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Nov 6, 2026
LARRY HERZOG, Jr., a confessional Lutheran, author, & Adult Sunday School teacher @ Grace Free Lutheran Church of Valley City, ND, who will address:
“ONE MAN’s JOURNEY OUT FROM FREEMASONRY”
Special Co-host: JOHN M. OTIS, author of “Unveiling Freemasonry’s Idolatry”
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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 6th day of November 2026, and before I introduce to you my guest and special co-host and our theme for the day, I want to remind all men in ministry leadership that you are all invited to my next free, biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, May 6th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., that's 2027, of course, at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring for the very first time ever as our keynote speaker, Pouyan Marshahi, who is a native of Iran, who is a convert out from the Zoroastrian religion into biblical Christianity, and he has been serving now for years as the pastor of a Reformed Baptist congregation in Cheltenham, England, called the Providence Baptist Chapel.
This is, as always, free of charge. Your admission is free, your lunch is free, and every man that attends will receive one and possibly two heavy sacks of free, brand-new books personally selected by me and donated by generous Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom.
Everything is absolutely free of charge. If you would like to register for this free event, please, first of all, mark this down on your calendars now so you don't double-book yourself in the months to come and therefore make it difficult or impossible to attend the event.
Please mark your calendar and reserve it unless an emergency occurs, obviously, but we would love to see you there on Thursday, May 6th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., 2027 at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania.
Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and give me your full name, the full name of your church or parachurch ministry, its location, and the number of men who will be joining you at this event.
That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put Pastors Luncheon 2027 in the subject line. Well, today we have a returning guest to discuss a different subject than he covered the last time. We have Larry Herzog, Jr. joining us today.
He is a confessional Lutheran. He is an author and an adult Sunday school teacher at Grace Free Lutheran Church of Valley City, North Dakota, and today we are going to be addressing one man's journey out from Freemasonry.
It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Larry Herzog.
Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for inviting me back. I enjoyed the conversation last time and looking forward to another great couple hours with you.
I am as well, Larry, and we have joining us as our co-host, someone who I think is ideal for the position of co-host today due to the subject, we have John M. Otis, dear friend of mine for decades, who is the author of Unveiling Freemasonry's Idolatry, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, John Otis.
Good afternoon, Chris. It's a pleasure. And I think it would be wise to start off with a brief definition of Freemasonry. And John, since you have written, to my knowledge, the largest book exposing Freemasonry coming from the perspective of an evangelical Christian, I think it would be wise for you to provide for our listeners a brief summary of what Freemasonry is, and then we'll have Larry begin giving his own personal testimony on the subject.
I'll try to be very succinct here, Chris. Freemasonry touts itself as a secret organization, but really you can obtain literature, like I did many years ago, from Masonic publishing houses about their rituals.
I think the essence of Freemasonry, the problem that I have with it, is that it's essentially a works salvation religion. It is a religion. Masonic authorities say it is a religion. It has all the characteristics of a religion, and essentially its plan of salvation is one of works.
And if you go through the symbols of Freemasonry, for example, very quickly, the most common symbol is, you'll see it on the back of bumper stickers, a G with a compass and a square. The G represents deity, the compass represents man's divine nature, the square represents his material nature.
And through all the three degrees, and though you have a 32nd-degree Mason, you're no more of a Mason when you're a 32nd than when you are a Master Mason, a third degree. And the journey is basically, they believe that man has an immortal soul, he's the eminence of the divine being, that is his immortal soul, and they would be technically, philosophically, what we would call Gnostics, Neoplatonists, who believe that matter is bad.
And so the whole purpose is, throughout the degrees, to gain ascendancy, the immortal part of man's being, over his earthly passions. And so, I mean, that's in a nutshell, Chris.
Okay, and by the way, excuse me, Joe, you kind of disappeared from your microphone. What were you saying? And we may, go ahead, no, you're garbled, hello? Are you there, Joe? I'm here, Cliff. Okay. Well, anyway, I mean, John, I'm sorry, I'm looking at your initials on my computer screen, and they are J-O for John Otis, and I mistakenly call you Joe.
Anyway. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Were you saying something after you finished that summary? Not really. Okay. By the way, folks, if you want to hear my most recent interview with John Otis on Freemasonry, after this live show is over, of course, you can just type in Freemasonry in the search engine of ironsharpensironradio .com, and this interview from April 1st, 2026, will come up where we discussed, can Christians rightly remain or become Freemasons or support Freemasonry in any way?
