Cultish: Jehovah's Witnesses Part 2

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Inside the Mind of Manson: Part 3

00:00

Alright, welcome back everyone to part two of this conversation slash interview.

00:06

We are here This is cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts and one of the co -hosts here

00:11

I am with Andrew super sleuth song current the super sleuth of the show How'd you like that first part of this conversation man?

00:18

It was wild I was loving the conversation and I can't wait to hear what's next. I think everyone's going to be really interested in Enthralled by this story.

00:27

So clay you have a wonderful story and I can't I cannot wait to hear more Okay so when we just to recap you were talking in the last episode about You had left the watchtower and you if you guys haven't heard that definitely check out the first part of this

00:40

Conversation and in the process of just trying to make sense of where think of how things happened

00:46

You got into a lot of different new age spirituality just getting to all different forms of like meditation yogi

00:53

Look at going after yoga gurus doing like different kundalini yoga stuff like that Just jump back into like a lot more of that whole process of where you were and what you're trying to jump into Yeah, well, you know after I left the religion

01:08

I felt very lost and I had a light experience and I don't know exactly what it was

01:14

I just felt buzzing. I saw a light Come down. I was in a dark room by myself and I Just had a presence come

01:23

With me and I you know in my spiritual condition that I had been told I was in from my religion There was no way that I could view that presence or that You know experience as God.

01:34

Yeah to me I felt like I had been possessed by demons because that's what they pretty much promised me what happened if I had left the religion and so You know hindsight being 2020 all these years later

01:45

I do realize that that was God because after that I was changed and I was seeking

01:50

God and spirituality Like I had never saw before and I couldn't go to Christianity at that time.

01:57

There's no way it was gonna happen Okay, I've been ruined on Christianity. So that's why I went into the all the New Age Stuff I didn't feel any fear

02:06

I had prayed to God and said, you know I'm afraid of all this stuff and I felt like I had gotten the answer that there wasn't anything off -limits that I was allowed to check into anything that I needed to Mm -hmm.

02:16

And so I did without fear of any of it and you know grace of God I did did go through that unscathed the other day.

02:23

I think he did protect me and I think he was just Letting me exhaust every thing

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I could Because in the end, you know it all focused on Jesus in the end and I you know

02:34

I don't even know how that really happened. But but that's what did happen Yeah, I mean well one of the things too is that you know, we definitely know

02:42

Jesus says in John 6 44 No one comes unto me unless the Father draws him right and I'll raise him up on the last day

02:48

And I would say without question I mean all this mean there's every single person has a different story in which they came to faith like in Christ We all have the same gospel

02:58

We all have the same Jesus as Christians, but how we come about to knowing him and we have very different backgrounds

03:04

I mean we I have a different background from you and vice versa and all the same But um, but yeah,

03:10

I mean I definitely too would say to that God would definitely be protecting you especially giving the spiritual danger

03:17

Yeah of a lot of those practices and just and also I mean just I mean the fact that I would just think to the fact that the

03:23

Watchtower said that you would Demons would be going after you if you did leave and you were actually dealing with spiritual practices that Really a lot of those experiences are invoked with demonic and satanic power, right for sure

03:37

But just go ahead just continue with your journey where you're at man Well Nothing really helped.

03:45

I mean I was in bad shape by anxiety wise PTSD from all of this

03:52

Anger and I was still drinking and nothing was helping that I couldn't really stop that I was maintaining it trying to moderate it, you know trying to keep it at bay, but it was always something that took me over and So I kind of came to the end of my rope

04:09

With all of that and I gave up on a lot of the New Age Stuff, even though I left

04:15

Hot Springs and moved to Portland And met my soon -to -be wife

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Amy and she was really into the New Age stuff. And so we kind of like matched in that way We both did yoga together.

04:28

Yeah, she was like she would always call on the fairies She said uh -huh as kind of her divinity and she had been through rehab and actually was at 22 years sober

04:36

So her God of understanding, you know in rehab, they let you have a guy your own understanding was fairies for her

04:42

And I mean, I was like, okay, you know, whatever And of course, you know, I knew what fairies were from growing up Jehovah's Witnesses.

04:49

They were fallen angels So I was like, you know, but whatever I don't not here to judge and I don't you know, I didn't really care

04:55

You know what what her? Version of it was I knew mine wasn't you know mine.

05:01

I didn't really know what what what God was at that point, but I Was having a harder time with PTSD and the anger at that point and nothing was helping like I was said and I really loved

05:12

Amy and I didn't want to run this relationship so she kept saying a a was something that she had done that had really helped her and she talked about it for Three years straight.

