Fear — Leonard Ravenhill

Fear as Public Enemy Number One

If somebody was to ask you a simple question, and ask, ask you to answer it in a simple way, either in a sentence or in a word, and this was the question, how would you answer it? What or who is public enemy number one?

And I'll give you the whole scope of history right back to the days of Adam to find an answer in it. I'm sure that some would come up with a single word and say sin, some might come along and say ignorance, some might even say poverty, and yet it's not one of those things.

This thing is invisible, so nobody's ever seen it, they couldn't photograph it, they couldn't paint it. It has no shape. It's a tyrant, it's a troublemaker, it strengthens the weak, it weakens the strong, it was known to the ancients and known to the moderns.

If I'd said tell me public enemy number one in the days of Israel, you'd say no doubt, well Pharaoh was their great enemy. If you wanted more recent history, you might say of course that Hitler was the great enemy of the whole world, he wanted to pull it down anyhow.

But again this monster, if I can use that word, this tremendous thing, was not originally in the Garden of Eden, though it did get in. It certainly wasn't in the Garden of Gethsemane, and it isn't in the Garden of Paradise of God.

But as I say again, it's known to the ancients, and it's known to the moderns, and we've done a thousand things about it, but we can't destroy it. I think of a ship that was riding on the bosom of the Atlantic in World War II.

It was guarded more closely than the crown jewels, and it was watched more intensely than a newborn prince. On board of that ship were some of the greatest men in the world of the day. Amongst them Winston Churchill, F .D. Roosevelt.

When they came off that ship, they had forged what became known, though we never mention it now, the Atlantic Treaty. And in the Atlantic Treaty, they guaranteed the rest of mankind four freedoms. We don't have one of them.

And one of them was the freedom from fear. And I believe that public enemy number one is fear. And in writing in his last epistle, and usually the last words of people are very sacred. The last words of Jesus get more profound.

Paul’s Charge to Timothy Against the Spirit of Fear

We listen more closely to people who are dying when they want to whisper secrets. The last epistle that Paul wrote was written to a young man by the name of Timothy. And in his second epistle and the first chapter, Paul says to this young man, For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but the spirit of love, and of power, and of a sound mind.

I think it was Winston Churchill, one of the wisest men that ever lived, being English, but I think it was Winston Churchill who said that there are just three kinds of people in the world. Those who are afraid, those who don't know enough to be afraid, and those who know their Bibles.

That's a tremendous classification, I think. Those who are afraid, those who don't know enough to be afraid, and those again who know the Word of God. Now there are many approaches to this subject of fear.

Fear Is Real, Not Merely Imaginary

One writer just says that fear is the product of a diseased imagination. Fear is imaginary, it's unreal. But I remember one night going into a hospital, I was called out about 11 o 'clock at night, and as I went to see a little fellow who had suffered injury, a little boy that came to a Sunday school where I was a pastor.

As I came out from the ward, I saw a woman crouched over a tiny cot. Well it was dark, I say it was nearly midnight, and there was just a little light shining onto that cot, and I went up very quietly, and the lady sensed I was there, and I said, Excuse me, I wonder if I could help you.

And her eyes were all red with weeping, and her face was swollen, and she said, No sir, you can't do anything for me. I said, Well is the little fellow badly injured? Yes, she said, It's very serious.

I said, Well is he the only child you have? Oh no, no, no, she said, I've got six more, but I can't spare one of them, she said. With the love of a mother. This one's injured, but I can't spare one of them.

And I'm afraid he's going to die. Do you think that woman's fear was the product of a diseased imagination? Fear is very real. I think fear is an inbuilt monitor, until we destroy it. Because there's many a man that does not commit sin, or many a person does not commit sin.

Not because they wouldn't like to, but because they're afraid of the consequences. Not only just because they might be caught. We've been teaching the children some of these wonderful Proverbs. I notice that wisdom is mentioned, I counted today about 54 times in the, in the Proverbs.

And you remember that one of the Proverbs is that, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I read again in Hebrews 11 about Noah. Noah mulled with fear, built an ark to the saving of his soul.

I read that when Abraham was going to bring his hand down, and destroy that precious boy that he had, that he was commanded that his hand should stay. And the word that came to him was this, I know that thou fearest God.

