Road Trip Dividing Line: Jeff Durbin and the Jewish Representative, then Jay Dyer on Abraham

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:29

Greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line Road Trip, edition number one, actually, for this trip.

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I am, well, I'm obviously near Houston because the air is thick.

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Coming from the desert where since January the dew point's been like down near freezing.

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Dry, dry, dry, dry, dry, dry, dry. And we'll be till the end of May. Really into June.

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Wow. Humidity. Yay. Yeah, yeah.

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I just got a little rain and, you know, it's just cloudy and, yeah.

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But anyway, we're here, you know, over halfway across the nation of Texas now.

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We actually get to Lafayette, Louisiana tomorrow where I will be speaking in the evening,

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Lord willing, that I get there and don't have flat tires or engine problems or whatever else could possibly happen.

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I hope they do have a backup plan just in case. Always need to have one when the itinerant preacher is coming through.

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I bet you probably had to have that during the Methodist circuit rider days. What if the horse went lame? Did they have a deacon with a sermon, you know, on the back of his

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Bible just in case? I bet they did. I bet they did. We get to Lafayette and then on to Livingston for the debate on Friday.

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Really looking forward to that with Doug Levesque and then teaching there at the church on Saturday night and then preaching

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Sunday morning. So the trip's gone pretty well so far. No major issues.

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I do have the distinct feeling that I -10 will be under construction around San Antonio forever and will never, ever be finished.

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It is a horrible, horrible thing to drive a beast this big through those narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow lanes where you've got the cement barriers on each side because it's not so much that that's hard to do.

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It's that these guys in semi -tractor trailers think it's the

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Daytona 500. And, I mean, I pull my mirrors in, you know,

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I can have them extended so I can see. I pull them in when I'm in there. That's how close we get.

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And today I look in my rearview mirror and this guy is coming up on my left.

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I'm going the speed limit, but he's coming up on my left. He's a wide load.

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I have no idea because I had maybe three inches beyond the line over on this side.

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He had about two inches on that side. I don't know how that even happened. I don't even know how that even happened.

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But yeah, somehow got through and all the windows are still intact. There aren't any big, long gashes along the side, anything.

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It really seemed like one of those cartoons, you know, where everything gets really skinny for a while. Yeah, it was, yeah.

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So anyway, here we are. And if you want some insight into how demanding some of us

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C and B listers are, Skip Rainbow, just I'll be speaking at Skip Rainbow's church at the end of this trip, well, before I start heading back anyways, end of the

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Louisiana loop up there outside of Shreveport. And he said, hey, since you're preaching in the morning,

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Sunday school, I've been going through church history. Love that. And we're up to Augustine.

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Would you like to do 40 minutes on Augustine? And I said, well, it's going to cost, it's going to cost.

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If you if you want to be there that early, you know, if I have to start talking about Augustine at 10 o 'clock in the morning, you need to have some yummy, fresh maple frosted doughnuts there at 945.

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That's you know, everybody's got their price. So that's my price is some maple frosted doughnuts with enough time to eat it and hence experience the sugar rush and crash during during the lecture.

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So, yeah, that's us big boys. That's that's how we do it is we make our our demands that way.

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So on the program today. Let's see, how do

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I do that? I think I do that. There we go. I'm going to be doing stuff

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I've never done before. OK, so we're going to we're going to mess up a few times. It's not going to be pretty. Just have to just have to live with it.

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I'm, you know, I'm on the road doing this on my own, which has made it as simple as can, but I'm I'm still simpler.

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So we'll we'll do our best. What I wanted to. To do today on the program is

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I wanted to, first of all, look at. Where'd that go?

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Oh, did I separate the window out? I did. There it is. All right, here's the window.

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Last week. Jeff Durbin had the opportunity of.

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Testifying before a committee in the capital in Georgia.

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And, you know, I just realized I did not recue this, unfortunately. Let me see if I can at least get close.

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Yeah, I think this will be fairly close. Um, I don't like to say as always, because each time is a is a challenge.

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But there are very few men, you know, Bradley Pierce, Jeff Durbin, Brian Gunter, the pastor of the church that I will be.

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Doing the debate at and preaching at this weekend there in Livingston. There are very few men who have who on their deathbed will be able to think back.

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On how they. Stood before the governmental authorities.

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Of this nation. And not only pled for the lives of.

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Preborn children, but brought the gospel to bear, didn't play politics.

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Didn't try to, you know, create a political block by trading favors, but looked.

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Our elected officials in the eye for what they are, they're human beings who will stand.

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Sooner or later. In judgment before God. And they will answer.

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For what they did in this life. And. Jeff is just, you know, it's.

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God wires us in certain ways. People have always asked me, how can you stay so calm in debates?

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Well, I don't always stay so calm debates. But yeah, I learned a long time ago that the more crazy your opponent gets.

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Just give them more rope. And the way to do that is to. Chill out. Let them make a fool of themselves.

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That's what I do. Let them let them. And. Jeff. Does that in these situations, because, you know, these.

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Wild eyed leftists come after him from every angle. And he just remains calm and just.

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Reasons presupposition Lee with them. He is a presupposition list.

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He has done debates. He and I have done debates together. He's done debates with other folks, with atheists.

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He's utilizes the presuppositional method. Where you recognize that the person with whom you're speaking.

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Is made in the image of God. And they live in God's world. But since they are in rebellion against God.

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They cannot reason consistently. I did not say they cannot reason.

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They cannot reason consistently. And so. The presuppositional apologists job.

