June 15, 2026 Show with William F. Hill on “Why One Presbyterian Pastor Said ‘Goodbye’ to the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 15th day of June 2026.

Before I introduce my guest for the day and our topic, I want to remind everybody that next week, Thursday and Friday of next week, we are going to be having a two-day debate on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We have two men returning to debate each other. These debaters will be Jared K. Henry, who is a Nazarene pastor. He's debated Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist, on two previous occasions. This will be their third debate on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio together.

And I've already just told you who the other debater is, Jeremiah Nortier, who is a Reformed Baptist. They will be debating on the theme, Can True Believers Lose Their Salvation? And obviously, for anyone who knows anything about the theologies of various prominent denominations, you likely already guessed that Jared K. Henry, the Nazarene, believes that true believers can lose their salvation and do.

And we have Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, who believes in the perseverance and preservation of the saints and therefore does not believe true believers can ever lose their salvation. Although many who profess to be Christians are false converts and will sadly eventually be in hell, but they are not true believers.

So please mark your calendars for the 25th and 26th of June, which is next Thursday and Friday. I'm looking forward to this debate. And today I have an old friend returning to the program. His name is William F. Hill.

He is pastor of Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville, Indiana. And he's going to be addressing, Why One Presbyterian Pastor Said Goodbye to the Presbyterian Church in America, also known as the PCA.

And we'll be introducing the Fellowship of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches, also known as FRPC. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor William Hill.

Thanks, Chris. Good to be here. Yes. And I can still vividly remember the day, or should I say the night, I met you. I was at a Banner of Truth conference at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania, and I got lost on the campus there during a break.

It was pitch black. I'm wandering around, and I was able to find my way to civilization by following the smell of pipes and cigars. And I followed that fragrance to a porch where several brethren were enjoying their pipes and cigars.

I was introducing myself to everyone there, and then from behind me, a voice said, Why don't you interview me on your show? And that was you. That's great. I remember that. And I eventually did interview you.

Well, tell our listeners something about Providence Presbyterian Church of Evansville, Indiana. Sure. So I was called to be the pastor here in Evansville, Indiana in the fall of 2020, that year that many of us would like to just forget ever existed.

But anyway, so I've been at Providence in Evansville for the last five and a half years. When I came to Providence, it was a part of the Presbyterian Church in America. It has since left us. We'll talk about more, I assume, in a few minutes.

But it has since withdrawn from the PCA and is currently in an independent status, having done a brief stint with Vanguard Presbyterian Church. We're a small to medium-sized congregation, very historically rooted in the Reformed tradition.

Our worship service is guided by the regulative principle, as we find in the Confession of Faith, Chapter 21. We may be a little odd having the name Presbyterian and being independent at the same time.

I know that's kind of an oxymoron, but we're not the only church that's done that. But with that said, we still govern ourselves in a Presbyterian fashion. We're elder rule. So I have elders that help me govern and lead and shepherd the church.

Our focus is very much on the preaching of God's Word and ministering to the saints here through various means, shepherding them, house visits. We have shepherding groups twice a month where the elders meet with their charges.

So each member is assigned a ruling elder, and they meet together as a group on the Lord's Day afternoon. And they go through a study together and pray together and sing psalms, hymns, and have a meal together.

So it's a great time for them to get to know each other in that scenario, in that setting. We worship each Lord's Day at 1030 in the morning, and we have prayer meeting Wednesday evenings at six o 'clock.

That's preceded by a meal at 530, which is a great time, again, to fellowship and just sitting around the table talking with each other and interacting with one another's lives in the raw. So it's good.

It's a good scenario. But we are, like I said, a small-to-medium-sized church. We're unique in Evansville, as far as I know. There are some, one or two churches, I think, that would fall into the Reformed camp, whether Reformed Baptist or otherwise.

But we were the first PCA church here, distinctly Presbyterian, and I think that's still the case, frankly, in this city—a city of about 115 ,000 people. The county has about 180 ,000. So there's lots of opportunity here, I would say.

The opportunities to advance the kingdom and the gospel here is present. We of course are facing the same kinds of challenges that most churches of the Presbyterian and Reformed persuasion tend to face, and that is we have a very large megachurch in town that has every program under the sun.

