July 30, 2019 Show with Kurt M. Smith on “Piety, Passion, & Paradox: The Life & Legacy of Basil Manly, Sr.”

The Program Opens and Introduces Basil Manly’s Biography

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30 30th day of July 2019.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a person who I love to interview a fascinating person who is not only rich in his knowledge of theology and doctrine and biblical wisdom. But he is also very knowledgeable in church history.

And that is another one of the reasons we have him on today. Specifically we are discussing his new book on a great historical figure especially beloved by those in Calvinistic Baptist circles and that is a basil manly senior.

His book is piety passion paradox the life and legacy of Basil manly senior and it's on my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Kurt M Smith. You Chris. It is great to be back on. I didn't even realize it was that long. Wow.

And I know that your pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama. Why don't you tell our listeners something more about that church?

Hmm. Yeah. Proverbs 4 Methodist Church three years.

So you mean it has nothing to do with your Christmas cantata or your praise your praise band? Or your youth programs.

I Know exactly. I mean, listen, not even the fog machine work. It wasn't even that I Mean, you know, you know, what is. Well, if anybody wants more information about Providence Reformed Baptist Church.

Which as I said before is located in Pine Mountain, Alabama. Their website is PR BC one six eight nine dot org. PR BC one six eight nine dot org even though this is not the Theme of our show today since you bothered to put it in your website.

One six eight nine. Why don't you why don't you educate our listeners who may be totally unfamiliar with? The 1689 London Baptist Confession also known as the Second London Baptist Confession. There are those Especially perhaps our non confessional fundamentalist friends who on occasion Slander us By saying that we don't think that the Bible is sufficient.

So we have these man-written confessions and Ironically the confession itself and all of the historic Reformed confessions. Say in the confessions themselves that they're not on the same par as the scripture not near it but if you could let us let us Let our listeners know who are unfamiliar with that confession and perhaps even confessionalism.

Itself a little know about the 1689.

Well the 1689. Yes, and I know that Charles hadn't Spurgeon actually had.

The 1689 confession and Benjamin Keach's catechism.

Encased in the cornerstone of the Metropolitan Tarbonneau. Yes, he did great.

Well, let me give our listeners our email address right now in case they want to ask you a question. Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com C H R I s a r n z e n gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your City and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter. Well. You know, you normally on iron sharpens iron radio as you may remember when we have a first-time guest. We have them give a summary of their own salvation testimony of the Religious atmosphere they were raised in if any and what providential Circumstances were raised up in that person's life that drew him to God and saved him.

Well since you've already done that for yourself Basil or basil manly senior is a new Introduction to our listeners even though there are some probably a great minority Who have heard about him before who know him and those would?

Likely be largely confined to Calvinistic Baptist listeners and perhaps even pastors or Voracious readers, so if you could tell our listeners about the The religious atmosphere of the home of basil manly senior when he was.

Being raised up as a child and how he came to know Christ, but at home and what more manly name can you have? That is a remarkable story.

Basil Manly’s Conversion, Piety, and the Role of a Slave’s Prayer

Yeah, I don't know if I have ever heard a Story of God using a slave to bring someone in his master's family to salvation. That's really incredible.

Yeah, it really is. And of course, you know the biting irony of and.

The more remarkable part. Even if basil manly had remained a reprobate and remained a lost sinner. The the heartache and the passioned plea the impassioned plea that that slave had in his prayer for the salvation of Who would be? basil manly senior that in and of itself even if God did not answer the prayer the way the slave intended the fact that the slave was praying that way is I think Even the most remarkable part of the whole story.

I.

Mean, I mean God. The most glorious aspect is the salvation of basil manly senior. But the most remarkable part of the story I think is that the slave was praying for and that that way. Oh, yeah.

Yes, yeah, that's really what made you come to the point of all the historical figures you can.

Think of to write a book about. Especially since there are quite a number of Calvinistic Baptists of history who still have not had a published biography written about them. What was the the key thing or things that said.

I got to write a book. A biography about basil manly senior.

Brandon Smith. No, I was in Birmingham for my very first time ever.

Just a few weeks ago. I Was on my way to Franklin, Tennessee to a Bible conference out there and I spent two days. I've spent I'm sorry one night one day and night in your beautiful city or the beautiful city I should say of Birmingham, Alabama and this area.

Birmingham was just filled me with Envy because it was a very wealthy area and I've rarely seen a more gorgeous place in my life. But I was. I had lunch with a local reformed Anglican pastor Roger Salter and his wife Maureen and I know that they share a building with a Reform Baptist Church.

Who is the pastor that you're referring to? Oh.

