July 29, 2025 Show with Dr. Joseph C. Morecraft III on “The Dangers of Right-Wing Ecumenism in the Culture Wars”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 29th day of July 2025.

Before I introduce to you my distinguished guest for today and our topic, I just want to remind you all that this Friday, I am having a special tribute program to the late Dr. John MacArthur, and my guests will be Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You.

Also joining us will be Dr. Doug McMasters, pastor of New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island, who was the director of pastoral correspondence for John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You. And I just found out today that my old friend, Jim Capo, the former pastor of the Massapequa Church of God on Long Island, will be joining us as my co-host that day.

That's this Friday, August 1st. As we pay tribute to Dr. MacArthur, Jim was my co-host when I interviewed John MacArthur in 2007, and he was a frequent co-host with me when I was broadcasting the old Iron Sharpens Iron radio program out of WNYG, 1440 AM in Babylon, Long Island.

And I'm so thrilled that Jim is able to join me for the first time in a long time as my co-host this Friday. So please mark your calendars for Friday, August 1st, for our tribute in memory of the late John MacArthur.

But today I have a wonderful brother joining us, one of my favorite guests to interview. And I know from the responses I have received over the years from my audience that he has become a favorite guest of many who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron radio, and that is Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III, founding pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and author of a number of books, among them the eight-volume commentary set on the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity.

And today, Dr. Moorcraft will be addressing how deep should our alliances as Christians be with those who deny the true gospel and the dangers of right-wing ecumenism in the culture wars. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III.

I always enjoy being with you, Chris.

Amen. And it's always a joy having you. And tell our listeners something about Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

Heritage Presbyterian Church is just outside the northern limits of metropolitan Atlanta. It is in one of the fastest-growing counties in the United States, Forsyth County. County seat is Cumming. We have been there for, oh, five, six, seven years.

And we are a small congregation and a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Hanover Presbytery. Let me tell you something about Hanover Presbytery. There has been a Hanover Presbytery in the United States since before the United States.

Hanover Presbytery was one of the greatest presbyteries in the colonial period, starting churches and presbyteries all over the Old West, which was Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, all over the place. And then when the denomination of which it was a part became liberal, they dropped the name in the 1980s.

And in the 1990s, a group of conservative presbyterian preachers took the name up and started Hanover Presbytery again. We have about 20 churches from coast to coast, and our church heritage is committed to the Westminster Confession of Faith and larger and shorter catechisms as our doctoral statement.

We are committed to the mission of the church, which is the Great Commission. And we have missionaries that we support, one in Brazil, named Frank Dutto, who is translating my written stuff into Portuguese, the national language of Brazil.

And now he's doing something amazing. He's taking my audio sermons and recording them in audio by AI. So it's my voice preaching in Portuguese. Wow. And it's amazing what we can do. AI is dangerous, but it can also be used in the advance of the kingdom of God.

We also send mission groups south of the border to preach to cities among these migrants, because that is such a critical issue today. It amounts to an invasion of the United States. The Democrats and the Republicans don't have any real solution, so we know the solution is only to be found in the preaching of the gospel.

So we send teams to Mexico. We send teams to Cuba. About five men in each team, and every one of the men just happened to be Reformed Baptists, because they are extremely good preachers.

Amen.

Yeah. And our church has about 85 members. We have a great many young adults in their early 30s on down. And we have of every age, but these young adults are superior. And they believe in having babies.

So our church just continues to grow both by evangelism and by the written word and by your show and by these people having little babies. It's interesting how young people today who are Christians name their babies today.

You know, Presbyterians baptize infants of Christians. So I had two little six-month-old babies I baptized the other day, they're fathers or brothers. And one baby had a normal name, and the other name was Maximilian Finnegan Ford.

Sounds like a song.

I presume they're going to call him Mac. But anyway, so we praise the Lord that our people come from everywhere. We have people that drive all the way from Knoxville, Tennessee, which is three hours away.

And we have a morning service. We have lunch every Sunday because that's the only time some of those people ever see each other. We use the printed word, and we praise the Lord for the way it continues to grow.

