#65 Dr. Joseph Miller's Response to Dr. Boyd's View on Open Theism

Couple questions about free will. Do we really have it or is God in control? If God really lets evil happen, how can he do that and love us anyways?

How does our knowledge come to us with free will? How can God be relational and responsible without limiting his knowledge?

How do you reconcile God's goodness with things like abuse and trial and genocide? How can a wise and loving

God allow suffering? If the God of open fears is the God, he cannot promise me he'll wipe away every tear because he doesn't know.

That is a very hard thing to hold in both hands. Hello, hello.

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A couple of questions about free will. Do we really have it or is God in control? And if we do or don't, if God really lets evil happen, how can he do that and love us anyways?

If you remember in the past, we've had discussions about open theism with Dr. Greg Boyd. And a lot of you reached out with more questions than answers, as it was a very confusing topic.

If you haven't heard it, go back and listen to it. It was eye -opening. But today I'm going to show you a different perspective, one that's going to defend a more familiar, classical, all -knowing, all -wise view of God.

Today I have a returning guest, Dr. Joseph Miller. You are the Associate Professor of Christian Worldview at Grand Canyon University.

You do have a love that's reflected in your diverse educational background. You've studied engineering, theology, philosophy, and ethics, and you bring an interdisciplinary approach to big theological questions because you're a pastor, you're an author, you're a speaker, and you're a leading defender of a new concept

I've never heard before, but maybe some are more familiar with, which is called omnisapient theism.

I knew that I would mess that up. Omnisapient, yeah, that's right. It's a big, fancy word. Okay, well, this is going to push back against open theism that we've heard before.

I'm very excited to hear more about this. Welcome to the show, Dr. Miller. Well, it's good to be back,

Cassian, and I appreciate you having me to talk about this. I know when we kind of connected and reached out and this idea came up,

I was pleased you're interested in it because I do think it's something that can be, this idea of omnisapience, which we'll get into, is super helpful, helpful to my students in understanding who

God is and how he deals with us. So I'm looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, I wanted to reach out because in March through your sub stack, you released an article that says

God's omnisapient to the problem of evil. And its response to open theism was challenging because when

Greg spoke about it, it was eye -opening. This concept that we have some sort of free will that God doesn't know which one will choose, but once we make a decision, he knows exactly how it'll play out.

And it was this fine line between we have choice that maybe God doesn't know fully about, but once we do make that decision, he co -creates with us.

And we did have a discussion afterwards about simple foreknowledge with Pauletti, his friend.

And so I feel like this conversation takes it one level deeper, as far as what are the key issues that any

Sunday school Christian like myself wouldn't even be aware of, but it's a beautiful way for us to explore this faith with an expert that knows what he's talking about, because I'm going to be drowning in this knowledge.

So I'm really excited to get into it. How did you come to know more about this subject?

Is this something that just piqued your interest, or was this like a focus of your study? So yeah, when

I explore the nature of God, as a matter of fact, I don't know if you've ever seen, I have like a bunch of five -minute videos, and one video I do is on the nature of God.

And one of those, we all talked about the omnis of God, right? The omnibenevolence, like he's all -loving, or omnipresent, he's all -present, right?

All these omnis of God. And I think one of the most neglected ones is this idea of omnisapience, which just means wisdom.

It's just a word for wisdom. And the only reason I put it as an omni is because I wanted to shove it back into the way we do our, the way we think about the nature of God.

And sometimes you've got to use an unusual word to get people's attention so that they don't just gloss over a thought.

So I'm not a big fan of using a lot of the big words. It's not like I do it just to be, you know, ah, look how smart I am.

But I do think sometimes you throw a word out like that, and somebody pauses because they haven't heard it, and it makes them want to think about it.

And so I've looked at that nature of God. I have a great five -minute video that summarizes some of these concepts that we'll be talking about today.

Separately from that, you know, the concept of open theism. I go back to my seminary days, and there's a lot of people that advocate for an open theism or a process theology.

And there's all kinds of problems that arise with that sort of framework for understanding

God, albeit I think the goal might be to do some positive things in helping us understand suffering and evil.

But for me, the idea of wisdom is so fundamental to understanding the problem of evil and actually to solving that problem that I think open theism creates more problems than it solves.

And so that's sort of my inroad to this. Okay, so how does omnisapience,

I'm really going to try to delicately tread, which by the way, if I knew big words like that, I'd be using them.

So I don't think there's any shame in saying I know this. You can just say, ah, God's wisdom, if you want. I'll use your shorthand.

It's just like, you're all wise. Yeah, you've earned it, all right? You're the expert here. Okay, so omnisapience, how, like in simple terms, if somebody hasn't listened to the

Greg Boyd episode, what is, how does it differ from open theism? Yeah, so the way

I want to frame this, and I kind of want to point out, because what are the big issues at stake?

And I want to outline six problems created by open theism.

And then I'm not going to defend those or explain those because there's a lot, and I don't want to overwhelm people with all those things, but I felt like I'm just going to rip the

Band -Aid off. Here's six problems I see. And then I want to give you my definition of omnisapience and how it relates to the full nature of God.

And then I think as we go through and you ask your questions, you know, once you rip the

Band -Aid off, it'll be a lot easier to kind of go back and examine, okay, what actually just happened right there? So I think that will make it make more sense in the end.

At least I hope so. So people bear with this. So here's the six sort of interconnected problems that we have with open theism.

First, Genesis, we're left with the idea that Genesis 1 is wrong because God's creation is neither good nor very good, right?

So the idea that God made is good and very good, that actually ends up being not really true in an open theistic system.

Second, God's character is morally compromised. We're going to go back and tread through these slightly, right? Yes, and I'll give specific verses.

