Apologia Radio talking about Taxes

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Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

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Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? Delusional is okay in your worldview.

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I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional so you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

00:23

It doesn't really hurt Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

00:36

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

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Going to all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make grosses, right?

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Don't go in the world make homies Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not

01:13

Then the

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Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words And they send their disciples to him along with the

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Herodians saying teacher We know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully and you do not care about anyone's opinion for you are not swayed

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Appearances. I like that flattery Tell us then what do you think is is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?

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But Jesus aware of their malice said why put me to the test you hypocrites Show me the coin for the tax and they brought him a denarius and Jesus said to them whose likeness and inscription is this they said

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Caesars Then he said to them therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesars and to God the things that are gods

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When they heard it they marveled and they left him and went away what's up guys Welcome back to the gospel heard around the world

02:09

You guys can get us an apology of studios .com a p o l o g i a Studios calm that's where you to go get to get all of the past radio shows podcast episodes you get television shows and you can sign up for all access and partner with our ministry and make everything that we're doing possible as you communicate the gospel all around the world in so many different areas whether it is in the area of abortion whether it's in the area of atheism

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03:17

We're gonna talk about taxes today That is Luke the bear the man the myth

03:22

Oh the legend pastor Luke Pearson and Hey, you know, we're here today. She's the two of us we're gonna talk about something that's near and dear to our hearts and that is the law of God and We're gonna talk about the issue of taxes.

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Yes Taxation y 'all the sorts of things that people threw tea into into Water could you have done that?

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Oh If you were in that position and they were like we're throwing your bow in the bay Would not have done it

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I didn't think so I would have just I would have maybe like throwing it into a boat like overboard and be like see it's going over.

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It's You can't throw that you can't throw that you can't throw that away that's crazy and the crazy thing is is what was the number

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I think it was like 2 % or less taxes on tea They were like, how dare you you tyrant try to tax this product at that level of taxation you're going down they saw a taxation on a product a

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Product of tea those Brits in their tea. They're like you ain't taxing my tea. Oh, they love their tea

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They do love their John Sampson loves his tea He does he always needs to have like remember when he saw his one is like PG tips or something

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He bought like literally like a crate because it was on clearance you tips. Yeah. Yep. That's right that's what they do and they love their tea and so you can see all the descendants of the of the

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British coming over and Loving Jesus and loving God's law and justice. They were like say what? King George the tyrant says what yeah, what and taxation 2 % or less or whatever whatever it was

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So we're gonna talk about that today and a biblical taxation. Well, how do we respond to the the question?

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the full of malice and hypocrisy that they were asking of Jesus trying to Entrap him.

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How do we respond to that? And does the Bible have anything to say about just taxation and so we have one of our heroes one of our friends one of our mentors

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Uncle Gary Gary DeMar from American vision. You can get him in an American vision org and calm

05:17

I believe go get their stuff. It is all delicious and Some of you guys may have recently seen the theology bites episode that we did with Gary DeMar I was also that was that was also very delicious.

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We had a lot of fun doing that and We've done tons of stuff with Gary over the years so just look look search

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Apologia Studios look for uncle Gary and you guys are gonna get some good good stuff and Recommendation I'll make for you guys ahead of time as you guys think about what can

05:43

I get from Gary is get wars and rumors Of wars by Gary DeMar and you get that an

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American vision. So welcome to the show. Once again, uncle Gary Gary DeMar Good to be here.

05:55

All right, brother. So we're seeing and hearing a lot from each other lately. Yeah Was being interviewed by Chris Ormson last night

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It was a two -hour show, but about an hour and 50 minutes of commercials And I told

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Chris I said, you know while your commercial was going on my wife and I went out to eat dinner But I mentioned you guys because I was talking about eschatology a little bit

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And I said when I first got into all this and started talking on eschatology Ken Gentry and I and a couple of other people were about the only ones who were talking about it and interviewing and debating it and When I first started

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I found that you know, all the phone calls we would get I'd be attacked We'd be at 90 % to 10 % of the people just attacking me.

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And in fact, I did a California interview show over three nights. It was nine hours three night three hours each each night

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We now in fact, we just offered it today called Gary DeMar under fire We're just people were just asking questions regarding eschatology, but I went on to say look but today

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Now we've got all these young guys out there and I mentioned apologia and you and Luke and and of course

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James White Who's a little older guy, but a lot of young there are a lot of young guys now who are who have grasped the comprehensiveness of The Christian worldview began beginning to apply to every area of life seeing the interconnectedness of things like law and worldview and eschatology and journalism and video and film production

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All of this all this fits together So it's really a brand new world and you know things have changed dramatically and think about what we're doing right here

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Here I am and Marietta George you guys are in Arizona and You're doing this all over the world because of the changes in technology and we should be encouraged by this

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I always seem to think that you know, the unbelievers are the ones are Taking advantage of all this but you know

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Christians have understood this as well. Yeah Absolutely. Amen. Yeah, so we should talk about it.

08:21

Just lay some foundations Thank you guys everybody who's joining us on the episode today live and there's everyone who's listening to it

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Later by download and streaming. I want to start with the foundations

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Let's get into what is an area of special a special area of expertise and experience for you

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Gary and that is the issue of God's law You've talked a lot about God's law and in your series got the

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God and government series You talk a lot about the history of the West and biblical foundations

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That were there in terms of justice and standards of righteousness and society and law So we okay, let's start this way

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So people are coming here today and they see the title that says apology or radio talking about taxes and ooh

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That sounds interesting like into what degree and and we're supposed to just you know Obey the government and and if they say pay this level of taxes

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We just do that sort of a thing and so people always will quote Romans 13 submit to the governing authorities they always miss that part where it says that the governing authorities are

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God's deacon God's a servant to Essentially uphold justice and to punish the wicked and to protect the righteous

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So people miss that in terms of the definition of God's deacon

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What's he supposed to be up to but the issue of taxation you have people today Gary in America Wealthy people who have worked hard to build businesses and create jobs

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They pay people and creates the things Donald Trump, yeah Well, not Donald Trump's a guy he did he's made a lot of money and build businesses

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But you know, we say things like today like we have like the coveting tax today where we say like you you're really wealthy

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You've made a lot of money. You've produced a lot of things in the world. You've made a lot of jobs You've got a really big house.

