REFORMCON2016 | Apologia Radio Live!

All right, guys, if you would, come on back in and take your seats.

Afternoon.

How's everybody doing?

Hey, man, I am so psyched to be here.

My name's JB, and Lagos asked me to come in from Illinois.

Central Illinois is where my family live.

Anybody from Illinois?

All right, good, or as we like to call it, the People's Republic of Chicago.

But anyway, man, I got to tell you, it is so exciting to be here.

I've really been looking forward to this.

My friend Josh and I are out here.

He's from Lagos.

And I'm especially excited that you let me on the stage, especially since I don't have a beard.

So that was really nice.

But we are psyched to be here.

I got to tell you, it is hot.

Now, is this normal?

Don't tell me it's normal.

It's normal.

Man, it is hot, let me tell you.

I'm not saying that it's like record hot or anything, but on my way from the hotel,

I did see two palm trees fighting over a dog.

So you can figure that one out.

But listen, I want to tell you about Lagos Bible Software.

This is a tool that I use every day.

My wife and I have six children, all of them boys, except the four that

are girls.

And we homeschool, and we've used this for 17 years.

I first started using it in the classroom.

I'm a professor at a Bible college and seminary.

But it is a tool that has just revolutionized our family in terms of making the word of God central to

all that we do.

And so we wanted to come in, Lagos asked me to come in, just highlight a few features, kind of tell you all about it, and

then give you a chance to hopefully go home with it if you think it would benefit you.

So let me just give you a sneak peek.

What you see on the screen here is called the homepage.

And the homepage is kind of where you do your personal spiritual disciplines, you know, your quiet time, your

Bible reading plan.

You can pick a book in your library, you can read through it, set up a reading plan.

Your prayer list, you can see that kind of over here on the left.

It's where you're gonna choose your default Bible for all of your studies.

Lagos comes standard with 15 or 20 English versions, everything you've heard of.

So you set your preferred Bible, and that's what's gonna default to as you're studying.

But the real power of Lagos is right here in this one box.

Everybody say one box.

One box.

One button.

One button.

It doesn't get any easier than that.

One box, one button.

Enter a passage of scripture and click go.

So I'm gonna enter one of my favorite passages, and I'm not just saying that, Ephesians 1.

So I enter Ephesians 1, click go.

And just like that, Lagos is gonna go out and run a report that would basically be 30 to

40 hours of serious research in about seven to 10 seconds.

So it's just an amazing, amazing time saver.

And as you're gonna see, it's gonna kind of dig deeper than you could ever dig just doing it on your own.

Lagos is two things, for those of you who may never have seen it.

It's a library and a research assistant all wrapped up into one.

They've been around 25 years.

There's three and a half million Lagos users in the world.

It's standard in 1 ,500 Bible colleges, seminaries, and institutes.

That's where I got connected with Lagos.

It is kind of the tool of choice if you're serious about theological research and Bible study.

So let me explain what you see on the screen.

It's pretty cool here.

When I typed in Ephesians 1, it's like this research assistant went to the nearest seminary library and

said, give me everything you got to help me understand Ephesians 1.

So the first thing that pops up here in the center of the screen is our Bible, the most important book in the

library, right?

I think it was Spurgeon that famously said, never forget the Bible will shed a lot of light on commentaries.

And I think that's a good reminder.

Especially with digital software, it's so easy to kind of dive right into those commentaries because we've got dozens of world -class

commentaries at our fingertips.

But never forget to start with the Word.

So you're familiar with this passage, I'm sure.

Blessed be the God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places,

even as he chose us.

All right, so you're reading your Bible and you say, you know, I want to do a little word study.

How many of you recognize the Bible was not written originally in English?

Okay, good.

For the rest of you, no, of course, we know the Bible was not written in English.

It was written over a period of 1500 years in three different languages by some 40 different human authors under the inspiration of the Spirit.

And we then translated it into the language through the centuries.

And so when we want to do a word study, we can just hover the mouse over the word in our English Bible, or

I can right click on it and I can say, run the full word study.

And watch this, just like that, Logos goes out and finds me every time this word

occurs in the Bible, no matter how it's translated.

It'll pronounce it for me.

It'll give me the definition from different Greek lexicons.

So you can see here, this is the word eklegomai, and it means to choose, to select, to prefer.

I can go down here, I can see the root words, like lego, to say, or to tell.

And I can just dive in with one click and be off to the races with doing some serious

word studies, find out where else it's used.

And then we read on, we see another word, same thing.

I just right click on, say, for example, the word predestined, and I say, give me the word study on this.

I mean, this is basically a one week assignment that it would take first year Greek students to do in a week by hand.

And Logos puts it all on the screen for us.

So again, it'll pronounce it for me.

It's gonna tell me the meaning and what the different lexicons say, where else it's used.

This particular word's only used six times in the Greek text.

So already, by just right clicking on a couple of words, we've done more than you could normally do with just a

traditional print Bible.

Now, as we go back over here to the passage guide, notice all these commentaries.

As I click on them, Logos takes me to the next commentary in my list.

I can underline and highlight.

If you like to write in the margin of your Bibles, you can do all of that with Logos.

And the cool thing is, it synchronizes across all of your devices.

So Logos works on any device.

So it works on a Mac or a PC.

So, you know, Christians and non -Christians can use it.

It works on your, that's a joke, by the way.

Obviously, I'm in a PC crowd.

My wife's a PC person.

I'm a Mac person.

We're kind of unequally yoked.

But anyway, she reminds me all the time, Adam and Eve chose the Apple and look what it did to the rest of us.

But anyway, it works on your iOS, your Android.

You can take it with you wherever you go and it synchronizes across those platforms.

So in the time it would take you to pull one commentary off the shelf, you've got dozens of commentaries open right to this passage in

Ephesians 1.

Let's say you find, like this is R .C. Sproul.

So let's say you find something that you think is helpful.

You can select it with the mouse.

You can right -click.

You can say copy.

Then you can go over here and you can open up Microsoft Word.

You can paste anything from any book in your library.

Logos is gonna automatically footnote for you at the bottom of the page telling you exactly where you got that from.

You can also go over here and right -click and say visual copy.

And Logos is gonna create custom slides for you from your books that you can then incorporate into your

presentation if you do any small group teaching, preaching, any of that kind of thing.

All of this directly from the text itself.

Now let's see what else our research assistant found.

You've got outlines.

It scoured my library and found any book in my library that outlines Ephesians 1 expositionally.

It's got cross -references, all those center column notes that compare scripture with scripture, ready for us to

just hover the mouse and we can begin to compare what those passages have to say.

And then I've got ancient literature.

I love this tool.

Logos goes in and finds anything, Augustine, Polycarp, Arrhenius, Origin, anytime they ever referenced

Ephesians 1 or even alluded to it in the ancient literature.

Then I've got confessional documents.

So I can go in here and say, hey, what are some of the reformed creeds and how do they relate to

Ephesians 1 and when do they reference Ephesians 1?

All at my fingertips.

Cultural concepts.

So many times understanding the text comes down to understanding an idiom or a metaphor or something unique to the first

century Greco -Roman world or in the Old Testament, the ancient Near East.

So it's gonna address all of those things and take me out to manners and customs books and commentaries that address those issues.

Let me show you a couple other favorite features of mine.

Obviously we live in a visual age.

As you're reading the text, Logos is gonna bring up infographics that relate to the text.

So it really begins to come alive.

So here you see a theater in Ephesus.

Here you see a map of Ephesus in Paul's day.

You can look at what an ancient home synagogue looked like.

You can zoom in or out with these tools.

You can copy and paste them right into a document or into PowerPoint or Keynote.

So again, as you're reading the text, you've got all of this interactive information right at your fingertips.

You've got searching.

Obviously that's the real power of a digital library.

Let's say I wanted to find anything in my library where the word kingdom is mentioned.

So it's literally gonna scour.

And by the way, it found 201 ,000 hits in this particular library on this computer.

And it took 1 .1 seconds, which is a little slow by the way.

We try to get it under a second.

I apologize for that.

Your time is valuable, I understand.

But I can then begin to click and read it.

Now, obviously that's a pretty unwieldy amount of results.

So you can narrow the search.

You can say, where does Piper ever mention kingdom?

How many times does Sproul mention it in this book?

And where does he mention it?

And you can begin to really get to information now that you can't walk up to your print library

and shout justification and have every book that deals with justification jump off the shelf, land on your desk, open to

the right page, all the scripture passages, all the theological, systematic theology books ready to deal with that

page.

So there's a whole lot more I could show you, but I think you're beginning to get the idea.

Down here in the bottom right, you've got a text comparison.

I know it's kind of small on the screen, but what it does is it allows me to see how this passage is translated in all

the other English versions.

So as I'm scrolling down, it's got NIV, NASB, New King James, ESV, NLT,

even the message.

You can put in whatever ones you want, and it'll show you those passages for you.

Now, there's a lot more I could show you, but we're gonna be here the rest of the conference.

Let me close out by telling you about the partnership with ReformCon and how you can get this software.

By the way, here's what that slide looks like if you put it actually in a PowerPoint or keynote slide.

So pretty awesome being able to really communicate some of these great truths from some of these authors.

And by the way, some pastors have asked, is there a way to quote these guys without listing their names so they can kind of take

credit for these great theological insights?

And there is a way to do that.

I'll show you how to do that for the right price.

But again, you can take this anywhere with you.

Here's just some screenshots of what it looks like on your iPads and mobile devices and so forth.

So here's the deal.

At the conference only, 15 % discount, but you get a 30 -day money -back guarantee.

