Open Phones Dividing Line!

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line in 65 degrees in Phoenix and therefore it's time to get the coogies out and I went with the muted colors to start off with because I don't want to Cause rich any undue stress

You know, he has coogee derangement syndrome and So I don't want to you know, make it really rough for him, you know,

I could have come in with just one of my Super wild colorful ones and it might have might have caused him some issues

So we're going with the the mild stuff today, and I just looking at the weather Thanksgiving Day 72 degrees in Phoenix 72 and sunny so, you know palm trees swaying the breeze is blowing you are leaving at the wrong time of year

Well, we'll see what the weather is like back east that's definitely gonna be cooler than here

I would assume but anyway I leave this time of year every year. Well, this is last year and I Before I mention that, um

I'm gonna be transparently honest here rich doesn't know about this either but This time of year.

Sometimes I eat things I shouldn't eat Christmas stuff things like that that contain stuff that isn't good for me

Uh, so my heart's doing the flippy floppy thingy and Right now

I'm fine, but it might go flippy floppy on me and we may need a commercial break or Just kill the cameras real quick.

So the so that nobody makes a lot of money off of memeing The YouTube of my eyes crossing and stuff like that It has been an interesting day so far so just being open and honest about that it it happens

When you had cardiac ablation years ago, and it didn't work. Well, it did for six months.

It worked great for six months But I'm a super healer. I heal stuff Did that with LASIK and I did that with this too and only made it worse.

It's great Yeah, these these old bodies they don't don't

Last as well as you'd like them to So anyways, we are taking your zoom calls.

We have three zoom callers at the moment and We've got it, okay, we've got a title now, um,

I have no Stinking idea how you do this. Okay, I I can't

I can't direct you to a URL Obviously at least three people in the world do know how to do it because they're already in the waiting room ready to join us

I assume if you go to the Alpha Omega X page maybe there might be something there that tells you how to do this maybe

Well, yes, sir, it's on our X page It's also on our website and it's on our

Facebook page and it's in the app all those instructions are there sent out this morning sent out yesterday and you know, because you know called a

Audible on that one So it's it's all out there. Um, you know, yeah, we called we called an audible

I should say Uh We uh,

I'll give a quick report because I put it on X we're not out of the woods yet For those of you didn't see that We have five little kittens that were born in our backyard that I've put a lot of effort into getting their lives started correctly and safely and Loved little boogers.

And in fact, my wife and I have fallen in love with two of the five We're gonna be keeping those two. We found a home for the other three

But yesterday, well, this is started a few days ago, but yesterday it became very clear that three of the five are very sick and So I was making multiple trips to the vet yesterday bleeding money

So Wow They were nice. They they gave me drugs for all three with only seeing one because out of the same thing anyways, and so my wife and I are now doing the how do you wrap up a five and a half month old kitten and Force that thing into their mouth and squirt stuff down their throats and make them do that kind of stuff and get that medicine into them and I did get a kitty wrapper thingy from Amazon that came

This around noon today, I guess that sort of sticks to them a little bit better and holds them a little bit tighter

They've been great that they You know the two we want to keep well, we'd like to keep all of them, but we can't the two sweetest ones are the sickest ones and They're not out of the woods.

They're not out of the woods. So we'll see we'll see so We just keep giving them the meds and and Hope and pray for the best.

So that's what I was doing yesterday and it turned out they ended up calling me and asking about Blood tests and stuff like that right when we would have been doing the show.

So it worked out So for those who were wondering no, we're not out of the woods yet Remind me later

To give you an update They were walking around some today. They were sort of out in the Sun and Looking a little bit better, but I Don't know.

They're teeny tiny little things they really are and so the the three really sick ones are tank tiger and Sadie and so Kelly and I want to keep tank and Sadie.

We'd love to keep tank Sadie and tiger too, but we've already got Way too many to begin with and one of our our oldest one

Who is a tortoise shell a tortie? She just hates all of them Yeah, those poor little kittens walk by she's goes fuck

Stay with me That's just that's just how she is. Okay. All right So I I'm just gonna sort of go with the order.

They've got here. I'm assuming that's the order they came in, right? What do you mean? What do you mean putting your hands up?

You're supposed to know this stuff Hey, there's a lot to keep up with I don't know if what order they zoom puts them in it just they're there and Probably maybe who knows well, this is weird because we have two

That are similar topics do you see that so I'm pretty sure Adrian was first one in I think okay

So let's let's start with Adrian, especially because I think I can see Adrian as far as a image goes not actually see via Zoom, but I think that's probably is that your actual picture

Adrian? Yes. Oh, well That's I've maybe the first time

I've ever talked with somebody on the dividing line that I actually know what they look like That's sort of weird.

So anyways, yes Adrian reformed Baptist in a Lutheran Church. What's up? Yes, I'm calling from Trondheim, Norway.

Ah First I just want to say I'm really appreciative of your ministry I've been

Christian for 10 years now, and I think I started listening to During my first year as a

Christian So it's really helpful Well good. That's that's great to hear

I got a chance to go to Norway only once while I was still traveling and it was a beautiful place beautiful people and The place we stayed at there were sheep on the roof.

So I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but that's Yeah, that's the thing where did you go because I think

I heard you in the G I know I said as you were It's been too many. There's been too many years.

I don't I don't recall the the name of the place. Sorry All right Yeah, so As a reformed

Baptist There aren't really any reformed Baptist churches In Norway there there are a few down south but in the city.