Godly Fear and Cowardly Fear

Now that's a fear of a different kind. You see that there's moral fear. There's a cowardly fear. In the 25th chapter of the wonderful Gospel of Matthew, it says there that some men had been given gifts or talents as they're called.

And one man thought because he'd only won there wasn't very much in it. The man went and traded with his five and he profited from it. Another man went and traded with ten. But this man only had one. And because he had won, he said I was afraid and I went and hid my talent.

He was afraid of what? Well he was afraid that he couldn't develop it I suppose. And yet that fear wasn't strong enough to be deterrent, to cause him not to waste that talent that he had. So there is a cowardly fear.

I have seen men, I used to go to an Air Force base in England in World War II, and talk to hundreds and hundreds of men. The condition was that I spoke to them for 40 minutes, and then they battered me for the next 40.

We had some very interesting duels I'll tell you that. And I remember one night particularly, when one man was pretty arrogant about his sin. Didn't want anything to do with the Bible and everything else.

I said wait a minute buddy, some of the men I talked to last week went over in formation over Germany, and they're scraps tonight. They're blasted to smithereens. They never came back. Oh the man says I have no fear.

There is a godly fear. But you see there are different kinds of fear. There is a godly fear. There is a fear that, there is a godly fear. There is a fear that caused Noah to go build an ark. There is a cowardly fear that makes a man high.

There is a fear that I'll fight you. And I said to some of those men listen, I've, and I said to some of those men listen, I've watched you in the sky. They used to come over England there, and they used to swirl around in the sky, in their, what were they, spitfires, fighting against the Messerschmitts, and the Heinkels and other things.

And you could see them in daytime having dogfights. They were very interesting. And I said to those men I'm amazed at your courage. You have no fear in that sense. But when it comes to temptation, when it comes to the fact that, well you should stand up some of you for Christ.

There's a fear that comes in and it destroys your courage. You see there's physical fear. There is a natural courage. There are some men who were born, they'd rush into anything. They don't care about consequences.

But when it comes to a moral issue, it's a very different thing. I remember one of those young fellows, he was ferrying planes from England over to North Africa. And when he got to the base, well there wasn't much room for seven or eight men that had come in this big bomber.

And he was separated from his other buddy, his Christian friend. And so he was put into a room, a bunks. And when they told him to go, you know, whatever the room was, A1, and find room 23 something, and number four dead, he went in and turned on the light.

There was nobody in, but the walls were covered with girly pictures that weren't very good. He thought, this is a fine kettle of fish. What will I do here? Shall I wait for these fellows to come in? And then he thought, no, I've flown a long way and I guess when they come in they'll do the usual thing, salute the girls or kiss the pictures or do some other things.

I guess I'll be asleep when they come in. And in his wallet he had a picture of Christ. And so he moved some of the pictures over and he stuck the picture of Jesus right in the middle and he took a catnap and these men came in the early hours and when they came in they began to get ready for bed and one of them said, well, let me kiss my sweet.

Well, what's that picture doing there? Who put that there? Must be this guy down here. Listen, wait a minute, one of the men said, wait a minute, what's wrong with it? Well, there's nothing wrong with a picture of Christ but he doesn't fit in with a bunch of nude girls around him anyhow.

So the fellow said, take your choice. Either pull his pictures down or pull their pictures down. And the fellow said, I wouldn't take the picture of Christ down. After all, my mother is a good Christian at home and I didn't usually go to Sunday school so hey, come on boys.

The RAF fellow was turning over his bed giggling and smiling to himself and when he got up in the morning every picture of God. Now that man had courage. They could have beaten him up, they could have retaliated in some cruel way but you see he dared to do what we sing about so often, dared to be a Daniel and dared to stand alone and dared to have a purpose firm and dared to make it known.

Paul’s Final Letter and Timothy’s Spiritual Gift

Now again I remind you here that Paul is writing to this young man and no mother ever loved a child like the Apostle Paul loved Timothy. And again I remind you that this second epistle is the last thing that Paul ever wrote.

Wrote it from prison. Wrote it with strong desire to see this young man not fail in the race. He has to run a long journey yet. He has to fight a big fight. And again I'm impressed and I'm very thrilled that that in this last thing that Paul ever wrote and he wrote 14 epistles if you include Hebrews.