So what my suggestion is, you'll never get it cheaper any other time.

This is the place to get it at the event.

Take it home, play with it, you will never look back.

Again, we've had it 17 years.

It's just, it's amazing.

This is Logos 6.

It's their sixth release in about 25 years.

I'm just gonna highlight some of the base packages.

Now, we've selected the reformed base packages for obvious reasons, because we're reformed here at this conference.

I'm just gonna mention three of them, but remember, there are smaller packages and larger packages and the name of the game in Logos is the

library.

The bigger the library, the more powerful the research tool becomes.

But I wanted to highlight some of the great reformed resources and scholarship that come in these packages.

So first of all, the basic library, the bronze collection, it has 380 books,

includes 62 commentaries, 28 systematic theologies.

Now, if you were to take this list of nearly 400 books to the bookstore and say, give me these titles, they would charge your

credit card about $6 ,000, load up your minivan or your car with boxes of books, you'd take them home and put them on the

shelf.

The Logos price for the software and all of the library is usually about a dime on the dollar.

It's actually a little bit less than that for this one.

But if you get it at the conference, you're gonna save about $100, so it's 535.

Now, you think about getting a $6 ,000 library for 535, that's a pretty good deal, but it's still, we understand a little

bit of an investment upfront.

So Logos allows you to do this over payments.

You can do 10 payments for 62 bucks on your credit card if that's the way you wanna do it.

You don't have to do that, and it saves you a little money to do it in full.

The Reformed Silver Library then jumps up to nearly 700 volumes, so double the size of the library.

It's got 182 commentaries, just an amazing collection.

This is a $10 ,000 value.

The normal cost, if you buy it after the conference, is 1 ,000 bucks.

Obviously, if you save 15%, you're gonna save 150 bucks.

If you did it on the installment plan, it would be about 81 bucks a month.

And then finally, the last one I wanna mention is the Logos Gold Collection.

This has all of the features of Logos 6.

It's a phenomenal library, 1 ,000 volumes, 200 commentaries, just some amazing resources,

it's a $16 ,000 value.

The normal cost for the software and that library is about 1 ,500 or 1 ,300 if you get it here at

the conference.

That works out to about 99 bucks a month for 15 months.

Now, here are some, just a short list that I put together reviewing this this afternoon, some of our favorite

authors that would be in these collections.

I mean, you get the R .C. Sproul Collection, you get Kuyper, you get the works of John Owen, you get the Spurgeon Collection,

Hodge, Warfield, just an amazing selection and much more.

And I encourage you to stop by and talk to Josh and he can kinda go into which package has which one.

But I love this quote.

I threw this in there just for our crowd here.

Your character tells the world you're a real man.

Your beard is merely the exclamation point.

But anyway, so remember, lifetime license.

You can take it with you wherever you go.

There's no limit on the number of installations as long as it's for you personally, for your convenience.

You can't give it to a friend or colleague.

Free tech support for life, 30 -day money -back guarantee.

And again, you get that 15 % discount.

So thank you guys very much.

I'm having the time of my life here.

Come by and see us.

We'll be here through the end of the conference tomorrow.

Take it home, give it a shot.

You're gonna love doing research using Logos Bible Software.

Thank you guys.

God bless you.

It's okay in your

world view.

I'm an animal.

You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt.

It's you hung up on me.

You hung up on me.

What?

What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples.

Not go into the world and make buddies.

Not to make brosives.

Right.

Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right.

Disciples.

I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, Pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

What's up, guys?

Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

This is our live Apologia Radio.

All right, this is where you guys come in.

Our first live Apologia Radio.

It's about to get hype.

That means you can't tell me to stop and put a marker there.

That's right.

And not say that.

You have no idea how much that happens.

We go, mark it.

All the time.

Mark it.

Mark it, Marcus.

You never hear that, though.

Hold on.

Mark it.

There you go.

You see?

So, there was a... You hear Darren Dillon in the background?

Oh, oh.

That's it.

We had a little competition yesterday, and it was which podcast has the best music.

And we were number one.

At our own conference.

At our own conference.

How's that work?

I think that was an unbiased report.

That's right.

When I took the poll, I said non -Apologia Radio.

You said...

Oh, whatever.

Let's take a poll now.

Generally speaking...

Generally speaking, this is what I deal with every time.

And I'm always like, mark it.

Erase her voice, Marcus, out of the recording.

Generally speaking, it's my music playing in the background.

Do you guys enjoy it or what?

Like, okay.

All right.

So, when Luke...

Generally.

Generally.

In the background, that's me, right?

No?

You guys probably recognize this track by now, don't you?

Yeah, we do.

We split with it.

The intro music, we split like that.

That's true.

That is true.

We need to get Joy.

Patriarchy movement.

No.

So, it's been an exciting week.

It's been a lot of exciting talks and informative talks.

We've got a chance today to hear from Nate Wilson, which was amazing, right?

It was a blessing.

Darren Doan, my favorite.

Dr. K. Scott Oliphant.

Apologetics, ninja, philosophy, theology kind of stuff is amazing.

There's a feeling here.

There's an atmosphere to all this.

And it feels very much like...

This is when your jokes don't work.

Now we know.

Everybody, as a fan of Apology Air Radio, you know how much we love the movie The

Apostle.

But Joy's favorite.

Do you realize, of course, that Joy, when we started mentioning the movie The Apostle,

she immediately said, no, I haven't seen it.

And when she saw the look that she got from us, that she hasn't seen it, she's held on to that.

It's a matter of sanctification for her.

She likes that it hurts us.

And so she has committed herself to never watching The Apostle, even though most of our listeners have seen The

Apostle.

And you know, it hurts, Joy.

It does.

So, first live episode of Apology Air Radio.

Marcus, what do you think of the conference so far?

It's awesome.

Everybody here is awesome.

So thanks for coming out.

I think Nate and Darren's talk was amazing, both of them.

And I'm just tired.

So that would be, it's a tiring conference.

It's a good conference.

It's a good conference.

We're not done yet.

Not done.

One more day left, yeah.

Let's go, we got one more day?

Concert tonight, the concert tonight.

Wow, that's awesome.

Eshawn.

No, I'm just kidding.

No, it's really great, it's really great.

Yeah.

Really great.

So, Luke, how do you feel about the conference so far?

How are things?

It's all right.

Good?

That's classic Luke.

That's good.

It's been awesome.

I am very tired though.

I just had about a gallon of coffee.

I could use another five gallons.

So, once Darren gets on, I think things, I might lighten up a little bit.

Okay, all right.

I gotta stay awake till then.

It's gonna get weird.

It's gonna get weird.

Yeah.

No, it's been really awesome.

You spoke on something yesterday.

What did you speak on?

You spoke, reforming social media.

Jinx.

So, tell everyone about it.

And specifics?

And now you're gonna reverse all that by saying some really crazy stuff and lying in front of everybody because you're super

tired.

Yeah, no, basically, the world's done, I think, with two issues, idleness and not loving

one another.

So, I kind of spoke on that and gave some specific examples of how we can

use social media in a way that glorifies God and how we as a church are using it in a way that does not glorify

God.

And so, you can see that if you're All Access, right?

You know how that works?

The breakout sessions.

The breakout sessions will be on All Access, which is only a donation of $7 .95 per month.

You get over 30 episodes, after shows.

The Academy.

The Academy.

And you make this possible.

Speaking of Academy, we're going next week.

Are you?

Yep, next week.

You don't have a plane ticket yet, do you?

Nope.

Okay, well, next week, we're going to Moscow, Idaho, and we're filming, is it six?

Yeah, six three -hour lectures from New St. Andrews professors just for the

Apology Academy.

And Doug Wilson's going to be part of that.

Nate is not.

Nate is not.

No, Doug Wilson's going to be preaching on Worldview.

So, we're going to have a three -hour talk from Doug Wilson on Worldview.

Nice.

In addition to a whole bunch of other stuff.

That's going to be great.

Is this Darren's talk from Worldview?

I was wondering if you were going to play that.

What?

There's been a few of that.

Oh, it's a clip from Darren's talk.

I saw that, dude.

I saw that, dude.

I saw that, dude.

Okay, sorry.

While they're talking, I'm just here trying to find cute little videos to play.

Right, right.

What's that?

Oh, speaking of social media, wait, wait.

Can we do something?

I want to try something and see if it works.

No, I've got to try this.

Okay.

Okay, Google.

Ah.

I've seen it, like, the people at the conventions and they say, okay, Google.

And like, everybody's phones just go crazy.

But it doesn't work.

Oh, well, anyway.

I think you guys, can you guys just real quick,.

Like, grab your phone and just, like, share the live stream of the show, like, all at once.

And then that way we can, like.

Are you telling me I can do it right now, just, like, randomly?

You can just share.

Okay, Google.

It's listening.

It's listening all the time.

I've never seen the video.

I just wanted to try it out.

I've always wanted to try it out.

It just looked up, it's listening all the time.

Hey, it does listen all the, it's that mute.

Someone call Edward Snowden.

Wow, that is crazy.

I thought you had to do some kind of fancy little thing to it.

No, it does.

It actually just listens all the time.

Well, speaking of reforming.

Except for the one time you wanted to listen.

That's true.

So, speaking of reforming social media, if you want to know why Pastor Luke would have to give a talk on reforming social media,

just look in the comments of the live stream as we speak.

Right now, it's happening as we speak.

So, Joy, how do you feel about, it's possible, we could probably

pull some of those up.

We can actually watch our live stream right now while we're doing the live show.

