October 6, 2025 Show with Jerry Johnson on Mormonism: A Warning about Characterizing a Cult as Christian when Evangelicals Seek for Allies

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the sixth day of October 2025.

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I'm absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest today. My old friend Jerry Johnson joins us once again.

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For those of you who do not know Jerry, he is a renowned theologically

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Reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, former host of the popular webcast

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Against the World, and co -producer, creator, and writer for the highly acclaimed

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DVD documentary series titled Amazing Grace, The History and Theology of Calvinism.

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Today, we are going to be addressing Mormonism, a warning of the rise of Christianizing a cult as evangelicals seek for allies in the culture wars.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear old friend

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Jerry Johnson. Old is the word, brother. Every day

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I'm getting old, I hate it. So, it's good to see you, bro. Yeah, you too, as always.

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And tell us those, I mean, I do have people who routinely ask me if Jerry is ever going to return to hosting his

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Against the World series, any irons in the fire regarding that, or anything else, any other project or documentary?

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I will say this, I watch Against the World every once in a while, and I wish we had never ended it.

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I really do. But the probability of it coming back would be no. I mean, it's very small, unless God himself told me.

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And I don't believe in God speaking today. So, I don't know. I doubt it.

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Well, we will patiently wait to see if anything else comes from your workshop over there.

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And where was it? Dublin, Virginia? Yes. And I would appreciate you contacting me immediately the moment something develops.

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But today we are addressing a very important subject, as I've already announced.

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We're discussing Mormonism, a warning of the rise of Christianizing a cult as evangelicals seek for allies in the culture wars.

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And this became a prominent issue a number of years ago when

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Mitt Romney was running against Barack Obama for the presidency of the

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United States. And as everyone knows by now, Mitt Romney lost that race to Barack Obama, who sadly and tragically served as our president for eight years.

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But Mitt Romney, I'm sure everyone knows, is a

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Mormon. And this caused a division in the body of Christ amongst those who would say, such as yourself, the

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Mormon Church is a cult, and it is too severely off and aberrant and heretical in regards to their theology, doctrine, teaching, and practice for you to ever vote for a

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Mormon official, especially the president. And you made that clear in at least one, perhaps two,

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I think, Against the World episodes. And why don't you tell us about that dilemma that you faced because there were

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Christians opposing your strict, self -imposed rules on how you would vote.

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Now, I'm going to answer by going all the way back to 2011, all right?

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Sure. When Mitt Romney announced that he was going to run for president,

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I didn't think he would get it. I didn't think he would get the nomination. Now, let me say this.

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The Republican Party, even though I consider myself very conservative, does not own my vote.

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And they're just not going to automatically get it. If they put somebody forward that's conservative in their political views, but say they're a

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Satanist, I'm not going to vote for that person. I'm just not. I don't care. Well, I will either stay home or I'll vote for third party because I'm sure

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I'll never vote for a Democrat. I believe that the Democratic Party is so far left.

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I do believe they're Satanic. And so I didn't think Mitt Romney would win.

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But just to remind folks, Mitt Romney, there was a long time going on.

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He didn't win a primary. He always came in second. And a lot of states would divide up their delegates.

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And what happened is somebody would win and Romney would come in second. Then another person would win and Romney came in second.

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Then another person would win and Romney would come in second. But Romney kept building up delegates.

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And all the other primaries or people in the primary eventually dropped out and Mitt Romney had the most delegates.

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And he got the nomination. And I can remember him watching him at CPAC.

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And I can remember him talking. And I turned to my lovely wife and I said, he's nothing more than Obama -like.

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Now, that is one of the reasons I was never going to vote for him. Because I didn't really see much difference between him and Barack Obama.

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I didn't care for Barack Obama. I didn't care for his politics at all. But Mitt Romney, I felt, was right behind him.

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If Barack Obama was in, as I would never vote for him,

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Romney was like a nine and a half. All right? I didn't see much difference. And I can remember

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I posted something one time on my Facebook page. And I said, if Mitt Romney wins the presidency, it's going to be without my vote.

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And if Mitt Romney wins the primary, it's going to be without my vote. And so in the 2012 presidential election,

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I voted for third party. And I lost a lot of friends over that post.

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And, I mean, I had people call me up and they were angry with me. We've got to get Barack Obama out of there.

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I agree. We need to get him out. But I'm not going to compromise my beliefs and vote for Mitt Romney.

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I'm just not going to do it. So I voted for a third party candidate. I think it was with the

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Constitution Party, Virgil Goode. And that's who I voted for. And I knew he wasn't going to win unless God just put it in people's hearts.

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I thought Virgil Goode was a good man. I listened to a lot of things he said.

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And I liked him. And so what happened was we were sitting around talking one day, me and some friends.

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And I said, you know, Christian leaders are probably going to come out and endorse

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Mitt Romney. And what they need to do is they need to make, even if they do that, they need to make a clear distinction between Christianity and his

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Mormon beliefs. Because do let me tell you this, this is what happened. Sean, what's his name?

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Hannity? Sean Hannity. Sean Hannity. He had

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Mitt Romney on right after primaries, right after Mitt Romney got nominated for the primaries.

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And I can remember he said, well, do you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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And Mitt Romney said yes. And a Mormon could say yes. Right, with a different dictionary.

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Yeah, with a different dictionary, different terms, or different definitions for the terms.

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And Mitt Romney said yes. And Sean Hannity, well, you believe the same thing

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I believe. And I was like, are you kidding me?

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You just made that equivocation? Mitt Romney does not believe the same things evangelicals believe.

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Just because they use the same words doesn't mean they have the same definitions.

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Yes, and it is still yet to be really revealed whether Sean Hannity ever was or is now an evangelical.

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I know he married very recently a professing evangelical woman who is another host on Fox News.

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He was Roman Catholic, and he began to attend with his first wife an evangelical church on Long Island where he used to live.

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The church actually, believe it or not, it was at one time the

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Bible Baptist Church of Syos at Long Island. It doesn't have that name anymore. But that was the church where James White had his very first debate with a

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Muslim. I arranged that debate. But after that pastor left, the church became more accommodating to a broader spectrum of theological thought.

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Theology wasn't really the thing that they championed over there, and they changed the name and so on.

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But he was going there for a while. Then he returned to Catholicism, and I have no idea where he's at today.

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But he's not really a safe judge to determine what is and what is not truly

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Christian. I don't mean this as an insult. I wouldn't look to any of the

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Fox News hosts as theologians. I just wouldn't. It pains me to say that, but I'm looking at him, and I've heard it all before.

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I've listened to Bill O 'Reilly, and he starts talking theology. Well, he's not on Fox News anymore.

