Cultish: Jehovah's Witnesses Part 2

New Age Spirituality After Leaving the Watchtower

Alright, welcome back everyone to part two of this conversation slash interview. We are here. This is cultish entering the kingdom the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts and one of the co-hosts here.

I am with Andrew super sleuths on current the super sleuth of the show. How'd you like that first part of this conversation man? It was wild.

I was loving the conversation and I can't wait to hear what's next. I think everyone's going to be really interested in. Enthralled by this story. So clay you have a wonderful story and I can't I cannot wait to hear more.

Okay.

So when we just to recap you were talking in the last episode about You had left the watchtower and you if you guys haven't heard that definitely check out the first part of this Conversation and in the process of just trying to make sense of where think of how things happened.

You got into a lot of different New Age spirituality just getting to all different forms of like meditation yogi. Look at going after yoga gurus doing like different kundalini yoga stuff like that. Just jump back into like a lot more of that whole process of where you were and what you're trying to jump into.

Yeah, well, you know after I left the religion I felt very lost and I had a light experience and I don't know exactly what it was I just felt buzzing. I saw a light Come down. I was in a dark room by myself and I Just had a presence come With me and I you know in my spiritual condition that I had been told I was in from my religion.

There was no way that I could view that presence or that You know experience as God. Yeah to me I felt like I had been possessed by demons because that's what they pretty much promised me what happened if I had left the religion and so You know hindsight being 2020 all these years later I do realize that that was God because after that I was changed and I was seeking God and spirituality like I had never saw before and I couldn't go to Christianity at that time.

There's no way it was gonna happen. Okay, I've been ruined on Christianity. So that's why I went into the all the New Age Stuff I didn't feel any fear I had prayed to God and said, you know I'm afraid of all this stuff and I felt like I had gotten the answer that there wasn't anything off-limits that I was allowed to check into anything that I needed to Mm-hmm, and so I did without fear of any of it and you know grace of God I did did go through that unscathed the other day.

I think he did protect me and I think he was just Letting me exhaust every thing I could. Because in the end, you know it all focused on Jesus in the end and I you know I don't even know how that really happened.

But but that's what did happen. Yeah, I mean, well one of the things too.

Is that you know, we definitely know. Jesus says in John 6 44 No one comes unto me unless the Father draws him right and I'll raise him up on the last day. And I would say without question I mean all this mean there's every single person has a different story in which they came to faith like in Christ.

We all have the same gospel. We all have the same Jesus as Christians, but how we come about to knowing him and we have very different backgrounds. I mean, we all have a different background from you and vice versa and all the same.

But um, but yeah, I mean I definitely too would say to that God would definitely be protecting you especially giving the spiritual danger. Yeah of a lot of those practices and just and also I mean just I mean the fact that I would just think to the fact that the watchtower said that you would Demons would be going after you if you did leave and you were actually dealing with spiritual practices that.

Really a lot of those experiences are invoked with demonic and satanic power, right for sure. But just go ahead just continue with your journey where you're at man.

Addiction, Anxiety, and the Search for Help

Well.

Nothing really helped. I mean I was in bad shape by anxiety wise PTSD from all of this Anger and I was still drinking and nothing was helping that I couldn't really stop that I was maintaining it trying to moderate it, you know trying to keep it at bay, but it was always something that took me over and.

And.

So I kind of came to the end of my rope With all of that and I gave up on a lot of the New Age Stuff, even though I left Hot Springs and moved to Portland. And met my soon-to-be wife Amy and she was really into the New Age stuff.

And so we kind of like matched in that way. We both did yoga together. Yeah, she was like she would always call on the fairies. Uh-huh as kind of her divinity and she had been through rehab and and actually was at 22 years sober.

So her God of understanding, you know in rehab, they let you have a guy on understanding was fairies for her. And I mean, I was like, okay, you know, whatever. And of course, you know, I knew what fairies were from growing up Jehovah's Witnesses.

They were fallen angels. So I was like, you know, but whatever I don't not here to judge and I don't you know, I didn't really care. You know what what her? Version of it was I knew mine wasn't you know mine.

I didn't really know what what God was at that point, but.

I.