It's amazing.

It's totally better.

Yeah, so, Joy.

We can see how well you're doing, Carmen.

How do you feel about ReformCon so far, Joy, the girl?

It's great.

Yeah?

Yeah, it's fun.

Don't you guys love that Joy's back on Apologia Radio like all the time now?

And you have to see really what she looks like when she comes in on Thursdays to record the show with us.

She's been up all night and then she usually, sometimes we are taking a long time to

get stuff done, so she's hanging around, hanging around until we can complete everything.

And so, she'll be there sometimes till like three or four in the afternoon.

She hasn't slept yet.

So, thank you, Joy.

Except for the masks on the couch.

That's true.

Both days are over, though.

To get it together.

That's true.

To support that job.

Oh, right on, right on.

Maybe Joy will go to work full -time for Apologia Radio.

What do you guys think?

Yeah.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

I'll do that.

For every committee.

Yeah.

No longer a committee.

You wanna commit now for everyone?

All right, so since we're here, we wanted to do some live interviews with some of our

speakers.

And so, we're gonna invite up to the stage right now.

We didn't actually even ask his permission, which is the way you get things done.

You just, you commit people and you don't ask.

So, I didn't even get to ask Dr. Oliphant,.

Would you?

This is the first time he's been asked?

No, I mean.

Right now?

No, no, earlier I ran into him and, you know, I found out that he didn't know and, you know, so.

No, he.

You didn't know?

Yeah, no, I didn't know, so.

So, he was like, oh, I didn't even know I was gonna be on the show.

I was like, yeah.

That's right.

I'm looking up to him.

Okay, good.

So, Dr. K. Scott Oliphant is someone I greatly admire

and I do wanna say that if you have not read Dr. Oliphant, if you haven't

been listening to him, I wanna encourage you guys, if you're into apologetics, if you're into theology and

understanding the word of God, Dr. Oliphant is somebody you really need to get into

and really learn from.

When it comes to apologetics today, I said this on, I think, the last broadcast, I said that I

think that Dr. James White, to my mind, is one of the great gifts to the church because I don't know of anybody in church history

and I may be missing somebody who has done so many debates with so many different

worldviews and he does it in such a comprehensive way.

So, it's Mormonism, the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society.

When you talk about even atheism today, he's gone against Dan Barker.

Is it David Silverman?

He's really gone across a broad spectrum.

And Islam, and so, I don't think there's anybody, to my mind, in the Christian church, in the history of the Christian church, that has

really gone into that many debates with that many different worldviews and really just given

the church such a great deposit of resources.

I know I heard Darren earlier talking about Dr. White being like the motherboard where you can just sort of like, okay, I can get

anywhere I need to go.

So, he's a great blessing and help to the church.

Well, that's me, but there's a little bit of a delay.

That's uncomfortable.

But Dr. Olyphant, to my mind, I said this last week, that Dr. Olyphant, to my mind,

is the greatest living teacher of presuppositional or covenantal apologetics,

whatever you want to call it.

I think he's the best.

He's really helpful to me.

Dr. Bonson is responsible for a lot of what I know about apologetics,

and he was just a real gift to the church.

But Dr. Olyphant teaches things in such a way and explains things in such a way that

really helps.

So, a lot of times people listen to Bonson, they'll be like, okay, it sounds really biblical and amazing, but I still don't get it.

Well, if you're that kind of person that goes, well, I still don't get it, I think Dr. Olyphant does a superb job of

helping to fill everything out and explain just how this comes from the Bible.

So, if you read his book, Covenantal Apologetics, if you haven't read it, sell your shirt and shoes and go buy the book and

then read it.

If you read Covenantal Apologetics, you'll see what I mean.

You get into the book and you're immediately reading about Jesus in the gospel according to

John, and you're understanding how all these things are interconnected, and I do actually respect

and like and almost prefer the change

from language and description between presuppositional apologetics and covenantal

apologetics.

I like what Dr. Olyphant is doing there in terms of explaining what it really means and its approach.

So, it's a great honor and blessing for us in our first live broadcast like this to

welcome to the stage Dr. K. Scott Olyphant.

Come on up, sir.

And someone in the live feed said, it's about time we addressed the Olyphant in the room.

Actually, that's what we named our show was The Olyphant in the Room.

And so, Dr. Olyphant is a professor at Westminster

Theological Seminary, a fantastic school, basically Presbyterian school, right?

Nobody's perfect, so.

Well, the faculty, all the faculty subscribe to Westminster Confession.

Our student body from over 40 different countries and 100 plus denominations.

So, in that way, it's not just Presbyterian.

We graduate more Presbyterians than we bring in because that's our goal.

And if any of you want to come, we will make you a Presbyterian in three short years because it's in the Bible.

Hey, Dr. Olyphant, it's been great having you on.

Thank you, Dr. Olyphant.

You've been wonderful today on first broadcast of Olyphant.

So, I learned this, Dr. Olyphant.

It's kind of weird.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Okay, okay.

I learned this recently that, is it Westminster in Philly has a

large population of Korean students?

Yes, large population of Korean and Asian students.

That's amazing.

The missionary Bruce Hunt went over decades ago and established Christianity there.

There's a large Presbyterian population in South Korea.

If you're going to be a pastor in Korea of any note, now the story goes, you need to have a Westminster

degree.

So, we educate a lot of Koreans.

I know people who do reformed Korean hip hop.

What?

Like, it's like super popular.

That's next level right there.

Really?

And they're like really talented.

You have no idea what they're saying.

You're talking about me, then.

You do reformed Korean hip hop?

No, I'm not.

That's awesome.

We actually have a number of college students who are from a Korean Presbyterian background.

Yes, yeah, fantastic.

Cho -cho.

Cho -cho.

Cho -cho.

So, that means like the Presbyterians are like dominating in South Korea,

right on.

Really, it's really good.

So, we should have the Baptists take over North Korea and we'll have a battle, right?

I'd like to see that battle.

That battle would be a lot better.

Yeah, that'd be a much better fight to have.

So, I thought it'd be really a gift to talk to Dr. Oliphant

about two things, because it's really special and unique.

One, is I wanted to talk to you about your relationship with Dr. Cornelius Van Til, because that is,

I think, a good story.

So, I mentioned earlier when I introduced you that your lecture at the Bonson Conference

is my favorite lecture on Christian apologetics.

And some people might wonder like, why, why, why that one?

I think that it was how you brought everything down to its foundation and God,

and God being the reference point, and you just did it in such a clear way.

It was helpful.

But you also talk about your relationship with Dr. Cornelius Van Til, and that I really, really enjoyed.

So, maybe a lot of people watching this right now on a live stream around the world don't know a lot about Dr. Cornelius Van Til.

So, can maybe you bring us into that discussion, Cornelius Van Til, what he brought into the world,

the Reformed world with apologetics, and your relationship with him.

Right, yeah, thanks.

And thanks for your hospitality.

All of you, it's been great to be here, even at 113 degrees.

Yes.

It's just been a real treat for us to be here.

Good. I'm very happy.

Dr. Van Til came to Westminster in 1929, when Westminster was founded.

J. Gresham Machen, who founded Westminster because he was kicked out of the Liberal Presbyterian Church for being

conservative.

He started a church, a seminary in Philadelphia.

And Van Til had graduated and was pastoring out in the Midwest.

And Machen called and said, please come.

And Van Til said, no.

And Machen called and said, please, please come.

And Van Til said, no, no.

And so Machen went out to the Midwest and sort of like Pharrell to Calvin and said, this is the will of God for

your life.

So Van Til resigned his pastorate and came in 1929.

Machen then died of pneumonia in 1936.

So really Westminster was shaped in large part by Dr. Van Til and his approach.

His approach to apologetics, what he was tasked to do as a professor of apologetics was to

make apologetics more reformed than it had been, and especially more reformed than it had been at

Princeton.

Van Til studied apologetics at Princeton, so he knew what they were teaching.

He sat in the chairs and he was a student there.

And when he was asked to teach at Westminster, he told Dr. Machen, he said, I know that we're here to carry on Princeton's tradition,

but we can't do it in apologetics.

We've got to move in another direction.

And Machen said, good for you.

You're the man to do it.

So he really shaped reformed apologetics for the next few decades.

I came into contact with Dr. Van Til.

This could be a very long story, but I'll try to shorten it.

I was a relatively new Christian taking a philosophy class at the university where I attended from a man who was

a Christian, dear man, still living.

And he taught a course on Francis Schaeffer at a secular university, because he had a course that he

entitled Issues in Philosophy.

And he told me the reason I did that is because I can teach anything I want and it's issues in philosophy.

So we had a course on Francis Schaeffer.

I hadn't heard of Schaeffer at that point.

And then after that course came Christianity Today magazine.

This is in December of 1977.

Yes.

And that magazine appeared in my mailbox.

And I remember picking it up and on the cover of the magazine was a picture of this elderly white haired

gentleman.

And it said the legacy of a down to earth scholar.

And I opened it up and it was an interview with Dr. Van Til.

And part of what it said is Van Til has taught such luminaries as E .J. Carnell and

Francis Schaeffer.

So I thought to myself, I should probably read the guy that taught Schaeffer.

So I went down, this is when you had to do this kind of thing.

I went down to a bookstore and I said, I want this book, A Sense of the Faith.

And this guy said, I've never heard of the book.

I've never heard of the author.

So he gets this big tome out that's books in print.

And he says, okay, it'll be here in a month.

It took a month.

So Van Til's book came a month later and I started pouring over it, reading it as much as I could.

