SLC Debate Review Completed, Brief Pronouns Addressed

Greetings, welcome to the Dividing Line. Here we are still in Phoenix, though the next trip's coming up pretty quick and You need to know the next debate

Will be on the 28th. I Don't believe it will be live stream.

That would be pretty tricky because Both Dr. Ali and I will be online from different locations

That could be problematic. Let's hope it's not Hopefully we have gotten past the old days of Skype and things like that But I believe that'll be during the day

That's on Saturday the 28th Paul or Muhammad who continued the teaching of Jesus?

so We've sort of done that a little we've touched on it

We touched on it in London in 2008 Hard to believe that was almost 20 years ago

And Then pretty much the same topic was debated between David Wood and Shabir Ali on the

ABN in 2015 so that was seven years later and I'm certainly looking forward to it

There's a outreach to Muslims meeting taking place that day here in the

Phoenix area and If I could have been there I would have to do the debate there but this is

This is Easter pageant time. There'll be folks from Apologia out

At the Easter pageant I'm gonna miss that I'll be up in Utah But So, yeah out of towns things like that, but I Really hope the tech works because I'm really looking forward to this particular debate

I've invested a fair amount of time in preparation, so Still have work to do on that and then

I believe it's exactly a week later that we have the debate in Ogden with Jacob Hansen and on The God of Calvinism is morally reprehensible and And my assertion will be that the

It's far better to accuse the God of Mormonism of being morally reprehensible

And we'll explain why and it will be interesting. I haven't seen a whole lot that Jacob Hansen has said on this topic so It could be

You know, I I hope I hope he's fairly straightforward In the debate we've been looking at, you know, it's been argued that he wasn't all that straightforward

But we'll see anyway speaking of that debate. I think before getting to anything else

Which would include Talking a little bit about Response from Dan McClellan and a few things like that.

I Don't want to put off finishing the cross -examination from the debate in Salt Lake City much longer for those of you who haven't been listening a debate took place last

December in Salt Lake City between Joe Hechemeyer and Jacob Hansen on the great apostasy and That's what

Joe Hechemeyer came to debate Jacob Hansen came to debate the Roman Catholic papacy and what that did was allow us to address all sorts of cool topics and that's what we've been doing and We'd sort of taken about a week off.

I guess from the last time we Did this because we were responding to other things, but I want to try to finish that up So that Well, so we can be done with it

Not I don't have to keep the little notes on my screen that says you're this far into this and all the stuff you got to do for that, so My gut feeling is that Probably if we're able to do it

Next Tuesday so a week from today Probably gonna try to do the program from the from the

RV will be set up at Deer Valley So I've got to test it.

I test it before we leave so Sorry if that puts pressure on you We're all fine here now.

Yes, okay You know rich is the one doing all the tinkering and wiring and connecting and putting wood underneath the desk and While still leaving the death desk able to go up and down and do stuff like that So what so I did test that this morning.

So the System the rack that I'm putting in there to be able to melt things to and be able to move them around if you want to I had to extend it up and so I actually took the table all the way up and then measured how far

I have to work with and got my My cutting wheel out and cut them all down. So yeah about that much space

So it's gonna be very versatile for you. Oh good. So yeah, I've never had one of those standing desks and The thought definitely crosses my mind that after a long day sitting

Driving that it might not be a bad thing to be able to put that thing up and help the old back

Stuff like that. So that should prove to be pretty Pretty interesting and work out pretty well.

So anyways, probably a week from today We'll do the program from there you'll get to see it for the first time it may not be completely the way it will be because I've Arranged some things

I want to have in the background not lights or anything like that. Just pictures and stuff whether I'll be able to I've gotten them up by then is

Highly questionable. It'll probably be when we do some programs on the road before That all gets there because the night before We have decided as a family

Summer's coming over. She's actually gonna be speaking at GCU and That same day that I'm bringing the

RV over For it's a it's a it's an RV parked. We used to stage so, you know, you get your

Refrigerator going you go buy your food, you know, I Used to do that sitting outside my house these it's just too big too dangerous.

The roads not wide enough. We're gonna get hit so just can't do that at the house anymore and so we put it in the park and So that's where we'll be so I'll be setting that up and then that afternoon

I don't think my not don't think my son's be able to go but since summer is gonna be on this side of the valley

We're gonna go see Project Hail Mary and If you haven't if you haven't read the book

I'd personally recommend reading the book or at least listening to the book. That's how I did it on audible But I'm really looking forward to this

I rarely see movies in theaters and If I wanted to see it,

I think it's in the premiere. I'd see it this weekend I guess it's maybe already in some theaters right now. I don't

But yeah, we're gonna see it that afternoon Because summer and I both listened to the book and really enjoyed it and it's one of these

What's like guys named we're yeah who did the Martian? great writer

Super technical on stuff, but he explains it real well and it's He comes up with some pretty wild Story arcs and I'm really looking forward to this one

It should prove to be very interesting when I saw the guy they've got playing the main character.

