October 6, 2025 Show with Jerry Johnson on Mormonism: A Warning about Characterizing a Cult as Christian when Evangelicals Seek for Allies

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the sixth day of October, 2025.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest today. My old friend, Jerry Johnson, joins us once again. For those of you who do not know Jerry, he is a renowned theologically reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, former host of the popular webcast, Against the World, and co-producer, creator, and writer for the highly acclaimed DVD documentary series titled Amazing Grace, The History and Theology of Calvinism.

Today, we are going to be addressing Mormonism, a warning of the rise of Christianizing a cult as evangelicals seek for allies in the culture wars. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear old friend, Jerry Johnson.

Old is the word, brother. Every day I'm getting old, I hate it. So it's good to see you, bro.

Yeah, you too, as always. And tell us those, I mean, I do have people who routinely ask me if Jerry is ever going to return to hosting his Against the World series. Any irons in the fire regarding that or anything else, any other project or documentary?

I will say this, I watch Against the World every once in a while, and I wish we had never ended it. I really do. But the probability of it coming back would be no, I mean, it's very small, unless God himself told me, and I don't believe in God's speaking today.

So I don't know, I doubt it.

Well, we will patiently wait to see if anything else comes from your workshop over there. And where was it, Dublin, Virginia?

Yes.

And I would appreciate you contacting me immediately the moment something develops. But today we are addressing a very important subject. As I've already announced, we're discussing Mormonism, a warning of the rise of Christianizing occult as evangelicals seek for allies in the culture wars.

And this became a prominent issue a number of years ago when Mitt Romney was running against Barack Obama for the presidency of the United States. And as everyone knows by now, Mitt Romney lost that race to Barack Obama, who sadly and tragically served as our president for eight years.

But Mitt Romney, I'm sure everyone knows, is a Mormon. And this caused a division in the body of Christ amongst those who would say, such as yourself, the Mormon church is a cult and it is too severely off and aberrant and heretical in regards to their theology, doctrine, teaching, and practice for you to ever vote for a Mormon official, especially the president.

And you made that clear in at least one, perhaps two, I think, against the world episodes. And why don't you tell us about that dilemma that you faced because there were Christians opposing your strict self-imposed rules on how you would vote.

Mitt Romney, the 2012 Election, and Why Jerry Voted Third Party

Now, I'm gonna answer by going all the way back to 2011, all right?

Sure.

When Mitt Romney announced that he was gonna run for president, I didn't think he would get it. I didn't think he would get the nomination. Now, let me say this, the Republican Party, even though I consider myself very conservative, does not own my vote.

And they're just not gonna automatically get it. If they put somebody forward that's conservative in their political views, but say they're a Satanist, I'm not gonna vote for that person. I'm just not, I don't care.

Well, I will either stay home or I'll vote for third party because I'm sure I'll never vote for a Democrat. I believe that the Democratic Party is so far left. I do believe they're Satanic. And so I didn't think Mitt Romney would win.

But just to remind folks, Mitt Romney, there was a long time going on. He didn't win a primary, he always came in second. And a lot of states would divide up their delegates. And what happened is somebody would win and Romney would come in second.

Then another person would win and Romney came in second. Then another person would win and Romney would come in second but Romney kept building up delegates. And all the other primaries, people in the primary eventually dropped out and Mitt Romney had the most delegates and he got the nomination.

And I can remember him watching him at CPAC. And I can remember him talking and I turned to my lovely wife and I said, he's nothing more than Obama-like. Now that is one of the reasons I was never gonna vote for him because I didn't really see much difference between him and Barack Obama.

I didn't care for Barack Obama. I didn't care for his politics at all but Mitt Romney I felt was right behind him. If Barack Obama was in, as I would never vote for him, Romney was like a nine and a half, all right?

I didn't see much difference. And I can remember I posted something one time on my Facebook page. And I said, if Mitt Romney wins the presidency, it's gonna be without my vote. And if Mitt Romney wins the primary, it's gonna be without my vote.

And so in the 2012 presidential election, I voted for third party and I lost a lot of friends over that post. And I mean, I had people call me up and they were angry with me. We gotta get Barack Obama out of there.

I agree. We need to get him out but I'm not gonna compromise my beliefs and vote for Mitt Romney. I'm just not gonna do it. So I voted for a third party candidate. I think it was with the constitution party, Virgil Goode.

And that's who I voted for. And I knew he wasn't gonna win unless God just put it in people's hearts. I felt Virgil Goode was a good man. I listened to a lot of things he said and I liked him. And so what happened was we were sitting around talking one day, me and some friends.

