Entering the Life of Victory (Video) — Zac Poonen

Spiritual Growth Beyond Christian Infancy

As the church grows in numbers, we have people at different levels of the Christian life. As our children grow up, and some of them are hearing the gospel for the first time, in a sense, even though they've been sitting here many years, they were too young to understand.

So the great burden a true servant of God has is to ensure that God's word is preached, not in one single message, but over a period of time in any church, where the children, spiritual children at all grades, get something.

And that's not easy, because there are some who never seem to get out of the kindergarten, even after sitting in the church for seven, eight years. Now, I believe that a Christian should enter the promised land in two years.

And I'll tell you why I say that, from two examples. The Bible says that when you're born, you're like little children, babies, born. And in almost every case, by the time a child is two years old, he can walk.

Till then, he's falling, getting up, falling. You don't get upset with it. Nine-month-old, falling, getting up. Even sometimes, a little over one year, they're falling, getting up. But if a child is two years old, and if you think of your child, if it was two years old and still falling, still getting up, falling many times a day, you would get concerned.

Are you concerned that you've been a believer for two years, and you're still falling and falling? Okay, even I can fall. I can trip on stone outside and fall, even at my age. So that can happen to anybody at any stage.

But victory over sin does not mean I'll never fall. Victory over sin means I've learned to walk. So I'm not asking you whether you ever fall or whether you ever will fall. My question is, have you learned to walk?

Are you more than two years old in the Lord? Now I know that's not true of the vast majority of Christians, but that's because they don't take the Christian life seriously. I'll tell you, if you keep carrying, if you want to make sure your child never learns to walk, I'll give you the prescription for it.

Carry him all the time. Never let him on the ground, put him on the ground. You carry him, carry him. As soon as he gets out of the bed, carry him. Let somebody carry him all the time or keep him in the bed all the time.

I guarantee even when he's 10 years old, he won't learn to walk. He's got to be put on the ground, and he crawls and he gets up and tries to walk and falls down, and don't get disturbed, he'll learn to walk.

Now I find today in Christendom, there are so many pastors and preachers who are just carrying these little babies in their church all the time. The only message, I'll tell you what I mean by carrying a baby.

The only message they'll preach to them is, God loves you brother. You don't know how much he loves you. He's always longing for you. He misses you so much, he's wanting to see you in heaven one day. Oh, it doesn't matter if you fall, he loves you, he wants to pick you up and carry you.

You keep listening to that for 5 or 10 years, you'll be a baby. You'll never in your life will you get victory over sin. Till somebody lets you on the ground and you've run and fallen, you're determined to learn to walk.

Look at a child, it doesn't matter how many times it falls in a day, it's determined to walk. It never gives up, oh I fell down 50 times today, so there's no hope for me. Foolish believers say that, but not a child of God.

Two Years in the Wilderness and the Promised Land

So the other reason why I say 2 years is God's plan. I mean, you can take longer than 2 years. How long does it take for you to finish 12th grade or high school? Most children, 12 years. But you can take 30 years, right?

Why not? How long does it take to go and be a graduate in a college? 4 years? Well, you can take 40 years as well. It depends on how seriously you take your education. The person who is really sincere will finish 12th grade in 12 years.

Finish college in 4 years. The child will learn to walk in 2 years. And a wholehearted disciple of Jesus will learn the life of victory in 2 years. I believe that's God's will. Which shows how few Christians are really wholehearted about overcoming sin.

They prefer to be carried and petted and cared for. Now if you turn to Deuteronomy chapter 2, we read here about how the children of Israel, Moses is describing their wandering through the wilderness.

And I want you to see this verse, Deuteronomy 2 verse 14. First of all, how many years did Israel wander in the wilderness? Do you know? Altogether? 40 years. That is the punishment God gave them. Now listen to this.

This is the border of the promised land. He says in Deuteronomy 2 verse 14. The time it took for us to come from Kadesh Barnea. Kadesh Barnea was the place where they sent the spies into the land. And you read in Numbers in chapter 13.

The spies went into the land and came back and said, Oh, we can't conquer this land. Joshua and Caleb said, no, we can go. But the other 10 spies said, no, we can't go. And the 600 ,000 people believed the 10 spies and said, we can't go.