05:22

Mm -hmm And so at one of the points where I had had an episode with alcohol and I had done something stupid and really

05:27

Made a fool of myself. I told her you know what? I'm gonna go to a I promise I will and of course

05:33

I didn't right away I just made the promise but I felt bad about that later because our relationship was getting worse

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And so I said, you know, I've got to fulfill that that promise. I made you to go to a a and So I decided to go and I was really desperate at that point

05:48

I my anger and anxiety and everything was over the top and I couldn't really control it at all and I didn't know what to do and I knew that was the symptoms of you know alcoholism the alcoholic mind that they talked about in a a and So I started going

06:02

I got a sponsor and I started working through the steps of a a and I noticed

06:08

I mean first of all, they tell you to believe in God the God of your choice And yeah me that was pretty easy. I went back.

06:14

I couldn't really deal with Jehovah, you know They really want to use this. There's some baggage there.

06:19

Yeah, there was some baggage with the name Jehovah and So I just started Using the tool that had gotten, you know,

06:27

God had used the Internet for me to research Jehovah's Witnesses and get out of that So I used the same thing that God had shown me things over the years on the

06:36

Internet and I just started Looking up Christian YouTube videos. Mm -hmm

06:43

And because I wanted to learn and I remember one of the first ones was Bible block Fox Which I think he was a Seventh -day

06:48

Adventist. Okay, and You know I I was like eating it up like all of a sudden the

06:53

Bible and Christianity and all that was making more sense and The big book of a is actually based on the gospel and chapter 5 in the big book is based on the book of James okay, and So as I was going through the steps,

07:07

I got to step 4 and that's admitting all of your Sins or the things that you've done wrong the things that hurt your conscience to someone else writing them all down You'd take inventory and you just it's a methodical process of really breaking down all of your sins all the things that you've done

07:22

That have made you feel bad about yourself And so going through that process I got convicted by the

07:29

Holy Spirit I didn't know what it was at the time, but I just felt smashed and I felt like I was being burned

07:36

Every time I mean I went to two three AA meetings a day Because of my anxiety and anger was going crazy.

07:44

I couldn't control myself So sometimes I would have to go to three meetings a day just to be calm Yeah, but at least one you're looking for an answer

07:51

Yeah from them, but but it's not an answer that they can necessarily provide so you're having to go multiple multiple times Oh, yeah

07:57

And yeah and basically there was a power that everybody feels like is in those meetings to keep you calm and there was there was a power there

08:03

We would say the Lord's Prayer at the end of every meeting We would open with a serenity prayer what's that was there with talking about like now you being an

08:12

AA and trying to like Go to these meetings. Did you feel like in hindsight?

08:18

Maybe there's a similarity between your time at the Watchtower You're having to go to meeting after meeting after meeting.

08:24

Yeah, and here I am out of the Watchtower, but I'm vicariously like living The same life.

08:30

I'm like reliving my past life as a so there's an aspect where it's all I would think like I'm trying to put myself in your shoes like yeah, there's a familiar discipline.

08:40

Yeah, there's this you're trying to do the performance to deal with that instead of doing instead of looking at the heart or looking at the one who can change your heart, but Go ahead

08:52

I mean they were amazed at how many meetings I just went to right off the bat because they didn't question and I already had That discipline from years of going to meetings

09:00

And It wasn't even a big deal for me and they're like wow you're making a lot of meetings and so those meetings were we're having an effect and God was using a a to get through to me and And So yeah,

09:13

I was watching those videos on YouTube and I came across Apologia the one from Bible block

09:18

Fox and There was another one school for profits, okay, and Apologia was the one that stood out the most to me because he was

09:29

You know preaching the gospel to Jehovah's Witnesses So that really helped me watch someone preach to a

09:35

Jehovah's Witness because I had a lot of doctrines in my head that were all Goofy, you know as compared to the real gospel and it was helping me straighten them out

09:43

Yeah Just so you know the very I think the very first video if you guys are watching this on YouTube You go to like the very first video ever that I think that we uploaded is

09:54

That it's a conversation that Jeff pastor Jeff had and I think pastor Luke was part of that discussion

09:59

But they it wasn't even a video. They just put down a Recorder in a park and you can hear planes flying over And they're just talking to them and that just really like blew up and that's how like the

10:12

YouTube channel changed I think back then it was like called defend the faith Like whatever YouTube channel is called now.

10:18

It's obviously Apologia Studios But yeah, so you saw us interaction engaging with the watchtower and go from there

10:24

Well the gospel the true gospel of Jesus Christ started becoming more and more apparent.

