symbolized a surrender.

Jesus was surrendering himself to death and burial. You know, baptism, we are told in Romans 6, symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection. And John the Baptist said, I can't baptize you. And Jesus said, no, you have to do it.

It must be so, for only thus can we fulfill all righteousness. And there, Jesus gave himself into the hands of someone to be immersed, symbolically surrendering himself to death and burial. And what the Lord said to me that day was, the way of the cross is the way of power.

That's when the Spirit came upon Jesus. And what the Lord said to me at that time was, as long as you walk this way, you will have my power resting upon your life and your ministry. But if ever a day comes in your life when you think you've gone beyond this or learned this thoroughly, that day my power will depart from you.

God spoke that to my heart 36 years ago, and I haven't forgotten it. It opened my eyes that day to understand not just the cross on which Jesus died, but the cross on which I died with him. I've tried, that's another doctrine I have tried for years to understand and explain.

I can't explain it. I just believe it. I never saw Jesus dying for me on the cross, but I believe it. Why do I know? How do I know that when he died, he took the punishment for all my sins? There's only one way in which I know that.

Even if there were history records, historical records, that pointed out that somebody called Jesus was crucified on outside Jerusalem, okay, but it still wouldn't, the historical records wouldn't tell me why he was crucified.

There's only one way that I know, that it was for my sins that he died, and that he took the punishment for all my sins, and that's because the Bible tells me. I don't know any other way. How do I know Jesus rose from the dead?

I've never seen him. It's because I believe God's word, and it's when I believed God's word that he took the punishment for my sin, and that his blood was shed for my sin, when I believed it, I had peace.

My sins were forgiven. Now the same scripture says, your old man was crucified with Christ, in Romans 6. Paul says in Galatians 2 .20, I am crucified with Christ. I believe it on the basis of the same book, the Bible that tells me he took my sins.

Maybe I can't explain how he took my sins, but he took it. Think of this verse, for example. I find it very difficult to explain, 2 Corinthians 5 .21, God made him, or is it 5 .20, God made him who knew no sin, to become sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

What does it mean, Jesus taking my sin, I can understand, okay, he took the punishment for my sin, I can understand that, but what does it mean when it says, Jesus who knew no sin, became sin, on Calvary's cross.

I can't understand that, but I say, Lord, I don't know, but it just shows me your tremendous love that you, you became that for me, that I might become the righteousness of God in you. I don't want to explain it, or analyze it, or any such thing.

And so in the same way, when God's word says that I, in some mysterious, wonderful way, even though I was born only in this century, I was crucified with Christ 2 ,000 years ago, I believe it. My sins were committed in this century, but they were taken 2 ,000 years ago, so it's, I suppose it's possible, even if I live in this century, for me to be crucified with Christ 2 ,000 years ago, and I want to accept that.

Now, when I accept that, I'm saying, Lord, I agree with you, that this old nature of mine that I have received from Adam, cannot be repaired, cannot be improved, cannot be modified or changed in any way, it has to be condemned, it has to be crucified, it's fit for hanging.

Crucifixion was reserved for the worst criminals of that time. Other criminals were given lesser sentences, but crucifixion was for the worst. And I'm agreeing with God there, that this nature I've inherited from Adam is fit for the worst punishment possible.

It's fit only for death. What I need is a totally new nature, not an improved one. It's not, you know, there's a song, one chorus, in which one line goes like this, O thou spirit divine, all my nature refined.

It's not true, it's not possible. I never sing it that way. I always sing that song, O thou spirit divine, make all thy nature mine. My nature cannot be refined. It has to be crucified. And when to choose the way of the cross just means, I agree 100 percent with God's opinion of my nature, with God's condemnation and judgment, when He condemns sin in the flesh on Calvary's cross, I say, Lord, I agree with it 100 percent.

When He put my old man to death on the cross, I say, Lord, I agree with it 100 percent. And how do I show my agreement? With words. That's easy. It doesn't mean a thing. The only way in which I can prove to God and to man that I agree with God's judgment of my nature on the cross is by taking up the cross every day.

In other words, by reckoning myself to be dead. That's what it says in Romans chapter 6. I began with Luke chapter 3 because I wanted to see the connection that I believe the biggest mistake, it's my personal conviction, I'm not here to judge anybody.