Canaan is a picture of the life of victory. Deliverance from Egypt is a picture of being born again. Going through the Red Sea is a picture of water baptism. The wandering in the wilderness for 40 years is a picture of life under the law.

The child trying to learn to walk for 40 years. But it says here, the time it took from Kadesh Barnea until we crossed the Brook Zero, which is ready to cross into Jordan, is 38 years. And during those 38 years, all the generation of the men of war perished from within the camp as the Lord had sworn them.

What does that prove? That means in God's plan, from Egypt to Kadesh Barnea, where they were supposed to cross into, into Canaan was two years. Because they did not, God sent them into the wilderness for another 38 years.

So it's from that verse that I understand that God's plan, original plan for the Israelites was that two years after they came out of Egypt, redeemed by the blood, baptized in the Red Sea, God wanted them to overcome Canaan.

You see, two years, such a short time. That was God's plan. If they trusted, you know, after two years, Joshua and Caleb said, we're ready. They were ready after two years. See what they say in Numbers.

Let me tell you the history, what happened after two years. Two years after they left Egypt, they came to this place in Numbers in chapter 13. The Lord spoke to Moses. This is two years after they left Egypt.

We know that from the verse I read in Deuteronomy. Send the people to spy out the land because I am going to give this land to the sons of Israel. That's like the Lord saying in Romans 6 .14, Sin shall not have dominion over you.

I don't care how many giants have ruled the land of Canaan or your life and your body and your mind all these years. They will not reign over you anymore. I'm going to give you this land. Now send some tribes, people from the tribes to search out the land.

And Moses sent at the command of the Lord from each tribe he took one person and the total was 12 people. And they all went, verse 16, these men, Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses, verse 17, sent them to spy the land.

Go there and come back and tell me what it's like. What is the land like? Is it good or bad? Verse 19, what are the camps like? How is the land? Is it fat or lean? Verse 20, what about the trees? Try and get some fruit from there, verse 20.

And they went out and spied out the land. You see, he also told them, verse 19, see whether the people are living in it, whether they are strong or weak. Okay, they went out and spied out the land and came back.

And they, you know, the grapes were so huge. It says in verse 23 that when they cut down a branch of one cluster, a single cluster of grapes, verse 23, it was so heavy that two people had to carry it on their shoulders.

And then they came back, verse 25, after 40 days. They'd gone around 40 days examining the land. And they came to the congregation and they told them, we went into the land, verse 27, and it certainly does flow with milk and honey.

The Testimony of a Life of Victory

You see, this is the testimony of those who have come into a life of victory. It's a wonderful life when we are living in fellowship with Jesus all the time, filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a life of overcoming.

Like Paul says in 2 Corinthians 2 and verse 14, he says, thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ. There's only one meaning for always, if you look up the dictionary, is 24 -7. Who 24 -7 leads us in triumph in Christ.

Now, it's almost unbelievable, but there was a man in the Bible who said that, the Apostle Paul. And there are many men since then, not many, but a few through the ages, who've had that testimony. Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph, who brings every giant of Canaan under our feet, without exception.

There's no giant too strong for the Lord. But they said, even though it's a beautiful land, a land of love and joy, and verse 27, I'm paraphrasing it, a land flowing with love, joy, peace, long-suffering, and gentleness, and goodness, and faithfulness, and meekness, and self-control.

It's a wonderful land, the fruit of the land. But, the giants who live there are strong. The cities they have fortified are so large, and the descendants of Anak was there, the huge giants. And so, Caleb quieted the people and said, no, we can go in and possess this land.

See, he was also one of the spies, according to Genesis, I mean, Numbers 13, 6. He was one of the spies. He said, I saw those giants. I know they're huge, but we can't take possession of it. We can't overcome sin.

But the men who had gone up with him said, no, no, no, no, no, no. This anger, I tell you, my father had it, my mother had it, my grandfather had it, my parents told me that, and they said, it runs in the family.

I tell you, it runs in everybody's family, not just yours. And I cannot overcome it. That's the language of these people. No, no, no, they're too strong. The sexual lust, oh boy, it's too strong. It's too strong a giant.

I know God says, sin will not have dominion over you, but not when it comes to this. This particular giant is particularly strong. And we're not able to go up against the people. They are too strong for us.

