Shadi Kaloul: What its Like Being a Christian in Israel

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. And with us for the first time is

Shadi Kalul. He is the founder and the president of the Israeli Christian Aramaic Association.

He has a lot to say about the current political situation for Christians in Israel. I don't necessarily know what to make of a lot of the claims that are out there currently, especially from people like Tucker Carlson, who has interviewed

Christians who live in Muslim -controlled areas surrounding Israel proper, but has not actually interviewed someone yet who is a

Christian themselves, who is a citizen of Israel. And in the case of Shadi Kalul, he actually offered to have this conversation with Tucker, and Tucker did not take him up on the offer.

I figured we would take him up on the offer and hear what he has to say. His family traces back to the early church period.

They have been in the land under Muslim domination. Now they live under the regime of the nation state of Israel.

And he has a lot of things to say about his perspectives. And I think it's a useful thing to hear, even though it's not a popular thing to hear in our current political situation, especially for Christians in the

United States who are trying to figure out what it's like for Christians, not just in Israel, but across the

Middle East. So that's the intention behind this podcast. I hope it is helpful for you. And I hope if you resonate with what

Shadi Kalul is saying, you will follow him on social media and look up his organization, what he's trying to do, because it is very fascinating building a city that is

Christian specifically with the blessing of the Israeli government. I have never heard of anything like that, and it is currently in motion.

So let's hear what he has to say for the first time, Shadi Kalul, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you,

John, for hosting me. And hopefully we will expose the truth because we were ordered to speak the truth and the truth will set us free.

Amen. I want to ask you a little bit about your story. You're a Christian in Israel and you trace back to the early church.

I know you lived in the United States for a little bit. When did this become real for you in understanding your identity as a

Christian? Well, I grew up here in Galilee region.

We always were called Maronites and we didn't know what is Maronite about, what we're talking about, who we are.

We just grew up knowing that Maronite and Jews were allies, were friends, and the

Islamic jihadists were trying to annihilate the Maronites in Lebanon, our people, while we are here in Israel watching that.

The Israeli IDF forces were the only ones that trying to save the

Maronites in the 80s, when Arafat and the PLO, the

Palestinian, attacked them together with Arab and Islamic jihadists.

And then that's what I grew up. And when I returned, like I become 18,

I joined the IDF. I was a paratrooper officer and graduated and ended up in United States of America to continue my studies to, and I studied international business and finance in Las Vegas, Nevada.

So during my studies in my last semester, after like already having my

American dream build in Las Vegas with friends, with American friends as partners, and I was thinking to stay there and have, you know, all what

American dream allows you to be prosperous businessman and corporate manager and so on and so on.

Last semester, we had to choose upper English class and it was either

Bible as English literature or Shakespeare as English literature.

And as a person who come from the land of the Bible, from the Holy Land, from Israel, this is a

Holy Land that we all know about and the Bible speaks about. So I said, you know, it's easy.

I grew up in a Protestant school in here in Haifa in the North of Israel.

And this would be easy class for me for credit purposes. And I took it. And once I, you know, we were reading the verses, different verses from the

Bible. One of the students, she read a verse,

Talitha Kumi. And when she read that from the Bible, the professor was, his name was

John. And he told her, stop, stop, stop. This is not

English. We are dealing with English language class here. And this sentence that you read now, it's still in Aramaic.

It's not, it is not translated to English in the Bible. And this

Aramaic language was spoken by the Jews and by Jesus as Jewish person, as walking here in the ground, talking to people in this language.

That's the language he spoke back then and it died. I said, excuse me, instructor, we didn't die.

He said, excuse me, who you are? Said, I am Israeli Christian. I belong to the

Syriac Aramaic Maronite Church of Antioch. It is a very ancient church from the early

Christianity that is in this region. And we still speak the language and we pray in this language as Jesus spoke it.

And as we, and our forefathers still speaking it. Said, sorry, we don't know about you.

