169: The Journey to Big God Theology (Matt Mays)

Christ the King and the Local Church

To the Ruled Church Podcast. This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas?

You see that one in Pechote, Mexico? Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres, down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it. The church is not a democracy, it's a monarchy.

Christ is king. You can't be Christian without a local church.

You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible-believing church, and spend your life serving Jesus in a local, visible congregation.

Well, do you have your Christmas tree up yet? No, sir, we do not. This is the first Wednesday, at least. You and I are talking on October 30th, but when this comes out, it's the first Wednesday of November, when do you guys typically put up your Christmas tree?

Well, it's a fight between me and my wife. She'd probably have it up right now if it was up to her, but I'm up. So you're the traditionalist, like you can't do it until after Thanksgiving? Oh, no, it's not tradition, it's just, you know, you're fighting kids off a tree, and breaking ornaments, and stuff like that.

So it's like, oh, well, let's have peace for as long as we can. That's part of the memories, brother. You're right. I can tell you this, I can tell you, because I'm feeling this right now, them boys are gonna grow up faster than you're ready for.

I believe you, I wholeheartedly believe you. My wife and I have been wrestling with emotions, because, well, it's a week from today, but by the time folks hear this, it's in two days, my oldest son's wedding, so, man, it goes by fast.

Man, I can't even imagine. Well, welcome to the Rural Church Podcast. I am your host, Allen Nelson, and I'm one of the pastors at Providence Baptist Church. We're a Reformed Baptist Church in Central Arkansas.

Reformed Theology and Its Effect on Christian Life

We hold to the 1689 Second Lenten Baptist Confession of Faith. We have a plurality of elders, myself and Pastor Jacob, who I'm very grateful for, and then we have a real blessed, we're blessed with a real godly and encouraging congregation and Matt officially, well, think about this, by the time the podcast comes out, you will officially be a part of this congregation, and so I thought we would just talk a little bit today.

We'll start out, you can just tell us a little bit about who is Matt Mays, but when people hear Reformed theology, well, sometimes people don't even know what it means at all, or sometimes they think about the mean guys on the internet or labels or debates or five points, but I just wanna talk about what these truths, almost said, what do these truths mean to you?

I don't mean it like that, but how have these truths impacted your love for Christ, your view of God, your understanding of salvation, your practical aspects of the Christian life? So that's kind of the angle we're gonna go to in this episode, but before we get to all that, let's just talk about you.

Matt Mays's Upbringing and Early Understanding of God

Who is Matt Mays, and then tell me how the Lord saved you. Well, I am originally from LA, and by LA, I mean lower Arkansas, so I came from the Southwest corner, the armpit of Arkansas, if you will. You've got that LA accent.

That's right, yeah, you're correct. I'm a proper Arkansan, I'd say, but I grew up in the same place. My father was my pastor until I was 20, until a few years ago, I'll say it that way, and a faithful man.

I was blessed to be raised in a God-fearing household, not everything done correctly, of course, because nobody does everything correctly, but I was extremely blessed, and I heard the gospel growing up lots of times.

Well, before I get into that, I guess I should say I am married to my wife, Jacey. We've been married now for nine years. It'll be 10 years this coming June, and we have four boys that the Lord has blessed us with.

Amen. Cash, trip, and Spurgeon, so I'm very grateful for that, but that's pretty much the most interesting things about me. That's pretty much who I am as far as that's concerned. The Lord, if you want me to talk about my salvation, or do you want to put a little space in between there?

No, that's good, brother. So you grew up lower Arkansas. Your dad, who I've met, great guy, was your pastor, and so talk about maybe your view of God early on. And I don't know, because we've talked through this.

You don't have to share all this, but you did have one of those experiences where, well, okay, I think I'm a Christian, but it turns out actual conversion came a little bit later, but just those early years, what'd you think about God, church, Christ?

Yeah, absolutely. So, well, probably in a lot of ways this is a very common Southern America sort of Bible Belt culture. You know, on my view of God, I knew that he was creator. I knew that he was, we definitely understood that he was loving.

I think that was a big push, especially during my childhood, as was, I think, in the case of most people, that we knew that God was love, and he was loving, and he loved us, and the same with us. Which is true, which we affirm.

Absolutely. Amen, yeah. For sure, and I think, in part, I knew a lot about God. I knew Bible stories. I knew certain attributes. Again, as I mentioned, love, and kindness, and goodness, which, again, we would affirm is correct about God.