Think of whichever sin, the sin which easily besets you, and see if your language is this language of unbelief in verse 31. This is too strong for me. And they gave a bad report. What is a bad report?

God wants you to conquer that land, and you come saying, no, it's too tough. They're too strong. The land is a wonderful land, oh boy, I'd really like to live with love, joy, peace, rejoice always, and be anxious for nothing, and thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph.

I know I'd like to live there, but it doesn't seem to work because the giants are too strong. And when I look at these massive sins that rule my life, verse 33, I look like a grasshopper. Which this giant called anger can crush every day, and this giant called sexual lust can crush every day.

Now I'm a little grasshopper there. Scripture is given so that we can learn from it for ourselves. All scripture is given for us to learn. The things that were written in the past were written for our instruction.

And everybody was, you know, one thing you can see, that they wept because they were sick and tired of this two years wandering in the wilderness. They said, we thought we could enter into this land, and these spies come and tell us.

I think these spies are pictures of pastors, preachers, who never entered the land themselves, older leaders, who have disheartened all the people saying, no, no, no, we've lived for you, don't try and come with all your new religion.

I've been a Christian 25 years and I couldn't possess the land. What are you talking about? You're just a young upstart. That's what they told me when I was a young person. I'll tell you, I thank God I did not listen to them.

It took me many years to come to victory, but I would never have come if I had listened to all those old men, preachers and pastors who were defeated in their lives and tried to dishearten me. Everybody around me accepted their word.

I said, no, I don't care. I remember telling the Lord, Lord, if I'm the only person in India who believes it, I'm going to believe it, because I believe your word. I'm not going to just say I believe God's word and then neglect it, like a lot of people do.

I am absolutely convinced that many of you, listen to me carefully, you say you believe the word of God, but I tell you to your face, some of you do not believe God's promises. It's not true. Because you've sat here in NCCF for so many years and it hasn't changed your life much.

It hasn't changed your family life much. What are you believing? Where is the light shining? It's darkness in some of your homes. If people could come secretly to your home and watch what's going on, it's darkness.

And yet I want to say to you in Jesus' name, it should not be like that. Let's move on. Let's possess the land. And it says here in Joshua, verse 6, chapter 14, verse 6, and Caleb, they spied out the land, they spoke to the congregation.

Look at this language of faith. The land which we pass through is an exceedingly good land. It's a wonderful life, brothers and sisters. Like it says in Proverbs 14, 14 in the Living Bible, the godly man's life is exciting.

That's how it's supposed to be. Every day, challenge to overcome situations, circumstances, sin. And the Lord is, if the Lord is pleased with us, verse 8, He will bring us into this land and give it to us.

And they tell the others, don't rebel against the Lord. Don't fear these people. Don't fear these sins that have ruled you for so long. They will be our prey. It's like they're going to be like the animals we capture.

We're going to capture them. Their protection has been removed from them. The devil was defeated on the cross. Don't act as if the devil is still victor. When you live a defeated life, you're proclaiming by your life, Satan is victor.

I tell you, he's not the victor. Jesus is victor. I don't care what you say with your mouth. What is your life proclaiming? What is your family life proclaiming? Satan is victor in my home. Satan is victor in my life.

Satan is victor in my thought life. It doesn't matter then what you say with your lips. Satan sits back and laughs. These fellows can say what they like with their lips. They can sing such beautiful songs.

But their life is testifying something else. And all my fellow demons, Satan says, can see it. All my fellow demons can see it every day. That their life is proclaiming something completely different from what they sing on Sunday morning.

Dear brothers and sisters, how many of you will rise to the challenge that Joshua and Caleb gives? It says, the Lord is with us. It says, don't be afraid. Their protection, verse 9, has been removed from them.

The Lord is with us. I will not be afraid. In one translation it says, they are like bread. We're going to eat them. They are our food. And that's really true. They are like our food. Like, let me repeat that story.

Conquering Sin Through Persistent Faith

The parable that I've heard before and some of you probably heard me say it, but for those of you who haven't heard it, there was this ugly looking lizard or iguana, one of these big lizards sitting on a man's shoulder.

It's a picture of sin that had conquered his life. And an angel comes to him and says, get rid of that, get rid of that. And that iguana lizard says, no, no, no, no, don't get rid of me. You and I have been friends for years.