I'm in there is basically none So we have me and my family have ended up attending a

Lutheran free church So far it's been going quite well, they have been very respective of my stance on baptism

I have an open dialogue with the pastor and and we've gotten quite close But the situation is it's not that we're just attending he has asked me to preach three times

And I've done that so far and he's asking me to preach more and during the next semester

And I'm also leading a Bible group for the young men in the church He also started flirting with the idea that I would come along alongside him in ministry as an elder in the future, maybe

But there's this issue of baptism of course, they hold to the

Augsburg Confession and they also have a Presbyterian that's above their church.

So they have to kind of stick within the lines of what they're allowed to to do and So it's a strange situation where I've been a reformed

Baptist not officially a member of the church, but I've been allowed to preach there and We take part in the church.

It's become our family. Yeah But it seems to me from what sure what it seems to me

Adrian what you're describing to me. Is that you're in a In a place where Well, let's put this way when

I when I was there The believers that I was speaking at the conference

I was speaking at It was pretty clear that the state church

Was very non -evangelical really Yeah, apostate and unbelieving basically.

So it sounds like you're dealing with a Free Lutheran Church, probably not overly big

No quite small this one separated from the larger free church in this is this is the conservatives of the free church

Yeah, so it sounds like you're talking about a small group of believers in a small town and They recognize that you're serious and you're committed and hence

You know sometimes that makes strange bedfellows, but that's the situation the

Lord puts you in and in that situation you You always try to be transparent.

You always try to be honest have open lines of communication You know it it could blow up rather easily if someone decided to Try to take advantage of the situation and push their own perspectives and things like that Yeah, but as long as you all are on the same page

You're focused on issues the gospel, you know, you're living in a very very very secular society

You know, I've seen I've seen folks survive that Up until the point where someone, you know puts the foot down says no you've got to we've all got to you know

Do this the same thing say the same things obviously if you had lots of options there and lots of believing

Christians then You know, you can push for a little more consistency, but it sounds to me

Like you all are sort of a desert oasis Yes in the middle of nothing.

And so from my perspective, it would be a whole lot better to stay focused on the main things and Look that I've encountered a lot of different views on baptism from Lutherans and I've encountered

Lutheran monergists Who you know Don't go some of the more formal routes.

And so, you know, I can certainly see that working You know, you need to have fellowship there needs to there needs to be

Service to other Christians being served by other Christians, you know, it's it's an important thing to do and so, you know

Up until the point where you feel like you're being pressured to Compromise something that's really important, you know become a

Fritz Erba if you know who Fritz Erba was Yeah, yeah, you know it doesn't sound like they're gonna be checking you into the know into the prison house there so hey

I would say Be thankful for the fellowship be thankful for the ministry of the word

Contribute as you can I think there probably needs to be a regular commitment on everybody's part to Provide that space that would allow you to continue to do that It's it's really easy to like become complacent of oh we've been doing this a long time

We don't have to worry about that much anymore. And then all of a sudden it pops up and smacks everybody in the face It needs to be something that's kept in the mind in everybody's minds that you know, we're we're cooperating together despite our differences but yeah,

I you know be a lighthouse in in that place and in the darkness of the secular

Scandinavian countries, you know be a light for the gospel. It's It's it, you know,

Scandinavia is a great example of what happens when You end up with a state church that no longer seeks the actual conversion of the people that are in it and The result is as you know, it's it's very hard to to do evangelism in a place it has the state church because everybody feels like they're already right with God to begin with and Even though they're walking far far away from his his ways

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah one of the elders they told me they would rather have fellowship with a Reformed Baptist that's conservative and believing than a liberal

Lutheran. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah We have a lot more in common. I I mean

I've said over and over again that The OPC and Reformed Baptists are the closest two denominations that I know of and A You know,

I'm not sure if they're monergists or not that that's sort of a important issue but You know, you certainly can be if you read if you read bondage as well

You're gonna come out on the right side of things there But yeah, I can certainly see that that happening and and I can certainly see you all investing yourselves in that fellowship and Proclaiming Christ in that place together despite what differences you might have

Yeah about the topic of monergism one thing

I haven't been able to wrap my head around this is the Lutheran view of predestination the Single predestination.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah to me. It sounds like the The natural the logical consequence is is double

Even if you say it's only single. Yeah. I yeah and Real quickly because we got other callers we need to get to my my my viewpoint there and of course

Lutherans disagree with me and they have the perfect right to do that, but You know, I I see two

Luthers historically. I see the the up to 1525 Luther and the post 1525

Luther and It it seems to me that if the pre 1525

Luther Had continued on the course he was on That you'd have a much clearer

Lutheran definition of predestination and election and He didn't stay on that and then

I think Melanchthon took the movement another direction after his death so You know, you can make some pretty strong arguments from the pre 1525 material, but there's only so much

I mean, you've got the bondage of the will some sermons stuff like that, but it's it's limited and You know, you can make the argument well consistent if he had been consistent then this is what would have it would have led to but you know, that's that's how it goes and So yeah

You know, I as long as they know what your confession of faith says and you know where you're coming from I Would hope the

Lord would would bless your joint ministry there in Norway and we need we need faithful men in in difficult times and So I pray that you and your family be blessed

Thank you, dr. White, okay. Thank you Adrian. Nice to nice to see a nice talk with you All right

Because we just talked to Adrian on a reformed Baptist in a Lutheran Church This may not have been the order but we'll try to get to everybody.

I'll try to talk a little faster, I guess Let's talk to Joel the

Reformed Baptist in the PCA So so I figured these are related related.

Let's get the these questions dealt with Right off the top here. So Joel how you doing?

I'm doing good. Dr. White. How about yourself? Well, like I said, I could pass out any moment.

So But The heart is beating fairly regularly at the moment.

So we'll hope that that will last through the rest of the program Well, praise the Lord Well, I'm dr.