Another point of interest is that way back in the old days when Ironsharpensironradio was broadcasting out of WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island, is when I first began interviewing John Otis, and we addressed his book, I think it was not long after it came into print, which is Unveiling Freemasonry's Idolatry.
A listener to that interview in Ireland contacted John and said, I would like you to debate a high-ranking Freemason in England, and that debate actually happened, and if anybody wants to watch that debate on YouTube, just go to YouTube and type in the search engine John Otis Debates a Freemason, and that should be sufficient.
Do you have anything else you wanted to say about that debate, John?
It was God's providence that opened that up, and it was your show, Ironsharpensiron, that made that happen. So in 2008, September of 2008, I had that debate in London, and what was wonderful about that debate is that it allowed me to go to England and retrace the reaching steps of my great-great-grandfather.
I never thought I would be able to do that, and that opened the door for that. So it was a wonderful time for about four days in England.
Great. Well, Larry Herzog, you are our primary guest for the day. Why don't you tell us—and by the way, folks, you can hear Larry's previous interview with me on Ironsharpensiron Radio. Just type in Herzog, H-E-R-Z-O-G, in the search engine, and you will be able to hear Larry's conversation with me on Alcoholics Anonymous Celebrate Recovery in the 12-Step Programs for the Recovery of Addicts.
Are they truly the best and most biblically faithful pathways to achieve sobriety, rescue, and freedom from addiction? And both Larry and I said no to that question. But you can look that up, and you will also hear Larry's own personal testimony of salvation in that interview.
But Larry, tell us about when you first discovered the Freemasons and where you were in your life on your spiritual journey at that point.
Absolutely. Now, the journey out of Freemasonry isn't going to be dramatic, but it was part of my kind of ongoing sanctification as an early adult Christian. If you guys listened to the previous interview, I did come to faith in Christ as an adult after having been an atheist for about seven years.
But I was actually, when I first joined Freemasonry, I used to live in southern Wisconsin, and it was when I had just become a, believe it or not, a Nazarene pastor. So I was kind of a brief synopsis.
First church I started going to after I came to faith was basically kind of an Armenian general kind of Baptist church, the North American Baptist, I believe. And when we moved from North Dakota to Wisconsin, we started going to the Ephraim Church.
They became basically like a megachurch, like the governor of Wisconsin went there. So we just moved it to a smaller town, and there was a Nazarene church there. And we're still, you know, I didn't know anything about, you know, spiritual perfectionism and all that.
And that would be a good, another topic to talk about at some point, the whole Methodist line of church and spiritual perfectionism and all that.
Yeah, I actually had a debate on my show between a Reformed Baptist and a Nazarene pastor on that. Okay.
But continue. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's interesting because, you know, also Salvation Army and all those churches kind of are all spiritual perfections. But yeah, so that's kind of a tangent. But yeah, so I did become a Nazarene pastor, which really kind of helped me in my sanctification and maturing spiritually, because, you know, when you're faced with these concepts of entire sanctification and what does that mean, and all these things that are not biblical, you tend to either, you know, kind of close your eyes to it or you dig in, which I dug in.
So the Masons, before I took that position, I was going through their pastor preparation program, what they call it. So basically, you kind of go through what's equivalent to calling it an associate's degree to be prepared to be ordained.
But in a local church, I used to take walks in my town, I'd walk past this Masonic temple. It was an old, I think it had been a Lutheran church prior. And you're just kind of wondering, you know, what happens in there?
So I decided I wanted to find out. So I did some research and, you know, when you look it up, you're like, okay, you know, we, you know, they will say that their goal is to make good men better. And it's, you know, a fraternity of like-minded men and so forth.
So it looks, it all looks good. And of course, at this time, this was in the early aughts, you know, Masonry was getting a little bit of resurgence with certain, with different movies and so forth that were romanticizing it.
So a short-lived resurgency, which I think is probably, probably best, really is best. But at the time, people were starting to, you know, investigate Freemasonry. So got engaged, talked, everyone I talked to, you know, said they were classified themselves as evangelical Christians.
The churches that they had attended were ones that I had considered to be fairly solid. So my initial issues or questions in regards to whether it was compatible with Christianity, at least from those conversations, had been thwarted and I felt comfortable moving forward.