I'm going to give examples of these. And as you ask each question, I know you're going to have along the way,

I think all of these will be defensible or understandable at least to people, at least as they try to process this.

So again, second, I think God's character is morally compromised. Third, with open theism, the truth of scripture, specifically prophecy, is undermined.

And I've got some examples from even Boyd's stuff that I think makes this clear. Fourth, the gospel of Jesus Christ ceases to be good news.

And that's a big one. That one's like, I worried about when I'm writing this down, like, oh no, I'm going to lose people right from the start. But again,

I'm just going to rip the bandaid off. This is going to be spicy. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Fifth, I think

God's promise of comfort in the midst of trial and suffering is basically just left with an empty emotionalism.

And that's a big one. And then sixth, of course, our hope of future and eternal restoration is lost. Those are six big claims.

And again, I think we can unpack those. Now in contrast, the way I would say it is my argument, which sets the stage for omnisapience, right?

Which I just means all wise. It just simply means God knows how to navigate the problems and challenges of life.

That's what wisdom is, right? It's not knowledge. Knowledge is information. Wisdom is the ability to use that information, okay?

That's how those two ideas come together. So if God is omniscient and he knows all things and he's all wise, he knows how to navigate any circumstances for some great purpose.

And this leads us to sort of the five omnis, because I don't think you can divorce them like an open theist does this.

I'll say, well, God is all loving. He's omnibenevolent, but he's not all knowing. And I think that's where we end up losing the biblical nature of who

God is, because you can't divorce God from his holistic picture of what the

Bible creates. Here's the way I do it in sort of an informal argument. And again, you might want to link to a little five minute video

I have on this. There's a visual that might help some people. Yeah, I'll make sure you get that later.

So if Yahweh is omnipotent, all powerful, he has the power to make any possible world.

And if Yahweh is omnipresent, he can have a relationship with every single person.

And if Yahweh is omniscient, he knows the heart, mind, and deeds of every person.

And if Yahweh is omnisapient, this is the wise part, he can orchestrate the best means to the best ends.

And the fifth one is if Yahweh is omnibenevolent, all loving, his deeds will inspire love for him and for others.

And then the conclusion I go from that is that Yahweh created the best possible world and he offers every person the best opportunity to worship and enjoy him forever.

And that's the big picture, the two contrasts that I have. And so this idea, then the big open theism, then centers really on the omnibenevolence, the all loving nature of God, but limits or outright denies the other four omnis in some way.

There's a guy named Clark Pinnock, who was the first guy I ever came across before Boyd. He predates Boyd.

I came across him when I was doing my seminary days. He said this in his book, Augustine to Arminius.

He says, quote, the God of the Bible displays an openness to the future, i .e. an ignorance of the future that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate.

So again, this is the idea that God is ignorant about the future. He doesn't know the future.

And they do this essentially to preserve God's moral character, but really that's in like either personal standards or modern social standards.

And this is my setup. And I know that's a lot. I apologize for the big sort of monologue there, but I think that big picture will hopefully make sense of the specific questions you have in mind for today.

Okay. I don't know where to even place that. It's hard for me as a

Christian to even take that in and be like, I agree or disagree because the God that I know is all loving.

The God that I know is all wise, but there's this element of free will.

And I think that's just like where we begin. I'm like, that's where open theism makes sense because of free will. Yeah, absolutely.

That's where we are able to entertain open theism, not because we're trying to undermine God in any way. So that's why you're here.

It's to kind of point out the flaws in that logical thinking. Yes. And we do have to make sense of that, at least the best that we can.

What about free will, our choice in the matter? And open theism, they have some good motives,

I think. I'm not gonna go against their motives or desires to understand. They're trying to struggle with the same questions all of us struggle with, but I just think their answer creates more problems than it solves.

Okay, given that, if you think that it is so wrong, why do you think that open theism even appeals to modern

Christians, aside from just being able to balance this idea of free will? Yeah, I think there's a lot of, in a positive sense, there's several reasons that I think in my conversations with people who are persuaded or open to open theism, if you will,

I think it appeals to our dislike of arrogance and the sort of pharisaical leadership in some evangelical circles.

I think there's a people that exude this sort of open confidence of like, oh, I didn't have all the answers.

And we know something is wrong with that instinctively. And I think open theism tries to deal with that hubris, the arrogance that we find in certain people.

I think it appeals to our need for justice. We see injustice in the world. We see bad things, whether it be racism or just natural disasters or anything, and we wanna have an answer to it and a

God who will deal with that. So there's an open theism appeals to that desire, that need for justice.

I think it appeals to our desire to share the love of God, exemplified in Christ. It puts Christ at the center in a very positive way, in a very healthy way.

And it says, if Christ is love, then I wanna love in that same way. I think it makes an appeal to that.

And I think it makes an appeal to our search for significance because it gives a big picture narrative, a view of life.

And it's trying to make that big picture view. And it's trying to use that big picture to explain the details of free will, free choice, sovereignty, providence, all those sort of things.

So those are the positive ones. And the negative side, I think it appeals more to a postmodern denial of absolute, of absoluteness and of truth.

I think it has an appeal to our sense of autonomy, of self -reliance that we can sort of be the determiners of stuff.

And I think it honestly appeals to our need for control. It's sort of the irony. On the one side, it rejects the hubris, the arrogance of the fair, sacral leadership that we kind of see.

But it also makes an appeal to, oh wait, I can then have a control of my own destiny, which is sort of an ironic twist.

And when you said arrogance, that's when it like clicked for me. I'm like, yeah, we wanna play a role in God. Like how we make a decision that God reacts to.

It almost is like the upper hand that we don't wanna acknowledge. So I can absolutely see that.

But there are still elements about God that are relational, that are responsive to us.