But about Christ, I knew that he was the son of God. I knew that he was the second person of the Trinity. I knew that he died on the cross for our sins, because you hear that in VBS, and you hear that in church, and you hear that in Sunday school, and yes and amen.

I believe that and affirm that, for sure. And I knew that, to be saved, there was never, I will say this, in regards to whatever issues I may have, there was never a prayer prayed. That was not something that we ever did in church, that I was ever a part of.

There was times you go to other people's churches and things like that, and quote-unquote revival services and things, that you hear things like that. But there was never a sinner's prayer, or even close your eyes and raise your hand moment, nothing like that.

But that was my experience. That was my knowledge of God and Christ. Bible stories, God is love, Jesus loves you, he died on the cross for your sins, and you don't wanna go to hell, you wanna go to heaven.

That was the essentials of it. I'm not saying all that was taught, as much as it was gained, picked up from culture and lessons. Yeah, the hard thing, like we said, the hard thing about many of those things is they're true, but the problem is, the application of them is not so consistent.

For example, this isn't about your, I'm just speaking in general, that people will say, well, God is love, so that means two homosexuals can get married. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. The first premise is true, God is love, amen.

But it does not follow. In fact, it follows because God is love. He hates sin. But anyway, so is your coming to understand Reformed theology and where you believe that you were converted, is that one and the same, or is there a little bit of difference there, separation?

Matt's Conversion from a Childhood Profession to Saving Faith

There's a small amount of difference. There is a difference. So as you mentioned, I was, as a seven-year-old boy, I came as earnestly and as confidently as I could to my father, not even in the church service, and as genuine as a seven-year-old can be, I believe, I came to him and told him, I profess Christ.

I told him I trusted in Christ for my salvation. And I think for what I could understand, for which, of course, reason has little to do with salvation at all, but at the time, what I could reason is that I understood the facts about Jesus and about God from what limited knowledge I had.

But anyway, I made a profession and I was baptized. But then after several years, me being already married, two kids, and I think a third one on the way, the Lord in his kindness opened my eyes to my sinfulness and my need for a Savior.

And so at the time, I couldn't have pointed to the fact that this is why I definitely said there's a difference between my conversion and Reformed theology because I wouldn't have put a time to even say that I was saved in as much as I thought that I just needed to rededicate my life for whatever that means at that time.

And I came before the church and said that. And of course, I don't know how commonplace it is everywhere but that's pretty commonplace in the culture that I grew up in, for sure. And I'm not saying rededicating or choosing a point in time for people to hold you accountable is a bad thing, but that's actually not what happened.

What actually happened is the Lord saved me. And I say that there's a small difference because the things that I'd heard, my brother, he was pretty sold out in school. And he did, at the time, in high school, he did like Way of the Master and listened to a lot of Paul Washer sermons and things like that.

And so those are the voices that I knew, aside from my church. And like I said, my dad was faithful to the word. But those are the voices that I knew aside from, just in general, as I started listening to things, as I was truly saved, as I was born again, I was hungry for the word.

And so I had time to drive. Is there a something that you would say, well, this event was a major catalyst or this particular sermon or is it just like a conglomeration of things over a period of time, you think, when you come to faith in Christ?

Yeah, so I definitely, I think it's a conglomeration. I can kind of tell you, like there was a moment, I can't tell you exactly when it happened. There was a moment in which, and it actually came, I'd been listening to like, at the time, I closely followed politics.

You know, this is like COVID time frame stuff. And so I followed politics pretty close and I found myself not neatly in either camp or people at the time. And what I thought was that these politicians were, and I know this sounds like I'm venturing off, but it's not, it's actually crucial what I'm gonna say.

But the politicians, I realized that, I thought, man, these guys are liars. They're nothing but liars and thieves. And you know, they have, there's no honesty in them. And I was like, they don't care.

You know, I figured them to be just like the people in the WWE, you know, they'd probably yell at each other and then afterwards go have a beer together or something like that. So, and I thought to myself, these guys are just liars.

And then at whatever happened, and now I understand that the Lord, in his kindness opened my eyes and my heart, but he gave me a new heart. But I saw myself exactly as I saw those people, that I'm just like that.

I'm a sinner. I am a liar. And these things are not just bad because somebody says they are, but they are bad because they violate the law of God. And so there was a moment there, but there was really a conglomeration, for whatever reason, we started doing things, quote unquote, the right way.