We can't compete with that, nor am I trying to. So there are challenges, but be that as it may, there's a lot of opportunities, too. Well, if anybody lives in the Evansville, Indiana area, or you have family, friends, and loved ones who do live in that area, or if you're going to be traveling through that area on vacation or for business or for some other reason, their website is providencechurched .org.

I'm sorry, it's providencechurchevv .com, right? That's right. E-V-V is the airport designator for the—so E-V-V, Evansville. Yes, providencechurchevv .com. And we'll be repeating that later on in the program.

I'm sure that native Indianans are detecting that my guest does not have a native Indiana voice or accent. He is a New Yorker, although not from the five boroughs or Long Island. I believe you're from Rochester, right?

Yes, sir. That's right. And I believe a diehard Yankee fan, if I'm not mentioned. If I'm not mistaken. I am. Yes. You're a Yankee fan, also. Yes, absolutely. So there are still those New York connections.

The PCA, Revoice, and Women Deacons

Well, we're talking about a very sensitive issue today, and my intention is not to upset some of my dear brothers in Christ who are pastors or members in the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, or the Vanguard Presbytery that we'll be discussing also in a moment.

But I think that when areas of truth are being blurred or denied by some brethren who make up an element of any group, denomination, brotherhood, fellowship, they should be talked about openly in public.

I know very well, as my guest knows, that the PCA, for instance, is a very large tent or umbrella. There's nobody in leadership in that denomination that I'm aware of that is denying essential salvific truth.

But unlike what most people think, salvific truth isn't the only truth that matters. Theology does matter, and even things that are non-salvific, when denied or distorted, they can lead to damning errors that are salvific issues.

But tell us about when you first started to feel uncomfortable as a pastor in the PCA, when you started to realize, well, there are differences held in this group that are way out of the orbit that I live in, and work, and worship in, and perhaps took you by surprise at some point.

Yeah. Well, let me start, if you don't mind, Chris, I'm going to start all the way back in the beginning when I first came to the PCA, so it's kind of a humorous story. Maybe your listeners will get a chuckle or two out of this.

I was very green when it came to Presby—I was living in New York. My first Presbyterian church was an Orthodox Presbyterian church. I knew nothing about Presbyterianism by and large. I just knew that I was a Calvinist.

I had just been introduced to the doctrines of grace, so I was one of those guys that probably should have been locked up for a season. So I was obsessed with the doctrines of grace and tried to convince everybody around me that they needed to be just as obsessed about it as I was.

But anyway, as a result, I began to seek out various Puritan writings, and I was reading very widely from our fathers in the faith and decided that we need to jump in both feet into the Presbyterian world, so we sought out an Orthodox Presbyterian church.

There was no PCA church in Rochester at the time, and it wouldn't have made any difference because I didn't know there was a difference. So we joined the OPC church, and then in God's providence, we moved to Virginia.

This is 1988. We moved to Virginia, and of course, I'm still looking for a Presbyterian church, so I get the yellow pages out. That tells you how long ago it was. And I'm looking for Orthodox Presbyterian church, and there wasn't any.

So I was concerned, putting it mildly. He called a friend of mine in New York, and I said, hey, I got a problem. I can't find an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Virginia. And he said, well, is there a PCA church?

And of course, my response was, PCA, what's that? He said, well, that's another Presbyterian church. I said, no, wait a minute. I'm confused. I thought there were only two, the Orthodox Presbyterian church, good, and the PCUSA, bad.

And of course, he laughed at me, and he said, oh, dear Bill, there's plenty of them. So that is how, in God's providence, I ended up in the PCA. I began to have some concerns, just in general, because the first church that we joined was very much ensnared in the Sonship movement.

Don't want to get into all the ins and outs of that right now. People can Google it if they want to. But it was very Grace Boy driven, and to the point where the law itself, the moral law, was almost of no effect.

We survived that for about a year, and then we ended up at Calvary Reformed Presbyterian Church in Hampton, Virginia. Pete Hurst was the senior pastor, Byron Snaft was the associate pastor, both men very godly men, where we stayed for 10 years.

And that's where I really began to learn about Reformed theology, its practice, as well as its doctrines, and really cut my teeth under those men. We eventually transferred to a church that was right around the corner from my house, but I didn't know it, Emanuel Presbyterian Church in Norfolk, Virginia.

Bill Harrell was the pastor at the time, he's now retired, and it's there that I was sent to seminary. So I've been in the PCA for, well, I was in the PCA for 20, let's see, when did we leave, 2024. So I was in the PCA 26 years.