Prepare presentation next week. So I ended up deepening exactly, wow.

I said, my God, why I should just speak out? I should just shut up.

I don't have time for another presentation and preparation and deepening my knowledge about history now and prepare

PowerPoint presentation. And that's where I digged into history of our people.

And I discovered so many things that I brought them to the

American students. And I told them the history of our people, what they suffered here from since the

Islamic Arabic conquest for 1 ,400 years of oppression, of persecution, of genocide, ethnic cleansing, dhimmis, of being dhimmi as a second and third and 10th class citizen under Islamic regimes during history and Islamic empire.

And at the end, I taught them the Lord prayer in Jesus' Aramaic language. And I discovered how much

Americans were thirsty to know when I exposed this knowledge to them.

I saw tears in their eyes. I saw them, they want to know about us more and asking me how we can help your people, how we can help your language not dying, how we can help you stay strong in this region.

I said, wait, wait, wait, wait. I am trying to build my American dream, not being build my

Aramaic dream. So I ended up after these questions, knowing that Americans have passion and to this issue, and they are thirsty to know more and they want to know more.

And I should maybe not build my American dream, but build my

Aramaic dream and return back to Israel. And since then I returned back in 2006 after finishing my degree.

And I launched the Israeli Christian Aramaic NGO with two goals.

One is reviving and preserving our Aramaic language and the

Christian faith and our identity and national identity as Aramaic people and help my people integrate better within the state of Israel.

And since then we succeeded of achieving Aramaic recognition in Israel for the first time in 2014 and opening the first Christian Jewish educational leadership school in the sea of the

Galilee where Jesus chose his disciples in this region. And it's all connected together with Israel here as a people who can operate freely and act freely.

And it's very beautiful coexistence project that working for integrating our people in a positive

Christian engagement model in the state of Israel. And that's life of Christians in Israel.

That's how we live here. What website can people go to if they want to know more or support what you're doing?

This is, the website is www .aramaic -center .com

and they can learn about us. We have another website. I can send it to you by email afterward.

We also like just lately launched another website for a specific project as well.

And so they can do the both websites and learn about our work. And we have our social media as well.

Our social media and my personal social media and Twitter which is Shadi Khalul or Shadi Khalul K -H -A -L -O -U -L and Shadi is

S -H -A -D -I. These are the websites also under the

Israeli Christian Aramaic, sorry, the Facebook and Instagram under Israeli Christian Aramaic Association.

All exist in social media. We do our activities, we post it there and you are welcome to join.

And also if you feel like you want to have a giving for our projects, you are welcome to help and assist and support and be part of our programs for better future for all of us here in this region because this is the best project to be a bridge between people as we are actually ordered by our

Lord Savior in the Bible. We are a bridge between the nations the

Bible speak and not hating for other people. That's what

Tucker Carlson is doing is spreading hate and putting division between Christian and Jews in the land and instead of exposing

Christian persecution in Arab country and Islamic country and help those

Christians to expose their suffer to the world. So maybe the world and Christians in USA can help them.

He is spreading lies about us here in Israel living in the best beautiful place and state where we've enjoyed democracy and freedom with all what you sometimes see from very tiny minority of radical maybe

Jew that he is talking about. And we also like against those people but those don't represent

Jews because the Shin Bet, the police forces, the courts, the

Israeli Jews, the majority of them are against those tiny majority that don't represent the

Jewish people. So I'm gonna put those social media accounts in the info section.

If people wanna follow Shadi, I encourage you to do so. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on Shadi is because there is a lot of conversation about the conditions of Christians in Israel.

And I think it's fascinating that you trace back 2000 years your family to the early church.

You've been there in the region. How many Christians like you are there in Israel?

And is the population growing? I know Tucker Carlson said that Christian population is decreasing and he also used for some reason,

Bethlehem as an example, which is in the West Bank under Palestinian authority, but he said that was one of his examples of Christian population decreasing.