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You've got great cars and the trophy wife. And so that means That we're gonna tax you at 65 percent.

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Maybe we like to get around 90 95 somewhere around there And so we just say like well, that's just how it is.

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That's a coveting tax You just have to pay it because why because well, you're really doing well. I want that stuff Yeah, and so we say even for the average

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American citizen today. We have something called income tax Not just tax on products not just tax on services or something like that But we have taxation on income and so we just assume it now and we don't know where it came from and we assume that's just That's just how we're supposed to be.

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Yeah, and now here's the thing. We live in a society and culture We can't do anything about it. You just have to yield to it or you're gonna get busted up But we have to ask the question.

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Is it just and does God's law speak to the issue of taxation? So maybe we start there

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Gary does God's law speak to this Do we actually have biblical standards to point to and help us get into it by talking that direction?

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Well, the Bible has a great deal to say about all this We're always back to this by what standard are you going to determine what what sort of taxation we ought to have

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But that's you can't even start there You've got to go back and say when we talk about governments and I outlined this in my my book

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God in government That the Bible addresses multiple governments family church and state

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The the civil government if it very very limited in its scope very very limited in its jurisdiction

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And therefore any taxes any taxes that are Accumulated should only be only go towards those things which the

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Bible says it specifically has jurisdiction over But what's happened in our culture today?

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We turn more and more jurisdiction over to the civil magistrate a good example is the area of education

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The Department Federal Department of Education didn't didn't start until Jimmy Carter's administration

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We didn't have a federal Department of Education We there are literally tens of billions of dollars that are taken from taxpayers that go up to the federal government

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Then the federal federal government disperses those Back to the back to the states and therefore controls the curriculum the way things ought to go

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Well, the not only doesn't the the Bible give direction and jurisdiction to the civil magistrate on education

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But neither does the Constitution You will not find the word education anywhere in the

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Constitution and since the Constitution is a document of enumerated powers that is unless a

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Power is actually listed in the Constitution. The federal government doesn't have any jurisdiction over it, right?

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So when you start talking about taxation, you have to talk about what should so what the civil government do?

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What is the duty of the civil magistrate? And you can start lopping off all kinds of things at the civil civil magistrate should not be involved in and that that then there fits with the

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Amount of taxation you have right? Everything is taxed and almost everything is controlled by the federal government

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We turn things over to the federal government and if you look at the ninth and tenth amendments to the Constitution These things should reside with the states and if the states don't have that authority they should reside with with the people.

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That's right and Unfortunately, you you mentioned this covenant the covetous tax people say yeah tax those rich people tax those rich people and when the when the

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Think it's the 16th amendment. The income tax amendment was voted on the people were promised that This was going to be a tax on the richest of the rich and it was supposed to be a very very small tax

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Then so the majority of people said well, I'm not the super rich it's not going to affect me So I'm gonna vote for this and I'm gonna benefit by taxing these really rich people

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But what we they didn't figure on is that the government lies and they always lie and they always increase their

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Increase their ability to tax people. Yeah, and so With inflation and so we we have inflation where the government can't even get enough money in terms of taxes

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So what they do, they literally print it now. They just add a couple of zeros and you make digital currency.

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We've got this exuberance of the Fed another institution that the

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Constitution It doesn't give power to they just print money Just give it, you know, give it away which dilutes the the the value of your of your money

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And so what happens is, you know when my parents first bought their their house It was in the neighborhood of maybe nine thousand nine thousand dollars

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Those homes now where I grew up when they bought in 1955 Those houses are selling for a hundred and fifty thousand dollars

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So what's happened is when that the income tax amendment was was first implemented

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The only the rich were were paying it, but now we're the rich We're the ones making forty fifty sixty seventy thousand eighty thousand hundred thousand hundred twenty thousand dollars a year

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But that's only because the government has inflated the currency That is it has diluted the value of the currency.

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We've been bumped up into higher tax brackets That's right. So this this all is this isn't just about taxing the church

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This is about the very spectrum of what it means For the government to control our lives and then to finance that control of our lives

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Using envy and covetousness in order to control people. That's powerful.

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And there's Gary there's there's a actually an excellent portion of Scripture to look at Is it first or second

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Samuel in chapter 8? I'm losing that right now first first Samuel first first Samuel 8 and this is where Basically Israel wants to be like all the other nations and wants to have a king now

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God actually Punishes them because he says I'm your king right? They were supposed to be ruled under God And so he says fine you want a king like all the other nations?