He.

Just like the subject of my favorite biography a pastor in New York the life and time of Spencer Cohn by John Thornberry. He was a particular. Oh, yes a particular Baptist in Manhattan, and I have never met anybody who Has not read the read the book by Thornberry who knew who he was when I mentioned it and it's tragedy.

Why Recovering Baptist Biographies Matters

Yeah, I have that going to our first station break right now and.

If anybody wants to join us on the air or the question of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least. Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the new of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with more of Kurt M Smith and The life and legacy of Basil Manley senior.

I'm dr.

Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram Who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church Go to Hope Reform Li .net That's Hope Reformed Li .net or call 631 696 5711 that's 631 696 5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and my friend Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme That is vitally important to all of us worship matters.

I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beakey, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson Tom Askew, Votie Balcombe and the world-renowned preacher teacher and author John MacArthur. A Fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher Benny Hinn.

Kosti has repented of the word-faith heresies of his youth and is now a reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California. Come join me and Chris Arnzen at G3 2020 January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at G3conference .com.

That's G3conference .com. See you there.

My name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRVS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry?

20 years ago the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in reformed Baptist churches.

It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses Leading to the Master of Divinity degree. This is IRVS Theological Seminary.

We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God. That Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection.

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune God in all things. IRVS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRVS Theological Seminary? You'll find more information at IRVS seminary .org. That's IRVS seminary .org two S's in the middle.

I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you.

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Basil Manly, Hyper-Calvinism, and Confessional Baptist Distinctions

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Kurt M Smith author and pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

We are discussing his book piety passion and paradox the life and legacy of Basil Manley jr. And if you have a question, send it in to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Pastor Kurt before I continue pronouncing his name two ways.

Is it Basil or basil? Basil okay. I hope I remember that for the rest of the show. Well, you call the book piety passion and paradox. Why do you start with the term piety in relationship to the life of Basil Manley jr?

Senior? Did I say jr before? Boy.

I've heard him quoted more often or heard about him more often. Yes, you have. Because original Seminary faculty of the so tell us about the connection of piety to Basil Manley seniors life. I use that now, how did he get the reputation about?

I'm assuming when you say a strict Calvinist you're saying he got a reputation for being a hyper Calvinist. Is that was that the way I should assess? Oh, no. No, no. No, no.

No, he never he never had the reputation of being a hyper Calvinist.

Because even even the way that he was eulogized almost sounded like he was slandered for being that.

Well, the slander was so. You're saying those outside of Calvinism would have had that understand, correct?

In that day would have been the most numerous proponents of hyper Calvinism and For those of our listeners who don't even know the distinction there are obviously today, especially Many non-reformed non-Calvinist Christians.

Who call any Calvinist a hyper Calvinist? They will call and slander those who believe in the five points of Calvinism. They will slander them and us I should say as being hyper Calvinist just because we believe in those five points.

Because especially we believe in limited atonement and Those kinds of things. Were were these strict Baptists among those? Most prominent teaching a hyper Calvinism. And then there is actually still to this day especially in the UK even though there are a tiny denomination now, but there were and Are the strict Baptist denomination that are known for hyper Calvinism?

They were in conflict with Charles Haddon Spurgeon in England in her. But who would be the most prominent? Proclaimers of what would be genuinely labeled hyper Calvinism.

Well in basil manly's is that he could find. Yes for those of our listeners who are very unfamiliar with primitive Baptist because they.

Predominantly exist even though they are small. To begin with they predominantly exist in the South Midrash. There are there are places even in New Jersey and other places that they do. Have churches, but they are not only hyper Calvinists.

I have to be careful here because there are biblically Orthodox primitive Baptist today who perhaps inherited churches from years ago and maintain the name but have a identical faith with 1689 London Baptist Confession adherence, but Primitive Baptists are not only hyper Calvinist in their majority.

They're also simultaneous in the majority hypo Calvinists in some areas they do not believe for instance or should I say many do not believe that God is that God decreed all events that ever occur like horrible acts like your child getting run over by a car or Things like that that they do not believe The smoker who dies of cancer that God had anything to do with the the decree of that man's death.

So then that way they would be hypo Calvinist. They would be not right Calvinist at all. But they would be hyper Calvinist that they do not believe. The spreading of the gospel evangelism is actually used by God to bring about the miracle of regeneration.

It only Comforts the sheep or comforts the elect to understand why they are going to heaven, but it is not a necessary thing. For somebody to go to heaven people in their minds can go to heaven without ever knowing who Christ was.

Yes, yes, even even our mutual friend. Dr. James R. White preached in a primitive Baptist Church that.