Very cool. I'm very excited about that. Well, I want to let our listeners know about three major websites that you should write down to take advantage and benefit from Dr. Moorcraft and his preaching, teaching, and writing.

First of all, the website for Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia is heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. And also, the website to purchase his eight-volume commentary on the Westminster Larger Catechism, Authentic Christianity, is westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

And last but not least, for any of Dr. Moorcraft's writings, you can go to comprehensivechristianity .com, comprehensivechristianity .com. Well, if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Moorcraft, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us a first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Dr. Moorcraft, it seems obvious that Christians, when we are in a minority and being Reformed makes us even more of a minority, Christians have a tendency to panic sometimes and get overly excited when folks want to join us and be allies with us in the culture wars.

And very often you will see in the media Christians having close partnerships with Mormons like Glenn Beck, and you'll even see frequently on Fox News, one of the news outlets that many Christians go to as their exclusive source for news, a growing number of openly homosexual people who happen to be conservative fiscally and conservative on other issues.

They may even be opposed to some of the garbage that people that have their own sexual desires are producing for little children, and there are things within the LGBTQ community and the gay rights activist groups that they are even opposed to.

But nonetheless, these folks, many of them are openly homosexual, some of them even quote-unquote married to somebody of the same gender like David Rubin who has adopted children. So it's of great concern to me and I know to you.

And how deep can we have alliances with people like that? I know that every time we go into a voting booth, we're having some kind of an alliance with people who vote the same way we do to elect people in political office.

But how deep can we go?

That is, as you said in your introduction, one of the burning issues of the 21st century. And there are three or four different kinds of ecumenism, that is, working with people that are unbelievers or share heretical doctrines.

But before I explain what they are, there's a good kind of ecumenism, and we're doing it right now. Whenever you have a Reformed Presbyterian on your show and you're a Reformed Baptist, that is biblical ecumenism because we are based on the same truth.

But ecumenism is a form of sin that has plagued the church for thousands of years. And that sin is synthesis, that is, seeking to blend Christianity with some other religious or philosophical or moral way of thinking.

And it goes all the way back to Jacob. God would rather have Israel and the children of Israel be slain in Egypt than he would having them commit synthesis with the Canaanites. That's how serious God takes it.

And then it goes on through history. What we believe presupposes two things that causes us to be very critical of unbiblical forms of ecumenism, and that is we believe there is a divinely revealed, non-negotiable truth, and there are moral absolutes from God by which all men in their actions are to be judged.

We are never to compromise or negotiate either the truth nor the morality revealed by God in the Holy Scripture. The truth is what God has revealed to us in Christ and in the Bible. And the Bible, you know, Pilate asked Jesus when he was trying, and he said, what is truth?

And the answer that I give to that question is God's opinion of the thing. Whatever God's opinion of the thing is, that is the truth, no matter what anybody else thinks about it. There is no truth outside of the revelation of God's will contained in Holy Scripture.

One time I was talking to the former Speaker of the House of the United States, Congressman Gingrich, allegedly a conservative, and he said to me, he said, there is no source of truth outside the universe.

Well, now that is as atheistic as you can get. Wow. Because there's only one being outside the universe, and that is the living God.

Amen.

And what he said in so many words is that man is the source of truth, man's reason or man's experience, and therefore it can be compromised. It can be changed. It can be negotiated. It's not something that's absolute and infallible.

But that's not what Christians believe. And in order to practice an unbiblical form of ecumenism, which I'll explain after a while, in order to practice an unbiblical form of ecumenism like we're doing in our culture today, we have to give up on the divine revelation of truth and say the truth does not matter, that the Word of God, which is the written truth of God, does not matter, that Jesus Christ, who is the living truth of God, does not matter.

Those are common opinions of men. And then when it comes to ethics and standing for this or that and calling this right or wrong, there are no moral absolutes. There is no standard, perfect, infallible standard of morality, according to these people, by which we can criticize and judge every human being, every human institution, and all of man's actions.

Right is what God says is right in the Bible. Wrong is what God says is wrong in the Bible, no matter what anybody else in the world believes. And truth is what God says is true, not what man says is true.