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You'll get one and here's what he's gonna do He's gonna take you our sons to war and he's gonna tax you at 10 %

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So what's interesting is it was seen as a judgment of God a judgment of God to be taxed at 10 %

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In other words, I mean think of that So right some some states have income have a sales tax close to 10 % no kidding

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And so what's interesting is you have a it's definitional in God's law This is judgment. The state will become so wicked and think that it's

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God and that it's worthy of the tithe 10 % it's so corrupt and wicked it actually thinks it can take

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God's money Yeah, the God's level of giving 10 % and so that is clearly wicked

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To take 10 % taxes is a punishment on people and we are way beyond that now

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Yeah, and we even have and this is so great It's what I've learned from you Gary about history in terms of where we've come from this is powerful in terms of God's law has has a very focused attention an eye on personal property

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Justice those sorts of things So there's rules in God's law about boundary markers like you don't move your boundary marker

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Like you don't steal land from another person why because personal property matters You've got laws against theft and the requirement to repay when you've stolen

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God even has different standards in terms of you've stolen something for a business The the repayment is different because it was for a business

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So personal property is a big deal to God God preserves that and then you've got the issue of like wealth in a family wealth

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Building in a family that's meant to pass down to the next generation to bless the next generation so like there's this there's this whole system in God's law where they're supposed to be like this growing of wealth and prosperity

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Because of personal property labor the all those great things that happen in somebody's life that then gets passed down to the family

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So now the family gets a boost in the next generation to build businesses to establish, you know

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It's good for society like it's good for everybody talk about like, you know, what's good for the society around us

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I'd say, you know that the family there's establishing of wealth But what's amazing is God's law says like what's got to go this way when the person dies

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God's law doesn't suggest that it goes to the state Well now the government's got to get their portion of like your personal property as though they owned it

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They don't in God's law. That's yours That's just straight away that belongs to you and it goes to your family distributed to your family

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And now we have like high sales tax you have income tax you have death tax

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You've got now the money not going to the firstborn of your family Now the firstborn is the state right and here's another thing too.

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And this is a sad situation It's nothing to laugh about it's very very serious Now when you buy a house in the

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United States of America, I was gonna mention that you you don't you bought your house recently Yeah, you're never gonna own it, right?

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That's that's very disturbing and unjust you buy a house you pay that house off, but you are renting from the government

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Permanently how property taxation right? So now like you can't just own a house and land and property now

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We have property tax where guess what if you don't pay your property taxes You're not keeping that land.

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Yeah, and and you think about like what's the property tax for? Well, it's to pay for all these things over here and over here and you go

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But I don't want to have anything to do with those things doesn't matter pay it or I take your stuff so you have essentially the threat now of I will take your property via force if you don't pay me this money

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Now that sounds to me like something that robbers do The difference is is robbers usually use a deadly weapon to cause fear

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Whereas in this case, it's it's judges wearing black robes with fancy pens

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Yeah, and they threaten you with incarceration or the removal of your property and all the rest Yeah I was gonna say it's funny because the property taxes go for something that Gary doesn't believe in and that's public schools and yeah, we

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We've been taxed on public schools ever since we've owned under house Even when you rent by the way, a lot of people don't realize this when you're renting you're still paying the property tax because your rent is

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Part of what you're the owner of the property has he has to pay that he's just added it to To your to your rental price, but yeah, we had to and you guys the same thing

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We had to pay the property tax when our children were going to we homeschool for a while But we also send them to private school.

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So we were paying a double tax, right? And in essence, we're having to pay for other people's children to go to school for free and then we had to pay for our children to go to Private schools that we paid out of our own pocket and we we we went without things

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In order, you know to do that today Public education is not free public.

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Someone's paying for it and you and people Don't realize it But there it's being paid for at a discount for them because other people are being forced to have to pay tax

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In order to educate for the educational system to work. We even just had in Gilbert They just had a vote to raise

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The funds for the school system were like no You know, but I think a lot of the problems a lot of Christians like they're like, okay

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Yeah, sure. No problem because they're sending their kids to public schools, but like, you know, they're like, oh, yeah It's not that big of an increase, you know

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And so my my property taxes have increased a little bit in the two years I've owned my house and you know, it's not much but when you start to add that up, you know, it's it's theft

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It's not fair, right? It's not fair. It's not just because you're not you're not asking to pay that It's not a voluntary tax, right?

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So I guess let's let's do that real fast and we'll I have you answer that question Gary about the question asked of Jesus Is is there such a thing as a righteous tax like can we do this?

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Can we do this in a way that's pleasing? Can we do it in a way that's pleasing to God is the question I have like we have to be able to fund the government to be the servant of God to execute justice

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They need we need a court system We need to be able to distribute Punishments all those sorts of things you need to be able to pay for that So is there a way and that's really that's what the government's for all these other social programs

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That's not what the government's for the government should not be funding those things taking money for those things But they do need to receive money to be able to function, right?

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So yeah That's that's what you have to determine. You have to determine What is the the legitimate jurisdictional power of a civil government at the federal level at the state?

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Level and at the county level and once you do that you say this is what we collect taxes for and so Education that's not that's not the domain of the government

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And so there you want to you would get education you pay for your child's own education and people say well we can't afford that Well, I guarantee you if everybody had to pay for their own child's education the cost of education would come down, right?

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You would also see that there would be a shorter day You don't need to be in in classes.

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Anybody who's homeschooled knows this Yes, you don't have to be in classes six to seven hours a day wouldn't be driving them to school there wouldn't be any school buses all of these all of these things would change the the

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The actual cost of something would would go down And but a lot of people just they want the big football team.

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They want the band. They weren't cheerleading They want prestige for their school and so forth and so they're they're willing to send their children to a essentially a corrupt system and And but they're getting it at a discount because they're not pulling a paying the full freight when we send our kids to Christian school my wife taught there help pay for it

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No one no one was sent away because they couldn't afford it There was always a way in order to make to accommodate people who didn't have the money for it and if churches got involved and quit spending their money on the

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Facilities and use some of that money to like we at our church. We have a Christian school

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And they think about churches churches use the big churches use

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Sunday school classes. How many hours a week? To So the rest of the week those classrooms are vacant that school that the church is vacant and what we've done at our church is those

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Sunday school classes are Are used for the Christian school? Yeah And so here you are

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You're paying you're paying your tithe to the church and that then is used to help educate your own children

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And what we what do we end up doing we end up, you know Sending missionaries overseas and and the irony here is that we end up sending missionaries and money overseas for schools

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You know to teach to teach these these young people these these families and they to start schools and yet we won't do it in our own in our own country because we you know

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It's we just think it's more Prestigious to send our children To a school with a big big name and a big big band and the football team and the stadium and all those types of things so all of these these factors fit into What is necessary for what the civil government should be doing?