We are taught as we grow up in the church that this is our father that wants to have a relationship with us.

And so when it comes to co -creating, that's where a relationship takes place, not just God ordains everything and we are simply just experiencing it.

So is there a way that we can have this relationship without limiting his knowledge through that open theistic view?

Absolutely. And I think you phrased that very well as we have a role to play. And I think there are a lot of systems of thought, systematic theologies.

There's a lot of philosophies that sort of take us out of the equation. And I think they do that to the detriment of scripture.

So yes, God can still be all knowing. He can still be all wise. And we can still have this relational piece.

And I actually think this is where open theism, this is one of the flaws I see. I think as a matter of fact, I'd argue that the

God of open theism is no longer relational and responsive to the problems we face, at least not in the way the

Bible promises. I think it wants us to have this relational God, but the

God of the Bible responds in a way that is purposeful, that is meaningful, that is his sovereignty, that he's guiding us, right?

They want us to avoid this problem of evil, protect God from moral guilt in the evil that happens.

But this God is being blind to the future, just like you and I are blind to the future. And that makes the problem even worse.

Because if God doesn't have wisdom and his choices are like your choices or my choices, then

God's blindness leads to unintended consequences that actually can increase suffering. God can actually make choices that don't end up the way he had hoped they would end up.

And he can make things worse. Right? So there's a book, just one example of this, Openness of God.

It's by a guy named David Bassinger. He's an open theist. He writes this, since God does not necessarily know exactly what will happen in the future, it is always possible that even that which

God in his unparalleled wisdom believes to be the best course of action at any given time may not produce the anticipated result in the long run.

So God is making choices like, hey, I've got this plan and I'm going to put something into place, but oh gosh,

I didn't see that coming. I made it worse. That's the God of open theism.

Yeah. And that doesn't really seem like an all -knowing God to me. Yeah. And he's not the father

God. I'm glad you brought that up, the idea of God, the Abba, the father. That biblical imagery is powerful.

It's so important to us. And I think that's an appeal we have. We want this deep relationship.

But if the father of open theism, he's not a father who makes choices that guide us into a sure future, right?

He's not a father that has the wisdom to take us down the road. He ends up being like the father of our teenage years where everything you say is wrong.

Oh my gosh, right? You don't know anything, dad, right? That's the

Abba of open theism. He's just the God of our teenage years who is really just as clueless as we are about the future, who just pretends to have this sort of wisdom.

Let me give you one example of Genesis. This is really... Yeah, let's go to scripture. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is an example of where I said prophecy doesn't become anything but God's best guess.

It's not really a promise, it's just the God's guess. So think of the story of Joseph. Genesis chapter 50, right?

Is where we'll pick up the story. But remember this is Joseph sold into slavery, goes to Potiphar's house, put in prison, dreams come,

God gives him the interpretation. God says, hey, there will be years of plenty.

There'll be seven years of plenty, seven years of famine, right? God's prophesying these future realities. Yeah. And here's what

God says when his brothers discover that, hey, brother's not dead, all this good stuff, right?

He says, Joseph said to his brothers, do not fear. I'm not gonna do to you what you did to me.

I'm not gonna put you in jail. I'm not gonna kill you. For am I in the place of God? As for you, you met evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today.

So think of the interplay of what's really happening in that. One, God knew the future. He knew what would happen.

He knew his brothers would sell him to slavery. He knew Potiphar's wife would accuse Joseph of rape or attempted rape, right?

He knew all of these things would happen. Yet God was able to put all of the events, even their choices, which they meant for evil.

So they're morally culpable for their evil choice, but God put it together for good so that many would be alive today who would have otherwise starved to death.

This is the interplay of the five omnis of God and why his love has to be connected with his knowledge and his wisdom.

Would one argue though that like in the open theistic view where there's many decisions that can be made and God knows how each decision can play out, just not which decision we'll make.

Is there an element there of somebody made a decision that played out in that way of all of it working together for the glory of the

Lord? And God knew that once that decision was made that it would play out in that way.

Does that make sense? Am I saying that in a way that makes sense? Yeah, I know what you're saying, but what we end up saying is in effect is, well, but then

God had to know in his probabilistic knowledge, it's philosophical now. Well, 98 % chance this will happen, but there's still a 2 % chance that it won't.

So what if Joseph said, hey brothers, I know God wanted something good here and you matter for evil, but I'm really mad so I'm gonna kill you.

He could have chosen that according to open theism. He could have chosen to slaughter his brothers, but then

God's promise that Abraham through his descendants, all nations be blessed, isn't fulfilled. So God couldn't really make the promise to Abraham that all those things would happen.

All God was doing is saying, hey Abraham, I hope this really happens. And if you choose the right things, then my promise is gonna be true.

But it's not really a promise at that point. It's God's best guess that this is what will happen. Interesting.

Okay, okay. So based off that scripture with Joseph, and I'm sure there's more.

Do you have more? It's just, it's support. That's all for now. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go through the whole

Bible. I think that's a good example. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. No, I think that's the other verse

I wanna point out here, because I think as we go through, and we explore the questions that'll come up,

I know that you've got a lot of good ones coming up here. We'll kind of have verse by verse, and just give some clear examples of,

I think, where in my own sort of time preparing for this conversation,

I think the reason I wanted to open up even the way I did was, sort of tearing off the Band -Aid is,

I think there's such an interconnectedness to all of these ideas that when our philosophy or our theology tries to pull apart the nature of God, we see where the scripture starts to fall apart, because all of these ideas are interwoven together.

So this is why it's so hard and overwhelming. We're trying to pull apart this piece, that piece, that piece, but scripture doesn't do that, right?

