WWUTT 2520 Q&A Accurate Jesus Movies, Secular Music, The Shroud of Turin

The Christmas Season, the Incarnation, and the Friday Q&A Format

Are there any accurate Jesus movies out there? Should Christians be entertained by secular music? And what's some of the evidence that the Shroud of Turin is a fake? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

Merry Christmas from your friends at When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary to help you grow in your walk with Christ, that he may guide our footsteps. Tell your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome.

Psalm 65 begins, "'Praise is due to you, O God in Zion, and to you shall vows be performed. O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come. When iniquities prevail against me, you atone for our transgressions.

Blessed is the one you choose and bring near to dwell in your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple.". And of course, the way God brings us near is through his son who died on the cross for our sins.

He is atoned for our transgressions through Christ. And all who believe in him will not perish under the judgment of God that we all deserve, but we will have everlasting life.

Amen.

We thank you for listening to When We Understand the Text. This is the Friday edition when we take questions from the listeners, and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or voicemail us by going to wwutt .com and click on that voicemail tab.

It'll give you about 90 seconds to record your voicemail.

Yeah, so make sure you know what you wanna say.

That's right.

Or, you know, you can go on to two of them.

And that's happened.

Part two.

We've had a person record one voicemail and then come back and record another voicemail. So that works as well. Can't promise I'll use them both, but, you know. At least you can get your whole message in there.

That's right.

This first email comes from Tracy, Tracy in North Carolina.

Awesome.

And she is responding to something we talked about last week with regards to the Mary movie. Do you remember that? There was that Mary sort of short film that K-Love had put out. So we talked about that.

I made a comment about how it seems like in all these Mary movies, or in any sort of retelling of the nativity or the Christmas story or anything like that, Mary is always visited by Gabriel at night.

Right.

Never during the day.

Right.

Well, Tracy says she's got, she remembered one where Gabriel came during the day instead of at night.

That's impressive.

So she says, hi, Pastor Gabe and Becky. I started listening to your podcast many years after my husband, who I often hear writing or calling into your podcast.

Aw.

I'm curious as to who that is.

Yeah.

We have a few from North Carolina. So I don't automatically know who that is, but that's cool. Runs in the household. But back when you were still doing Song of Solomon on Thursdays. Oh, yeah. Back during the Song of Song series, which was one of my shorter series.

I think I only did that in 12 weeks or something like that.

Yeah, it was pretty short.

But yeah, so if you want kind of a good, what's a good series from when we understand the text that's shorter, I don't have to do something like Luke.

Yeah.

Which I'm just finishing up chapter 24. You have to go back months to get the beginning of that one. Song of Songs was a little shorter and it was one of my favorite series that we did. I loved doing the Song of Song series.

It was great.

So anyway, Tracy says I have greatly benefited from the Old Testament study and explanations and the Friday Q &A have been a nice source of conversation starters for my husband and me.

Aw.

This email is just a quick response to your statement on the Friday Q &A in regards to you not being aware of a single Mary slash Gabriel meet in movies that was not done at night. The only nativity based movie I really like or am comfortable having our children watch is the Nativity Story from 2006.

They obviously give extra background story that is not given in scripture, but mostly stay true to what might have been normal life at that time.

Oh, interesting.

But more than that, what they do give in regards to known scripture is biblically accurate or word for word.

Oh, wow.

Which I appreciate. I mean, that's all I'm asking for.

I know, right?

Why do you have to go beyond the words that they give you in scripture? And every single Gabriel interaction where they go past what Gabriel actually said, it's always terrible. Like it's not even close.

It's like you're not even rewording it in a way that people would understand.

Humans can't impersonate angels.

So, you know.

Well, yeah. I mean, some of them appear like men.

Sure.

But I mean, like for us to put the angels words together, I don't know. It just doesn't have that vibe.

Well, yeah, it's the same sort of criticism I've made too with any depictions of Jesus. Like how do we accurately depict the sinless son of God?

Right, we can't.

And when you read in Matthew chapter seven about how the people were awed by his words because he spoke with authority and not as one of their scribes. None of the Jesus depictions have ever done that for me.

Well, and also now it's in a different time where like the things that were normal then for like people to not know scripture very well or to have it memorized, but not understand it.

Or it becomes real wooden or something like that.