Denied or rejected the the hyper Calvinistic elements of primitive Baptist and I think they might have even been confessional.

With the 1689. Yes. Yeah. Well the the primitive Baptist that I've known. Who have rejected who actually hit?

Interesting and it's interesting also that it shows you that hyper Calvinism comes in different flavors because The Netherlands Reformed Church is notorious for hyper Calvinism. That's the denomination that Joel Beakey left.

Largely largely because of hyper Calvinism, but they had an entirely different way of viewing things in regard to the breadth and the width of the spectrum of those who would be in heaven whereas the primitive Baptists since they remove man's responsibility and the preaching of the gospel From the equation of salvation and they really equate election with salvation as identical things.

That's right. The the Netherlands Reformed have a have the same heresy of removing man's responsibility. But they have a an opposite reaction to it. They will say that doesn't matter if you Come with a faith To God even if it appears to be genuine.

You know, there is only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny minority of people who are actually of the elect and they will have churches with 2 ,000 people in them. We're only a handful of people receive the Lord's Supper because they are the only ones that believe they are of the elect.

And they have they also it but for a denomination that is opposed to the charismatic movement as they are. They have a strange thing that I've never been able to comprehend About how God convicts them.

They are of the elect. It has something to do with an extra biblical supernatural experience. Very very strange and hard to grasp. Perhaps a former Netherlands or foreign person perhaps. Dr. Beeky can better explain that to us one day, but.

Passion, Preaching, and the Power of Unction

But we have to get our midway break right now. This is our longer than normal break because it's the break that grace life radio uses grace life lady radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Uses this break to air their own public server service announcements and commercials.

Since they air this program twice a day in a pre-recorded format. They have to localize on a trip and Zion radio to Lake City, Florida. And they use the midway break to do that while we air our globally heard commercials they air their local Lake City, Florida public service announcements and commercials, so Please use this time wisely write down your questions for Kurt and Smith about basil manly senior and Anything else in regard to Calvinism the Calvinistic Baptists?

Etc and send them to Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com and as always, please give us your first name your city and state of residence your country of residence if you live outside the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

Don't go away. God willing. We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Kurt Smith and our discussion on basil manly senior when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

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James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues Some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church.

Now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions. Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught Discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church.

Go to Hope Reformed Li .net that's Hope Reformed li .net or call six three one six nine six five seven one one. That's six three one six nine six five seven one one. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on iron sharpens iron radio.

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I'm dr. Gary Kimbrough pastor Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit the fatherless and widows and their affliction and the providence of God.

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What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children said heavily upon me as I was praying concerning this need it came to me I trust from the Lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing food education and some medical services is $73 per month per child. If just 50 of us would give $35 a month we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there.

So if you give a dollar a dollar will get to the orphans and this season of hope and giving will you consider giving? Hope to 24 orphans, please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website BBC laurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or BBC laurel .com. Thank you.

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Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRVs Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry?

20 years ago the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades these institutions work together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses Leading to the Master of Divinity degree. This is IRVs Theological Seminary.

We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God. That Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection.

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune God in all things. IRVs Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRVs Theological Seminary? You'll find more information at IRVs seminary org. That's IRVs seminary org two s's in the middle.

I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the two hours with a little less than an hour. To go is Kurt M. Smith. We are discussing his new book piety passion paradox and this is the life and legacy of Basil Manley senior and If you would like to join us on the air.

Send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you have a theological Difference with your own pastor your own congregation.

Your own denomination perhaps you're a pastor who has a difference of opinion on theological matters. With your with with your with your denomination your fellowship your congregation. I understand if you don't want to remain if you wish to remain anonymous during circumstances like that.

But other than that, please remain. Or please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence. Before I return to my discussion. With my guest we have a couple of announcements a few announcements to make in regard to upcoming special events.

That our sponsors are conducting that. I hope that you will try to attend if at all possible. We have coming up August 1st through the 3rd right around the corner. And in fact that starts tomorrow August 1st through the 3rd, that's I'm sorry not tomorrow.

It starts this Thursday through Saturday. The Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. That's Thursday through Saturday August 1st through the 3rd and My friend Mac Tomlinson is the one who spearheads this.

This conference every year. It is a Calvinistic conference. Featuring men this coming Fellowship Conference New England features men all of whom I have interviewed already on the show. And I'm looking forward to having many more interviews with them.