It puts it all into one big thing. So I think as we go through each question and each concept, I think we'll be able to tease out different elements, as opposed to trying to treat them as independent.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So let's just go for the big one. How does foreknowledge coexist with free will?

I think the main issue here with open theism versus simple foreknowledge is free will.

So in your, how does foreknowledge, the one that you believe in, how does that exist with free will?

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Take a breath, slow down, and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. Yeah, so I think there's a couple of ways

I can illustrate this that might be helpful. And then we'll look at some specific verses that how they go, how all these things work together.

Think of the idea of foreknowledge and free will as maybe like a jazz musician, right?

Have you ever listened to jazz music? Are you a fan of jazz? I don't know. Do you like jazz music? So when you look at jazz music, you've got one person who plays a piano and then another person joins in on a guitar or the bass, or they have the saxophone or whatever other instrument.

But none of them know exactly what the other person is doing, but they can sort of improvise as they go, right?

And the only reason that works though is because they understand chord progressions. They understand how music should sound.

There's a structure to it. And inside that structure, inside that framework, they can improvise and be creative.

The other example I think of is God as a weaver, right? That if God is, he's able to take all the threads and think of our lives as like these little threads.

When somebody weaves a tapestry, you put all these things together. And if you look at it from the back end, it's just a mass of tangles and knots and you see all these like uncut threads.

But when you flip the tapestry around, you see, oh my gosh, there's this amazing piece of artwork.

And God can be an analogous, what I would put foreknowledge and free will in this same sense, that God has built a structure, his ordinances, his laws, his commands have set the stage.

And we get to make a lot of choices in the midst of that. And the choices where we have these sort of freedom, like say, if I choose the red shirt today or the black shirt, that kind of stuff.

None of that challenges his ultimate plan or purpose, the ultimate structure of the universe, the way he's planned our lives.

And where he has ordained certain things, I'm okay with God leading us to certain things or actually manipulating circumstances and controlling that.

And I do think I'm okay with him saying, yeah, he just knows our character and nature well and he knows what decisions we'll make beforehand.

I think it's an all of the above menu for God, not just one or the other.

Does that kind of help make sense where I'm at going on this? It does. And it's so funny that it does because Dr.

Boyd also used the analogy of a tapestry when describing open theism. I listened to your thing, yeah.

A cone knitting of it. But the way that you frame it of like, our ultimate, all the above, the times that he directly intervenes, this divine intervention versus the choices that we make, he's already aware of them.

He already knows what that tapestry is going to look like and how the times that he intervened versus the times that we thought we were leading, but he was leading us to that water, whatever it might be.

Yeah, the weaver has to know. That's where his use of that thing, I think, fails. And the weaver has to know.

The weaver has to have a clear plan or else the front end looks as bad as the back end. You get a lion with three eyes or something.

It can't work. So there's freedom within limits. How little, we don't even need to know what the tapestry is.

What is this obsession? Because my next question is like, okay, well, if God already knows what we're going to choose, if God already knows what the tapestry is going to look like, then are we even free at all?

Which is so ego -driven. Why does that even matter that I need to ask that? Full surrender is like,

I don't actually want to be in charge of a tapestry. But it is a question. Does free will exist then?

Yes. So this is, you know, does it exist?

There's our challenge, right? I think for me, one of the ways that's helped me think through this over the years is that I'll make a distinction between free will, which is our capacity to choose, and our free choice, which is the specific act of choosing.

So we're responsible for our choices. But in truth, our capacity to choose, according to passages like John 8, 34, are bound by sin.

We're slaves to sin. So we actually don't have a free will in that sense.

Our will has never been free. It's the illusion of freedom that actually we have.

So this is what's so important. I think this is why open theism, it's asking a good question.

It's the question we ask, but the question is flawed in its premise, because it assumes that without God controlling, that we're absolute autonomous creatures, but we've never been autonomous.

Not from the moment we were created. Our very existence is contingent on the thoughts, the nature of God thinking about us.

And think about the beauty of that. Even at the cross of Christ, you know, He's there hanging on the cross for our sin.

And He's the God who sustains, He's the creator God who sustains the world by His very thoughts, right?

And if He would have ceased to think about us, we would cease to exist. He didn't have to call angels down to free

Him. He could just say, I'm going to stop thinking about these soldiers. And they would have ceased to exist in that moment because He is

God and the sustainer of all things. So our existence has always been contingent on God.

Yet somehow in that contingency, our full dependence on God, He has made us with the capacity to choose.

But when we chose to rebel, Adam and Eve, garden, tree, knowledge, all that kind of stuff, then our free will was bound, not by our nature created as image bearers, but our nature corrupted by sin, right?

And so this is the beauty of the gospel. Remember I said at the beginning, like, you know, the nature of the gospel gets corrupted.

So Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, it says, for by grace you have been saved through faith. This is not your own doing.

It is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one can boast. For we are

His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

In other words, all the good deeds that we should do, God has known from the foundation of the world and He prepared them for us and we still have to choose to walk in them.

And so there's that relationship. There's that back and forth of the weaver, the jazz musician kind of thing.

It's all going together. Somehow they coexist and we're responsible, yet God is still sovereign.

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Thank you so much. Now back to the show. This is like backflips in my head.

This is a difficult conversation. Watch all of us. Okay. Well, okay.

There's a couple of things I really want to hit in this conversation. And I feel like we're talking about free will, but then there's salvation, there is suffering, and then there's the mystery of God and he'll reveal the things that he's meant to reveal at that time.

So I want to spend the rest of our time hitting those three points. Okay. So salvation.

I love talking about salvatic questions just because they simply love saying that word. I think it's so fun. So there's a grander concept here of the

Calvinist and the Armenian debate of God chooses. The Calvinist debate is God chooses who's going to go to heaven or hell.