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But I was like, man, Bill O 'Reilly is wrong about Christianity, just totally wrong, doesn't get it.

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Anyway, I've heard a couple of them speak on theology, and at that point,

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I would just listen to them and let it go in one ear and out the other. Well, anyway,

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I'm sitting around with a bunch of friends, and I came up with this idea of drafting a statement, if you will, called

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For the Sake of the Gospel. And that's exactly what it was. And let me read you what the opening paragraph of that was.

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For the sake of the gospel, we the undersigned call upon Christian leaders and their respective ministries and organizations, if you plan on endorsing

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Governor Mitt Romney for the office of President of the United States, do so by clearly and unequivocally distancing yourself and biblical

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Christianity from its Mormon beliefs. And my idea was to get 50 scholars or people that spoke a lot on the issue.

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I got James Walker was one. He was a fourth -generation Mormon. He is now the head of Watchmen Fellowship.

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I got Norm Geisler to sign, John Ankerberg, Peter Jones, R .C.

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Sproul Jr., Dominic Frilla, Dr. John Weldon, Dr.

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John Frayne, Dr. Richard Belcher, Justin Peters, just to name a few. All right.

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And we decided that what we would do is we'd get 50 scholars, if you will, people that have written books or anything like that.

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I know Dr. Kent Albert signed it. I know Dr. Ken Gentry signed it.

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We had a bunch of people, and then we went live with it. And like I said,

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I had people. I even get this. I had CNN call me up, and they wanted to do an interview.

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I was like, hey, no way I'm going to go on CNN. Fox never did.

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But CNN, definitely no. Why? Were you afraid that they'd somehow edit your conversation or something?

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All of their followers at the time weren't going to vote for Mitt Romney anyway, most of them.

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And, you know, I just wasn't going to give any validity to that station.

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I consider it very corrupt. And so I just wasn't going to do it. I mean, they have done so many fake stories.

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The one that got me was, I don't want to talk about Donald Trump, but I'll say it.

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When Donald Trump said that Liz Cheney never saw a war she didn't like, how would she like it if nine guns were pointed at her face?

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And they came out and started saying, oh, Mitt Romney, or I'm sorry, Donald Trump wants to put

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Liz Cheney in front of Iris. Right, right. That's not what he said. Right. I mean, how in the world can you twist it that much?

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And there were so many things from the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. You remember that kid,

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Nick Sandman? Yes. And this Indian guy goes over and stands in front of him and starts beating a drunk.

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And they had to pay millions of dollars because they falsely reported it. So, I mean, it was just things like that.

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And that, of course, was after the Nick Sandman thing. But I was just like, there's no way

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I'm going to do that. Of course, that was way before any of what you just described occurred. Yeah.

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And so, anyway, we went forward and we published this document.

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And I had people, friends of mine, that called me up. You need to give the Republicans your vote.

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You need to give Mitt Romney your vote. We need to get Barack Obama out of there. And I said, look, guys, you may end up going from the frying pan into the fire.

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Mitt Romney is not a conservative, and Mitt Romney is not a Christian at all.

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And, I mean, the Mormon beliefs are that they turn every

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Christian doctrine on its head. And it totally makes it sound like something else than what it says in the

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Bible. Why don't we have you go through some of the major heresies of the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints? Well, I'll tell you one.

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This is the one that kind of bothers me, if you will. Kind of? Kind of.

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It really bothers me. I'm sorry. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and fell from grace.

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All right? But the Mormons believe it was a fall upward.

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The serpents said, you shall be as gods. And the Mormons believe that humanity didn't fall, but that they gained the knowledge of how to become gods.

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And so it's the law of eternal progression that they call it.

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Now, can you repeat the name of that? You kind of slurred that a little bit. It's the law of eternal progression.

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And, I mean, when you sit there and you think about it, we think it was a fall downward, evangelical

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Christianity. Now, I don't care what stripe you are, Reformed, Arminian, Baptist, Presbyterian, Nazarene.

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It was a fall, and you fell downwards. Mormonism makes it to be a fall upwards.

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Now, you let me say this. When it comes on the subject of Mormonism, James Walker, James White are much better at it than I am.

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All right? Mormonism is not my forte and never has been. But I know enough about it that I believe it's dangerous.

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Yeah. You know, there are so many things. But that is one that really sticks in my craw because it totally abandons the biblical and historical view of the fall.

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And that's something that, as Christians, we should not tolerate.

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Now, do let me tell you this. It happened again recently. I was watching.

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I mean, I watched him quite a bit. I almost hate to say his name because I like him politically.

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And most of the time I've heard him speak on Christianity. He's pretty good.

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And that's Biddy Johnson. And Biddy Johnson, I mean, I don't know if you've ever listened.

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Yes, I have. He spoke at Charlie Kirk's memorial service.

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Like I said, he's a real good guy. Yeah, he unfortunately likes to drop the

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F -bomb a lot, which makes me wonder where he is in his faith. But that's a little bit of a rabbit trail.

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Go ahead. The Mormon church, they had that shooting a couple of weeks ago.

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And let me go on record. I think that was wrong. Of course. And it was evil.

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And did the person probably think they were attacking a Christian church?

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Probably. I don't know. I do know he was anti -war. They said he was.

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I haven't seen any more news stories about it. But Biddy Johnson, he started a program by saying another

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Christian church has been attacked. And I was like, no, it's not a

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Christian church. It's a Mormon church, not a Christian church. And all of a sudden

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I said to Tracy, I said, man, and they started equivocating more and more the idea that Mormonism is

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Christian. And I'm seeing that a lot more and more out there.

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Yes. People are equating the two. Yes. In fact, not long ago, just a couple of months ago,

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I saw an old friend of mine, Max Lucado. I knew

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Max going back to the 1990s before he was as globally famous as he is now, had his cell phone number, his home phone number.

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And he actually recorded at no charge a commercial for a

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Christian home for abused and abandoned children in Riverhead, Long Island, Timothy Hill Children's Ranch.

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He recorded a voiceover, absolutely no charge to them. I got him on the radio before anybody in the 1990s.

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It was the first time he had ever been on the radio when I convinced his publisher,

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Multnomah Press, to sponsor a Christmas special featuring narrations by Max Lucado of his book,

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God Came Near, which is about the incarnation. And I had Christmas music in between his narrations.

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And Max, over the years, has become more and more accommodating to heretical and aberrant views in the body of Christ.

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In fact, he was one of the signers of the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document. And he was on Glenn Beck's program recently.

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And he was referring to Glenn as brother. And Glenn was making it appear that those two guys worship the same

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Christ and were brothers in Christ. And Max is a very famous bestselling author and a highly beloved figure by many.

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And it's a really dangerous, misleading thing when you are going on a podcast viewed by no doubt millions.