10:30

I Spontaneously started believing in the Trinity which was strange for me because as a Jehovah's Witness you do not believe in the

10:37

Trinity I mean I had refuted Trinitarians numerous times and one of the fun things was to watch

10:44

Dr. James White debate the Nathan Stanley, I believe it was it was witness on the

10:51

Trinity I hate that and I was just like wow, how can you not believe in the Trinity? And then I watched you know

10:57

Me as an ex Jehovah's Witness sitting there because I said all the same things he said Yeah to people who believed in the

11:03

Trinity so it was a real flip for me to watch those videos but to be on the opposite side now

11:08

Wow, yeah from a Supernatural way because I didn't I wasn't trying to believe in the

11:13

Trinity for anybody this was just something I privately went through on my own all of a sudden the Trinity made perfect sense to me and I Knew it was the truth and a lot of other things like I knew

11:22

I needed a church I knew I needed to hang out with I almost said Jehovah's Witnesses, but I needed to hang out with Christians, right?

11:31

Yeah, because you know when you try to hang out with people who aren't into this it's awful Yeah, you know nails on a chalkboard kind of feeling so In a

11:41

I was making more and more spiritual progress. They were noticing I was kind of getting notoriety They wanted me to chair a couple of meetings, which

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I still do to this day over the society group and Yeah, I just started making all this progress changes were happening to me

11:57

This was all regeneration, you know stuff that I learned about when I started coming to church, but then the videos the

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YouTube videos I started watching. Dr. James White Jeff Durbin more than any other one and I was like,

12:09

I love Jeff. He's awesome. And I love James way They're just telling the truth. And then I looked up where Apology a church was.

12:16

Mm -hmm, and I just moved to Phoenix a year ago So I didn't really know the area and apology a church was 15 minutes away

12:22

So I really feel like God was saying hey, here's your church and I really needed a church to be real

12:29

Mm -hmm. I needed it to show the love of Christ. Yeah, like there's a lot of things. It's funny the Jehovah's Witnesses have a list that shows

12:38

What the true religion would be, you know love of Christ all these things which they don't really

12:44

Follow or they don't Hit those marks on there, but apology It does in my opinion and I was really searching for something that was telling the truth

12:53

Was evangelizing because you know, the Jehovah's Witnesses do preach that you need to evangelize and they're right.

12:58

Mm -hmm I always knew that's one thing man. Is that that would what I Whenever I've talked to Jehovah's Witnesses I have to give him credit where credits do like you guys practice what you preach and you're doing what?

13:11

Christians should be doing and a lot of times like they They put us to shame as far as like their passion and their ability to yeah to you know

13:20

At least work for what they believe in I think Walter Martin said that they At least at the time when he was initially when he was alive and doing his ministry that they produce more

13:29

Literature than all the Christian denominations at his time like combined. Yeah, so you have to at least give him credit for that Yeah Well, I think anytime you have a cult you have to have truth in it in order for it to get people

13:42

Hooked because and then you know, you can intersperse the other stuff that you want in but you have to have some kind of core

13:48

Of truth which their moral code is one of the strongest. I mean, you can't be a Jehovah's Witness and smoke cigarettes

13:53

You can't be a fornicator. You can't yeah, any of these things you'll get kicked out and So they're very strong strict about the moral code and evangelizing, you know

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So those are the things that do have an effect They do have a power in the of themselves on people's lives that people can point at and go look

14:11

Jehovah's Witnesses had this effect on me because there's enough truth in there. I think to have a Power of its own

14:18

Wow, right? Yeah, I think um, and I think I just appreciate is that you talk about like the desire and like and the need to get in church and it's it's really important too because there are a

14:32

Lot of people who come out of these like spiritually abusive systems and Even people who become

14:40

Christians and who legitimately love Jesus and come to Christ But there's this

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I've seen this hesitancy to get into church there is an aspect where okay, you're a

14:52

Christian now and you need to take responsibility and do what God says which you know, there's an aspect where it's like you need to be part of a local body and It's just don't forsake the gathering of like God's people and there's important role of like the pastors and shepherds

15:07

You know who are called a like to be the guardian over your soul in a sense I mean at least in from a shepherds point mean the ultimate guardian of our soul is

15:14

Chris Jesus But there I think there's just a lot of baggage a lot of times people will have almost sort of you know

15:20

They want to go to regular church, but there's just so much Association with the past like oh a pastor who's like an authority over me.

15:29

That's a good and biblical thing but Authority that you've when you're dealing with a bad authority your whole life or distorted authority.

15:36

There's baggage that comes with that Yeah, once your trust is broken in that Structure. Mm -hmm.

15:42

It's really hard to ever want it again or to be able to trust it Yeah again, but what's cool about this time for me is

15:48

I'm not trusting a human being. I'm not trusting a human church I'm trusting God. Yeah, it sent me here and if things are messed up I mean one of the things they say in a which is kind of funny, but principles before personalities

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Yeah, you know so God's principles are what we're here for the personalities. I mean you have all kinds in any group

16:08

Yeah, but yeah, it was really hard to trust and I never thought I would want to go to a church again

16:14

I really did and I had no desire to be a Christian. I had no desire to be In a church situation or to be accountable

16:21

But one of the things you learn in a is that you really need to be accountable to somebody Yeah, you have to be it's part of worship.