I'm like, yeah Yeah, that's that's pretty perfect. You know now that I think back to the book.

I'm going I bet he had him in mind Forget the guy's name. I me and stars

You know, did you see the stuff about the Oscars Oh Or is the Academy Award what that same thing

Or what was what was this last Sunday? There was some big award show. I never watch any of them.

I could care less about any of it Yeah, there was some big award show Oscars Emmys, I don't know.

Anyway, you can tell I really really care about Hollywood but the big story was

The release of this DEI List for to even be considered to win the award.

These are the things you have to fulfill all this DEI stuff and Then there was a list of all the former winners

Major films like gone to the wind and all the rest this guy's stuff that could never even be considered for the award today because it would not pass the

DEI standards and you're like Why does anybody care?

These people are so self -important. They think they are so they they think they run the country and Honestly almost nobody

I know cares what they think but there they are Anyway, that's another thing.

I don't even want to get into all that. All right, let's let's get back to this here Because I do want to get some other things.

I don't think we have a whole lot of Stuff left in this one, but there is some interesting things.

So let's get it full screen Get this down at the bottom. And I think this is exactly where we stopped last time.

At least I hope it is up and Dude to do to do see

I I have to have it so I can hear it to cue things up and That messes everything up and so now

I've got to Go back here. Just a skosh.

Hopefully not too far Okay Daniel to There are four kingdoms.

What is the fourth king? Not sure Okay, would you agree with me that during the time of the fourth kingdom

Christ will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed Not sure I'm gonna punt on that because I don't

I don't necessarily I don't yeah I'm just gonna seem like you're not really committing to I mean I don't want to commit to any particular interpretation made by Latter -day

Saints because again for the sake of the debate I could you the apostasy being a reality is a matter of if someone can show the

Continual existence of an institutional church going all the way back that held the authority of Peter If there's a biblical prophecy that says

Christ is gonna establish a church and will never be destroyed Wouldn't that meet that burden or why would you have to look to anything after that?

What if that church was the body of believers? Let me answer the question then the church if in Scripture If the church has a body of believers and he says that it's going to continue

I agree with so in John 10 when Jesus says he has other sheep and he's gonna draw them into one flock So there's one shepherd in one flock.

What does he mean by that? You know, I I would say that the body of believers that exist in All the world will be brought into one flock

But I don't believe Sorry, here's a future event. This is not something he's gonna do during his incarnation.

I don't know Okay first Timothy 3 when the church is described as the pillar and foundation of the truth and st

Paul tells Timothy if he wants to know how to behave to look to that church He's at an amorphous body of believers or is that an institutional church?

I just point out that in context. That's a local church. I Mean, how can

Timothy behave in a universal church? No, no the the context of that the the church as the pillar and ground of the truth

You know, they want to make this the big universal church and okay if you want to make that type of application but you've got to start with what

Paul was actually saying and Paul was actually talking about the local church in which

Timothy was the bishop of the local church Okay, and not just the bishop as if there was a monarchical

Episcopate already one of a group of elders And it was that local church and you might go

I'm I'm comfortable saying the church is the pillar and foundation of truth as long as it's the universal church but local church,

I mean There are so many problems in local churches Yeah, there are but what has

God chosen as the means by which the

Truth is to be proclaimed and upheld His church the local church

That's where the sacrament is is found. That's where the supper is celebrated. That's where baptism takes place is the local church and if you want to Extract from that into something greater

Feel free to try to do so in context But it's gonna be pretty tough

Because that's the immediate context of Paul's words Well, I think the word church can be used in in different senses

It can be used to describe the body of believers For example in the word in Greek for church that they use is an assembly

Yeah, it's it's it's it's a body of believers not an institution But it can refer to an institution to be fair And I think that and I do believe that the institution of the church existed at the time

I think it would probably be the institutional church that existed at that time, which was connected to Peter. So Which was connected to Peter?

Where do you get that? I? mean, that's Um the only way from from a

Mormon perspective to get that would be through some kind of priesthood thing that but it'd be

Peter James and John were the ones that came back and and Allegedly restored the Melchizedek priesthood

I've just never heard that kind of emphasis before certainly not for many of the Mormons.