I'll behave myself, I'll behave myself. And so he says, okay. And he argues with this angel, allows this sin to remain. And then finally he gets fed up. And he says, okay, you do it. And the angel pulls out that iguana lizard and throws it on the ground.

And suddenly it becomes a horse. And the angel tells this man, now you don't have to walk anymore to the promised land. You can gallop on this horse. This sin that ruled your life is what slowed you down, slowed you down throughout your life.

If you conquer it and put it down, it becomes a horse on which you can run and go full speed into God's kingdom. I've never forgotten that parable. Every sin I conquer is something that I can ride on and go fast into God's kingdom.

Remember that brothers and sisters and don't listen to the devil when he says, keep me, keep me, I'll behave myself. He'll never behave himself. He'll ruin your life. And it says when you hear such a wonderful message of victory, one would think all of Christendom should rise up to and says, yes, this is what's written throughout the Bible.

It says in Romans 6 .14, still will not have dominion over you. It says in Romans 8 .37, we are more than conquerors, not just conquerors. We are more than conquerors through him who loved us. It says in 2 Corinthians 2 .14, thanks be to God who always causes us to triumph in Christ.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4 verses 1 -4, I know nothing against myself. My conscience is absolutely clear. Paul says in Acts 24 .16, this is my testimony. I live with a perfectly good conscience every single day, all the time, 24 -7.

What a life, example of these men. Paul, John says at the age of 95, in 1 John 5 .3, God's commands are not a burden. There's not a single command of God, John says at the age of 95, that I found to be a burden in the last 65 years since I was filled with the spirit on the day of Pentecost.

Can you give that testimony? Even for one year, leave alone 65 years. There's a Chinese proverb that says, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and then another step. You don't have to walk a thousand miles, just one step, one step, continue, continue and you'll reach the end of the thousand miles.

The Holy Spirit, Fellowship, and a Life Turned Around

God's got a plan for your life. It was planned before you were born. It was planned before I was born. And all of us have messed up that plan for many, many years, you and I. I know I have. I've been a backslider in my life too.

And I repented and wept and cried out to God for years till God one day filled me with the Holy Spirit and turned me right around. I had my day of Pentecost and continuing in filling with the spirit. You cannot do it without it, it is impossible.

Don't even attempt it and don't go for these fake, counterfeit spirit's fullness found in a lot of Pentecostal churches. Go for the real thing that the apostles got on the day of Pentecost where Jesus said, you shall receive power.

Not tongues, power. I wanted power. I was thoroughly defeated in my life, more than all of you. But I said, Lord, I want power. I was at rock bottom when God met with me, filled me with the spirit and I'll tell you why.

If I were to draw a graph of my life from the time I was born again, I was really wholehearted and it was climbing, climbing. I was really wonderfully, according to the light I had, till a day came in my life, I said, Lord, I give up the ambition I had in my life to go to the top of my profession and I chuck it because you called me to leave it and serve you.

And I continued like that. But the one thing I lacked, or a couple of things I lacked, I did not have a spiritual father. I did not have a spiritual mentor to challenge me to a life of victory. I never heard a preacher preach saying, sin will not have dominion over you.

Come on, be an overcomer. I never heard that. So I was defeated. And the second thing I didn't have was fellowship. I never saw a church which functioned like a body of Christ where people loved the Lord and loved one another and functioned together as a body.

You know, it makes a tremendous difference when you have a body. Because if this hand is paralyzed, there's another hand that comes to hell. And if any part of this body is injured, when you're part of a body, it functions and helps and restores it, can massage it and bring it back to life.

But imagine if this hand is all by itself and it's dead. It's just like that, dead forever. I didn't have a body. I didn't have a spiritual father. And it's the years of my defeated. Then, you know, my graph started going down.

And once you're discouraged, you get more and more defeated. When you're discouraged, you condemn yourself. Oh, I'm preaching so many things. It's not true. I finally got so fed up with my life way back nearly 50 years ago.

I said, Lord, I'm not going to preach anymore because I'm a first-class hypocrite. I'm preaching and singing things which are not true in my life. I don't want to fool anybody anymore, sitting up there in front or standing up in front and acting like a holy man when I'm not.