He chooses who's going to go home to him because he's all powerful. He's all in control. But is it a really loving

God if he chooses that my future child is going to go to hell? I don't believe in a

God that would want that. That doesn't align with the characteristics that I've seen while reading the Bible. Armenian is more so that we choose.

I mean, hold my hand in this. Does God choose us or do we choose him?

Sure. So just to give some clarity, so there are different strains of Calvinists as there are different strains of Armenian folks.

There's this idea of predestination, God choose us, whatever. There's a thing called double predestination, which means that God chooses us for salvation, but he also chooses some for hell.

A lot of Calvinists would reject the latter. In other words, no one's created specifically for the purpose of going to hell.

So a lot of Calvinists would reject that. So that sort of is a bit of a strawman that some

Armenians will use. And not all Armenians will.

Even as your discussion with Dr. Boyd pointed out, open theism is sort of a subset of Arminianism, but it doesn't have to go the full way, right?

So not all Armenians would even agree with him. So some of this is really not a Calvinist versus Arminian debate.

There are certainly interplays to that, how we're going to answer it. But open theism is sort of, it's a subset of Arminianism, but both,

I think all Calvinists and probably a vast majority of Armenians would disagree with the

God, sort of a little open theism. So I don't want us to boil it down to just Arminian versus Calvinism.

And I don't mind talking about that, but I just wanted to kind of bring out that little sub point in there, that it's not quite as stark as that.

Does that make sense before I go on? Absolutely. I'm definitely coupling a bigger argument into this conversation.

I understand that open theism is kind of like on the spectrum of Calvinism. Doesn't fall within Calvinism and isn't specifically open theism, but it's leaning more towards that side.

Yeah, I would put open theism on the one far end of the spectrum of the far side of Arminianism.

I put the double predestination this on the other far end of the spectrum. And then the

Calvin and Arminian, the vast majority lives somewhere closer to the middle. And not that their differences aren't real.

It's just that there's two extremes there. And I think both fall out of the pale of orthodoxy, if you will, right?

Of what would be biblical, sound biblical theology. But I think we can be

Arminian and Calvinist and have some disagreements. I grew up in a Wesleyan tradition.

I went to a Pentecostal charismatic seminary. I was ordained in a

Wesleyan denomination called Christian Missionary Alliance, which is out of the tradition. I ended up planting a couple of Baptist churches.

I participate in a reformed church right now. And so I think there's beauty in a lot of these traditions.

And I think sometimes their language differences more than their substance differences. And so I want to have that sort of look at it as we approach this.

But I would put the double predestination, the thing you bring up as a source of problem, I would reject as the double predestination side.

And in the same breath, I would reject the sort of the God of open theism. Okay, got it.

Okay. So we don't have to focus on this then if you don't think it is, but I think it's more so the predestination and like the choice that God is deciding versus us co -creating.

Yeah. Do you feel like there's room for that here in this simple foreknowledge of this tapestry that God is seeing this?

Or do you think it's a moot point to even focus on in this conversation? Yeah, it's a really good question.

I think that I'm okay personally with the idea that in a salvific sense, let's put it this way, in a sense of salvation,

I look at God's predestination both collective and individual.

So I think Romans talks about a collective predestination. In other words, God knew that when he created a free human race that could freely choose to love and worship that they would rebel and he had a plan of salvation that is the cross of Christ from the moment before even the foundations of the world.

He knew that there'd be a rescue plan in place and that all of us are predestined to salvation not by works, not by our choice because we couldn't choose

God even if we wanted to unless Christ died for us, right?

In other words, if I'm drowning in the middle of an ocean and there's no lifeboat, I can't choose to jump on a lifeboat that doesn't exist.

So in that sense, I think there's a collective predestination that God has said, okay,

I'm sending the lifeboat because I know that... So now we can choose in a sense to join the lifeboat but only because God chose to give us that option.

I'm also fine with, and I do struggle with this, but I'm also fine with God when he says,

Jacob, I love you, so I hated those sort of passages. If God has preordained somehow that certain individuals would come to faith for whatever certain circumstances or some wouldn't,

I'm okay with it, I'm just not okay with it, right? I struggle with that, but I have to...

Kind of like... Good. Like we have to consider like God let Judas do what he did.

Yeah, I find it hard. And this is the something I think we'll talk about too is like,

I have to be careful that I don't become an idolater.

In other words, I don't remake God in the image that I think God should be made in. I have to take

God as the Bible reveals him. And I think open theism makes sort of an idolatrous move, if I can use that kind of a strong word, because what we're saying is, well,

I can't worship a God that would do this. Okay, as soon as we get to that point, that becomes very problematic, especially when it's something the

Bible says is true about that God. So I think God is a just God, I think

God is a morally good God, but it doesn't mean I understand the choices that God will make or how it's always fair.

But I do trust that God is fair. Think of it like when we're kids, right? When your parents say, no, you can't go out, it's late and there's people drinking on New Year's Eve, whatever, but I wanna drive,

I know how to drive, right? We can say to our parents, you're unfair, you don't love me, you hate me, right?

And then later in life, you look back and say, oh, you've got kids and you're looking down, oh my gosh, I totally see it now, like I just became my dad or I just became my mom, because you realize they had some wisdom there that seemed unloving, that seemed like, why won't you let me have the third cookie?

I think open theism makes that mistake, not by intention, because there's a natural desire, we want justice, right?

But we want it in our terms, in our way. And I have to be, as a believer, willing to say, okay, here's what the scripture says, it's not to me to reinterpret that based on my moral convictions or my moral preferences,

I have to take it for what it is. And sometimes that means I just have to rest with not knowing.

That's where I come down in some of this stuff. I don't wanna over systematize what I just have to accept what scripture says, but I can't always fill in the blanks.