16:29

So Amen. Yeah, and I was you know and watching Jeff's a lot of his stuff.

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He was talking about the need for a church. He mentions that at the end of I think is this week Segment a lot of times he mentions it a lot and I was thinking yeah,

16:43

I need that So when I saw that it was 15 minutes away, I thought well God's sending me here, but I still didn't go I don't think

16:49

I went Probably for two months after I realized it was 15 minutes away Because I was scared to and I also felt like, you know,

16:57

I'm new to this AA thing I'm kind of like over the top right now because I'm happy to be sober and finally not drinking or even thinking about it you know and They they tell you to calm down, you know, don't go too crazy when you first get in a so I thought

17:09

I was just like kind of freaking out a little bit with the God thing Even Amy was like downplaying it like, you know, just if you want to go to church, that's fine

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We'll find one and I didn't think much of it but The re like the effect that the energy or whatever it is.

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It was having the regeneration. It was having on me I was studying the Bible more and more reading more and more watching more and more videos

17:32

So it was becoming that effect was becoming more strong on me that I needed to get to church. So finally

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I get the day where I decide I'm gonna go and I've been telling

17:44

Amy this whole time. Hey, you know God's direct me towards this church it's gonna be great and I get her to go with me and we go and and It was a different experience because I've never been to a

17:56

Baptist Church I've never been to you know, I never like I said, we don't believe in Trinity. We didn't believe in hell.

18:02

Mm -hmm The whole concept of the way the gospel is that you're a sinner, you know your works mean nothing

18:09

Yeah, your works are dirty rags Okay, so I mean I want to ask you this real quick now.

18:15

I'm just a fence. Yeah What No, I what what's the experience like going to a

18:23

Kingdom Hall when it like musical wise well, I would say Comparatively, it's really good dead.

18:29

Okay, the music is canned It's a recording usually was a cassette. I did sound for years.

18:35

So it was a cassette. I would pop in and cue up the Piano music it was like a cassette of piano music.

18:40

Oh, wow Where they sing like Armageddon is coming One was were

18:46

Jehovah's Witnesses We speak out Fearlessly or something like that.

18:53

Oh, that was one of them. I have a lot of them Yeah, there were a lot of military March type songs. Yeah. Well, I remember those.

18:59

Yeah I have a few memorized there was one So nothing like there's so a classic him like come like more.

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No, no, they made them all up So anything that's like from the heart or emotion like one of my favorite ones is prone to wander

19:13

Lord I feel it. Yeah prone to leave the guy. I love take my heart Lord Lord and seal it seal it for thy courts above Yeah, if we got nothing like we got caught listening to any kind of other

19:23

Christian music besides ours. It was apostasy Wow Oh, yeah, I would bet but there's nothing as far as like any of the

19:29

JW songs There's nothing there wouldn't be anything like that. The light comes from the heart of like that sort of you know

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Look at our works. This is what we do. Look at what we do. Wow something else we do

19:41

Okay, so back so you're going to church and like so you've got all this Go ahead because I want to hear like how well a meeting

19:48

Yeah, I'm eating is uh, you know, the kids are in it kind of like apology. It does Yeah, they believe there shouldn't be a

19:54

Sunday school. Everybody learns together interesting yeah, and the I mean

20:00

Sunday would be a public talk, you know a discourse like Jeff gives and then after a Watchtower study from the publication of the watchtower.

20:07

Mm -hmm, and you know, you'd read scriptures. Everybody was required to Or expected

20:12

I should say to study Yeah, so, you know, you'd always want your watchtower marked up with notes and everything for everybody to see it

20:18

Not your Bible. Otherwise, it was embarrassing. You wouldn't want to open your bag. You hold it like this You'll make fun of like even like Christians now like an end that there's a joke like Christian girls on Instagram We're like they got to get the perfect filter and like the coffee and like they got to get the one page

20:34

It's got to be at least four or five different highlights not to but if you do like four or five then you're like Ultra -spiritual and I gotta get the right angle and get the right filter and there was a lot of that hashtag quiet time

20:47

Every year twice a year we got a Visit from what was called a circuit overseer and he was like a higher -up guy and everybody would it would always make me so Mad because everybody would put on extra

20:58

Like niceness like the the guy who was the jerk in the hall would suddenly be nice yeah, you know people would go out and buy new suits and get new haircuts and you know all this new stuff would come out and Everybody would put on this big show for the guy and I really like was rolling my eyes at that Like this is just super critical, you know, it's like this guy's just another guy

21:18

But yeah, it was a lot of a lot of show, you know, you'd want your comments to sound good You don't want to sound but you know, that's just the nature of works to me now, you know looking in at hindsight

21:29

But it's real dead in that way. I remember my sister Was coming to the meetings with me after she got this fellowship when

21:36

I was trying to go back and she was just pointing out How it was a real dead church. I could say everybody's waiting for Armageddon, right?

