Do Christians Suffer？ — Max Hougham

Good morning. I just want to greet you all in Jesus' name. I'm really thankful to be here. It's just been a long time since we missed last Sunday. I really appreciated the opening. Brother Leroy, I feel like we've been on the receiving end of that action verb of love now here for the last week or so.

Yeah, it's very humbling, a very big blessing, and necessary for the people of God. Yeah, I just wanted to share this morning on a topic I've been thinking about now for some time, and it's just come into sharper focus as of late.

Oh, maybe even a year ago, Brother Harvey talked about it in an opening. Just wanted to talk more about it, and as I was sitting here this morning thinking about it, I just kind of feel, I think when I started studying for it, I thought maybe it would be pretty short, and then it kind of got longer.

Some of the things are sometimes I feel like some of these topics are pretty weighty, and it's almost like especially when it comes time to actually do it and to share, it feels almost like I'm a boy in a hay barn playing with a book of matches.

If you see that this morning, and anything that I say, just call me out of the barn and show me how matches are supposed to be used. Hopefully that makes sense. I don't know, a lot of this stuff is a big deal, and I wouldn't want to get it wrong.

Why don't we all stand and pray? Father, thank you so much for giving us the ability to meet here this morning and to fill this place with music of worship to you, Father. Let our hearts be tuned right, and God, please give me the ability to speak this morning and not be overcome by nerves, or just be able, Father, to communicate clearly the things that are on my heart.

Let us all be open, Father, for correction and reproof and to edify each other. God, please bless our time together. Help us to live pleasing to you. In Jesus' name I pray. Number four. Starting at the beginning of Luke 4 to verse 13.

Christ’s Temptation and the Appeal of Deliverance

Right after Jesus was baptized. And Jesus, being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, being forty days tempted of the devil, and in those days he did eat nothing.

And when they were ended, he afterward hungered. And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it may be made bread. And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them.

For that is delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore will worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan. For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

And he brought him up to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence. For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee to keep thee.

And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

For a more opportune time, I think, is how it's put some places. Ah, there's a lot in this passage. There's a lot that could be said about it. I had written down that two out of the three temptations here put forth by Satan are trying to tempt Jesus to use his power for deliverance from the physical harm or hardship.

And he didn't do it, but really I guess as I read this again, I almost feel like it's all three of the instances in some way. Just one of the instances doesn't use Jesus' power, it would use the power of Satan to deliver kingdoms to Jesus himself.

You look at each example here, I mean we think about, so Jesus was fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, and Jesus offers him deliverance from the suffering of hunger. Just use some of your power to turn these stones into bread.

Then when he shows him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time from a high mountain place, those are going to be long to Christ. But at the time, at the present, they were kingdoms of the world and therefore in Satan's dominion.

And he offered him relief from the suffering that he should have gone through or that he was going to go through, if only he would bow down and worship him. So there was a deliverance there from the suffering that was at hand for Jesus.

And then lastly, he tempts Jesus to use his power to escape physical harm by falling down. And I've been thinking about how Satan framed those things and how he tempted Jesus. There was a temptation, there was something in it that was appealing to Jesus' flesh, otherwise it wouldn't have been temptation.

He had to wrestle with it, he had to struggle. I've thought that that wasn't just a no-brainer for him. There was a human element to Jesus and so he wrestled with this temptation, he wrestled with these offers of deliverance from suffering and he prevailed.

The Christian Calling to Suffer

And I've been thinking a lot about that lately, about suffering. With this pandemic and living here in a rural part of the country, it's just really hard to relate to those that are hardest hit by this thing, this pandemic, this COVID -19.

Opinions about this are about as varied as the different people that we meet. There's a lot. And one thought that I've come across, I guess, is I've heard others, especially in the realm of Christianity, talking about these things is an idea that I've heard at other times too, and it's the thought that true Christians will be spared hardship or suffering.

And just believing that and hanging on to the idea that God will protect his people. And hearing that kind of really made me reflect a lot on well, what is a Christian's role in suffering anyway? I mean, there seems to be a widely held belief, at least in Western Christianity, that God always relieves us or spares us of suffering and he restores all of life's pleasantries as they once were, as we remember them or as we hope they would be.

Is that accurate? Is that a right? Is that a right understanding? I'm not sure where all of that comes from. I guess I think maybe one Brother Joel has said that sometimes when we receive the light of the gospel and a lot of the wrongs of society and the wrongs of the world are brought to our attention, it's like you wake up in Disneyland and you decide you don't want to be there.