I've talked to emphasis upon Peter But yeah,

I That's almost giving the Catholics something but even then

That's an a historical claim to begin with As we've demonstrated in every debate we've done on the papacy your understanding of the body of believers.

Is this an assembly a Visible community of believers or is it just every believer wherever they may be?

It's a good question. Um, I would say that it's every person who desires

Light and truth and beauty and goodness because Christ is the

That Christ is the manifestation of that in the world and so they without knowing it are seeking

God and so all Well that that sounds almost like an inclusive mystic

Mormonism and again You can you can find

Quotations, I mean Mormonism is a modern religion and The printing press had been invented by the time

Mormonism comes along And so there are volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes of writing.

You've got the journal discourses you you've got the books that Were written by early leaders and for you know, 150 years now and so you can find a quote anywhere

I suppose to say anything But again You can also find far more in the authoritative teachings of the general authorities

That limit the expression of Christ Church To a particular organization that was founded

April 6 1830 and Central to that claim is the concept of the priesthood

I mean, okay Is that is it possible that's being diminished in modern

Mormonism? Yeah, I Suppose so. I mean I still talk to plenty of Mormons that will

You know defend that concept but still it's just a like put this way

I I Don't think any Jacob Hansen's existed in the 1980s

Okay, you know there was that one guy out in Mesa that was sort of ecumenical. So maybe maybe

I'm not right about that, but Things they'd be a -changin up there in up there in Salt Lake City if they're an assembly, how are they assembled?

Like if you said all left -handed people are in assembly. I wouldn't know what that means So, what do you mean when you say everyone seeking after Christ is somehow an ecclesia a church and assembly

Hmm I think that is a good question. Um, I would say at the top of my head something like Notice he's not giving us

Official statements and think about it for a second. I think this is one of the real ironies of Mormonism Just just think about for a second these people claim that their current leaders are

Our Apostles of Jesus Christ, can you imagine if there was a living

Apostle? Everybody would be glued To everything that person was saying

I think Mormons have become so accustomed to making that claim

That the outlandishness of it has been lost on them and Especially modern younger

Mormons are so accustomed to dismissing someone like Bruce R. McConkie Just That that you're they don't seem to realize you're dismissing an apostle

Or when when the Mormon Church threw Brigham Young under the bus a few years ago on the priesthood in the blacks issue

Again Did anybody stop to think you know my priesthood authority? When I was given my patriarchal blessing my priesthood authority line goes through Brigham Young So if he was all wrong about that, then how do

I know I have the priesthood? It's it's like they just don't even think about stuff like that anymore

The unique epistemological claims of Mormonism now this guy holds to a more what does he call it?

sort of a majoritarian Epistemology something like that There's similar views even amongst

Roman Catholics But again, this is all new stuff this is this is

Not what Brigham Young was teaching. This is This was would have been unheard of in the 1950s in Utah At BYU up there at that time that kind of stuff when people to gather together to do good and to lift it like if a group of people in I don't know, let's say

China Get together and do something good and beautiful and true to lift other people

I would consider that an assembly in a sense the Church of Christ. Okay. Okay now

How does that work? What if they're Buddhists? What if they're atheists?

That's an assembly of Jesus Christ again, this is

This is ishy -squishy Mormonism at best

It just way outside of what I What I would

Remember it all from any of the the Mormons with whom I've discussed the nature of the church anything like that And it can be made to say anything

Again you you've got you've had over a hundred

I forget what was it 189? Let's say a hundred and ninety Apostles of Jesus since 1830

Shouldn't you be able to just go to them? Why are you making stuff up off the top of your head? Isn't that a little strange then that sort of say

Yeah, don't really believe that they were Apostles like Paul was or like Peter was

It's at least a few steps down functionally for you In Matthew 18 when you're to confront a brother you're gonna have one -on -one and then after that you're to go to or three

And if he doesn't listen to you, then you go to the church who adjudicates it He's that an amorphous body of believers or is that an institutional?

No, in that case like I already said sometimes it does refer to an institution At that time an institution did exist and and that's that institution helps to guide the body of believers

Where are some passages where it talks about there being two churches one institutional one assembly? Well the meaning of the word

Ecclesia as you said that the Greek term is not about an institution, but it's about Well, it can be used in either way sometimes words can be used in two senses

Where do we find anywhere in the New Testament that distinguishes those two senses in the context you already brought up?

Sometimes it's clear that they're referring to an institution. Sometimes it's clear. They're referring to a body of believers. Okay So when st.