Maybe clear that whole thing up for us. Are Israeli Christians or Christians in that region, are they suppressed by the

Israeli government? Cause it sounds like you're having a different relationship with the government where they're supportive of what you're trying to do.

John, let me explain the spread of Christians in Israel and where they are located.

First of all, in the proper Israeli state like Israeli citizens, we are 180 ,000

Christians, okay? That's Israeli proper Christians, native Christians.

They are 180 ,000 Christians, why? Christians in the Judea and Samaria region, which is called also in other terms,

West Bank, is only 35 ,000 Christians. And those

Christians are not under Israel control, are under Palestinian authority control, unfortunately.

I wish, I wish Israel will annex Bethlehem, Beit Jala and Beit Sahour under, it is sovereignty and give those

Christians the Israeli citizenship and be free like us.

But the international community forced Israel to remind you in 1995 to give up Bethlehem to Islamic Sharia regime, which called the

Palestinian authority to Arafat. And under Israel, Bethlehem was with 80 to 90 % of Christians under Israel control until 1995.

From 1967 to 1995, Christians were 80 % to 90 % in Bethlehem.

When it was handed by a Muslim agreement to Palestinian authority, the

Christians under Palestinian authority regime declined and shrink to be only 10 % in Bethlehem.

It's not because of Israel controlled them, it's because the Palestinian authority controlled them and oppressed them and their neighbors, the

Muslim neighbors treated them as a second class citizens and harassed their daughters and confiscated their lands and their businesses.

And we know so many stories that those people and some of them, our families that live there, tell us what's happening for them on this land.

So I don't expect Tucker Carlson to come and interview some people who just match his narrative and ideology.

I don't know where he brings this ideology, unfortunately, against Israel and the Jewish people, which hurt the

Christians. And how it hurt the Christian? It hurt the Christian by not exposing the truth about their suffer under Arab Palestinian regime and under Arab other states.

And if he would expose that truth of oppression and suffer, then the

Christians in the United States and Western world would awaken and be helpful for us in this region in a better way.

He's not doing so, and he's hurting us and damaging us and our relations with the

Jewish people, the only state that allow us this freedom, at least here in the state of Israel. Let me ask you this.

I know that there's Christians who, at least they call themselves Christians, right? I mean, they live in those regions and they will blame

Israel. Say there's settlements that are surrounding them, that IDF soldiers have shot at them or Harare Jews have thrown rocks at them.

And they seem to blame Israel the way that the Palestinian authority Muslims blame

Israel. And so maybe make sense of that for us because you're a

Aramaic Christian who has lived in that region and now is an Israeli citizen for 2000 years.

Is this a different Christian group that's politically motivated against Israel or are these people afraid of the

Palestinian authority? And so they're saying what the Palestinian authority wants or what's going on here because people are confused.

The church leaders of those people in the West Bank under Palestinian authority are threatened by the

Palestinian authority rulers. And they are forced to speak against Israel because they are paying lip service instead of paying

Jizya, which is a fine under Islamic law for non -Muslims.

They are paying by lip service by talking badly against Jews and demonizing

Jewish people and Israelis because if they don't, they will be punished and they will be harassed more and they will be oppressed and they will be physically threatened to be attacked as they did in some cases.

So they are talking, this is one reason why they are talking this way. And second reason church leaders as well have interest in other

Arab countries because same churches that exist in Judea, Samaria and in Israel and in Jordan as well exist and in Syria it also exists and in Egypt and in other places.

And if they speak good way for Israel, they will be punished in other places and their interest and lands and they have institutions, schools, they will be probably in danger.

So it's better to speak badly about Israel to satisfy the needs of the Arabs and the

Islamic cause that it is to build up the empire again in the

Middle East and Israel, the land of Israel and Jerusalem, it's part of their Islamic empire dream.

So this way it's okay for the church leaders to speak against Israel and Israel will do nothing to them because it's democracy.