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Is to. Let them speak. It won't take them long for them to hand you.

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The handcuffs. And the key. To take them captive because.

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They're made in God's image. They live in God's world. They're trying to pretend they can make their own world.

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But they can't do it. They will eventually trip up and give you. What you need to be able to press on the point.

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It's called an internal critique. Where you take their stated presuppositions.

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And their words, their reasoning. And demonstrate the inconsistency and incoherence.

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Because they will eventually contradict themselves. And then over against that. You demonstrate the coherence and consistency.

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Of God's word with God's world. And. You then pray that God will.

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Bring conviction to the heart. That you need to be consistent. That you need to glorify your creator.

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That you need to submit your creator. Only the spirit of God can bring that. And what you don't do is try to.

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Work on their emotions. You don't try to trick them into doing things. That's not how the

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Holy Spirit works. He's the spirit of truth. So you do what you. Need to do so.

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I wouldn't mind playing the whole testimony. That Jeff gave. It's online.

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Go to the end abortion now dot com. YouTube channel. I highly recommend that you.

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Listen to the whole thing. Give thanks to God for the opportunity to do this. Realize that unfortunately.

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While the pro -life movement has been active for years and years and years. This kind of gospel based.

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Facing of the magistrate. Calling them to repentance. Warning them of the coming judgment.

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And basically straightforward telling them. If you do not do this. You will be judged for the lives that will be lost as a result.

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I mean that's. That's not how you win friends influence people unless. Unless. You actually believe.

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That the spirit of God. Is. Absolutely necessary. To bring about anything and Jeff and I are both.

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Post -millennialists we believe that. Christ will be victorious.

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That's all of his enemies will be placed under his feet that he must reign.

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Until those enemies are placed under his feet. And. As a result we can have confidence.

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And one of the things that converted me honestly was when I thought about the fact.

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Do I really believe that. God could convert the nations. And it's like well if you're a

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Calvinist you're sort of stuck with that aren't you. If he could have saved me and people in my family people in my church obviously you just.

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Do that to a greater extent in his time and in his way and so I had to admit well of course you could well then what do you do with the promises you know.

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The sun ask and I'll give the nations as your inheritance the sun didn't ask. The sun isn't going to ask or is it just simply it's a matter of time

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I had a guy in in Twitter. Just a little while ago.

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I had made reference to and it's interesting Jeff has testified before the legislature in Colorado and man.

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Colorado is one of the most beautiful states around it's beautiful I love going up there but I'll be honest after this summer

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I'm not sure if I'm going to continue doing that you know if I'm going to be consistent it's becoming as bad as California the leftists there are just whacked out and they're they're throwing this bill out where you know it's just like California we can take your kids away from you if you misgender them if they say they're if they've got a boy says his girl you've got a.

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You've got to do hormones all the rest is I mean it is just satanic evil absolutely satanic evil.

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It's astonishing. And I posted about on Twitter and this guy's good well it doesn't really look like your post mill things working real well and I'm like you don't understand what post

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Millennialism. There are valleys there are highs it's not a straight ascent upward.

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There are nations that fall empires that fall and that's that's not what it's about but a lot of people misunderstand all that so I just tried to direct him to some resources that would help them.

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So anyway. I would encourage you to go to endabortionnow .com the

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I'm sorry well there I'm sure the links are there too but to the end abortion now YouTube page and listen to the whole encounter and to listen to how masterfully how professionally and yet passionately without compromise that Jeff deals with these leftist.

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Arguments as they are presented to him. In this in this committee meeting and just you know for all the

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Christian nationalists running around talking about Christian princes and all the rest that stuff. Who's actually.

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You know standing in front of these people and calling them to repentance calling them to submission to Christ.

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Yeah so what happened was there was an encounter with a

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Jewish representative a woman she says she's the only Jewish elected representative in the state of Georgia.

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And I don't know if somebody clipped it I don't know if an abortion now clipped it just what it was but it was posted a few days ago it was posted on I think

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Thursday of last week. And. It was posted by Joel Webber and.

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He criticized Jeff's interaction with this one. So I want to.

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Listen to the reaction. And then I want to talk about what it means to actually be a presupposition list which

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Joel once said he was but I don't think you ever understood it. And hence defend.

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Jeff's approach. From the accusation made by the weapon.

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And again I given that this coming weekend is the trash world conference.

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I don't think the self evident accusation.

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That Joel doesn't understand presuppositional ism is going to be all that big of a deal because.

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My belief is that the vast majority of these guys who once said they were this including the honest presuppositional as well as I think they'll abandon all of it because Stephen Wolfe doesn't believe in any of that and considers it unreformed and a historical and all the rest

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I guess he doesn't. Either but he's he's the man now so I I doubt that my going hey look.

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Joel Webber doesn't even recognize someone arguing presuppositionally for presupposition less that sort of scary but I don't think that's going to have much of a long term impact because I think eventually he's going to go yeah you know this natural law thing

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I had never really given a consideration but now I have and yeah it's really important.

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And so you have until missed it and I'll go read this book there that thing that we've seen that happen a lot lately and it's not because the arguments compelling it's just because the people had been what they were out of popularity.

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This is this cool thing to be. This is what the cool kids are doing. And so it's really easy to abandon that.

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So I'm hoping this is going to work. The microphone is on it. I put this way.

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Of I did this in a test mode on Twitter with rich.

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Half an hour ago and it worked just fine whether but my experience with electronic equipment is yeah it doesn't mean nothing that works an hour ago we will we will find out here in a moment.