Yeah, like those types of things where today we have it like all sorts of studies about it and we have the full scripture and we have all of these things that are so much

And people can still be really wooden about it.

Well, true. But I mean, like the times are different and traditions are different and everything. So it doesn't have the same effect for us as it did for them as an awe. I'm sure he would still awe us, but it wouldn't be like him going up and preaching in the synagogues or whatever wouldn't really give us an awe of, oh, wow, there's somebody new teaching scripture.

But maybe what he said would be, I mean, not maybe, definitely what he said.

I mean, he was fully man, he was human.

Yes.

Definitely, but there is still something about the way that he spoke and the way that he delivered.

He was still fully God.

That grabbed the people, right, he's also God.

Yeah.

He's God incarnate, he's the God man. So you're hearing God who is the author of scripture actually speak and whatever he said, whatever he said was divine authority.

Yeah, but I'm saying like the way that the Bible is written, it wouldn't have the same effect for our audience watching it on a screen. You know what I mean?

Wouldn't have the same effect for us watching it.

Yeah, like if we watched it on a screen, the same way that they depict it in the Bible, it wouldn't have the same effect for us as it did for the audience that actually saw Jesus.

Well, sure, but yeah, so it's not that, it's not that depictions of Jesus are wrong because they changed the words. It's because a human being's ability to portray the sinless son of God just can't be done.

Right, yes.

It's impossible to grab all the nuance and everything else.

Right, on top of.

Yeah, right.

What's going on.

Right.

Yeah.

So even if it was, even if they were staying true to the words and they were actually speaking the words, you still wouldn't be able to portray it well. And I understand that there are some Jesus movies out there that have been just strictly the biblical narrative.

Like there's the gospel of Matthew.

Yeah.

Which is just the words in Matthew. The Jesus film, which is like the most watched movie in the history of mankind.

Oh, okay.

The Jesus film, which was made, I can't remember when that was made. 70s, 70s or 80s or somewhere in there.

Oh, okay, that one.

I watched it when I was a kid.

Yeah.

But.

I haven't seen it.

It's been translated. It's the movie that's been translated into more languages than any other film and believed to have been seen by more people than any other movie. I was watching like a behind the scenes thing on the Wizard of Oz not long ago.

Yeah.

And one of the things they said was, I think Guinness Book of World Records or something has that movie as the most seen movie on the planet. And I'm like, nope, there's one that beats it. It's the Jesus film beats it.

But anyway, as I recall, the Jesus film was true to scripture as well. So whatever they portrayed in the Jesus story always was lifted straight from scripture. It might've been cross gospel, drawing from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

Oh yeah, sure.

Not just the gospel of Matthew movie.

Right.

Which I think even that one's like two and a half hour, two and a half or three hours or so. So to go through the entire gospel of Matthew word for word is gonna take you that long.

That long, yeah, sure.

So you've got some films that try to capture Jesus word for word. But again, the person who is saying those words, who is acting out those words, it's not like a preacher preaching those words.

Right.

It's somebody who is acting out the role of Jesus is never going to have.

You just can't be sinless.

Exactly, right. You're never going to have an accurate portrayal of who Jesus actually was. So that's always gonna be a fool's errand, no matter what. Whatever your opinions are on it aside, that's just the way it's always gonna be with the role of Jesus.

And now Jesus in the chosen is through and through an ecumenical Jesus. They've tried to create a Jesus that is going to appeal to the most number of people who claim to be Christians, people who aren't, Mormons.

People pleasing.

Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox. It doesn't matter. Whatever you want. Exactly, right. Yeah, it's the reason why that Jesus, the Jonathan Rumi Jesus is so popular is because that's the way he's made to be popular and appeal to the most number of people.

He's not the Christ of the Bible. But anyway, yeah, we're beyond the letter. I'm only halfway done with this email. Don't you love when we just do commentary to your email. So yeah, they give extra background story.

There's word for word delivery in a lot of the lines in the film. I saw it. I remember seeing, what is this, coming up on 20 years ago now.

Oh yeah, almost.

This was when I was still in Christian radio. I didn't have when we understand the text, but I would go see Christian movies so that I could give reviews of them on the radio.

Right.

And Kyle, a friend of mine and I, we went to go see the nativity in Garden City, Kansas.