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Education is a big one. Take that out. You change things dramatically. We never should have had Social Security We met

25:53

Medicare and all those all those things as well People say well, how could we ever live without?

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Social Security save your own money Invest your own money. Yeah, you keep it and and I studies have been done.

26:08

I know there was a County in Texas that there was a time where you could drop out of the

26:14

Social Security system In fact public school teachers had a choice of either being in or out of the

26:20

Social Security system. That's all changed now Did you know that congressmen? Senators and federal workers were not part of the

26:28

Social Security system until about 1983 or 1985 that means the people the men and women who voted in Social Security were not in the system themselves.

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They had their own private So -called Social Security system funded by their own pay and also funded by additional monies taken from us to give to them

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That was later later changed Churches by the way, we're not involved in Christian schools

26:56

I remember the first time we taught at a Christian school and in nonprofit organizations they were not in the Social Security system and the study was done in Texas with a school system where the teachers had opted out and They had more money saved up as a result of privately funding their own retirement system

27:16

Then they would have gotten with Social Security, of course. Yes So you just go down the list with all these different programs and they say well, how could we live without them?

27:25

Well, we're for the longest time. We did live without. Yeah. Yeah, and We you people just need to be disciplined to you know, take care of there are lots of people today

27:34

Who don't have say much saved up for for retirement because they're dependent now

27:39

They think Social Security is going to take care of them Yeah They're in for a rude awaking to find out how little they're actually going to get in Social Security Now they haven't saved on their own

27:50

It's it's they're gonna be in big trouble and watch the federal government come in here and tax us even more to in order to Help people who can't afford to retire.

27:58

That's right. That's that's happening in my own dad right now I've been talking to him. He's his health is his backs real bad He's not able to work until he's going on Social Security.

28:06

No, it's not It's peanuts. He's like how do you try to do? What's happened though is that the the government says oh so so so Social Security you you go you go back and study the history of Social Security and You will find it with Otto von

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Bismarck Who was the leader of Germany before the rise of Adolf Hitler and Adolf Hitler?

28:32

actually modeled his version of Social Security after Otto von

28:38

Bismarck and so did FDR I have a book that says the whole history of all this on It's it's promoting

28:47

Social Security and I think it was it was written before the before Hitler came to power and the example

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They use is Otto von Bismarck and it sounds just like our own

28:58

Social Security system today So it was birthed in Pre -nazi

29:04

Germany Weimar Republic so the history of this is is

29:12

Enormous in the way that the government has just controlled every aspect of our lives and make things more expensive for us

29:18

Yes, and so we're gonna get just take a commercial break here in a minute and then we're gonna come back and really addressed address the passage where Jesus is challenged by the people who obviously had malice and We're hypocrites according to Jesus who are trying to challenge him on the issue of taxation

29:35

We're gonna examine that that's used a lot in terms of I mean, I even sell someone a thread here It's just like who who's on our money.

29:41

That's our government. You got to pay taxes to whom they're due. Really? How about if they ask for 99 %? How about that?

29:46

You're still gonna say pay to whom's due or is there actually an issue of justice involved or was

29:51

Jesus really giving carte blanche just saying Olly olly oxen free every government can take whatever they want from you and you just got to pay it because hey their images

29:59

On that thing. Is that really what Jesus was saying? Is that what he was saying? Well, we're arguing here is actually that Jesus is

30:05

King He's Lord over all his law is good and we ask these questions when we face society by what standard

30:12

Should we actually face this down and address this and we say the law of God so for example

30:18

Right here. Oh See that that's a that's a hurricane. That's a six -hour p226 mark 25

30:26

That's the Navy SEAL. That was the Navy SEAL issue at nine millimeter. And what do you got?

30:31

What do you got show show right here? I got a Kimber. There you go. Nine. There you go. That's yes That's a little that's a sweet little thing.

30:38

We put a big hurtin, but why why are we? We were saying actually there were a lot of good things that happened early on in America Because of the

30:46

Christian worldview in the atmosphere. So for example the freedom of religion freedom of speech The right to keep and bear arms the right to defend yourself the right to self -defense there the right against Warrantless searches and seizures biblical law is behind that the right against self -incrimination

31:05

That's biblical law all over that. So what we're actually saying is not, you know

31:10

Republicans and Libertarians and Ron Paul's my homeboy. Although although Ron Paul is my homeboy

31:16

Although is my homeboy, but that's not that's not the point here We're not arguing from that kind of political platform standpoint

31:22

We're arguing from a Christian perspective that the law of God produces fruit and blessing in a society

31:28

And when you get away from God's law, there's corruption. There's injustice. There's pain. There's destruction

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There's misery on a number of levels. But why do we you know, why do we have things like this?

31:38

Why do we why are we believers in the Second Amendment? I would argue it's because of God's law and why are we opposed to unjust taxation in these ways?

31:46

It's because God's law exactly God's law speaks to personal property. It speaks to the issue of taxation it tells you what even judgment taxation is gives you a standard for what that would look like and I think any any nation

32:00

That wants to obey Jesus needs to consider that God's already said, you know If you're the kind of wicked nation or king that believes that you can take 10 % you're in sin

32:08

Yeah, because that's judgment from God. He said so so that's we I think we need to gauge it like that We need to say like if we love our neighbor

32:15

Here's the final thing I'll say here if we love our neighbor and that's what it comes down to people forget that in this whole

32:21

Discussion like just pay it the ollie ollie oxen free pay the taxes like if they say it pay it pay it pay it

32:26

It's like no if you love your neighbor Which were commanded to do you'll actually care that they're being stolen from Take yourself out of the picture for a second and care and talk about justice for your neighbor

32:36

If your neighbors are being stolen from Does Jesus command you in the New Covenant to care about that right?