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And you are giving the impression that Glenn Beck, as much as I like Glenn Beck and agree with him on many political issues, maybe even most political issues, he's one of my favorite political talking heads.

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But I am never going to give the impression that he's my brother in Christ. And that either reveals, on Max Lucado's part, a serious misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of what

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Mormonism is, or a serious lack of concern about true biblical doctrine in the gospel itself.

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Let me tell you this, Joe, about this, and there's nobody to blame but Michael Fallon.

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Yeah, I know Mike very well. Mike did a cruise conference years ago in 2011, and this just all started coming up.

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This was before I did the document.

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And Mike said, what are you going to speak on? And I had put together a lecture.

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I called it The Audacity of Glenn Beck. And it was kind of a takeoff from a book that Barack Obama had done called

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The Audacity of Truth or something like that. And I said, but I don't know if I should do that.

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It's a little controversial. And Mike goes, oh, no, we like controversy. So I did it on the cruise, and I got death threats.

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Wow. I got death threats. And I was like, you've got to be kidding. That was the cruise that you did with James White, right?

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James White was a year later. Oh, OK. But yeah, I thought that was funny.

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But I was like, man, thank you, Mike. He told me to do it. But yeah, it really is disheartening.

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And it's one of the comments I make in Marks of a Cult. Now, just to let your audience know, they can go to YouTube, and they can look up the

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Marks of a Cult, Jerry Johnson, and that video will come up, and they can watch the whole thing.

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But I make a comment with more information in front of us, with the internet, with Alexa.

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Well, I did say that at times. With books, with books on tape, with books, you know, what do they call it, e -reader books and things like that.

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We have one of the most ignorant laities in the world, period, as far as the time goes.

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And you talk to people, and they think Mormonism is Christianity.

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And I'm here to tell you Mormonism is not Christianity. It's the absolute opposite of Christianity in most things that it believes.

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By the way, we have to go to our first commercial break.

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If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our e -mail address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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And it just so happens that my guest, Jerry Johnson, is a very pleased customer of royaldiadem .com,

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and so is his wife, Tracy, because he bought Tracy a gorgeous diamond ring for her birthday probably about two years ago now, right?

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And why don't you tell us about that experience briefly. About three years ago.

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Okay. And why don't you tell our listeners briefly about that experience. Well, the thing is, every time

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I've been interviewed by you, I hear their commercial. And I think

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I called you up because I couldn't find them. I forgot what their name was. Shame on me.

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And you told me what their name was and who I needed to speak to. And the next day

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I called him up and I explained to him what I'm about to explain now.

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Every year I sit there and I'm like, oh, I got two weeks to her birthday.

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Oh, I got 10 days to her birthday. I got one week to her birthday. All of a sudden

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I had five days left. And I thought, oh no, I haven't gotten her anything. So I called up Royal Diadem.

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And I think it was Brian. Possibly. Is that right? I believe so.

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And Brian answered the phone. And then he got his daughter on the line. And I explained to them.

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And they sent me out a bunch of rings, FedEx, so I could look at them. I think that's what, no,

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I looked at them online. By the way, the owner's name is Sterling Vanderwerker.

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But I think his manager might be Brian. I think that's who you had me call.

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And so I called him up and I said, hey, you know, I need this ring.

39:04

And we looked at them online. They sent me something. That's what they did. They sent me e -mails, pictures of them.

39:11

And I got Tracy's ring size. And two days before her birthday, a

39:16

FedEx package showed up with the ring in it. And praise the Lord, it fit. So it really got me out of the doghouse.

39:25

So I'm very, very grateful for that. And Royal Diadem came through. And bright, shiny colors, if you will.

39:34

Well, folks, if you want to make your loved one as happy as Jerry made his wife Tracy with RoyalDiadem .com,

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a gorgeous diamond ring from RoyalDiadem .com. I remember she was showing it off on Facebook.

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40:30

But we are now back to discuss our theme today. Go ahead.

40:36

Before we do that, let me say one other thing. Go ahead. After I got it for Tracy, I told her

40:45

I didn't know what to get you. And she said, a man can never go wrong getting his wife a jewelry.

40:55

So just anybody else that's been in the doghouse, you'll never go wrong getting them a jewelry.

41:01

Well, we are discussing a very important topic today.

41:10

Let me say this also. Go ahead. I want your listeners to understand,

41:16

I'm not a purist. All right. I do not believe that a candidate has to be perfect.

41:22

In fact, I've told people that unless the

41:28

Lord Jesus Christ himself runs this president, we're never going to get anybody perfect.

41:34

We're always going to have a clay vessel as president, no matter who it is.

41:40

All right. But when people pretend to be something they are not, that is when

41:49

I will draw a line, especially when it comes to Christianity. And that's why we called the document

41:56

For the Sake of the Gospel. I didn't want to, in the document, tell people how to vote.

42:02

I just simply said, if you're going to endorse Mitt Romney publicly, then you need to draw a distinction between biblical

42:11

Christianity and his Mormon belief. We do not believe the same thing.

42:16

Right. And the situation in evangelicalism has not improved since the days when

42:26

Mitt Romney was running for president. It has gotten perhaps even worse with the rise of the

42:37

Christianization or the Christianizing of Mormonism because evangelicals are so desperate to seek out and find allies in the culture wars.

42:50

And Glenn Beck, as wonderful as he has been bringing us information about politics, he is either unconsciously or consciously masquerading as a

43:05

Christian. He is not a Christian. I have had Reformed brothers in Christ swear to me that he must be a

43:15

Christian, that he must be saved. And I tell them, I have to remind them, look, if he was really a born -again believer, he'd be shouting from the rooftops that he made a major break from a cult known as the

43:31

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. He wouldn't keep that quiet. And people have to remember over and over again,

43:39

I remind people, cults and other false groups very often use the same vocabulary as Christians do, but have a different dictionary.

43:49

And I think we have to highlight, just so people know what we're talking about, we have to highlight why the

43:56

Mormon cult is such a dangerous religion. As James White has said many times, including very recently on his

44:03

Dividing Line webcast, they are, the Mormons, are even more polytheistic than Hindus.

44:13

They make Hindus blush regarding the number of gods they believe exist because it's an infinite number.

44:20

They believe they, if they are obedient Mormons, will become gods in the afterlife of their own planet.

44:29

Their fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, in 1898—well, actually, that's when he was the president, 1898 through 1901—he said,

44:42

And as man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may be.

44:50

They believe, as you were mentioning before, in eternal progression, which means they will become gods of their own planet.