I'm not here to condemn anyone. My personal opinion is that the biggest mistake that the Pentecostal and charismatic movement have made is in not pointing their people to the way of the cross. That would have been a mighty movement if they had pointed people to the way of the cross.

You see the connection? Jesus chose the way of the cross and the Spirit came upon Him. These two are inseparably linked. The Spirit led Jesus to Calvary and the Spirit will lead you and me to the cross.

Always. There is a very close connection between these. It's when the rock is smitten in the Old Testament that the rivers began to flow. You know, I used to think of when I was younger, I used to think of Moses smiting the rock and a little trickle flowing out.

But it wasn't a trickle. Do you know how many people were there? Six hundred thousand men plus their wives and children. It must have been two million people. Can you imagine a city of two million people?

How many square miles would that take? 10, 20 square miles. Sorry, a hundred square miles perhaps. And no trickle would satisfy the water needs of two million people living in a hundred square miles. It was literally rivers flowing out of that rock.

That is the way for the rivers of living water to flow. The rock has to be smitten. Something inside has to die. That's my self. We don't realize how strong our self is, how important we make ourselves to be.

And that's what hinders the rivers of living water from flowing. We make other people feel small by our bigness. Something about Jesus, my dear brothers and sisters, which we really have to learn. Jesus said, learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart.

Have you just taken that as a verse? Or do you sit at Jesus' feet and say, Lord, teach me what it is to be gentle. Teach me what it is to be humble in heart. And here's just one aspect of it. That when Jesus never made other people feel small, he didn't over all them with his gifts and his abilities and make them feel inferior.

And if I follow Jesus, I will never make any brother, even someone converted today, feel inferior to me. He's equal to me. I'm clothed with the righteousness of Christ. It's the only way I'm accepted before God.

And he's clothed with the righteousness of Christ. And that's the only way he's accepted before God. I can't stand before God and say, well, Lord, I've served you for so many years so faithfully. On the basis of that, I deserve hell.

What shall I say even if I've lived in faith faithfully for God for 60, 70 years? And at the end of it, when I stand before God, what shall I say? I am damned, but Jesus died for me. That's all. Do I recognize that in my relationship with other brothers and sisters?

If self is slain, nobody will feel inferior to me in my dealings with them. I will never make them feel small because they have failed or because they have fallen in areas where I have not perhaps fallen or because they haven't managed it to do it so well as I've managed perhaps.

There is so much of this in Christendom. Christendom is full of leaders who make other people feel inferior and small. You are a great man of God or woman of God if you can make other people feel equal to you.

For that, the cross has to do a deep work within us of slaying all this sense of self-importance, all this sense of how much I have accomplished for God and everything. My old man is fit only for crucifixion, not for display.

And that's why when we present Christ to other people by our life or by our words, it's so important to draw the attention of people away from ourselves to Jesus. I must say that one of the most difficult things is to hold up the light of the world in such a way that the hand that holds it is not seen.

To blow the trumpet of God in such a way that the person blowing the cross that we really see and open ourselves to every opportunity where God allows us to be crucified by other men. And that's why God allowed Jesus to bear the cross all through his life.

I mean the physical cross he bore on Calvary, but there was another cross inwardly. He said, anyone come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross every day and follow me. Is it possible that the author and finisher of our faith, our forerunner, took up the cross only one day of his life and tells us to take it up every day for 40 years?

That's impossible. He took it up himself every day. And we need to ask the Holy Spirit to open our eyes to see that. When he was tempted, he died so that he would respond in love. It says in Romans chapter 6, knowing this, verse 6, that our old man was crucified with him and the purpose is, as it goes on to say, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

This is the secret of victory over sin, to accept the cross in our life. And therefore it says, therefore, even so, consider yourself, verse 11, to be dead to sin. Reckon yourself to be dead to sin. In all situations, I'm called to reckon myself to be dead.

I am crucified with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. What does that mean in practical terms? If somebody insults me, speaks evil about me behind my back or spits on my face or does anything, what does it mean to reckon myself dead?