21:43

Just waiting. Yeah, so you're not really experiencing the power now other than you got your life together because you're following a moral code

21:50

Mm -hmm. So as long as you follow the moral code then you know, yeah, you're gonna have a good life but until you mess up and and of course your

21:59

Your spiritual life is dependent on Going to meetings knocking on doors reading

22:04

Bible and Watchtower publications Yeah, and like I said the Watchtower publications just it was the same information over and over it was nothing new

22:12

I was learning. I was excited to To to learn anything new because it was just the same old thing

22:19

But yeah, and that's even this subtle like indoctrination like continued indoctrination because you're just like okay to do to do this

22:25

And that's Yeah, so if you're so if I went to like Seattle and saw

22:31

Jehovah's Witnesses up there or if I saw some locally We do we speak at for example at the

22:37

Phoenix City Council We've been doing that consistently when I was there I had to actually speak and on my way there.

22:43

I saw like Jehovah's Witnesses like oh I want to go talk to them But I just knew that if I did you probably get like the same answers and stuff like that so yeah, so jumping back when you so you and your wife came to church and That was obviously different.

22:58

Yeah back into that man. Yeah, I didn't know what to think of I was there for God I felt his presence.

23:04

I felt the burning that I was kind of used to getting in AA meetings You know that conviction from the Holy Spirit that I've been feeling for a long time then the only relief

23:11

I got from that was thinking and learning about Jesus and the gospel the only relief

23:18

So when I was in that church, I was feeling that burning which I was familiar with because I knew I'm convicted, you know

23:24

Amy sitting next to me. She's just closing her eyes and enduring it. She hated it. She absolutely she was like my

23:31

My sins and my works are filthy rags I mean that guy he was over the top and I she goes said she was praying the entire time just to get through it

23:43

Hilarious so we get home and she's telling me how much she hates it and I had an experience because What he said during that talk hit me right and I felt

23:55

I Felt like there's a first time. I've been to church in a long long a long time Mm -hmm. I felt that and it was it was residual.

24:03

Yeah after for days and I'm just like freaking out like Amy How could you not feel that and she was like,

24:09

I'm never going to that to that church again. You can go by yourself I'm just crying.

24:15

I'm like Busted up because it's like your wife my wife. Yeah, and now I believe in hell, right?

24:21

Mmm, that's where she's going and it just killed me. It was like I was crying and so I had a counseling session with Pastor Zach and We prayed about Amy we talked about you know that concern of mine

24:36

Yeah, and I didn't really think anything was gonna come of that. I figured I'm I told

24:42

Amy God wants me to go this church. I'm going you know that God is first in my life. She puts

24:47

God first in her life She's like that's fine, but I'm not going and it was it was a contention for weeks mm -hmm, and I didn't know what to do went and me and Pastor Zach prayed about it and we kind of assessed the situation

25:00

It was you know, it is what it is. You can't force someone to accept Jesus Christ and so I was watching the

25:10

Defecting from Bethel you guys did because I'm watching cultish. Yeah, and she mentioned that she had a

25:20

Huge experience from watching that movie American Gospel. Yeah, and so something clicked in my mind

25:25

God just said hey that movie have Amy watch it and so I'm like, okay and That night.

25:32

I didn't know if she was gonna be into it I'm like, hey, this is really uplifting movie about Christian and you know how the other church has been

25:38

Been subverted by all these people treated, you know with a false gospel. I might be interesting to you She was like, oh, yeah,

25:44

I totally that sounds great So we watched it that night and by the end of the movie I mean she was freaking out during the movie by the end of it.

25:51

She was saved for lack of a better word because She was like, oh my god

25:57

I have to get rid of my Buddhas and I have to get rid of all my Crystals and my fairies and then she's like the next morning.

26:03

I woke up and she's like, do you think we need to? Observe the Sabbath, you know These are all questions.

26:10

I'd already had it earlier and right now she's like spontaneously like wants to read the

26:16

Bible and is looking up all this stuff on the Internet and It's amazing I mean it just gave me chills because I knew it was the same exact thing that I had just experienced

26:24

But now she was experiencing it. Yeah, and she's like I want to go to church. I can't wait to go to church

26:30

And this is gonna be super encouraging man because I've got a lot of close friends who

26:36

Who are out of the New Age who are listening to? This who listen to this podcast now and it just I have so many friends now.