44:57

They don't even believe that Jesus Christ was God on this earth, but he is now. But even though they believe he is

45:05

God now, they are not to worship him because he is a god of a different planet. And they are about as polar opposite to biblical

45:16

Christianity as a religion can be. They do not believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

45:26

They have a completely different understanding of the cross of Christ. Christ did not completely and perfectly pay for the sins of his people on the cross.

45:36

We could go on and on and on with the dangerous and satanic teachings.

45:44

Speaking of satanic, they believe that Satan was the stepbrother of Jesus, correct?

45:53

Not stepbrother. He was actually the spirit brother. Okay, spirit brother, okay.

46:00

By the way, as Jerry mentioned before, somebody who is an expert on Mormonism is

46:08

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can go to aomin .org,

46:14

a -o -m -i -n, that stands for Alpha and Omega Ministries, a -o -m -i -n .org.

46:19

And if you type in Mormonism, if you type in Latter -day Saints or anything connected with the

46:26

Mormon cult in his search engine, you'll have a ton of stuff, including some debates that he participated in with Mormons.

46:37

But this really stems from—I'm wondering if you agree, and in fact, I'm positive you agree, but I'm asking anyway— this really stems—what

46:50

I'm talking about is the Christianizing of cult members like Mormons.

46:58

When evangelicals do this, this stems from a lack of trust in the sovereignty of God over all things and an impatience with Him.

47:11

And they believe, these evangelicals, that we can't just trust in God to rise up among us the president that He wants to govern the

47:27

United States. We have to make sure, even if it includes electing a person in the cult who is actually very dishonest, because not only does he claim to be

47:42

Christian, Mitt Romney, but he really made a major shift in his profession to be, in appearance, much more conservative.

47:54

And a lot of people saw through that. But as we were saying, this did not begin and die with Mitt Romney.

48:02

It's going on today, perhaps more than ever. Let me say this.

48:10

This is something, when it comes to the Republican Party—now, just to let people know, there have only been two times that I have not voted for the

48:21

Republican nominee, all right? Mitt Romney and John McCain.

48:27

John McCain was about as anti -Christian as you can be. If people remember the primary in 2000, when he was running against George W.

48:38

Bush, he made that quite clear. So I didn't vote for him.

48:44

Was it 2000? Yeah, it was. No, it was 2008. My bad.

48:50

My bad. 2008. But no, he said it in the year 2000, and so that's why

48:56

I didn't support him in 2008. But then they nominated Mitt Romney, and like I said,

49:03

I lost a lot of friends over that. Not seeing counsel lost a lot of support.

49:11

I mean, I had people that were supporting us that they just dropped us.

49:16

Not a word. I had one guy that called me up like in 2016, and he said, you were right about Mitt Romney.

49:26

I was wrong. Will you forgive me? I said, Jack, I never held it against you.

49:35

Now, why is it that since we who are born again believers have rarely had the opportunity, especially when you're talking about voting for the president of the

49:51

United States, local government officials might be different depending upon where you live, where there may be a lot more opportunities to vote for truly born again brothers in Christ.

50:07

But to be voting for a genuinely regenerate person for president is extremely rare.

50:15

Right now, immediately off the top of my head, I can't even think of one instance. I know that George W.

50:22

Bush made a profession of faith. I know that even before him, you're right,

50:29

Ronald Reagan, who was not known to be a member of any church. And Jimmy Carter before him was one of the most well -known professing born again

50:43

Christians to have become president. But he believes in so many things contrary to Christian teaching that it's hard for me to swallow the genuineness.

50:57

I'm not saying that you have to vote for a Christian. My problem with Mitt Romney was he's a

51:06

Mormon and he claims he's a Christian. That was my problem with him. So it was more of the masquerade that he was claiming to be

51:14

Christian. Yes, yes. And Donald Trump's spiritual well -being,

51:21

I hear back and forth. He's a Christian and he may not be a Christian. This much I know

51:26

Donald Trump is an imperfect vessel. All right. Just like all of us.

51:31

We are totally depraved. He's made a lot of mistakes, you know, but I am not requiring him to make a profession of faith to get my vote.

51:42

That I'm not doing. It's just the fact that he doesn't come out and say, hey,

51:49

I worship a doorknob and worshiping a doorknob is

51:55

Christian. If he said that, I'd never vote for him. Now, the problem is, though, that that is an accepted part of the rhetoric, the way that Mormons speak in our day and age.

52:19

They do identify as Christians of just another denomination.

52:26

In fact, I can remember there being a stark contrast from when

52:32

I was a new Christian in the 1980s and invited a Mormon elder into my home, responding to a

52:40

TV commercial to have a Book of Mormon hand delivered to my house by a

52:45

Mormon elder. I did it on purpose so I could ambush him with the gospel. And there was a stark contrast between his rhetoric of being a part of the one true church.

53:03

And when I have bumped into Mormons in the street here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I moved in 2014, there are a lot of Mormons around here.

53:14

And I have bumped into Mormons on several occasions, either in the street or at the library and other places.

53:23

And when I greet them and provoke conversation with them, the new rhetoric that they are taught to say is,

53:36

You've probably heard that we think that we're the only Christians on the face of the earth. Well, that's not true.

53:41

We're just another denomination of Christians. We're Christians just like you. So whether or not they are intentionally lying is not really able—we're not able to know that.

53:58

They are behaving and speaking in a way that they are told to.

54:05

So that adds to the problem. In fact, we'll pick you up where I left off there when we return from our midway break.

54:14

And once again, if you'd like to call—if you would like to email us a question of your own for Jerry Johnson, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

54:24

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

54:32

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

54:52

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

55:15

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

55:39

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

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Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

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That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.

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That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

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Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.

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The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

58:50

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

59:02

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

59:10

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise.

59:16

And yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

59:41

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

59:48

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com Hello, my name is

59:56

Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

01:00:03

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Apple's iTunes app by typing ironsharpensironradio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time day or night.

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Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

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podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

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Reform Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the

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Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

01:01:22

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

01:01:31

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

01:01:37

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:01:46

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

01:01:52

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

01:01:58

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

01:02:04

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

01:02:11

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

01:02:17

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

01:02:25

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:02:32

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Truly grateful for many things that the

01:02:47

Trump administration has ushered in, but here's something that seriously concerns me.

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On July 18th, President Donald Trump signed the Genius Act into law.

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This new law allows financial institutions to convert your hard -earned dollars into stable coins, a digital token backed by $37 trillion in national debt.

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They will not need your approval. You hand over your dollars, and they give you a trackable, programmable, freezeable token.

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This sounds like something out of a science fiction movie. They get control, and you get surveillance.

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Stable coins are not freedom. They're a digital leash. This is one step away from a full -blown digital currency.

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How stable is a stable coin? If your account is hacked, or if the power grid goes down for a period of time, you can instantly be locked out.