I was in Texas in the middle of the panhandle, nobody there, nobody to help.

And I was having trouble with some of what he was saying.

So I brought it to my philosophy professor and I said, I need some help here.

So he took the book for a while and we met over coffee one day and he said, I don't know what he's saying either.

So as a young kid, I didn't know what to do.

And I noticed there was an address on the back of the book, Westminster Seminary Field Box 27009, Philadelphia.

So I thought, okay, I'm gonna write him and see if I can get any help here.

So I wrote Westminster and I said, anything you can do to help me here, I'm reading through this and I have some questions.

I'm just not sure what to do.

And they said, oh, we've checked with Dr. Van Til.

He wants you to write him.

So that was good news.

So I just began to write him questions.

I would be reading along and I'd say, what do you mean when you say this?

And it worked this way.

This was such a treat to me.

It was like Christmas every week.

I would send off a letter and a week to the day that I would mail it.

Would come into my mailbox, the spiral pages that were torn out of a spiral,

folded into a small envelope stuffed full of his seven or eight or nine page written response

to my questions.

And we continued back and forth for a while, two or three years,

to the point where I finally said, you know, I really need to have a conversation with this man.

I wonder if he would come to Texas.

So I wrote him and I said, would you like to come down for a few days?

Help some of us neophytes figure out what you're up to.

He said, I'd be happy to do it.

So he came down to Texas and stayed with us for about four days.

He said, here's the condition.

If I come down, you're going to have to take a walk with me every day.

And I thought, you know, I'm in my twenties.

I can walk with this oxygenarian.

Well, I'll tell you what, that guy, he picked them up and put them down.

And he would, every day, he would go on a two mile walk and it would just be huffing and puffing all the way through.

And it was, you know, I look back, I wish I'd had one of those little, you know, little recorder in the phone because I was just peppering him with questions.

Tell me about nation.

Tell me about your time at Princeton when you taught there, when you were a student there.

Tell me about early days at Westminster.

And on and on he'd go, story after story, just a fascinating time with him.

And then we'd get into some of the issues.

That he wrote about.

So all of that led to my fascination with Van Til and by the time I went to

Westminster as a student, I'd read everything that was published on Van Til because I

just couldn't get enough of it.

And he was just a dear and gracious man.

And so I finally wrote him and I said, looks like I'm coming to seminary.

And he wrote back and he said, good, why don't you stay with me while you find housing?

So I went to Philadelphia and I stayed with him for a little over two weeks.

And he said, use my car and you can just drive around and get whatever housing you want.

So he said, here's a condition, if you're gonna stay with me, you're gonna have to go on a walk.

I said, I know, I'm gonna have to go on a walk.

So we'd go on this walk and I've written about this in a couple of places.

This is something that has never left me.

It really struck me when I was walking with him.

Every neighbor that he introduced me to, anyone along the path to my walk, and he would introduce me to various

people, every person to the person, that's not an exaggeration, would say something like this to me.

Oh, I guess he's talking to you about Jesus too, isn't he?

Because that's what he did.

Every neighbor knew him as a man who would talk about Jesus.

He told me of a neighbor whose wife had been ill and Van Til had gone to the hospital to pray with her and the neighbor said,

don't you go there again because I don't believe in your God.

And Van Til said, I won't and I'll pray for you too.

He was a man with a heart for the Lord and that's what drove his defense of Christianity.

That's what drove his apologetic.

That's what drove his love for the Bible.

And I count it a real privilege to have known him even in his later years.

He was just a dear and gracious saint.

Wow, what a story.

Do you still have those letters?

I do.

Do you plan to publish them?

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

You know, it's one of those things.

Yeah, I don't know.

Well, let me ask you, this is kind of a personal thing, but when like you got to get Van Til out to you and then go,

you lived with Van Til, you lived with Cornelius Van Til, were you going fanboy the first

couple of times?

Like with me to you, when I swear on you, I'm fanboy and I have to try to contain it and act professional.

I'm like.

Yeah, I think, I think, I think.

Just an honest moment, Dr. Oliphant.

No, it can't be that way because Van Til was a great, you know, he was just, there's nobody like the man.

And when I came to Westminster and took the position, I was very well aware and I'm very well aware

of the fact that his shoes cannot be filled.

So I just want to continue the best of what he did without pretending that I could fill his shoes.

But the nice thing about Dr. Van Til is, you know, I did what some of you have done.

I brought him, you know, a few of the books and I said, would you sign those?

And he would sign, you know, Cornelius Van Til, and then he started signing Uncle K because that was the nickname people would, you know,

Cornelius K is the nickname in the Dutch, K -U -E -S.

So he just signed Uncle K, Uncle K.

So he was very humble and disarming in that way.

And we really became friends.

I respected him and would, you know, do whatever he would ask and think whatever he told me to think.

I just had that, you know, you tell me to think that way, I'm gonna start thinking that way and see what happens.

But he very much, you know, put me at ease fairly quickly.

And, you know, I remember one walk,.

I remember where we were.

And I said, tell me about Gordon Clark because that's where a lot of friction had happened in the 40s in

the OPC.

And the first thing out of his mouth, he said, I prayed for him every day.

And then he said, and he's a better philosopher than I ever was.

And he said, I wish we could have worked more closely together.

So there was no, you know, I don't know, people might get this way sometimes.

There was no bitterness in the man.

He loved the Lord.

He loved his gospel.

And to his last days, that's what he wanted propagated.

Amazing.

So a lot of people may have missed it.

And I mentioned it today at the beginning, but I think it's interesting.

The movie Collision, we're gonna bring Darren up in a moment here.

The movie Collision, Douglas Wilson versus Christopher Hitchens.

There's a really interesting scene.

There's a scene where Wilson is in a pub talking to Christopher Hitchens.

Christians drinking with unbelievers.

Okay.

Christians drinking with unbelievers.

What?

Yeah. Seriously.

Yeah.

And that's right.

But there was a man in there too.

And when I first saw it, I was like, that's Dr. Oliphant.

So you got, you were actually in that circle when that was happening.

That conversation, that debate tour.

Tell me something about maybe your interaction with Christopher Hitchens.

What was that like?

Because he is this, I mean, he's my favorite atheist.

I mean, really, I loved Christopher Hitchens.

Just I think just the way he communicated.

And I think I would have been able to be friends with him just because I love how honest he was at times.

And what was it like engaging with one of the most famous atheists in the last 100 years?

Well, it was a great thing for me.

As the series developed, the Collision Series, you know, we got a call at Westminster.

Would you allow us to come and do this thing?

And I was very excited to be able to moderate that and to watch that take place.

And before, the interesting thing to me, before the debate actually happened, we all met for dinner at a

relatively, a very nice place, actually, near the seminary in Chestnut Hill.

I think Nate was there, and I think Darren was there.

We had a nice table of folks and had a nice chat with Christopher Hitchens.

And, you know, he made some comment at some point about how nicely he had been treated and how much he had

enjoyed being with these people and being at the seminary.

But after it was, let me just preface this by saying, I've told some of you this, but I'm now just

about finished with the book, The Faith of Christopher Hitchens, that Larry Thompson wrote, which is a fascinating, fascinating

account of the friendship between a Christian and an atheist.

And so some of what he's saying in that book, I'm kind of reflecting on now and seeing some of what he's saying to be true.

But after the dinner was over, the limo pulls up, you know, the suffering Christians, the limo pulls

up for Doug and Hitchens to get in, a few of the others to go to the seminary.

And Christopher turns to me and he goes, I want to ride with you.

So we got in the van together and that was just kind of out of the blue.

Now, I had his book, God is Not Great, and I asked him to sign that.

And then I signed the book, he didn't ask for it, and I gave it to him, reasons for faith.

And I said, if you're ever interested, I'd love to talk with you about this.

And here was his response.

He said, do you think Thomas Aquinas really did fly around the room at the end of his life?

I said, what?

Well, I'm just curious.

It was one of those questions like, is he making this up or is it?

But we had a nice conversation in the van, some about Christianity, more about George

W. Bush and the war and how he had turned and become in favor of the Iraqi war and a hater of

terrorism.

But I thought the night was a very good night in a lot of ways.

I think he was, I can see now from reading Thomson's book that he was struck very much

by these folks and other Christians that he came in contact with and the way in which he was treated.

And I think Hitchens had two significant insights.

Sin is real and sin poisons everything.

And not all Christianity is the same.

And I think that sort of changed his perspective to some extent when he was

dealing with Christian folks.

So when we were in the pub after the debate was over, by that time, he'd had a good bit

to drink.

So there's a lot of him talking enough with you.

But prior to that, after the dinner, we had a nice conversation in the van.

It was a great time with him.

I'm with you.

I think he was a brilliant man.

He was an excellent writer and a good thinker.

And I think he, I know this, I know he knew God and I hope that in God's

justice there was some change.

Fantastic.

So I thought that would bless everyone rather than just a big, deep theological discussion about apologetics and

philosophy that really interested me.

So two weeks ago, I got a phone call from someone that is a really well -known

Mormon blogger.

And she has a book contract.

And she wrote me.

She's seen a lot of our stuff online.

And she wrote me and described who she is.

And I was like, oh, I actually already know who she is.

And she said, and I want out.

And so I ended up on the phone with her for about two hours, giving her the gospel.

She turned to Christ.

And there's a point I'm getting to here is I said, well, let me help you with some stuff that would be important to start

as a new believer.

And so I got her to the Forgotten Trinity, Dr. James White, some other works, but then I got her

Covenantal Apologetics because I think the work is a blessing.

