When was Bunyan's Christian Saved?

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Barna, Pagan Christianity, and the Problem of Organic Church Thinking

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, my name is Mike Abendroth. We get questions in the form of emails quite often, sometimes they�re Facebook questions. I don�t really respond to the Facebook questions, although Spencer helps me out there, and he�s got the green light to respond if he�d like, and sometimes he emails me and would say things like, �I was going to say this, how�s that answer

So, you know, no co-style, always biblical, always provocative, always in that order. But if you email me, I�ll more regularly read that and answer it, or I might let one of the other guys respond.

Someone asked me when I was in Branson, Missouri, boy, that was an interesting place,. �What about pagan Christianity back in, oh, 2008-ish, Frank Viola, or Viola, and George Barna, B-A-R-N-A, see, in New England, you have to get rid of the R, so it�s a Barna, but then you�ve got an Adenauer there, at the end, because it�s an A, so it�s B-A-R-N-A-R, B-A-R-N-A-R, George Barna.

And what did I think about this book? And I said, �Well, I don�t really know that much about it, so I�ll research it and then talk about it. And so, I want to briefly talk about this before we get into our other subject today, a no-co radio.

Barna can�t be trusted with anything more than statistics, in terms of analyzing Christianity, having him be a good Bible teacher, trustworthy source of information, �Oh, he probably could be trusted to take your car.

I�m not finished with the sentence yet. I didn�t say take your car like steal it, but take your car to the insurance place and probably a fine man, outstanding man, upstanding man. But in terms of theologically, I don�t trust him.

In my opinion, I wouldn�t recommend him to be a teacher of the Bible to you. So he has lots of data, and even the data, it�s how you ask the question, so I have to be very careful with that as well. But this book, it says of itself, �An organic church is simply a church that is born out of spiritual life instead of constructed by human institutions and held together by religious programs.

Organic churches are characterized by spirit-led�remember, spirit-led is always going to be then through the word�open participatory meetings and non-hierarchical leadership. Yeah, like elders. This is in stark contrast to a clergy-led, institution-driven church.

So, I was reading a website that kind of summarized what was going on here in this book. In the book, basically, here�s what happens. Get rid of all pastors, any hierarchy, especially if somebody�s like a senior pastor, lead pastor, what do they call pastors these days?

They used to just be called pastor, then it was senior pastor, lead pastor, vision caster pastor. If there�s a senior pastor, you�ve got to get rid of that guy because that�s going to be a hurdle in functioning properly, and I guess sometimes it probably is.

If you have a sermon in a worship service, then what�s that going to do? That�s going to say, well, there�s a leader, and there are followers, there�s a pastor, and then there are laypeople, there�s a clergy, then there�s the rest.

There are distinctions that we don�t want. Now when you look at Ephesians chapter 4, when you look at 2 Timothy chapter 4, Timothy preached the word, I�m sure Viola and Barna would say, of course there needs to be preaching.

We can�t take 2 Timothy 4 out of the Bible, right, �in seas and out of seas, and reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction. What does he say earlier on in that verse? Preach the word.

So who�s going to preach? Just anybody that�s spirit-led, I guess, gets up and it�s kind of a brethren-y type of thing, whoever�s moved, or if you�re a brethren, though, it would be any man, any gifted man who�s moved by the Spirit.

It does say in their book, according to this reviewer, that routine is wrong, liturgy is bad, and so the thing is, even having a low form of liturgy, even having low church, even a non-liturgy is still a liturgy, right?

Of course it is. We�re breaking down all the barriers here in pagan Christianity. If you have routine in worship, that�s a bad thing. And speaking of which, it wouldn�t be a big stretch for them to say, don�t get dressed up either.

And that�s exactly what they do, don�t get dressed up either. What would you think with hierarchy bad, structure bad, leadership bad, male leadership worse, would somebody get up and say, please stand up, stand if you�re able, standing as we sing Immortal, Invisible, 1, 2, 3, 4.

Yeah, you can�t have leaders, no leaders in singing either. And if you have songs picked out ahead of time, then you�re quenching the Spirit, because everything has to be a free-flowing Quaker, Shaker, Baker.

We�ve got Quakers, we�ve got Shakers, and we�ve got Bakers, right? Mary Baker, Eddie Glover Patterson Frye. A lot of hyphens here. Let�s see, what else? Don�t pay the pastors any kind of salary. Of course you can�t have pastors, so you can�t have salaries.