White I'm from From Houston, Texas. I'm a member of a a conservative church within the

PCA I'm a reformed Baptist and At our current church

My wife and I love the preaching and the teaching the community the fellowship, but it's a place that we feel

Shepherded and like the leadership of our church is faithful to the principle of sola scriptura

However As I'm as I'm pushing pushing forward in marriage

I understand that I'm I'm not necessarily at the place to be somebody who's necessarily elder qualified I'm about three years into marriage and still

Working on caring for my wife in a in a Christlike manner however, I understand that the

Lord has gifted me with the ability to understand his word

I have a desire and And a And a particular gifting when it comes to theology and biblical exposition

I Know right now the church that I'm at currently is where we need to be however,

I also understand that at Certain points in people's lives when they be qualified men

They are commanded to seek either a diaconal position or an elder position

Being in the PCA, I'm never going to be able to be ordained because I don't fully affirm the

Westminster Confession of Faith However, I would feel comfortable affirming a document like the

London Baptist Confession of Faith. All right, how should I? Endeavor forward being a faithful member of my church

But also if God were to call me into ministry or some other office in the church How what's the best way to go about that?

Well Now this is interesting in comparison to Adrian's situation

I would imagine in Houston that you have wider options of course

Having to drive through Houston fairly regularly myself I'm not sure you want to drive very far in Houston traffic

I think I think the 10 going through Houston is probably backed up and locked up at 3 o 'clock in the morning

It's just and your roads around there my would should we pray for healing for the roads in Houston or just what

I'm really I'm really not sure. It's just it's bad. Anyway So, you know

Adrian's in a situation where no, this is pretty much probably going to be the only Faithful church that he can find and I would assume in Houston That there would be a number of faithful churches that you could you could serve in you're currently in a

PCA church I happen to know as you probably know

When I'm in Houston the primary church that I'm ministering at doing debates is

First Lutheran downtown and The pastor there is is a great guy and We get along on you know, there's just a lot of topics that he would be willing to have me represent his side

In debate there. So there's there's a another example You know,

I and then the church that I'm one of the pastors at Apologia Church, we we try to be as Biblically faithfully ecumenical as we can be so, you know you're being that with a with a

PCA Church But you know they have You know,

I would imagine if they're conservative that means they're believing Presbyterians. That means they have specific standards and So you're limited as to how you can exercise your gifts in a context like that So and and that's the way it should be.

I mean we have Presbyterians in the membership of our church But You know the the position of the church is very clear eldership the deaconate things like that that's pretty clear as to where we're standing and and the confession that we make and and things like that, so yeah, you know as you

You know, you're you're young in your marriage You're only 40 years behind me in marriage and You you have the right

Emphasis on you know growing in that relationship with your wife When children come along that's obviously going to raise issues when you're a

Baptist even a Reformed Baptist in a PCA context and that There can be some serious pressures there

That again if you are out in the middle of nowhere, and you didn't have any other choices Then you you have to deal with those pressures and maybe make accommodations

That are that don't Require you to compromise your your faith, but that you can get along with but in Houston There are

I'm sure a number of faithful Evangelical Reformed Baptist churches that you could you could be a part of so it's a little bit of a different context

I would assume than Adrian has where you're forced to Make those sort of ecumenical connections whereas at the moment you're you're enjoying that fellowship and That's great.

But hey if you want to if you want to move into further levels of of Ministry and teaching you have to be in a place where you can do that and Given you're in Houston.

There would be places where you could do that still there.

I Think we like yeah, well, it's muted according to the screen but Well, hopefully that was useful

You know, sometimes things happen when you're on zoom Just have to have to hope that was useful.

Okay I'm pretty sure that Cesar was uh was next up.

So let's talk to Cesar Hi, Dr.

White. Hello. Yes, I can Oh good. Yes my second time being on the delight

Oh, um, hopefully you can just hear me and not the music in the back rich if there's any way to turn things up in here

I'm really struggling Uh, is that okay now, so is it nothing nothing that it's not a problem for you.

It's just uh how we have We we do not have the highest tech Mechanism for me to be able to hear callers.

Let's just put it that way Okay, and if I just because I'm on my phone, so I'll just no, that's fine.

Go ahead Okay. So my question has to do with um in Reading the

Church Fathers usually when I'm talking with Eastern Orthodox individual or even

Roman Catholics um we We uh, we tend to talk about the church fathers a lot and I wonder

That since sometimes the church fathers given their time and place They sometimes would

I think use some Greek philosophy in order to defend their faith. So I was wondering uh

How much should we? I guess uh value some of the decisions given

Um, they're given their use of Greek philosophy at times

Does it is there a line or specific? Uh, I guess um

Uh, how do I say this a specific Oh, yeah, let's just say a specific line in which you would say, uh, probably not don't go that way

Well Well Yeah, it you know, it's pretty straightforward for me, um

The farther you get down in church history the deeper you get into the encrustation of tradition and You see it developing

This is one that this is one of the key things that that people have to keep in mind. Um and it's one of the key reasons why a lot of How shall we put it?

Um There are a lot of folks who don't follow me down this path, uh

That leads them eventually to significantly different theological conclusions, um

I see the reality of the early church being

It's it starts You know when when people talk about well, you know

It was it was apostolic and so you had the apostles and so it was really pure back then reality is that Yeah, there are some startlingly good

Examples of sound apostolic that is representational of what you have

From the apostles themselves in scripture Um and the worldview they represented which was not the greek philosophical worldview now

Their message had to go out into that world and had to answer questions and just as The gospel had to go east

And encounter eastern worldviews It went west and had to encounter greek philosophy roman philosophy

Which was normally just greek philosophy with different names. Um and so That was a necessary thing to have to have happen but What happens is when when you look at someone like a clement of alexandria origin?