Paul describes the church as the body of Christ Is that just body of believers or is there an institutional reality there? I would say kind of as you you said tonight that the it is

The body believers make up the essence of it But the fullness of it is manifest when you have the body of believers guided by the fullness of the institution

Okay, so you would agree that the body of Christ is honored and growing as the church for 2 ,000 years

I would say that as as it it says that God is working through all peoples of various religions

I don't believe that there's okay. Now that that's that's a Weasley way of getting around that it is not the

LDS doctrine that the church as Intended by God equipped by God and a and given authority by God to proclaim the gospel and to baptize and give the

Holy Spirit existed for 2 ,000 years and if you say it's just hey, if a bunch of Pagan practicing

Pacific Islanders Get together in 1300

To do something good. Ah There is the church Give me the

Apostles that taught that your Apostles They're just not there. This is this is the new

Mormonism. This is the the the and and there's no There's no guidelines, there's no objective way of defining what this is and Since the leadership is not cracking down on this stuff as far as I can see

There will not be an identifiable Mormon Church outside of the people that control the hundreds of billions of dollars that they possess they are

Filthy rich. I had somebody tell me Within the last week that their primary financial

Institution You know controls their investments stuff like that just past a trillion dollars

Okay. So this institution is filthy rich and filthy rich institutions

Can afford to buy a level of unity That Poor institutions can't but no institution can survive an amorphous definition of its very being and That's what

Mormonism is developing, you know Mormonism grew when it had

Bruce R. McConkie's it doesn't have Bruce R. McConkie's anymore and its growth is natural and it's actually in in in participation

Parameters not growing at all The back door is as big as the front door So why is that?

Well when you have a strong message You'll attract people

Once you start trying to do this kind of stuff. I Don't I don't think it's going to be attractive at all

No salvation outside of the Catholic Church I don't believe that there's no salvation outside of the

Catholic Church as is taught by the Catholic Church Okay in the groups that Joseph Smith mentioned there about God working through people doesn't he mentioned non -christians like Jews So would you say they're part of the church then if they're seeking light goodness truth and beauty

To the best of their ability with the knowledge that they have than they are So you think when Joseph Smith says

God works through the Jewish people this means the same thing as when the new testament talks about the church In a sense.

Yes, but in a sense No It depends on if you're talking if they're part of the institution or not I actually believe that the Catholic Church and the good faithful Catholics in this room that you guys are part of the church in That sense is the body of sincere seekers and believers and our invitation to you is to come and see and get to know us

Because our belief is that the institution Which is what we're talking about Its fullness needs to be restored its fullness has been restored what was restored the priesthood authority and I just I invite you to read many of the sermons from Brigham Young and his cohorts as they went to Utah and This is not let me put this way.

Okay. I've said this more than once Pope Francis if he held to his positions would have been burned by the

Inquisition the year 1600 and And Jacob Hansen would have been disappeared in Utah By a group called the

Danites. Okay Never to be heard of again

Never find his bones In a in a less than pleasant manner, yes, definitely just think

Mountain Meadows massacre style, okay There ain't no way That Jacob Hansen would survive under Brigham Young Ain't gonna happen ain't gonna happen and I don't know if that's gonna come up in our debate

But I might try to find some way to sneak that in just just sort of fun of it because this is just so different than the

Mormonism of the last well a century and a half ago I was gonna say the last century, but It's so different from the

Mormonism of the last century up until about the 1990s Would could you clarify does

Amos 8 refer to Samaria or does it refer to the early Christians? I actually think you made a good point on that I actually think that the the early and I don't think that's a good scripture to use to argue for an apostasy

Are there any passages you have raised this evening that foretell a great apostasy?

I haven't brought up any because I know I'm not making an argument from for the apostasy from Scripture I'm making That's interesting because Mormons do and Mormons did make an argument for the apostasy from Scripture and I wonder how many general authorities

Repeated those arguments and taught those arguments and how many of those arguments appeared in the official?

writings of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints and We're taught to generations of Mormons But can now be oh

Yeah, you know, I think that's good point. Yeah, I don't think I'd use that anymore Okay, Jacob, you're you're not one the general authorities

So evidently you do have a fundamentally different view of Of the authority structure of the

LDS Church Then at least the people who ran the LDS Church for 150 years did

So if we figure from April 6 1830, let's say to 1980. Okay. I started really studying

Mormonism right around that time Really got into it 82.

Okay Let's use that first hundred and fifty years

I'm sorry. This was not the authority structure that was a part of the official writings of The first presidency

I would hope you would agree first presidency sort of speaks for Mormonism and you don't and I don't

I cannot imagine an LDS doctrine of the priesthood That would allow you

To override the authority claims of Apostles and prophets

You know, I'd love I'd love to hear Maybe I can find it.