26:46

They have similar testimonies like one of the first examples of how God works in a

26:52

Christian when someone becomes a born -again believer is that they have a sudden conviction to Get rid of all of their idols or anything in relation to the

27:00

New Age. So all of a sudden it's like uncomfortable Yeah, and it's different for every person. Um, I'll be perfectly like honest and transparent

27:07

I would do I would like practice yoga every now and then just like I'll try this out It's just stretching something

27:13

Maybe those people from the New Age are like really hypersensitive about it And maybe we can have an episode where you kind of go more into that But I remember all of a sudden there's this moment where like I like I've just been convicted

27:25

Especially after reading what at least from my perspective what Stephen bankers talked about what it is.

27:31

It's Not a thing you said it's not Stretching that just so happens to have a spiritual practice is actually spiritual practice

27:38

That just so happens to have stretching when you explain that context. It was like, oh wow Yeah, so at least for me like God's worked in me where I just feel convicted to where I can't do that anymore

27:49

But conviction of New Age practices and getting rid of those things is always a huge thing and that's super encouraging man

27:54

But go ahead with what you were saying Well, I mean Jesus is in charge of my works my righteousness everything that I do

28:02

Yeah, it's gonna be in a line with him and I realized that through this whole thing Especially with Amy popping in like that.

28:08

It was like wow, I'm not really in control this. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not It's really a load off that I didn't have to you know

28:14

Get upset about the Buddha on the wall and the I didn't I mean I was sitting there going what am I doing gonna do?

28:20

And I put my foot down to be like that needs to go and that needs to go Yeah, you know all this stuff just suddenly Clay's got

28:25

Jesus and he's making us do all I didn't want to do that Mm -hmm, so I didn't even have to I just put it on God. I said, hey,

28:30

I'm gonna trust you Yeah, and it it literally took care of itself in my in my case. I'm very blessed isn't amazing isn't it amazing though that the culture of the watchtower that you grew up in if The the their steps would be you have to get anything out of your house

28:47

That's opposed to our doctrine and teaching if it hurts rip it out No one forced we didn't tell her anything no

28:55

We were like we had no idea at the time when Lindsay was sitting across the table like where you are now

29:01

That your wife was going to hear American gospel and God was like going to save her

29:06

Yeah and no one said no one called her right away like you need to go get your idols out of your house like that's a

29:12

Work and conviction that like the Holy Spirit brings man. Yeah, that just shows you the difference between Like this is how we answer like the kingdom of the

29:20

Colts is that you have to those systems and those things that happen if you guys are listening to this and you've experienced something similar to Like what you experience?

29:31

I mean Jeff said once in our previous episode that like you need first of all, you need to know that wasn't God to begin with and Everything that you're doing now is because of the fact that you're born again and you like you have a changed heart

29:45

That you love Jesus like the real Jesus Christ the eternal

29:50

God not Michael the Archangel or any of that stuff. So but like you it's all big

29:57

It's all from like a transformed heart. We're like, yeah, it blows me away. I did not Try to become a

30:03

Baptist. I never thought I would I mean, I didn't even know what I was getting into I was just following God because I learned how to trust in God in AA.

30:11

I mean every morning I wake up I will be done. Yeah, every situation I hit that I get scared.

30:17

I pause and say that I will be done. Yeah, and so That I will be done

30:23

Yeah, and the regeneration all the stuff you guys told me these concepts after the fact. Mm -hmm

30:29

And I had experience in my life To match it up to you're like, oh, that's what that is.

30:34

That's why yeah feeling this way Yeah, and then for Amy to for the same thing to happen to her in front of my eyes

30:40

And you know, I hope to see it happen a lot more with all the rest of my family Yeah, but you never know and you know, it's up to God Yeah, he chooses but I I'm looking forward to the rest of my life seeing this happen because I'm never gonna show up about this

30:53

You know for the rest of my life Yeah, it's changed me fundamentally from every way I and thing

30:59

I was doing before and I've heard that numerous times I love hearing about it because I understand it. Yeah, I have my own experience now

31:06

With my wife. Mm -hmm. Yeah, man, I think Especially the one verse that just came to mind is talking about like performance versus, you know doing and having to work versus Having to believe it versus knowing

31:23

Christ is Romans 4 and When he talks about like Abraham like was

31:29

Abraham justified justified by works and it talks about how Abraham believed You know in God has created him for righteousness

31:35

But I love the passage where it said the part in the Romans 4 where it says now to the one who works

31:41

That favor is not credited him as a favor, but that which is due But the one who does not work

31:47

But believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is credited him as righteousness

31:53

Yeah, so that's like the beauty of like the true gospel is that it's the righteousness of God that comes through faith so like when when