You know, start showing the church regularly, you know, quit having foul language because my kids were listening is the real reason, you know, but things like that. And, but together the Lord, you know, worked it out to where that he saved me.

He saved me. And I just happened to be listening to like, Ray Comfort YouTube video or something like that. And, you know, he, of course he shared the gospel. And I finally clicked in my head, but like I said, it was sort of a moment and there was also sort of like a conglomeration of things that came about to bring that to fruition.

The Gospel: Humanity's Sin and Christ's Saving Work

Yeah, what is the gospel? Share that with our listeners here for, take a couple of minutes. Well, the gospel, the good news, and I think in order to properly understand the good news, I'd like to give the bad news first.

And the bad news first is that I, and you and everyone else, we have sinned. There is a standard of God's law that we've all fallen short of. We violated, we broke his law. We didn't just do bad things and we should be punished accordingly.

We broke God's law and we deserve death, hell and eternal punishment. It's not just a thing that happens. It's what we deserve. We deserve the wrath of God. And that is the state of all mankind after Adam that we've all sinned.

We've all broken his law, but we're not stuck in that state. There is good news and the good news in short, the gospel in short is Jesus Christ, that he was born of a virgin, that he lived a perfect life.

He was fully obedient to the law of God. He'd never sinned once in his words or in his deeds or his actions. And then he went willingly to the cross and he gave up his life and he bore the wrath of God upon himself, not just objectively, but in the place of us, he paid the penalty for our sins.

And then he was buried in the tomb and he rose on the third day. He spent 40 days here witnessing, and then he went, he ascended into heaven and he sits now, stands now at the right hand of God, interceding for those who would trust in him, so.

Yeah, amen, Matt, amen. So now you're a Christian, we're back in what, late 2020 or mid 2020? Yes, sir. So now you're a Christian and you're like, okay, and you're leading your family and you're young boys.

Discovering Reformed Theology Through Scripture and Preachers

And then I think you're about to say, you started listening to, this is the gateway drug for everybody, a man by the name of Paul Washer? For sure. So tell us about that. So really it was, I'd like to say, I just immediately, I think everybody wants to say that we came to reform theology because we read the Bible and we realized it's biblical theology, which is, there's truth to that, honestly, and I'm sure we can get to that here in a minute, but yeah, so what I had, I had a job where I originally, at first I had a job where I had some time where I could listen to things, but also I had time like traveling to and from the work.

And then later on I had a job where I literally drove a lot for work in between job locations and things like that. And so I was born again, God gave me a new heart, and along with that, I had a desire for the word.

And so in that time in between those places, I wanted to listen to something that was, that would build you up, that would edify. So I started listening to a lot of Christian podcasts, and some were quote unquote Christian, and some were actually Christian.

And just a big wide swath of things at first, but then as time would go, and through the word and the spirit, I began to discern things that are not good. And Paul Washer was, listening to his sermons, that was a big part of it.

There was a lot to do with, I'll be honest, I know that you could go into issues with some of these men, but people like John MacArthur and John Piper, those were big, big influences early on. And what I began to understand is that the men who I listened to, who seemed to be genuine, and seemed to have truth and love for Christ in their hearts, and cared about his word, they were the men who would lean in what I now know is the reform camp.

Some loosely, some a lot closer. Sermons from like Votie Bauckham, things like that. And the other ones, pretty early on and pretty quickly became known to me as these were not right, these were false, false things.

What a, like I'm just listening to this and I'm just thinking, and what a mercy of God that we live in the time that we live in. And I remember there was many, many days I'd be mowing or on the road, and I'd listen to, someone told me about, hey, you need to get this app, it's called Ligonier.

And I was like, okay. So I got it, I was like, why is it called Ligonier? I used to think it was named after Ligon Duncan. I had no idea, and then, but the Lord really used the teaching. This was back in like 2009.

And so it was really, so I'm just thinking about it, I'm hearing your testimony, and I'm thinking about these men that God used, MacArthur, and Piper, and Bauckham, and Paul Washer, and it's like, if we lived 100 years, man, if we lived 50 years ago, just don't have access to these things.

And so that in and of itself is a mercy of God. Absolutely, it is. So here's what I wanna know, is there a point in time, you're listening to all this, is there a point in time that you're like, wait a second, I think I'm a Calvinist?