They're truly fascinating and gifted brethren. The first is pastor Anthony Mathenia. He is the pastor of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia and He is also the pastor of Paul Washer. He's going to be speaking the aforementioned pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Lee Dodd who is also a pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. And he's my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor Nate Pickowitz. Who is an author and a pastor of the Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

You can't wait to have him back on the show. He is also at this conference if you would like to register for this conference. Once again, it is Thursday August 1st through Saturday August 3rd at the Deering Center Christian the Deering Center Community Church in Portland Maine.

Go to fellowship conference New England comm. Fellowship conference New England comm and you can register there then coming up actually Coinciding with this conference. But on a different side of the United States an opposite end of the United States.

We have the event that my friend. Dr. Tony Costa is participating in. That is a conference at the church at friendship that is in Hockley, Texas and That is being hosted by the Providence Theological Institute and Dr. Costa will be speaking there the 2nd through the 4th.

So some of those days out overlap, but they're on opposite ends of the country so if you live closer to Hockley, Texas and You'd rather go to this conference. I hope that you make sure you attend and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The church at friendship Is hosting this as I said in Hockley, Texas and the speaking engagements Are going to be on such themes as the meaninglessly the meaninglessness of life without God the authority and inerrancy of Scripture the promised land and the New Covenant and The glorious New Covenant and more so if you want to attend this conference go to fellowship.

I'm sorry go to church at fellowship. I'm I'm really screwing up today go to church at friendship org. Church at friendship org is the website for that conference August 2nd through the 4th. That's this Friday through Sunday in Hockley, Texas and then my friend pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church Is going to be debating a Roman Catholic apologist named Matthew Luke Broderick on.

The theme is the office of Pope Biblical. This is a Catholic versus Protestant debate on Saturday, September 7th at 630 p .m. At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. If you want more details call six three one area code eight.

Oh six zero six fourteen six three one eight zero six zero six fourteen. Or go to the Word of Truth Church website, which is WOT church calm. WOT which stands for word of truth church calm WOT church calm then coming up in December I'm gonna be packing up my bags.

Heading back to my old stomping grounds in Manhattan. I'm going to the foundations conference. God willing hosted by sermon audio calm. That's Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City.

And what better time of year to go to Manhattan than Christmas season? And of course that Time of year would include December 19th and 20th Thursday and Friday. I hope to see you there. I am looking forward with bated breath to be there again.

I love this conference and the speakers include. Dr Stephen Jay Lawson one of the most gifted and powerful preachers we have on the planet Earth today and Another person in that category is Paul Washer and another person in that category is Jeff Thomas and Another person in that category is the Reverend Armin Tomassian who many of you may not have heard of before but he is a young man with extraordinary gifts preaching and teaching gifts far beyond his youth and He is a young pastor, but I think that within the next decade He's gonna be a household name amongst Reformed Christians because he is that powerful and that gifted a preacher.

Richard Caldwell jr. And Andrew Quigley are two men that I have not yet heard preach, but I'm sure of sermon audio calm selected them. They must be magnificent. So if you want to join me Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City at the foundations conference.

Go to the foundations conference calm the foundations conference calm. This conference is only open to men in ministry leadership. Then I am going to be packing up my bags again and this time heading down south.

Once again to the g3 conference. I love this conference so much. G3 stands for gospel grace and glory. It's being held at the Georgia International Convention Center Which is in College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta right near the airport.

Very convenient for people flying in from different parts of the world and many do in fact. They typically have over 5 ,000 people there every year. I am looking forward to also manning my exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio there again and The theme is going to be worship matters and the speakers include Kosti Hinn who is the nephew of renowned heretic or should I say notorious heretic and false teacher Benny Hinn and Kosti would not be upset by hearing me say that because he spends a great deal of his ministry outside of his own pulpit traveling and warning people about the deceptive Dangerous deadly and damning doctrines of the word-of-faith movement and that includes his own uncle.

He had repented of the word-of-faith heresy. He was raised in and he is now a reformed Baptist and cessationist pastor in, California. Gotta really travel to wherever you hear. Kosti is preaching if you can all make it and he will be on the roster here at the g3 conference along with Darrell Bernard Harrison a new addition to John MacArthur's team at grace to you Dave milk.

David Miller a really phenomenal old-school preacher. I just love hearing him preach. Derek Thomas a man who is definitely very familiar to most reformed Christians because of his writing preaching and teaching a mutual friend of my guest and mine.

James are white. Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be there. I've known James since 1995 and and I have been calling him a dear friend for many years. I just look forward to always seeing and hearing him speak.

Dr. Joel Beeky who we mentioned before he is the president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan once again. We have Stephen Jay Lawson and Paul Washer on the roster together at this conference in addition to the one that we mentioned before Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you the ministry of John MacArthur.