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Let's like I said I wasn't sure exactly where this was cued up to I may have to interrupt it.

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Let's let's see how it goes. What I for the mother is more important than a life of an unborn.

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OK. Hold on. Are you telling me that it in the state of Georgia.

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Judaism posits that the life of the mother is more important than a life of an unborn.

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Are you telling me that I don't have a right to my religious liberty. Well no everyone would appeal to an ultimate authority over all of us.

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And one of the things that I respect and admire about Judaism is that we share the same scriptures the Torah the

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Talmud and not the Talmud or the Torah and the law of the prophets. And scripture does teach without question that from fertilization all human life begins and that we are uniquely made by God created in the wombs of our mothers and known by God.

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And so with that Judaism as well as Christianity would teach that every human being must be protected and given equal justice.

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One of the laws of Moses that's repeated over and over is no partiality. We treat everybody equally.

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And the point that I was making representative I appreciate you asking the question was the same point that can be used in terms of our

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Jewish brothers and sisters where there was a time in history where there was a class of people that drew a circle around themselves.

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The Germans the SS and said that we can oppress our Jewish brothers and sisters that we can treat them with abuse we can kill them.

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My point representative was that we've had this problem in history many times over where a class of human beings says to another class of human beings we can oppress you we can kill you we can murder you.

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And what we're saying with this bill is that every human being is made in God's image and deserves to be.

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And everyone everyone died women men and children. I understand that.

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But Judaism does not posit that life begins at fertilization. It says that it's like water until 40 days.

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And the way you know this is look at Israel abortion is readily available and it's free.

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So when please don't mistake what my religion tells me is my duty.

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If I am at risk if my life is at risk I may not only be it may not only be suggested of me to have an abortion but required of me to have an abortion because a life in being my life takes priority over something that is not has not been born yet.

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So how do I exercise my religious liberty under your bill if it was adopted.

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Well this particular answer. Thank you for the question representative. But the answer to two of those main questions.

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The first one is that when I was referring to Judaism the Jewish religion is based upon the

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Old Testament scriptures the law and the prophets. I am well aware there's no question that that the view that came later you're describing is not in the law and the prophets it's a

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Jewish tradition. That's just the point I want to make to that. The next point is that this particular bill says nothing towards the case that you're bringing up where your life is in danger.

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This bill is about equal protection for all human beings in the womb. It's about the preservation of life.

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If your life were in danger because of a pregnancy in very rare instances very infinitesimally

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I'm not just talking about physically emotionally psychologically. Those are exceptions to which allow a

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Jewish woman to have an abortion if they need one. If I may respond to that's a very good point. We wouldn't in our current justice system allow a woman who murders her six year old child by drowning him in the bathtub to get away with the argument.

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I was emotionally struggling. I didn't feel like I could care for this baby. You know that's not the same thing.

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I'm talking about things an unborn child compared to an unborn.

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Let me finish my question please. An unborn child versus a life in being which would be the mother.

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So so under your bill could I exercise my religious liberty if I felt along in consultation with my rabbi that I needed an abortion my doctor that I needed an abortion for survival whether that's physical survival or mental survival.

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And the point I was making to you is that the human being in the womb. This is this is something you can answer with a yes or no.

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Under my I'm trying hypothetical and your bill could I exercise my religious liberty.

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We don't believe that anybody has the right to with malice of forethought take the life of another human being on an unjustified manner.

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So equal protection for all humans means that no nobody can say to another human being I'm going to take your life with malice of forethought thought in an unjustified manner.

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OK so your answer is no I can't. If I believe that I can't kill your baby no. OK. OK.

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You can't kill your baby. Now let me get

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I'm. Somewhat distracted they're trying to move this out of the way. How would you put yourself in in Jeff's shoes there for just a second before we get to the.

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Critique. I'm sitting in a place like that with people from all sorts of different worldviews throwing questions at you and trying to be consistent praying the spirit of God will use that consistent testimony of the gospel to change hearts and minds and by the way my understanding is and I could be wrong about some of this.

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But I heard in some situation it might be this bill in in in Georgia.

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I'm not 100 percent certain but it was it was someone who had watched

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Jeff's testimony in Colorado from last year or the year before I forget which one it was but they had they were so convicted by his testimony as they saw it.

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They're in a completely different state but they were so convicted that they went to their representative and they brought this bill whether it was this one in Georgia or I don't remember what the context was but you know

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Colorado laughed Jeff off and you might go I don't think I'll ever do that again

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I mean you know you do all this traveling all this preparation you get mocked you get attacked and why would

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I even bother doing that again. Well because you never know God can use anything

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I mean I can't tell you how many times out at the

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Easter pageant and Mesa General Conference Salt Lake City witnessing to Mormons and the whole group of people you're talking to just walks away and be real easy to just stop right there and go we're wasting our time and yet what we discover is that there was somebody listening maybe in the group maybe over there.

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Weren't even letting them know that you were listening and they heard and years later that seed was just planted germinating came to life under the sovereign work of the spirit so you never know and that's why you keep testifying you keep speaking and so here's the situation and there's all these people coming from all these different directions.

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And. He just. Stays focus.

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Now what he did. Any misspoke once he said it was it was think

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I can I haven't asked him but because I left by time you got back but I haven't asked him.

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But my gut feeling is he was thinking of to knock. And Talmud came out stead but then he corrected that.

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To knock Torah never even cut to being a certain way of referring to what we call the Old Covenant Old Testament scriptures

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Hebrew scriptures. And what he's doing. Is he is saying.