It is so painfully obvious That the worldview

That informs the new testament writings and the old testament writings, well the biblical writings as a whole

Becomes eclipsed often with greek philosophy philosophical categories

And words that have one meaning within The new testament end up with another meaning.

Um in light of greek philosophy and what happens is

You start getting erroneous traditions that give rise to more erroneous traditions and then more and then hook up with some more over here and you you start seeing the the process that eventually leads you to The things we see in the medieval period or the things we see today.

I mean When you think about it that recent roman catholic document just two weeks ago um

Is just truly astonishing That today a group that calls itself the christian church

Is literally Having internal arguments about whether you should identify and use this terminology of mary co -redemptrix and co -mediatrix with christ

There is nothing more painfully obvious Then that's not something that the apostolic church ever even dreamed of teaching

Or taught to anybody but it's the result of centuries of accretion over time and so There is a fine line between wanting to bring the gospel to the greeks um

And having the greeks take over the gospel And you know You you've heard the phrase before i'm sure

What does jerusalem have to do with athens And so in that second century this was a major Issue as well.

It should have been What does jerusalem have to do with athens? And when you use athenian terminology

Um Are you running the risk of losing the message that was delivered in jerusalem?

And eventually on many things you do um One of the things

I have to do over the next 11 months um before a fairly major, um

Engagement in 2026 lord willing i'm having to read a

Particular corpus of works That I believe had extremely negative impact on the christian church

By a self -professed christian, but very negative impact and it is it's just greek philosophy, it's the the amount of apostolic teaching biblical teaching biblical categories in this corpus of writings is absolutely minimal

And the exegesis is horrific so, um I don't like having to do that.

I have to in light of the particular topic that I am Addressing and I think it's important But that's a good example how 500 years after the birth of christ you have men calling themselves christians who are 98 percent greek philosophers using two percent biblical language

Now that doesn't mean everybody did that um There are examples in the sixth century um

Of bishops who still Have a deep biblical rooting for their theology even when they're believing things that I would say had already departed a fair bit from the biblical narrative and so You learn to when you read later writers

You learn to appreciate when you encounter the biblical truth shining through But you also got to get used to the fact that very often

You're reading for pages and What you're reading isn't really um biblically faithful it's

It's it may be pious It may have originated in a good desire

But the apostles wouldn't even recognize it And then all of a sudden you turn the page wow, here's a whole page of great stuff and then

Okay, it sort of gets mixed for a while then back to a lot of the greek philosophy. So um, it is

You know, I that's why The reading their church fathers apologetically that is

Applying them and talking to roman catholics or eastern orthodox It is never my intention

To try to communicate the idea that these writings carry an authority uh equal to uh anywhere near that of the apostolic writings themselves

I I am a biblicist. I'm reformed biblicist And so I can recognize good things in patristic sources and then also recognize that there were some really um horrific things there in And if roman catholics were honest with history, which their dogma really doesn't allow them to be um

They would have to admit that they're in the same boat When they read the early church fathers if they're being honest, they'll encounter stuff that is very clearly negative toward the claims, uh that rome has made

For example regarding petrine primacy and stuff like that Rome says that's the early faith of the church

It's always been the faith of church. It's just simply not true so they have to You know like like jerry madetix did in one of my earliest debates

You know, basically I quoted tertullian. Well, he wasn't a church father. Yes, of course he was okay became a montanus

That's why he's not saint tertullian Uh from the roman catholic perspective, but he's a church father um

And they they start picking and choosing, you know, they they read certain with augustine, you know

They read all his stuff about church order and go. Ah, there it is But then they read his stuff on grace and predestination like ah, that hasn't been defined by the church blah blah blah blah

So they do the same thing. We just do it openly and our standard is the unchanging standard description

That's the difference Hello Oh rich rich had you off.

Sorry. I couldn't hear you. It's all rich's fault. Everything's rich as well Try that again Um Uh, would it then be fair to say for example that when the church fathers use um

When they refer to jesus as the logos and they go through this whole chain of logos being rezone that um, it's a good insight and and highest but uh, what would it would the proper way to view that is

Is that john wouldn't have had that in view and it'd be more of a hebrew understanding of the word being well

Well, yeah, I I do think that uh, second second third century logos christology uh imported categories

Into the meaning of that term That would not come from memrah devar uh the hebrew background

And I do think that when you read John 1 And you look at the logos christology that is presented there

That the proper background for that that john himself utilizes um would give you exactly that that it's the word of god spoken creation so on so forth and when people like um

Justin martyr in the second century and then people following them him, uh insert into That term logos primarily greek philosophical categories and of course

You'd realize a lot of modern New testament scholars would say well john's very very late some would even say in the second century um, and he's specifically trying to follow philo or things like that and trying to use make that kind of presentation so the lower

Bibliology you have And I would say believing the new testament self -contradictory

It's not written by the people that claim to be written by so on so forth is a lower lower bibliology the lower your bibliology the

More likely you're going to be to buy into that kind of stuff and allow for that kind of stuff

If you have a high bibliology, then you're going to go no, um These things need to be defined first and foremost in a biblical context.

So yeah, I I would say that the Appropriate starting place for logos comes from Its use in the old testament and the hebrew terms that it translated

Okay, thank you, dr. White, thank you for your ministry And lastly, what's your favorite book on the ecumenical councils to study?