So in order to practice an unbiblical form of humanism, even if you profess differently in your mouth, you have to contradict those two basic pillars upon which Christianity rests. You have to say truth is negotiable.

There are no moral absolutes. We can compromise on them pragmatically in order to get things done that we want done. Now, there are several kinds of ecumenism, that is, Christians working or blending in or cooperating with or coalescing with non-Christians or heretics or other religions.

There is one good guy, as I said, and that is we're brothers who share the same truth, the same moral standards that may be of different denominations can work together without compromising the truth.

That's thoroughly biblical. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But in the 20th century, I went to a liberal seminary, Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia. It wasn't in the PCA. And I went to this liberal seminary.

And one of the goals of theological liberals is to get all the denominations to work together, hopefully to join each other so that there's one great world council of churches or United States Council of Churches, but some way to get all the various denominations to get together, to work together, to believe the same thing, stand for the same thing.

That when the Bible talks about unity, that's what liberals think it means, organizational unity of churches that disagree in theology and ethics. That is not what unity means in the Bible. Unity is something only the Holy Spirit can produce.

It is, first and foremost, a spiritual thing. And it is based upon biblical revelation. So the first kind of non-biblical ecumenism that you've had in the last century particularly, when it largely began, was liberal ecumenism of churches trying every way they can to identify with each other, be one organizationally, be one in all of their various opinions.

And as a result, truth is always diluted and ethics are always situational. Now, when I went to seminary, I was taught situational ethics were the big thing. That is, that there's no absolute standard, but that it all depends upon the situation as to whether something is right or wrong.

And then throughout the 20th century, and more importantly, in the late 20th century and early 21st century, there's been this ecumenism of trying to narrow the gap between evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism.

You saw that in all kinds of ways. You saw that in the federal vision movement. You see it in many places today where evangelicals want to state their truth in such a way that a Roman Catholic would agree with them.

And they want to narrow the gap between Rome and Geneva. Well, I guarantee you, if the gap between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism narrows, it's not the Catholics that move.

That's right.

The Protestants are always going to have to compromise. The Catholics won't. They can't. And their council of triads, they believe their doctrines, as they worked out, are infallible. Unchangeable and infallible.

People think that when they had a second Vatican council and the church was liberalized in some things, it was just cosmetic. It was just on the surface. Rome has not changed in its basic doctrines. Popes have come and gone, but the basic doctrines and ethics of Roman Catholicism hasn't changed.

If Protestants and Roman Catholics are going to get together, worship together, work together, confess the faith together, in an unbiblical ecumenism, it's the Protestants that have got to sell out the historic Christian faith.

That's right.

And that is the third kind of ecumenism that we see today, more than ever. And that is a right-wing ecumenism. That is, things have gotten so dark in the United States, and evangelicals who do not have a victory-oriented view of the future, or who do not have a strong confidence in the sovereignty and omnipotence and faithful of God, have panicked.

And now if we're going to survive as Christians, they would say, we have got to give in to some of our—give up some of our most cherished traditional Orthodox doctrines in order to have more numbers, so we can have a bigger army to stand against the army of Satan that is perverting the United States.

And we see this all over the place now. Not just the liberals practicing ecumenism, or evangelicals, Roman Catholics. It's evangelicals out of fear and panic, wanting more numbers, thinking that the more numbers you have to fight with the enemy, the better it's going to be for the evangelicals.

Well, I can tell you one person that disagreed with that heart and soul, and that was Joshua. Joshua, all he needed was 300 people. I mean, excuse me, Gideon, was Gideon. And he had all kinds of men, but he never had the 300.

And that's all it took. So you see, we already have the numbers outnumbered. Christians do not think theologically. We have the only power in the universe, and that is the living God. And we have the sword of the Spirit.

We have the power of the Holy Spirit. We have the power of the Word of God. We have the Lordship of Christ. We've got the sovereignty of Almighty God. We've got history on our side. We've got providence on our side.

But we need some more numbers. So let's call in people that would disagree with us on most things, or would agree with us on some things, and let's include them in our army, because otherwise we are going to be defeated.