Was having a harder time with PTSD and the anger at that point and Nothing was helping like I was said and I really loved Amy and I didn't want to run this relationship so she kept saying a a was something that she had done that had really helped her and she talked about it for Three years straight.

Mm-hmm. And so at one of the points where I had had an episode with alcohol and I had done something stupid and really Made a fool of myself. I told her you know what i'm gonna go to a I promise I will and of course I didn't right away.

I just made the promise but I felt bad about that later because Our relationship was getting worse. And so I said, you know, i've got to fulfill that that promise. I made you to go to a. And so I decided to go and I was really desperate at that point.

My anger and anxiety and everything was over the top and I couldn't really control it at all and I didn't know what to do and I knew that was the symptoms of you know, alcoholism the alcoholic mind that they talk about in a a and So I started going I got a sponsor and I started working through the steps of a a.

And I noticed I mean first of all, they tell you to believe in god the god of your choice. And for me that was pretty easy. I went back. I couldn't really deal with jehovah, you know. They really want to use that there's some baggage there.

Yeah, there was some baggage with the name jehovah and So I just started Using the tool that had gotten, you know, god had used the internet for me to research Jehovah's witnesses and get out of that.

So I used the same thing that god had shown me things over the years on the internet and I just started looking up christian youtube videos.

Hmm.

And because I wanted to learn and I remember one of the first ones was bible block fox, which I think he was a Seventh-day adventist. Okay, and you know, I I was like eating it up like all of a sudden the bible and christianity and all that was making more sense and.

The big book of aa is actually based on the gospel and chapter five in the big book is based on the book of james. Okay, and so as I was going through the steps I got to step four and that's I'm admitting all of your Sins or the things that you've done wrong the things that hurt your conscience to someone else writing them all down you take inventory.

And you just it's a methodical process of really breaking down all of your sins all the things that you've done. That have made you feel bad about yourself. And so going through that process I got convicted by the holy spirit.

I didn't know what it was at the time. But I just felt smashed. And I felt like I was being burned. Every time. I mean I went to two three aa meetings a day. Um because of my anxiety and anger was going crazy.

I couldn't control myself. So sometimes I would have to go to three meetings a day just to be calm. Yeah, but at least one.

You're looking for an answer. Yeah from them, but but it's not an answer that they can necessarily provide. So you're having to go multiple multiple times.

Oh, yeah.

And you and basically there was a power that everybody feels like is in those meetings to keep you calm. And there was there was A power there. We would say the lord's prayer at the end of every meeting.

Um.

We would open with a serenity prayer. What's that was there?

Meetings, Discipline, and the Pull Toward Christianity

With talking about like now you being an aa and trying to like Go to these meetings. Did you feel like in hindsight? Maybe there's a similarity between your time at the watchtower. You're having to go to meetings after meeting after meeting.

Yeah, and here I am out of the watchtower, but i'm vicariously like living The same life. I'm like reliving my past life now as a so there's an aspect where I is. I would think like i'm trying to put myself in your shoes like.

Yeah, there's a familiar discipline. Yeah, there's this you're trying to do the performance. Yeah to Deal with that instead of doing instead of looking at the heart or looking at the one who can change your heart.

But go ahead.

I mean they were amazed at how many meetings I just went to right off the bat because they didn't question and I already had. That discipline from years of going to meetings.

And.

It wasn't even a big deal for me and they're like wow you're making a lot of meetings and so those meetings were. We're having an effect and god was using aa to get through to me. And um, so yeah, I was watching those videos on youtube and I came across apologia, uh, the one from bible block fox and Um, there was another one.

Um school for profits, okay, and Apology was the one that stood out the most to me because he was um, You know preaching the gospel to jehovah's witnesses. So that really helped me watch someone preach to a jehovah's witness because I had a lot of doctrines in my head that were all goofy You know as compared to the real gospel and it was helping me straighten them out.

Yeah, god, just so you know the very I think the very first video if you guys are watching this on youtube. If you go to like the very first video ever that I think that we uploaded is that it's a conversation that jeff pastor jeff had and I think pastor luke was part of that discussion, but they It wasn't even a video.