Um Well, you know it i'll i'll be honest with you, um

I've read a number the majority of Books that are going to be focused on the ecumenical councils

As ecumenical councils are going to be written by roman catholics or eastern orthodox. Mainly roman catholics And there are some excellent roman catholic historians who are honest

In their evaluation. I mean you always have to keep in mind, you know, they have a faith commitment Maybe somewhere you sort of have to see how much it influences things um

I don't have them sitting in front of me right now to give you the names. Um, one of them's orange remember that much um but um

You know, I don't I would never tell anybody to shy away from those sources They can be very very well done.

You just have to you know be discerning. Um, i've got The big old

I went my keys I got the big old beast here by richard price the axe the second council of nicaea with all my little marks in it

Since we finally found it again uh, I have that in pdf format too, and that's what i'm using to Do some preparation for next year as well.

So You know you get the you get the best information you can You keep an eye on where it's coming from and you go from there

Okay All right. Thank you very much. I believe our Next one on the screen that I can see anyways is uh, brenda

Hello brenda, how are you still muted? Hi, dr.

White. Hello How are you? I mean, I know how you are. You've already talked about it

Um, I want to say real quick that uh, i'm I will be praying for you with your heart issues

I know you've had them for a while and so i'll be praying for you. I appreciate that Okay, my uh

Issue that I wanted to bring up kind of relates a little bit to what you were talking to cesar about about parsing parsing who those people are that you need to completely avoid because even though They say some good things.

Um that The bad things that they're saying theologically

Are really awful So you need to avoid them completely And those others that well

There may be some things you disagree with but You can go ahead and read them and there would be good things to come out.

Let me give you examples Uh, what brought this up for me was I happened upon your mash -up with zach and luke about the cory mauler uh debate and one of the things that you all were talking about was that He draws people in because he says some good things but that other stuff about Black people not being able to be sanctified is just evil, you know, that's just evil.

So he should be completely avoided but another instance for me was

I had heard some things about tim keller years ago and about uh that he kind of social justice -y and Uh, his ecclesiology was a little wonky

And so when I heard those things, I thought well i'm not gonna talk with him. Well My church

I go to a reformed baptist church And the two teaching pastors are excellent

Excellent expositors well one of them Uses has read tim keller obviously and uses quotes from him that are spot -on so i'm thinking well, and so you've talked about that like you were talking about the church fathers that You need to kind of weed out you read them

But you realize that there are times when they're spot on and then there are times when they haven't hit the mark so Just talk a little bit about how to discern

Between who you mark and avoid And who you do that other? Yeah brenda, this is um

It's sort of tough subject simply because um well

I'll use i'll use the example that popped up a couple days ago. Um in the controversy online um

With skillet, okay, so I talked about this on on the last program. I spent 15 minutes up talking about it and it's like Uh, look,

I know these people I know their hearts, uh, they've proven themselves to me over the years.

Um I mean, it's not like i'm john's longtime friend, but we've been friends almost five and a half years and Uh had a lot of communication during that time anyway

The attacks that that came against them for doing a I thought tremendous, um music video that had

Great, not only great production value, but great message in it primarily came from people who have an incredibly narrow um range of what they would

Allow to be considered christians. So in other words as I did as a young person

I was raised independent fundamentalist baptist and I was raised to believe that We didn't even know what orthodox was that wasn't part of it

But I was raised to believe that catholics lutherans presbyterians Uh, and pretty much anybody that didn't have our eschatology right down to the final letter just weren't christians

The reason they didn't believe what we believe is because they just weren't christians And that was just sort of a a given in that person in that group

Uh, I had a guy two days ago in x He had agreed with something

I had said Uh agreed with what I said was true but then he he made some

Some statement that made me go. I'm not sure what you mean by this and when he responded it was clear that what he was saying was if you

If you're if you don't have the dispensational understanding of israel Uh, you're a heretic and you're going to hell and you need to get saved

And so when I said well, actually I I hold to a much more historical view of this subject

He immediately condemned me to hell, you know, i'm i'm I need to get saved so that they've added these things to the gospel and so i'm,

I That's my background. And so some people might say well you respond you react to Too much to that you go too far the other way.

Okay, fine um I'm, not trying to tell people that they have to do exactly what what

I do when it comes to this I also in my background went to fuller theological seminary

Which was way way way to my left And I had to learn to appreciate what

I could what I could glean and learn from people way to my left because Almost all my professors except for the professors that were drawn from grand canyon college

Were way to my left And I learned that people way over there can have great insights and Know history well and Uh all sorts of stuff like that But I just had to be very discerning

In how they came to their conclusions And identifying the role of tradition and things like that so But there is there's also a difference in looking at um modern writers versus ancient writers ancient writers

You don't have all their context there may be things in their lives that you don't know anything about uh

Things are influencing them that their writings don't communicate to us And so I just think there's sort of a

Much more of a need to be more uh Gracious, I guess

In giving credit where credit is due Because we just we just don't know Now when tim keller was alive

I criticized him uh for some of the things that he said I I mentioned very clearly once I was up in colorado probably about 2013 2014 somewhere around there

And I was driving In colorado and I listened to a webcast he was on on the topic of evil

And It was like half an hour long and after half an hour i'm like This is not a

Westminster man. This is not a reformed man That that the view of evil he just presented was not reformed at all and I was a little shocked because you know, he's presbyterian and I sort of assumed certain things that I shouldn't have assumed and so That's when

I started hearing things That made me go. Huh and more and toward toward the end of his life

It got more and more. Huh? Um, and you could identify Um some of the quite simply woke

Uh worldview that he had embraced in light of where he was ministering in light of where his church was light of people

He was around stuff like that Now do I think tim keller wasn't a christian? No um but We're living in a time where you you have a lot more of the context, you know

What church he was in and you've got hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of his commentary and sermons and Which we don't have for anybody in church history

Uh at all, we don't we don't have that kind of stuff You know augustine we've got enough to get a pretty good beat on but for the vast majority of people

You just don't have that that much there so, um You know There there are people

I I got asked a question. Was it yesterday morning? Yesterday morning

I got asked a question I was doing a webcast uh, well actually a fellowship group for someone else and I was um

Oh drat, uh, it wasn't keller. Oh, it was a gavin ortlund Uh, one of the guys asked me about gavin ortlund and I'm, like well look, um

Obviously, um gavin and I don't see eye to eye on everything He's more ecumenical than I am.