And you go through and we'll get into the ritual and all that stuff, probably as we go along. Suffice to say, and I do like to state this at the beginning, because I think it's important to the conversation, is the Masons aren't unique in, you know, kind of the idea of a men's fraternity that has a ritual associated with it, that has a generic God associated with it.
Things like the Eagle's Club, Elk's Club, Moose Lodge, these all have very similar rituals. They have an altar in the center of their meeting room, they have a Bible that's open up as a prop, you know, using biblical texts out of context.
They require a belief in a generic deity, same as, you know, Masonry and Oddfellows and a litany of different groups. If you look at the ritual, and I'm sure John can dig into that as well as we talk about it, as he kind of gave his generic description, you know, a lot of those things are very similar to even the rituals that you would go through for like a college fraternity.
And I would recommend against those as well, because they do have a very ritualistic type of initiation and so forth. Many of those will just have a single degree or initiation. But when you dig into it, it's going to be very similar, it's going to be kind of ridiculous oaths that you agree to and so forth.
So I think it's important to know that, you know, if you are targeting just Freemasonry, you probably need to widen your scope because there are many of these organizations that maybe don't have the spotlight on them or haven't had the spotlight on them because they just haven't been, you know, A, they haven't been as romanticized in the movies as of late, or B, they just simply weren't as popular.
Freemasonry, you know, 50 years ago, you know, practically everyone was a Freemason, which is very popular and very permeated our society in America quite a bit. So, yeah, good to understand that. So basically, as I was digging in to the Nazarene Church and their beliefs and so forth, and really becoming more of a biblical scholar and maturing a lot from a spiritual standpoint, you know, ultimately, I initially just decided that it wasn't a good use of my time in that I felt that if I'm going to be spending all this time and effort and study, that it should be more focused on the Church.
And then once I started kind of being in that mindset, and then say, well, maybe I should take these oaths and these, you know, dramatic tellings and stuff of the ritual more seriously and, you know, looking more closely at what we're actually saying and what it actually means.
Because in many, and I'd say probably most Midwestern lodges, while they do require a belief in a generic deity, and what they call the grand architect of the universe, that Jesus is either for that or sometimes for God and so forth.
But a lot of them be like, well, we only allow Christians and there is autonomy in the local lodge where, you know, basically it's the votes of the local lodge. So, you know, they try to, I guess, maybe convince themselves it's more Christian because they say, hey, we all pray to Christ when we do this, even though we use these generic words.
So, yeah, you mentioned the interview you did previously where it says, can Christian be Masons? I think it's more probably appropriate to say, you know, should they? Because can they? Tons of them are.
Tons of these confessing Christians are Masons. Fortunately, it's declining quite a bit because local lodges are dying. But I wouldn't make sweeping statements saying that, you know, a Christian joins a Masonic lodge and they've somehow lost their, you know, they're somehow either proven to not be a Christian or simply are, you know, we have all sorts of different idols in our lives and so forth, and it's super concerning.
But I would definitely counsel, I guess, care in dealing with folks and try to get them out of those organizations. But I wouldn't look at someone who is in a Masonic lodge and say there's a, you know, devil worshiper or someone that's just like, you know, they likely have, they're just oblivious to the deeper meanings of the ritual.
So, but yeah, so I kept doing that. And as I continued to evaluate, you know, what we're actually doing and whether it was fruitful and so forth, I just came to the conclusion that this is not compatible with Christianity.
It is taken, if you're taking all of it to heart, it is, it's another God and it's not the God of the Bible. And, you know, we're using the Bible itself as a prop, as furniture in the lodge room and that it wasn't something that I wanted to continue on with.
And going back to some of your earlier statements, did you say, and I'm pretty sure you did, that even other lodges like the Elks Lodge have a veiled religiosity to them and spiritual nature where a false gospel and false understanding of God is being presented?
Yep. So, Eagles, Elks, and Moose Lodge, all three of them.
And I have all of those within a 10-minute walk of where I'm sitting. Yep. Wow. Yeah, absolutely. I had no idea that all of them were like that.
Yeah, the main difference between them and the Masonic Lodge is they have, basically, an initiation. So, basically, they have like one degree. So, where the Masons would go through three degrees before you become a Master Mason.
But it also has an altar in the middle of their lodge room. If they have ritual work that they go through, that's, you know, quote, unquote, secret. None of it's secret. None of the organizations, including Masons, think that it's secret.