Yeah.

Keisha, trying to remember her name, the gal that played Mary, Keisha Castle-Hughes, the most famous

You forgot her last name?

Well, because it's Castle hyphen Hughes. It's the hyphenated last name. And it was Keisha Hughes, but there's another name in there.

Okay, fair. I'll give that to you.

Anyway, she was well-known for a movie called Whale Rider, which I never saw, but I think was nominated for an Academy Award. So it was a big deal when they got her in the film to play Mary and was young.

I think she was a teenager at the time.

Oh, wow.

Oscar Isaac played Joseph, which I did not remember that at all. So that would have been the earliest movie I had ever seen Oscar Isaac in. He was in the more recent Star Wars trilogy.

Oh, okay.

And he played, as a matter of fact, played the voice of Jesus in the animated film that came out earlier in the year. Man, I can't remember the name of it now. What was it? The animated one that came out from Angel Studios.

I took

Yeah, I'm trying to think.

Yeah, I can't remember the name of it either. It was that memorable. But anyway, Oscar Isaac played

I remember all of the ads for it, but I can't think of what it's even about.

I know, I know.

We're saying it now and there's people on the other end going, this is the name, it's this movie.

And I'm sure tonight it'll dawn on me, just after this program.

So he played, Oscar Isaac played Joseph in the nativity story. I wouldn't remember that. There's some other actors in there. I was looking at going, oh, hey, I forgot that person was in that movie. I remember liking it.

There are some things in there where, like for example, they have the wise men showing up with the shepherds on the night that Jesus was born.

Oh, yeah.

The creators of the film acknowledged that we know that didn't happen. We know that the wise men came two years later, but the point was they were trying to depict the nativity. So like your typical nativity scene.

So therefore they had the wise men coming the same time that the shepherds came. Which is understandable, okay. Still not accurate. I think you still could have done that well without having to do it exactly like that.

But anyway, that's me being

A little critical.

Right, biblically critical of a Bible movie. So she goes on. And as you might've guessed already, the meeting between Gabriel and Mary is in the daytime. I attached a clip of this found on YouTube. I hope that it opens for you.

If you've not watched it or have but forgotten, I'd be curious to know your take. Chris, my husband, oh, well, there you go. Her husband's name's right there, Chris. Watched it for the first time last year and agreed with my assessment on it.

Thank you so much for the time that you put into the podcast ministry and taking the time to respond to so many questions and comments. I appreciate the sound, biblically grounded explanations, honest sharing of your faith in actual life and just the honesty of your normal life together.

We pray for God to keep you both honestly seeking him and not faltering in your faith.

Oh, thank you.

In Christ, Tracy. We appreciate that very much, Tracy.

Definitely.

Yeah, we really, this is not a scripted show. I just talked about that with somebody earlier this week. You know, they were asking like, what sort of preparation goes into this? How much were you thinking about that statement before you said it?

I think that was what started the conversation. But I say, oh, what you hear, we are not any different in real life than we are on the air. No. This really is.

These are our conversations.

We talk just like this.

Occasionally, I have to repeat myself if like something flubs later, but I mean, that's about it, so.

Or I'm not paying attention. My mind's somewhere else.

Yeah.

Our conversations are usually just like this.

Yeah.

When we get time.

Right, when we're.

And not be interrupted.

This is, when we do this podcast, might be the least number of interruptions that we get whenever we have a conversation. And we'll still get interrupted.

Yes, we do.

A child may still try to come in here. We just edit that out.

And leave it for the end.

Yeah.

The outtake.

You'll hear the outtake at the very end of a child coming in saying, I wet my bed, or you know, something.

Something.

We still have children that young that that accident does still happen.

Okay. Occasionally, yes.

Oh, we are just way off on this now.

We are.

So, okay, here's the clip. It does come up. So, I'm gonna, let's see if I got it queued up, got the volume at the right level here. So, we're gonna watch Gabriel's appearance to Mary in the daytime.

All right.

You ready? Now, hopefully playing the music, I'm not gonna get like a copyright strike.

Hopefully not.

So, there's Joseph.

Okay.

Sees Mary walk by. And his friend.

Is giving him a hard time.