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Your foundation allegedly. Is in divine revelation hello you need to understand something this woman is not a

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Talmudic Jew okay she doesn't she's not orthodox. Pride of the go to synagogue very often.

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This kind of Judaism is cultural. It's very liberal.

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Of. They're not concerned about so like that what they this kind of Judaism polls.

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As all leftist liberals do whatever they want out of. You know it's like how they treat the

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Constitution I like this I don't like that I like this so you can look you can look the Talmud you can look at all the commentaries that have come after the

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Talmud and you can find something here find something there and they just sort of. You know stick it all together and come up with whatever they want.

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Very very very common. In especially American Judaism.

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And hence this this massively wide spectrum. Of beliefs and that's why it's it's actually impossible to even talk about Judaism teaches what

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Judaism when in what context. You know we talk about Taniatic Judaism we talk about Second Temple Judaism.

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Well obviously Second Temple Judaism would be fundamentally different. Than even the

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Judaism that that formulated the Talmud centuries of past Jerusalem's fallen.

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Things have changed. But there's even been much more evolution.

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In the past thousand years. Than there was even at that point in time. So that's why when

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Judaism teaches us. That's like saying Christianity does and then you start talking about the

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Mormons. You start talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or you can even talk about well. Christianity teaches the

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Pope and the Orthodox are going no we don't. You've got to be much more specific.

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In your utilization of terminology. To really say anything meaningful at that point.

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So what Jeff is doing is he's saying you've got this you claim to have this foundation.

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And he's like this is a foundation that we are supposed to have in common. I believe.

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That the 39 books or if they counted as 22 minor prophets 1 etc. I believe those books are

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God breathed just as the apostles did just as Jews. They are God speaking there the

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Holy Spirit spoke through David saying etc. Etc. So. If we look at that not as he then said later when she pushed back.

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The later traditional developments which are what contradictory.

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To the foundation. They're contradictory to the inspired scriptures.

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Right we all still believe those 39 books that inspire scriptures right even though they're.

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Jews wrote them right. I'm sure there are some today that are getting ready to go full on Marcion and get rid of all that.

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But his his point is your position is self refuting it's inconsistent it's incoherent.

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The traditions that you're appealing to. Are contradictory. To the scriptures that you claim are foundational.

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To everything else. And that's that's where the problem is coming. And so he's reasoning presupposition he's trying to demonstrate to her.

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The incoherence and inconsistency. In the argument she's making because it's not.

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Obviously it is in the form of a question. But it's not really a question.

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It is an argument. And a thought out one as well. And so it's the idea where you're you're going to restrict my religious liberty.

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Was as Jeff points out well we already do. If you want to you know.

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Sacrifice your six year old. Um and this again demonstrates that the real argument here is.

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Well it's how old you are it's where you are it's position it's development. And you know

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Jeff is sat on university campuses and. Torn that argument apart forty seven thousand times he could do it sleep.

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He probably does do it in his sleep. Because he doesn't get a lot of sleep these days in fact it was so awesome.

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Um someone on Twitter when he posted this stuff on Twitter over the weekend.

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Some I'll try to be nice. Um somebody.

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Uh responded back to him insulted him used profanity. And said you bleep bleep bleep.

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Tell me how many how many children in danger of abortion have you adopted?

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And Jeff's just reply had one symbol in it three. Three and I can

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I can tell you. Right now very often we have a signal group no national secrets shared in it.

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Um but we have a signal group amongst the elders. And if you've got something you need to say that's going to take a while you.

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We normally do it by a voice text. And I can't tell you how many times when

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Jeff makes comment on something. You're going to hear in the background. One or more of those very small children.

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Uh that they have adopted. Um as a part of putting their money where their mouth is.

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And being consistent at this point. Um so you know my my thought.

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To anybody who's going to be dumb enough. As a Christian to criticize what

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Jeff is doing. You know and till you're in that position you might.

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Think about that before you make yourself look really really dumb. Um so he's arguing presuppositionally.

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He is demonstrating the incoherence of her worldview. The contradiction between the self -proclaimed foundation.

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And the traditions that she's actually holding to. Which are not connected to this foundation. Which means they have no foundation at all.

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She's being dishonest with herself and with everybody else. And so Jeff's like this is how this is how you respond to this.

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Now let me put this down here. And let me see if I can find this here.

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Oops. Uh there it is.

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Actually I'm figuring out how to do this. And let's see if that's gonna work.

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Look at that. Uh Rich is going yeah

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I can teach this guy. He'll figure it out eventually. So here is uh here's

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Joel Webben. And this was his comment on the clip that is played for you.

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With Jeff talking to this Jewish woman. According to this woman many other Jews abortion is a

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Jewish value. You cannot combat this evil by appealing to common ground that does not exist.

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Christians must become perfectly comfortable responding your Jewish values do not matter. Because Judaism is evil.

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Okay so notice you cannot combat this evil by appealing to common ground that does not exist. Now did

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Jeff do that? Well he said we we share the

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Jewish scriptures. And he then went to the Jewish scriptures to demonstrate no partiality.

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Protection of human life. And hence that's in contradiction with the later tradition.

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And so he's not he's not talking about doesn't Jeff does not believe that we have neutral common ground with unbelievers.

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He said that a thousand times. He wasn't saying that then. Instead he has a matter of moments to respond to a modern leftist

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Jewish woman. Who has decided she can pick and choose her particular tradition that she's going to run with.