Absolutely, there is, I can remember this pretty clearly. Okay. But there was, so I was, what I would do is I would listen to these people, and that would be the cutoff point. So I could listen to R .C. Sproul, or Piper, or John MacArthur, on any subject, even to the point of penal substitutionary atonement, but to the point where they would even use the word, they would say, I figured out pretty quick what the doctrines of grace meant, and what Calvinism, and the only thing I knew about Calvinism growing up was that it was a bad word, you don't say that word.

Those people are, that's not, I didn't know what it meant, I didn't know who John Calvin was, I didn't know any of that, never read his institutes or anything like that, so I didn't, that's the only thing I knew.

But as I said earlier, understanding the difference between these people who were clearly genuine, and these people who were not, that became the common thread was that they all appeared to be Calvinist.

And so I listened, at one point, one day I was coming back from work, and in God's providence and His kindness, I just happened to be, you know, the way I read the Bible when I first got saved was not entirely different from how I read it now, but I started out, I just started in the Gospel of Matthew, and I just started reading the New Testament, and I was hungry for it, I devoured it, and it just so happened in that time, I was in the book of Romans, it just started the book of Romans, and somehow, in some way, of course, I now would know it's God's providence, but I listened to a podcast from Piper, I think it was Ask Pastor John or something like that, and I was listening to an R .C. Sproul sermon, and R .C. Sproul mentioned reading the scripture with virgin eyes, and John Piper mentioned, it was something to do with Calvinism, the question on Ask Pastor John was something to do with Calvinism, and he mentioned, just read the book of Romans, is what he kept saying, just read the book of Romans, and I was like, okay, well, it just so happens, there I am, and it's like, I read it, and then I reread it, and then I reread it, and then I remember telling my wife in the bathroom of our house at the time, I'm like, hey, I think there's something to this, you're gonna have to hear me out for a minute, but.

Yeah, there's something, isn't there something, I was like, so we think about all these guys, and there's nuances of things that we would disagree on, but, so you got Piper, and MacArthur, and Sproul, and Vody, I'm not sure what I disagree with Vody on.

I agree. Paul Washer, James White, these are all kind of guys influential for me, and similar with you, and you're like, okay, well, you look along the spectrum, and these guys have some things that they disagree on among themselves, but there's this one thread that they all agree on, and it's this big God theology, this understanding of God's grace, sovereign grace and salvation, and it begins to be like, wait a second, there must be something to this, so when you told Jaycee, what'd she say, you're crazy, get out of my house, or what?

No, she, man, she was. She's like, I'm way ahead of you. Oh, yeah, not quite like that, but she, well, but I can't remember exactly, I think I read to her from Romans 8 and 9, and I read Ephesians 1 and 2, and I showed her several points where, and she was just kind of like, she really wondered more about the implications than I think she did about the truth, because it's kind of hard to argue against it once you read it in the scripture.

I don't know how you go your whole life in church, and even reading a lot of these passages, and not get to that point, but of course, I didn't have eyes to see, I can tell you that, and so it's hard to argue, and I don't think she even wanted to argue, and, but I think the thing that helped the most probably, and I think she would tell you this, is that she'd already seen the change that the Lord had done in my life, and I think she understood that I wasn't trying to lead us into a crazy path or anything like that, but just that, you know, I'll just say, God's gracious to me, and especially in my life, and she was gracious to hear me, and she, I'm not gonna say she immediately understood it and took to it, but I think she took to it probably overall quicker than I did, I'll be honest with you.

The Doctrines of Grace and God's Centrality in Salvation

All right, so you tell me, how would you, and maybe you wanna, yeah, just, what would your brief definition of the doctrines of grace be? I mean, if you wanna mention the five points, you can, but like, I'm just looking for that kind of summation of, okay, now you've embraced this, what is it that you embraced?

What is it, how would you describe it here six years ago? Yeah, so I definitely, you know, I wouldn't have had the two up down or the five points down, but what I understood at the time, and I think it's still the biggest part of it, is, and you mentioned, in my view, the biggest key of it, while I go when you called it big God theology, was that God was at the centerpiece of everything.

He is the centerpiece, he's not at the centerpiece, I misspoke, he is the centerpiece of everything, and that he is the focal point, and it's not that, it's not, I think there was, without knowing it, I think man-centered theology was my theology before that.

So God-centered theology, meaning that not only is he the focus and the point of salvation, but he's also the cause of salvation. So to understand God, you understand man, and to understand man is to understand that man is totally depraved, he is without hope, he is without, it can't be helped, he's not, as you mentioned in your sermons, and I know for a fact that man is not sitting in the water with his hands, you know, drowning with his hands flowing up and down, waiting for a life preserver, as was presented throughout history and throughout modern churches, but man is dead at the bottom of the ocean of sin, and he is there helpless without an act of God through the Holy Spirit to regenerate that person, and then they can come willingly to God in regards to that, but not until they're regenerated, not till God in his mercy can save that person, can give them a new heart and cause them to believe.