Well, if we get defeated, that's not going to be the reason, but I don't think we're going to be defeated. But anyway, so you go through history, and you see wherever the church has put its confidence in princes, and has sought to depend upon numbers, and made alliances with people like Egypt and other pagan nations, it has always lost.

Amen.

Like I said just a minute ago, God hates ecumenism or synthesis so much that he would rather his people be slaves in Egypt than compromising with the Canaanites in Palestine. Amen. Our people had learned that.

Now, there is such a thing, I think, as common grace. That is, that God restrains evil, even in the unregenerate, without that restraint having a sanctifying effect upon evil people. The reason that all unbelievers are not just men is because of the restraint of Almighty God, keeping them from being as evil as they could possibly be, and causing the world to be a hell for the church to live in.

So that, also, God can cause the unregenerate to produce some true things in books or things like that without sanctifying them. Even an unbeliever can have a moment of truth because of the sovereign providence of Almighty God.

He can cause an unbeliever to contradict himself in order to make a fool out of him, and yet use him in the advance of his purposes on this earth. So there are, I'll give you an example. 1986, I ran for the United States Congress.

I determined before I ran for Congress that I would not hold one political view, nor have one strategy in my campaign that I could not root and ground in the Word of God from beginning to end. And everybody knew that, of course.

That's why all the newspapers hated me and would always attack me morning, noon, and night. But there was an atheist woman who lived in that community. And I didn't know her for a while. I didn't know what she was doing.

She was raising money for me. She was giving out tract. And then I found out that this lady was an atheist, so I go to her. And I said, Miss so-and-so, I want to thank you for what you're doing, but let me ask you a question.

Why are you, an atheist, trying to get me, a Calvinistic Christian, to get elected to the United States Congress? She said, because the liberals are stealing me blind and I know you would preserve my will.

So, I mean, if somebody like that wants to vote for me, they know I'm not going to compromise. They know what I stand for, and therefore the problem is not mine, it's theirs. I'm not going to go seek the support of atheistic or Catholic organizations or dominant dominations or liberal denominations.

But if any of those people want to vote for me, that's their problem.

We have to get our first commercial break and pick up where you left off when we return. And once again, if anybody wants to join us with your own question, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen has lined up for me.

On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m., I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre-Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30 p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God?

I hope you can join Chris and me for both events. For more details on the free pastor's luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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Welcome back. To remind you, if you just tuned us in, we have as our guest today, Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III, and we are discussing the dangers of right-wing ecumenism during the culture wars. And if you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Always give us your first name, at least. City and state and country of residence. One thing that I wanted to see if I could get you to clarify, I very much enjoy watching on television Glenn Beck. I agree with many things that he says and very rarely disagree with him.

But I draw the line with Glenn Beck when he poses himself as a Christian and knowing that he is a Mormon. He is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And back in 2010, he had an event in Washington, D .C., right in front of the Lincoln Memorial.

I believe it was called Restoring Honor. And he made it a point to be very clear that that was not a political rally. It was a spiritual gathering. And he was making comments in his speech that appeared to go right over the head of the thousands of Christians that were there.

Getting a roarous applause. There were over 100 ,000 people that gathered there. But he was saying things such as they were standing on the land where Jesus Christ once walked. I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the manuscript of his speech in front of me.

But things like that that were clearly Mormon ideas. But I also saw, not long ago, a much more recent podcast where Glenn Beck had an old friend of mine on his program, Max Lucado, who is the pastor, or was at least the pastor, of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas.

And they were talking to each other as only Christians who are truly brothers in Christ should speak to one another. They were calling each other brethren or brother. And Glenn Beck asked Max Lucado to pray during their podcast.

So this is where I draw the line. And I would have had little problem with Glenn Beck having a political rally. And some might think, well, you're a Christian. You should be more aggressively in agreement for having a spiritual gathering.

Well, not with a Mormon. But am I making sense?

I agree with you entirely. Elijah said God can give even an unbeliever a moment of truth by his providence and can enlist a person, even an unbeliever, to accomplish his purposes without saving him and without having any sanctifying effect for him.

There's no way that Mormons can be Christians. They're anti-Christians. They don't believe the Trinity. They don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They don't believe that salvation is by grace through faith.