Be like Jesus. That�s so overused, be like Jesus. In what particular regard, Frank and George? Well, he was a revolutionary, so we need to be a revolutionary as well and rebel against all this modern church stuff.

Okay. So, do you think I�d recommend the book? Is this a page-turner or a book-burner back in the old days? Hey, let�s just go back to the church. We need to be like the New Testament church. And so, my question there is, which church would that be?

Ephesus? See Romans Revelation Chapter 2. How about Pergamum? Should we be that church? Oh, you know what? Maybe we could be Sardis. That�d be a good church to be like. We need to be like the New Testament church, Sardis.

I don�t think so. As I was reading this reviewer online, he said, �Pagan Christianity will drive more evangelicals to the Roman Catholic Church. So, if you�re going for organic, you can�t find that in Protestantism.

Even though there�s a high liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church, you know what? They�re stable, they�re one, they�ve been around for a long time. Let�s go for that. I think this reviewer is right. And then this reviewer also says, �Pagan Christianity will give ammunition to those who already dislike the churches they have encountered.

I do not believe the book will launch a new organic church movement. I believe the book will give justification to those who have already removed themselves from their local bodies of Christ. And so, the book�s effect is similar to, what�s the 1988 guy�s name?

Who was the guy who died recently, Jesus is coming back, amended, amended, amended, amended, and he owned all those radio stations. See? That�s what happens. I think James White wrote a book about him.

James White. Didn�t he learn how to fly? I need James back on the show again. James, if you�re listening at double speed with your Strava app going up a mountain, you need to come back to No Compromise Radio.

Why? Well, I like you. You�re a super smart guy, and it helps with our ratings. I do read Justin Taylor�s blog, and he quotes Jim Oreck, who is the Boyce College Professor of Literature and Culture, Boyce, B-O-Y-C-E, and that is the undergraduate school of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

When Did Christian Get Saved in Pilgrim’s Progress?

And Justin is asking the question, when did Pilgrim, in Pilgrim�s Progress, get saved? When was he regenerated? And if you have not read that book, Pilgrim�s Progress, you ought to. I�ve read through it before, a couple times, and I�ve read through the first part probably 20 times, because I would start reading it to the kids, and then something would happen, and I�d start over again, something would happen, start over again, something would happen.

If you were ever in Bedford, England, you ought to go to the John Bunyan Museum, though, because it is wonderful. It�s got the chair there that he had when he was in prison, and he took the leg off the chair and made a flute out of it that�s there.

His anvil that he used as a tinker is there, J-B, it says, on the side of it, engraved. There�s one of the pulpits he preached from is there. I actually went to the church where he was baptized as a baby, and you can go to the river where he was baptized as an adult, as a believer.

Fascinating, this great preacher and great writer imprisoned John Bunyan, and when I was younger as a Christian, I�d always think of Paul Bunyan. I remember driving to Minnesota with my father and mother, and we would fish for northern pike or walleye, and we would go to the land of a thousand lakes, whatever it�s called, ten thousand lakes, Minnesota lakers, Minneapolis lakers, and we�d see, at some rest stop, this huge, it wasn�t paper mache, but whatever the thicker material is, huge Paul Bunyan and his ox named Babe, or his babe named Ox.

But we�re talking about John Bunyan here, the John Bunyan of whom John Owen thought he was a great preacher. And so, Oreck says this, when I ask this question to my students who have just finished reading the book, the question is, when does Pilgrim get saved?

I keep calling him Pilgrim, but his name is Christian, when does a Christian get saved in Pilgrim�s Progress? He is a Pilgrim, but his name is Christian. When does he get saved? One, when he entered through the wicked gate, not the wicked gate, but the wicked gate.

Or number two, when his burden rolled off his back at the cross. Oreck says most students come to the conclusion that Christ, I�m so tired, a Christian got saved at the cross. But this is, in fact, the wrong answer.

Christian got saved when he entered through the wicked gate. Students get the wrong answer because they misunderstand three critical elements of Bunyan�s allegory. The wicked gate, Christian�s burden, and the proper object of saving faith.

So let me just read to you what Oreck says, because I find it fascinating. When was Christian saved? A wicked gate is a small, narrow gate, the Bible identifies this narrow gate, or Jesus identifies himself as the narrow gate, Oreck says.