So I think that was, you know, what I understood at that time was that man was not the point of salvation, that God was the point of salvation, and not only was he the point of salvation, but he was also the cause of salvation.

So apart from God, men can do nothing to help themselves or to save themselves. Yeah, wow, amen. Yeah, so I got two questions. One, one would be kind of, well, let's start with this one. Did you ever enter into the so-called cage stage now?

The Cage Stage and Growing in Theological Maturity

Oh, man. Oh, man, yeah. How'd that go? You're trying to beat this, and hey, look what I found. Okay, so the way that went a lot, and I will say, even in this, even in what would be my cage stage, as you said, God was gracious to me, because like I said, I had respect, and even then I had, you know, a respect for not only the church, but also for my dad, because at this time, we're still in the church, and it's not a reformed church whatsoever.

And matter of fact, I think, again, everybody probably, to an extent, minus, I will say, there were actually Calvinists in the congregation, and, but I didn't know that then, to be honest with you, but the majority of the people would have said, again, what I said, what I affirmed about Calvinism up to that point was that there was, you know, that's bad stuff.

You don't go there. You know what I mean? But people may not even be Christians, you know, that kind of stuff. Well, the problem was is that at the time, and again, this was, there's a huge lack of wisdom on my part, too, but I was teaching the youth in the class, at the church on Wednesday nights, and also, we were in a young adult Sunday school class in the mornings, and the first thing that I did in the young adult Sunday school class was I encouraged us to get away from, like, Tony Evans and things like that, and get on to, like, you know, let's just go to a book of the Bible.

Well, unfortunately, what I did was, which, it's not unfortunate that we did it, but maybe my reasoning behind it is where we come back to the cage stage, but I pointed us to, I was like, hey, we should either do Romans or, like, you know, 1 Corinthians or something like that, but in that, it was a very, like, and I'm not speaking ill of the people who taught it or anything like that, but it was a very open-ended class, so there'd be, like, five or 10 minutes of, you know, reading the scripture, and then, I'm sure you're familiar, but, you know, a lot of times, it's like, what do you think that means, that kind of stuff, and so, like, I used my infinite pool of wisdom as a one-year-old in Christ, if you wanna call it like that, or less, to explain to everybody why they were wrong and why this is the right way, and this is a, and yeah, I mean, I didn't really go forth before, like, I forgot to mention, also, we did a, before Sunday school started, we'd sing a song, and we would do a devotional, and guess who was doing the devotionals at the time?

It was me, so I used that opportunity quite often. I didn't, I knew better than to just use the words that I know would stir people, but, you know, like, but you'd be surprised that once you just use the Bible and tell people, and, you know, the truth without putting the terminology on them, you get lots of amens, and oh, yeah, that's right, you know, that kind of stuff, but.

Yeah, but I definitely probably started and participated in a lot more arguments than I'd care to admit, and not for, not for the sake of God's glory, but for probably my own, a lot in that, so. In that, I mean, we've all been there, isn't that a sad thing that the evil one will use, you know, once you embrace the big God theology, well, then sometimes there's that temptation there for even our own flesh to just, you know, even though it's like, it's so funny, we're gonna use this theology that's all about God to make something all about us, you know.

Oh, man, yeah, absolutely. Not that there's not times, you know, we're not scared to defend the faith, we're not scared, but, you know, there's a lot of wisdom in that. So that was one question, the cage stage.

How Reformed Theology Reshaped Prayer, Devotion, and Evangelism

Here's another question. How has coming to these truths, how has this changed your life? Well, I wanna kind of say like your devotional life, you know, your time in prayer and in the Word and in family worship, even evangelism, has this brought any changes like that into your life?

Oh, man, that would be an understatement, probably, because I think that most of that stuff didn't exist in my life until, you know, Reformed theology entered in. And like I said, I look at it as biblical theology, you know, I know that's a, everybody says that, but I think it's true.

And obviously we believe it's true or else we wouldn't be affirming it as a church or as believers, you know. But especially like, man, impact on my, you said, you mentioned prayer and devotion. That's probably the biggest things personally, because, you know, when, again, I think once you understand that God is the centerpiece and His glory is the ultimate goal, it changes.

