The Failure of Pro-life Arguments

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Opening the Conversation at the Pro-Life Rally

All right, so I'm Jeff, and I'm a pastor at Apologia Church, and your name is Jesse Gibson. Jesse. Okay, Jesse, so let me see your sign. Choose life.

Why are you here today?

Because well, I'm pro-life. I support I mean I support women's health, but I also support the. You know everyone has a right to be born and to make their own choices in their life, so.

I.

I'm here to support the idea that there should not we should not have institutions that support the Killing of children, and I understand that not everyone believes that they are children. I think that's like the root of the problem right.

You know I don't think all these people are out here because they let they hate children. They're out here because they they don't believe that they are children, and I'm here to stand to say that you know.

They are unborn children are still people. They are still children. They have their own rights.

So how'd you find out about the the rally one of my friends told me about it.

I actually hadn't heard about it until just last night. Okay. Do you go to a church around here? I go to the Newman Center at ASU. What's it called the Newman Center at ASU? What's the Newman Center? It's a it's a Catholic church over at the Newman Center.

Sorry at ASU so University and college. Okay hadn't heard about that.

The Goal of the Pro-Life Movement and the Question of Legislation

So I've been asking The people on the pro-life side today. I'm among the pro-life side of course. How do we end abortion? What do you think is the ultimate goal? What are we trying to get to in terms of legislation?

Like I said, I don't really think that because I think everyone's pro. Most people are pro. Choice as far as like choosing what to do with your own body your own self. Yeah, we all agree with that. Yeah, and everyone is pro.

I don't I think most people aren't actually pro death or pro abortion. They're for the right to choose, but the disconnect is Believing when life is actually life and so I think that's the biggest problem is trying to trying to convince people that you know I come from like a You know I have a medical Background.

I'm not. I'm not a doctor or anything. But so, you know, I had to study the reproductive system things like that.

And.

It's just apparent that if something How am I trying to say this? That when people can't define one specifically a person becomes a person. The viability of a child is getting less and less. My mom actually works in the NICU at st Joe's and what a child is considered being able to be born being able to survive outside.

The womb was Much longer than it is now with medical advancements and so because of that to me what I don't understand is if the idea of viability is moving back farther and farther our People becoming people early and earlier now or is it is a child have worth?

The child has worth after it's born but 50 years ago it didn't have worth at that point.

So I think that the inconsistencies need to get addressed.

Why Caution and Consistency Matter in Defending Unborn Life

Yeah, and it's and and like I said, I I kind of don't like the hate on both sides or I think I don't think. It's constructive. For me, it's let's let's decide. Let's even put religion aside. I am religious, but we can put religion inside and just say like if everyone wants to protect a human they want to protect a life.

When I'd say if you don't know exactly when it becomes like when is viability you don't exactly know. But if you aren't a hundred percent sure Why don't you err on the side of caution when we're talking about an actual life last week?

I was over there talking with the Planned Parenthood Supporters and they acknowledged that it was a child and they said that they should be able to kill their own child. They acknowledge it is a human and I ought to be able to kill it.

What would you say to them because you don't want religion to be a part of the question?

Well, that's.

Okay that.

Okay, see he's he's not a person that agrees that his child he thinks it's a sack of cells. But people that actually agree that it is a child and you should be able to kill it. There's just I Actually don't believe that they believe that because if I said, okay Say we put in a like a one-child policy in America where only you can only have one child.

Like they'd say to say they did that like in China. And they're like well You can have one child and you're able to kill your own child. To so that say you have a woman you want a male or you want a male you want a woman?

And someone said let's you can go kill that child. I'll bet that most of the world would oppose that policy. So if you think that that person's actually that child is actually a child.

I.

Guess I wouldn't know what to say to a person that thinks that you should be able to kill Actual children that you think like if that person is equal if you're saying that that is equal to a five-year-old.

I've been doing this for three years and outside of abortion mills are really around the states and the most common thing I think we get from women going in that are upset that we're there is. They're saying I know it's a baby I'm allowed to kill my baby.