You can make a decision. You can figure out how to survive in Disneyland or you can leave. You can leave and go to somewhere that's not Disneyland. Disneyland would be a reference when Joel uses it. I think what he means is that this is a spoiled country.

There's just every flavor of excess and wealth and overindulgence available here. I think somebody told me a while ago that a family of four, for a week's vacation in Disney World, could spend $10 ,000 for a week's vacation.

It just blows me away and yet, in some ways, that's our reality living here in the United States. There's just this overabundance. I think some of these ideas about escaping suffering or that somehow we ought to be spared from any kind of suffering come from this innate attitude that's embedded in us from living in a country with a lot of material wealth.

I've heard this idea expressed at different times throughout my Christian journey about God's people being spared from any kind of hardship. I've heard it from people that have a copy of Martyr's Mirror or Fox's Book of Martyrs on their bookshelf.

Something just seems a little bit off and so I kind of wanted to dive into that this morning. This passage on Christ's temptation came to my mind. Satan preyed on Jesus' weakness in his flesh by offering deliverance from his physical hardship.

I believe that there can be a sinister twisting of God's truth that leads people to believe that we'll always be delivered or spared. One question I have this morning is assuming that that's not the case, what promises do we have concerning suffering?

Jesus’ Teaching About Persecution

I want to turn to another passage in Luke chapter 21. I'm a little scripture heavy this morning so I'll try to do a good job and get through it all. Luke chapter 21 verses 5 to 28. Let's see what Jesus has to say.

This is, I wrote down that this is suffering according to Jesus. Starting in verse 5. And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, as for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived, for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near.

Go ye not therefore after them, but when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified, for these things must first come to pass, but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nations shall rise up against one nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and great earthquakes shall be in diverse places, and famines, and pestilences, and fearful sights, and great signs shall there be from heaven.

But before all these they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake, and it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Settle it therefore in your hearts not to meditate before what ye shall answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends, and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake, but there shall not a hair of your head perish, for in your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let them which are in the midst of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations.

And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. There's a lot about suffering in this passage. Jesus tells us that we will stand before men to be condemned for the purpose of testimony.

He tells us that he will give us wisdom that cannot be refuted. He tells us that we will be hated for Jesus' name's sake. He says that our patience will be tested, and therein lies your soul. He says that we will not be eternally harmed.

He says that women and babies will suffer. And he says that men who have this knowledge will panic and be incapacitated by fear knowing what is coming. Here's some more of what Jesus had to say in chapter 9, verses 21 to 26.

I'm going to actually start in verse 20. He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing, saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

For what is a man advantaged if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, of him shall the Son of Man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his father's, and of the holy angels.

I picked this passage, I mean this is in a few of the gospels, and I picked the one in Luke here because he said that we ought to daily take up our cross and follow him. So there is this element of daily self-denial and suffering.

Jesus’ Charge to the Twelve

I want to turn to Jesus' charge to his twelve when he was getting ready to send his twelve out on their missionary journey. He had some advice for them in Matthew chapter 10, which is actually very similar to things that he says about these latter days.

Matthew chapter 10 verses 16 to 42, that's kind of a long one. Here's what he tells his twelve as he's getting ready to send them out to go preaching the gospel in the different cities. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.

Be therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. And you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak. For it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the spirit of your father which speaketh in you.

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child. And the children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

But he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another. For verily I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man become.

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Baal-Zebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Fear them not therefore, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, and hid that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in the light. And what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing, and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your father?

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. I just kind of see a pattern.

I see these ideas echoed, even though these are the instructions to the Twelve. These are ideas that are echoed throughout all of Jesus' teachings. Luke 21, when Jesus talks about that temple, he talks about a lot of suffering happening the world over.

And I believe that this suffering is not something that's exclusive to unbelievers. I think the people who are zealous for the kingdom of God will suffer right alongside the people of this world that are in straits, whether it's a pandemic or a drought or a famine or a pestilence.

I don't see anywhere where we're actually spared from those things. But also beyond the troubles that are mentioned in Luke 21, when Jesus talks about these latter days, we're also going to suffer above and beyond at the hands of men.

It's something that is nearly a guarantee. And it's just notable that we can expect more of the same treatment our Master received, especially if we bear his message. There are so many passages that talk to this, and I'm trying to keep it concise, but one I think of for sure is in Timothy when he says, all those who will live godly will suffer persecution.

It's just nearly a guarantee. And a noteworthy passage, I guess maybe I could just read part of it. I don't want time to run away, but in Romans chapter 8, everybody's familiar with it, but it's just a short little passage.