Number one, it's encouraging.

And it's also just fantastic to firm you up, to give you a good foundation, and to arm you as

a believer as you go engage the world with apologetics.

So Westminster Seminary, if I am correct, still has this, has the iTunes

thing, iTunes University.

And I do believe, unless you've removed it, there is your, I think you have an apologetics course that's up there now

that's available to anybody for free.

Yeah, so you guys can go get that and just, you'll see what I mean by how important this stuff is.

And I would really encourage everyone to get Covenantal Apologetics and to look more into Dr. K. Scott Oliphant.

So thank you, brother.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. God bless you.

Possibly.

There's the music.

All right.

Are we going to break now?

No, no breaks.

Yeah, you got to hold it.

This is a first, this is a first.

If any of us on this stage have a problem with holding it, it's not me.

Every break for Apologia Radio is for me, so you guys know.

So you guys will all know when you hear a break that there's a reason for it.

What's that?

I said it pays the bills and lets us use the restroom every day.

That's right, that's right.

That's really great.

All right, guys, so you guys having a good time?

Yeah?

Is that awesome?

Is that awesome?

I mean, some people can say like, oh, I went to class and I learned from, I don't even know if Bonson

had like, I lived with Cornelius Van Til.

Like.

I have lived with Cypher and Britney Spears.

Yeah.

Not at all the same kind of experience.

Not at all.

No, I doubt it.

So we're going to move on now.

How are you doing, Joy?

Great.

Tattoos are sinful, by the way.

You are also sinful.

So you notice, well, the crowd here is really,.

I was talking to Darren about this earlier.

The crowd here is really interesting.

You have a crowd of a lot of younger people, youngish people, and some of them have gauges and

tattoos and from people from around the country.

I mean, you have Alaska, you have Indiana, Florida, California, Colorado,

Utah.

I'm missing.

Texas.

New York.

How you doing?

How you doing, New York?

What's that?

Yeah, we have some foreigners from Toronto joined us.

And so it's just a really diverse crowd.

And I think this is what I love so much about ReformCon already, is that you've got

Presbyterians in the house.

Presbyterians say what?

What?

That's the best a Presbyterian can do.

You're like, try to get a height.

They're like, ah.

And they're fighting the whole way.

You see it?

They're like, ah.

They're gonna, they feel guilty about, yeah.

Yeah, Reformed Baptists.

Yeah, see?

You see?

You see?

I don't know how to fix this problem, guys.

I mean, what's that?

It's even, okay.

Any other Reform folks, any other denomination?

Anyone pretending to be non -denominational denomination?

Okay.

All right.

But it's a really diverse crowd, and I love that there's an essential unity between

us.

Not everyone here is on the same page eschatologically,.

Baptism, issues of law.

However, there's this essential unity here and just this blessed fellowship, and I think

a commitment to all the core things that really matter a lot.

And I love that this crowd is so willing to fight and to engage, and that's just such a gift, a

tremendous gift to see that essential unity that we have amidst diversity, but the willingness to

get into the world and to spread the gospel and the truths of the Reformation.

Amen?

Amen.

All right, so with that,.

One of the reasons I bring that up is we wanted ReformCon not to just be,

well, you gotta have a conference, right?

Talk about Reformed theology, and we did our conference.

We wanted something that would equip people, be a longstanding resource for people,

but also that would teach people to get flesh on Reformed theology and to get it out into the

world and get out of our ghettos and start moving in the world.

So we invited Darren Doan and Nate Wilson.

We love these guys a bunch, and they've had, for me, they've had such a tremendous impact on me.

Like I said to you guys earlier, I don't know if this conference was for you or for me, I mean, but we wanted to be able to provide

people some foundational things to get into the world and start teaching and heralding, but also Leah, Leah.

Yeah.

Where is Leah?

Is she not here right now?

Leah, just fantastic help with marketing and different things and teaching how to get things out into the world.

So let's invite our good friends.

Darren Doan and Nate Wilson.

Yeah!

All right, you got your microphones?

You got some coffee in you?

Good.

Check one, two.

So, this is Nate Wilson and this is Darren Doan.

Nate Wilson, a little bit of feedback.

Ooh, ooh, hot mic, hot mic, hot mic.

Nate Wilson goes by the name Endy Wilson.

He has written a book called,.

Endy has written some fantastic books, 100 Cupboards, the series.

His newest book was, I saw on Amazon, and I'm not sure exactly how to say this right, but when I went to order it, it was

already listed as a bestseller on Amazon before it was actually released.

It's a trick I have.

Okay.

How much do you have to pay for that?

A lot.

Yeah.

Sorry about all that hot mic situation.

I'm waiting for that.

And so, and just the last thing I'll introduce here, I mentioned it earlier, Notes from the Tilted

World was my first introduction to you.

Of course, I know your dad.

We've had him on the show just a bunch of times.

I love your dad.

He's just really blessed my life.

And so, I didn't know a lot about Nate, and then I get a hold of Notes from the Tilted World, and

it was first the movie itself, no, that

I watched.

Yeah, but you did it in the intro.

I know I did.

Yes, yes.

What's wrong with you, man?

I know, I know.

It's the only thing I saw.

I didn't know a book really existed.

So, it was the film first.

And you have Stinkin' Baptist.

Baptist.

You got baptism in the wrong order, and you got everything in the wrong order.

So, it really blessed me so much that I was like, hey, we're a new church, people coming out of addiction, they need to learn to live

and love God and enjoy his world and stop trying to enjoy these things over God.

So, in line with what everyone needed to know in the beginning of their relationship with Jesus, that most of them

hadn't even been into a church.

It was all a new experience, and so it was just such a great help for our church at the very, very beginning.

And so, I actually got Notes from the Tilted World, a book, started reading that, and it just rocked me.

And your talk today was very much in line with that.

So, I'd love to talk about that.

And then Darren, his film Collision, Free Speech Apocalypse, all that he has done really just inspires me because you guys are

actually in the world interacting with the world.

So, it's just a gift to have you guys here.

Fun to be here.

It's great to be here.

Good.

Great to be here, Jeff.

Okay, thank you, Darren.

So, do you wanna open up with anything?

Well, I just wanna say, like one thing I admire about both of you is you guys are not, and you've talked a lot about this

at the convention, is that you guys don't, you're not like, you're not just doing the Christian thing.

No, no, brother.

You don't.

So, I guess I just wanna ask, like, have you guys sold out?

Well, yeah.

I bought the guy a great price.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I hope not.

Yeah.

I sold out a long time ago, but the check bounced.

Yeah.

So, it didn't count.

Think about that for a moment.

It didn't count.

So, I noticed in the Tilted World, I actually wrote, I was writing novels first, and I had a

funny moment with Random House where they, my editor asked me if I could please write a statement of faith

that they could just have on file because they were getting so many concerned,

stressed out people saying, why are you publishing this guy?

Don't you know he's a total freak?

He believes these crazy things.

So, my editor at a secular house, the biggest secular house there is, Random House, said, this is really embarrassing, but could you

please write a statement of faith that we could just have on file to send out when we hear from angry people who

say, no, this is what he thinks, and send it out, because that was hilarious.

So, yeah, I wrote it for them, but then I thought that basically, people were thinking they had, that I was keeping a

secret, that my faith was a secret that I was trying to hide.

They were trying to sniff it out and reveal me, uncover me as a Christian.

And so, I knew it was time to kind of just write my manifesto of faith, put it on record,

put it out there, and that was Notes from the Tilted World.

Just to kind of yell clues at everyone.

Yes, I am.

This is what I am.

And there's no secret.

There's no secret to uncover.

I'm not hiding this.

This is who I am.

Anybody who reads Notes from the Tilted World or reads Death by Living and reads my fiction can see that it's all the same thing.

It's all one piece.

No, it's good, because there's a lot of hostility towards Christian artists

that do things that aren't like specifically evangelistic or ministry -driven.

I could never get a Christian house to publish it.

Yeah.

I mean, that was actually before.

You know, it's not that I sold out on the secular.

It's just that I submitted my novel to Christian houses and they said, no, thank you.

Right, right.

And I thought I was trying to play in the minor leagues and then make it to the major leagues, do the crossover with Michael W. Smith

later.

But it actually just went to the secular publishers and that was it.

I thought it was, if you crossover, make sure you bring the crossover.

What?

Wow.

Is that what Amy Grant told you, though?

Amy Grant.

Again.

Actually, I think it was a story I heard that someone said that someone told POD that, like, hey man,

or men, whoever they were back then.

Right.

Well, I mean, you do stuff all the time, Darren, for just

completely non -evangelistic, non -Christian.

I mean, like, if people knew the music videos that you've done, they would all know.

Like, they would all know.

But then they would be mad at you for doing it, but they listen to the music.

So, like, how can you, as a Christian -.

I can't judge their heart.

It's not a salvation issue.

Right, right.

Well, I was just saying, like, how can you, how do you defend doing, I mean, because people have those questions now, especially, like, with

Cray, and he's, you know, just got bought by, or he did a major publishing deal

from Capitol Records and stuff, and everybody, like, freaked out and was like, holy

cow, like, he's just sold out and he's done, he's, you know, and he's going to hell now, he's

Satan, like, all that stuff is coming up.

Are people really saying that?

People are really saying that.

I'm just glad that we're not in that world.

I know, like, it sounds crazy, but it's the actual conversation that's happening right now, and it's like, how can a

Christian do non -Christian stuff?

We don't.

We don't.

I mean, everything I do is evangelism.

I mean, everything.