They just agree that they won't share it. But they know it's all, you know, these days, all on the internet. But they would have a chaplain. They would have a Bible that's open, basically, used as a prop, very similar to what is done in a free masonry.
And yeah, I would say it's equally as unfruitful to be a part of those as as a Christian. And as I mentioned in our last interview, you know, it's not unsimilar to organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous.
They require you to have a belief in a higher power. So, Masons, Grand Architect of the Universe, Generic God, you know, you can ascribe to that whatever God that you believe in, similar with AA. You can have a belief in some form, some deity.
And it could be, you know, a doorknob. It could be, you know, we've talked about that. It's very similar. And then it also becomes the center of someone's life, very much like the Masons or other fraternal organization.
It becomes the focus of your life. Same with Alcoholics Anonymous. Everything revolves around what happens in those meetings. And you really get, it really becomes what you're living for. So, very similar in those aspects.
And by the way, is the Raccoon Lodge that Ralph Cramden was a member of similar? I'm only kidding. I think that was an invented lodge, wasn't it? I don't know. Yeah. But why, I'm trying to think of how I'm going to phrase this.
Yep. You were a Nazarene pastor. Yep. And what was it lacking, what was lacking in your life, did you believe, that drew you to explore and then join a Masonic Lodge? What was lacking in your own fellowship with other Christians, or perhaps you just figured that this would be a doorway for me to evangelize people?
I don't know what you, what were you thinking?
Yeah. So it was, I actually joined it as I was transitioning from that E-Free Church to the Nazarene Church. So I joined and I was fairly new Master Mason when I was getting more involved in the Nazarene Church.
And then probably a year from then, I ended up going through the ordination program and so forth and becoming a Nazarene pastor. So the Lodge membership did predate the ordination. But yeah, it was kind of during that low between churches where I was looking for fellowship, looking for, yeah, looking for male friends.
And that's hard to find, especially if you don't, well, even in the church a lot of times, it's hard to find male friends. So it's, yeah, I was kind of missing it. I'm a former military, used to the camaraderie and so forth.
So it was, yeah, I was looking for, had to get plugged into the community as well as looking for some additional male commandership.
Now, did you ever receive any negative reaction from either Evangelical Free or Nazarene Christians, elders, et cetera, saying, wait a minute, pal, what are you doing there? Any kind of a, did they know about it?
Now, yeah, they knew about it. In fact, yeah, the E-Free Church and Nazarene Church, at least from my interactions and engagement with them, they don't have a hard and fast rule about quote unquote secret organizations like most of the major Lutheran synods and stuff do and many other churches do, but organizations, but yeah, they didn't really have any sort of, you know, firm stance on it.
And actually I transitioned from once I, you know, kind of was more, I guess, kind of awakened to what the Nazarene Church bleed and everything. And when I came out of that church, ended up going to a, basically like a John MacArthur type church.
Independent fundamental Baptist church that was Calvinistic. And, you know, they, I told them offered that I was still a member at that time. Actually, let me think. I'm trying to remember if I came out of it.
I think it was right after I moved to that church that I came out of May Street. So it was, time was a little different, but yeah, it kind of, but my eyes were opening up, but they didn't really have a problem with it.
They asked me some questions and they're like, okay, well, as long as it doesn't become problems. So yeah, I think, but I think a lot of times people in churches don't want to make waves. You know, you got to maybe a new family coming in and unfortunately, a lot of times people are more prone to just not make waves and not, you know, potentially see another church member or whatever leave.
Whether that was the primary driver from the Ephraim and Nazarene church, I'm not positive. I would say they were just oblivious to what it is and didn't have any firm stances on it. The Baptist church, I think they just simply were like, hey, you know, we like these guys, they're going to become members.
And they just simply didn't want to rock the boat, which is a feeling in the leadership to their part. And yeah, it was soon after that that I left the Masonic Lodge.
And John Otis, this actually reminded me of a pertinent aspect of the whole reason you came to write the book you wrote, because there was a difference of opinion, from what I remember, in the PCA over whether or not a Christian in good standing should ever join the Masonic Lodge.
And you were asked to be on a panel of sorts to determine that question. And if you could pick up where I left off there, John.
It was about 1985 that I began to—a member of my church asked me, I was preaching on the various cults. And a member said, you're going to deal with the Masons, John. And I said, you know, when I was in seminary, some people said there were some real problems.