After all he doesn't say, Timothy look I want to tell you something. I want to be fair with you because you know what I would do if I were your age. I mean you're a young man, you're full of life. You have a godly background.

Your mother and your grandmother were spiritual and you have a marvelous inheritance and you have a great future and you have a lot of abilities. So listen, don't run as fast as I've run. Don't fight as I've fought.

Don't suffer all I've suffered. I mean think it over. There's an easier way to live the Christian life. I've got a lot of regrets. I rather wish I'd preserved my life a little bit more. I really wish I hadn't as many prison sentences as I have instead of that.

Here is a man who's gone through a thousand tribulations. He's been whipped, he's been starved, he's been in the Mediterranean for 36 hours on a piece of wood. A night and a day I was in the deep. And yet he says to this young man, listen Timothy, I want to tell you something.

I've a great desire to see you. And he said, I'm mindful of your tears. I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. Oh, oh, oh. Would you like the Apostle Paul to have put his hands on you?

Rather I give my shoes off my feet. You, I got one candidate. There's two of us then Herb. The others aren't too interested maybe right now. But I'd love that man to have put his hands on me. What an excitement if Jesus put his hands on anybody.

Stirring Up the Gift of God

He touched them and life came. He touched their ears and the plugs came out. He could touch water and turn it into wine. And Paul says, listen you remember, I communicated the very life of God that's in me.

You see there is a place, I've not done this more than three or four times in my life. But I've done it sometimes, where I felt compelled to go lay my hands on somebody. A man wrote to me this week, he's a very well-known man in the business world, in the world of intellectuals.

And he said, I'm longing to come and I want you to lay hands on me. Well I've really no desire to do that. If he wants it I'll do it. But I wouldn't push anything like that on a person. But Paul says, listen I want to tell you.

Look at your inheritance, your mother, your grandmother, extremely spiritual people. And then on top of that I laid my hands upon you. That he says, you've got to stir up the gift of God which is in you.

You see if I lit a number of fires outside, say we were camping, I might light a dozen fires. But all those fires wouldn't maintain their glow, and wouldn't maintain their fire, unless they were constantly replenished.

Now the Apostle Paul says, you've got to stir up the gift of God that's in you. God doesn't stir it up. For some reason I thought today of my sister when she was, well I don't think she was even courting at the time.

But she's a very fine needle woman. She liked to make these lovely cloths, and put lovely designs. And she'd stitch for hours and hours and hours and hours, there in a corner and make beautiful beautiful embroidery.

And then when she'd finish it, she'd lay it on one side, and she put it there in a chest, where she kept all these things for the great day, when she was going to be married. And you know unconsciously we're doing the same thing.

You see Paul is very severe to this young man. He doesn't say that bodily exercise is no good, but he says watch it. Because a man likes to develop his body and show off. Show his physical strength. And he doesn't say bodily exercise is no good, but he says you exercise yourself to godliness.

Don't just want to flex your muscles, but see what burdens you can carry for him. And don't get enchanted with the world outside. Oh brother does he come down the line. Do you know what he says? This is, this is, you know you don't look at your new automobile when you read this.

He says having food and clothing, having food and raiment, let us be content. Hey we must be off base a lot of us. Come on now don't be hiding your head and pretending to read your Bible. Look at me right now.

Even if you do blush. How far have we got from that? Having food and clothing. Do you know I'm so old, I can remember when people wore clothes just to keep warm, not to show off. I can remember when if a man had two shirts, he was considered wealthy.

I live through a depression period. You know now luxuries have become necessities to us. Do you know God may have to strangle the economy of America to bring the church to its senses. Never mind unsaved millions of people.

Perilous Times and the Decline of the Church

Paul is writing to a young man. He says listen I want to tell you something. In these last days perilous times shall come. Oh I've read this, let me read it to you. In his first letter and chapter 3, reading it from Phillips, in which he says, you must realize in the last days that the times will be full of danger.

Listen, men will become utterly self-centered, greedy for money, full of big words. They'll be proud and contemptuous without any regard for what their parents taught them. They will be utterly lacking in gratitude and purity and normal human affections.

