November 4, 2025 Show with William Shishko and Christian McShaffrey on “Utilizing the Brilliance of the Late Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of November 2025.

Introducing Dr. Greg L. Bonson and the Guests

I'm absolutely thrilled to have two returning guests today to address the life and legacy of a very important brother in Christ, now in eternity with Christ, by the name of Dr. Greg L. Bonson. Have you yourself been blessed by the teaching and the writing of Dr. Greg L. Bonson, who went home to be with the Lord in 1995?

Have you ever even heard of Greg L. Bonson? And if you have not, that is certainly a shame, and we hope to educate you on this great man of history, one of the greatest minds in the Christian church of the 20th century.

And we are going to be now introducing to you the two men who are going to set out to accomplish that task of educating you on this great brother of Christ now in heaven. First of all, I want to welcome back to the program one of my dearest friends who will certainly be no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience.

He has been a guest on my program frequently, going as far back as the launching of this program in 2005 out of WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island, and has been continuing to be my guest on occasion now that we have relocated and broadcasting out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania since 2015.

First, let me introduce you to Bill Shishko, the founding pastor of The Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comac, Long Island, and he's an advisor to the Bonson Institute. Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Bill Shishko.

Hey, Chris, good to be back with you.

If you could briefly describe The Haven in Comac, Long Island.

Well, I'll do. Well, Comac is in the northwestern pocket of Suffolk County, which is the easternmost of the two counties on Long Island. We began as a mission church back in 2019, and then about three years ago, we were able to purchase a facility at 16 Oaklawn Drive in Comac, and we're in the early stages still as a mission church, but we are really doing all that we can to see the kingdom of God furthered on in Suffolk County and have a wonderful time doing it.

We'd love to have you join us.

Yes, and I have loved visiting The Haven myself and was so blessed on how well you pull off having a liturgical worship service that is in no way, shape, or form robotic or wooden. It was just such a joy to see a liturgical service done with such passion and warmth and joy.

Well, all churches have liturgies, my dear brother Chris.

Yes, I know that.

They're biblical ones, and are they alive or are they cadavers?

And if anybody would like to find out more about The Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island, go to thehavenli .com, thehavenli .com. And now we also have another returning guest today.

His name is Christian McShaffery, and he has not, believe it or not, he's not been on the program since 2020, and he was previously on the program when we had a five-day tribute to Greg L. Bonson. And I'm thrilled to have back on the program after such a long absence, Christian McShaffery, who is pastor of Five Solas Church, an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

And he is also the vice chairman of the Bonson Institute and the clerk of the Presbytery of Minnesota and Wisconsin for the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to the program as well, Christian McShaffery.

The honor is all mine. Thanks for inviting me back, Chris.

And why don't you briefly describe Five Solas Church of Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

Sure. Five Solas Church began as a church plant in 1999, and I came here as the founding pastor and church planter in 2003 after graduating from Mid-America Reformed Seminary. The church then organized in 2007 with our first elders, and we bought our first building in 2019, and we just paid it off earlier this year.

So we're glad and blessed to be debt-free to the glory of God. The building, interestingly enough, was a Jehovah's Witness Hall that was newly built in 2011, and it's very classy, clean, well-built on a little bit of property just on the outskirts of town.

We, too, have a liturgy, and I think it's also not robotic. So Bill and I have that in common.

Well, praise God. And we would like you to, those of you listening in the audience, we'd like you to know that the website for Five Solas Church, if you'd like to investigate that church, especially if you live in or near Reedsburg, Wisconsin, or have family, friends, and loved ones in that area, or if you're just passing through on vacation or for some other reason, look them up at Five Solas Church, and it is the word Five, F-I-V-E, Solas Church.

I'm sorry, let me back up. It's Five Solas dot Church, Five Solas dot Church. And we hope that you have the opportunity to visit there and even join there if you live in the area. Well, first of all, let's start also with a brief description, Pastor Bill Shishko, of the Bonson Institute, and tell us a little bit about the public meeting that is happening today.