I don't know much about it. So I ordered a little book at the time, Should a Christian be a Mason? And I thought, wow, if any of this is remotely true, we got a real serious problem. And I started ordering materials, and I started delving into it and realized the prevalence, not only in conservative Presbyterians, but Baptist churches all over the country.
And I said, something needs to be done about this. So at my Presbytery, being a Presbyterian, I said, we need to study and really condemn this. And I had a clerk say to me, well, John, it'd be better to request the General Assembly—that's the highest body in the Presbyterian church—let's request a study committee.
And so in 1985, at the PCA General Assembly, they approved, believe it or not, to have a study committee. And since I had done all this research, I was appointed to be the convener of that committee. And we met for two years, from 1985 to 1987, and we told people they can come in and present material.
Needless to say, there were some men who said, I can't believe you're taking on this godly organization. And I said, well, come and talk to us, send us any literature. And I will never forget, on that committee, we met in Atlanta, Georgia, and a gentleman said, who happened to be the Grand Master of the state of Georgia, he said, I want to come and set the record straight.
So I said, come on in. So I'll never forget. There was four of us men on this committee. One of them was my former Old Testament professor, two men that helped start the PCA, and then I was the youngest guy then.
So this gentleman comes walking in, and I'll never forget the expression on one of the members of our committee. His eyes got real big. It was the Grand Master of the state of Georgia was his fellow elder at a Presbyterian church in Macon, Georgia.
And he had this little pamphlet, it was a three-page pamphlet. He says, I want to set the record straight. Well, there's only so much information you can get in this little pamphlet. So at that, he quotes a famous statement from Albert Pike, a revered Scottish Rite Freemasonry, it says that the Masonic—I'm paraphrasing—at the Masonic altar, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, all praying to the same God.
And we looked at him, he said, you don't have a problem with this, sir? That was really eye-opening. And so we condemned Freemasonry in 1987 at the General Assembly. The PCA said that it is incompatible with the Christian religion and instructed people what to do with men in the church who are Masons.
And I'll just say this, Chris, the value of one vote. I almost did not go to that General Assembly. The vote to—. John, did you disappear? It was surprising. But then how are we going to implement that in the church?
Well, it was a split assembly. There was 800 commissioners. They couldn't discern a voice vote, so they had to take a hand vote. And Chris, our committee report won by one vote. Wow. One vote. And so, yeah, it's—the first person I ever interviewed, when I started studying it in Coburn, Virginia, there was a man, he was studying to be—thinking about going into the ministry.
I said, when was the first thing that began a problem to you? He says, when I was told, when I come in, the junior deacon speaks for me and says, let's say it's me, John Ilgis, who's long been in the dark, seeks Masonic light.
Well, as a conservative, why would I ever say such a thing? So anyway, I guess my position would be, I think you can be a Christian, but you are a very immature one at best. And we told people—what our committee said to do was instruct a man to go through a study with the elders in the church, after which time we'll tell you why it's incompatible.
And if for some reason you don't think it is, you could be subject to church discipline. It's that serious of a departure.
Right. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. And if anybody wants to join us with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.
If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if the question is personal and private. Let's say you are a Freemason, and you're beginning to question whether or not you belong in that organization, and you don't want to identify yourself at this point.
That's understandable. But please, if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. And we're going to be right back, so please do not go away.
I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.
At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune God.
We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.
We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org. That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon. The Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.
I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.
I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net. That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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Welcome back, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Larry Herzog, Jr., a confessional Lutheran adult Sunday school teacher at Grace Free Lutheran Church of Valley City, North Dakota, and a former Freemason, and we are discussing one man's journey out from Freemasonry.
My special co-host today is John M. Otis, author of Unveiling Freemasonry's Idolatry, and if you have a question, you may submit it to chrisorensen at gmail .com. Give me your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence.
If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, like, for instance, you are a Freemason and you don't want to identify yourself by asking your question.
Well, I wanted to just quickly follow up on what you told us before the break, John Otis. Were there known defiant Freemasons in the Presbyterian denomination that you were a member of at that time who insisted on remaining Freemasons, refused to leave, and made that known in some way?
I don't know if they were defiant.
Probably one of the most dramatic things happened at that General Assembly I was telling you about. I was waiting in the back, and I introduced myself to a gentleman, and he says, that name sounds familiar.
And I said, well, I happen to be on the Freemasonry Committee. He said, oh, yeah. He was a radiologist from Kansas City. And he says, when I heard that the PCA was going to study whether it's compatible, I was a Freemason.