So I've been through many of the issues, the controversies, the difficulties that the PCA has seen. And I think where I began to have more, have concerns that elevated to, look, every denomination is going to have troubles, right?

I mean, let's just be, you know, candid about that. There's no perfect denomination out there, the PCA isn't perfect, the OPC is not perfect, none of them are perfect. Got a bunch of sinners in the thing, it's bound to have problems.

But there are issues, some issues that are worthy of determining a person's action and whether or not they can actually live with that. And it began to manifest itself during the entire revoice debacle when we had the whole Side B gay Christianity mess that was circulating through the PCA.

And just to be more clear with the audience about what that is, that is a phenomenon where people who identify themselves as gay, as homosexual, are teaching that that is an acceptable state of being as a Christian as long as you do not bring those desires and those attractions to fruition in a physical union.

And they will also claim that lusting for anyone, including someone of your own gender, is sin. But I have witnessed with my own eyes at a debate that I organized between my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. Gregory Coles, who is such a person in that Side B Christianity group, he made it clear that he was redefining what lust means.

Go ahead. Yeah, so that was, you're right, what you said is the issue. And what made it worse was that we had ministers in the PCA that were identifying publicly in this manner, but yet at the same time saying that there's no disqualifying factor because the desire itself is not the sin, it's only the behavior.

Of course, then we get into the whole doctrine of concupiscence and the Roman Catholic position and that becomes really messy. But be that as it may, that's when I began to have very serious concerns of whether or not I could function faithfully within this communion.

The issue of women ordination was always there. I think going back even way before revoice, that's something that the progressive wing of the PCA has been trying to get through for a long time. And they believe emphatically that women should be ordained as deacons.

I believe emphatically the Bible prohibits that. So, you know, we disagree, obviously, on that point. And the PCA, to their credit, has put down any effort of the progressive wing to accomplish that. So that was always there.

That was kind of an undercurrent that was flowing throughout for many years. And I have always told myself that if the PCA ever does get to the point where it does ordain women deacons, then that's a red line for me.

And maybe this is a point of application I can just offer to ministers out there. I've been doing this. I've been a pastor at 11 years. I was a ruling elder for two and a half. So I have a little bit of experience.

In some people's eyes, I'm still a rookie, and that's fine. But I would say that it's an important thing to know as a pastor what your red lines are. What things are you willing to put up with and what things are you not willing to put up with, which would cause you to have to break communion with a particular body.

So I had always said that if the PCA ever does get to the point where they ordain women deacons or, worse, elders, then that's a red line. I'm done. But Reboys popped up seemingly out of nowhere. And what I think what frustrated me and caused me a lot of concern was just how slow the denomination reacted to it.

Now, look, I'm fully aware of the fact that Presbyterianism doesn't move very quickly. I get it. And as a Yankee, that usually drives me crazy. But that said, it was way too slow. It was over five years of constant battling with this issue and some of the players involved.

And instead of putting down this issue as a gross violation of our larger catechism, of our confession of faith, the scriptures, and just denouncing this thing and moving on, we played with it too long to the point where it became very entrenched.

And I hate to tell people, I have many friends still in the PCA, they're dear friends and I love them. But I think if they were on this program today, they would agree with me that the problem is still there.

The fact that the General Assembly finally addressed it in a way that was definitive doesn't change the fact that it's entrenched because, in my opinion, the denomination waited way too long to do what they should have done up front.

So that was the first issue that began to get my attention. And frankly, I think that was pretty much the major issue. Now, there are some sub factors that played along with my decision to leave. Some of those are, well, mainly has really nothing to do with the denomination itself as far as what the denomination holds, but it had much to do with my involvement with my own presbytery.

So there was both personal and theological issues involved in my decision. But when I came to Providence, and so I came to Providence right in the middle of the whole revoice bus, right? So I was already out the door.

I had one foot out the door, but I was called the pastor of the church at Providence. It was a PCA congregation. And as a pastor, sometimes, you know, your decisions are made for you based on the needs of the church and not necessarily your own need.

And so I was willing to work as hard as I could within the bounds of the denomination, serve on committees, overtures at General Assembly, attend presbytery meetings, be very involved for the sake of the congregation that was in the PCA.