I won't give up being a Christian. I love Jesus. I know He died for me. I know He's the only way of salvation. But I'll sit at the back of some church and never preach again. I really said that to the Lord.

Unless, Lord, you do something for me, make... Only one thing. I don't want the gift of healing or even preaching nothing. Make my inner life correspond with what I'm singing and saying. That's all. I don't ask for anything else.

Make my inner life correspond with what I'm saying I believe, with my testimony, with the songs I sing. That's all I ask you, Lord. And I was at rock bottom. I prayed like that and nothing seemed to happen.

I'll tell you this. Sometimes it can be so discouraging when you pray and pray and there doesn't seem to be an answer to it and you go down and down and down and down. And I was at rock bottom in my back sliding and there one day when I least expected it, God met with me and filled me with the Holy Spirit all of a sudden and began a life in me.

Of course, as a post script, He also gave me a little finger called the gift of tongues. Only this size. It wasn't 12 feet long like in some churches. A little gift of tongues. That was not the main thing.

The main thing is something began to change in my life. And I said, Lord, if this is the real fullness of the Holy Spirit, when I read the New Testament now, it should become a new book because the Holy Spirit wrote it.

I should see things in it that I have not understood or seen in the last 16 years that I've studied it. I'd studied the Bible thoroughly from 1959 to 1975. 16 years. But I believe you'll show me and I'll tell you this.

From that time when God met with me and filled me in the Holy Spirit and I believe in continuously being filled in the Holy Spirit, not just once for all experience. I've seen some of the most amazing truths in scripture that I never knew before about overcoming sin, about spiritual maturity, about building the church and overcoming Satan.

I never knew before that, for example, what it was to cast out a demon. But since that day, no demon could stand before me. If there was a demon in a person, he'd go at the name of Jesus. But I never knew these things before.

I really knew that Satan was being defeated. The kingdom of God has come. Jesus once said, If I cast out demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come. You remember that verse? If I cast out demons by the spirit of God, the kingdom of God has come.

And it really came. It became real in my life. It was not just verses in scripture. It was not just verses to memorize. It became real in my life. And boy, was I encouraged. And the Bible became a new book and I found so many things.

And it was not a sudden going up to the top of the mountain. The graph slowly began to move upwards. And it is not a perfectly straight line. I want to say that also for your encouragement. There were little dips in it, but not such huge dips like before.

Small little dips, but the dips were on a graph that was going upwards. That's the encouraging thing. I was going upwards, but there were small, small dips and I was going up and up and up and up. And the dips became less frequent.

It's a wonderful life. I'm not telling a fairy tale. This is really my testimony. And the most important thing the Lord showed me was I allowed you to go to the depth of defeat to teach you that I do not give the Holy Spirit to those who think they deserve Him, but to the most undeserving.

And at the time when they deserve Him the least. That cured me of ever thinking that the Holy Spirit is something you work for and get. You know how the entire religious world thinks they have to work for forgiveness of sins?

Back in India, there are people who roll on the ground to get forgiveness of sins, who go and dip themselves in rivers. There are many people in many religions who light candles and pray to Mary and so many other gods to get forgiveness.

What all they do to get forgiveness of sins? They give hundreds of thousands of dollars to get forgiveness of sins or rupees in India. No. How did you get forgiveness of sins? How many rupees did you pay?

How many dollars did you pay to get forgiveness of sins? How many times did you roll on the ground to get forgiveness of sins? We look at all those people and say, Boy, I wish they could understand. You don't have to roll on the ground, brother.

You don't have to dip in a river. It's free. You mean it's free? Yes, it's free. What about an undeserving wretch like me? You are the most qualified if you are an undeserving wretch. Are you the chief of sinners?

Christ died for you, man. Come right and get. And how long will it take me to get this forgiveness of sins? Do I have to wait six months or something? No. It's immediate. The birth process in the kingdom of God, I mean, there may be a lot of preparation for it, like in the mother's womb, a baby is formed, but the birth itself is a moment.

That's how new birth is. There may be a lot of preparation for it, of repentance, but you're born again. It's a moment. And it's not for those who are deserving. No, I certainly didn't deserve it. No, far from it.

I mean, if God picked on the basis of merit, He'd have picked a lot of other people before me, lots of other people. It's not on merit that I got my forgiveness of sins. That's why I can be bold to say that.