And you also realize that like, you know, there's no, you don't read the story of David and Goliath and picture yourself as David and Goliath as your struggles anymore. You know, like, hey, this is telling the story of Christ and redemption.

Or as you mentioned, you know, not too long ago, the three trees on Wednesday night. So, you know, there is an overarching theme through the scripture and it's not really me. You know, I'm not the purpose of this story.

And so I think that changes devotion for sure. And your prayer life, you know, I think about the Pharisee and the tax collector, the way that they prayed to God. You know, the Pharisee says, thank God I'm not like other man, like that tax collector.

And the tax collector says, God have mercy on me. I'm a sinner, you know? And I think that is probably the outlook on prayer. But also, you know, there's comfort in knowing that God is actually sovereign.

I think everybody says that and says that they affirm it. But I think knowing that God is sovereign changes how you pray because you can faithfully pray, God, please save my children. God, please save my brother.

God, please save my neighbor. God, please save. And obviously that doesn't excuse you from going out and sharing the gospel. You mentioned evangelism. I think if anything, it spurs you on to do that. You know, that God is wholly responsible for salvation and God saves those whom he chooses, but God uses means such as men preaching the gospel.

That is the primary means, you know, that is the way that he worked his word and the gospel. So it spurs you on to want to go share the gospel. And then you understand that like, look, not only is God in heaven real, but also hell is real.

And this is the reality that faces those who do not trust in Christ for their salvation. And, you know, I think the primary argument against it, at least what I heard early on was that, well, what's the point in evangelism?

What do you mean, what's the point in evangelism? It doesn't matter that God knows, you don't know who's gonna be saved. What you know is that people are dying and going to hell. Their people are perishing and apart from Christ, they will spend eternity in hell.

And I think that, again, I think that spurs on evangelism. I think it does change your devotion. It changes your prayer life for sure. And family worship, man, that didn't even, I never even know that that kind of thing existed until I started, you know, reading some of the Puritans and getting a little bit of a teaching from, at this point, a different church and, you know, really, really understanding what that primarily the means for obviously that there's the local church, but for my family, primarily the means for their spiritual discipleship and, you know, and evangelism are, you know, their parents, me as a spiritual leader of their household.

And so I am responsible for that. So yeah, it changed everything in my life, man, personally, everything. I've used this analogy before and I didn't come up with it, but reformed theology is like glasses and you can see without glasses and you can be a Christian without being reformed.

But when you have reformed theology, it's like, it's a whole new world and you see, and you see the depravity of man and you see the glory of God in Christ and you see the beauty of the church and you see this long legacy, you know, like you were talking about with reading the Puritans and yeah, and it's not a system so much as it is just the fruit of the doctrine of the scriptures.

Like this is the Bible. It's not taking a system and laying it over the Bible. It's saying, okay, if I'm really gonna read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and I'm really going to explain, this is what it teaches about God and man and salvation and Christ, then this is what you're gonna be.

And if you like the term or not, it doesn't matter. I, you know, I'd rather not, John Calvin's gonna slap us when we get to heaven. He's not gonna, you know, he's not gonna like that we use that term and that's okay.

Like I only try to use the term just to, you know, make, clarify some things, but it's not the term that's important, reformed or reformed Baptist or Calvinism. Man, we just wanna live and breathe and teach and glory in what the scriptures teach us.

Resources for Exploring Reformed Theology

And yeah, so, well, okay. So it's been pretty, pretty good episodes kind of flown by actually, but I just kind of wonder like, is there like a one kind of like sermon or podcast or book or something? Like, let's say somebody happens to be listening and they're like, hmm, I'd like to, I'd like to think about that more.

Is there something you'd point them to? Man, you mentioned several earlier, you know, as far as like, you know, that we can still wholeheartedly recommend. I think, you know, Ligonier is pretty good as far as that goes.

I think that I'll, as podcast, you know, the Royal Church podcast, that's the one I'd go for for sure. But also, you know, like the Sword in the Trowel from Founders, I think that's really good. Books, man, I could go, you know, if you're curious specifically about, you know, Reformed Baptist, I'd say like, what is a Reformed Baptist by Tom Hicks is a really good one.

But like, you know, what is, you know, and the one by Sproul, what is Reformed Theology isn't that what it's called? Yeah, that's the best one I read early on. It's really good. Of course, oh man, what is the, what's the one by Sproul that everybody reads?