They just put down a recorder. In a park and you can hear planes flying over. And they're just talking to them and that just really like blew up and that's how like the youtube channel. Changed I think back then it was like called defend the faith.

Like whatever youtube channel is called now, it's obviously apology studios. But yeah, um, so you saw us interaction engaging with the watchtower and go from there.

The Trinity, a Real Church, and the Need for Regeneration

Well the gospel, um, the true gospel of jesus christ started becoming more and more apparent. Um, I spontaneously started believing in the trinity which was strange for me because as a jehovah's witness You do not believe in the trinity.

I mean I had refuted trinitarians numerous times and one of the fun things was to watch.

Uh.

Dr. James white debate. The uh, nathan stanley, I believe it was jehovah's witness on the trinity. I hate that. And I was just like wow, how can you not believe in the trinity? And then I watched you know.

Me as an ex-jehovah's witness sitting there because I said all the same things he said. You know to people who believed in the trinity. So it was a real flip for me to watch those videos but to be on the opposite side now.

Wow. Yeah from A supernatural way because I didn't um, I wasn't trying to believe in the trinity for anybody. This was just something I privately went through on my own all of a sudden the trinity made perfect sense to me.

And I knew it was the truth. And a lot of other things like I knew I needed a church I knew I needed to hang out with um, I almost said jehovah's witnesses, but I needed to hang out with Christians, right?

Yeah, because you know when you try to hang out with people who aren't into this it's awful. Yeah, you know nails on a chalkboard kind of feeling so. Um in a I was making more and more spiritual progress.

They were noticing I was kind of getting notoriety. They wanted me to chair a couple of meetings, which I still do to this day over the society group and Yeah, I just started making all this progress changes were happening to me.

This was all regeneration, you know stuff that I learned about when I started coming to church. But the the videos the youtube videos I started watching. Uh, dr. James white. Uh, jeff durbin more than any other One and I was like, I love jeff.

He's awesome. And I love james white. They're just telling the truth and then I looked up. Where apology a church was? And I just moved to phoenix a year ago, so I didn't really know the area and uh apology.

A church was 15 minutes away. Wow. So I really felt like god was saying. Hey, here's your church and I Really needed a church to be real. I needed it to show the love of christ. Yeah, like there's a lot of things.

It's funny. The jehovah's witnesses have a list that shows what the true religion would be. You know love of christ all these things which they don't really follow or they don't uh. Hit those marks on there, but apology it does in my opinion and I was really searching for something that was telling the truth.

Was evangelizing because you know, the jehovah's witnesses do preach that you need to evangelize and they're right.

Mm-hmm. I always knew that's one thing man. Is that that would what I. Whenever i've talked to jehovah's witnesses, I have to give them credit. Where credits do like you guys practice what you preach and you're doing what christians should be doing.

And a lot of times like they. They put us to shame as far as like their passion and their ability to yeah to you know at least work for what they believe in. I think walter martin said that they. At least at the time when he was initially when he was alive and doing his ministry that they produce more Literature than all the christian denominations at his time like combined.

Yeah, so you have to at least give him credit for that.

Yeah, well, I think anytime you have a cult you have to have truth In it in order for it to get people hooked because and then you know. You can intersperse the other stuff that you want in but you have to have some kind of core of truth.

Which their moral code is one of the strongest. I mean, you can't be a jehovah's witness and smoke cigarettes. You can't be a fornicator. You can't you know any of these things. You'll get kicked out and um.

So they're very strong strict about the moral code and evangelizing, you know. So those are the things that do Have an effect they do have a power In the of themselves on people's lives that people can point at and go.

Look Jehovah's witnesses had this effect on me because there is enough truth in there. I think to have a power of its own.

Church, Authority, and Trust After Spiritual Abuse

Wow.

Right. Yeah, I think um another thing I just appreciate is that um, You talk about like the desire and like and the need to get in church and um, it's it's really important too because there are A lot of people who come out of these like spiritually abusive systems.

Um.

And even people who become christians and who legitimately love jesus and come to christ. But there's this i've seen this hesitancy. To get into church. There is an aspect where okay, you're a christian now and you need to take responsibility.