Giving him a hard time, that's right. You're watching Mary walk by. Okay, she's going down to this tree here, sitting down by the tree. Everybody else is walking off. So, here's the scene where Gabriel is gonna appear to her in the daytime.

We're talking like noon.

Yeah.

Right now, so based on the shadows around. Wind through the trees. She's looking around.

Bird in the sky.

And there's people.

There's a mysterious figure there between the trees.

And the people disappeared.

Is that what happened?

Yeah, they're just not there anymore.

Okay.

Do not be afraid, Mary. For you have found favor with God. Come. You will conceive in your womb. And give birth to a son. And you will call his name Jesus.

How can this be? Since I've been with no man.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you. And the power from the most high and the holy offspring should be called the Son of God.

Son of God.

Mary, even your cousin Elizabeth has conceived a son in her old age. For nothing said by God can be impossible.

That's a cool effect on his robe right there.

Let it be done to me. According to your word.

And the angel vanishes.

And she's still kneeling.

And she's still kneeling. She did kneel down before him right there.

Everything's returning to normal.

Yep.

Okay.

And that was good. The dialogue was exactly from scripture. See how easy that is to do, guys?

Come on.

The lines are already written for you.

That's what I was thinking. That's exactly what I was thinking.

They're right there. Well, no, that was a great scene. Thanks for that reminder, Tracy. I have not seen this movie in 20 years.

I have not seen it at all.

Oh, is that right? Might have to pull that one up then for our Christmas watch list.

That was before I was saved, so.

Okay.

Yeah, you know.

Not really first on my list of things to watch then.

I don't know.

I had a lot of friends when I was in college who were not Christians who went to go see The Passion of the Christ.

Yeah, I didn't want to. I just

It's not necessary.

Bloody, bloody mess.

Yeah.

And I'm like, am I gonna cry? And they're like, well, yeah. And I'm like, okay, I'm not going.

It's the crucifixion of Jesus. I don't recommend that movie. I'm not recommending The Nativity either, but it might just be a film that I pull back up again and watch. But that was good. Thank you, Tracy, for recommending that one.

There was something else I was gonna say about that with the angel visiting her and talking with her. I can't remember what it was.

I like that she was scared and then not full of herself later.

Oh, I know what it was I was gonna say. Yeah, right, because the Mary movies, she's

They argue.

Exactly. Right.

They just fought up.

Oh, whatever. She'll argue with the angel.

Or get angry or whatever.

Why did you leave without giving me more information? Well, she says at the end of that conversation, let it be done, as you have said.

Yes.

She doesn't argue with the angel.

Right.

So it's just ridiculous. But yeah, a lot of the more recent Mary movies, that's exactly what they've done. Or in the case of the Journey to Bethlehem film, they made it comedic. Gabriel knocking his head on the door when he was walking in.

Yeah, it was that dumb. And he was played by Lecrae.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Anyway, so what I was gonna mention was, when I watched this the first time, when Tracy sent this clip and I watched it, I didn't like Mary kneeling before Gabriel. Because of course you have in John, him falling down before the angel and the angel telling him

Yeah, don't worship.

To get up, don't do that with me.

Right.

However, when we were reading in Luke chapter 24 this week, the women fall down before the angels that appear at Jesus' tomb.

That's true.

And the angels don't tell them to get up. And so that's probably a, like out of fear, a reverent fear perhaps.

Sign of respect. Sign of respect.

Something like that, right. It does not demonstrate it in scripture as the women were worshiping the angel. John was trying to worship the angel.

Right.

And that's why the angel tells him to stop. But the women fall down before the angels and they don't tell them to get up, maybe stricken with fear. Cause it does say they were fearful at the appearance of these men in shimmering white.

Right.

So it could be the same sort of a thing here, just a reverent submission to this messenger of God that has come to give her this word.

Yeah.

So I guess that would be excusable in that sense. When I first watched it, I didn't like it. I was like, oh, why do they have her kneel? They were doing so well. And then she kneels down before the angel.

Well, I mean, when the emperor would give a message, they would always kneel.

Yeah, like people would come in before David and kneel.

Yeah.

And it's just a, right, a bow of respect or something like that.

Right.

When we read in the book of Esther of Mordecai refusing to kneel before Haman, often the way that's depicted, often the way that's explained is because Jews would not bow down to anybody. The Lord says you'll worship only the Lord your God.