I mean, so, and I understand what people mean when they say -.

How is that T -shirt evangelistic right now?

Because, well -.

I'm not making a claim.

It's my home, and it's evangelistic because Jesus Christ is Lord over it.

Hmm. Amen.

Oh, yeah.

Just one more statement, and I'll pull that out, huh?

Back off, Marcus.

How's it evangelistic?

Jesus, just throw Jesus in there?

Whoa, whoa.

I understand what people mean, especially since I sort of came to Christ in the Christian music

boom, you know?

How did that happen?

You know, and that, here comes, and -.

Clearly faith alone.

Ready or not, boom.

And so everyone was, you know, as, it's so funny.

I mean, I became a Christian 16, 17 years ago, and I remember, I remember being with Christian artists

going on tour with them, and promoters coming out and being like, you

cannot talk about Jesus when you come in here.

I mean, it was, it was hostile.

I mean, it was, it was crazy.

And then within 10 years, it was just like, there was, there was no more issue, you know?

But I remember during those 10 years of, you know, when I came to Christ,

you heard the narrative, and it's well, and there's, I'm a,

you know, I think we heard it yesterday when, you know, what was her name, Leah, Leah?

Leah.

Leah said, you know, that she's a musician that happens to be a Christian, you know?

And I heard that as I was sort of growing up as a Christian in that, I heard that line a lot.

And I understood what people meant by it.

And then one day I was like, oh, hell no.

I'm a Christian artist.

I'm a Christian.

I'm a Christian everything.

I'm not a person who happens to be a Christian.

I'm a Christian, like, no, everything that I do.

Yeah.

I happen to write.

I don't happen to be a Christian.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I just, and there was, there was something, like, and maybe it's that contrarian in me.

Maybe it's that old punk rock thing, but it's like, as everyone was kind of going with this safe, it's like, no,

I'm a Christian.

Everything I do is Christian.

And so I would, I would push back a little bit on that.

And I think in the spirit of the Reformation, I think that needs to be pushed back a little bit on, is like, no, we

are unapologetic.

Like, no, like, no, I'm a Christian.

Everything I do is Christian.

I go make a music video for Kid Rock.

I'm making a Christian music video.

For Kid Rock.

For Kid Rock, right?

And he has to adhere to my standards.

Yeah.

Or else I don't do it.

And that's actually how I ended up doing a Kid Rock video.

I met him doing a Zac Brown music video.

We were hanging out and he had said, hey man, he's like, maybe we should do a video at some point, you know?

I was like, as soon as you're ready to take stripper poles out of your video, call me.

And it was like, two years later, I get a phone call from his manager and said, he says, Bobby says he's ready to take stripper poles out of his

videos and said to call you.

Oh man.

That's how it's done.

That's right.

That's how it's done.

I was gonna follow up, but I was like, when people clap, you gotta just stop.

Well, that's what we try to communicate often and we're not perfect at doing it, is just

when we talk about the Lordship of Jesus Christ over every realm, I think a lot of people's response to that, believers, Christians will

say, well, of course.

But we go, no, no, like, really?

Like, really?

Like, infect the message of Jesus and the biblical worldview to every

single area that the, you know, you brought it up.

This is, no, you did, we all brought it up today.

This is God's world that he's given to us.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Abraham's descendants will inherit the world.

This world belongs to Jesus Christ.

He has all authority over it.

He's given it to his people and this is ours.

It's ours.

If you're not in Christ, you're visiting, right?

And so, film, whether it's music videos, whether it's movie, television, writing,

whatever it is, like, believers should realize that God cares about that.

He cares about it a lot.

And we ought to really be taking ownership of it for the glory of Jesus Christ.

I mean, you have Kid Rock take a stripper pole out of his video because he so values your

work that he says, well, I have to stop sinning to get that quality.

Then I say, we win.

That's dominion.

That's dominion.

And that's what we mean.

And it is, it's not, I wouldn't say it's winning.

It's assuming the center.

It is dominion.

It's asserting your standard, God's standard over there.

So, I mean, as far as it goes, I'm really sympathetic to the whole situation when

people are trying to shake off a brand.

They're trying to shake off Christian as a brand which has been created by marketers,

to actually sell to a particular demographic and with praise trying to say, I'm not just selling to

that brand.

I'm trying to sell to everybody.

That's fantastic.

I've got no problem with that.

But that's not walking away from the cross.

That's walking away from life way or just selling in my place.

Come on Chick -fil -A, stop selling to everybody.

Yeah, exactly.

Stop selling to everyone.

You know, when the Israelites were told to go steal all their neighbor's gold and then run, you know, just, hey, could you

go to your neighbors?

Say you need to borrow that necklace.

Everybody borrow your neighbor's gold and then we're taken off.

You know, plundering the Egyptians really means something.

But we are far more in the situation.

We're now in the promised land.

We're not running from Egypt.

Like we're in the promised land.

Is there happen to be giants here?

Like, will you go over to them and you say, thank you for this land.

Like this is ours now.

Thank you, Capitol Records.

Fantastic.

These are some wonderful grapes that you have.

That are now mine.

So I have no problem.

Now, if he says, oh, I need to change my song.

I need to stop being me.

And that used to be the CCM process, right?

Like I'm gonna do some poppy songs.

I'm gonna shift from the Jesus song to the boyfriend song.

That's a different issue.

But if McCrae raps about his car, I have no problem with that because his car belongs in

God's world.

If he rapped about mowing his lawn or anything else or barbecuing with his friends, I'm fantastic with

that.

It doesn't have to be the gospel explicitly stated in every song because God

didn't write the gospel in your grass and he still made the grass and the grass is still his.

So I mean, his dominion extends over everything and we can celebrate his artistry and his ownership of all of it

all the time.

I think, I missed, but Marcus was telling me Leah said something cool.

She's like, if I'm a performer, I don't just pick Christian toilets.

Right, yeah.

Right.

Right, and so that's kind of the idea.

Like, so McCrae can only sell the Christian toilet.

Right.

Hey, what's up?

What's up, Judah?

Say hi to the world.

So, yeah, Joy.

We got this, yeah, they're asking for it.

Well, real fast, someone made a comment here that on IMDb,

Notes from the Tilt -A -Whirl has an 8 .3 out of 10, whereas the Big Lebowski has only

an 8 .2 out of 10.

So you beat the big, you beat the minion.

The minion.

Speaking of Notes from the Tilt -A -Whirl, if you have my DVD copy, I want it back.

Yeah.

Also, those are all the same voters on IMDb too.

Yeah.

Exact same people.

I'm sorry.

Joy, do you want to say something?

I was just going to say, I really want to hear the mowing the lawn rap.

The mowing the lawn.

Does anyone have that?

She said if McCrae wants to write a rap.

About mowing the lawn, I want to hear that.

Maybe if I tell him, I'll write him one.

That would be an awesome collaboration.

I would just make the video for it.

It's also, it could be really great.

It'd be really shaky.

The world would think it's all about weed, but it's just about as long.

Yeah.

Just call it grass, and we're good.

Call me McCrae.

Well, this is kind of along the same lines.

When we, our Wednesday night vocab was doing a talk on Star Wars and Christian

theology, and we had, in the live comments, a certain gentleman

said you can't have fun with theology, which was a really

ridiculous statement.

And I was, my response was, how can we be salty if we have no flavor, right?

You can't be fun with theology?

Yes.

You can't have fun.

You're talking about anything theological has to be.

Oh, got it, yeah.

Very different.

You guys, though, you're Presbyterians.

Yeah, well, Presbyterian just means that we, like, we drink bourbon, and you drink light beer.

On the theological, like, theologically speaking.

Theologically speaking, it's a metaphor.

Anyways, thank Dave, it's been fun.

Anyways, I was hoping you guys could be serious about this.

Theology is not fun.

Like, you know, we.

Serious all the time.

Like, it's a serious matter.

Which brings, if you didn't get a chance to see it, if you're watching a live stream right now, on our channel right now is

Nate's talk from earlier today, and so it's all about that.

I mean, Nate, talk to us about enjoying God and his world

in light of somebody who says theology can't be fun.

Well, I think that the problem is a fundamentally reductionistic philosophy that's

trying to boil the flesh off of everything and just find the bones.

And then try to, like, disintegrate the bones and just find the essence of the bones, and, you know, the blueprint of the

bones.

And that's what they think of when they mean theology.

So theology is the skeletal structure, the architecture of truth.

So if we're pursuing the architecture of truth and God's truth in the world, then we're talking about theology, right?

Yeah.

It's like talking about, you know what, physics can't be fun.

It just can't be fun.

It flies airplanes.

You know, like, dragonflies are using it.

It's fantastic.

When you put the flesh on it the way God intended, when you actually, like, you have

incarnational theology, you have your architecture that's sound, and you figured out the architecture of God's truth in the world, you're

discussing the theology.

Now let it run.

Now let it fly.

Like, put flesh on it and mean it.

So what I was talking about today was meaning what you said.

Don't just stay on the blackboard where you say, yes, ex nihilo creation.

Yes, sovereignty.

Like, push that out until you see it moving around in the world so it has flesh on it.

So theology kept on the blackboard, just on the blackboard, and

never pushed out into the world.

I agree, that's not fun.

It's like, it isn't.

If it doesn't go off the blackboard, if it doesn't mean anything about what's happening out in the actual real world, it'd

be pointless.

It would just be riddles and, you know, sudoku, which I kind of enjoy.

So I like theology.

I love theology, but I love theology the way I love a rib cage,

the way I like, you know, quadriceps and what they can do.