32:43

Why'd he says love your enemies and to love your neighbor as you love yourself So love for my neighbor requires me to care when injustice is perpetrated upon them

32:52

Is it unjust to have these sorts of taxation or tax codes imposed upon people?

32:58

The answer is yes by what standard by the law of God standard. He's revealed from his own mouth

33:04

This is unjust. This is wicked. This is sinful So we should say love for neighbor requires me to care about that not love for Ron Paul Not love for libertarianism not love for Republican Party But love for the law of God, why should we care about the

33:19

Second Amendment being attacked because God's law? Yep Did you know that that there's actually the biblical case in terms of weapons and being able to defend yourself all those things?

33:29

Why should care about the Second Amendment because God's law why should we care about the First Amendment because God's law? Why should we care about the Fourth Amendment because God's law

33:34

Fifth Amendment because God's law God's law was underneath that So we're gonna take a quick commercial break.

33:40

We'll come back more with uncle Gary talking about taxation We're gonna get right into Matthew 22 and ask

33:46

Gary the question that was asked of Jesus Does that mean unlimited taxation you just have to obey or what actually was being asked there?

33:55

And what did Jesus respond with? Why does it matter? We will be right back guys. Stay with us And I'm gonna kick it over to The bear and he's gonna ask some current event issues with tax exempt stuff with churches those sorts of things very important discussion

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37:39

That is Luke the bear Jeff the comb of the ninja apology of studios calm is where you guys go to get more a

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Bruin That'll be hopefully coming out pretty soon. So hey guys, welcome back. We're talking about as you can see in the description

38:02

Taxation we're talking about God's law just taxation. So I opened up the show today reading from Matthew chapter 22

38:10

Starting at verse 15. It's the question that the Pharisees went and Plotted how to entangle him in his words and they sent their disciples to him along with the

38:19

Herodians saying teacher We know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully and you do not care about anyone's opinion for you are not

38:25

Swayed by appearances tell us then what do you think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?

38:31

No question trying to trap Jesus and twist him up. Here's the deal. This thing's used all the time

38:38

I'm sure there are people that are gonna come a come in a thread here and they were like That's where Jesus says you just pay taxes to see you do everything

38:45

He says Luke you obey and you yield to Caesar because his image is on that coin exactly

38:51

So Gary DeMar is Jesus teaching unlimited taxation here that we just pay taxes just However, that well the first verse 15 is the key to this whole thing.

39:03

They came to trap him, right? So this is this is an attempt to trap trap

39:08

Jesus in something And any any of these these religious leaders would have known the history of why there is a coin with Caesars image on it and that they are now under the boot of the

39:24

Roman Empire They're under judgment. These aren't normal Circumstances if if Israel hadn't hadn't been

39:34

Hadn't been disobedient and under God's judgment, they wouldn't be under the boot of Rome and so Jesus is actually

39:42

Explaining to them. You're here on the terms of judgment The reason that you're under Caesar at this particular point is because it was your choice to do so That's the first thing.

39:53

It was a trap in order to and by the way We know that what happens later on because when Jesus is taken to trial

39:59

False witnesses come and say oh he he said we weren't supposed to pay taxes to Caesar And so this is now this is a jurisdictional debate and here is a rebel.

40:12

He here's a zealot And he's broken Roman law and so forth and so on.

40:18

Of course, Jesus never said any such thing But this this was this is this is kind of like what's happening with the

40:24

Democrats and Trump They're looking for a way to get rid of him and one of the ways was to use

40:32

What the state loves the most and that's power and money and to use use false witnesses in order to bring that to bear

40:39

Upon Jesus so they could get rid of him and what and then John chapter 19 verse 15

40:44

What do we what do we hear the crowd say when given the chance to either take?

40:50

Release Jesus or Barabbas They call out for Barabbas and then what is what is

40:56

Pilate say the child crucify your king and their response We have no king but Caesar exactly.

41:01

So this is a this is a long line and remember this is this is leading up to This is chapter 22 chapter 23 deals with an indictment upon the religious leaders of Israel and Jesus's day and in chapter 24 is a description of the destruction of Jerusalem and The judgment upon their nation.

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This is all intertwined Jesus this isn't something just pulled out of out of context here.

41:35

And so now Jesus is going to talk about taxation No, this is a passage dealing with Judgment they were under the judgment of the

41:44

Roman Empire and those coins And the fact that they and by the way, the tax here is simply a

41:49

I think it's a poll tax It's not what we would call an income tax Although there was that and you had

41:56

Matthew who was a tax collector you collecting taxes for the Roman Empire But I always tell people

42:04

We don't live under Caesar If you maintain that we are living under Caesar Then you completely misunderstand the biblical directive of applying

42:14

God's Word to every area of life and how we should be living our forefathers

42:20

Worked very diligently in order to get us out of this idea that we are beholding to an almighty powerful monarchical state like Rome and The goal was to to get us out of that area area and we we find ourselves with a constitution the

42:40

Constitution of the United States We always talk about the First Amendment regarding the freedom of religion and freedom of the press freedom of the right to to assemble

42:51

And and freedom of speech those of those all those are related But there's another freedom in there that we miss

42:58

Related to this particular topic and that is that we can petition the government for a redress of grievances

43:05

That is we can change our government. These Jews couldn't change the Roman government

43:10

We can that is a that is within our power to do so Yeah so if we see the federal government over taxing us

43:17

Christians should be outraged by this because of Jeff what you talked about in 1st

43:22

Samuel chapter 8 a 10 % tax is a sign of tyranny Christians everywhere should be saying we're taxed 10 %

43:29

We are under judgment and we should be changing that and we have the right to do so We don't have to just we don't have to acquiesce to Caesar.