32:02

God saved you and he and he gave you new heart is that you responded in faith and Like Bible says even the response of faith is a gift that God gives you and that happened and like God changed your heart

32:16

And then the righteousness of Christ like gets imputed to your account

32:21

So when you and your wife you stand before God God is not looking at you and your past and all this

32:28

Spiritual woo -woo stuff that you were involved in and and all those times when you were at your worst

32:34

You know like in a in a bottom in a corner with like an empty bottle of whatever it was

32:39

Like none of that stuff. No, it's Jesus He sees

32:45

Jesus and his righteousness and this essentially think about when when God says This is my son in whom

32:52

I am well pleased Like so many times too and you're gonna mean it's like you're you have this moment where like you're joyful you're a brand -new

33:00

Christian your wife is like there's gonna be times where it's gonna be Difficult and you're gonna you still have that old self and that old identity

33:06

You know that you're gonna have to like jaw toggle between the two Yeah But like you need to realize too is that in the same way that God said this is my son in whom

33:15

I'm well pleased That that's what God sees in you because of him now

33:21

So it's not about What you can do, but it's about believing in Jesus and what he's done

33:27

And I think that's just a good thing to you know, focus in and grow on that man So this is just this is super encouraging.

33:34

Yeah, it's been mind -blowing. It's it is mind -blowing. I shouldn't be here Yeah, any you know, it was not my will that brought me here.

33:42

It was just my desperation Yeah of You know, I would not have a future on this planet or very much longer at the rate.

33:51

I was going. Yeah Because as soon as I lost Amy and I would have At the rate

33:57

I was going I would have there would have been nothing really left for me to live for Yeah, because Amy I found my soulmate, you know the person that I want to be with the rest of my life

34:06

So it would have been it would have been tragic God didn't have that plan for me and I really do believe in the elect and the predestination

34:14

Because that's what just makes sense to me. Why else would I have experienced that grace? Blessings to get to here if he didn't have a plan for me from the start

34:24

Yeah, you can't make sense of suffering at all without that. Yeah, other than the suffering

34:31

You know caused me to grow spiritually, right? Which is how it works. Yeah, so I want to just Right, I mean there's so much more that we can go into and we could definitely have you on again

34:42

Maybe we next time we can get into like a lot of the theology and what are good points because I think with any cult

34:48

Who there's good things to talk about and sometimes things that could be? Distractions if you want to really talk to them about Jesus, there's a lot of things you could bring up, right?

34:57

and I unfortunately, you know, I have seen a lot of behavior from people who are ex -Jehovah's

35:03

Witnesses who are Angry and bitter at the organization and but then they take it out on that person who is like standing at the corner and They're just as much a victim of the

35:15

Watchtower Bible and tract society as as as they were And so I think it's a you know,

35:20

I don't yeah. Yeah, I won't attack other Jehovah's Witnesses I've seen that happen, but I yeah,

35:26

I do not want to do that. I just know there are good people Yeah, and Jehovah's Witness in my opinion attracts a certain kind of person who really does care

35:35

Yeah, and who really does want the truth. Mm -hmm and wants to look up, you know

35:40

Strong's concordance and see what the Hebrew and the Greek is. I mean, yeah people like that. Mm -hmm in there apologetics,

35:46

I guess yeah, and You know you think you have it So you don't really look into it any more than that and you stay focused on that and you spend your whole life

35:55

I mean, that's what my mom and dad are still doing, you know, my mom and dad my brother And his wife are all still

36:01

Jehovah's Witnesses and and they think it's great. Yeah So let's just do this.

36:07

We're kind of around like the wrap -up point, but One of the aspects of cultish and what we really want to do as we grow in scale

36:15

It's not just towards the active kingdom of the cults, but it's ex -cultists obviously, we're talking to someone like yourself who is one, but there are so many people who leave the cults and They just have lost all hope right

36:32

If you could just but to wrap things up if you could just summarize if there's someone watching I know there's gonna be who watch this who are an ex

36:38

Jehovah's Witnesses or they're just Coming if someone's been the watchtower and they've just been spit out the other end and they're it

36:44

You know, you know what? It's like to be there if you could just maybe share from your heart what would you say to them right now knowing though the hope that you have and and just Knowing at least you have this ability to emphasize with them right now fully give up just give it up surrender and just know that you don't know anything and when

37:07

I humbly went to God crushed and said, please show me the way then he did hmm and he is true to his promise and I don't know.

37:21

It's such a it's a it's a journey. It's a process I don't think God grants you, you know a million dollars or some kind of emotional

37:31

Goal post. Yeah, it's like it's a process, you know, if he's gonna bless you with abundance or The freedom you have to understand how and why for your own self?