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01:04:34

Tell them Chris from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio sent you. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:04:50

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

01:04:59

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

01:05:14

God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

01:05:36

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

01:05:45

Armored Republic exists to equip free men with tools of liberty to defend God -given rights against the twin threats of tyranny and chaos.

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If you own a rifle to resist tyrants and criminals, then you should own body armor and a med kit for the same reasons.

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Civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and, by comparison, reducing the advantages of centralized power.

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The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king. As Americans, we hate the word king applied to any mere man.

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We are Armored Republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ.

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Arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com. Welcome back.

01:06:42

Before I return to my fascinating conversation with my dear friend

01:06:48

Jerry Johnson, who is a renowned apologist and documentarian, most well -known perhaps for the webcast series

01:06:58

Against the World and also his highly acclaimed documentary

01:07:05

DVD series Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, where we'll return to our discussion on Mormonism, a warning of the rise of Christianizing a cult as evangelicals seek for allies in the cultural wars.

01:07:21

We'll return to that conversation momentarily, but I have some important reminders. Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

01:07:32

I'm urging you, please go to ironsharpendesignradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

01:07:40

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card. And if you prefer snail mail, sending a physical check at your post office to a physical address, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpendesignradio .com

01:07:58

where you can mail your checks made payable to ironsharpendesignradio .com.

01:08:04

If you want to advertise with us, whether it's your business, your church, parachurch ministry, your private professional practice like a law firm, a medical firm, maybe it's just a special event that you want to promote.

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Whatever it is, if it's compatible with my beliefs, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

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And that is especially true because if you haven't heard, we just lost two of our largest advertising clients.

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And folks, we are in urgent need of your financial help to replace and replenish that huge loss of income.

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One of those advertisers, as you may remember, is

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who was a faithful supporter of Ironsharpendesignradio, but they were forced, sadly, to close their doors permanently last

01:09:09

Friday, was their last day. And so we are without their income, without their support, and we need your help more than ever before.

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And there was another large advertiser we recently lost as well, and we are on the brink of losing a third now that I'm thinking about it.

01:09:33

So if you would like to help us remain on the air, please go to ironsharpendesignradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

01:09:40

But keep in mind, as urgently as we need your financial help, I never want anybody cutting into the finances that you have set aside for your

01:09:50

Lord's Day giving to your own church, where you're a member, in order to bless us financially.

01:09:56

Please never do that. And also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you send us a gift.

01:10:06

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and even trivial purposes, well, please share some of that money with us if you really love this show and don't want it to go off the air.

01:10:24

Go to ironsharpendesignradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful,

01:10:33

Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where you live in the world,

01:10:39

I have helped many people in my audience spanning the entire globe find churches in their area, sometimes even just a couple of minutes from where they live, that are biblically faithful, that may be you too.

01:10:53

So no matter where in the world you live, if you're without a biblically faithful church home, send me an email to chrisorensen at gmail .com

01:11:01

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jerry Johnson.

01:11:08

That's chrisorensen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:11:15

Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. And before I go on to any listener questions, please speak clearly as to why, for instance, and this is just one of many issues that we are confronted with as Christians, but why is it that you would not vote for someone like Mitt Romney or another

01:11:49

Mormon? Let's say Mike Lee, who's a Mormon, who's a very likable guy. I agree with him on so many things.

01:11:56

If he was running for president, he would be a very appealing option, but he's a

01:12:04

Mormon. And would likely, even if he wasn't consciously lying, he would be referring to himself likely as a

01:12:15

Christian. What would you do with that kind of a dilemma? It has to be that question,

01:12:22

I guess. There's nobody else here other than me and you. If I said

01:12:32

I'm a Mormon, I'm not a Christian, then I could possibly vote for him because it's not claiming that he is a

01:12:41

Christian because Mormonism is not Christian. But would

01:12:47

I vote for him? I don't know. I would have to think possibly at times. Now, understand,

01:12:53

I believe Barack Obama put us on this path to a more sociocommunist view than anybody.

01:13:02

I believe Barack Obama was terrible. So, I mean,

01:13:08

I'm not going to vote for somebody just because I don't want the other person to get it.

01:13:14

I'm not going to do that. And so when Barack Obama or Mitt Romney ran against Barack Obama, I wasn't going to vote for Mitt Romney.

01:13:23

I wasn't. And I didn't. But if Mike Lee came out and said, yeah,

01:13:30

I'm a Mormon, see, if Biddy Johnson would have said a

01:13:35

Mormon church was attacked, you know, then I wouldn't have any beef. But he said a

01:13:40

Christian church. Well, it wasn't a Christian church. It was a Mormon church. I still think it's just as bad if a

01:13:47

Mormon church or a Christian church got attacked, but they're not the same. Yes.

01:13:53

And that's what bothered me. Yes. And so when it comes to our day -to -day lives as Christians, the problems far surpass merely what lever you pull or push or slide or however you're doing it these days in a voting booth.

01:14:18

There are people who, because of the rhetoric of evangelicals, like I'm not sure if Benny Johnson is an evangelical, but the way that he identified that Mormon church that was tragically set ablaze as a

01:14:38

Christian church, there may be very naive people who think that's just another option for them to consider joining.

01:14:49

Like I said, I had a lot of people get upset with me about my not supporting

01:14:55

Mitt Romney. And I kept telling people, look, the Republican Party does not own my vote.

01:15:02

My thoughts are captive to the word of God. Period. I don't care what you say.

01:15:09

That's where I'm—and that brings us to kind of—because what we did was we not only wrote this document, the paragraph that I read to you before, but we pointed out a couple of instances where Mormonism did not believe like Christianity.

01:15:30

Let me give you one. The doctrine of barbalation. Now, we believe in sola scriptura.

01:15:36

The Bible alone is the word of God. Period. And, I mean, my preacher could be wrong.

01:15:46

I don't know if Roland's listening, but he could be wrong. I could be wrong.

01:15:52

You could be wrong. The early church fathers could be wrong. But the word of God is not wrong.

01:16:00

Now, let me read to you here what I wrote, all right? The Lord Church teaches that there are four separate writings which constitute the word of God.

01:16:11

These works include the Book of Mormon, the—what is it ?—Doctrines

01:16:17

and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible. And there is a statement of faith.

01:16:24

Oracle of Faith, let me say that. It says, we believe the Bible is the word of God as long as it's translated properly.

01:16:33

I mean, they don't say that about any of the other books. The Book of Mormon, the

01:16:39

Doctrines or Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. And the funny thing is they can never point to anything that says, ah, see, that there is misinterpreted.