And do what god says which you know. There's an aspect where it's like you need to be part of a local body. And he says don't forsake the gathering of like god's people and there's important Role of like the pastors and shepherds, you know who are called to like to be the guardian over your soul in a sense I mean at least from a shepherd's point.

I mean the ultimate guardian of our soul is jesus. But there I think there's just a lot of baggage a lot of times people will have almost sort of you know. They want to go to regular church, but there's just so much association with the past like oh.

A pastor who's like an authority over me. That's a good and biblical thing but Authority that you've when you're dealing with a bad authority your whole life or distorted authority.

There's baggage that comes with that. Yeah, once your trust is broken in that structure. Mm-hmm. It's really hard to ever want it again or to be able to trust it. Yeah again, but what's cool about this time for me is i'm not trusting a human being.

I'm not trusting a human church. I'm trusting god. Yeah, it sent me here. And if things are messed up, I mean one of the things they say in aa which is kind of funny. But principles before personalities.

Yeah, you know, so god's principles are what we're here for the personalities I mean you have all kinds in any group. Yeah, but yeah, it was really hard To trust and I never thought I would want to go to a church again.

I really did and I had no desire to be a christian. I had no desire to be Um in a church situation or to be accountable. But one of the things you learn in aa is that you really need to be accountable to somebody.

Yeah, you have to be it's part of worship. So, uh, amen. Yeah, and I've you know in watching Jeff's a lot of his stuff. He was talking about the need for a church. He mentions that at the end of I think is this week.

Uh segment a lot of times he mentions it a lot and I was thinking yeah, I need that. So when I saw that it was 15 minutes away, I thought well god's sending me here, but I still didn't go. I don't think I went.

Probably for two months after I realized it was 15 minutes away. Because I was scared to and I also felt like, you know, i'm new to this aa thing. I'm kind of like over the top right now because i'm happy to be sober and finally not drinking or even thinking about it you know and uh.

They they tell you to calm down, you know, don't go too crazy when you first get into aa. So I thought I was just like kind of freaking out. A little bit with the god thing even amy was like downplaying it like, you know.

Just if you want to go to church, that's fine. We'll find one. And I didn't think much of it.

But.

The.

Like the effect that the energy or whatever it is. It was having the regeneration it was having on me. I was studying the bible more and more reading more and more watching more and more videos. So it was becoming that effect was becoming more strong on me that I needed to get to church.

So finally I get. The day where I decide i'm gonna go. Uh, and um I've been telling amy this whole time. Hey, you know god's direct me towards this church. It's gonna be great and I get her to go with me and we go and and uh.

It was a different experience because i've never been to a baptist church. I've never been to you know, I never. Like I said, we don't believe in trinity. We didn't believe in hell.

Uh.

The whole concept of the way the gospel is that you're a sinner, you know your works mean nothing. Yeah, your works are dirty rags that yeah.

Okay. So I I mean I want to ask you this real quick now. That was offensive. Yeah, so I want to.

What?

Um.

No, like what. What's the experience like going to a kingdom hall when it like musical wise like well, I would say.

Comparatively, it's really dead. Okay. The music is canned. Uh, it's a recording usually it was cassette. I did sound for years. So it was a cassette I would pop in and cue up the Piano music. It was like a cassette of piano music.

Oh, wow.

What do they sing like armageddon is coming and we're all gonna die or like one was uh, we're jehovah's witnesses.

We speak out fearlessly or something like that. Oh, that was one of them. I have a lot of them. Yeah, there were a lot of military march type songs. Yeah. Wow. I remember those. Yeah. Um, I have a few memorized, uh, there was one.

So nothing like so there's so a classic hymn like come like more. No, they made them all up. So so anything anything that's like from the heart or emotion like one of my favorite ones is prone to wander lord I feel it.

Yeah prone to leave the god. I love take my heart lord lord and steal it steal it for thy courts above.

Yeah, if we got nothing like we got caught listening to any kind of other christian music besides ours. It was apostasy. Wow.

Oh, yeah, I would bet but there's nothing but as far as like any of the of the jw songs, there's nothing. There wouldn't be anything like that that like comes from the heart of like that sort of emotive.

No, it was all like look at our works. This is what we do. Look at what we do.