I'm just going to skim through it. Paul says to the church in Rome, It is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Suffering, Testimony, and Glory to God

So like, why all the suffering? This is like a dismal picture. I mean, it's kind of discouraging. What's the purpose? Why? Why all the suffering? I mean, this is really, when you think about a lot of messages in mainstream Christianity, the focus is really, and there's an element to this that's true, but again, it's like somehow, somehow the proper balance has been disrupted and corrupted.

And the whole emphasis is on an improved life by switching to an allegiance in Jesus. And it's a completely different message. It's a completely different way to look at things. And maybe it helps a little bit to know why.

And in part, I think we find part of the answer in 1 Peter chapter 2. 1 Peter chapter 2, 11 to 25. Dearly beloved, Peter says, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, having your conversation honest among the Gentiles, that whereas they speak evil against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I would hope that some of that means that there would be some repentance. I would hope that some people would be won by godly behavior, by righteousness, especially when you're being slandered. But that's not what it says here.

It says that they will glorify God in the day of visitation. And I think, this isn't an idea that's original with me, but I think some of that, like God will receive glory, not just from people who have persevered to the end, who have gained the crown of life, but he's also going to receive glory from those who lived a life in opposition to God and confess him, even through their punishing.

He receives glory from the sheep and from the goats, not just from one. In verse 13, he says, Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward, for this is thankworthy.

If a man, for conscience toward God, endure grief, suffering wrongfully, for what glory is it if, when you be buffeted for your faults, you shall take it patiently? But if, when you do well and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow his steps. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. A righteous response amidst unbelievers will bring glory to God when he comes again.

And righteous behavior amidst suffering also brings glory to God. So part of the reason, part of the why is the testimony that it brings to the rest of the world. It begs the question, and what I want to get into next, is like, well what about deliverance?

God’s Deliverance Through and From Suffering

I mean, this has been pretty one-sided so far. I've kind of had a heavy hand on the idea that God will deliver us from our suffering and that actually we're called to suffer. So does God not deliver his own, as Satan suggested to Jesus?

And I'd say sure he does. Sure. I mean, just think about some of the examples that we have, you know, available to us without even like the testimony of those in the early church, just in the scriptures alone.

Peter was miraculously delivered from prison by the angel. Paul was spared suffering and death from a snake bite. Jesus' would-be murderers were frozen as they were about to throw him headlong off of a cliff.

He walked through their midst and escaped them. And I mean, there are so many examples of that, and even like in personal testimony, I think everybody has an example of being spared something terrible.

And so I'm not trying to take away from that. I think that it's clear that God works in some of those ways. But there's other kinds of deliverance too that don't just come from being spared of something uncomfortable or unpleasant or worse.

I think about Joseph suffering not just hours, not just days, not just weeks, but for years as a slave and in prison. That was God's will. That was Joseph's testimony is that it was God's will and that it was part of a plan bigger than Joseph to spare Jacob and all of Israel.

I think about Stephen. He delivered, he was filled with the Holy Ghost and he delivered one of the most powerful sermons ever. And his deliverance came through being stoned to death. I guess I never really ceased to be blown away by Paul and the things that happened to Paul.

He's got some in both lists. He's got some in the list where he was delivered from terrible things and he didn't have to suffer. And then he's got these accounts of horrible suffering. I always think I need to do this with caution, but in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, he kind of gives a little rundown.

I think nobody can say it better than Paul himself of all the things that have happened to him. Just a little list. And I think it's important not to take this out of its context, which is that Paul is telling people not to glory as men and not to glory in their feats and their accomplishments and not to glory in suffering.

In other words, boast. It's important to say that he's putting these people, he's trying to put these people in their right place by telling them not to be boastful and not to be proud. It is not a list of bragging.

I just feel like to read this, it's important to put that in context. I'm going to read chapter 11 verse 23 through chapter 12 verse 1. Let's see. I think that might just about kill a man. You know, to be lashed 40 times.

39 times. 40 times. 40 times. 40 times. 40 times. I don't know. 40 times. 40 times. Yeah, well glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. I'll just stop there. I'm also blown away. I mean, any of these things in here.

I have this thought. I mean, yeah, just about Paul. The one where he was stoned outside of where he was stoned outside of Lystra, I think, and then he was dragged out of the, no, he was stoned in Lystra and then he was dragged out of the city and walked to Derby.