He answers some questions in regards to roman catholicism differently than I do um

But I said At the same time i've learned a tremendous amount from him he does

Tremendous work in certain areas. I might disagree with him in other areas but uh,

I recognize solid work when I see it and i'm not going to close my eyes and ears to it just because We differ we we don't agree about climate change or something like that.

Um, There are a lot of people that just will not give that kind of That kind of freedom if there are a lot of people online that if They disagree with you on climate change and they disagree with you on everything um, and I experience that all the time and I said to the the person

I was talking to I said I think the reason that gavin ortlund um tries

In essence to minimize the differences On minor issues is because he wants the focus to remain on what the real big issues are and There is some wisdom in that because let's just be honest.

You look at social media and There's almost no emphasis on the big issues

There is everything is about adiaphora the things that don't matter. It's it's just this constant

Firestorm of controversy over stuff that really at the end of the day Doesn't amount to a hill of beans and so I said, you know in defense of gavin ortlund,

I think he's he might be bothering you because It's it's part of his focus.

This is the stuff we got to be focused on that other stuff doesn't matter It's not that doesn't matter And I might put more uh weight onto other topics but um

It's just just the way it is so You know, I can really appreciate gavin ortlund. I can pray that you know, god would continue to use him.

Um He's probably not going to be preaching my church anytime soon. Um And and I wouldn't be banging down the door to try to preach at his either and you know what that's perfectly fine

I don't I I have I have been cleansed of my my uh, independent fundamentalist baptist disease

Of thinking there's something wrong about that. Um and so, uh

You know, it all it all comes back to biblical fidelity and None of us have got it.

Perfect and Uh people who think that they do um generally tend to be extremely judgmental and Narrow -minded and uh aren't gonna be listening to me.

Anyways, so So yeah discernment discernment's an important thing and you know what i'm not going to tell everybody that you have to discern things in the exact same way

I do I'll try to make my argument and it would be great if we lived in a day where I could make my argument and somebody listens and goes that's interesting.

I don't really come to your same conclusion But and here's why and I can go well, I appreciate that too.

I I don't necessarily agree. But yeah, we can get along Um that kind of maturity unfortunately is extremely rare I also think it's a challenge for christians to really know

The faith. I mean, I think part of the reason why I tended to avoid everything

That maybe that person didn't match up with me on everything and i'm not talking about the essentials uh that my ability to discern

You know, I avoided it because I was afraid I was going to be influenced Well as i've grown and since i've become reformed with your help for the last five years i've gotten deeper into into uh scripture

And i'm more grounded in my faith And so i'm trying to be a little more open in that regard not not like that I'm, not going to disagree with people but not just write everybody off Right, yeah,

I hear you I hear you Well, I hope that's helpful to you brenda it is thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks a lot I can't believe we only have six minutes left. Um uh, let's uh, let's talk to samuel real quick and um

Well, we'll see how fast we can go here and to get to a few others. Sorry Other guys, um,

I I tend to yammer. I think I talked way longer on these phone calls Uh, because hey people have taken the effort to try to dial in i'm not gonna just you know, go real fast

Samuel what's up? Hey, can you hear me? I can Hey, uh, uh kind of my questions.

I'll let me tell me a quick background. Um, yeah, I grew up I would say more conservative baptist not quite independent fundamentalist, but more on on that side

Um, you know a lot of people kind of would say like a four -point calvinist and things on that issue.

Um, so I'm, you know reading your books Listening to your arguments and uh, you know coming to the position of that and you know, i'm calling myself reform

But i'm still certainly in a don't know a lot Um, but then you know, I have conversations with my sister, um, and specifically on you know, limited atonement

And one of her arguments against it um is basically um

If Basically if we believe in limited atonement that christ didn't die for every single individual

When you preach the gospel and say repent and believe it's not genuine Because if that person is not an elect and they really couldn't

Respond to it in faith. So it's not really a choice So kind of for her it gets back to the definition of choice

So she says they really can't choose And then, you know, I'd say well they choose based on their you know, their nature they're sinful they're fallen they choose and they do

What they want but she's like saying but yeah, that's not a real choice And so basically the offer of the gospel to everyone's not genuine.

So that's kind of one of the reasons she doesn't Uh believe in limited atonement, but can you kind of talk about that?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, i'll try to be brief. Um, people import all sorts of stuff into this conversation and basically say well

You have to meet my parameters as to what a choice is.

Um, if If there has been no atonement made for an individual you can't preach the gospel to them as if We somehow preach the gospel on the basis of having knowledge of who the elect are

That's not how the apostles did it Um, and yet the apostles never preached the idea

Um that christ has done all this for you now you do this for him so There basically isn't any any way for folks like that to allow for the new testament to define what atonement is and what the effect of intercession is first and foremost and then leave the rest of it to Application so so the question is did the apostles

Teach um that There is a perfect harmony between the intention of the father son and spirit in the election and the provision of perfect atoning salvation for a particular elect people

And that they chose to do this from eternity past and that this is the drama of redemption And that when jesus taught uh that Those people had been committed to him for salvation and that he would lose none of them

Uh that what he was teaching was true and consistent and believable That's the issue

That should be What we're focused upon if we're going to be answering the question of what the atonement is and what god has done

In the cross to save his elect people Instead what you get for stuff like this is well,

I want to theoretically speculate about a situation where Uh, the gospel is preached to someone who's not elect

Well, you don't know who's not elect and I don't know who's not elect and I don't know who is elect or or whatever

Else it might be That's not a part of the new testament parameter. You're you're bringing that in from outside And so I just have to go so why are you so focused upon these hypotheticals

That the new testament never raises the apostles never dealt with Why why is that so important to you?