Wow something else we do. Okay, so back. So you're going to church and like so you've got all this. Go ahead because I want I want to hear like.

How well a meeting yeah a meeting is uh, you know. The kids are are in it kind of like apologia does. Yeah because they believe there shouldn't be a sunday school. Everybody learns together. Interesting.

Um, yeah, and the uh I mean sunday would be a public talk, you know a discourse like jeff gives and then after a Watchtower study from the publication of the watchtower and you know, you'd read scriptures.

Everybody was required to. Or expect it I should say to study. Yeah, so, you know, you'd always want your watchtower marked up with notes and everything for everybody to see it. Not your bible. Otherwise, it was embarrassing.

You wouldn't want to open your mind. You hold it like this.

Well, it's kind of it's kind of people make fun of like even like christians now like an there's a joke like christian girls on instagram where like they got to get the perfect filter and like get the coffee and like.

They got to get the one page that has all the different color. It's got to be at least four or five different highlights not two. But if you do like four or five then you're like ultra spiritual. And I got to get the right angle get the right filter and there was a lot of that hashtag.

Quiet time.

Every.

Every year twice a year. We got a uh visit from what was called a circuit overseer and he was like a higher up guy and everybody would it would always make me so mad because everybody would put on extra Like niceness like the the guy who was the jerk in the hall would suddenly be nice yeah, you know people would go out and buy new suits and get new haircuts and you know all this new stuff would come out and everybody would put on this big show for the guy and I really like was rolling my eyes at that like this is just super critical, you know.

It's like this guy's just another guy. But yeah, it was a lot of a lot of show. Um, you know, you'd want your comments to sound good. You want to sound. But you know, that's just the nature of works to me.

You know looking in at hindsight, but it's real dead in that way. I remember my sister Was uh coming to the meetings with me after she got this fellowship when I was trying to go back and she was just pointing Out how it was a real dead church.

I could say everybody's waiting for armageddon, right? Just waiting. Yeah. So you're not really experiencing the power now other than you got your life together because you're following a moral code. So as long as you follow the moral code then, you know, yeah, you're gonna have a good life but until you mess up and and of course your Your spiritual life is dependent on Going to meetings knocking on doors reading the bible and the watchtower publications.

So and like I said the watchtower publications just it was the same information over and over it was nothing new I was learning. I wasn't excited to To uh to learn anything new because it was just the same old thing.

But yeah, and that's even a subtle like indoctrination like continued indoctrination because you're just like, okay. This is how you do and that's there is an expectation. Yeah. So if you so if I went to like seattle and saw jehovah's witnesses up there.

Or if I saw some locally. We do we speak at for example at the phoenix city council. We've been doing that consistently. When I was there I had to actually speak and on my way there. I saw like jehovah's witnesses like oh I want to go talk to them.

But I just knew that if I did you probably get like the same answers and stuff like that. Um, so yeah, so jumping back when you so you and your wife came to church and. That was obviously different. Yeah, jump back into that man.

Conviction, American Gospel, and Amy’s Conversion

Yeah, I didn't know what to think. I was there for god.

I felt his presence. I felt the burning that I was kind of used to getting in aa meetings. You know that kind of conviction from the holy spirit that i've been feeling for a long time. The only relief I got from that was thinking and learning about jesus and the gospel the only relief that I got.

So when I was in that church, I was feeling that burning which I was familiar with because I knew i'm convicted, you know, and I Amy sitting next to me. She's just closing her eyes and enduring it. She hated it.

She absolutely she was like my. My sins and my works are filthy rags. I mean that guy he was over the top and I. She goes said she was praying the entire time just to get through it. That was hilarious.

So we get home and she's telling me how much she hates it and I had an experience because. What he said during that talk hit me, right and I felt I felt like it was the first time i've been to church in a long long long time.

I felt that and it was it was residual. Yeah after for days. And i'm just like freaking out like amy. How could you not feel that. And she was like i'm never going to the act of that church again.

You can go by yourself. I felt something but it wasn't what you felt.

And i'm just crying i'm like Busted up because it's like it's your wife my wife. Yeah, and now I believe in hell.

Right.

That's where she's going and it just it killed me it was like I I was crying and so I had a uh Counseling session with pastor zach and uh, we prayed about amy and we talked about you know that concern of mine.