43:38

We don't have to acquiesce to our Congress or to the Supreme Court we can change our government

43:45

And so I I'm I get irritated with Christians to say oh, we're you know We're supposed to render under Caesar the things that are

43:51

Caesars. Well, how do you determine what's what Caesars? And since our Constitution is in fact our

43:57

Caesar we can change it The rendering the rendering is in our hands

44:02

We just have to we just have to make the changes ourselves I'm creating but then we got Christians who don't want to be involved in politics because Jesus didn't get involved in politics.

44:12

We can't judge You know, we're living in the last days or Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world

44:18

Politics is dirty. You can't impose your morality on other people In fact, I wrote a book about this called myths lies and half -truths to deal with all these things only

44:27

Christians are in a stupor. Yes, they don't know God's Word. They put God's law aside.

44:34

We're under grace now We're not under law. We live in two kingdoms There's the kingdom of over here that's governed by natural law and so forth and we got the kingdom of the church and it only works on a

44:45

Ecclesiastical law and we as Christians can't go into this other kingdom and make application

44:50

All of this is a mixture as Gary North says you can't change just one thing

44:56

Everything has to change and Christians better get on board or they're gonna find themselves of what's happening in Hong Kong Very good.

45:03

Basically what I just heard is that eschatology even affects taxes. Oh, yeah Yeah, whoever controls the money controls the future.

45:10

Yeah, whoever controls the schools controls the future. That's a t -shirt Whoever controls the press controls the future

45:19

How come Christians don't don't learn this lesson It's it's it's writ large in history, and it's written large in biblical history as well you should be like Is it be like unjust taxation question mark?

45:33

I should say is get some post mill or get that post mill or something You know I'm saying like yeah

45:39

So somebody asked you kind of already answered it Gary and somebody asked in a thread like do we just rebel do we just revolt?

45:45

Well, the answer is I think the answer that is like we don't have that kind of a system like Christians can operate within this

45:50

System to actually influence with the gospel first and foremost. So people's hearts change in this area

45:57

They don't want to take from their neighbor. They don't want to covet they respect personal property those sorts of things

46:02

But we actually Gary's right. We have a system where we can actually redress the government and we say no you're being wicked

46:07

No, you're being sinful, but it is Gary's right. It's gonna take the church Standing up and saying this isn't my personal opinion

46:16

It's wicked because God said so so repent of it. Stop doing it. Well, even Christians like free stuff.

46:21

That's the problem There's nothing new in any of this

46:27

I mean the reason we we have a the

46:32

Tenth Commandment about you know coveting now shall not covet is is Because we are covetousness, yeah, we're involved in covetousness

46:42

Paul brings this Paul brings this up Nothing has changed since the Garden of Eden.

46:47

We're all we're the same You got envy All of these sins that we're seeing today are within the church

46:57

Unfortunately, you got pastors who won't preach on this stuff Yeah, and the reason they don't miss because there's another economic reason is that they're in debt

47:06

They put all they've you know, you can you can gauge how much? How much a pastor will really be serious about preaching on God's law?

47:16

By how much debt they're in because they know if they they talk up and this is saying about abortion and homosexuality as well

47:23

It's because they they look and they say if I lose 20 % of my congregation, we're gonna be bankrupt and and so Again this is all this is all intertwined

47:33

You can't you can't just move away from one area and then and put it over here and say we can't discuss that We this idea of two kingdoms is nonsense.

47:42

There's one kingdom, but there are two there are different jurisdictions There's an ecclesiastical jurisdiction and there's a civil jurisdiction.

47:49

They have we believe Christians believe they should believe In a separation between church and state with one with one

47:59

Defining word there and that is a jurisdictional separation between church and state. That's why churches should not be taxed just like state governments can't tax federal governments and federal governments can't tax state governments and United States government cannot tax

48:18

Embassies is because there's jurisdictional separation Again Christians aren't taught this this sort of thing.

48:26

The Bible is very specific about jurisdictional separation So this this brings us right into the next topic then and what kind of actually?

48:35

Influences having this show was I had posted an article about better hide your guns

48:41

O 'Rourke and how he said how he said He said that he if he was president that he would you know

48:49

Make it so that church just had to pay taxes or something like that You know and so you Gary you came on then you're like actually it's not the church that pays the taxes the people and I Was like, let's talk about this and you know, let's do it.

49:00

So here we are So that's kind of what started this conversation. So so Gary explain then what you meant by that well, it's because the the people who

49:09

When you donate to a church you get a tax deduction. And by the way, this isn't just churches This is 501 c3

49:16

Organizations and that's a big discussion because Christians could say should are saying we shouldn't be 501 c3

49:23

Organizations because there's a law on the books from 1954 called the the Johnson Amendment Lyndon Johnson because he didn't like it because some nonprofit group

49:35

Attacked him and so he wanted this law passed. And of course all of these all of these

49:40

Politicians wanted this law passed to keep these organizations from from attacking them on principle

49:47

And so then this was written into the IRS code that 501 c3 Organizations that most churches are 501 c3 s that gives them

49:56

Protection as a result of all this cannot endorse a candidate and Beto O 'Rourke said oh, we're going to remove that they they shouldn't they shouldn't have this tax exemption anymore

50:08

But this applies to every every organization. It's a 501 c3 organization So when you donate to your church the church receives that money and doesn't have to pay tax on it

50:21

And you as the donor don't have to pay It's a it's deducted from you can deduct it from the your gross amount and anybody can do that liberal churches conservative churches

50:33

Irrelevant churches, I think they can do that and that's what 501 c3 is in general So to say what you're going to tax the church

50:41

You're really saying you're taxing individual people because they are the ones who are going to lose the tax exempt status.