Maybe someone can find for me. That'd be really nice. Someone can find for me where Jacob Hansen has addressed and defended the

LDS claim of the restoration of the priesthood Because something tells me

He's a sharp guy But the fact of the matter is the

Mormon view of the priesthood is not a sharp doctrine That was an invention of Joseph Smith after the founding of the church

David Whitmer made that very clear the changes between the 1833 Book of Commandments and 1835

Doctrine and Covenants also made that very clear and It happened fast

Part of it was in response to challenges within the church challenges from outside the church

But biblically it is a horrifically Expressed framed doctrine that just runs

Ironic priesthood clearly Joseph Smith knew nothing about the Book of Hebrews didn't understand it

Um Melchizedek priesthood same thing so yeah,

I mean that would be a That'd be a great debate That would definitely be a worthwhile debate.

I'm just not sure what Mormons anymore would take the debate No old -style

Mormons would But these new Mormons I'm I don't know in Scripture if such a thing were to happen um

Perhaps and I think that there are verses that can be argued that way though the specific ones I have mixed opinions on I Again, they can be argued that way you have

You have 15 living Apostles of Christ. It has been the constant claim of the

Mormon Church From the time I started talking to Mormons That you have continuing revelation

I Mean you and the Catholics sort of do share one thing

Both sides are always like well, hey, you know, we're not like you guys We have the living voice of God during general conference or we can go to the

Pope and get infallible guidance You know the last time he did that was what

Bodily assumption of Mary which is one of the most a historical silly claims ever made

You know you guys do that but when you get when you when you sort of wishy -wash stuff and ignore

What these Apostles have written for? 150 years Aren't you sort of telling all of us?

Yeah, we claim that but you know, we don't really believe that I mean, come on, that's pretty weird to extend that kind of authority and it is but We're sort of hearing how you're handling it.

I think I would let other Latter -day Saints that are more scripturally, you know minded For me,

I'm looking just at the plain history and the plain history indicates that there's no institution They can that has a continuous existence

Well The papacy as defined in Vatican one didn't exist

No, no, no, no, no that was it believe me Joe I'm glad that you're not part of the pre 1965 church because I think we all can agree that there were some reforms needed in the

Catholic Church in the Middle Ages Okay, so if you say the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages doesn't that contradict the idea the

Catholic Church didn't exist until 1870 Okay, that was that was good that was good

That that that's a and I'm sure he's gonna point out well, but remember what

I actually said The definition of the

Catholic Church if I don't understand what you mean by the essence of it The reality is that the papal institution has been evolving the doctrines of the

Catholic faith Even its dogmas are evolving over time. That's clear in the history And so it's hard to say when you say well, when did it begin?

It didn't begin in a moment. It's been a but if we're watching the theology of Mormonism evolving right in front of us

Isn't that same thing? I mean we have a start date that you have provided For the restored

Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints April 6 1830 right So if if I'm right and I think

I am that What Jacob Hanson is saying now

Would have gotten him disappeared in 1850s,

Utah Is that development and if the development within Roman Catholicism means the

Apostasy took place hasn't a new apostasy taking place within Mormonism. I Mean you can sort of see

You know, he said I'm not the scriptural one. Well, we haven't heard much solid scriptural

Argumentation, I mean Joe Heschmeier in his opening statement used a number of the verses that I would use

God the Father receives glory through the church throughout all ages Ephesians things like that but certainly the scriptures have not been the central focus during the cross examination a slow evolution of doctrine and dogmas and authority and claims over time

So there's an evolution and change in dogmas like Adam God or plural marriage or whether black people can be priests maybe

Okay, he wanted he wanted to throw that out there, okay wanted to get that out there and it's true all those all those things are changes and There's more to it than even those

And he's smiling over there and he's he's laughing you'd throw out your your attacks of Mormonism All right.

Let's just say that it doesn't it isn't relevant to this debate because if I get of course It's relevant in this debate.

It is central in this debate if the original Thesis statement had any meaning

There is a historical background to The term the great apostasy there is a doctrine an identifiable doctrine taught by Mormonism by that name there's no way around that and so if Mormonism itself has apostatized

If there has been the same kind of evolution and change and development, there you go sucked into a debate where I'm trying to It will it will it will take away from this debate because the debate is about if there is an institution with a continual existence

No, no It's not it's where the great apostasy took place.

That's a doctrine. It's a discernible doctrine. It's a definable doctrine and The problem is for Jacob.