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And so he appeals to the scriptures. Knowing that and she did not you'll notice she did not reject the authority of the

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Tanakh. So it's like okay you accept that as religiously binding.

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Well here's what it says. And so he's reasoning presuppositionally arguing presupposition.

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And so I just want to ask everybody. What do you think which which perspective do you think would be more effective in the situation that Jeff is in?

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He wants he obviously wants this bill to come up for a vote.

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And we'll keep pushing this session after session. We're making advancement.

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People are hearing they're understanding how the pro -life movement has doesn't want to abolish abortion.

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And so we're making progress. And he knows other committee members are listening.

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And they want to know how to respond to this too. Which is the most effective response to a

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Jewish representative? Jeff's holding her to her own professed acceptance of the

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Tanakh as binding religious authority from God. And his overarching assertion we all believe that there is an ultimate authority over us.

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Well the secularists might go I'm not so sure about that. Even she might reject that.

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But he's forcing people to think that through. And to realize you need to have an ultimate epistemological standard.

39:36

And he's already said in his opening statement God has made life. God will hold us accountable.

39:43

And so which could be more effective to counter her demonstrate the inconsistency in her own worldview the internal critique.

39:56

Speak to the others because there's let's hope there's at least one or two Christians on that committee.

40:02

Maybe others that are willing to listen haven't heard this before that are going wow

40:09

I had thought that through that you know up till now her objection would have been pretty strong.

40:15

But that's a great response. Or do the weapon method.

40:21

Your Jewish values do not matter because Judaism is evil. What do you think?

40:30

What do you think? I I know what I would suggest. You know

40:42

I've never done a debate with a Muslim. Where I just skipped the argumentation and just went to I your

40:54

Jewish values do not matter because Islam is evil. I know

41:01

I guess there might be some people who think that's some kind of apologetic approach. It's not.

41:09

But there might be some people who might think that way. And so like I said

41:17

Joel once said. The only reason Joe Booth and I were invited to speak was because hey we're.

41:25

Theonomists post -millennialists. We're presuppositionalists. And Joe and I still are and Joel I don't think is.

41:34

Not functionally. And I don't think he's going to stay that way confessionally. And in fact given that recent church history thing he has no reason to be a

41:44

Baptist. At all. So.

41:51

Yeah. But as soon as I saw that I was like you know what. I really.

41:57

I really want to respond to that. So. Rich I don't have signal up or anything.

42:05

But and I haven't received anything. Are we along pretty good here because I still have a bunch of stuff to get to and I.

42:13

I just don't know. How long I can go. I'm assuming things are still working fairly well.

42:21

And so we can I can press forward this. I had a bunch of screenshots

42:26

I wanted to get to. From.

42:34

Stephen Wolfe. And so I'm not going to bother full screening this.

42:41

Coming through great. Okay all right. But. There were a number of.

42:51

Stephen Wolfe likes to mock the term sacralism. Unfortunately. It also.

42:58

He also demonstrates he doesn't understand. Sacralism he hasn't. He hasn't read.

43:06

Verdine I specifically challenged him on that recently. And. So here's a couple couple screenshots here

43:14

I'll pull up. So notice over on the right. The coffee was so good this morning that I took a sip and shouted sacralism.

43:24

Yeah. That's what I do and I drink coffee too because I hate coffee. But then notice.

43:33

Next to that right here I need to sort of move it over a little bit. So I can see a little better.

43:39

He says I don't give sacralism a deeply thoughtful response. Yep there you go that's true.

43:45

I've never seen a deeply thoughtful response from Stephen Wolfe on sacralism. And I won't.

43:52

Because I don't think it deserves it. Well think about it. He doesn't know anything about it. He's not read any primary stuff.

43:59

But he's come to the conclusion it doesn't deserve it. So hey let's not worry about. It is a new term trying to capture several very different political theologies.

44:09

No it's. If you want to call it new in you know Verdine's use whatever.

44:16

That's fine there's all sorts. Think just think today how many new terms are being used.

44:22

How many new terms are these guys using. How many terms are Stephen Wolfe using. So that's not really much of an argument.

44:29

But it's not political theologies. It's how theology has been captured by political power.

44:37

Starting with Constantine and developing slowly over time with the help.

44:43

In fits and starts of Christian theologians down through the ages.

44:50

When Unum Sanctum is linked with simply banning atheism. I don't see the use.

44:56

Well Unum Sanctum if you're not familiar with it. Made the ultimate claim that you have to be in submission.

45:04

The Bishop of Rome to experience salvation. Now it says other things.

45:09

But it was really at the height of that period of papal development. But when he says

45:16

I don't see the use. Remember this same guy who can't see the incredibly usefulness of the term worldview.

45:24

In a day when there's all sorts of worldviews. So I treat it as a rhetorical device rather than a useful term in intellectual discussion.

45:31

Well do forgive us who are not nearly on your high altar of intellectual level.

45:40

So playbook. Describe a few acts of violence in church history. Call all that sacralism. Call your opponent sacralist. That's pure demonstration of the man of a man who is willing to opine about something.

45:50

About which he is absolutely positively completely and willfully ignorant. Has no idea what he's talking about and is proud of it.

45:59

Is happy about it. And there's lots of people who go. Yeah that's what I want to do where that's that's good stuff.

46:06

Yeah super duper. All right so there were some others here.

46:12

But I made the statement. Let me just look at just real quickly here.

46:18

Just a second. Yeah just real quickly.

46:28

Remember that for Stephen Wolfe the term revivalism is what he uses to.