So it's not really our job to look at Judas and be like bad guy. God looked at that and said, part of the plan.

It's part of the plan? He foreordained it, he orchestrated it, yet Judas is morally culpable for the sin that he committed.

Very difficult. And it was a free choice that he made. Very difficult, very difficult. But one directed by God. Yeah, that is a very hard thing to hold in both hands.

I agree. And this is where, again, if we trust the

Abba father that you brought up at the beginning, is God really our father? Is he really our daddy who has ordained and planned and purposed our life and the way that we should go?

Then if he is, I have to realize that I'm like that little, maybe teenager in the rebellious years or maybe just more like the clueless toddler.

I don't fully understand why it's bad not to touch the stove. I just gotta trust my dad when he says it, that he's not trying to keep me from having fun.

Think about that's the core sin of Adam and Eve, right? Satan goes to Eve and says, did God really say that this would be bad for you?

Look how beautiful this tree is. It must be good for you. Maybe God is keeping something from you.

Maybe he's keeping the best from you. God really doesn't know what he's talking about when he says this is gonna harm you.

The temptation of the devil in some ways is this, that God doesn't know the consequences of what will happen.

He's just telling you something that he himself is clueless about.

And Eve says, oh, that makes sense. It does look great. It does look beautiful. And then she gives in to that temptation and sin comes into the world.

And so that's what I, in my mind, this is where I have to wrestle with. And again, I'm not trying to say this is an easy answer.

Sometimes the right answers are the most difficult answers. And it doesn't mean that in moments of trial or hardship that I don't wrestle with,

God, how is that fair? God, how can this be true? Why would this not happen? I still have to trust what the scripture tells me is true about God and then let the chips fall where they may.

I want to say that even this conversation is like, going back to like, Judas is culpable for his decisions in a realm that God preordained.

It's like, I still believe that God's all loving. Like, I still believe that God, like, I believe that God looks at Judas and says, you did the wrong thing for the right reason because I wanted you to.

And like, that defies the rules that I have basically set up in this game of life, but it needed to happen.

And I will honor that. And I don't, I'm not basing this in scripture, but like, that's a loving God that I believe in.

And I'm really, I'm really just trying to justify this to defend my faith here. So, do you think, let me ask you this to just try to understand how you process that then.

So would that mean that you would think that no one will ever be separated from God from eternity?

Do you think that concept of heaven and hell is not a biblical one? In other words, is salvation universal?

That all are saved just because God is, God's love will save everybody in the end? That sort of the raw, bellish love will win?

Is that where you kind of, This is the nth degree that we take it to. Absolutely.

It's a fair question. It makes me think that sometimes we have to do the wrong thing for the right reasons.

And I think God will honor us in the role that it played for God's will to play out. But there are also decisions where we don't choose

God. There is a choice and it's against God. And I think that God also recognizes what's in our heart.

The conversations that I've had over the time with scholars, it's God looks at our heart. And so I'm choosing

God or I'm not choosing God. And we could look at the heart of Judas in that moment and say he was actively choosing against God or he was confused.

He didn't know what he was doing, right? When he realizes what he does, he tries to return the coins. And so in my just in this one specific example of Judas, I'm just really trying to, you know, just that one.

It's like Judas probably had no idea what he was doing. He was trying to do the best thing he knew.

And then once he realized how bad it was, he immediately felt guilt. And I think, I don't know. I'm just talking.

Maybe God says, I know that was confusing for you. And like on paper, that was the wrong thing, but it needed to happen.

And so the loving God that I know isn't going to say, but, you know, legalistically, you broke the rules.

So you got to go out that door, whatever it might mean. So, yeah,

I guess what I would say in response to that, there's a couple of things that I think are getting kind of smooshed together there that I want to pull, tease apart a little bit so that we're not kind of just collapsing all the things into one conclusion.

First is that does God know our hearts and does he judges what we can't, you or I can't see, right?

So, you know, you get this question in a pastoral sense. You know, my grandma's dying and she rejected

God her whole life. Does that mean she's in hell? I have no idea. I do know that what the scripture is clear, that without Christ, there is no salvation.

And to deny Christ means an eternity apart from God. Now, in the last moments when her eyes are fading and she can't speak and maybe her body's shutting down, does she say, oh, like the thief on the cross is like, hey, this is, you're my savior.

You know, whoa, I want that. Maybe she has that internal moment of regret.

Is it possible we have figures in the Bible that we only see the outside and they're telling, you know, like the sin of Judas and does he repent and then kill himself or what?

I don't know. I don't have a need to even judge those things on an individual basis.

To save or preserve the fairness or love of God. But I do know that love has to align with the holiness of God, just like God's judgment has to align with the holiness of God.

There's a second five -minute video, maybe I'll encourage folks to listen to, talking about God's mercy or love is not an injustice.

In other words, love can never be a form of evil. Love has to align with the holiness of God or it ceases to be love, right?

And so because we are sin and separated from God, God's justice,

God's holiness demands that we are separate from him. No matter what our motive is, no matter what those things are, if we're driven by sin, all those other things, our sin, our choice to sin is still sin.

It separates us. This is the purpose of Christ on the cross, that he then takes our sin, he becomes our sacrifice on our behalf to give forgiveness of those sins.

And so at the point of the cross, we have both God's love and his judgment against sin in this one perfect moment, right?

And at that one moment, we see both of those things. So we can't ever say, oh,

God is this loving God with also acknowledging God is a God of judgment. And only where those two meet, love and judgment together in God's holiness, do they make sense.

Even if it's beyond our comprehension, we cannot, it subverts that holiness of God if we say, well,

God loves and therefore he just is gonna forgive everything because he's just gonna give us the benefit of the doubt. Well, he does judge in ways we don't understand, but I can't dismiss what the scripture says.