37:41

Yeah, you know, so I would just ask God to start that process for you and know that it's gonna happen

37:48

But if you're hopeless then you just have to be hopeless I still think God's gonna help you yeah I Wasn't I didn't do anything?

37:58

Extraordinary God's help. He just was there for me and I guess in the darkest times

38:03

I thought he wasn't there but hindsight I realized he was so just know that even though you feel like God isn't there

38:09

He is yeah, and it's not an accent if you're watching. This is not an accident that you're watching That's true podcast and all things work together for good and in a sense

38:18

With everything that you've been to like God's been able to work it for your good because here you are talking To someone and hopefully this will reach someone who who definitely needs to hear it and I just want to reemphasize with if someone is listening and you have

38:32

Come out of the watchtower and you've experienced the pain of disfellowship And you've just trying to make sense of just being out the other end

38:40

I just want to reiterate what what Jeff said when we did the episode Initially with on the

38:47

Jehovah's Witnesses that you realize that wasn't God to begin with. Yeah and I would just encourage you to Get grab a

38:56

Bible wherever it's at. I a good Bible. Not the not the New World Translation But just just find something

39:05

NASB or NIV YouTube videos this type of stuff that we're doing right now played a huge part with me, too yeah, but but honestly like you need to just Get like the

39:15

God is real with God the Bible is real He's the Bible. He says like he's not far from each one of us and if you read through the

39:26

Gospel of John and Just pray sincerely to God ask him to reveal yours

39:32

Ask him to reveal yourself For him to reveal yourself to him and that's you at you pray that kind of a prayer.

39:38

That's the prayer that God answers And I and all three of us here and you're here especially that can testify of that I just bought my my first Bible Well, I'd like a couple weeks ago.

39:51

Yeah, it was such a great feeling To have this book back in my life and to have

39:58

Christian brothers and sisters back in my life because I missed yeah I missed it. That's what I did for, you know, three years of my life mm -hmm, and It's just so nice to have it back but in a real sense now yeah, and also with just the way

40:11

God has blessed me and lifted me up and His grace has been So prolific in my life that it's it's unbelievable and I just want everybody to know that.

40:22

Yeah This is so awesome Andrew. Did you you're just sitting here soaking this in? Any last thing you want to say before you wrap up here?

40:30

There's freedom in Christ and it's the Christ of Scripture it's not a Created being it's the eternal

40:36

God who created all of us as beings. We are created to worship not an organization

40:42

Not a thought or a philosophy But to worship the God who created us and you don't have freedom and there is no freedom unless you worship that God and here

40:50

The only way we know about him is by his revealed word and that's in Scripture Yeah, and he commands us to worship him.

40:56

Anything else is nothing but filthy rags. No way to just worship ourselves So we need to bow down and yeah humbly worship

41:04

Christ and I just wish that people could have seen I wish we had a video of me from probably Six seven months ago.

41:10

Just the anxiety I had the fear. I was ruled by fear just a fear ball and It's very it's supernatural that I don't have that anymore.

41:19

I wonder where my hair went I wonder where my anxiety went because I just don't have it anymore. It's kind of weird.

41:24

I noticed it's gone a lot Well, the Bible says in 1st John it says perfect love cast out fear for the one who fears has not been perfected in love

41:32

Never believe that stuff, but it's real. It's not just a phrase not just a affirmation on the wall

41:38

I mean I used affirmations for years trying to yeah, you know, I am this and I am trying to convince yourself

41:44

I'm trying to convince yourself. Yeah and brainwashing myself. I figured I would rebrainwash. There's only one I am.

41:50

Yeah Yeah I listen to the power of now on audio cassette like a thousand times probably that and the teachings of Abraham which are channeled

41:57

Information trying to brainwash myself with this stuff and it never gave me any relief Yeah, like and I went to great lengths hours because I had a job that I had to drive a long way

42:06

So I'd listen two hours there and two hours back. Mm -hmm four hours a day. I'd listen to this. Yeah, and in a matter of weeks with this,

42:14

I mean I am free as can be and and And life just keeps getting better relationships get better Everything.

42:22

It's awesome. Yeah, he's gone. All right. Well, this has been the second part of this great conversation slash discussion

42:30

I if you guys really enjoyed this episode, this is Will not be the last time the first the second of many many times

42:38

We discussed from multiple different angles the all the ins and outs of the Watchtower Bible and tract Society Aka Jehovah's Witnesses If you guys enjoyed this series in this interview episode, what do you want to call it?

42:51

And we're never you do end up calling it go ahead Leave us a review on iTunes either leave us a great review or leave us a one -star review last

42:58

Yeah, put us on blast and we'll we will listen to it and read it and go from there again

43:05

We will talk to you guys next time on cultish. We had a great time today and we'll talk to you guys next time