So it's like, if you put it in action, it always, you have to take it out into the world and let it move.

I got a theology story for you.

Okay.

We have time, are we still just,.

Are we rolling?

We have time, yeah.

Don't, all right.

To me, this is a good example of why I think theology is fun, however

we're defining theology.

But I think what most people mean by theology is being really geeky into the Bible and trying to, like, learn all these

doctrines and, you know, dig into things.

And so, earlier as I was talking, I, you know, somewhere

around my junior or senior year in high school, stopped drinking, stopped partying, all that stuff.

And so, I didn't drink forever.

So when I became a Christian, I didn't drink.

And I was like, even better, I'm like, double holy.

I remember thinking, like, not only did I just become a Christian, I'm like, super

moral.

Yeah, I'm like, double anointed portion, like, I don't drink.

You know, like, this is fantastic.

And I didn't drink, and so I was the sober guy.

And years later, because I love theology, every year I would sort of pick something to kind of dive into.

And one year, I picked wine.

I wanted to just kind of, you know, Jesus does, like, you know, I'm wine, like, I'm wine.

Like, oh, maybe I'll try to dig into the Bible on wine, just kind of look into wine, you know.

I spent almost a whole year just going through the Bible, looking at wine, how it's used.

When you start digging into something, I mean, it gets super fascinating.

When did wine first appear?

When did fruit first appear?

It's back in creation.

You've got the first, I think it's end of day three.

I think that ties into day three, Jesus' resurrection.

And there's really cool things going on there.

What is wine?

Wine, you actually have to take grapes, and you have to kill them, you have to smash it, you have to kill it, you have to

bury it, you have to put it in somewhere dark, and then after time, it comes out, it's totally new, it's

glorified, you got this Jesus picture thing, going on, it's like, in theology, all of a sudden, it gets fun, it gets really cool, and you're going through this

stuff, and all of a sudden, you've got, you know, what was the Nazarite vow, and okay, well, you can't have

even grapes or wine.

All of a sudden, the Bible's making these distinctions between grape and wine, all of a sudden, I'm talking to my Baptist friends at that point, going like, people say, well, grapes,

you know, and wine or grapes do the same thing.

Well, I don't know, but the Nazarite vow actually makes it very clear, like, not to touch even grapes or wine.

Seems like they are different.

Theology gets you thinking about that stuff.

I'm digging into it, I'm going through it.

And then, something hits me, because at that time, I'm thinking about communion, because that's what

theology does, it does everything.

It hits, it rolls, it starts going, you start seeing this, it's this paradigm shifting, like, all this stuff begins to happen, all because of

theology, because theology's just boring, right?

But it starts to move, and all of a sudden, thinking about communion, well, Bible does say take, you know, maybe we

should be communing every, you know, on every Sunday, I'm not quite sure how anyone gets around that, especially people who are all into the Word.

I mean, we're talking Reformed people about the Word, Word, Word.

How do you dance around not taking communion every time you gather?

Well, we have some extra biblical concepts and ideas of why we're not gonna do that, and blah, blah, blah.

Okay, theology gets you thinking about that more and more, and you're going, and you're going.

And then, all of a sudden, it hits me that

wine, I take grape juice, it's

sweet, it's fun.

My kids love it.

When you take wine, whoo, it burns,

it's fire.

God is a consuming fire.

And then, oh, well, Darren's on the skinny branches right now, he's just reaching.

Then you go back and you look at fire all throughout the Bible.

That's what theology does.

You do another Bible study.

And I'm still not drinking yet, but all of a sudden, I'm reading, and I'm going like, man, like, I feel,

man, I'm sober, I don't drink, I'm a Christian, and I, but man, there's

wine everywhere.

God's a consuming fire, and then, I'm up in Idaho, which is why I'll probably move

there.

This is the part of the story I thought was gonna be told.

Yeah, and, well, no.

I said, see, that's what theology does.

You just start going.

You always end up in Idaho.

Yeah, end up in Idaho, and that's why I wore the shirt.

And I'm leaving, and a good friend, Aaron Wrench, and we're there, and they

kind of know my position, that they know I'm all for drinking, but I don't drink, and the Bible talks about it.

I'm leaving, about to get on the airplane, and Aaron Wrench looks over and goes, hey, man, I just, I know we have a good time here and stuff.

I know you don't drink and all, but you're all for it, and blah, blah, blah, and this and that.

But if you don't drink, he says, who's gonna teach your daughters to drink?

I was kind of going through, like, secured, I was like, teach my, all right, bro, later, and I got on the plane.

I was like, teach my daughters to drink?

Well, teach my, I'm not opposed to drinking.

So my, so they're gonna look at me.

I'm the Jesus guy in the family.

I'm dad, and they're gonna look at Jesus in the Bible, and he's like, Jesus drank wine, and you know, but you could say, well, there's no

verse that says Jesus never drank wine.

Well, there's no verse that says.

Jesus never drank water, so ease up.

That's what theology does.

You start getting into all that stuff, and then I was like, wow,

I need to start drinking.

I need to learn how to do it, be responsible, because I want to be a part of this theological picture God has

created and designed, and he's got this thing out there.

He said, I am wine.

I came home, my wife, I said, honey, I need to learn to start drinking, and she was like, oh, thank you, Lord.

I have a way better marriage now.

That's what theology does.

Theology makes things better.

Theology gets you drinking.

Theology gets you dancing.

Theology gets you just celebrating things, enjoying food.

That's what theology does, and for all you married, you know what I'm talking about.

I mean, it makes it better.

It makes, that's what theology does, and if it's not doing that, you're gay.

I love that.

Mark that, mark that.

Mark it.

Mark that, just mark that.

So, by the way, happy birthday to Len Armstrong.

Theology's gay if it's not doing that.

Happy birthday to Len Armstrong.

He actually says that if we announce his, if we announce his birthday on the

show live, he will convert to post -millennialism, so happy birthday to Len Armstrong, so,

yes.

And welcome.

Welcome to Optimism, Len.

I think Nate has something to say.

He'll say, Len, if that's what it takes, we don't want you.

Yeah.

You have to mean it, Len.

So.

I was such a sucker for that.

I was like, yeah, I'll let him.

Nate was very Presbyterian.

Hold on.

I would just like to say that.

How serious are you?

If he put his face down to the stream instead of what's in the water, I'll go home.

You make this world a better place.

That's what theology does.

Better jokes, better jokes if you're theologically informed.

The perspective is different here.

Even, there's a difference between Presbyterians and Baptists, but we, there's this real connection that we

all have, an understanding we have to where the world is going, right?

And it's different.

It's different than a lot of modern evangelicals in the West.

Even with our, even with our differences, this is important to talk about.

Even with our differences between Presbyterian and Baptist, right here, there's this real

essential understanding that we have.

We're like, I know, we know, we know.

When it comes to law, when it comes to justification by faith, when it comes to the future of the world.

So our perspective sounds different to a lot of people.

I mean, I got attacked this week.

I got messages, bombarded with messages.

People saying critical things about what we say on Apology Air Radio in terms of like, the

culture being transformed.

I mean, I said, I said, well, here's what I mean by that.

I mean like, Jesus, great commission.

Make disciples, teach them to obey.

I said, when people are converted to Jesus, I believe sanctification's a real thing.

That their lives change and they love God.

And so because they're changed, they love God now, the culture becomes different.

So you go from a, Henry Van Til said, culture is religion

externalized.

So if, I think that's a good definition.

Culture is religion externalized.

So if the religion of the people changes, then that means it's the culture of Christ now.

So we're talking about gospel transformation and change.

But people say, no, like you're thinking like, too big and long term, God doesn't care about

this mess.

But here you have Presbyterians and Baptists talking about, no, he does care about this mess a whole lot and he's doing something about it.

He did something about it at the cross and now that work is now getting legs on it around the world and we're

talking a lot about that.

So it does sound peculiar to someone who's tuning in.

After tuning into the last 50 years of pessimism and abandonment of culture,

they hear Presbyterians and Baptists talking about, no, let's get in it.

So I just want to talk about it.

You want to talk about women?

I want to talk about, we have a perspective that is long term and it's invested.

I'm going to tee this up because I just talked a lot.

I'm going to tee this up for Nate, whether you like it or not.

I would, yeah, okay, go.

I'm going to tee it up.

Do it.

One thing I love about being around Nate is I can ramble something like, and I just throw it to Nate and he'll

wordsmithies it up.

I think the reason why we're seeing that now, one is we're seeing that Calvinism was this great thing for the last 20

years that it convinced a lot of people in Christendom to be like, yeah, Jesus is Lord

over everything.

That's right.

And then what happened is eventually they started having kids.

And they were like, I remember, I mean, I was as nine point Calvinist as you could get.

And before I had kids, we actually bought a house.

I remember thinking like, there's a public school right there.

It was amazing.

We bought a house, a little greenbelt for the public school.

Then we had kids and I was like, we're going to send it, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Oh, wait, hold on.

Wait.

And I think what we're seeing right now is this generation right now is having kids.

We're raising kids and all of a sudden, Baptist, Presby, whatever else is left

out there.

We don't even know.

What else now?

Lutherans.

Look at this.

I was praising for a second.

Once you start realizing that you have kids and those kids need to be raised and how are

they going to be raised, in what environment, it changes

everything.

And where we're at in the culture right now, those decisions have never been hotter than

they've ever been in the last hundred years in this country.

Nate, finish it up, please.

Yeah.

Well, it's what your dad did and your dad saw this.