01:16:52

It's just an excuse. They bring doubt on the Bible. And the—let me read to you here from the

01:17:01

Second London Baptist Confession, all right? The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life is either expressively set down or necessarily contained in the

01:17:19

Holy Scriptures, to which nothing at any time is to be added, either by new revelation of the

01:17:25

Spirit or by the traditions of men. I agree with that. I give it a hearty amen.

01:17:32

But the Mormon Church does not believe that. They believe that they get extra revelation from these other three books that contradict.

01:17:43

They add to the word of God, and then they contradict what it says. By the way, it's always music to my ears to hear a

01:17:50

Presbyterian read from the 1689 London Baptist Confession. I tell everybody, once we get to heaven, everybody's going to end up being a

01:18:08

Presbyterian. So that is one thing, like I said,

01:18:16

I am a strong believer in Sowa Scripture, and I know the Reformed Church, as in most of the

01:18:23

Evangelical Confessing Church. And what we need to realize is, when that person is standing up there, whether they are aware of it or not, they're adding to the

01:18:34

Word of God, and then they're distorting it. I liked what James White said on the

01:18:41

Amazing Grace documentary. He said… Actually, he wasn't in that documentary.

01:18:48

I'm sorry, I meant the Marks of the Colt. Right. Why did he get on the Amazing Grace? Right. He said something,

01:19:00

I said, well, I wanted you on the Amazing Grace. He goes, no, I missed that opportunity, didn't

01:19:05

I? So we put him in the Marks of the Colt, but he said, in the

01:19:11

Marks of the Colt, he said it is evil to pervert the Word of God.

01:19:17

And it is. It is evil. And this is what they are doing. This is what

01:19:22

Mormonism does, they pervert the Word of God. And there's no excuse for it, and no

01:19:30

Christian should ever defend that, ever. Now, the second thing is the nature of God, and this is another point that we have a contention with, though.

01:19:42

Now, let me read the statement here. The Mormon Church teaches that God the Father, whom they will call

01:19:49

Heavenly Father, once was a man of flesh and blood that came from a planet near a star called

01:19:56

Kolok. And through his obedience to the same teachings espoused by Latter -day

01:20:04

Saints today, he was elevated to godhood sometime after his death.

01:20:10

In fact, according to the Mormon Church, there are many gods like Heavenly Father throughout the universe.

01:20:18

So basically, God had a father, and his father had a father, and his father had a father, and infinitum.

01:20:27

And you can start to see, you mentioned earlier, that they're more polytheistic than the

01:20:33

Hindus. That's true, because if you ask them who was the original unmoved mover, they will tell you that is an illegitimate question, or at least that's the answer they used to give.

01:20:45

I don't know if they're giving another one today. But James White or James Walker would be better to answer that one.

01:20:53

But it is not Christian theology in their view of God or their view of the

01:21:00

Bible. Okay, we have a question.

01:21:07

Let's see here. We have Marty in Levittown, Long Island, New York.

01:21:14

And Marty, if you are not a member of a good church out there, I know of an excellent one, pastored by Caleb Bunch—Levittown Baptist Church, that is—believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

01:21:28

But Marty says, is there any way where we could embrace a member of the

01:21:36

Mormon cult as a brother in Christ, because they may be ignorant of the falsehoods that that group teaches?

01:21:46

No? There's no way. I draw this illustration in the

01:21:52

Mark 7 cult, and I'm probably not going to do it justice now, but suppose

01:21:58

I went to a Mormon church and I told them I'm a Mormon, but I do not believe that Joseph Smith had all the revelation.

01:22:09

Actually, there was somebody that came after Joseph Smith, and his name was Earl, and Earl believed that God was actually a woman and that we should all run around naked and only eat fruit.

01:22:26

And, you know, a bunch of weird doctrines— You put a lot of thought into this.

01:22:40

Because they believe that you have to pass by the bar of Joseph Smith to enter into the eternal bliss, to be a god of your own planet.

01:22:52

So they wouldn't accept me as a Mormon if I came up with a bunch of weird doctrines.

01:22:58

And, like, they now, they would. So I would say, no, I would say you're actually going to do a better witness to them by not accepting them.

01:23:08

Now, that doesn't mean you can't be nice to them. Let me tell you this real quick. I was three years old when my grandfather died, so I don't remember him that much.

01:23:19

I have little flashes about him. But he had a heart issue, and he died in 1969.

01:23:27

And he had had a triple bypass earlier that year, and he was confined to his home.

01:23:34

And who came by every day but the Mormon missionaries? They came and visited him.

01:23:41

And I didn't know this until much later in life that he had actually been baptized in the

01:23:47

Mormon church. Did he understand what they believed? No, because he probably wasn't even a

01:23:52

Christian. Yokes. But I tell people it's one of the reasons we need to get out there, and we need to visit people.

01:24:01

We need to find out the people who are homebound.

01:24:06

And we need to visit them. We need to take them books or pamphlets or whatever, and just listen with them and be their friends and pray for them and do whatever we can.

01:24:18

Because if we don't, there are going to be Mormon missionaries. They're going to be

01:24:23

Jehovah's Witness. There are going to be a whole host of other people that will, and they see value in this.

01:24:31

And unfortunately, most of the Christian churches does not. Now, I may be in disagreement with you over what

01:24:42

Marty in Levittown asked. And here— I've not understood their question.

01:24:49

Well, this is the way I'm going to differentiate. He said, is it possible for someone to be a brother in the

01:25:03

Mormon cult if they don't understand what that cult teaches?

01:25:09

I think that there's a possibility that a truly regenerate person could mistakenly be in the

01:25:16

Mormon cult and believe in the true gospel. But they will, once they recognize what that cult actually teaches, they will be compelled to leave.

01:25:34

I wouldn't consider them a brother. I wouldn't call them a brother. I'm not going to consider them that right hand of God.

01:25:40

You're right. I agree with that. I agree with that. There was a guy a few years ago,

01:25:51

I'm sure he's passed away by now, and he actually became a

01:25:57

Christian through reading the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:26:03

That doesn't mean I'm going to go out and stand on the street corner and pass out New World Translation.

01:26:10

I believe it is a perversion of the Bible and the gospel, and so I'm not going to do it.

01:26:19

He became a Christian while he was Jehovah's Witness, but while he stayed in that church, it wasn't long.

01:26:26

We're maybe talking like three or four days long. And David left the

01:26:33

Jehovah's Witness when he told them, you know, he's holding all the scriptures to the elders.

01:26:40

And they said to him, you sound like one of those born -agains. And he left a few days later.

01:26:49

Okay, we have Elizabeth, and she is in Lexington, Kentucky, and Elizabeth says, what would be a handful of books that you could recommend so that I could learn more about Mormonism?

01:27:11

Well, I would again repeat the website of Alpha Omega Ministries, aomin .org.