While if they do against the Arabs, the Arabs will behead them, the

Arabs will attack them. And that's the difference. We are democracy, we do nothing for people who speak badly because we have free speech, we have a free movement, we have a free worship and we enjoy our life as democratic state while in other

Arab countries it's all autocratic regimes, dictatorship regimes, kingdoms and the

Islamic law and that's very dangerous regimes. Do you know

Elias Zarina? Do you know that name? Of course I know. Yeah, I know. And he said that he grew up in Jerusalem and that even the

Christians in that region, if they go to a Catholic school or something, very often, and he was one of these people, they receive a very pro -Palestinian, pro -Muslim narrative.

And part of this is the price of trying to live at peace with Muslims when they are in the majority, especially in those regions that they're connected to, like you said, in a

Palestinian controlled territory. But his story is of course very interesting because his sister is essentially kidnapped, he goes to the

Palestinian Authority, they won't do anything about it. And these stories aren't really getting out there.

And I'm just wondering, maybe just reinforce this, the Christian population is going up in Israel, you're saying, and the demographics bear this out, it's going down in the

Muslim controlled regions that are surrounding Israel. And it sounds like you have full civil rights, but it hasn't always been that way.

You said there was a history of persecution for you, maybe flesh that out a little bit, the relationship of your family, of your specific tradition, which is this ancient

Christian tradition there with Muslims and now the state of Israel, how are the two different as far as conditions are concerned?

Here in the state of Israel, at least finally since 1948, after the stability comes in in 1967 and how we call it military situation come down, we enjoy equality, we enjoy one order of law, we enjoy one democratic laws for all citizens with all backgrounds, that's

Israel. While under Islamic regime and before 1948, to tell you how my people were living under Islamic regimes and under majority of Muslims, they were telling our people, and I heard this from my grandmother that God give her long life, she's 95 years old now.

She's telling me when it was before Israel, she's born in the 20s, 1920s.

Before Israel, the Muslims were used to come to their communities and steal their sheep, their goats, their wheat, everything they grew up and they couldn't even dare to speak anything against them.

And under those regimes or before Israel, when a

Christian was walking in the front of a Muslim or opposite to a Muslim, he would, the

Muslim would tell him, shaman ya kafir, means go left, you are infidel.

You should walk in the left side and not in the right side of the street. The Maronite people, our people in Beirut, in Lebanon, they used to tell them walk in the sewer, in the mid of the road where the sewer goes to make them very little like to insult them.

That's the discrimination and the oppression that Christian used to live under Islamic regimes.

And this is what Tucker Carlson want to bring on us again by promoting this Qatari Islamic Brotherhood supporters.

That's what he want for us or he want us to live under democratic Israeli state where at least we enjoy dignity and freedom and freedom of worship and our life is good.

And we are actually can apply to any job we want and go to any position we want if we qualify of course for it, okay?

That's the difference. We are like implanted in high -tech companies. We are leading in many positions because the

Christian population in Israel is the highest educated people in the country compared to other populations.

Christians are compared and competing actually with the

Jewish Ashkenazi people, the European Jewish people. We are in the level of them by competing on the level of education.

We are the most highly educated population in Israel. So what he's talking about?

What impression he's talking about this guy? I invited him many times to come to speak here with me and show him.

I wanted to take him to people in the gallery to see the people and hear if they prefer to live under Arab Islamic regime as he's promoting or under Israeli Jewish regime.

And I know the answer. I know the answer. 99 % they will tell him we prefer

Jewish regime if not 100%. You want to build a

Christian town in that region specifically for your people. Is that a plan that the

Israeli government sees as a threat or are they supportive of you? No, it is the...

I can tell you I have a green light. I didn't expose that before, but I have a green light from the government to build the first Christian Aramaic town in the

Galilee in modern time in Israel. And it would be the first Christian town that was built in modern time, not only in Israel, in the entire

Middle East. It would be the first to be built since maybe I can tell you 1 ,400 years.