They didn't just throw a few rocks to shake him up a little bit. It was attempted murder, and maybe they were even successful. Maybe he was really killed. But somehow, I mean, I always have this picture of okay, he's been dragged out of the city, he's done, I guess it's time to take care of him, and he gets up and dusts himself off and goes into the next city to preach some more.

I just can't relate to that. It's just this, I mean, if I receive scorn of somebody for sharing a truth of the scriptures, it hurts. But he received the ultimate scorn. They're like, not only do we not agree with what you're saying, we're going to kill you for it.

And then he got up and went to tell more people. I'm just blown away by that. I was thinking about all of these things and I guess there's one thing in particular about Paul I just want to read because I think it's relevant in the vision to I think it was Ananias, Acts chapter 9, verses 10 -16.

Okay, so Paul is blind. He's still Saul at this point. And the Lord's got a message for Ananias. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias. And to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias.

And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas, for one called Saul of Tarsus. For behold, he prayeth.

And he hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man how much evil he hath done to thy saints of Jerusalem.

And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way, for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. These sufferings that I've been talking about with Paul were part of God's will for his ministry and for the way that he was going to reach people.

The Cross and the Promise of Paradise

And just in all of these examples, like I tried to think of one, because like the scripture is a story, it's a story of people's suffering and how they dealt with it, and how they turned to God. And there are just so many stories that you could touch or turn to, to try to explain the subject of suffering.

And the one that just really struck me was one of Jesus himself and somebody who suffered right next to him. In Luke 23 verses 26 to 49. I'll just start reading. And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one, Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country.

And on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. And there followed him a great company of people and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus, turning unto them, said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

For behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bear, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us, and to the hills, Cover us.

For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? And there were also two others, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him and the malefactors, one on the right hand and the other on the left.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment and cast lots. And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others, let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him and offering him vinegar, and saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek and Latin and Hebrew, This is the king of the Jews.

And one of the malefactors, which were hanged, railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

And having said thus, he gave up the ghost. It's an incredible story. Jesus told the women who were following after him and wailing that there would be suffering to come. And as he was I just think, like, if we have the premise that God is always going to deliver us from suffering if we just call on his name, that his will is always to save us from something, then we would have to believe that when this man turned to Jesus and said, Remember me when you come into your kingdom, that he would have walked off the cross and been spared anything.

I don't know, I want to hear your thoughts too on this, but like, when Jesus turned to him and he says, Verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise. Like, there's no offer there from the trial at hand of deliverance.

Deliverance, even though Jesus doesn't say this or say it this way, he tells the man where they're going to meet again. But the deliverance is going to come through suffering and through death. And then they die together.

It took that suffering of Jesus to be able to say to that man that together they'd be in paradise that day. Because had he not suffered, he wouldn't have said that to the man. I wanted to shift to something before I go into, because I think it's important, like, this all has a point and there's something that we do have.

And it's in this story that we just read. I read an article this last week and I found it kind of disturbing. It's from 2019 and it's about black vultures. There's a vulture they're the turkey vultures which are big and they're pretty harmless they're docile, they're good for the ecosystem.

Black vultures are good too they're not as big. They're about 5 pounds and their wingspan is about 5 feet. They've been pressing up higher into the U .S. than they used to be. They're now into southern Indiana.

They used to range from South America up to the southern states and now they're up into Indiana today. What's unique about the black vulture is that they're more aggressive. I learned something too in reading about this and that's that vultures know where carcasses are even above a tree canopy because they have a very keen sense of smell and they can smell when an animal has died it gives off a kind of a gas that they're designed to pick up on.

And so these black vultures turkey vultures are more solitary animals and they always are looking for something that's dead. However a black vulture kind of relies on other vultures to smell for them because they don't have that keen sense of smell that a turkey vulture has or like a king vulture.

So sometimes they can be seen following those rather than being solitary a black vulture will actually feed in flocks. Sometimes I think I've put some of the accounts I've read set up to 60 birds at a time and they will actually drive off other vultures.

But one thing about the black vulture is that if they get hungry they'll go after live meat. And there's been a big problem among cattle farmers in Kentucky and Indiana especially is where this story came from was Indiana.

And they'll target animals that are vulnerable. And I just want you to hear like there's one farmer in here and he explains how they do it. These birds are incredibly intelligent these vultures are. And so they've kind of got like when they develop a taste for something that's alive still they're very strategic in how they bring down an animal.

Now remember it's about a five pound bird. Here's what this man says I'm just going to read his account. Lawson said he's noticed more vultures since 2009 when he thinks they started nesting near Fox Hollow Farm.