I wasn't prepared to drag them out just because I wanted to leave. And so I did. I stayed throughout that period, but always in the back of my head. And if my wife were here, she would probably laugh because we would have many conversations in our living room about how much more I can stand putting up with this constant tension.

And as I finally got to the place where I just concluded that I just want to pastor my church and I don't want to be involved in every controversy that comes down into the denomination. And that's pretty much where it is now, in my opinion.

This year's General Assembly, I think you have to look it up, but I know it's in the 80s. So there's 80 some odd overtures that have been sent up to the General Assembly to be addressed this year to either change, amend, do something to the book of church order.

Some of those overtures are horrible, in my view. Some are seeking to ordain women deacons. I don't believe it'll pass. But fact remains, 80 some odd overtures, which keep ministers of the gospel very busy doing things that, frankly, I'm not convinced the Lord wants us to be spending all of our energy doing all the time.

And so I've turned a big corner and realized that really the power vested in the local church is the important issue. And it is there that the ministry of Christ and his kingdom is done. Now, I'm not against being Presbyterian.

I'm not against Presbyterians. I believe it's necessary. I think accountability is very important. Connectedness is very important. But at the end of the day, I don't think my church cares that I spend 20 hours a week worrying about denominational politics.

You reach a point where you just want to pastor your church, you want to preach the gospel, you want to minister to your people, and you want to be distracted by all this other stuff. And that's where I got to, leading right up to the event that actually pushed me out the door.

So there you go. Now, when it comes to the aforementioned revoice issue, where there were active members, ordained men in the PCA supporting the ideology that you can be and identify yourself as a gay person who is a Christian and is remaining sexually chaste.

But the idea of being gay can be a very strong and public aspect of your identity. In fact, Gregory Coles, in his debate with James White, called it a gift from God because it freed him and prevented him from the sexual lust toward females, which are society is bombarded with in imagery and especially in the media.

And that was an absurd argument because it's just as much bombarded with the imagery of half-naked men, you know. So I'm not even sure what his argument was really coming from. But what I was getting to was some will defend the PCA by saying, hey, we won the conservatives, the Bible believers won that debate, that vote, and therefore that's not an issue anymore.

But aren't people that supported that still in leadership in the PCA? Did everyone who supported that leave? Yeah, no, I mean, to me, that's part of the issue because of the slowness in response to this.

I mean, some issues need a swift. Again, this is my opinion. I know some people are going to disagree. That's fine. I'm fine with disagreement, but some issues need a swift response. This one was one of them.

Federal Vision was another. There needs to be a decisive statement made by the church that this is wrong, this is beyond the pale, it's outside of our doctrines, it needs to be put down. It's a rebellion and needs to be put down.

Playing with it, fooling around with it, trying to nuance it to death, letting it run its course, allowing the ministers to do radio interviews and advocate their positions, and then doing that, they sully and influence the minds of other people.

And it's a cancer and it grows. And that's what cancer does. The only way to kill cancer is to cut it out. So to answer your question, yes, there are still men. I was in the General Assembly meeting. I'm trying to remember where I was.

I think it was Dallas. I don't remember. So don't quote me on it. But I know that there were at least two men that got up and the microphone on the floor of the General Assembly in front of a thousand officers of Christ Church and said rather proudly that they were side B, that they were homosexual, but not practicing men.

And a third, if not more, of the room clapped in favor. Now, look, I certainly didn't. I felt the oxygen leave the room. And actually, I was afraid that we were going to get hit by lightning. But that, you know, it was just it was a bellwether moment for me to see that this is happening.

And there doesn't seem to be a mechanism or the courage to get rid of it. Now, yes, to your point, they did finally get there. But I think, as I said earlier, the fact that it took so long allowed it to get entrenched.

And now it's it's there. And it's just like federal vision. It took so long to deal with that, that we still have ministers in the PCA that are, you know, federal vision, federal vision light. It's hard to define.

Of course, it's it's it's not a monolithic position, but the fact remains it's still there. And it shows itself every now and then. And these are problems that I just at the age of 60, I'm at the point now where I can all I can do at this point in life is pastor my church.

And I can't be worried about every controversy that comes down through the denomination. Again, there are some things I can live with. You know, no problem. You know, the silly things like the PCA has assistant pastors.

I don't think that's biblical, but I can live with it. They they extend to ministers the ability to minister out of bounds. That's what it's called. And where they're they're not serving a local church, but yet they can they can vote at presbytery.