And I said, you know, Christian leaders are probably gonna come out and endorse Mitt Romney. And what they need to do is they need to make, even if they do that, they need to make a clear distinction between Christianity and his Mormon beliefs.

Because do let me tell you this, this is what happened. Sean, what's his name?

Hannity? Sean Hannity.

Sean Hannity. He had Mitt Romney on right after primaries, so right after Mitt Romney got nominated for the primaries. And I can remember he said, well, do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

And Mitt Romney said yes. And a Mormon could say yes.

Right, with a different dictionary.

Yeah, with a different dictionary, with very different terms or different definitions for the terms. And Mitt Romney said yes. And Sean Hannity, quite what you believe, the same thing I believe. And I was like, are you kidding me?

You just made that equivocation? Mitt Romney does not believe the same things evangelicals believe.

Right.

Just because they use the same words doesn't mean they have the same definitions.

Yes, and it is still yet to be really revealed whether Sean Hannity ever was or is now an evangelical. I know he married very recently, and even a professing evangelical woman who is another host on Fox News.

He was Roman Catholic and he began to attend with his first wife an evangelical church on Long Island where he used to live. The church actually, believe it or not, it was at one time the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset, Long Island, doesn't have that name anymore.

But that was the church where James White had his very first debate with a Muslim. I arranged that debate. But after that pastor left, the church became more accommodating to a broader spectrum of theological thought.

Theology wasn't really the thing that they championed over there, and they changed the name and so on. But he was going there for a while. Then he returned to Catholicism, and I have no idea where he's at today.

But he's not really a safe judge to determine what is and what is not truly Christian.

Although I don't mean this as an insult. I, how do I say this? I wouldn't look to any of the Fox News hosts as theologians. I just wouldn't. And you know, it pains me to say that, but I'm looking at him, and I've heard it all before.

I've listened to Bill O 'Reilly, and he starts talking theology. And well, he's not on Fox News anymore. But I was like, man, Bill O 'Reilly is wrong about Christianity, just totally wrong. Doesn't get it.

So anyway, I've heard a couple of them speak on theology. And at that point, I would just listen to him and let it go in one ear and out the other, right? Well, anyway, I'm sitting around with a bunch of friends, and I came up with this idea of drafting a statement, statement, if you will, called for the sake of the gospel.

All right, and that's exactly what it was. And let me read you what the opening paragraph of that was.

All right? Sure.

For the sake of the gospel, we the undersigned call upon Christian leaders and their respective ministries and organizations. If you plan on endorsing Governor Mitt Romney for the office of President of the United States, do so by fairly and unequivocally distancing yourself and biblical Christianity from its Mormon beliefs.

And my idea was to get 50 scholars or people that spoke a lot on the issue. I got James Walker was one. He was a fourth-generation Mormon. He is now the head of Watchmen Fellowship. I got Norm Geisler to sign, John Ankerberg, Peter Jones, R .C. Sproul Jr., Dominic Frilla, Dr. John Weldon, Dr. John Crane, Dr. Richard Belcher, Justin Peters, just to name a few, all right?

And we decided that what we would do is we'd get 50 scholars, if you will, people that have written books or anything like that. I know Dr. Ken Talbot signed it. I know Ken Gentry, Dr. Ken Gentry signed it.

We had a bunch of people, and then we went live with it. And like I said, I had people, I even, get this, I had CNN call me up and they wanted to do an interview.

Wow.

I was like, hey, no way I'm gonna go on CNN, you know? Fox never did, but CNN, definitely no, you know?

And so Were you afraid of that they'd somehow edit your conversation or something?

All of their followers at the time weren't gonna vote for Mitt Romney anyway, most of them. And, you know, I just wasn't gonna give any validity to that station. I consider it very corrupt. And so I just wasn't gonna do it.

I mean, they have done so many fake stories. And the one that got me was, hey, I don't wanna talk about Donald Trump, but I'll say it. When Donald Trump said that Liz Cheney never saw a war she didn't like, how would she like it if nine guns were pointed at her face?

And they came out and started saying, oh, Mitt Romney, or, I'm sorry, Donald Trump wants to put Liz Cheney in front of iris.

Right, right.

That's not what he said.

Right.

I mean, how in the world can you twist it that much? And there were so many things from the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. You remember that kid, Nick Sandman?

Yes.

That was, and this Indian guy goes over and stands in front of him and starts beating a drunk. And they had to pay millions of dollars because they falsely reported it. So, I mean, it was just things like that.

And that, of course, was after the Nick Sandman thing. But I was just like, there's no way I'm gonna do that.