Or.

The Planned Parenthood supporters over there when you get to the bottom of the science that from the moment of conception it has all the Biological components of a human being has its own distinct DNA.

It's it's the you that you are now just small and not fully developed. What they'll typically do is when you get through the science you get to the bedrock. They'll say yeah, I know it's a human and I ought to be able to kill it.

The Need for a Consistent Christian Basis Against Abortion

What I mean is and I just think in terms of what we should think as pro-lifers about consistency. I hear that often that we just you know. Take take religion out of the question for a minute take Jesus out of the question for a minute.

When we do that I think we lose the foundation of ultimately being able to say Because God says image of God and you shall not murder. Because ultimately the secularists will say I can kill it. Anyway, I don't care.

No, and honestly, I I feel in religion and stating your religion is important. Yeah, I just think it's so it's for me. It's so much of an easier argument to make from a biological Standpoint because when you're fighting a from a religious standpoint, you're fighting the idea of religion and you're fighting the idea of abortion.

Whereas when you're fighting just the idea of abortion, you can just focus on medical.

Don't you think that the religious question and the scientific question are really intertwined. Oh, of course. Yeah, and it's just.

It's it's sometimes it can be hard to argue one when because there's no common ground there like some people they they're complete atheists. They don't believe that there's any higher powers and right there's any like soul.

And so it's sometimes it's hard to say what well this child has a soul. That's why we should protect it if they don't believe in a soul. And they don't believe in it, right?

What Laws Should Say About Abortion

Well, let me ask you just and just do this quickly. So if we were to work together as a pro-life movement on and how do we actually speak to our legislators? What do we want them to put on the books?

What what should be on the books in any state across the country in terms of abortion. The abortion questions? Is it murder?

I think of course it's murder okay, and I think that's the biggest problem is people don't define it as murder because there are people like what you're talking about who Are like fine. I think it's a child.

I think they just are so So hard into their beliefs that they will not relent to the fact that they shouldn't be able to have an abortion. That's right. So I do think it should be. I think when one way we can really start is there isn't there's true like that a lot of.

Like Planned Parenthood is considered a woman's Center. There's a woman's Center going up over here if we had a lot more of those options. There's there's a lot less of the argument for Planned Parenthood.

So if we had if there were there were a little non abortion clinics that offered all the women's services all around the country. There's much less that you can actually say. Yeah, right because most of these people are saying that you know women's health.

It's all about women's women's ability to like have affordable health care. Yeah, so I think that's and my opinion I think that would be like the first stance the first first step is create those so that there is less of a not.

An argument there but in terms of the legislation, we do want it to be called murder. Oh, yes. Okay, so the abortionist would be charged with murder if he if he if it's against the law on Wednesday and he can he does it on Thursday.

We want him to be charged with murder. Yes, how about the woman?

Gosh it's so hard because I want to be charitable to people and I want people to feel like even if they do something like 100 But I do think like if it was if legislation was saying that abortion is murder and you commit an abortion then.

It just logically follows that you are murder. Yes. Oh, yeah, and I think that's I appreciate you saying that because I think one of The the personally the failures of the pro-life move in the last 40 years is isn't it's inconsistency on this particular point?

As we say in our huddles, this is murder. It's against God's law. It's murder. Science displays human being. God's Word says you should not murder but then we go to our legislators and we nibble around the edges of abortion and we say No cleaner abortion facilities and take away this tool when in reality what we're what we ought to be saying to legislators so that they can actually Put law down is human being to kill it.

It's murder. Anybody who does it is murder. The legislators would understand that well.

The Double Homicide Question and the Logic of Personhood

And what I don't really understand is for a long time the idea of a double homicide when you kill a pregnant woman. I don't understand how you can have that and it. Really what you're saying is the intention of that woman to have the child is what made it a child, right?

But that if you are trying to take God of the equation that makes no sense.

So wonderful. You've been awesome, man.