Well, I would prefer to defer to Christian on that because of his position. May I just give a little personal anecdote about Greg Bonson to kind of get us into things?

Oh, sure.

Dr. Bonson and I were, he was a West Coast guy, I was an East Coast guy, but so I think it was during my seminary years, 1976 to 79, not long after his master's thesis, Theonomy, was redone and republished, that we began communicating by phone or by email, by letter.

And then most significantly, Greg was with us back, oh, it was in the, it was maybe a year or so before he went home to be with the Lord, in the 1994, it may have been even early 1995. But Greg was invited to do a class on philosophy in Brooklyn, New York, of all places.

And I'd ask Greg if I could have our oldest son, Nathaniel, join me to trek into Brooklyn for five days, eight hours a day, these lectures. Nathaniel was wrestling with issues, he was in his junior year of high school, I was homeschooling him, and he was wrestling with things, as teenagers do.

And I will be eternally grateful for Dr. Bonson's ministry. Even though Greg had health issues from his youth, really, he had various issues with his physical heart, and needed his break. At each break, Nathaniel was the youngest one in the class.

He knew that Nathaniel had had a reformed upbringing, and he was willing to have them. But Greg would take, Greg was, and I'm not exaggerating, Greg Bonson was without doubt the most masterful teacher under whom I've ever sat.

And he would take time with Nathaniel at the breaks to be sure that Nathaniel got things, and never in a patronizing way. Greg was outstanding with all of his students. And it was on the Thursday of that week when we were driving back home, and Nathaniel said, Dad, I get it now, the Christian faith, it makes sense, all the pieces come together.

And whether that was the time the Lord had worked regeneration in Nathaniel or not, I don't know. But from that time on, he didn't wrestle with those issues, and he had a real clear commitment to the Lord.

So, when it was brought to my attention that there was interest in getting Dr. Bonson's material available, and we're talking about 1800 cassette tapes over that of Greg's teachings on philosophy, apologetics, ethics, a lot on the Christian life, I was thrilled to know of that, and have been involved as an advisor for the Bonson Institute since that time, about five years ago.

But there's where I'm going to turn things over to my brother Christian, because he is the expert on the Bonson Institute and its origin and its purposes.

By the way, I just wanted to quickly say, I don't know if you're aware of this, Bill, or if you forgot it if I told you, that I had an interview with Greg Bonson face-to-face long before I was hosting Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Believe it or not, our late friend Steve Schlissel, he had Dr. Bonson speak at his church sometime in the early 1990s, and I remember the subject was on the ascension of Christ. I believe it may have been the very first sermon I ever heard on the ascension of Christ, even though I knew about the ascension and believed it, having been a member of a Reformed Baptist church.

But the topic of the ascension seems to be something that is not preached upon enough, and Steve Schlissel said to me, I know for a fact that one day you're going to be a talk radio host. So I want you to go into the study with this portable recorder, and I want you to interview Greg Bonson and somehow use it one day when you do become a talk radio host.

I was working for WMCA Radio at the time, but I was not a talk show host, and so I did. I interviewed Greg Bonson, and the tragedy of this all is that I lost the cassette tape. But I do remember that vividly, and I am forever in the debt of the late Steve Schlissel for doing that.

As much as I had serious disagreements with Steve theologically later on in his life, he was a dear friend to me, and I thank him for all he had done for me, even writing a very lengthy letter of recommendation for me at one point.

But sorry to interrupt you there, Christian. If you'd like to give us some details on the Bonson Institute, that'd be great.

Sure, we can start with a little bit of history. Besides equipping thousands of Christians to defend their faith during his lifetime, Dr. Bonson also left the world, as Bill suggested, over 1 ,800 recordings.