What's where is this coming from is the question that I have to ask? And it's coming from tradition.

It's coming from synergistic tradition. It's coming from Uh, well if i'm really going to believe that god is truly just and righteous then

I'm gonna have to believe this that or the other thing. Um, yeah, I that's

That is not how you determine what the new testament teaches on who christ died for uh, why and what the result of that is

And you know there this comes a point where Someone has to go.

You know what? I'm just gonna believe what the bible says about this and um, I'm gonna i'm gonna go from there and Even if there are questions that I can't figure out or if i'm not if i'm not satisfied

Uh, i'm just gonna stick with the scriptural conclusion and trust the lord will either bring bring me satisfaction in my answer eventually uh, or After death but i'm gonna be i'm not gonna go beyond scripture at that point, so That's uh, that's how

I would I would address that Okay, thank but her reply to that.

Basically, I think her objection Is also she thinks it makes god evil

Well, it's okay. I've said many times. Um, the vast majority of people who call themselves four -point calvinists aren't

Almost always exactly the objection to limited atonement

Is not An objection limited atonement. It's an objection to unconditional election It's just been put into different clothes, but it's actually

Fundamentally a rejection of the freedom of god to elect a people Out of the whole mass of fallen sons and daughters of adam

To receive his grace and his mercy not based upon what they do That's if you're gonna say it makes god evil.

That's what you're objecting to You're not objecting to the idea that if if god has elect people then obviously christ is going to die in their place

He's going to be a perfect mediator for them Uh, etc, etc. No, they haven't even gotten to that.

They're really objecting to to election. They're not they're not objecting to Limited atonement at all and also and also original sin.

She said well I agree with you But when we get to it, she still thinks there's something in mankind that They have the ability to choose.

Yeah. Well, yeah, there you go Yeah, there's a lot of foundational issues there that probably mean you need to go all the way back to um sovereignty of god providence uh

Eternal decree all the rest of that stuff So sam i'm gonna i'm gonna get one more caller after this. Um, and we'll wrap it up today

We're gonna go a little bit late Um, so, uh, we're gonna take uh, james the general question.

Sorry, jesse. Sorry wesley. Sorry austin Uh, we will try to do this a little bit more often.

I keep forgetting, uh to do this and uh, we'll Try to get you at that point. Sorry about that.

Um, again, I talk too much But hey, once you get your question in At least you know, i'm not going to just go rushing past you so, um, james.

Yes, sir Your last one let's try to do it quick Hi, dr. White, I just want to echo what the previous callers have said just praying for you and your heart condition um

Calling all the way from northern ireland. Uh I sort of got into Reaching mormon missionaries through the work of yourself and jeff durbin uh back when

I was about 14, I remember watching videos online of jeff interacting with mormons and just Learning a lot and then fast forward

I'm now 21 studying in university at belfast and encountering lots of mormon missionaries and so on.

So just really trying to Uh be a witness in that situation and so on but I know over the years i've found you guys talk a lot about the changing world of mormonism

Yeah, i've really felt that that has continued to change uh, my recent conversation with was with two young guys and uh

It was a very brief meeting unfortunately, so it didn't get a lot in there but I remember just trying to you know, sort of gauge where they're at and so on and just asking questions in terms of Uh, one of the questions

I asked was, you know, do you guys believe that jesus? um was created by the father in some sense, you know using the term literally begotten as i've read that a lot of Literature and so on and then they sort of said no

Um, and I was sort of taking a back at that And then I sort of tried to redirect the question to maybe find something a bit more specific and familiar asking

Uh, do you believe that jesus and lucifer brothers or as are we all in that sort of sense?

Um, and they just looked at me as if I had two heads so it's uh It's very uh, it's going to be very difficult to navigate and I suppose just my question would just be what would be your advice?

in terms of i've There's obviously a lot of literature out there and so on. Um, and there's a lot of literature in terms of the

What the lds church has produced and it can be a bit intimidating starting out just like okay

You know the the challenge of converting the mormon to mormonism before you can get them out. Yeah Yeah, yeah sort of become increasingly challenging and so on and yeah, what would be your advice in that context?

Yeah, you know you're you're exactly right because uh when I was uh Actually younger than you and I started my study of mormonism

It was intimidating the amount of literature and things like that, but I had it easy Um, it was a pretty stable target at that point in time and what they had been teaching and believing had been the same thing for decades and so Uh, I could read somebody like joseph fielding smith who had written 20 30 years earlier

And they wouldn't already be out of date and irrelevant like like riz armaconti is now so Yeah, you do have a different situation now with how rapidly mormonism's changing and look

The missionaries have never been the gold standard of defining lds theology um a lot of those poor young guys, um

I mean I I remember we were up at general conference one of the last general conferences we went to we started flying at the end uh a whole lot easier than that 12 -hour drive to salt lake city and Well 12 hours if you obey the speed limit.

I won't tell you how fast we could get there. But anyway, um Oh, uh, you set the record.

Okay. Well, no, I think I think me and dl set the record coming back When the kid was getting born that's when we set the record.