Hebrews talks about the consequences of sin. Book of Revelation talks about these things. I don't wanna so err on that side that I exclude the other pieces to God's nature.

Yeah, right, yeah. It's just something that kind of came up for me. So thanks for exploring that with me for a second.

Bit of a tangent. Oh, I appreciate that. Can I give an example of that? One other example, a biblical one. And this one comes from Boyd in himself.

And here's the danger of not being cautious about that. So in his book,

I don't know if I touched it, it's like a massive volume. But he talks about, it's his book on the

Old Testament, the crucifixion of the warrior God. He kind of goes through, he talks about the cross of Christ is the center of how he reinterprets all the text, which has a couple of valid meanings and I think one invalid meaning, but that's a little bit beyond this show.

But what he says is that the Old Testament prophets really weren't, when they'd say, thus saith the

Lord, they weren't really, God wasn't really speaking in that. They were really just reflecting their cultural perception of God.

And because he values that definition of love above all the other attributes, it shows what his quote, his willingness to repudiate and renounce the

Old Testament. That's what he says in his book. He's willing to repudiate and renounce what the Old Testament teaches about God.

Specifically, there's no way that God could have commanded Israel to conquer this nation, the

Canaanites or whatever, because that's a God he can't envision. That's a God of mass killing and genocide.

And so therefore, the prophets, when they said, thus, when the prophet says, thus saith the Lord, it actually wasn't the

Lord speaking, which means the scripture is not telling us something true about God. It's only telling us something true about how the

Israelites perceived God within their ancient context. So this is the problem we have.

If we go this route, it's not just about our preferences. What do we do with the scripture that goes against our feelings or our desire for putting love at the center?

We end up having to dismiss a lot of truths about God. Yeah, that makes sense.

That makes sense. Going back to evil and suffering, it's a bit of a silly subject now knowing how you'd respond.

I've got really common questions here that I think maybe people are wondering. I don't think any of the questions are silly. I think they're all illustrative, so no, go for it.

I'm just saying, you're probably thinking this, but I think I know what you're going to say. Well, if God knows evil is coming, why does he stop it?

How do you reconcile God's goodness with things like abuse and betrayal and genocide? How can a wise and loving

God allow suffering? These are valid questions for the human experience. But I think going back to what you've said before is who are we to determine what's good and evil?

Who are we to decide what the tapestry's supposed to look like and the things needed to get us there? Yeah, and that is part.

Remember that conclusion of my whole, the five omnis, and the guy said that Yahweh created the best possible world, and he offers every person the best opportunity to worship him and enjoy him forever.

And that last piece I want us to keep in mind, because I think this will point towards end of the eschatology, right?

The future, the salvation that is to come. God wants us in this life to have the best possible experience, but also to worship him for eternity, right?

And so, yes, somehow, and again, you're right in that instinct, I can't measure how

God is weaving together all of my choices, but I do trust, even when

I can't feel it, or even when it's hard for me to believe, I trust that he's making it happen.

So whether you suffer from a particular illness, or you've had a tragic accident, or whether it's just you see, you know, people going and shooting people, or whatever,

I can't make sense of it. There's a mystery, there's a nonsensicalness to that, that my human mind can't comprehend.

All I can do is affirm what God says is true. 2 Timothy, here's a verse that I think makes this point.

Chapter 1, verses 7 through 10 says this, For God gave us a spirit not of fear, but of power and love, and of self -control.

Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me, his prisoner.

But, and Paul's in prison, right? He's suffered shipwrecks, and he's been beaten, he's all these things.

So don't be ashamed that I'm a prisoner for Jesus, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God who saved us and called us by his holy calling.

Not because of our works, but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

Before we even thought about it, before we made a choice, God gave us this great purpose, and which now has been manifested, made real.

So he had this purpose before, now it's only being made real through the appearing of our savior,

Jesus Christ, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through this gospel.

So literally, we are living out the eternal plan and purpose of God, even in our suffering.

Even when bad stuff happens, the way I model life, the way I model my trust in God, teaches the world something about suffering they can't see from a worldly perspective.

And I don't need to justify it, I don't need to rationalize it, I don't even need to understand it. I just need to trust that I'm a participant in God's great plan.

That's the glory of the gospel today, it's also the glory of the gospel of the future, that someday the book of Revelation says,

God will wipe away every tear. If I trust that God, if God doesn't know the future, then he doesn't know that's true.

If the God of open theism is the God, then he cannot promise me he'll wipe away every tear because he doesn't know.

But if I look at my suffering now, there's a redemptive purpose to that that I don't comprehend, but God promises that he will restore.

And that whatever I experience now will come to, matter of fact, I won't have memory of it, I won't have, it won't even impact the way

I see myself and experience that eternity, because he's gonna do something to restore in me the joy of my salvation, the purpose of that gospel.

That to me is the hope we cling to, even when life seems hopeless. I'm so glad you're here because that was like the proper theological response to that, where it's like my

Sunday school mind is like, yeah, like Jeremiah 29 and 11. It's like, I'm reading that verse all out of context, but in my head that was saying the same thing as what you just said of like, for I know the plans

I have for you declares the Lord plans to give you hope in a future not to harm you. Like what you just said was the more theologically sound version of that, because I know

I'm taking Jeremiah 29 and 11 out of context and the promise that that was, but you're completely right.

Like all of this is working together for his glory and good. And that's the purpose of our life, even the suffering. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Can I read that verse real quick, just to kind of put you in this passage? I just, you know, it's just when we fix our eyes.

And I think this is such an important thing, because again, this relates to the omni sapiens, the knowledge, the wisdom of God, the omnipotence, his power, all the omnis of God.

Revelation chapter seven, verses 15 through seven. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple.