Of course, that was way before any of what you just described occurred.

Yeah. And so, anyway, we went forward and we published this document. And I had people, friends of mine, that called me up. You need to give the Republicans your vote. You need to give Mitt Romney your vote.

We need to get Barack Obama out of there. And I said, look, guys, you may end up going from the frying pan into the fire. Mitt Romney is not a conservative and Mitt Romney is not a Christian at all. And, I mean, the Mormon beliefs are that they turn every Christian doctrine on its head.

And it totally make it sound like something else than what it says in the Bible.

The Law of Eternal Progression and the Fall of Adam

Why don't we have you go through some of the major heresies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I'll tell you what, this is the one that kind of bothers me, if you will.

Kind of? Kind of.

It really bothers me.

I'm sorry.

Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and fell from grace. I, but the Mormons believe it was a fall upward. The serpent said, you shall be as gods. And the Mormons believe that humanity didn't fall, but that they gained the knowledge of how to become gods.

And so it's the law of eternal progression that they call it.

Now, can you repeat the name of that? You kind of slurred that a little bit.

It's the law of eternal progression.

Progression, okay.

And, I mean, when you sit there and you think about it, we think it was a fall downward, evangelical Christianity. Now, I don't care what stripe you are, Reformed, Arminian, Baptist, Presbyterian, Nazarene, it was a fall and you fell downwards.

Mormonism makes it to be a fall upwards. Now, you let me say this, when it comes on the subject of Mormonism, James Walker, James White are much better at it than I am, all right? Mormonism is not my forte, never has been, but I know enough about it that I believe it's dangerous.

And, you know, there are so many things, but that is one that really sticks in my craw because it's totally abandons the biblical and historical view of the fall. And that's something that as Christians, we should not tolerate.

Now, do let me tell you this, it happened again recently. I was watching, I mean, I've watched him quite a bit. I almost hate to say his name because I like him politically and most of the time I've heard him speak on Christianity.

He's pretty good. And that's Biddy Johnson. And Biddy Johnson, I mean, I don't know if you've ever listened.

Yes, I have.

Okay, Charlie Kirk's memorial service. Like I said, he's a real good guy.

Yeah, he unfortunately likes to drop the F-bomb a lot, which makes me wonder where he is in his faith, but that's a little bit of a rabbit trail. Go ahead.

The Mormon church, they had that shooting a couple of weeks ago. And let me go on record. I think that was wrong.

I'm glad I

Of course.

And it was evil. And did the person probably think they were attacking a Christian church? Probably.

I don't know.

I do know he was anti-mormon, or they said he was. I haven't seen any more news stories about it. But Biddy Johnson, he started a program by saying, another Christian church has been attacked. And I was like, no, it's not a Christian church.

It's a Mormon church, not a Christian church. And all of a sudden I said to Tracy, I said, man, and they started equipment dating more and more, the idea that Mormonism is Christian.

Yeah.

And I'm seeing that a lot more and more out there.

Yes.

People are equating the two.

Yes, in fact, not long ago, just a couple of months ago, I saw an old friend of mine, Max Lucado. I knew Max going back to the 1990s before he was as globally famous as he is now. Had his cell phone number, his home phone number.

And he actually recorded at no charge a commercial for a Christian home for abused and abandoned children in Riverhead, Long Island, Timothy Hill Children's Ranch. He recorded a voiceover, absolutely no charge to them.

I got him on the radio before anybody in the 1990s. It was the first time he had ever been on the radio when I convinced his publisher Multnomah Press to sponsor a Christmas special featuring narrations by Max Lucado of his book, God Came Near, which is about the incarnation.

And I had Christmas music in between his narrations. And Max, over the years, has become more and more accommodating to heretical and aberrant views in the body of Christ. In fact, he was one of the signers of the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document.

And he was on Glenn Beck's program recently. And he was referring to Glenn as brother. And Glenn was making it appear that those two guys worship the same Christ and were brothers in Christ. And Max is a very famous best-selling author and a highly beloved figure by many.

And it's a really dangerous, misleading thing when you are going on a podcast viewed by, no doubt, millions, and you are giving the impression that Glenn Beck, as much as I like Glenn Beck and agree with him on many political issues, maybe even most political issues, he's one of my favorite political talking heads.

But I am never gonna give the impression that he's my brother in Christ. And that either reveals, on Max Lucado's part, a serious misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of what Mormonism is, or a serious lack of concern about true biblical doctrine and the gospel itself.

Let me tell you this, you'll love this. And there's nobody to blame but Mike O 'Fallon.