It has been defined and discussed by men that he claims Or that they claimed

We're apostles of Christ and Within the past hundred and fifty years, there's no there's no question about the transmission of the text or anything like that It's right there

And yet it seems to me that the new Mormons are willing to run away from their own history and Redefine things on the fly

Question is specifically about that. Are you saying that if an institution does something new or different that it means it's a new institution?

What is the essence of the institution if the essence of the institution is the is the papacy and it's infallible universal jurisdiction

Then I have to find a time when that didn't exist. That's our time. Okay, and and that and That's a good illustration

Okay Jacob is right He's correct The papacy is defined by Vatican one did not exist in The ancient church no question about it

That that definitely invalidates the claims of Modern Roman Catholicism But the

LDS Church claims That the essence of the church is connected to the priesthood,

I mean I've had many a Mormon expressed to me that the very power of God is

The power of procreation the power of the priesthood. That's what defines God the ability to procreate and to have the priesthood and You can make an argument for that again from Apostles and prophets

So Where is that that wasn't in the early church and in fact that wasn't in existence on April 6 1830.

I mean, I know the official story. Well, yes, it was That didn't really develop later, but it did it's self -evident that the documentation is overwhelming

So, there you go so I Hope this has been useful to you to Hear both sides and to be able to sort of bounce them off of each other.

I just thought was a unique opportunity I'm really glad that it took place.

I Think both guys Did a good job. I mean I've criticized both of them on on all sorts of aside from just disagreeing with both sides on fundamental things

You know, I I think Hesh Meyer should have really pressed the priesthood issue could have if he had wanted to and And I think

Jacob You know, it does make me a little nervous about a couple weeks from now

Because At least with our thesis statement, I'm not sure there's quite as much wiggle room, but I would have thought

The great apostasy would have been clear enough in of itself to keep the guardrails up But it wasn't and I had somebody contact me

They linked me to a video something that Jacob Hansen did recently and then the video got taken down and I didn't get to grab

It unfortunately, but the guy was basically saying just be prepared You won't end up debating what you think you're debating.

Well, okay I Can keep that from happening

You know, I get half the time I Can I can be a stick in the mud if I need to and stay focused on what's important, you know

Try to rescue something from the debate if that's what I need to do I've done a few so we're good.

Um Couple things here real quick We've got a few minutes left here. Um, I Wanted to comment on something when the stuff with Joel Webben and man

You it's hard for me to even keep up with The wild and wacky stuff that has come out since the last program from the wild and wacky world of Joel Webben You know the stuff with Robinson and stuff him

They had that partridge on and And they're literally talking about Robinson's literally saying that Jesus Worshiped the father he didn't worship himself or he said some crazy thing

Again this the Jews the Jews the Jews He also said some crazy thing about literally changing

From 432 to 440 Hertz the note a and That this makes people angry or something like that.

Someone just pointed out that Brian Salve's a is 440 Hertz. So I guess that's meant to drive people crazy

I mean they're getting into some really really weird stuff and it's like as long as as long as Someone says it was a

British accent Um, it's like must be true must be good

Instead of going. I don't know that doesn't really sound quite right there about Musical notes and stuff weird anyway

But Something it had, you know, remember we played the clip it came out right we were on the air last week

Where you know Joel couldn't answer a simple question does the Bible say Mary was a Jew I don't think it says

Mary was a Jew yeah, it actually does and Joel knows that and could have answered that question in three seconds, but Had to run all of the numbers about supporters.

There's the problem When you live on clicks When you have a

Coalition you've cobbled together of people who do not have a common core outside of their hatred of the

Jews Okay, and that's not enough to hold a group together then you've got to run all these filters and if I say this and if I say that and you can just see the the processor going

You know that was embarrassing and You know, they eat he did something later why

I just didn't want to get things off track I wanted to be able to get to the gospel right

Okay Spin and damage control that's gonna be something. He's become an expert at and is becoming an expert at So, sorry,

I just happen to look over and Jay how Had Posted something from The weather is the weather where he is right now.

It's 19 degrees Because I was talking about the fact that in a matter of days

It's gonna be 95 degrees to the high today. What is it right now? It's 93 at my house 90. No, it's 95 down Down at the airport and And Friday and Saturday they're talking 107

Here you didn't know that. Oh, yeah 107 by Friday, you know the all -time record high

The 20th of March is right now 96 degrees That would be 11 degrees

Beyond the all -time record. We're used to breaking a record by a degree maybe two

Eleven You plot that out and by August we'll be living on the surface of the

Sun That's just that's just all there is to it. Anyway, sorry, you got distracted by what's on the screen over here

So I made some comment Oh, I'm sorry

Tom Buck The troublemaker from Texas made a comment he reposted

Bill Roach who made a comment and a guy named

Greg Williams, okay, Greg Williams is pastor of the historic First Baptist Church Alumni of TTU, RTS, SEBTS and CIU.