50:47

Mm -hmm Exactly. Now, it's you could the church can get around this by saying

50:53

Look, we won't be taxed anyway, because if someone gives a gift to the church That's not taxable if I decide

51:01

I want to give $15 ,000 to my church and my wife wants to give $15 ,000 to the church the tax the church wouldn't be taxed on that I would be in my wife and well my wife and I would be because you can gift anybody up to $15 ,000 a year without any tax repercussions to the one who's receiving the gift

51:22

So that's right. That's right. But this is a jurisdictional issue this The church's church is an embassy and just like foreign embassies are not taxed

51:34

It's the same thing with the church's jurisdictional separation between church and state and don't you always hear, you know liberals saying separation between church and state separation between church and state until it comes to money and political influence and then that's when they want to come in there and And tax churches, but here's another thing.

51:54

I have this this article here that was in The Atlantic the online basically a liberal

52:04

Magazine Says black pastors are breaking the law to get Hillary Clinton elected now.

52:10

This was written in 2016 August of 2016 Nearly a third of these churchgoers say they've heard clergy support her for the from the pulpit in the past few months according to a survey

52:22

Liberals don't pay any attention to this this this prohibition this this

52:28

Johnson Amendment from 1954 they have been using churches to push politics and endorse candidates from the beginning

52:35

They are never attacked for this. This is only the only people the only groups that are attacked are conservative churches

52:42

Here's you know, Hillary Clinton and even Andrew Cuomo Who's passed this

52:49

Johnson Amendment for the state and of course Luke you saw my article on this Just a couple of years ago.

52:55

He's preaching in the in these churches and pushing candidates Yep, so liberals don't pay attention to these

53:03

To these laws these prohibitions only conservatives do they've been black churches have been and I'm hey,

53:10

I'm all for it Black churches, this was the place one of the places that all the only places blacks could get their message out was in churches

53:17

Well civil rights movement was based was based In churches, it was the

53:23

Reverend Martin Luther King who led this the civil rights movement

53:28

Where we are the ones with a message and unfortunately Christians Don't see it.

53:34

I just somebody saw that somebody posted something on my Facebook page today about oh You know, we we shouldn't be we shouldn't be preaching from politics from the pulpit and said well then you can't preach the

53:45

Bible They're 12 12 minor prophets read those minor prophets and tell me that they didn't preach politics

53:54

You got Isaiah chapter 1 dealt with the the topic of inflation Your your silver has become dross and your wine has been diluted with water

54:07

That's that's what our government has been doing with our currency and I tell people look you don't have to endorse a candidate but you are obligated to go to the

54:15

Bible and preach from the Bible what it has to say about every area of life and Politics is one of those areas.

54:21

Yeah Yeah It's one of one of our good friends says Well, we shouldn't say as Christians that we were to drop like vote for Murphy signs in front of our church kind of a thing

54:30

Right, but what we should say as churches under it really God's command Is that we preach the truth in the the issues of justice from the pulpit and comes out from the people of God to address?

54:42

The government's right. We should talk to the government and say this is unjust. This is wicked This is sinful and you're right

54:47

Gary a lot of churches don't realize that 501 c3 status Actually can cause a lot of problems for them and is doing so in states like New York Yep, you're just already causing problems for churches out there 501 c3 status

54:59

Hey, you'll be all be happy to know that apology a church is not 501 c3 We are 508 correct and that means we basically are

55:08

Defined as church -state Relationship you leave us alone You were the church.

55:15

We're not under your jurisdiction and However, we will tell you what God has to say and you had better listen

55:21

So yeah, one of my favorite sermons I think it's in our intro isn't it or was in the old intro is

55:27

By a guy that might get me banned from certain places if I say no he who shall not be named

55:32

Isn't our opening? Yes, that's right. But that was a sermon. He gave to was that the governor I think of Idaho It was amazing.

55:41

Yeah Yeah, he who shall not be exactly Sounds like sounds like Pilsen Election day sermons

55:53

This was all part of our heritage that gave us what we used to have in Christians Pastors today are just sheep.

56:02

They don't want to talk about this sort of thing at all But they're obligated to talk about these things.

56:08

That's why God raised them up The Apostle Paul had no problem dealing with this. Nope and issues, but we're not anarchists now

56:16

We're not we're not calling for an armed revolution to overturn our government We have the power which is within our power right now the next election

56:24

We could we could throw all the bums out Gary DeMar president

56:29

Gary DeMar president. I'll be I would vote for that in a heartbeat Gary Smuggler's Pilsen, there you go.

56:42

That's right. All right, so that's uncle Gary. Hey Gary. I it's America It's American vision calm and org right both

56:49

Vision org I've got a God in government book which deals with all this

56:55

All the stuff we've talked about today. It's it's in there You can order that you

57:01

Scott in government books on eschatology There's a story go to the story and do all that and I mentioned you guys earlier that we're working on a new

57:09

Greg Bonson book on apologetics based upon Two years of lectures that he did for us back in 1992 in 1993

57:18

We've transcribed the talks and they're being proof right now. That should be be out early next year.