46:39

Here you go. Um revivalist post -millennialism is another expression of the conservative trying to escape politics.

46:49

And what is what is revivalist post -millennialism? Well again I guess he gets to define all these things rather than those of us who actually believe these things.

46:59

But revivalist post -millennialism is the Puritan hope. If you read the Puritans you know the people who started all those

47:06

Ivy League schools and stuff like that to train ministers of the gospel. Because they believed that Christ would you know bring the nations to heal.

47:16

It's the idea that the only way that the fulfillment of scripture.

47:25

Every knee will bow all enemies put under his feet. Psalm 2,

47:30

Psalm 110, et cetera, et cetera. The only way for that to be fulfilled is for a revival.

47:39

Not a revival in the sense that we're used to it in the West. But a worldwide work of the

47:46

Spirit of God drawing the elect unto himself. In a way that we've never seen in history.

47:56

That's post -millennial revivalism. Revivalist post -millennialism is another expression of the conservative trying to escape politics.

48:04

Has nothing to do with it. This man is so confused it is astonishing. It truly is.

48:12

But let me ask a question. Let's think about for a second. What if the

48:19

Spirit of God moved? Breaking men's hearts, bringing conviction of sin, directing them to Jesus Christ.

48:27

Not just in an external sense.

48:33

But true long -lasting conversion of a majority of people all across the world.

48:42

What would that do to politics? Change everything, wouldn't it?

48:48

Radically so. Because now these people want to hear the voice of Christ. They want to be in submission to him.

48:57

They want their government to be under submission to him. Not the other way around where the government puts them under submission to these laws.

49:05

They want these laws. They seek after God's Torah is how Isaiah puts it.

49:12

Would that change politics? Of course. And I think I almost get the feeling he fears that what it would do is it would make politics completely subject to theology.

49:27

Which it would, actually, if you think about it. All right. Want to get that one out there, too.

49:36

So I'm not going to be on this for a long period of time. You know,

49:42

I might actually finish up on time. But we'll see how long this one goes.

49:48

If I can find where in the world I put it. Did you see this?

49:59

I will do the Jay Dyer thing. I'm not sure why I did that. Did you see this?

50:05

The British Sentencing Council has decided that starting Tuesday, white men will be sentenced to longer prison sentences than women and ethnic minorities.

50:17

The speed at which that beautiful nation that I have had such wonderful times in, the speed with which it has fallen, just simply come apart, is...

50:39

Wow. It could happen just as fast here, too. Have to pray for God's mercy.

50:46

All right. I made the statement. There it is. I made the statement on Twitter that, yeah, okay.

50:57

This thing had been sent to me by a couple different people. This is evidently one of the means by which

51:13

Jay Dyer makes money. As I look at it, there's...

51:25

I don't know what the scan thing is. Jay Dyer has never understood that you need to have light coming on your face.

51:36

His videos are the lowest of the low as far as technology is concerned.

51:42

Just wow. I mean, I sort of fight with Rich about it doesn't have to be perfect. He wants it to be absolutely perfect.

51:50

I just want it to be something I can put up and take down and then get to lunch or dinner or whatever it is I'm doing. But I mean, he's got this flamingo and a palm tree behind his head and it's lit up.

52:04

So his face is dark and he's sitting there in a t -shirt and he just looks like he's bored.

52:15

He's angry. He's condescending. He's arrogant. He's mean -spirited. I don't know why anybody would even spend time with this man.

52:22

I mean, wow. It's just amazing. So what's happened is somebody has told this guy who doesn't know who

52:32

Jay Dyer is, has no idea what he's getting himself into, to come into this thing.

52:40

And this is what Jay Dyer thinks debating is. Jay Dyer thinks he's debating.

52:47

A debate for Jay Dyer is something he is in control of. His victory is assumed from the start.

52:56

And once it gets to a point where he's tired of talking to you, he's just going to kick you off and go to somebody else.

53:04

So he's going to win all the time. It's just, it really is fourth -grade, fourth -grade playground level immaturity on this guy's part.

53:16

I am astonished. Why don't I see the mature

53:23

Eastern Orthodox people going, Oh, no, no, no, no, whoa, that guy, no.

53:30

But like I said, that's not what I see. It's shame. This guy calls in, somehow gets on, and is talking to him about justification.

53:44

It's an 11 -minute clip. I just want to play a few minutes of it. I just, first of all, to give you a sense of what this guy's about.

53:52

Because this guy's trying to look at the scriptures. And, you know, right at the beginning, he's like,

54:00

Oh, your position is stupid because your position is nominalism. And nobody believed in nominalism back then.

54:06

And therefore, it can't possibly be what the apostles are saying. And not dealing with scripture.

54:12

It's just all this external stuff because Jay Dyer's an expert at everything. At least according to Jay Dyer.

54:19

That's obvious. But let's listen to some of this.

54:25

And then we'll take a few moments, look at Romans 4, make a couple points, and wrap things up.

54:33

By the way, before we do this, in case I forget, might be able to do something

54:40

Thursday? Probably not. But if I can't, then we will be posting the link.

54:51

And the debate will be live streamed on Friday. So that's at least two and a half, close to three hours on Friday of live content.

55:02

So keep that in mind. So let's switch over here and just catch a little piece of this here.

55:13

Oh, but he's not saved yet. Well, when was he declared righteous by God?

55:22

You tell me. When does the Bible say that he was declared righteous by God? Now, do you see him?

55:29

Did you see that there? I mean, this is spirit born patience.