He called me an expert, so I'll give you the exact number we have. We have 1 ,844. We have no idea how many have been lost, but that's what we had available to us. We had lectures, sermons, debates, and after his death, these recordings were digitized and made available online, but they remained behind a paywall.

So 2019 -2020, there were a few of us who were sharing a vision to release these recordings into the public domain. So we contacted the Covenant Media Foundation, and we asked if we could obtain shared rights for the audio recordings.

We agreed on a contract, and after a very short season of fundraising, we had rights to those recordings in September 2020, and our first step as an institute was to upload everything onto sermonaudio .com.

So it was now free for all. Praise God. The next priority for our institute was to remaster the audio files because, as Bill said, they were from cassette recorders. And sometimes the recorder wasn't properly positioned in the room.

Sometimes there was chatter and static. So we decided to have them professionally remastered, and we're happy to announce that 149 out of 152 series are now complete, and our target date for all the recordings is June 2026.

So that was the Bonson Institute, mainly just releasing into the public domain all of these treasures of knowledge and wisdom. But having done that, our initial vision grew, and we're now a full-fledged institute and a charitable trust.

We've conducted one conference and I'm planning another for 2026. We published a couple books, and we are delighting in our calling to equip Christians to be ready always to defend their faith.

Praise God. And I'd like to let you folks know that if you'd like to, after this live show is over, if you want to look up the five-day tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, five days in 2020, that this took place from the 26th of October through the 30th of October, featuring various guests who were very knowledgeable on the life and legacy and teaching of Dr. Greg L. Bonson, all you need to do is go to irontrepanzionradio .com, and in the search engine, type in Greg L. Bonson, which is B-A-H-N-S-E-N, and all of those links to those interviews will come up.

So, tell us about this event today, Christian.

Tonight, we're having our second public meeting. The first was way back when we started in 2020, and it's scheduled for 7 o 'clock p .m., Central Standard Time. The board members will offer reports on our current projects and share goals and events planned for the upcoming year.

We'll also be opening the floor for questions or suggestions, so if any of your listeners are interested in learning more about the Institute or would like to partner with us and volunteer for us, go to our website tonight, bonsoninstitute .com, 7 o 'clock Central Standard Time, and just click the blue Zoom button, and we'll let you in.

If you're on a desktop, that button will be right below Dr. Bonson's portrait on the right-hand side, and if you're on a cell phone, the Zoom button will be just below the podcast icons. So, please come and learn more about the Institute.

Think about how you might want to get involved, and right now, we have a very diligent volunteer staff, but we'd like to see our team grow, so if you have time and talents and interest, we'd love to meet you tonight.

Okay.

And once again, the website for the Bonson Institute is bonsoninstitute .com, B-A-N-S-E-N institute .com. Pastor Bill, perhaps you could pick up now by letting our listeners know some reasons why everyone listening, no matter what theological background they are coming from in the Christian faith, why they should discover and get to know and make use of the brilliance of Greg L. Bonson.

Why Greg Bonson Matters for the Church

Well, that's a great question, Chris. Dr. Bonson—and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, and incidentally, just to give a little biography here—Dr. Bonson was born in 1948, went home to be with the Lord on December 11, 1995.

I wept that night. Greg was, among other things, probably the most articulate and competent debater in the latter part of the 20th century. And if you go to the library portion of the Bonson Institute website, you will find the three debates that we know of, that we have recorded, on which he deals with a couple of atheists.

And one, he deals with R .C. Sproul and the difference between supposed classical apologetics and presuppositional apologetics. But to answer your question, number one, faithfulness to the Word of God.

Dr. Bonson was clearly committed to what we know of as the Reformed faith, represented in the Westminster Standards, but he was always gracious in dealing with those with whom he disagreed. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have been on the other side of Dr. Bonson in the debates, but he was always gracious.

But he was such a very learned man, to say the least. I think it's interesting that when he went to Westminster Seminary between 1970 and 1973, he got two degrees at the same time in three years—his Master of Divinity degree and his Master of Theology degree.