Wow. Because under Islamic regimes, you are not able to rebuild what was destroyed as a

Christian. If a church was destroyed, you're not allowed to rebuild it. If homes are destroyed, you're not allowed to rebuild it.

That's only if you pay Jizya, you pay the tax, the fines for them. This town would be, if I'm not exaggerating, at least 200 years, let me modest with you, that no other town was built within 200 years from now.

This would be the first one. And I have a green light from the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, for it already.

That's incredible. What message do you have for American Christians about the situation in Israel for Christians or really anything you want to talk about?

What message do you have? Before I send you the message or send American this message,

I want them to know that this town would teach Aramaic language, would revive our forefathers' language and preserve our identity and our faith as native

Christians in the land. With the encouragement and the permission of the state of Israel, it would be in the

Galilee and it will have an international conference center for Aramaic language.

And those Western Christians will come and have a place for them to come and stay with us in this town.

And we can join forces together to learn together and how you call, to educate each others about our roots and culture and bring a light to the nation from this town.

That's a vision for this town. It would be touristic town for Western Christians to come and be with Eastern Christians.

And all with the permit and consent of the state of Israel and the government of Israel that this

Tucker Carlson is so obsessed against them. Unfortunately, instead of being obsessed against Arab and Islamic regimes that oppress the

Christian population. So for my message to your people in the

West and the United States, Christians specifically, please don't be deceived by some people who spread hate and who are paid by so -called

Qatari regimes or Iranian regimes or China or whoever it is paying this

Carson or Moscow or I don't know who, I really don't know who's standing behind him.

But there is someone standing behind this propaganda and he is actually playing the game for them.

And that brings damage for us. First of all to us and don't play this game with him.

Please, if you want to know the truth, follow us, come to us, ask us.

Don't be deceived by those people who are interviewed by Tucker because those people are exactly the same people who got paid.

And we don't afraid from people who killed the body.

We are afraid from people who killed the soul and those people killing the soul of Christianity.

And by spreading these lies, they kill us here while we are still alive.

They kill our soul, they kill our existence. They don't give us a chance to stand up again because of these lies because they are encouraging

Muslims to keep oppressing us and not exposing the truth. Well, your story

Shadi, it sounds like a lot of stories throughout the years of people who have been separated from their past to some extent.

And when they discover who they are because of their history, they become enriched, defensive of it.

They want it to expand. And you sound like you want to educate and help your people prosper.

One final question. You said there's 180 ,000 Christians approximately in Israel proper.

How many of them are the kind of Christian that you are that traces back 2000 years ago?

Not a convert, but someone who's been in the land for that long. Majority of us.

Almost all of them. Majority, yes. All like churches here are apostolic churches.

And what's that? I can tell you also like evidence. What's about the names of those churches?

Our church, for example, is the Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch, Antiochian Church.

St. Peter founded the Church of Antioch. The Greek Catholic Church. It was a

Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch or of Jerusalem. The Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.

The Syriac Catholic Church of Antioch. The Church of the

East, or they call it Chaldean or Assyrian Church in Iraq. All those communities exist also here in Israel.

And they are back to those ancient times. And before Christianity, we were Aramaic speaking people in this region.

Maybe some of us were Jews. And we were the first followers of Jesus since those times.

Majority of those followers and believers of those churches are from those ancient times. Very few, very few are like foreign

Western Christians who came during Crusades time, or during later times like in 19th century or 20th century that come and stayed here.

But those are very few of them, even not 5%. Well, the reason I ask is because it sounds to me like if anyone has a claim to the land based on chronological superiority, which is what

I keep hearing about that region, it would be your group that predates Islam as a religion.

You've been there for a long time. And I hope for the continued existence and prosperity of your people.

God bless you. Thank you for sharing all of this with us. And please, if anyone wants to follow

Shadi, go to the info section, there's links there. You can follow him and support his work. God bless you.