57:24

Yes Excellent excellent guys get to know uncle

57:29

Gary Gary DeMar guys American vision comic So you guys go get some books again? Recommendations gotten governments amazing wars and rumors of wars really really bless you and challenge you

57:40

I encourage you go ahead and get it get the book today read the book chat and be challenged on the issue of eschatology

57:46

I think it'll really bless you one of the one of the things and I'll just sort of leave with this

57:52

Luke just Luke just said it pastor Luke. You said it the issue of eschatology impacts even your view of taxes

57:58

Because if you have a perspective of the future that Jesus is reigning and ruling now putting all of his enemies under his feet and he's

58:05

Bringing salvation and justice to the world There's a gospel of a kingdom of the kingdom if you believe that that actually impacts like your perspective of the future

58:14

You're not thinking just about the next five years or five months or seven years You're thinking about your great -great -great grandkids and what they're gonna face you're thinking about justice for your neighbors in the next generation because Because you have a long -term view of the future in terms of the victory of the

58:30

Messiah in the world And I will say this Gary just this will bless you because it's your ministry in life and labor that has impacted us

58:36

Which has led to our ministry of teaching and everything else around the world just in the last couple of months

58:41

I've had numerous people come up to me in different in different states who have said

58:47

Your teaching on the kingdom of God the victory of the Messiah The law of God has completely transformed my entire life my family

58:58

My what I'm doing in the world now it's completely changed my perspective and it's given me hope for the future and it's put me to work and Those sorts of things are being said so so Gary the message is is getting out there and God's doing big things

59:12

So we're blessed to be a part of brother. We thank you for joining us today on the show. Well, thank you any time

59:17

I'm available. I'm more than happy to come on. We'd love to have you on again brother. Hopefully soon.

59:23

All right All right, brother All right, everybody. So that has been apology a radio for today talking about biblical law taxation good show

59:31

Awesome, it was a good show. Hello very instructive. Very very instructive Hey guys people need to know about this

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Abortion hey, how do you do? I don't even remember how to do big Latin I like her me and the last time

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I should mention it free the states We have a conference we're doing in the beginning of February with free the states

01:05:12

Russell Hunter rusty Thomas I'm sorry, Russell. I if you watch this,

01:05:18

I don't have all the stuff memorized here. Do you Luke? Do you have memorized? I'm sorry guys. It's dates. It's been chaos the last couple.

01:05:23

No, I don't Okay, so I want to make sure since we have some everyone on right now, let's go ahead and do okay free the free the states

01:05:30

Get equipped ending abortion abolition now conference You guys are amazing.

01:05:35

I love how he's abolition now. I love you. I love you Russell So we've got

01:05:40

Joseph Silk senator Joseph Silk Russell Hunter rusty Thomas John speed just a bunch of people here myself

01:05:49

Luke you're coming. Yeah Yeah Pastor Zach's coming and we're having a special day where we team up with them and do some and abortion now stuff

01:05:57

So it is 2020 beginning of February. It's in, Oklahoma Go to free the states org to get registered and It's it's the beginning of February.

01:06:11

Sorry. I'm sorry I'm just go to that go to the website. I'm sorry guys. I should know this we have too much happening.

01:06:17

So that's coming up I Usually know these things what I can't see. Oh, here it is.

01:06:22

Okay abolition now conference February 7th through 12. That's it So we're teaming up with OSA some

01:06:30

AJ dudes and End abortion now working to once and for all end abortion criminalize it abolish it in the state of,

01:06:37

Oklahoma And so some big stuff happening. Make sure you guys come say hi to us come hang out with us we're gonna be doing that together with them very very humbled to be a part of that with these guys and Just be in prayer for us as we prep for 2020 we've been in meetings for the last day

01:06:52

As pastors just planning and prepping for our 2020 mission for end abortion now

01:06:57

And it's it's every year. God has given us more responsibility and he's given us more of an impact.

01:07:03

We started with peanuts in comparison to the abortion move the pro -life movement

01:07:10

Individually with peanuts it's still working with peanuts compared to them They have like multi multi -million dollar budgets and God has allowed us to do we've done with Peanuts in comparison and we're praising

01:07:20

God for that all the churches that have gotten equipped by us And are out now serving in this way

01:07:26

It's all been to them for absolutely free nothing and that's because you because you partner with us

01:07:33

So every life that has been saved It's been saved through a means and the means is not simply this ministry and Luke and me and Zach and Zach and joy

01:07:43

And the team, you know who all works to put all this together. It's all of us together.

01:07:49

Truly. It's us working together So over the next two months, we're gonna be announcing the plan for 2020 get connected with an abortion now calm with your church get signed up and That's it anything else.

01:07:59

I'm missing. Hopefully. We'll we'll have another trip to Ireland and hopefully Scotland as well

01:08:04

That's right. We're that's in the works that's in the works right now We should probably start settling that in the next couple of days actually

01:08:10

So plan is to go and help the church in Northern Ireland and some in Southern probably. Yes, and Scotland as well near the beginning of next year

01:08:18

So we're working on that trip right now to go bless the church out there to help them to overcome this Evil in their country as well.

01:08:25

Oh, some of you guys are asking too about the 508 I'll just go ahead and give a plug because they were a big help to us

01:08:31

Helping hands outreach Helping hands outreach if you are a pastor and you are a 501c3 right now and you're like, oh no

01:08:40

This isn't safe. This may be used against me if I start preaching against the government and they're you know, unjust things

01:08:47

Then you can switch to the 508. It's actually not a difficult process Just go to helping hands outreach and they will hook you up.

01:08:56

They're good people. They're actually very very helpful and quick and You can switch from the 501c3 to the 508

01:09:02

I think it's a much safer designation for churches it makes more sense in terms of a designation for a church and You don't have the restrictions that the government tried to put with the 501c3 in terms of shut your mouth

01:09:14

Don't speak to these issues Basically, if the government comes in and says in Arizona 501c3s you keep silent.

01:09:22

Don't speak to these issues. We'll say Pound sand. I'm 508 baby. And even if they came and said shut up, we'd say

01:09:28

I must obey God rather than men so either way We're gonna preach the truth. So thank you guys so much for watching today.

01:09:34

That's Luke the bear. Peace out Joy the girl is not here today. I am Jeff the calm of the ninja We'll catch you guys next week right here on Apologia radio.