Yeah, I know Mike very well.

Mike did a cruise conference years ago in 2011. And this just all started coming up. This was before I did the document. And Mike said, what are you gonna speak on? And I had put together a lecture. I called it The Audacity of Glenn Beck.

It was kind of a takeoff from a book that Barack Obama had done called The Audacity of Truth or something like that. And I said, but I don't know if I should do that. It's a little controversial. And Mike goes, oh no, we like controversy.

So I did it on the cruise and I got death threats. I mean, I got death threats. And I was like, you gotta be kidding.

That was the cruise that you did with James White, right?

James White was a year later. But yeah, I thought that was funny, but I was like, man, thank you, Mike, you told me to do it. But yeah, it really is disheartening. And it's one of the comments I make in Marks of a Cult.

Now, just to let your audience know, they can go to YouTube and they can look up the Marks of a Cult, Jerry Johnson, and that video will come up and they can watch the whole thing. But I make a comment with more information in front of us, with the internet, with Alexa.

Well, I didn't say that at the time, with books, with books on tape, with books, you know, what do they call it? E-reader books and things like that. We have one of the most ignorant laities in the world, period, as far as the time goes.

And you talk to people and they think Mormonism is Christianity. And I'm here to tell you, Mormonism is not Christianity. It's the absolute opposite of Christianity in most things that it believes.

By the way, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

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And why don't you tell us about that experience briefly?

About three years ago.

Okay. And why don't you tell our listeners briefly about that experience?

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I believe so.

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By the way, the owner's name is Sterling Vanderwerker, but I think his manager might be Brian.

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But we are now back to discuss our theme today. Go ahead.

We do that. Let me say one other thing.

Go ahead.

After I got it for Tracy, I told her I didn't know what to get you. And she said, a man can never go wrong getting his wife a jewelry. So just anybody else that's been in the doghouse, you'll never go wrong getting them a jewelry.

Why Christians Must Not Confuse Mormonism with Biblical Christianity

Well, we are discussing a very important topic today. We are.

Chris, let me say this also.

Go ahead.

I want your listeners to understand. I'm not a purist, all right? I do not believe that a candidate has to be perfect. In fact, I've told people that unless the Lord Jesus Christ himself runs this president, we're never gonna get anybody perfect.

We're always gonna have a clay vessel as president, no matter who it is, all right? But when people pretend to be something they are not, that is when I will draw a line, especially when it comes to Christianity.

And that's why we called the document For the Sake of the Gospel. I didn't want to, in the document, tell people how to vote. I just simply said, if you're gonna endorse Mitt Romney publicly, then you need to draw a distinction between biblical Christianity and his Mormon belief.

We do not believe the same thing.

Right, and the situation in evangelicalism has not improved since the days when Mitt Romney was running for president. It has gotten perhaps even worse with the rise of the Christianization or the Christianizing of Mormonism, because evangelicals are so desperate to seek out and find allies in the culture wars.

And Glenn Beck, as wonderful as he has been, bringing us information about politics, he is either unconsciously or consciously masquerading as a Christian. He is not a Christian. I have had Reformed brothers in Christ swear to me that he must be a Christian, that he must be saved.

And I tell them, I have to remind them, look, if he was really a born-again believer, he'd be shouting from the rooftops that he made a major break from a cult known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

He wouldn't keep that quiet. And people have to remember over and over again, I remind people, cults and other false groups very often use the same vocabulary as Christians do, but have a different dictionary.

And I think we have to highlight, just so people know what we're talking about, we have to highlight why the Mormon cult is such a dangerous religion. As James White has said many times, including very recently on his Dividing Line webcast, they are, the Mormons, are even more polytheistic than Hindus.

They make Hindus blush regarding the number of gods they believe exist because it's an infinite number. They believe they, if they are obedient Mormons, will become gods in the afterlife of their own planet.

Their fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, in 1898, well, actually, that's when he was the president, 1898 through 1901. He said, as man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may be. They believe, as you were mentioning before, in eternal progression, which means they will become gods of their own planet.

They don't even believe that Jesus Christ was God on this earth, but he is now. But even though they believe he is God now, they are not to worship him because he is a god of a different planet. And they are about as polar opposite to biblical Christianity as a religion can be.

They do not believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone. They have a completely different understanding of the cross of Christ. Christ did not completely and perfectly pay for the sins of his people on the cross.

We could go on and on and on with the dangerous and satanic teachings, and speaking of satanic, they believe that Satan was the stepbrother of Jesus, correct?

Not stepbrother, it was actually the spirit brother.