55:40

Flowing from our orthodox champion, as you'll see here in a moment. Now the guy's good.

55:46

So what had happened just before this, I thought it was queued up a little before this.

55:52

Jay Dyer's saying, look at all the stuff that Abraham did before Genesis 15. But he wasn't saved yet.

56:01

Now, maybe he can get away with this guy, I suppose. But this is probably why he won't do real debates.

56:07

He won't debate real people with equal time where he can't pull the plug and he can't behave like a child.

56:15

Um, is because the actual assertion, like if he had read the

56:22

God who justifies, which I'm sure he has not. Then he would know that when we're talking about Genesis 15, we're talking about in Romans four.

56:32

Is when Abraham believes what? A specific promise given to him in covenantal form in Genesis 15.

56:45

Abraham has believed in God. He's even obeyed God. But the issue is, when does

56:53

Abraham believe unto righteousness? Paul's answer is

56:59

Genesis 15. Jay Dyer's answer is not Genesis 15. Rome's answer is not Genesis 15.

57:06

And that's the issue. It's Paul against Rome and orthodoxy.

57:14

So watch, watch what happens. When did it counter it for right? I'm showing the stupidity of your interpretation of Romans.

57:21

Okay, that's an assertion. That's an assertion that you're making. You're not really backing it up, though. So I'm backing it up by the fact that shut up, shut up, shut up, or you're gone.

57:32

Inverse. See, that's how this is what he thinks of debate is. Shut up or you're gone.

57:39

I'm in control. See, I am so cool. I am so smart.

57:47

And if you don't shut up, I'll get rid of you. Me with my,

57:53

I can't figure out what lighting is behind me. Okay. In verses seven and eight, he worships the

58:00

Lord. God obviously accepts this worship. He acts in faith for the next several chapters until Genesis 15.

58:10

Okay, so there's the argument. He had to have been justified back then, right?

58:16

That's the argument that Jay Dyer is making. I'm going to demonstrate to you again. His argument is against Paul.

58:24

His argument is based on tradition. But just notice the nasty, arrogant presentation that he's making.

58:36

Does he really think this is attractive to people? I, I don't know.

58:42

His theology doesn't let him go, well, the spirit of God will take care of it. So this refutes your stupid argument that he was saved in 15.

58:51

So Romans four doesn't teach the Protestant view. It's just your assumption that it taught the Protestant view.

58:56

Okay, let me ask you this. Now you're going to change the subject. I am not. I am not going to change the subject.

59:03

I'm trying. So was he not saved for three chapters of good works? Can I ask a question? Was he not saved?

59:10

No, because it doesn't say he was declared. Okay, so yeah, you're an idiot. Okay, and it just goes, so you're an idiot.

59:20

I am stunned that I took this guy seriously. Obviously, I had not, you know, maybe he was more serious in the past.

59:27

Now, obviously, he's just, you know, he's just completely out to lunch. And it's a sad thing to watch.

59:34

But it also bothers me to divine truth being so slaughtered by someone that's so disrespectful to it or things like that.

59:54

So I just realized I could put the Bible up here too, huh? Oh, yes, I can. I didn't even thought about doing that.

01:00:02

But let's just for a second. It's just now one hour, just a couple of minutes.

01:00:13

I know we've done this before. I get it. Algo could do this with his eyes closed.

01:00:22

But let's just look at this for a second, okay? What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather of the flesh, was found?

01:00:33

Or if Abraham is justified by works, he has said the most about, but not before God. For what does scripture say? Abraham believed

01:00:39

God and was counted him as righteous. Genesis 15, 6. Okay, Genesis 15, 6, the second most cited text from the

01:00:47

Old Testament in the New Testament. And then we have this, as I've said many, many times, if we put verses 4 and 5 in parallel to one another, you'll see to the working one here and to the not working one in verse 5.

01:01:06

So to the working one, the wage is not reckoned or imputed according to grace or as something is free, but according to what is owed.

01:01:22

So your wage to the one working is owed. These are all standard terms found in the papyri at this time of employment, debt, contracts, stuff like that.

01:01:35

But to the not working, but believing.

01:01:41

So this is the contrast term. So the not working isn't, that's not just where it stops, it's not just not working one, but believing one.

01:01:53

Believing upon what? The one justifying the ungodly.

01:02:03

That is such a startling statement that Joseph Smith negated it in his

01:02:10

Joseph Smith translation. The God who does not justify the ungodly. Hey, piss this out too.

01:02:15

His faith, laginzatai, is reckoned aistikaiosune, aistikaiosune, as righteousness.

01:02:26

And then he gives as his foundational argument from Psalm 32, just as also

01:02:32

David speaks concerning the makrisman, the blessing, of the man to whom

01:02:44

God reckons righteousness, without works, not works of law, but apart from works.

01:02:53

That's the attitude of verses 4 and 5. The person is not expecting anything, does not believe there's any merit in what the person is doing.

01:03:03

But then the text cited does not talk about imputation of righteousness, does it?

01:03:13

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

01:03:19

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. So the

01:03:26

Psalm 32 citation from the Greek Septuagint, 31 in the Septuagint, but anyway, is in the context of the non -imputation of sin.

01:03:37

The only way that sin can be non -imputed to the one who commits sin is if it's imputed to the sin bearer.

01:03:44

So Jesus takes our sin and his body upon the cross, his righteousness is imputed to us, and therefore you have the blessed man.