And he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. There's that relational piece that you brought up.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore. The sun shall not strike them nor any scorching heat.

For the lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd. And he will guide them to springs of living water and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Think of the glory of that, the beauty of what that promise is, that all those things, all those relational terms, right?

He's our shepherd, he's guiding, he's sitting with us, he's comforting with us. All of that is predicated on the belief, the biblical truth that God is not just all loving, but he's all knowing, he's all wise, and he's all powerful, and that he can fulfill every promise that he has given us.

That's a God worthy of worship even in the midst of my sorrow. And actually, because of my sorrow,

I need that God, even though my instinct is to want to reject that. There's been a lot of conversation about things we don't understand.

And I think that as a Christian, that's one of the hardest things to grapple with, of giving your life, mind, body, soul to something and still being like,

I don't know, how can you grapple with that cognitive dissonance of like, yeah, I committed everything in my being to it and yet I am confused.

Like no sane person would get married to someone if they weren't like 100 % sure. So in the realm of mystery that is this

God, like, is this mystery a gift or is it a theological dodge?

Like how do we evangelize to people that are logical and we say, hey, there's some things we don't know and that's great.

How do you sell that? Yeah, I would argue that mystery is actually one of the greatest gifts that God has ever given us.

It's the gift that allows us to wonder and to marvel and to grow and to learn.

While we've grown and learned, God does not because he's not confused about the future or unknown about the future.

The distinction is there, yeah. Yeah, here's the definitions that I would maybe offer. Confusion is a state of disorientation or frustration that's brought about by a lack of knowledge or a lack of wisdom which leads to discomfort, mental distress, anxiety because we can't find a solution, right?

That's confusion. That's the state of disorder and chaos.

God doesn't live in a state of confusion. If God is not the all -wise, all -knowing God, he lives in a state of confusion just like you and I do.

But the God who authored mystery in our lives and that mystery exists in us because we are limited, because we are finite and God is infinite, right?

We'll never, even in all eternity, ever fathom the depth of the God we worship which is why eternity is so glorious because we will always be discovering.

But mystery then, it's that state of not knowing something which sparks curiosity, wonder, marvel, right?

Mystery involves, it's an exploration and it's the contemplation in search of answers.

It's the exploration of relationship. Think of relationships like, you know, you have what they always call the honeymoon period, right?

Where everything is just so amazing and wonderful and then all of a sudden you learn things like, oh, this is horrible, right? And the honeymoon period.

But relationships in an ideal sense, I think what they will be in eternity, it's sort of like the eternal state of the honeymoon period.

We're always gonna be in that state of wonder and awe and mystery about the other, about the nature of God, even about one another, exploring one another.

It's the gift that drives us to share the gospel of hope of Christ for now but in the age to come.

It's in the desire to wanna explore that eternally. I'll give you one example of this and then you can ask any follow -up you want.

Romans 11, verse 38 starts this. It says, as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake.

In other words, there's the enemies that are outside that wanna see harm come to you, right? They are enemies for your sake.

God has a redemptive purpose even in that. It says, but as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, can't be changed. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience.

These are about the Jews that rejected Jesus. So they too have been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you, they also may now receive mercy.

See, God has orchestrated these times of obedience and disobedience all so that all people would have the opportunity to come to salvation in Jesus Christ.

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that is everybody at one point is in the same boat, that he may have mercy on all.

Oh, the depth and riches and wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways.

So if we wanna believe that God has made a way for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ can receive that salvation, then we cannot deny that God is rich in wisdom and knowledge because that's the only way

God can bring salvation and promise it to all people. And that's why at the beginning I said,

I think the God of open theism ultimately rejects that the beauty of that gospel and the hope of salvation and the richness that it should bring in our life.

My gosh, I needed this conversation today. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this.

This is a very difficult conversation to have for an early Christian like me relatively. So thank you for making it understandable and providing so much substantial support for your claims.

And again, for anybody that may be exiting this and being like, yeah, Boyd's an idiot, he's not. I think that this was a very well -balanced discussion that Boyd is a genius in his own right and so are you.

And I think that having such credentialed conversations like this are healthy for any Christian to consider with both hands openly, but really just all pointing back to the glory of the

Lord. And by no means is this intended to be divisive, but I think you've made a very strong point today in simple foreknowledge and your basis against open theism.

And I think that's important for us to openly consider, you know, no pun intended, but I appreciate the time.

You've mentioned so many resources. So for people that want to continue to stay connected with you, Dr. Miller, how can they?

Well, the easiest way to find me is my website, morethancake .org, O -R -G, not com, if you go to the .com,

then it's probably cake, actual cake recipes, but morethancake .org. Actually, I'll point you to right to my sub stack and folks,

I'd encourage you to sign up and you can do the free or you can pay if you think something's worth accessing. And that will let me send out newsletters to connect when social media suppresses certain articles that go out.

But there you'll find all my social media connections. So morethancake .org is the best way to reach me. Perfect.

And are you teaching any classes at Grand Canyon that people can look forward to? Yeah, so I teach

Christian worldview is my primary course that I teach. And actually a lot of my content, I have boiled down to five minute videos.

I mentioned a couple of these, I've got over 20 of them. All of those are freely accessible. So if you get on my site, morethancake .org

and you go to the worldview tab, you'll see a worldview 101. You can watch through all like 20, some of those three to anywhere from two and a half to five minute videos, all on a lot of these concepts.

And welcome for subscribers to take questions and dialogue with anybody who wants to go to that route and is interested.

Perfect. Well, everything will be linked below for anybody that wants to click on that right now, go ahead. But thank you,

Dr. Miller for your time. You are always appreciated and I'll find another way to bring you back on the show. God bless you, Cassian.