Think of a dead man here. We've come for his funeral and somebody says, you're a good-for-nothing fellow. I knew, always knew you were a rotten chap. No change of expression on his face. Not at all.

You kick him. No response. Or the other way around. You praise him. Boy, you are a prophet. No change of expression still. It doesn't make a difference whether you call him a prophet or a devil. He is dead.

Now, a lot of people who hear or have read about these things, they're not really choosing to die. They are playing dead. You know, children sometimes play dead. Somebody tickles them or kicks them hard enough and they say, hey, what are you doing?

It's like that. Most Christians are just playing games in this area. But I want to say to you that if you're really serious and you ask the Holy Spirit to really help you in this area, it can become a reality and your life will be entirely different thereafter.

You know what Paul speaks about the power of his resurrection? That I may know him and the power of his resurrection. There's a resurrected life that we can live even now on earth. A resurrected body I will get only when Jesus comes.

That I have to wait for. But resurrection life can gradually penetrate into different areas of my life where the life of Adam ruled once. That's the message of the gospel. But the point is, there cannot be a resurrection without a death.

It's only those who choose to die who'll have a resurrection. You choose to die in an area, then you'll have a resurrected life. You choose to be crucified with Christ and then it'll be no longer you, but Christ that lives in you.

But you have to choose that way. The way of the cross in all situations. Death to self. Reckon yourself dead. I want to point out this passage in Revelation, the book of Revelation. In chapter four, there's a little expression we read here where John says, after these things I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven.

The first voice which I'd heard like the sound of a trumpet said to me, come up here. Come up higher. It's a beautiful word. Come up higher. We know that Christendom was in a pretty bad shape by the end of the first century.

All the other apostles had died. John was the only one alive. And he looked around and he saw elders who had a name that they were alive, but they were dead. Like the elder in Sardis. In another church, the elder was tolerating a Jezebel to run the show in the church in Thyatira.

In another church, they were so rich and they had so much that they didn't realize that in God's eyes they were wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. All the way down from the elder, down to the other one, down to the last one.

And in another church, they were very careful to obey the rules. They had rules and regulations and they kept all the pigs under control. But they had lost their first love. There was no love in their heart.

Beginning with the elder, down to the last person. John saw all this and he was grieved. Lord, what is going to happen to your church? He had a burden. God said to him, come up higher. When we see things like that, it's good for us to be lifted up to heaven's viewpoint, where the Lord says, look at these things from my viewpoint.

Like I said the other day, let the things that burden God's heart burden our heart, and let the things that don't bother God not bother us anymore. There has to be an elimination of a lot of things from our lives that don't bother God, that should stop bothering us altogether.

And the things that bother God should bother us. See, I can either carry my burdens or God's burdens. I can't carry both. If I come to God with a lot of burdens of my own, I can't carry His. But if I learn to cast my burdens on the Lord, I can take His burdens.

And that's the only way to serve Him. Where I eliminate from my life those petty, trivial things that happen every day of our lives, which have no eternal value, which have no eternal significance, which don't disturb God one bit, but which can disturb us so much.

A little loss of money here, the excitement that comes through gaining a little money there, or somebody insulted you, or you heard somebody spread a story about, false story about you or your family.

These things don't bother God. Shouldn't bother us. The Lord says, come up higher. And the only way to come up higher is by dying to this life here. It's a wonderful way. We read in Revelation chapter one, how before the Lord showed John the condition of those churches, He first gave him a revelation of Himself.

And John fell at His feet as a dead person, and he saw Jesus. And then the Lord said, now I'll show you the condition of these churches. We always need to have that vision of Jesus. Otherwise, we can be so hard on backslidden people, and we don't help them.

We always need to keep before us this vision of Jesus that John had, and then we can see the condition of the churches so we can help them. The Lord says to us, come up higher. When Jesus came to earth and died on the cross, it was not just the fact that He died for our sins.

You know, in one place Jesus said, My father worketh hitherto, and I work. Ever since man sins. We read in Genesis chapter one, that on the seventh day God rested, and then man sinned. And ever since that time, God has not rested.

He's been working. Jesus said that. My father worketh hitherto, and I work. And when Jesus came to earth, He revealed a principle that we see in the heart of God, that in a sin-cursed earth, there is only one way that God can serve man, and that is by the principle of sacrifice.