In Pilgrim�s Progress, when Christian asks Evangelist, whither must I fly, Evangelist directs Christian to the wicked gate, or to Christ, and not to the cross. The wicked gate represents Christ. Okay?

Did you buy that so far? Are you going, uh, not too sure? Alright, let�s keep going. Second error results because my students usually misunderstand what the burden on Christian�s back represents. When we meet him, Christian has an enormous burden on his back, and the Christian burden represents not sin per se, but it represents the shame and doubt that he feels because of his sin.

Christian�s sins get forgiven, and he was justified when he received Christ, which is represented by his entering the wicked gate, but Christian does not yet understand the basis of his forgiveness, so his conscience continues to bother or burden him.

Put in more technical terms, the burden represents psychological guilt, not forensic guilt. Therefore, what Christian loses at the cross is his shame and doubt caused by sin, because his sins had already been forgiven when he had entered the wicked gate.

Also, at the cross, Christian receives a scroll, which he later calls his assurance. Now, see, that one kind of puts me over. I�m skeptical, uh, but respectful of Oric, but there he makes a good case.

O-r-r-i-c-k. At the cross, Oric says, Christian receives a scroll, which he later calls assurance. When Christian entered the wicked gate, he received Christ. When Christian gazed at the cross, he understood substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness, and this gave him assurance that his sins were forgiven.

This understanding of Christian�s salvation in Pilgrim�s Progress parallels Bunyan�s own experience as he describes it in his spiritual biography, The Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. There he informs us that for many months after his conversion, he was tormented by deeply unsettling questions about his salvation, but all these questions were put to rest when he came to understand imputed righteousness.

See how that does it for me, because, of course, Bunyan is using his own thinking, his own conversion, his own self, his own life, his own experience, as he recollects and writes this excellent book. So, Christian was saved the moment he entered the wicked gate, and that was before he came to the cross.

Now, when he�s thinking about the wicked gate, if I was going to speak for Orick, then he�s thinking about Jesus and who he is and what he did, a sin-bearer. It�s not like he didn�t know that he was a sin-bearer before the cross, but the cross is helping him with his assurance.

Jesus, the sin-bearer, was the one that he looked to for salvation. Now let�s read the third part here with Orick, the proper object of saving faith. This paves the way for us to think about the third error my students sometimes make, confused about the proper object of saving faith.

�Are you saying that someone can be saved without the cross a concerned student asks. �No I answer. �No one can be saved apart from what Jesus accomplished on the cross. But the Bible proclaims that a person gets saved when he receives Christ, and the Bible does not say a person gets saved through believing that Christ died for him.

Christ himself is the proper object of faith, not some part of his work. Now, do we like that in No Compromise Radio? Do we like it? All right, let me just go on and finish reading before I answer. �This is a reflective moment for most, because in these days virtually everyone has been told that if he will believe that Jesus died for him, he will be saved.

But I will repeat, this is not found in the Bible. What�s not found in the Bible? That Jesus died for sinners? Hello? Okay, so I�m looking up Bible verse. �A person is not saved when he believes in the right doctrine, substitutionary atonement, but a person is saved when he believes in the right person, namely Christ.

So the object of saving faith is not a doctrine, but a person. Christ himself is the treasure chest of salvation. Receive him, you will receive all that is in him. The doctrine of substitutionary penal substitution is an indispensable, essential component of the gospel, but it is not the whole gospel.

How many Christians understood this crucial doctrine when they first received Christ? Nearly none. So how could they be saved? Because in spite of having underdeveloped or even mistaken ideas about the nature of atonement, all who receive Christ, the risen Savior, risen Lord as Savior and Lord, are saved.

All right, so now what do we do here on No Compromise Radio? Now, maybe Oreck says more. I�m not sure, but I wish he would have said more. This is all that Justin gives us here. Of course, I believe that the proper object of saving faith is Jesus.

But Paul understands when he�s preaching to the church at Corinth, �I�ve determined there is nothing among you except Jesus Christ, even him crucified. The crucified Jesus, you know, the crucifixion that the Jews can�t stand, that the Greeks can�t stand.

That�s the Jesus I proclaim to you. And so I need Oreck to flesh this out a little bit more and go further than what he does. I like the shock value. I like it that he writes the way he does. I like what he does to the students, because that�s all good.

But I think in his final explanation, he needs more. He needs more. I mean, I�m sure he�s going to say, �If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. I know he wants to go to those verses, but when he says about Jesus died for him, believe that Jesus died for him, he will be saved.

Isn�t that the Jesus that we�re proclaiming in 1 Corinthians 2? I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. Isn�t this the word of the cross that we�re to preach that�s folly to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved?

It�s the power of God. The word of the cross. There, Paul using language. Oh, economy of terms, theological shorthand. Of course, he�s talking about Jesus. He has said earlier that all who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus in 1 Corinthians 1, verse 2.

Of course, he�s talking about his Son and fellowship with his Son, Christ Jesus Christ, our Lord, chapter 1, verse 8. But here he says for the word of the cross. This word, this gospel word of good news, it�s foolish to people who are perishing.

And so, while Oreck does a good job trying to get people�s attention, I think he falls short in his final illustration. The object of saving faith is Jesus, but it�s the crucified one. And when you go to heaven and see in Revelation chapter 5 the Lamb standing as if slain, you cannot separate who Jesus is from his sin-bearing death.

It does say in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, Jesus, the Messiah, the text is literally the Messiah died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. This is what Paul delivered. This is what he received.

This is what is of first importance, that he died for our sins. He was buried and he was raised on the third day and then appeared to see if he ascended to the 12th. And so, I like it that he says, read Pilgrim�s Progress, I like it that he says, do you know what?

Of the wicked gate, that�s where he gets salvation and most likely because of Bunyan�s own life, that when he came to the cross, the psychological guilt left, forensic guilt was already left when he had saving faith and went through the wicked gate.

That part I really like. But the end, what do we need to say? We need to say the proper object of saving faith is the crucified Messiah. That�s the key. So, interesting, isn�t it? Very, very interesting.

Closing Thoughts, Reading Recommendations, and Show Wrap-Up

So, my name is Mike Ebendroth. This is No Compromise Radio. February 15th, 2015. There still are seats available to go with No Compromise Radio, Bethlehem Bible Church and Omaha Bible Church. You want to go to omahabiblechurch .org and pull up Pat Ebendroth�s sermons.

And, anyway, you will be blessed. Gospel preaching. Gospel centered. How do you preach through Luke and make it not be about Jesus? Well, you don�t have to ask that question when you listen to pat at omahabiblechurch .org.

So, today, two books. Pagan Christianity. You can get rid of that book. And Pilgrim�s Progress. You ought to read that book. I do struggle with Bunyan�s, Grace of Bounty and the Chief of Sinners, because it�s almost written like a David Brainerd diary.

And Edwards just chopped all the super-convicting stuff out, so when you read it, it causes more angst, I think, in people�s lives, because how do you measure up like these men, like David Brainerd, like John Bunyan?

How does anybody measure up? And so those are difficult. In the old days, I used to like to give those to people to say, �Oh, you�re struggling with assurance. Read this. But it almost has the opposite effect.

So who else can I recommend? Some people ask, �Well, who do you listen to Well, I always listen to S. Lewis Johnson. I listen to John MacArthur. I like to listen to the White Horse Inn. And I like to listen to New Order.

Well, I�m drinking Pete�s Coffee. Do you know, in the old days, they�d send Pete�s Coffee in the mail. I think in the newer days, they send New Order CDs in the mail. Digital downloads. Oh, man. It�s raining outside.

I am having the privilege tonight to go teach at Southern Seminary preaching class. So maybe I�ll ask them about John Bunyan, Paul Bunyan, and see if they can differentiate between the two. I�m trying to get Denny Burke on the show.

Buck Parsons coming up here soon. We just had Fred Butler. I try to get different people from different backgrounds to talk about some of these issues. I also want to address the N .T. Wright article in Christianity Today last month, but I don�t have time to do that today.

Again, Mike Avendroth, No Compromise Radio. You can write us if you�ve got a question. Maybe you�ve got to have a comment. Mike, talk about this. Mike, you haven�t addressed this. Mike, when are you going to talk about eschatology and your view of historical premillennialism with a catch?

What are you going to do that? That kind of stuff. Then I�ll be happy to try to listen, read, review, and follow up. You can be sure of that.

NoCompromiseRadio .com. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Avendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God�s Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

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