So he was brilliant. But he was also able to take some of the most complex subjects, and without dumbing them down, he would make them clear to people. Frankly, I don't know of anybody that's had that kind of a skill.

The third thing is he was willing to tackle controversial topics and break them down and deal with them. And whether he agreed with them or not, his arguments were very powerful, and in two areas that we can get to a little bit later.

One is an apologetic methodology. Apologetics is defense of the faith, and Dr. Bonson was, to say the least, very much in the school of, we'll say, Lucius Rushdie or Cornelius Van Till in presenting and defending presuppositional apologetics.

And we can discuss that a little bit later. I love the phrase revealed apologetics. It's basically the way the Scriptures themselves tell you to present the faith to others. The other, and in my opinion, unfortunately, very controversial, his volume in 1977, Theonomy, that was, as I mentioned, a reworking of his master's thesis at Westminster Seminary, really put a cloud in many ways over Dr. Bonson himself.

But Dr. Bonson believed that the Mosaic law, the civil law, was to be applied not specifically, but I would say principally, that the principles of the Mosaic law should be a standard and application to civil government.

His thesis in 1977 was just that. He, over almost 20 years, of course, he refined that and developed that. He listened to criticisms. The Bonson Institute has published the volume we now call Christ is King, a presentation that he gave at, presentations that he gave at Grove City College in the early 1990s, and not, I'm sorry, at Geneva College.

They really, that is, in my opinion, a far better representation of where Dr. Bonson stood in the application of the principles of the Mosaic law to government. Again, in my opinion, it is, it's pretty close to what the Westminster standards speak of as the general equity of the law.

But that's a long answer, Chris, but I urge people to look at the Bonson Institute website and library. You will be stunned at the things that are available for homeschooling parents, for those of you learning at home, for those wrestling with issues about defense of the faith or philosophy or ethics.

You're not going to get a better guide than Dr. Bonson.

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Go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with my two guests, Pastor Bill Shishko and Pastor Christian McShaffery, and they are both involved in the Bonson Institute.

And perhaps I'll go to Pastor McShaffery. When it comes to apologetics, which is so inseparable from the life and legacy of Greg Bonson, perhaps you could explain even that word in more detail. There are people out there that still might wrongly think that you're making an apology for something that you believe, as if you're sorry for it or something.

That's not at all what that means. And maybe get into more details about Dr. Bonson's own approach to apologetics.

Apologetics and Presuppositionalism

Yes, I'd be happy to address that. In our previous segment, the question was raised, why should people have interest in Greg Bonson? And the first answer that came to my mind is because God calls us, each one of us in his holy word, to be engaged in the ministry of apologetics.

1 Peter 3 15 says, Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. Be ready always to give an answer.

The Greek word translated as answer there is apologia, and it means a reasoned defense or a speech in defense of something. It's something you would hear in a public debate or perhaps a court of law. And when it comes to our Christian hope, we need to be ready to defend it if anyone asks us why we trust in Christ.

Now, our attitude is addressed in the verse. We need to do that with meekness and fear. But equally important, and this is where Bonson made much contribution to the discipline of apologetics, equally important to our attitude is our approach, because it is easy when we're debating our opponents to get drawn into fruitless debates or granting arguments or presuppositions that they're expecting us to grant that we shouldn't.

And when we do that, we end up compromising our own convictions and arguing from science and naturalism and our rationality rather than beginning and ending with the revealed will of God and Scripture.

And then God's word is truth, and we are going to defend our hope through his truth. So I was looking back in my class notes way back in seminary, and I have Bonson's definition of apologetics. Let me read it.

Apologetics aims to defend the Christian faith against the variety of challenges leveled by unbelievers, thereby vindicating the Christian philosophy of life against all autonomous philosophies of life.

So that's what apologetics is, and there are different models of it, but we are committed to the presuppositional model, which Bonson taught and helped people understand. Presuppositions can be complicated because it's really a network of core convictions that a person holds.