They will be men of unscrupulous speech and have no control over themselves. They will be passionate and unprincipled, treacherous, self-willed and conceited. Loving all the time what gives them pleasure instead of loving God.

They will maintain a facade of religion but their conduct will deny its validity. You must keep clear of people like this. That sounds like today's newspaper doesn't it? And then he says a little later on in the same chapter, persecution is inevitable for those who are determined to live the Christian life.

It's the other side of the coin. There is no, there's no escaping from it. Let me read to you a beautiful, delicious chapter that isn't quite as severe maybe. I won't even tell you where it is so then you'll have to listen more and find it when you go home.

Judgment for Rejecting the Knowledge of God

Listen. Hear the word of the Lord, ye children of Israel or children of God. For the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land because there is no truth, no mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

Now by swearing and lying and killing and stealing and committing adultery they break out and blood toucheth blood. If that isn't where we live now then where in God's name are we living? I'll read again.

By swearing and lying and killing and stealing and committing adultery they break out and blood toucheth blood. Therefore shall the land mourn and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven and the fishes of the sea.

These shall be taken away. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge because thou hast rejected knowledge I will also reject thee that thou shalt be no priest to me seeing that thou hast forgotten the law of thy God.

I will also forget thy children. I say that's severe. This is why poor Paul remember he's writing to a young man and Paul himself he's heading for the chopping block and he hasn't a single ounce he hasn't a tear for himself he hasn't a heartbeat of sorrow.

He's heading for one of the devil's strongest children that ever lived a king by the name of Nero with neither conscience nor any other compunction he destroyed everybody he wanted to destroy and Paul is heading straight for the chopping block and he has no word of sympathy.

He doesn't even ask for prayer. He does say to him. I say it would be nice if you called round to see me. You know I'm an old man. I'd like to hear how you young men are getting on. I was quite thrilled tonight when these boys asked for the hymns they asked for and obviously they didn't even ask for the butterfly song but don't mention it to anybody.

They asked for some good substantial hymns. Maybe they're the young Timothys of the next generation of Jesus Tarrys. And Paul is writing to this young man and he says listen perilous times are coming.

And therefore he says to him in verse 20 of the previous chapter that's the last chapter of the first epistle. O Timothy keep that which is committed to thy trust. He says in verse 22 of the fifth chapter in the first epistle lay hands suddenly on.

No man neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself pure. So here he is admonishing him keep thyself pure. Verse 20 of the last chapter. Keep that which is committed to thy trust. Verse 14 of this first chapter in the second epistle.

That good thing which is committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. Now again I remind you that this man this young man he's going to head up into trouble. And the apostle Paul knows it.

And therefore he says. Listen. God hath not given us the spirit of fear but the spirit of love the spirit of power and of a sound mind. The spirit of power. Well wasn't that the promise that that God gave to that Jesus gave in Acts 1a.

Ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you. Where do we see the power anymore. The church languishes. Well all you're asked to do anyhow is come to church about once on the Lord's day and give a dollar to keep the kingdom of God going.

And you're through live for the world. After that promote your own interests. Get as much of the visible as you can stuff. You can stick your names on the great day when we stand before God. I think we're all going to be embarrassed that professing to have eternal life.

Laying Hold of Eternal Life

You see he says over and over to this. This young man lay hold of eternal life. You say that eternal life laid hold of me. No he says you lay hold of eternal life. And he says it more than once. How do you lay hold of eternal life.

Well as soon as we become spiritual every antagonizing force is going to try to deteriorate my spiritual life. And if you don't believe it how much time have you spent in prayer today. Oh you've talked for hours.

Well we had friends visiting us. I've had long conversations. All right all right. Tell it to the Lord not me. You don't owe me anything. You just justify your actions before God. That's all you have to do to be happy trust and obey.

There's no other way. But how often do I shortchange God. Timothy he says lay hold of eternal life because Satan is going to try and make that spiritual life deteriorate. You know as I've told you so often we do not all live on the same level.

Jesus had 12 disciples. But they did not all go into the garden of Gethsemane. They did not all go on to the Mount of Transfiguration. All have available to us the same resources. After all nobody has more hours in the day than you have.