And so Mordecai was not gonna bow before Haman because he's obeying the commandments. But that's not the reason why Mordecai wouldn't bow before Haman. There are other instances of scripture, in scripture of somebody coming before a king and bowing down.

So that's not the reason why Mordecai didn't bow. The reason he didn't bow is because Haman was a sworn enemy of the Jews.

Ah.

And so Mordecai was not going to give him the recognition.

Yeah, the respect.

So that was why. Yeah, it didn't have anything to do with, or at least the scripture doesn't tell us that that's what it has to do with.

Right.

In the context, it's that Haman is a descendant of the Amalekites. And therefore Mordecai was not going to show him that reverence, even though he had the title that he had from the king.

Yeah.

Mordecai wasn't going to show it to him. And that's what made Haman incensed and wanted to kill Mordecai and all the Jews because they won't bow down to me.

Makes sense.

Just out of jealousy, pride.

Yep.

All right, going on to this next comment. This comes from Scott up in the Pacific Northwest. And he's got a comment about a blog or the Saturday special that I did recently on the top praise and worship songs.

So I talked about Michael Tate, formerly of the Newsboys and the things that he got in trouble for earlier this year.

Oh, yeah.

And so Scott mentions that here in this voicemail. Scott gets cut off too, because he goes beyond the minute and a half, but sorry, Scott, here we go.

Hello there, Pastor Gabe. Hello, Becky. This is Scott, your brother in Christ in the great Northwest. I would like to bring up the Saturday special you did this week about Christian praise and worship music.

The first thing I want to bring up is Michael Tate. I would like to understand why he hasn't been arrested when he officially said that he drugged a woman and watched her get raped. He should be arrested for that.

I don't understand why he hasn't been arrested. I don't understand why he's not in jail right now. I know that God can forgive us for our darkest sins, and he does through the Lord Jesus Christ. But to live in darkened sins, oh, wow.

I still think Michael Tate should be arrested. About Chris Tallman and his music. You know, his music is great, but you're right. Playing with Joyce Meyers and playing with Steven Furtick, Bethel music, it's not about scripture anymore.

It's about how much money he can put in his pocket. When he stands before God, what he has to answer for. Anyway, that's my point.

Sorry, got you cut off there right at the end there, Scott. But yeah, appreciate your comments. So with regards to Michael Tate, he actually hasn't admitted to anything specific. He has said that many of the allegations are true.

That's as far as he's gone, but he's not specifically said of this thing that I'm being accused of, yes, I did that. So whatever is gonna happen with him with regards to the law, those things take time.

They do, an investigation.

Right, we only found out about this stuff this year. So with how long these things take to process, then yeah, he's in trouble. He's gonna be facing some lawsuits. Those things will definitely happen.

Does he deserve to be in jail?

Yes.

Does he deserve worse than that? Yes, he does. He has put out a letter in which he has confessed to drug abuse and some of the sexual immorality that he has done. We can pray that that confession is genuine and that he is getting the help that he needs.

And so that on the day he has to stand before God, he will have had his sins covered by the blood of Christ. We can certainly hope that would be the case. But over the course of his, what we would call his ministry, performing in DC Talk, the solo career, performing with the Newsboys, we have enough evidence to indicate that he had been living in immorality throughout all of those years.

All the decades that we've known the name Michael Tate, he has been in wickedness. And so very sad and tragic that anybody would be in that kind of position and use the fame that they would gain speaking or singing the name of Christ to feed the appetites of their flesh.

Be careful that you don't fall for the same temptations.

Amen.

You've heard the saying, there but by the grace of God go I. As the Apostle Paul says in Galatians 6 .1, brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. And in 1 Corinthians 10 .12, therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed, lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.

God is faithful and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability. But with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape that you may be able to endure it. So any one of us can stumble into grave sin.

And we need to be careful, keep a watchful eye on ourselves, keep our focus on Christ, that we would not be led astray by either the temptations of this world or the desires of our flesh. So I've shared before in the past how I've been part of this world.

I ate breakfast with the members of DC Talk, with Toby Mac, with Kevin Max, and with Michael Tate. I've met the man many times. I did an interview with him, a face-to-face interview right ahead of, excuse me, the release of the Supernatural album, which was the follow-up to Jesus Freak.