01:27:19

Dr. James R. White has written at least two books on Mormonism.

01:27:27

One is Letters to a Mormon Elder, and one is

01:27:32

Is the Mormon My Brother? And that is very often confused with the biography

01:27:41

Dr. White wrote about me, Is That Moron My Brother? I said that in one of the debate introductions years ago.

01:27:51

But he is a thoroughgoing, knowledgeable expert on Mormonism.

01:27:59

And I know that you mentioned earlier a former

01:28:05

Mormon. Was it Jack Walker? I can't remember right now. James Walker.

01:28:10

James Walker. Not to be confused with Johnny Walker, black or green or red.

01:28:18

He's got a lot of stuff on Mormonism.

01:28:25

They are actively involved in witnessing to Mormons and also going into churches and explaining to people how to witness to Mormons.

01:28:35

And they got a real good ministry. I was with Watchman Fellowship in the early 90s.

01:28:42

I've known James for a long time. And I don't know if I would call him reformed.

01:28:52

You know, I don't know. At the least, he's an evangelical.

01:28:58

He may be more reformed. I don't know. Nothing to do with Watchman Knee or anything like that.

01:29:06

They started out with this guy named David Encke, and they originally started out as a

01:29:13

Jehovah's Witness ministry. And then they started expanding and expanding. You mean to oppose the

01:29:18

Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. You just said a

01:29:25

Jehovah's Witness ministry. Sorry. That was a ministry to Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:29:31

Right. And then I met James Walker. Now, James is now the president of Watchman Fellowship.

01:29:40

Okay. Well, yeah. I actually, at your suggestion, I called Mr. Walker and left a message in his voicemail.

01:29:50

So hopefully he'll get back to me and want to do some kind of an interview. And if you'd like to, maybe you could even join me as a co -host.

01:30:00

He is great. I would love to do that, James. I'm trying to think of something derogatory to say about him.

01:30:14

James is a good guy. He's a very good guy. Loves the Lord Jesus. I mean, he's a really good guy.

01:30:21

So you're not going to go wrong. And the great thing is, you know, he being a fourth -generation

01:30:26

Mormon, he grew up in the Mormon church, and he knows all about it. I believe

01:30:33

I'm going to let him tell the story. But I believe he had a temple recommended. I believe he had been at the temple.

01:30:40

But I'm going to let him explain all of that to you. All right. But as far as books go, the funny thing is,

01:30:51

I haven't really read about it since 1990. So I don't know a lot of the new books that are out.

01:30:59

But Walter Morton's book, The Kingdom of the Cults, it has a chapter on Mormonism, and it's very good.

01:31:09

So I would give that. Well, thank you, Elizabeth. Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and spreading the word to others about the show in Kentucky and beyond.

01:31:25

Let's see here. We have—okay, that's actually a question about a different issue that I won't read on the air.

01:31:40

Sorry about that. Let's see. We have

01:31:48

Peter in Baltimore, Maryland.

01:31:54

I also know of an excellent church out there, Peter, if you're not already a number one, Baltimore Bible Church.

01:32:03

In fact, the pastor there, George Lawson, is going to be on my program next week,

01:32:09

I believe it is. Yeah, the 16th,

01:32:16

Thursday the 16th. But Peter asks, have you ever seen someone from the

01:32:28

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints come to Christ and abandon their cultic beliefs?

01:32:36

Now, I have not. Well, you know one, though, but you just mentioned Jack Walker.

01:32:42

Yeah, James Walker. I mean,

01:32:49

I know of a bunch that did, but I have witnessed to a lot of Mormons. I've seen

01:32:54

Jehovah's Witnesses do it, because the thing with Jehovah's Witnesses, I can take one of their earlier books from like 1920, and I can show them contradictions of what they believe now.

01:33:09

And that starts a little crack in it. Tracy and I had witnessed this girl down in Florida.

01:33:18

She was a Jehovah's Witness, her and her husband were. She was raised in it. Her husband became a

01:33:23

Jehovah's Witness because of her. And we, I will never forget, we were sitting there talking about salvation by grace through faith, and she didn't understand, and just didn't understand.

01:33:39

And we had been meeting with them for about a month, and she was in her bed one night, and she was reading something.

01:33:46

I don't even know if it had anything to do with Christianity or Jehovah's Witness. And she started thinking about grace, and it hit her mind.

01:33:56

She goes, oh, it was like her eyes were opened. But when it comes to Mormons, I have witnessed the thing is they have a living prophet that can override what was taught in the past or what was in Scripture, you know.

01:34:13

So like in 1978, before 1978, they didn't allow black people in the church, or I should say, they didn't allow black men into the priesthood.

01:34:25

Then in 1978, it changed that. Right. So that's one of the things when it comes to Mormonism that's hard.

01:34:37

You can't go through necessarily and show them these contradictions because they might just go, oh, well, we've got new life, you know.

01:34:48

Yes. I've personally never seen it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

01:34:55

The Lord just was pleased that He used me as that vessel at that time. I've witnessed the gospel, too.

01:35:05

You know, Paul waters. I'm not counting myself as Paul.

01:35:13

Paul plants, Paul waters, but it's God who gives the increase.

01:35:18

So, you know, I'm going to look at it that way, and hopefully it'll do good.

01:35:24

Let me say this real quick also, Chris. Go ahead. I was at a church one time.

01:35:33

I won't tell you what kind. It was a broad evangelical church. You mean there was only women there?

01:35:39

A broad evangelical church? Sorry, folks.

01:35:46

Southern Baptist Church. They were not Reformed, and in fact, I wasn't Reformed at the time.

01:35:52

I started becoming more and more Reformed, but I asked for a show of hands.

01:35:58

And, you know, Baptists, they love to ask for a question. And I said, you've got two men,

01:36:04

Man A and Man B. Now, Man A is required by God to preach the gospel to 100 men during his lifetime, and all 100 come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

01:36:21

How many of y 'all would like to hear this man preach? And every hand went up.

01:36:27

And I said, now, Man B is ordained to preach the gospel to 100 people in his life, but none of them come to Christ.

01:36:35

How many of y 'all would like to hear him preach? And there was confusion.

01:36:42

And I said, guys, that is the problem. Whether the word is preached is the issue, not who comes to Christ.

01:36:54

You know, all planets, Apollo's waters, but it's

01:36:59

God who gives the increase. If Man B was as faithful as Man A, then the word of God was preached, and we should all want to hear it.

01:37:10

Amen. By the way, Peter in Baltimore, Maryland, if you go to iantrepanzionradio .com

01:37:17

and type into the search engine Mormon, I have interviewed other folks other than James White, who has written about Mormonism, but I have interviewed folks who were

01:37:31

Mormons before being rescued out of that cult by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

01:37:38

Even years ago, I don't know if it's in the current archive. I have to ask my webmaster.