I know two of those don't know the rest of them And He was actually defending

Joel Webben, which is interesting and then he said

Not deeply addressing it was wise so he was actually defending Webben's response

Much like when James White said he would use preferred pronouns if Okay, there is no logical connection between those two things.

I mean, I Mean, it's like what I mean, even if I had said that what and I guess the idea is

Well, Joel just wanted to get to the gospel, he wasn't getting to the gospel His motivation was not the gospel.

That was obvious But I was like, huh What are you talking about?

He comes back. I have a great memory I was one of the top graduate of my school and he links me to an article that he wrote

Seven years ago. The only thing I can say I'm thankful for is that it included links

To the dividing line because I wouldn't have been able to find find this or love your money and what it was

I Didn't go back. I don't have time. I've got debates coming up You know,

I literally need to be starting to pack so I can get going on the trip Just don't have time for it but I did look at the article and brought up the dividing line and I remember

It was 2019 and I think

I know what group had written an article going after Sam Albury. I Won't mention the group because they just love to be mentioned

But I think I know who it was anyway, and so I had Downloaded he had done a presentation for RZIM It tells you how long ago this was and I had gone out on a ride.

I remember where I was on the canal I do remember this part. It's interesting strange

That's one thing I miss about doing a lot of riding outside. I haven't done any since last year Still riding but it's all inside now

Which is still very enjoyable much safer Don't have to worry about all the needles and the underpasses on the canal seriously, honestly

That's how bad things have gotten but um, I remember that I remember the ride and I had been surprised

There's lots of things I disagree with Sam Albury on seven years ago, and I have not been following him since then so I don't know

Where he's developed What direction stuff like that, but I remember that I Purchased His book is

God anti -gay. It was a short book. So I bought on Kindle and I Read it

Listened to it and I had been really surprised. I had been surprised in the context of the fact that on the biblical passages on The subject there are only so many

He had taken the exact same position that Jeff Neal and I had in our book in 2000 2001 2001

Um, and So I had nothing to disagree with and when I listened to his presentation

It was considerably more nuanced than this group had represented it to be So what he focused on what this

Greg Williams guy focused on was I Admitted that when he talked about the pronoun issue

That he had brought up some stuff that I hadn't thought about and when you

Think about the pronoun issue. I say 99 .95

and I still say it 99 .95 % of this is just direct rebellion These are people who know

God's command They they know what they are and they are in rebellion.

It's self -deception but it's rebellion and So you have to deal with that rebellion but he brought up the fact that We do have people who are being raised in completely secular context now

Can't expect you can't expect the public indoctrination system. That's all it is The public indoctrination system to Communicate a

Meaningful even basic knowledge of biblical categories any longer. I Mean, I would imagine there are lots of students

Whose only exposure to the Bible now are Rare Accidental encounters in a book they might read

Most people don't read books anymore Okay So maybe a meme

Okay, they run across and what he pointed out

Was how do you deal with someone who doesn't even have the categories to discuss? Creation creation order and I made the statement

I said in that context I Wouldn't view it as a hill to die on but then

I immediately said what you need to start with But I'd go with somebody there is what did

Jesus say about these things? So all I was saying was instead of making the rebellion of the pronoun issue the central thing leave that aside because There's no foundation for going there with that small number of people which is a growing number of people that small number of people who have

No idea of creation order at all No idea what the Bible says you've got to that's that's the wrong hill to die on because it's like that hill is

Up the hill from this hill and you used to be able to assume that everybody knew about the first hill

And so you had to die on that hill but if there's people down here that Don't even have a concept of Creation order

Anything like that? That's where you got to start. You can't this isn't

You don't have the language to even go there. That's all I was trying to say. I would never Use someone's preferred pronouns

It doesn't matter who they are but if it's someone who

Has never Basically never had contact with Christians. I mean there are some cities in the

United States these days There really are It you know, it just remind me of it reminds me of Eric and Cantor when

Eric and Cantor Claimed that he was in high school before he met his first Christian Because remember he came from Istanbul trained as a jihadi and The reality was he had grown up in Ohio And you know had gone from like second grade on in the

Ohio school system Where many of the teachers would have been Christians and there would have been

Christians all around him Just reminded me of that crazy claim, but there might be places where you run into someone like that You know,

I could see certain places in Seattle, you know, Portland Some of the

West Coast and East Coast cities where it has become completely secular and Absolutely, no idea of anything else

With them. You've got to start with Jesus's authority first before you even start talking about Rebellion pronouns created order all the rest of us.