That was what was manifested on Calvary. And if we are to adequately represent God in the sinful world, that principle of sacrifice must grip us. And anyone who's not been gripped by that, he can preach a hundred and one things.

He will not represent God adequately. It has many, many applications. If there is no sacrifice in your life, you cannot serve God. Because Jesus manifested that as a basic principle. That's the only way God could serve man, and that's the only way we can serve our fellow men.

Sacrifice as the Measure of Christian Service

Now when we look around and see Christian preachers becoming rich through preaching the gospel, you understand why they're not, they haven't understood the first thing about God. They haven't understood the first thing about the way Jesus went.

When we see Christians seeking a life of ease on this earth, where Jesus suffered and served, we can say they haven't understood. A. B. Simpson wrote a poem where he said, there's no time for me in this life to look for ease and comfort, for this is not the path my blessed master trod, but strenuous toil, each hour and power employed, always and all for God.

Always and all for God. And all the great men of God, who have walked with God, who have understood God's ways, have understood that if I am to serve the Lord, if I am to be effective for God, this principle of sacrifice must characterize every area of my life.

The principle of self-denial, for the sake, for Jesus' sake. Not, you know, there are heathen religions that practice self-denial for one's own development of one's own personality. I'm not talking about that.

I'm not talking about fasting as a means of becoming slimmer. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about this principle that Jesus manifested, that it's only by sacrifice that we can serve. That's why we read in Mark's Gospel, chapter 12, when it says here, he sat down opposite the treasury in Mark 12, 41, and he began observing how the multitude were putting money into the treasury.

Read that carefully. Very carefully. He sat opposite the treasury, and he was watching. And he watches even today, not how much people were putting in, but it says he was watching how they were putting in.

He wasn't bothered how much it was, but he was watching how. And even today, as he watches, he doesn't watch how much we do. He watches how we do. Is there the element of sacrifice there? And then he saw the large, rich people putting in large sums, and a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.

And he called his disciples to him and said to them, see, this poor widow, she's put in more than all the others because they put in out of their surplus, but she out of her poverty. She put in all she owned.

Jesus appreciated that. It's not how much we do. He was never interested in statistics. Apply this not only to giving money, but to Christian work. We can say we're doing this, this, that, and the other for him, but Jesus doesn't watch that.

How do we do it? How much sacrifice is involved in it? We can give much, but there may be no sacrifice in it. We may do a lot of things, but there's no sacrifice in it. Then we have not understood the way of the cross.

And then we shall not have that power resting upon us that rested upon Jesus. The Spirit came upon Jesus to lead him along the way of the cross all through his life. When I was a very young Christian, I think I was about 22 or 23 years old, the Lord spoke to my heart very clearly from a verse in 2 Samuel chapter 24.

And that's been a guideline for me through all these years. And I think keeping it before me has protected me from many, many pitfalls and snares. I've seen a lot of young people, zealous, devoted. You see them 20 years later, either they are backslidden or they've become big people, very important people.

They are no longer the humble, broken servants of God they were when they started. God has blessed their ministry. So many wonderful things God's gifted them, and it's gone to their heads. They've become big.

It's because they haven't understood the way of the cross. Christendom is full of such people. In 2 Samuel 24, we read of a time when David went to offer a sacrifice to the Lord, and he came to the threshing floor of one of his subjects, Araunah.

And he wanted to offer a sacrifice there because God told him to offer a sacrifice there. And Araunah said, You can take whatever you want, King, 2 Samuel 24, 22. Take the oxen for the burnt offering, take the yokes of the oxen for wood.

You can have it all free. And everything, King, Araunah gives to the king. But the king said, No, I'll pay for it. Because if I take it free from you, and I give it to God, it would not have cost me anything.

And he said, I will not offer to the Lord that which costs me nothing. And that's the word the Lord spoke to my heart. Never in your life offer to me that which costs you nothing. And I said, Lord, help me.

If I serve you, it must cost me something. Other people need never know about it. It's enough if you know about it, but it must cost me something. Are you willing to offer a sacrifice like that? Not just once, but consistently.