01:37:44

But on the old show on the WNYG, 1440 AM in Babylon, Long Island, when

01:37:51

I first started iantrepanzionradio .com, I interviewed a woman who was in a polygamist sect of the

01:38:00

Mormons. But if you type in Mormon, though, even on the current archive, you'll get a number of things on that subject.

01:38:12

We're going to go to our final break right now. And once again, if you have a question, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:38:20

As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:38:29

Don't go away. We'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

01:38:51

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

01:39:44

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

01:39:52

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01:39:58

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org.

01:40:04

That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

01:40:17

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

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01:40:38

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

01:40:47

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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01:41:03

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

01:41:26

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

01:41:34

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:42:14

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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01:42:28

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:42:45

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01:42:52

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:43:48

Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:43:58

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:44:15

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:44:21

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:44:35

Lord's Day in worshipping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:44:44

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:44:52

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:44:58

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:45:13

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:47:07

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:47:13

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

01:47:21

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

01:47:37

God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

01:47:45

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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01:48:49

But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

01:49:02

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, and the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

01:49:10

In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

01:49:15

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

01:49:21

I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

01:49:29

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver him.

01:49:41

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or the

01:49:48

Bronx, or New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

01:49:58

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

01:50:07

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:50:26

God bless you. Welcome back, folks. I also don't want you to forget that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Botafuco &

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Please call him at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,

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1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. And by the way, it's very important that I mention that this is for accident and injury cases and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states of the

01:51:24

United States. So no matter where you live, in the United States, that is, call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit

01:51:31

Dan's website at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Make sure you tell Daniel P. Botafuco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm,

01:51:39

Botafuco & Associates, from Chris Ornzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:51:45

We have returned to my dear friend, Jerry Johnson, and he is most well -known, if you've just tuned us in, most well -known for his webcast series

01:51:59

Against the World, which, God willing, who knows, maybe he'll revive it.

01:52:05

It has come to an end a number of years ago, but I know that a lot of people would love to see him return to hosting that.

01:52:14

Also, he is most well -known for the DVD documentary series

01:52:20

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, and we have been talking about how

01:52:28

Mormonism is on the rise as being Christianized by evangelicals who are desperately seeking allies in the culture wars.

01:52:40

And one thing that you have emailed to me, Jerry, is this really valuable and handy and simplified document on addressing all of the major, or at least many of the major heresies of Mormons, or the

01:53:06

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. And if anybody in the audience wants me to email this to you,

01:53:13

I will. Keep in mind that it was originally written to alert the public about the fallacy that was being perpetuated by Mitt Romney nearly two decades ago.

01:53:33

Actually, I think it was longer than two decades ago now, about being a Christian, since he is a

01:53:41

Mormon, but that doesn't mean that the document has any less value, just because that's old news, because of this handy bullet -point list of the things where Mormons and Christianity are very different.

01:54:05

He has a section of this, Why Mormonism is Not Christian, and he goes through the explanation of the doctrine of revelation, the nature of God, the person of Jesus Christ, the fall of Adam into sin, salvation, other anti -Christian doctrines taught by Mormons, and a conclusion and summary.

01:54:32

So once again, if you would like me to forward this email to you, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:54:42

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and I will get that to you. Jerry, I'd like you to, in several minutes, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

01:54:58

Hi. Brother, one thing, I sent you that document. If you want to publish that on your website, go ahead and do it, all right?

01:55:11

I don't need any credit. Just do it. That would be fine. One of the things

01:55:17

I did want to get into, but we're not going to have time, is the person of Jesus Christ.

01:55:24

But I would encourage people to read that, because you need to know what

01:55:29

Mormonism says about the Lord Jesus. And that is very important. Can you summarize it?

01:55:36

Well, I don't know. Mormonism believes that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

01:55:45

They believe that God the Father had a wife who, they don't say it in proper words, but she's basically

01:55:54

God the Mother. And through a conjugal act, they had our oldest brother,

01:56:02

Jesus, and his brother, Lucifer. And they equate the natures of the two.

01:56:10

Now, they would admit that they're different, you know, in the sense that one is good and one is evil, but they equate the natures as being the same.

01:56:22

They're from the same mother and father. Christianity doesn't believe that the

01:56:28

Lord Jesus had a mother in that sense. He had a physical mother that was conceived by the

01:56:38

Holy Spirit. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. There are so many teachings about the

01:56:46

Lord Jesus that should be repugnant. I mean, repugnant to Christians.

01:56:52

Well, all of a sudden, you've got a very, very base

01:56:58

Jesus, if you will. Even the physical Jesus, and this is not widely known amongst

01:57:05

Mormons, a Mormon that I mentioned earlier who stormed out of my house in the 80s, who

01:57:12

I invited to my home responding to a TV commercial to have a book of Mormon delivered to my house by a

01:57:19

Mormon elder. And when they say elder, it's usually a young guy in his 20s who's a missionary.

01:57:25

But he stormed out of my house when I told him that Brigham Young taught that Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb physically by the sexual union of Elohim who tabernacled in flesh and literally had sex with Mary.

01:57:46

And he didn't believe it. He didn't believe it. So I told him, you've got to look it up. I called him a couple of weeks after he stormed out of my house, and he said, oh,

01:57:57

I haven't had time. I'll talk to you later, and hung up on me. I can't remember if it was

01:58:04

Brigham Young or Orson Pratt. James Walker or James White would know it better than me.

01:58:10

But one of them made a statement that the Holy Spirit overshadowed

01:58:16

Mary and the Holy Spirit is about six foot four and has blonde hair. And I was like, are you kidding?

01:58:24

And people bought this. I didn't hear that part of it.

01:58:32

Ask one of them. Like I said, I haven't really studied this since the 1990s.

01:58:40

I did some study back in 2012 when we wrote this document.

01:58:45

But go ahead and publish it online, and that way people can read it, and they can become more familiar.

01:58:52

Now, what I would say, I wouldn't go up to a Mormon missionary and say you're lying, because I think you're right.

01:58:59

They probably don't know. They're probably ignorant. And I would just point out to them, well, that's not what the

01:59:08

Bible teaches. I mean, we have to trust that God is going to be the one that opens up their eyes.

01:59:15

We're never going to argue them into the kingdom of Christ. We have to be a good witness.

01:59:21

We have to be a faithful witness. And I believe we also have to be a kind witness. So your average

01:59:29

Mormon, even the one that attends the Mormon church, they don't know about this.

01:59:35

They don't know about the law of eternal permission. They don't know a lot of the ins and outs, and I know we've got to go.

01:59:43

Yep. And I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest, as you always are. And I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater