(Question / Answer) Tongues, Demons, Catholic Church — Leonard Ravenhill

During a session at the Christ for the Nations Institute. He is discussing various questions concerning tongues, demons, and church life and activity, as requested by the students.

Perilous Times and the Moral Collapse of Society

Let me just read a scripture to you from the second epistle of Timothy, the third chapter. You probably know it, but let's remind ourselves of it anyhow. This know also that in the last days, perilous times shall come.

Now this sounds like a headline from today's newspaper. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those of the good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures, plural, more than lovers of God.

Right now at this hot moment in history, the kids have got the whole, believe it or not, the whole of the United States at gunpoint. And on the news, if you saw it or heard it this morning, the kids blew the top off a famous library there at Harvard, and they have already declared that the government just about has admitted this is a state of emergency for the next two weeks.

Nobody knows where the next outbreak will be. Canada, for the first time in our history, has troops on the street in peacetime. And everywhere, this very word that we have read this morning is true. There's no way out.

Jean-Paul Sartre, the, I suppose you could call him a type of existentialist in France, says that we're in an impasse and there's no way out. Others, of course, say history is, everything is breaking up.

And I at least tried it. And right now at this hot moment in history, the kids have got the whole, believe it or not, the whole of the United States at gunpoint. And on the news, if you saw it or heard it this morning, the kids blew the top off a famous library there at Harvard.

And they have already declared that the government just about has admitted this is a state of emergency for the next two weeks. Nobody knows where the next outbreak will be. Canada, for the first time in our history, has troops on the street in peacetime.

And everywhere, this very word that we have read this morning is true. And there's no way out. Jean-Paul Sartre, the, I suppose you could call him a type of existentialist in France, says that we're in an impasse and there's no way out.

Others, of course, say history is, everything is breaking up. And I at least tried this morning to write a foreword to a book. And then it started by saying that my confidence in mass evangelism is totally shattered.

We've had 20 years of it from two angles. One, the conventional attitude of historic evangelism. And number two, the emphasis with healing and miracles and so forth. And not because of them, but in spite of them.

The nation is in a greater dilemma morally. We're in chaos and spiritually we're bankrupt. And the devil's gonna reap the greatest harvest in history, unless the church, first of all, has a reformation.

I know there are those who say she doesn't need it. She must have it before ever we'll have revival or what I prefer to call a spiritual awakening. And I'm tired of people fishing around in their own little pools.

You know, every, well, one of the old poets in England said that the devil would rather be the king in hell than a servant in heaven. And you know, when the tide's out, every little shrimp has its own pool.

When the tide comes in, they all forget about the little pool and they want to be caught up in the fullness of the tide. We have so many people building little kingdoms and a lot of them itching to get them.

A lot of them don't like the guys that have it. Do you know why? Because they want the job the other guy has. And there are very few that really seek the glory of God. And I believe that God's gonna reject our organized Christianity on every level.

Fulfill his word, pour out his spirit. And I kind of figure that there's some fellow driving a bus down a high road this morning who might be the new Saul of Tarsus. There's some fellow working at the plow who might hear the call today and leave the shafts of the plow and become a new prophet of God.

As I say, we've had 20 years of the other multimillion dollar crusades. We've had the big shots from the sports world to embroider the platform and we've just about exhausted every gimmick to get the crowd and we've failed.

You don't have to agree with that, but it's my conviction. And so God is going to find the answer, I'm sure of that. Jesus deserves something better than the church that bears his name right now. And he's gonna get it, he's gonna get a bride out of this adulterous, fooling evangelism of the day.

I don't know how he managed to do it, but somehow we've married Hollywood and holiness together. And a fellow can be a top line nightclub entertainer today and get a night off and go sing at some great conference and be hailed almost as a new Messiah.

And it's a terrible day. And so we've tried to slant some things that has made us quite a few enemies. I can read an audience like reading a book and I noticed quite a lot of people who've dropped off, they would have come if again, we'd been swinging on the chandeliers and doing miracles every day.

And I'm not against that, but I'm against it when we think this is the only answer. And when it pleases our flesh, even things in the spirit can please our flesh an awful lot. We're such emotional beings, we're so constructed psychically, psychologically and so forth.

But God is, I'm positive. And you know, I wouldn't care a hill of beans if this was the last meeting I ever addressed and the Lord gave me a little hut back in the trees and I could just write and pray for the next 10 years if the Lord lets me live.

Crowds don't interest me, people don't ask such. Just His will. And I don't for a minute think Mary went running up and down and said, I'm pregnant, I'm gonna bring the Messiah to birth. She said nothing about it.

Didn't even tell her husband that, well, the one that looked like her husband didn't even say a word to him. That must have been embarrassing. Not just because she was a woman, but you know, sometimes we talk about power and think we have to display it every moment we get a chance.

One thing you need, if you have power, you need power not to use power. And she had power to keep her mouth shut. We think power is just to speak in tongues or try to prophesy, do something, nothing of the kind.

Don't fool yourself. You know, every time you and I touch a meeting, it's either better or worse when we've done with it. Whether you try to prophesy, speak in tongues or pray. When you've touched that meeting, you've either lowered its temperature or increased it.

And you know, you can always tell there's a kind of, uh, comes in the meeting, isn't there? There are two kinds of stillness. One is killing and the other is creating. And you can tell when there's a stillness that's killing.

When the meeting's dying, dying, dying, you can tell when there's a stillness and God's brooding and you're almost feeling, what's going to come next? God's going to do something right here. The thing's going to explode like that.

And, uh, so again, I don't believe for a minute, Mary went running up and down and saying, well, of course I'm going to tell you, Mary, and I wouldn't tell anyone else, but actually this child I'm bearing is the Messiah.

He's the one that all the prophets spoke of. And, uh, you know, all the Old Testament, like a lot of roads coming together, all the Old Testament prophecies converge on a manger. And all the New Testament prophecies go out of that manger.

He is the center, he's the sum and substance, the light and the life of everything. And, uh, I'm quite sure there are a lot of wise, a lot of foolish people in the church. They kind of turn you off. And the people that turn you on are usually the people that say the least.

And I know now, I've mentioned to you about this one man that we know. I could give you a list of others. There's one man that hasn't been to bed for 25 years that has prayed from 10 at night till five or six in the morning.

And it wouldn't let you take his picture, wouldn't let you write an article on him. Uh, isn't concerned just one bit. He just lives for God. He, to me, is one of the people spiritually pregnant. Something's going to come to birth.

And he's with a group of people who for 40 years have prayed for revival. And they're more thrilled now. Just two years ago, God told them to step up their praying and believe him for one billion souls.

One billion souls in the next outbreak of revival. And they're not publishing little pamphlets and they're not trying to get money. In fact, they run a group there with three big faith homes and never ask for an offering and never take one in a meeting.

Not any meeting of any kind, never take an offering. And yet they run those three faith homes and last, no, year before last, gave almost $20 ,000 to missions on top without ever asking for a dime. Now that's kind of naked faith.

Revival, Spiritual Power, and the Coming Tribulation

That's faith without hints, faith without begging, just believing God. And I know that there's a, while you have an undercurrent of devilry in this country, no question about it in England too. They said this morning that some of these fellows that are in this hold up in Canada, these 23 fellows who were in jail were trained.

They know for a fact they were trained over in Jordan. And these others, it's part of an international conspiracy. Maybe you heard it, Canada has agreed to accept what I call Soviet China. She's throwing over the Christian colony there in Taiwan and is accepting now the Peking government, thinks this will make a readjustment.

Of all things, Italy's gonna do this. I didn't think she would, but I don't know all the answers to prophecy. But again, I think that communism and even Catholicism will get married because they both want world dominion.

But by the same token, while there's all this uneasiness and uncleanness and devil working deeply, remember there's the other stream. Now some folk are looking for a rapture to take them out of trouble.

I got news for you. I believe the church will go through the tribulation. Now that's not popular. If you wanna ease everybody and get your buck from them, you tell them, you know, let me tell you this.

I didn't intend to, but I think the Lord wants me to tell you now. There's a man called Ed Miller in South America. Our boy Paul works with him. He is the man who was the John the Baptist to prepare the way for the revival they had there 10 years ago when they got 200 ,000 people a night.

And after the meetings in a bullring, they had to send a truck round to pick up crutches and all the other things people had discarded during the meeting. And people, it sounds like Scotland. You know, they always say, they have a joke in Scotland that two Volkswagens collided and 46 people were injured because they packed them so tightly.

But they did say actually that in South America, people were packing 12 people into a cab and driving a thousand miles to get to those meetings. Now they, but Ed Miller told me himself, I talked with him for hours.

He's a very wonderful man. And he himself has matured very much since 10 years ago. See, they got 200 ,000 people a night. That's an awful lot for about 20 nights. A man went down there, just led of God.

He said, Tommy Hicks didn't know why he went. Nobody knew him. He wasn't Oral Roberts for a big shot, but they did have a phase of revival. They knew why he died because they had no mothers in Israel to nourish it.

They had no mothers to train the people, no fathers to take care of them. And the thing petered out, you see. This fellow, Miller came to my office and he said, I said, well, it's nice to see you. I haven't seen you for two or three years.

No, where have you been? He said, I've been in California. And he said, I met my cousin. I haven't seen him for years. And when I got there, this is what he did. I remember he put his right hand up. He said, he lives in a huge mansion.

And in front of it, sprayed there on the blacktop apron were a number of little English foreign sports cars in all colors. And I looked at this and he said, my cousin just said, ride out. He said, you know, if you want to join our organization, we'd be very happy to have you.

And you can have all this. But you're coming on the ground floor right now. And as I say, he didn't know anything about the spiritual background of Miller. He said, you know, we believe that shortly. Now here's a fellow talking again without any knowledge of the Bible.

We believe that shortly a man is going to come and head up all the nations of the world. He's going to rule them. And when he comes, we're going to be part of his official kingdom on earth. And he said, you know, it's a good thing you came today because if you come tomorrow, I'd be away.

Where are you going? He said, I'm going to Basel University in Switzerland to get another degree in the occult. He has a number now. In other words, he's going to study the spirit world. On my way, he said, I'm going to South America.

There's a woman lives in the hills there. She has a crystal, not a crystal like the so-called prophetess Dixon has, Jean Dixon, who is obviously not a Christian because if she was, she'd be warning of the coming of the Lord.

And she never mentions that at all. But it's not one of these plastic crystals. It's a piece of rock that was found in a mountain side. Somebody dug it out and it's almost the shape of a human head. And he said, I'm going to consult this woman because she is the most sought individual in the world on this level.

And this is what he said. He said, the people that seek her company most, strangely enough, are rabbis from the Jewish church and priests from the Roman Catholic church. And he told me this, that the Roman church had offered this woman a blank check for that crystal which she refused to take.

But you see, in other words, he's saying that we believe that an antichrist, didn't call him antichrist, the man is coming. Well, that's the only answer. You see, you get to a place where whether the Democrats or Republicans, they can't rule a nation.

Oh, England, laborists, socialists, or as we call them, Tories. And the only answer is a dictator who will rule them with a rod of iron. He'll clamp down on them. And that's what's going to come up. Before long, the superman.

Well, that was one. Then the other thing he said, I met another brother I hadn't met for some years. And he said, oh, hello, how are you? And he said, I'm fine. And where have you been? He said, well, I've been in the Southern Hemisphere there.

And I stopped off in Taiwan, Formosa, as you might want to call the area. And somebody said to me, you were a missionary in China so many years ago. And he said, yes, I was. Well, he said, down in this section of Taiwan, these are all Chinese, there are a group of people who, weren't you in such a province, say, I don't know, province is very much what one is, Hainan?

Weren't you in that province? Well, there's a group of people from that province down there. So he sought them out with eagerness. And when he went in, he greeted them in his eloquent Chinese, which he'd known for more than 30 years, and they ignored him.

And he greeted them again, and they just looked up and went on working. So he said, now, look, you've forgotten. Of course, I got a little fattened and bald, but I was your pastor for so long in China.

And they didn't take any notice. And he said, well, this isn't Oriental courtesy. Aren't you so-and-so, you know, and he gave the name. Yeah, yeah, isn't that so-and-so, yeah. Well, I don't understand.

I mean, I taught you in church, in your Bible school. One man busy ironing or something, and I looked up and just said two words that cut him to ribbons, false prophet. False prophet? Why, he said, I had a chart I used to teach you about all the cults and the modern cults in the world.

False prophet, why? And the man said a little angrily, yes, you taught us all right. You not only had a chart about the cult, you had a chart of the world. You used to say, look, there's Russia, and Russia is gonna come over here and invade, or this way, and invade Red China.

And do you know what they're gonna do when they come? They're gonna tear your Bibles and throw them to the birds. They're gonna burn your churches down, rape your women, take your daughter and put her in one truck, take your son and put him in another truck, tear up your homes.

Everything's gonna be lost that you built up for your life, your home, your family. It's all going to be destroyed. But just before that, just before this great tribulation. Now you will say it isn't a great tribulation because it isn't in America.

But if you saw your wife torn out of your arms and your daughter screaming going into a truck and your son trying to get free there, and you saw your Bible torn up and blown to the wind and your church burned, I think the Lord would excuse you if you thought it was a great tribulation.

What more could you have? But just before this comes, the Lord's gonna take your little darlings, you know, He loves you so much. He wouldn't let a hair of your head perish. Boy, not only let some people's hair of their head, He let, He didn't do a thing while tigers and lions tore them apart in the arena.

You got to balance scripture, or we become cockeyed. You said that we were gonna be taken away and China would be totally destroyed and all the ancient dynasty would perish and something new would come up and everything would be lost, but you would be just up there in heaven looking down and seeing the whole horrid mess.

You're a false prophet. Everything happened that you said except one. We didn't escape tribulation. Well, why should China have it and not us? We've had far more luxury and blessing and privilege than they ever dreamed of.

Why should the Christians in Russia this morning be in the mess that they're in? I happened to meet that fellow, John Noble, the first week he came from China, from Russia when he was released and that must be nearly, I guess, 15, 20 years ago.

The first week he came home, I talked with him and he told me about the conditions which are so horrifying there in those countries. What about the underground church in these other areas of the world?

It's much healthier than it is here in America or in England. And I say that to say this, that again, you've got to watch, it doesn't matter how zealous a man is, doesn't care what power he seems to have and how he foams at the mouth while he says it and how he shouts and how he thumps.

You've got to take a common sense view, read the word of God and not prepare for the best, but really prepare for the worst. Now, what does the scripture say? You see, we're always looking for a rapture that will take us out.

Do you happen to remember a scripture that says what? The angels came and what did they gather first? Oh, the tares. Hmm, that's another slam. See, we sing, no, no, it's not an easy road, but most of us are looking for the easiest anyhow.

And popular theology takes us down this road. We like to think we're going to escape, we like to think that we're God's little darlings, we like to think that we'll be up there in an armchair looking down while these things go on, but somebody is going to meet the enemy head on anyhow.

And God is looking for this group and if you want to become a candidate today, well, all I can say is you look out for something fierce and terrible, not necessarily physically, openly, but secretly in your own life.

Again, God may take you and shut you away and you'll have to leave the crowd and you'll have to do God's will. You'll have to do God's will for you and I'll have to do God's will for me, you see. And so what I've tried to do successfully or otherwise in the last three weeks is try and shed some of this thing that's only effervescent anyhow and bring us right down to get our feet on the book, on the rock and realize again that we're called not to get on an escalator or an elevator and press the button and say, take me to glory.

But another aspect of the Christian life is we're told to put on the whole armor of God and we're going to fight the good fight of faith. And we used to sing as children in England, more stern will grow the conflict as nears our King's return.

And the moral collapse in America in the last two years is frightening, it's terrifying, it's unbelievable. Nobody's safe, nobody knows where to go. Every airport is under severe guard this morning, all the public buildings.

Put a new watch over the United Nations. Checking everybody that goes in here and goes in there. Man alive, just a few kids have got a whole, we were boasting, Johnson used to boast we're the mightiest, strongest, richest nation.

But somehow we missed it, he's great society became a grave society. JFK and RFK and MLK, Martin Luther King, all Ks. All got destroyed. Instead of a great society, graves, graves, graves. You know, obviously there's no way out except God's way.

Somebody is going to get the illumination and again, God is going to find his men. He's always had a remnant and he still has them. They may be covered up, but they're going to come forth. And I'm not sure we'll like them all.

I say this and finish right here. I often think they might've had an argument in the upper room and said, you know, this isn't what Joel said. I mean, obviously you read Joel. Joel doesn't say a thing about tongues of fire, about a rushing mighty wind, about the gift of tongues.

Doesn't say anything about those things. I mean, these are spurious. Why do we want to accept them? Let's throw, they didn't do that. They were so hungry, they so needed God. They so wanted God. I believe the only reason the Holy Ghost came was they fulfilled Joel 1 .13 and 2 .13 before they expected Joel 3 .13.

In other words, they'd rent the hearts and not their garments. They'd wept between the altar and the doorpost. They cried to God in their bankruptcy. They were at the place now where they had nothing left.

10 days of stripping, stripping, stripping. 10 days of unclothing before they were clothed. 10 days of emptying before they were filled. 10 days of acknowledging their bankruptcy before the anointing came.

We poured millions and millions and millions out in evangelism and we're worse off than ever. Not because of it, but in spite of it. So I look for God to do a new thing and he'll do it. Not because I so, but because he says so.

He said we have the former reign and the latter reign. We have the former at Pentecost and we're gonna have the latter reign. Nobody's gonna get in on it. Nobody's gonna build a movement on it. Now I don't care about fellows having visions, that's all right, but you can't make a doctrine out of a man's vision.

So often a fellow has a vision, then he goes off at a tangent, wants to build his little kingdom. I know God gave it to me. I won't doubt he gave it to him, but I'll seriously doubt he gave it to me. God's gonna give me a vision, he'll give me a vision, not through him.

He's not gonna get my money or anything. Usually they want your money once they get a vision. Well let him go to the same God that gave him the vision and get all he needs. That's what he should do. Amazing how many men get a vision, but they want your money to fulfill their vision.

Isn't that wonderful? I mean it's no good holding up a bank. There's a much easier way than that. Just become an evangelist. But oh, wait till the great day when we have to answer, which we're gonna talk about tomorrow night.

So I didn't intend to say all that, but I think the Lord wanted me to share that with you. Let's be careful, let's be sure we have our feet on the ground. Somebody said, I don't care how high you jump, as long as when you come down, you walk straight.

So let's see that we do that. All right, if you want to ask questions, I kept my genius behind me here so he can share it if I get stuck. Questions relative to what we've been talking about. Let me tell you right off, I don't know what the middle toe on the left foot of Daniel's image is.

I don't know, so don't ask me that question. I don't know the Antichrist, I haven't met him. I don't know his wife or anybody. Right, thank you. Yeah, quite a few people asked about that, particularly as I say, using this, not by any gripe.

Distinguishing Human, Demonic, and Holy Spirit Tongues

But for instance, there are three types of tongues. There are tongues of men, or maybe more tongues of men and of angels. Or there are tongues, natural languages of men. Then there are tongues which are inspired by demon power.

And there are tongues which are given by the Holy Ghost. There is a genuine gift of tongues. I'll be honest with you, I don't believe many people have it. And the third is something psychic or human. Now I know a man who went into a meeting where there is no more the gift of tongues than this desk has.

And one of England's foremost Pentecostal preachers were there. This fellow was in, he said, what's this going on? Our fellow said, oh, this is the gift of tongues, you see. He has the interpretation.

And what they're saying is not earthly, it's heavenly. So the man said, oh. And when there was a pause, he jumped up and he gabbled something like, yakabura, sararia, karama, nura, barabara, barabara.

He went on like that and waited. And this, the most outstanding Pentecostal preacher, or one of the three outstanding Pentecostal preachers in England interpreted it. Now another friend we have, my dear Martha and I, one of the most brilliant Bible scholars I know.

He has about 2 ,000 books in Greek and Hebrew. He's a spirit-filled man. He does research. And he was in a meeting on the West Coast. They had a free night. Somebody said, come to a meeting. He went, hadn't been in the meeting long when suddenly a woman, now I don't know why, but nearly always it's the women that yell out.

Even though the scripture says they should be silent in the church too. And she yelled out and the pastor interpreted. At the end of the meeting, the same thing happened and the pastor interpreted. Going out, the pastor said, oh, hello, nice to see you.

I noticed you're a stranger here. Yeah, enjoy the meeting. And he said, no. Well, surely you usually say yes out of courtesy. I mean, if you didn't enjoy the meeting, you enjoyed Miss Smith that gargled to music or something.

And there's something that you enjoyed in the meeting, but he said, no. Well, what was wrong? At the beginning, that woman, oh yes, that you mean the lady that spoke in tongues. Oh, she spoke in tongues.

What kind of tongue? Oh, not an earthly language. It's a heavenly language. And what did you do? Oh, I gave the interpretation. What about the end of the meeting? Oh, well, she did the same thing, spoke in tongues.

And it was the same tongue you noticed. He said, I noticed that. It's not a language of earth, a language of heaven. And I gave the interpretation. Not all right? He said, no. Well, what's your problem?

Well, he said, I don't know many languages. I know English, I know Hebrew, I know Greek, and I happen to know Latin. And the woman gave a flawless message in Latin. Now you say it wasn't a language of earth, it was of heaven, and you're wrong there, number one.

And you're supposed to be the leader of the church. Number two, she was urging you to worship the Virgin Mary and give her honor. Because she's seated at the right hand of the Father and lives to make intercession.