Or I have. Some of us don't have to punch into a clock. We are not on the same demand as others. That's true enough. But the thing is you see you can always do what you want to do. If this had been a real red hot blistering day you know what some of us would have been at the swimming hole today.

Wouldn't we honest to goodness. Wouldn't we. Wouldn't we have made it there. Hmm. Or if there'd been a bargain down the road wouldn't we have put something on one side and gone to the place so we could get it.

In other words you see unless we're careful the subtleties of this life it's not the evil things. We do not do the evil things. It's the good things that are the enemy of the best. Now the Apostle Paul is concerned that this young man he says listen you're heading for trouble.

And I want you to know that there is one thing that will keep you on centre. There are three things he mentions here. God has not given us the spirit of fear. I remind you again there are three classes of people in the world tonight those who are afraid.

And if you're intelligent you're afraid. If a man says I'm not afraid in this hour well I think he's neither brains nor conscience. And you may disagree and if you do you're wrong. But anyhow if you're not afraid of the hour in which you'll live your eyes are not open to the power satanic powers in the world.

Did you hear the news tonight. Did you hear that they exploded an atom bomb or a hydrogen bomb in China a few days ago and the fallout came to Pennsylvania. But it's not too serious. But we can't do anything about it because we have no treaty with them all.

Right. Tell me this. What if they intensify the fallout. What do we do. Did you hear where one of the men in Russia a letter came out saying that Brezhnev or whatever his name is has a state in Russia which is far more cruel than any period that the Tsars had.

And that Russia is armed to the teeth because America is armed. And China says before long America and Russia are going to clash in another war. Oh yes. The news was very very very heavy tonight. And there is an instinctive and natural fear.

It isn't a moral cowardly fear. It doesn't lack spirituality. But you see that we're living in a world where men are not truly intelligent and they're not certainly not spiritual. We're heading for trouble.

Power for Spiritual Warfare and Endurance

Paul says Timothy I want to tell you that monster there Nero he won't pull any punches. It's going to cost you something if you're going to endure to the end that you might be saved. But he says I'll tell you what we'll do what God will do.

He'll give you the spirit of power. Who was it promised to. It was the promise to men that ran away one when a girl put a finger up and said hey you belong that man. He said no I don't. You do. You do.

I don't. I know you belong to that man and Peter of all men cursed. You know where it all happened. In the garden of Gethsemane. Because he'd sworn allegiance to Jesus. And you know what happened in the most critical hour in the life of Jesus.

I think the most precious thing that was ever ever offered to men was the chance that Peter James and John had to pray with Jesus in the garden and they fell asleep and Jesus went back again and they'd fallen asleep.

And Jesus went back again and they were asleep. They'd sleep on. Forget it. You've had your chance. You remember the man that said the farmer said you see I put the very best seed in that field. And now I noticed that the weeds are strong.

And boy I got the best crop of corn. But I happened to have the best crop of weeds as well. How did it happen. Did you mix the seed. No sir. No sir. I was coming home late one night and I saw a man jump over the fence there and he was scattering seed for all he was worth.

And I didn't tell you because I thought you might ask me why I was out so late. So what did he say. He said while men slept. You think the church is doing exactly that like that in this crisis hour not.

What is it going to take to stir the world. What in God's name. Is it going to take to disturb the church. He should receive power. They needed physical power because their bodies were going to suffer.

They needed moral power. They were going to stand up against governments. They needed spiritual power. They were going to wrestle with principalities and powers. They needed power to live with each other under the conditions they were going to live with.

And the apostle says we need exactly the same power. We're heading for trouble. No doubt. But God hath not given us the spirit of fear. We don't bow down like that. We're realists. There's only one alternative if we don't take Christ we take Antichrist.

We're living in an Antichrist system. I don't know why everybody suddenly got upset that Mr. Sun Moon has started. What has he bought? Two hotels on 8th Avenue. And he's getting our children. Well why in the world have we been troubled about Jehovah's Witnesses.

They've been there for years. Damning people. What about the Mormons. What about the others. Sun Moon only has a third of a million followers. They've got multiplied millions. These whining, screaming, begging broadcasting preachers send us some money.

We need more help. And I noticed the Mormon president interviewed on TV the other day when they said well you're a big church aren't you. Yes yes. Affluent. Well yes affluent. We handle three million dollars a day.