And it's not on my merit that I got filled with the Holy Spirit. God showed, and if God had filled me with the Holy Spirit, I mean, I was not backsliding, and I was living a pretty good life. I might have thought, it's because I've been so faithful, God filled me with the Holy Spirit.

And thank God, He filled me at a time when I was utterly, utterly defeated, to show me that the Holy Spirit is given not to those who deserve Him, but to those who need Him desperately. Oh boy, I needed Him desperately that day.

I say that for your encouragement. Because some of you, though you hear this so often, you still live under the illusion that I have to pray some more, I have to fast some more, I've got to do something more.

No, sir. No, sister. You have to yield everything and be honest about your defeated life and believe that God is true when He says something in His book. If you don't believe He can't do anything, without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

You can have everything else in your life, but you don't have faith, it is impossible to please Him. So, we read in Luke, in chapter 11, two parables. One is related to being filled with the Holy Spirit, and the other is related to overcoming sin and Satan.

Persistent Prayer for Power to Bless Others

Two parables. Do you know that Jesus only spoke two parables on prayer? And those are the only two parables I want to point out today. Number one is Luke, chapter 11. How to get into this promised land of Canaan?

And the Lord, the disciples came to Jesus and the Lord teaches us to pray. The chapter 11, verse 1. Luke 11, verse 1. And the Lord gives a long answer, teaches us to pray. Many people finish at verse 4 and say, okay, you know, our Father who art in heaven, they go through a whole prayer and that's over.

The fuller prayer is in Matthew 6. This is a little extract. But that is not the end of the answer to the Lord teach us to pray. Teach us to pray is the question in verse 1. And then it says, okay, I'll tell you what you should do.

When you pray, say this, be concerned about God's name, be concerned about God's kingdom, be concerned about God's glory and not your own needs first. God is not honored or glorified by your defeated life.

That's what you need to be concerned about first of all. Forget about your daily bread and your even forgiveness of sins comes later on. But God is not honored by your life. We pray for that. Father, hallowed be your name.

Let your kingdom come and so on. And then he said, I want to continue my answer. Your question is teach us to pray. I'll tell you how to pray. Supposing you have a friend and that friend is God. He is your friend.

And you go to him in the middle of the night and say, Lord, please give me something to help someone who is in need here. I want, here he is thinking of serving God. You shall receive power. What does Acts 1 .8 say?

You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you shall be witnesses to thee out of most parts of the earth. You shall be witnesses. So the Holy Spirit comes into our life to make us a blessing to others.

Not just to satisfy ourselves. You remember what Jesus said? If any man thirsts, let him come to me and drink. And out of his innermost being will flow rivers. Rivers are not for myself. I don't need a river.

A well is enough for me. What the Lord told the Samaritan woman, a well of water springing up. That's enough for me. The Lord says, No. You got to be a river. Not one river, but many rivers that wherever you go, people are blessed.

You know, when you look at the maps of the world, not nowadays, but you look at some of the ancient maps, the ancient civilization, always gathered together in certain areas of a country. And it's always around the rivers.

It's always like that. Because they needed water. You go to the desert places, Sahara or the middle of Australia, nobody lives there. Why? Because there's no water. Rivers, that's where people gathered.

And when rivers are flowing out of a person, the Lord will bring the people, those who are thirsty for that water. That's how we are to build the church. That's how the church is built. That I understood much later.

Rivers of living water will flow. So you're concerned about others. If you're not concerned about others, you can't build the church, I'll tell you that. If you're only concerned about yourself, sorry, you begin there, and you say, you go to him and say, give me three loaves, not for myself, I'm quite happy, but a friend of mine has come, I don't have anything to give him.

So there's two things I need to recognize. One, I'm a concern for these other people who are in need around me, who are lost, without salvation, or who are defeated in sin. I must have a concern for them.

Lord, a friend of mine is thoroughly defeated by sin. I want to paraphrase that. Please give me some power to help him to come into this godly life. I'm satisfied, you brought me to victory, but he hasn't come to that life.

And I have nothing to set before him. I got victory, but I don't know how to lead this person into this life. Do you feel like that? Well, this guy was honest. And, now God doesn't actually say that, but he tests our persistence.