And what about the end of the meeting? She did the same thing. Now, you see, again, it doesn't matter what you have, Satan's gonna try and abuse it. And therefore, you've got to have, what are the things we need most?

Now, I don't know all the answers. I say, I don't understand why you can have a congregation of people with maybe 500 people in the congregation all claiming the gift of tongues, and only one person who has the gift of interpretation.

So that, as in an occasion, one church I was in, nobody interpreted. And I said, well, all the interpreters are away. Now, would the Holy Ghost waste his own energy? Why don't we go on and seek the other gifts of the Spirit?

17, if you list them all. You see, that's why more than once I've said, and I've addressed many conferences of all kinds of Pentecostal ministers, many ministers' meetings, and challenged them that not one of them has a Pentecostal church.

And they frown and say, oh, Ravenel's coming up sour again. And I say, no, here it is. Look, they went to church every day. They broke bread every day. They had a prayer meeting every day, and so was added to the church.

Now, that's Pentecost. Got a church like that, raise your hand. Nobody raised their hand. They had all the gifts of the Spirit operating. You got them in your church? Now, there's only one church, really, in Dallas.

And that's made up of the redeemed body of Christ. And I believe that in that one church, really, all the gifts must be operating. And it should be that there's somebody known here at Christ for the Nations who maybe has the gift of faith.

And people will cross the city to come to this man and say, look, you have the gift of faith, and here's a problem, and I want you to believe God with me about it. And then somebody else over in another church, as we call the churches, which, of course, are only denominations, has the gift of wisdom.

Another man has the gift of knowledge. There's only one church in this city or any city. And in that body, these gifts should be obvious. They should be known. Nobody's gonna strut. In fact, the more you have, the more you want to hide yourself.

God hates pride. We don't think of this. We like to strut and show off. And immediately, we cancel the whole, we sabotage our own praying often. So, to answer the question, brother, to me, as a brother told me not long ago, we met him in California maybe three months ago.

He'd just come from Indonesia, and some people were having a celebration, the, as we'd say, the heathen out there. And one of them, dancing around a fire, suddenly came out with a torrent of pure English, a great oration.

Now, you may say that's demon power, or you can say it's psychic. Certainly wasn't the Holy Spirit, because he conveyed no message. And if you don't convey a message, as far as I'm concerned, yours is psychic.

You turned it on when you want it. Now, I know that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. But that doesn't mean you play with it like a toy. You see. Boy, you talk about sounding brass.

You've been in meetings of all kind, in churches and banquets, where somebody rattled off, and you said to yourself, if ever I heard sounding brass and tinkling cymbals, that's it. You see, they want to show off in front of the crowd, show my gift, show something I have.

Always pushing self. Isn't it? And so I say, one of the greatest needs to me in the church of God is today, is that we have, not what people say, you know, I've got the gift of discernment. I know lots of people on the side that have the gift of discernment.

There isn't a gift of discernment. At least not in the Bible. There's a gift of discerning of spirits, but that's very different from a gift of discernment. My wife has a sister who again is quite psychic.

She knows what's going to happen tomorrow. She isn't saved, but man, she comes up with some fantastic stuff. And those things happening in other countries with relatives. I preached in a tent one afternoon in England, and a fellow came in, his hair was way down here, and his shirt was open, and he just sat there and listened.

And when I finished, he said, hello, I said, hello. He said, who was that man on the platform with you this afternoon? Oh, I said, that's our leader. No, no, no, no. When the other gentleman left the platform and listened to you preach, a man stood at the side of you.

He was tall, had black hair parted down the center, walrus mustache, marvelous teeth, a deep collar with his tie tucked underneath, and a black coat and a waistcoat, and a gold Albert, as we say, a gold chain strung across his tummy there.

And I hadn't met this man or said a word to him before. And he said, look, when you were a boy, you came in at your front door, across the room was an old-fashioned scroll sofa, and this man's picture was hung above it.

And his name is William, William, William, William. He said, William, William, William. William Jackson. I said, no. Well, it's William, and it has sun at the end. I said, that's right. Oh, William Johnson.

I said, right. Who was it? I said, my grandfather. He said, well, he stood at the side of you for the whole afternoon when you preach. As soon as you gave out your text, he stood there, and as soon as you finished, you went.

Now, he told me where I lived. He said, that was up in Leeds, 51 miles away from where we were. I had never seen my grandpa in his life or mine, but I knew the picture. And now he described the picture, he described the house, he gave me his name and everything, and he'd never seen me before, and I don't want to see him anymore anyhow.