Yeah, so it's very, the decisive strategic

point for the culture of the wars, to use the old political phrase,

is children, is the next generation.

Because I'll tell you a secret.

People who really hate God a lot and are living for themselves completely are

not reproducing.

They're not having kids.

That's right, yeah.

They aren't.

Christians and believers, Muslims and Christians, basically, throw the Mormons in there, believers of

different stripes are the ones having children.

And those children either get consumed, taken into the government pipeline and indoctrinated in a certain

way and made, you know, weaponized, really, as instruments of pop culture and they

accelerate the decay, belong to the zeitgeist and everything else.

And evangelicals and Christians have continued to just be the breeding cows for the

decay.

That's it.

That's it.

And it's, I remember being 12 years old, standing at a homosexual

rally up against the wall.

It was the kind of thing that happens in the abduction stage.

And we had arrived and there's the dykes on bikes were there and the lesbian avengers and all these different

groups had showed up to be here hostile and attacking.

And that's a real group, the dykes on bikes.

That wasn't just a slur, that was a real group.

Yeah, and so they're there and it's standing room only.

They've pre -packed the room.

Everybody's chanting, angry.

And my dad gets there, we get there.

There is a lot of spitting going on at the entrance.

And then he just writes a note, please call the police, or please call 911.

Tucks it into his pocket to be ready and goes up on stage.

And tells me like, go hang out by the wall.

Like, just go over there.

I'm over on the wall, watching people scream and spit and chant.

One of the things among lots of obscenities that got said was somebody was screaming, your children are ours, Doug, your children are

ours.

And I'm standing here up against the wall.

They said the other thing too.

But that was the big repeatable one.

So that's the only thing I can repeat, but that was what they were saying.

But your children are ours.

And my dad's up on stage and he just starts laughing.

Like, there's a couple hundred angry screaming people flipping him off and chanting and stomping.

He's had to write a note to call the cops just to be ready in case they come for him.

I'm out in the audience with them.

And they're chanting that they have me, that they have my sisters.

And he's laughing, I think.

He's just up there laughing.

And he just, he finally, they die down and he just goes, yeah, not mine.

It's like, it's not, not at all.

And so he's been instrumental in the education movement since 1981.

Tens and tens of thousands of kids now are educated through Christian curriculums that he helped design and

pioneer in schools that he started the one in Moscow, Idaho.

There's now a couple hundred in imitation.

You know, schools in France and Indonesia in imitation, Northern Iraq.

You know, schools all over the US.

40 ,000 students in the actual association.

Tens of thousands more in homeschool curriculum based off of that.

Africa's got a couple hundred a day opening.

So it's just, I mean, it's essential that we raise kids to be

jovial, jolly, unintimidated warriors who celebrate the glory of their father

in a completely unintimidated and unafraid way.

So part of that is learning history.

When you take education away and you say, hey, so we're just gonna let Caesar tell all the stories.

Let's let Caesar tell the stories.

Guess what?

Stories aren't gonna be about Boniface or St. Patrick or Augustine.

Stories aren't gonna be about Ridley and Cranmer.

Stories aren't gonna be about Luther or Athanasius.

Like, those stories won't be told.

Now, if you start to be pessimistic about the history of the world, in order to not be a post

-millennialist, for all you non -post -millennialists, in order to not be a post -millennialist, you have to not know

anything about history.

Like, I really believe that.

You have to have not paid any attention at all to what has happened since 12 dudes were told to

go subdue the nation.

12 dudes.

Hey, just go take care of it.

That was awfully intimidating, especially when they started getting burned and stoned and lit on fire.

And then you have different points in time.

We've got one guy, we've got Martin Luther, like, all the decay, 500 years since Luther.

Yeah, that's not, we have no reason for optimism.

One dude with a hammer and a piece of paper at a church door, and look at the fruit that's born.

It's like one guy taking a stand and what God does with that spark and what he does to push it through.

So when you look at history, and you look at the rise and fall, you look at the rise of faithfulness and the fall and decay,

and you look at the next generation that comes up in the ruins, and you look at the next generation that catches fire, you never know when

Spurgeon's gonna show up and be Spurgeon.

You never know when Bunyan's gonna invent dialogue in the Christian novels of children's progress.

It's like, and here it is, and now an entire new art form is created by Christian evangelism.

And it just, it goes and it goes and it goes.

So when you look at the numbers in Korea and Africa and all around the world, you look at the conversion rates, and

basically what we have is people who get pessimistic because United States politics is kind of

in the outhouse.

Yeah, like, yeah, there's phases that are in the outhouse.

But there's been other times when there's been one guy with a rope belt, like in Germany, telling people to stop

human sacrifice.

And that guy with a rope belt saying, I'm gonna chop down your sacred oaks, and he does.

He goes into the sacred groves where they sacrifice the kids.

And he's like, this is done.

By the way, I don't care about private property rights.

These trees belong to Jesus.

No.

And in the name of Jesus, I'm chopping them down.

But our God's gonna kill you when you get to the trees.

Yeah, like, you're gonna die.

And Boniface chops them down.

Chops down all the sacred oaks.

Like, no more.

You're done.

Germany, like, fast forward, you got Martin Luther there.

You had to have massive Christianity, even in order to get to the point of decay.

Like, just to get to the point of decay, you had to have huge conversion, and then you slowly fall away, and then you

have fire and huge conversion, and then fire.

Read the stories God tells in history.

Like, all the stories from the early church fathers on, and then look at where we are right now, and

I'll tell you this.

This is the ultimate proof for post -mill optimism.

Would I rather live right now or in 1880?

Would I rather live in 1880 or 1710?

Like, would I rather live, just hopping back, like, and further and further back?

Now, there's years and decades and periods where you'd be like, I don't want anything to do with the Spanish Indivision.

No, thank you.

I'd rather just hop over that part.

But when you look at the advance of the gospel and what it does when it frees men, or like, when it makes men

brothers, when it erases racial animosities, when it breaks down the boundaries of nationalism, when you

look at what Christianity does over time, I don't see how you could possibly be pessimistic.

Like, the gospel is going out.

How can you be pessimistic?

Jesus is not going to lose.

It's not gonna happen.

Ooh, amen.

I was just gonna add, I recently, I've been reading through The Family Shepherds by Body Blockum, and he has a really

great quote that's perfect for this, and he talks about Adam and how Adam's job was to take dominion, and he says

he was to expand the boundaries of Eden and make everything like Eden,

which I love that idea, that picture, but then at the end of the quote, he says, basically, this cannot be done

without family discipleship.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So when I raise five kids, or I've got five, I want them to be more dangerous, like,

more equipped, more scary and unafraid than I am.

Like, I want them to be out there.

I want those going.

Which is a very scary concept, too.

Yeah.

So that's, but that's the goal, and then you want them to be unintimidated and fearless, which means training, which means

history classes, which means linguistic ability.

You can't just be like, we're just gonna teach characters and, you know, good attitudes.

What, great, that's fantastic, but logic, formal logic, like, I mean,

I remember getting in trouble in the college classroom, that just happened more than once, but

getting in trouble in the college classroom when a professor called on me and said, what do you think of this thing on the board?

I love philosophy, theology, and I said, well, you know, it's a basic, it's a real fundamental

object in philosophy, and he said, did you have logic last semester?

You know, my first semester of freshman year.

I was like, did you know?

I did not.

He's like, where'd you get the Latin name?

I was like, eighth grade.

You know, it's like, so, okay.

You know, we've, my dad and I just did a book called A Beastie Area of Adorable Fallacies, just

walking through, identifying all these different cultural, logical fallacies that people use all the time, identifying them.

We actually have these little cartoon animal monsters to go with each one, and a little picture.

Look it up, World Wide Web, please look it up.

Adorable fallacies.

Beastie Area of Adorable Fallacies, and we did it for eighth grade, junior high kids, because we want to inoculate and immunize

them against these particular types of folly.

We want them to be clear -eyed and scary and ready to go out.

So you can't just say, we have to raise our kids right, without weaponizing them, without giving them the equipment to do it,

without teaching them history, honestly, getting them an ability with words, an ability with language and communication,

critical thinking, formal logic.

Like, it's hard, raising the next generation.

But since 1981, it's been being done.

My father's been involved in it, and it's grown every single year.

It's been expanding, and the more rotten the public school system gets, the more people kind of wake up

and start to pull out and try to really equip their kids to deal with this world we're in.

Right on.

This has been awesome.

You guys blessed?

Yes. Good.

All right, guys, so we're gonna wrap up this program now.

First live episode of Apologia Radio.

Darren Doan, give him a round of applause, guys.

Thank you.

Nate Wilson, thank you guys for joining us.

Everyone on the live stream, we still are streaming tomorrow.

First session's at 9 a .m., am I right about that, or 9 .30?

9.

Okay, yeah, somewhere around 9 or 9 .30 a .m. I'm teaching first tomorrow.

I'm teaching on the importance and necessity of Sola Scriptura, but it's gonna be more of an epistemological

discussion, which means it's ultimately about this.

How do I know?

Because God says.

That's why.

And so that's kind of the goal tomorrow, to get that across.

Also, we have tomorrow a live broadcast.

Of the reformed podcast.

With Les and Tanner.

Hopefully, pray for Tanner's flight.

He's coming in tomorrow, so it's like he lands, and then we're gonna grab him and throw him on stage, kind of how it's gonna happen.

So that's what's up.

Thank you guys for joining us.

We're gonna get set here for our concert with Eshaun Burgundy, Ivy Connerly, and Four Known.

God bless you guys.

Thank you for joining us for Apologia Radio.