I said, I can't believe you would. What did you find wrong with this? But since you thought that it might be, it got me studying. And, Chris, at a certain point in the Assembly, there was one gentleman who, you know, in certain areas, there are people that carry a lot of votes just because of who they are.
And he said, I want to put a moratorium on studying this for 10 years. Well, the next speaker happened to be that gentleman I was talking to, that radiologist. And he had this deep voice, and he said, brothers, I want you to know I once bowed my knee to bail, but never again.
And if there's any of my brothers in here, he says, if I were to tell you the sacred Masonic name, you'd be obligated to spill my guts out here on the Assembly floor. Well, in that one speech, he nullified that other guy.
And someone kept telling me, John, John, what's the sacred name? Because we never see anybody's guts spilled out on the floor of the Assembly. And I don't know about being defiant. Once it was implemented in my former presbytery, they did deal with a gentleman who the session, the elders of that church, approved a man and a member complained to the presbytery that his session was allowing this man who was a Freemason, in light of our committee's report.
And the presbytery overrode the session and told them, you got to deal with this man. So, honestly, let me just say this. It's interesting, Larry, that you said up in what state it was, that there's a lodge that says we only let Christians in.
If that's the case, then they are going against one of the fundamental principles of Freemasonry. It's the brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God. It is a syncretistic religion. And so, they could get themselves in trouble by saying we're only going to let Christians.
That's not the basic, that's not what Freemasonry teaches, ultimately.
Well, I mean, it's like any other, in this aspect, it's like many other fraternal organizations, like you, let's say you're going to college and you join a fraternity. You see that ritual is like this silly thing that you did to become a member, right?
But if you were to read the oaths and read everything, you'd be like, that's crazy. It obviously would be, for the most part, be incompatible with Christianity and so forth. But I would say probably a good 80 plus of the folks that aren't like just digging into the ritual and being a part of reciting that stuff, they're just joining the lodge to kind of be a part of something.
They would see it as these silly things that you do. So, it would be, yes, making a stand and saying that we only allow Christians in our lodge would go against many fundamental principles. But at the same time, most of that ritual was written and well before even the oldest members were even a glimmer in their parents' eyes.
So, as time goes on, the gravity of what they're saying and what they're reciting and so forth is lost on most of the members. And that's probably one of the ways it's very similar to a lot of these other fraternal organizations because they all have stuff that is concerning.
Masons have the three degrees, so the ritual is, there's a lot more ritual than some of these other organizations. But again, the initiations of like the Elks and the Eagles and Loose Lodge and so forth, those all follow the same kind of, I guess, the same sort of form in that, I guess, one, they have worship without Christ, they require a generic deity.
Two, they all have some sort of salvation, as you mentioned, salvation by moral provenance. So, they require you that you're working on your character, you're working on becoming a better person. And then obviously the Masonic side, and you get additional light, you get additional revelation in that regard.
But yeah, and then the oaths, which are problematic. To be fair with the spill in the guts, all the lodges now say the symbolic penalty of slitting your throat and pouring out your tongue and all the crazy stuff that they say, but they say symbolic penalty.
But it's the mere fact that most of the members are not plugged into what they're actually saying, and they are removed from, you know, when these rituals were initially handed down and created and so forth.
And so, the gravity of them are lost on most of them. So, I do think, so probably if you're tousing someone that's in, thinking about going into any of these organizations, any of these fraternal organizations that have any sort of ritual involved, get them to actually look at and study what they're going to agree to, what the oaths say, what are the teachings, and then also evaluate the fact that, you know, how is the Bible being used in that lodge room?
Is it a prop? Like all these, it's basically a prop and an altar. Why is there an altar? If that's not a church, what's the, if it's not a religion, why do you have an altar? Why do you have a chaplain?
Why do you have these unique prayers that are unique to that organization and are framed by the values and ritual and everything else that that organization puts forth? These are all things that if a Christian, you know, sincerely digs in, even an immature one, you know, through that study and so forth, and, you know, certainly you can help them along, is going to get them to understand that it's simply not compatible.
But I would say that if a church is looking to, maybe they've been identified as the members that are part of the Masons, I would say put down, write down specifically why your church is taking a stand, but don't make it about, it shouldn't be the word Freemason.
It should be those things like I talked about before. Are they setting Christ aside in worship? So is it a generic God? Is there a salvific part of it that is works-based or, you know, is there a salvation-type path as part of the ritual itself?