I want to urge you, my brothers and sisters, let there be secret sacrifices in your life that no one knows about. Secret areas where you have sacrificed, where you have died, and you never talk about it.

Nobody ever knows. Deep trials and testings that you've gone through, which you never share with anyone. One of the greatest challenges in my life has been the fact that Jesus never spoke about what all he suffered in 30 years.

I'm sure he suffered a lot. I've tried to imagine a home, a poor home, with no private bedroom to retreat into when the temperature gets hot in the rest of the house. There's a poor home where Jesus lived with four younger brothers and two younger sisters, and those brothers didn't believe in him, John chapter 7 says.

I can imagine. Can you imagine living in a home with four unconverted younger brothers? How they would taunt you and tease you, and particularly when you're good and upright and holy, they'd taunt you even more.

He never said. I can imagine him walking down as a little boy down the streets of Nazareth, and old men sitting there and telling one another, you see that boy, the one on the other side? That's Mary's son.

We don't know who the father is. She was pregnant before she got married. He lived with that stigma all those growing years. Jesus said, when the Holy Spirit has come, he will take of the things of mine and show it to you, but he never spoke about it himself.

He never spoke about his sufferings or what all went on. If we ask the Holy Spirit to show us the glory of Jesus, he will show us these things. These are the things that have challenged me in my life as the Spirit has taken the things of Jesus and shown them to me and challenged me to go that way in daily life.

I want to ask you, ask the Holy Spirit to show you the way Jesus went. This is the whole secret of the Christian life, looking unto Jesus, how he voluntarily chose the cross. You read one sentence like he submitted to Joseph and Mary.

It's just finished in one sentence. That's all. But think of all that is involved in that one sentence. I've heard people say to me, I can't submit to that brother. He's not spiritual. Jesus could have said that about Joseph and Mary.

It didn't matter one bit whether Joseph and Mary were spiritual. God told him to submit, and he submitted as a little boy. He was like us. He was tempted like us. At every stage of life, you can see the footsteps of Jesus.

One of my sons was sharing a word in our local church a couple of months ago when he was home, and he said something that stuck in my heart. I'd never heard it like that before. He said that the Lord had shown him that at every stage in life, he could see the footsteps of Jesus.

You know, 10-year-old footsteps, 12-year-old footsteps. Jesus' footsteps were not so big that a little boy couldn't put his foot in them. He was also a little boy. Small footsteps, and as they grew bigger, bigger footsteps.

Always the way of the cross. What all did he suffer when he had to obey Joseph and Mary? Do you think Joseph and Mary made mistakes? As a new covenant father, I think of all the mistakes I've made. I can imagine how much more it must have been for old covenant parents who didn't have the Holy Spirit, didn't have the Bible, didn't have tapes or conferences or anything.

They must have made so many mistakes, and he suffered under them, and he never sinned, never despised authority. What an example. He never spoke about it, but the Spirit of God has come to show us the glory of Jesus.

I pray that there will be in all of our lives secret areas where we've had to be broken, because God was dealing with us. I say to young people, I've said this in all of our churches, if God has not succeeded, I mean if God calls you in your teenage years, and he's not succeeded in doing a thorough work of breaking in you by the time you're 30, well I don't know whether God will be able to give you authority, and give you a, fulfill his ministry through you.

When God calls a man or a woman in their teenage years, the primary thing he seeks to do in their life, in the years before he commits a ministry to them, whether they're 30 or 35, is breaking. Breaking the strength of their self.

And one of the ways in which he breaks us, is by putting us under authority. And as we submit to that authority, we are broken, and broken. And you resist it, God cannot commit authority. I've seen it, again and again and again.

I know there are people who abuse authority. I know Christendom is full of people who are abusing their authority, etc. That's got nothing to do with you. God is sovereign. I remember the years when I was a young person now.

You see, I've sometimes violated this principle that Jesus never said anything about his past life, and I've sometimes said it, and I've said, Lord, should I say it or not? But, I haven't made it a rule, but I say it sometimes just to encourage other people.

And I remember when I was in an assembly as a young man. And God had given me a gift of ministry, as I said, when I was about 22, 23. And there were elders in that church who were double my age, and they saw the gift I had, and how people responded to what I was saying.