God does give Beck some information that we as Christians could use. But I would never try to enlist Beck in any movement that I was trying to establish as a fellow Christian. And I would not want to be identified with him as a Christian because I believe he's not.

And so it's these types of things. There is a group of young men who are—they are influenced by Doug Wilson. And they are also, I think, a little influenced by Rush Diddy, which is not bad. But they're extreme.

They're racist. They're very extreme on what they say about family and about various other things. And they will enlist their conferences people who believe terrible things if those people believe one thing.

Like, for instance, there's one young Anglican who has been very critical of the Anglican church. And I agree with all of his criticism. But what he believes is worse than Anglicanism. And as far as his doctrine is concerned, it's closer to Roman Catholicism.

But because he believes in Christian nationalism and Christianizing America, though he doesn't know what that means, these other young guys who are Christian nationalists, they have him speak at his conferences.

They consider him as a comrade-in-arm. And that confuses people. He is not a comrade-in-arm. He does not believe the things we believe. And his ultimate goals for America are not the same goals that we have or that God tells us to have in the Bible.

So there are a lot of these conferences now where they are, in order to draw crowds, let's put it that way, in order to draw crowds and to build up their celebrity and raise money, they get some speakers that are celebrities that are dead wrong in their theology.

And we see that more and more. And that is one of the worst things we could do is to let the world think that they're our brother, so to speak, and our comrade-in-arms. It confuses people. Well, hey, if these people agree with the people that we talk to that are from faith, they must be good, so let's go out and buy their books and get them to come to their conference.

And then what do you have? You have an evil influence. You have coming into your conferences and causing the truth to be prostituted. So this is happening more and more among people who claim to be chaotic, even, and claim to be wanting to Christianize America, but they're bringing in our enemies.

Now, as I say, you can learn from even non-Christians, but you don't want to enlist them on your side. That's like enlisting to fight in the Jewish army. You don't want to do it. If you can use unbelief, things that God has taught unbelievers, without compromising your faith, that's OK.

I'll give you another example. One time, which is really funny and amazing, one time I was invited to speak at a big dinner of hundreds of people in Chattanooga for the Chattanooga Methodic Lodge. Now, I believe Methodic Lodges are evil.

I think it's sinful for a Christian to be a member of a Methodic Lodge.

Yeah, John Otis wrote an excellent book on that.

Great book on that. And by the way, he's going to be eating lunch with me tomorrow at my house. Oh, wow. The Methodic God is no friend of ours. So, because I was running for Congress, they asked me if I would speak to these several hundred people.

I had to really pray and speak about it. And I said, well, I said to myself, well, I'm not going to waste this opportunity by talking about politics. I'm going to go to this Methodic Lodge, and I'm going to preach on the Lordship of Christ over all of life.

So, I go to this big dinner, hundreds of people from the Methodic Lodge, and I preach just as if I was preaching in my own church on the Lordship of Christ over all of life. And when I finished, these masons all stood up and cheered.

Now, they had no idea. They had no idea of the difference between us because most people in the South, most men join the Methodic Lodge so they can run with bankers and people of power, and most of them have no idea what they believe.

So, without compromising the faith, I preached on the Lordship of Christ, but I would never try to enlist a mason. In fact, in the denomination of which I am a part, an elder or a preacher cannot be a mason.

In fact, he cannot be a mason, be a member of any of our churches. So, there's things like that. I'll never forget what Bonson said one time, Greg Bonson. He's the guy that wrote the great book on the law of God and on the details of the law of God.

And he came to my church one time and preached, and we had all these young seminarians who almost worshipped the ground he walked on coming from everywhere. And they looked upon him as Mr. Theotery. So, he gets up in the pulpit and he says, Christian morality needs something else along with the law of God contained in Scripture.

Well, you could have heard a gasp go through the whole congregation. What in the world is Bonson saying? We need something more than the law of God? Bonson said, What you need is wisdom. You have to have wisdom from God to know how to interpret, to know how to apply it.

And was he ever right? So, we have a lot of knowledgeable young men and women out there, but we have a lot that do not have wisdom. They do not. They're not afraid to compromise with people of other religions and other philosophies and other ways of life.