Is it something outside of Christianity with a religious bent? And then, you know, ultimately, is that fruitful, which it is not. So I would say I would not make it just about the Masons, but about what does that stand for?
And because, again, this is not unique to the Freemasons.
Well, how do you respond? Go ahead, go ahead, John.
Well, you mentioned earlier, and it's true, one of the mantras is we're going to make good men better. Okay, from a biblical perspective right there, and as a Reformed Christian, we say we're not good.
You're not good. That's the problem. And you're dead in your sins, and this idea of the divine nature being an eminence from God, that is immortal, and the flesh is evil, well, that's unbiblical. And Chris and I both know Joe Moorcraft.
By the way, he's in a rehab center, proving Chris. And he was, as a young pastor, he was doing a memorial service, and near the end, he didn't know anything about the Masons. And all of a sudden, these men come walking down the aisle with these coats and white gloves and said, we're going to take over now.
He says, you're going to do what? As a Master Mason, you have arrived. Your spiritual journey is complete, and you were allowed to have a Masonic burial, and you will get to go and be with the great architect of the universe.
It is all works righteousness. And I think with young men, we have to stress that and say, do you believe that this is going to improve you? What are you trusting in? Are you trusting in your works? Or are you trusting only in the atoning word of Jesus?
I mean, these are pertinent things that need to be asked of men who are in the.
Lodge. Right. Now, how do you respond, as I was just about to ask Larry, if you are taking that approach of trying to determine in an interview with a member who is in a Masonic lodge, trying to get them to recognize that they are in a heretical organization?
How do you respond if they just say, oh, this is just theatrical ritual, just like if I was involved in Dungeons and Dragons, or if I was involved in dressing up like a knight in shining armor at one of those medieval Renaissance fairs, or I like dressing up like a Confederate soldier at the Civil War reenactments?
It is really no different. How do you respond to that kind of thing?
Well, obviously, I would respond differently than maybe someone else, because I have been in it. So I know I'm more instantly involved with the incompatibility with Christianity. And I certainly am not defending Freemasonry.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so narrowly focused on Freemasonry when these same characteristics that are incompatible with Christianity are in so many other organizations. So I would say, certainly, you can say, okay, Freemasonry, we know it's incompatible, and you can have those conversations with members.
But I would coach it in, you know, here's why it's incompatible. And no, we're not just picking on Masons. This is any organization that exhibit these characteristics, we believe are not compatible with Christianity.
So I would say, don't narrow your scope and get hyper-focused on Freemasonry, when this is a problem with a multitude of organizations. So we should kind of broaden and we should be looking at anything that our members are getting involved with that are modeling these sorts of behaviors that we want to make sure and, you know, counsel them and ultimately try to get them out of those organizations.
Now, how long were you in the Masons before you started to recognize, wait a minute, this doesn't smell kosher to me?
Yeah, I'd say probably at least over two years. Yeah, so two, two and a half years, I went up through the ranks and spent a year as a worship master, which is basically like president of the local lodge.
So you're the ruler of the lodge, the master of the lodge, what they call a past master. So I had formerly been what they call a worship master. So, yeah, I'd say a couple of years at least for, because I was, when you join, and if you're someone that's just really digging in, sorry, voice issues, but you, when you dig into the rituals and you go and you're playing a part, you're basically focused on memorization and memorizing this part of the ritual and so forth.
And that part, it's fun. It's fun. Like if you're in a play or something, you're memorizing something, you're putting on a show, especially if you're not really digging deep in what you're actually saying and what it actually means.
It's fun to act things out. So, I mean, there's a lot of things and you're doing it with friends and so forth. It's something that is enjoyable if you're not thinking too deep about it. So, I'd say first couple of years, especially if you have the majority of people that's joined the lodge because they got friends that joined the lodge and they don't really dig into the ritual.
And the other people that just want to play the parts and they're looking for something maybe to occupy their time, looking for something to fill something that's lacking in their lives and they just dive in.
And interestingly enough, you have folks that are, you know, many people are at least professing Christians that fall on both sides and a lot of times they won't see a problem for either side because they may be digging into the ritual as far as memorizing it, but they're still not evaluating it in the context of side by side with the Bible or what does it mean in context of their belief in Christ.
Because they just see it as additive. They see it as going to, like, let's say you go to a motivational speaker or, you know, you read a book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. You don't necessarily see that as, okay, I'm going to learn how to win friends and influence people and this is going to replace Christ.