Anyway Um, I think the cops are still trying to chase us on that one but uh anyway, um uh, you know, uh, there was this lds missionary who was going out on his mission the the

The mtc the missionary training center in provo had just graduated a class and this poor kid ends up seated at the window of the row with me and my son in the middle and aisle seats

And missionaries in the row in front that are straining to listen to this And this kid

Was clueless he had no idea what he was doing. He shot an entire roll of film on an instamatic

During takeoff. Okay. He had never been in a plane before. All right, that that's how That's that's what we're talking about here and So even back then you'd run into these missionaries and the mtc, you know the missionary training center

Even back then only gave you minimal information and now i'm wondering what in the world they're doing in there because the missionaries do tend to be utterly clueless now

So it does you know, at least back then when I when we started witnessing to a mormon we had some base from which to work um we're gonna be heading out to the uh

Christmas lights stuff at the mormon temple starting I think within a couple weeks um and When you talk to people out there

We used to be able to assume a certain level of knowledge even down to the 9 10 11 year olds

Now it doesn't matter if it's an adult whoever you've got to let them talk long enough to get some idea

Of where in the world they're coming from and what in the world they know Because Mormonism is such a broader spectrum of belief now and Right.

So, you know, we started carrying Even when we were still going to Salt Lake City. I start carrying teachings of prophet joseph smith

Maybe a copper mormon doctrine man. Most mormons today have never even seen those books Don't even know who they were don't even know who they're written by So it is much more uh challenging

Uh, you have to be prepared for a much wider range of expression of belief than uh than in the past and um that can

Mean you end up talking for a long long period of time. I know my son -in -law he heads up our lds outreach at apology of church and There are times where he said yeah,

I got home about three o 'clock in the morning. Wow. That was a long conversation Yeah, it took the first two hours just to figure out where the guy was coming from and then

I could finally you know Do something, uh, but it took a long time to get there and um

I'm too old for that He's young he can survive it. But um yeah, so you have to let him talk, you know, and You may find yourself in situations where you literally know more about the orthodox historical

Lds theology than this mormon does Yeah, and So it's it's weird to try to convert them to mormonism to then get get them converted out of mormonism uh, but sometimes it's almost what you have to do sometimes it's like they think mormonism is actually just sort of a

Little bit different version of christianity and they don't even know Uh, just how radically different it is

Until you explain it to them. So yep It's you're you're running into what all of us are running into uh these days and it is the changing world of mormonism and uh,

It's uh, definitely a challenge, but I appreciate your uh Watching the videos and uh that you have a heart to reach these folks

I mean, they they tend to be really great folks and it's heartbreaking to to think about what they believe and how false it is and how

Uh, you know, there are so few christians that actually reach out to them and with and do so with any level of knowledge at all

It's um, it's heartbreaking. So Keep keep doing it. We appreciate it Yeah, thanks.

Thanks. Thank you very much. Um That was helpful, uh wary of time I sort of the to summarize what i've sort of encountered there's still that emphasis upon the book of mormon

The internal testimony those sorts of things so it is that is a connection point to go back to scripture and and to say okay

What how does scripture call us to test authority claims and and profits and so on? um, and I found it to be quite bipolar because it's sort of they're emphasizing this sort of Uh role of the modern -day prophet as an interpreter of scripture

Um sort of similar to our roman catholic or eastern orthodox, uh friends will will bring the charge against protestants

Um, but then once you go to the statements of those prophets and those apostles, they they don't want to touch them

Yep, um, so it's quite it's nearly Bipolar in that sense, you know, it is it is they they want they want the comfort of the authority claim

Without the necessity of that authority claim to actually be consistent or coherent or or historical or anything else.

So yeah It is amazing Uh, because man when I first started talking to mormons They would they would go to the mat in defense of joseph smith as a prophet now

Well, you know prophets make mistakes It's like whoa. Okay, what? I've had the inerrancy of the book of mormon denied.

Um, i'm not sure if that was a common thing back and Back in the day as well. No, no Nope, nope, that's all new stuff and um, i'll be honest with you

I'm, not sure how the church survives it because once you start getting that level of diversity within a strict authoritarian structure like that, um the the the the breaks and the

The cracks in the foundation start coming fast and furious so we'll we'll see what comes of that Hey, well god bless you out there james.

Keep uh, keep doing the lord's work and thanks for listening Thanks very much. All right. God bless. Thank you.

Hey, that was great. Everybody. Uh that worked. Uh, i'm, sorry What? Uh, well, thank you very much.

Yes, I I do realize I did not pass out during the show. Thank you I still have to drive home in that big truck, um anyway, uh

That went really really well great questions, uh, sorry to the people who didn't get to Uh, but uh, you know every

I we do this every time we always have fun with it And then for some reason we stopped doing it and i'm not sure why so we should probably

Like set a timer or something like that Well, at least yeah, you probably probably should do it like twice a month something like that.

Um to uh, Give folks an opportunity to ask questions. Otherwise, we wouldn't be thinking of so yeah

That well one of the one of the problems is you know, I head out next week We can do it in the rig

Yeah, I don't know. We're starting to starting to Starting to test test the limits of uh of uh technology, but yeah, we should try it.

I don't think we ever have done it in the rig But we do we should try it we should try this next trip we should try doing it, um

From the rv and see if we can make it work that that that would sort of be interesting to do so Hey, it's easier for me on preparation.

Anyways, you know, uh, don't have to have stuff queued up all that kind of stuff All right. Thanks for listening to the program.

Uh, We'll be back next week Of course next thursday is thanksgiving

And then i'm on the road. So we'll see what the schedule looks like and um, you know, hopefully my

My kittens are feeling better, uh by then Um, or you're gonna see a very depressed man not wearing a coogee next week.