That's what I was talking about He wrote this whole long article About how

I had changed my views and to be honest with you No one had ever pointed out to me not to my recollection anyway

Not in seven years and so the one thing that I can be thankful for is

That in that article he linked to stuff so I didn't have to waste look for it and But he missed my whole point anyway

Now I wanted to get to Dan McClellan, but I'm not going to So we'll do it on the next program

But you remember on the last program We jumped into his claim.

There is no monotheism the Bible And I point out to at the time he's using

Modern categories Scholarship that Begins is grounded in and begins with the assumption of the non -inspirational scripture the incoherence scripture the incompatibility of scripture in the sense that All the

JEDP theory There was no Moses The Pentateuch is a massively self -contradictory

Bunch of Disparate traditions that didn't come together until you know the

Millennium before Christ and Hundreds of years into that all that kind of stuff so We start at very very different places and of course he will sit there and He will say and of course, this is the scholarly consensus

Actually, I think he thinks he is the scholarly consensus but Let me just read you one thing and then

I'll read this for you again, I Download it

I transcribed it and I gave it to Claude and I just started using

Claude I Just started throwing stuff at Claude and I'm pretty impressed.

No toys about him and So he gave I asked for a quick summary

He says the tone is consistently condescending throughout He opens by framing the entire response as an exercise in demonstrating your ignorance of contemporary scholarship

And that posture never really changes true And so I looked at it and I had queued up I Wasn't gonna spend nearly as much time on the cross

X but it got interesting I'll keep it queued up for the next program. I have a

McClellan video on a different topic that is a little more clearly obvious how he and I do scholarship very differently and I I Admit that I mean he attacks.

I'm not a scholar Diploma mill all the other cast Interesting thing is he didn't even bother

To give any kind of a compelling counter exegesis because that's not what he does the text of the

Bible for scholars like him is Something to be fit into your theories. It's not something to be

Made the standard we do we do what we do for completely different reasons

Utterly different reasons and I I'm glad for that. I truly am Um Claude found his response of less than useful let's put that way but I have his comments on Genesis 18 and 19

Sodom and Gomorrah and homosexuality and It just so happens.

I wrote the chapter in the same -sex controversy on Genesis 18 and 19 So what

I thought would be useful Because these are topics that people are work struggling with working with all the time

Well, I thought would be useful would be to play his comments and then respond exegetically not

I'm not gonna play The I'm a greater scholar than you game Because I don't

I don't matter. He thinks he's the very standard of scholarship. He really does you can just tell He opens every video.

I'm Dan McClellan and I'm a Bible scholar, you know, there there are people like that I get it but I always say

Here's what the word says Okay, and then I bring scholarship to bear to accurately do that and do that with consistency

The problem is from his perspective. There is no such thing as consistency The only consistency he can have is that God has not spoken not with any kind of clarity at all

Um because of the starting presuppositions of his perspective so There's a quick summary of what we'll look at next time and I'm sure there'll be other things look to ice

I still wanted I thought I had that Robinson thing I'll try to track it down for the next program and we'll

Talk about that too. So Okay, there you go, thanks for listening to the program today, like I said, hopefully on on Thursday we can get to that stuff and Then you know

You know riches promised to have everything done and perfect He's it and the nice thing now is the windows back

Okay, so he's saying something in there, but I can't hear anything. It's it's it's good

You know, I he can type now. I don't hear the typing his phone can go off. I don't hear the phone going off It's uh, it's good.

Now. He's got a soundproof the door and it'll be it'll be it'll be done. We'll we'll be Ready to go but no

Rich probably has a little to do just a couple little things between now and then, you know

We'll probably have to do some tweaking. But hey, we got to test it out It's just it's just necessary to get it done.

So that's what we'll be that's what we'll be doing next week and I'm looking forward to it.

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to to having that really

You know, we had a real nice studio in the Jacob. We really did. That was a nice setup

It was I spent almost all my time in there I'd bring my food in there and eat in there and the computer was there.

That's what I'm gonna be doing with this thing and The view will be much nicer too

From oh, I know. I know it did you had put you dislocated your knee doing that.

Remember that? Yes, if I want to If I don't want to hear you then

I can't hear you. That's that's that's how it works. Anyway So I'm looking forward to it next week.

I hope you are too Thanks to everybody who makes it possible for us to be doing this stuff and we will see you on the next program