Yeah, and um, I didn't really think anything was gonna come of that. I figured i'm I told amy Hey, god wants me to go to this church. I'm going you know that god is first in my life. She puts god first in her life.

She's like that's fine, but i'm not going and it was it was a contention for weeks.

Hmm.

And I didn't know what to do went and uh me and pastor zach Parade about it and we kind of assessed the situation and it was. You know, it is what it is. You can't force someone to accept jesus christ.

And.

So I was watching the uh Defecting from bethel that you guys did because i'm watching cultish. Yeah, and she mentioned that.

She.

Had.

A huge experience from watching that movie american gospel. Yeah. And so something clicked in my mind. God just said hey That movie have amy watch it and so i'm like, okay. And uh that night I didn't know if she was going to be into it.

I'm like, hi, this is really uplifting movie about christian and you know how the how the church has been Been subverted by all these people treated, you know with a false gospel. I might be interesting to you.

She was like, oh, yeah, totally that sounds great. So we watched it that night and by the end of the movie I mean she was freaking out during the movie by the end of it. She was saved for lack of a better word because she was like Oh my god I have to get rid of my buddhas and I have to get rid of all my crystals and my fairies and then she's like The next morning I woke up and she's like do you think we need to uh, Observe the sabbath, you know all these questions.

These are all questions. I had already had and I had already looked up earlier and right now. She's like spontaneously like wants to read the bible and is looking up all this stuff on the internet. And it's amazing.

I mean it just gave me chills because I knew it was the same exact thing that I had just experienced. But now she was experiencing it. Yeah, and she's like I want to go to church. I can't wait to go to church.

And this is gonna be super encouraging man, because I've got a lot of close friends who.

Regeneration, Imputed Righteousness, and the Electing Grace of God

Um.

Who are out of the new age who are listening to? This who listen to this podcast now and it just I have so many friends now they have similar testimonies like one of the first Examples of how god works in a christian when someone becomes a born-again believer is that they have a sudden conviction.

To get rid of all of their idols or anything in relation to the new age. It's all of a sudden. It's like uncomfortable. Yeah, and it's different for every person. Um, i'll be perfectly like honest and transparent I would do I would like practice yoga every now and then just like i'll try this out.

It's just stretching some people maybe those people from the new age are like really hypersensitive about it. And maybe we can have an episode where you kind of go more into that but I remember all of a sudden there's this moment where like I like i've just been convicted especially after reading what at least from my perspective what steven bankers talked about what it is.

It's.

Not a uh, I think you said it's not Stretching that just so happens to have a spiritual practice. It's actually a spiritual practice. That just so happens to have stretching when you explain that context.

It was like, oh wow. Yeah, so at least for me like god's worked in me where I just feel convicted to. Where? I can't do that anymore but conviction of new age practices and getting rid of those things is always a huge thing and that's super encouraging.

Man, but go ahead with what you were saying.

Well, I mean jesus is in charge of my works my righteousness everything that I do. Yeah, it's going to be in a line with him and I realized that through this whole thing. Especially with amy popping in like that.

It was like wow. I'm not really in control of this. Yeah, i'm glad I'm, not it's really a load off that I didn't have to you know. Get upset about the buddha on the wall and the I didn't I mean I was sitting there going.

What am I doing gonna do and put my foot down and be like that needs to go and that needs to go. Yes, you know all this stuff. Just suddenly clay's got jesus and he's making us do all I didn't want to do that.

So I didn't even have to. I just put it on god. I said hey i'm gonna trust you and it.

It literally took care of itself in my in my case. I'm very blessed. Isn't it amazing? Isn't it amazing though that the culture of the watchtower that you grew up in.

If.

The the their steps would be you have to get anything out of your house. That's opposed to our doctrine and teaching even if it hurts rip it out. No one forced. We didn't tell her anything. No, um. We were like we had no idea at the time when lindsay was sitting across the table like where you are now.

That your wife was going to hear american gospel and god was like going to save her. Yeah, and no one said no one called her right away. Like you need to go get your idols out of your house. Like that's a work and conviction that like the holy spirit brings man.