01:03:52

Every single true believer in Jesus Christ is a blessed man of Romans 4, to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

01:03:59

That's the glorious truth. But here is the refutation of J. Dyer. This is why

01:04:05

J. Dyer would have to cut me off early on, because he can't answer this one.

01:04:12

All he can do is bluster and do everything else. Now, therefore, is this blessing upon the circumcised or upon the uncircumcised?

01:04:31

For we say it was reckoned to Abraham, his faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.

01:04:39

How, therefore, was it reckoned? While being circumcised or while being uncircumcised?

01:04:52

Not while circumcised, but uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal, the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so he might be the father of all who believe, whether circumcised or uncircumcised.

01:05:12

So here's the point. If you say, as J.

01:05:20

Dyer did, while calling people idiots and stupid and all the rest of this kind of stuff, if you say that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 for chapters beforehand, which is what he was saying, we heard him saying it, right?

01:05:44

Yeah. If you say that, Paul's point is refuted, right?

01:05:55

Because Paul places a specific temporal location to Abraham's justification, and it's before receiving the sign of circumcision, right?

01:06:16

Because see, people like Roberts and Genesis, they will say Abraham was justified multiple times in his life.

01:06:22

He was justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 22, Isaac, so on and so forth.

01:06:28

Paul's whole point is that the faith of Abraham, and this is how

01:06:34

Abraham becomes the father of all the faithful, whether circumcised or uncircumcised, is that he believed the covenant promise of God in Genesis 15, 6, and as a result of that belief, before receiving circumcision, the covenant promise not given before, as it's given in Genesis 15, here's where he believes, here's where he receives righteousness, the non -imputation of sin, read verses 6, 7 and 8.

01:07:11

So it happened at a point in time, not in Genesis 22, not in Genesis 12. It's in Genesis 15.

01:07:18

You have the covenant promise, you have the covenant being made, Abraham exercises faith, he receives righteousness.

01:07:29

So trying to drag on to, well, was he shaved? That's not terminology of Genesis. That's not even terminology of Paul, which makes me wonder just, you know, how much did

01:07:40

Dyer even understand him? Because he's been different perspectives. But people can be of lots of different perspectives and not accurately represent what in the world they were talking about before.

01:07:56

So, you know, I don't know who this guy was that called in. I'm sure he was not overly impressed. Even if he didn't have answers for everything that he said, he couldn't possibly be overly impressed with the kind of behavior that J.

01:08:10

Dyer cannot escape, evidently. Just doesn't have the maturity to escape. So, yeah, there you go.

01:08:19

So hopefully that's useful for somebody to consider and for you to share with other people, because it is an important issue to be able to discuss.

01:08:32

Hey, I can't tell you how excited I am about how well this worked.

01:08:38

And one of the reasons is, Rich, there's a rat's nest of cables over there.

01:08:49

And Rich informs me that what is over there is also underneath the table in the main dividing line studio.

01:08:58

I don't know if that means there's another rat's nest in the big studio, too. I don't know.

01:09:04

But he put it all together. He spent hours in here. Because what would throw me off before was

01:09:12

I'd have to have the TV remote and this thing here and pressing buttons over here.

01:09:20

And, you know, I start talking and my microphone wasn't on. And it made it difficult to do.

01:09:29

First run through. And I don't think my microphone was left off. I was able to hear without messing with the

01:09:38

TV. And hopefully the sound was good and I could put stuff up.

01:09:45

And now I'm dangerous. Now I am very, very dangerous.

01:09:53

So I might try the next time having my other monitor and putting that one up there so that things could just be there and I'm not having to drag stuff up.

01:10:07

That would be the next step of advancement. Until what?

01:10:15

I don't know. But there you go. So there you go. That's, like I said, if I can sneak something in, let me see here.

01:10:26

No, that's not happening. Nope, not happening. Um, no, it's just get used to it.

01:10:36

It's good. We're fine. We're all fine here now. So he wants me to put this microphone on my shirt.

01:10:43

If I'm wearing certain kinds of shirts, heavier shirts that don't sag because there's like that, you know,

01:10:49

I did that a couple of times when I was in the hotels and stuff like that. But it's on a perfectly nice stand right here.

01:10:56

You know, it's right there. And it's it's perfectly good. It's just fine.

01:11:02

Don't need to be messing with everything else. So got it.

01:11:08

Got to keep him always wanting something more. Can't just do everything he wants to do. I have to have a little rebellious streak.

01:11:16

So Friday, I think it's 630. We'll post the link. Hopefully throw it in the app as well for the live debate on the

01:11:27

King James issue coming up this this Friday. Looking forward to that. Been doing a lot of studying and I.

01:11:36

I've learned a lot this week, actually, the past couple of weeks. If I ever if I ever do an updated version of the book, another edition or redo it.

01:11:49

Picked up a lot of a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff. Yes, and as as rich has to pay the bills, travel fund at AOMN .org

01:12:01

is how we pay for this RV park I'm in right now, which it's it's the the people are nice and it's everything works, though.

01:12:11

When I was setting up, I was looking across and there's a unit over there.

01:12:17

You know, there's a car parked out front with flat tires. So I get the feeling they've been here.

01:12:25

Wow. I'm not really sure. But anyway. But yes, that's how we pay for the that green gold that I pour into the tank of my 32 gallon diesel tank.

01:12:39

I got pretty low on that one today at one point, but I got where I needed to go. And so if you want to help us continue to do that kind of thing, travel fund

01:12:48

AOMN .org will help us to do that. And Lord willing, we'll definitely see you on Friday for the live debate.