The interviewer said a day? Three million dollars a day. Thousand million dollars a year. A billion dollars a year. So next time you're traveling be sure to stay at the Marriott Hotel and give them a bit more money.

Because they own that chain and I don't know how many other things they don't own. You know we may as well try and swim up Niagara Falls the way the church is right now. We've no more chance of winning than we have of flying the Atlantic without a plane.

Perfect Love Casts Out Fear

This same spirit that came upon the early church and came upon this man must come upon us the spirit of love. What are we talking about. He says God hath not given us the spirit of fear. Do you remember what it says in 1 John 4 18.

Is it God. No there is no fear in love. Perfect love casteth out fear. You know in England when folk get married if you can't get there the least thing you do is send a telegram. I was told about this couple who were married and somebody came in as they turned from the altar were going down the aisle.

And somebody said a telegram. Oh let's open it. No. Wait wait wait. No. She said I want to read. I think I know where it's from. And she slid it open and it said there you know some nice greetings. And then it said underneath 1 John.

No it said John 4 18. And she grabbed the Bible quickly and opened it to John 4 18. Thou hast had 5 husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband. That's no joke. Is it. You wait you wait you wait till the wedding breakfast so that I'll phone.

And they discovered a very little thing had happened at the post office. They just left the 1 off the front. She put on the telegram 1 John 4 18. Folk at the post office didn't think the 1 meant anything so they dropped it off.

But the difference between thou hast had 5 husbands and 1 John 4 18 when it says there is no fear in love perfect love cast without fear. Or as that lovely hymn says hidden in the hollow of his blessed hand.

The Majesty of God in Isaiah 40–41

Do you know what I want you to do. Do it tonight. Do it tomorrow. Will you go home and read slowly through Isaiah chapter 40. Will you get a new concept of the majesty of the God that you and I serve that you can measure the sea in the hollow of his hand.

Don't read it now. Read it when you go home. If you read it I'll be after you soon. I don't usually mention names but anyhow read it when you go home. That 40th chapter is just just magnificent with the majesty of God.

And sometimes I feel when I read a thing like that I'm like a little worm in a corner. I'm scared to death to go and face a rotten vile vicious world like this that militates against God in every sense of the word.

No no no no. He said that he's he's put his arms round about us that those who put their trust in him shall never be confounded. And when you've read the 40th read into the 41st. I will not forsake thee.

It's full of I wills. I will strengthen thee. I will help thee. I will uphold thee. You see immediately we come into the family of God. There's nobody else. Let me put it. How can I put it. We're all equal in shareholding it.

Isn't that this man has $50 ,000 worth of shares and you only have $5. Immediately you come in the family you get all the fullness of God if you want it. You get all the riches that there are. You have as the apostle says that God hath with him freely given us all things.

No God hasn't given us the spirit of fear. I don't care how you measure the length and the breadth and the depth and the height of all the devilry ahead of us. I've repeated this before and I'll say it again that the most severe days are still ahead of us.

And yet the only people that will hold together are those who have a complete trust in the Lord Jesus Christ those who have just handed over not only their sins but themselves and their wills and their desires toward him.

Transformation Through the Renewing of the Mind

God hath not given us the spirit of fear but he has given us the spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind. And Paul says I want you to remember this. Keep it before you all the time you see a man is sensible if he knows there's danger there.

If he knows there's a high voltage. It's not clever to go and fool around with it again. There is a natural fear. One of the problems of the day in which we live is as the scripture says there is no fear of God before men and women.

No fear of God. They salute him. They go to church they do the respectable thing. But as for fearing him fearing him with godly fear fearing to grieve him. Well if you love people you don't hurt them.

If you love people you want to do the very best you can for them. If you love people you'll obey them as implicitly as it's possible. And the apostle says in writing there in the fifth chapter of Romans that if we're really born of God the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

It has not given us a spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind. You know there's a lovely phrase there in Romans 12 1 and 2 where it says I beseech you therefore brethren by the mercies of God that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice and be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.

I remember a very famous personality in America came to see us when we were at Teen Challenge and David Wilkerson called me in his office and he said hey I've got so and so coming. Would you come in. And I went in and listened to these men discuss for a while.