They have revisionary immunity. They're off limits, and people have several presuppositions, and that determines their worldview. But our presupposition, again, is that God is God. He has revealed truth in his holy word, and we begin and end with that divine authority when defending our faith.

Amen.

Now, Pastor Bill Shishko, in addition to the scores of audio lectures and teaching and sermons by the late Greg L. Bonson, I know that there are books that he wrote that are still available in print in various publishing houses and book distributing organizations that you would recommend that people get a hold of.

If you could mention some of these.

Let me add one other thing to what Christian said. I love the merchandise available at the Bonson Institute. One of them emphasizes no neutrality, and I love that because that's precisely what the scriptures say when they talk about the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light.

So, working that out is always very interesting, but there is no neutrality between belief and unbelief. Dr. Van Til would say, and I think Greg would have reiterated it, that the mind of an unbeliever is like a buzzsaw.

It will take whatever data you give it and try to rip into it. But anyway, I appreciate you mentioning that. Of course, the two from the Bonson Institute themselves that we've been able to publish, the first of what I hope will be many.

The first is a little book just called Apologetics, which does mean you're not apologizing for anything. It's a defense of the faith. But I urge all of your listeners to go, you can get this at amazon .com or you can go to the Bonson Institute and get the little volume Apologetics by Dr. Bonson.

That's really, will get you into the waters of this. Now, for those who really want to study the topic, Dr. Bonson's lengthy volume called Van Til's Apologetic is absolutely a classic. Dr. Van Til wasn't really teaching anything new when he emphasized what we call presuppositional apologetics.

He was building on essentially the methodology of Augustine and Calvin and others. But Dr. Van Til's material, which ranged everywhere from epistemology, the study of how we know things, right through methodology and presenting the faith, his material can be pretty heavy duty.

And Dr. Bonson, again, with masterful skill, was able to assimilate all of this material and put it in a lengthy volume, but a very worthwhile read called Van Til's Apologetic. And again, for those who want to study apologetics, I highly recommend that.

On a more popular level, and these are volumes that are available to you, you can get them at amazon .com, Dr. Bonson's volume Always Ready lays out very specifically how you present the faith to others.

And my favorite, I'm assuming that it's still available. It was published posthumously based on, I believe, one of the last lectures or series of lectures that Dr. Bonson did called Pushing the Antithesis.

Antithesis is the start difference between belief and unbelief and how that works it out in every area, especially as unbelievers suppress the truth and unrighteousness. But Pushing the Antithesis gives very specific illustrations of how in dealing with unbelievers, you show the ultimate incoherence of their own view.

I think of the old, this is a dictum from a communist, but it applies here, Vladimir Lenin's statement, give the capitalists enough rope and they'll hang themselves. Well, you give unbelief enough rope and it will hang itself.

And Pushing the Antithesis is just, I regard that as just a delightful volume to help with all of that. And then of course, on the Bonson Institute website, when you go to the library, you'll find many, many things.

I think close to the Pushing the Antithesis is that, again, my favorite on that is called Gettin' Down and Dirty, where Dr. Bonson just gets into the specifics of how you deal with unbelief, and we need that.

One of the things that just popped into my head, Pastor Bill, as you know, over the decades of my Christian life, one of my primary activities has been arranging, hosting, and emceeing and moderating Christian debates, theological debates.

And one of the things that I'm always clenching my fist and getting frustrated sometimes when a man who is defending the truth in a debate interrupts his opponent too much, who is in the process of hanging himself with his own workers.

Oh, it's interesting.

And the goal should be to just give them enough time. To just keep talking. And that goes without saying with political debates that we've seen too.

Yeah, go ahead. After a poll of that, excuse me for interrupting, Chris, I can't help but think, please listen to the two, the debate that Dr. Bonson had with Dr. Stein and Dr. Tabash. Am I pronouncing that right, Christian?