They can serve on committees. I don't like it. I don't think that's the best way to do things, but I can live with it. It's not a deal breaker. I can't live with these two at Federal Vision. I can't live with that.

I can't live with revoice at all. And I certainly couldn't live with the the constant now it's constant attempts by some in the denomination. Thankfully, they're still in the minority, as far as I can tell, to to accomplish.

A functional, egalitarian hierarchy and position of the officers within Christ Church, I think the scripture is clear that the offices of deacon and elder are open to men only, period. Again, people are going to disagree, and that's OK.

But the burden of proof needs to be on them because the PCA has always held that it's only for men. But this is being challenged now pretty much on a yearly basis. And as I've told you off air and I've told other friends, yes, I don't now I don't have a dog.

I don't have a dog in the hunt anymore. That's true. But I still have friends in the PCA and I'm concerned for them. But this is the tactic of progressive progressive mentality. You keep bringing the same argument to the table every year, year after year.

Eventually you're going to win. This is how it happens. And the only way to defeat that is for the conservatives to be vigilant and active on their at Presbyterian committees at General Assembly. They have to be diligent.

Otherwise, they're going to lose. And this is what happened at the PCUSA. History history is simply repeating itself. It may be moving slower than the PCUSA, but it is moving in that same general direction.

And that's a concern. Obviously, I don't have to deal with it anymore, but it's still there. Now, now, going back to my question before, are all of the advocates of side B Christianity, chastity is a good enough reason to permit homosexuals not only as members of congregations, but as pastors, are those that supported that still in the TCA?

Yeah, I can't I can't definitively tell you that they're all out. I do know one who is and he was the leading Greg Johnson. So he was I think that was his name. Yeah, so anyway, he was one of the loudest voices in this area, no pun intended, and he has since left he and Memorial, which is a rather large church in St. Louis, has left the PCA.

Everybody who's paying any attention knows this, this old news, and they are petitioning the EPC, as far as I know, to join. But that has not been approved yet. So as far as. Greg Johnson's comments on one radio program was that there are many men in the ministry in the PCA that were like him, but they are not public about it, if that's true.

Then I seriously doubt they're all out. OK, we're going to go to our first commercial break, and if you have a question for Pastor Bill Hill, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost.

And the glory of our triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.

We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org. That's trbccarlisle .org.

God willing, we'll see you soon. Hello, this is Brian Nye, president of Hearts for the Lost Ministry. Our sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite and educate their flock in biblical evangelism.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

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Welcome back and once again, thank all of you who have been praying for my dear friend, Dr. Joseph C. Morecraft III after his serious fall in his home several months ago, which had him hospitalized and then in a physical rehab facility up until just recently, he just preached for the second time from his pulpit.

And I am praising God that he has been restored to his great love next to God and his wife being behind that pulpit. And I am looking forward to having him back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Please pray that he increases rapidly in his strength and vitality and health and is able to return.

I know that he has developed a hearing problem as a result of this, and hopefully that will be healed by our sovereign Lord soon. I also want to let our listeners know about two shows this week that they will likely be interested in hearing.

They both involve PCA pastors, interestingly. The first is tomorrow. I have Reformed Baptist pastor Bill Webster. And I have PCA pastor David T. King, who are both going to be joining each other on my show tomorrow to discuss Who is My Brother?

Where Should Christians Draw the Line with Ecumenism? That's tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And then on Wednesday, we have a topic that is more related to our conversation today. We have Stephen Cook on the show.

I'm sorry, Scott Cook on the show, who is pastor of Oconee Presbyterian Church of Seneca, South Carolina, which is a PCA congregation. And Pastor Scott Cook is going to be addressing the upcoming vote in the PCA at the General Assembly on the ordination of female deacons.

So you might want to listen to both of those interviews tomorrow and Wednesday. But we are now back on the into the interview with Bill Hill and his journey out of the PCA, and we'll be finding out soon where he has landed right now.

But before we get to that point, would you say a lot of this difficulty that you have trying to remain faithful to your biblical convictions, faithful to God himself, has to do with being unevenly yoked, that the tent of the PCA is far too big and therefore permitting ideas to be accepted as valid that push the envelope too far and therefore causing you to say, how on earth could we be united as brethren and be yoked with one another for the same cause when we have such serious differences that could really bring about great division in the body of Christ and even anarchy?