That's not a thought as a Christian would think. Similarly, that's basically how they would think about lunch. Okay, make good people better. Okay, yeah. Fundamentally, I know that, you know, total depravity and we're not good at anything that we do.
Good is through Christ. But when you're looking at, you know, if you're evaluating other, so if you don't see it as religion, you just see it as, you know, like a motivational speaker or like a plan to improve yourself where you say, okay, this can be additive.
There are social keys and social tools that I can learn to help improve myself as a, you know, functioning member of society. So in many ways, and I think men in general are good at this, you kind of compartmentalize everything.
You don't see them as competing interests. You see, this is my identity in Christ. Here's where I get together with other people. We learn to be better. We learn to be better community members. We learn to help each other and they don't see it as an impedible.
That's why probably the biggest thing is when you're talking with someone who's in these organizations is to help them to just, okay, look at the ritual, you read this, that, or like in my case, I've been through it so I can kind of explain it and talk to them at that level.
But getting them to really understand what is it that you are actually saying and what is it that you're actually agreeing to? What are you actually, what do these oaths actually mean? What do they actually say?
And, you know, don't look at it in, you know, in its own compartmentalized form. Look at it in the whole of your life and how does that, you know, is it competing with Christianity, which it obviously is because it is religious.
But yeah, guys are very, very easily able to compartmentalize things. And I think that's what works against them in identifying and understanding that it's, that's untruthful.
Now, we have to go to our midway break right now. And once again, if you would like to join us, we do have some people waiting to have their questions asked and answered. If you'd like to join them, the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
We'll be right back. Don't go away after these messages.
So this program is sponsored by Hope PR Ministry. Hope PR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan. We are dedicated to sharing Reformed Biblical content every Wednesday and Friday.
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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Moorcraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com. Westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.
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We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Doug McMasters here, former Director of Pastoral Correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
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R .C. Sproul, Jr. Welcome back. And before I return to my fascinating conversation with my guest, Larry Herzog, on why he left the Masonic Lodge, the Freemasons, and my co-host, John M. Otis, author of Unveiling Freemasonry's Idolatry, before I return to that conversation, I want to remind you of how urgently Iron Trip and Zion Radio needs your financial help.
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Go to irontripandzionradio .com and click Donate Now or click Support at the top of the page to get a physical mailing address. And last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ-honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where you live in the world, I may be able to help you find a church that's biblically faithful, as I have done with many people in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience spanning the entire globe.
I've helped people all over the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, Mexico, the West Indies, all over the African continent. I have helped people in all 50 states of the United States find churches, and many times within minutes from where they live.
So, no matter where you live, if you are without a biblically faithful church home, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Larry Herzog on his journey out from Freemasonry.
That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, and we have Clay in Moorhead, Minnesota. And Clay asks, forgive me, I think I may have missed the part where you explained exactly what the issues were with Freemasonry that caused you to leave, and what was the reaction of your fellow Masons?
Have they shunned friendship from you to this day? Have they ever threatened you, etc.?
Yes. So, basically, as we talked about before, it's offering up prayers to a generic God. It is religious in nature in that there is a salvific component where you are earning your way to salvation, bettering yourself.
As we mentioned with the Freemasonry specifically, making good men better. But this whole progressive journey of increasingly getting additional light, what they would say, light in Masonry kind of represents additional knowledge and so forth.
And it's simply, it takes the place of your church. It takes the place of Christ. So, those are the main things. And there's all sorts of things you can dig in with the ritual that John has mentioned a lot of it already.
The different aspects that are incompatible with Christianity. But, you know, at its face, you know, if you just want like kind of three points, it's just a generic God, which is not compatible with Christianity.
They use the Bible as a prop, which is not compatible. There's an altar and a chaplain. So, you can't really say it's not a religion because ingrained into the very ritual itself is prayer. And it has an actual chaplain that leads the whole thing from a religious standpoint.
So, that in itself is incompatible with Christianity. As far as fellow lodge members, they understood why it had a problem. Several of them disagreed. You know, several of them are not members of a church and say, okay, I can understand how that would be a conflict.
There really wasn't any sort of threats. You know, maybe 30, 40 years ago, it would be a lot different. Lodges are struggling to survive these days. So, I guess they can say, I can't afford to be as brazen.
And plus, yeah, there are a lot of good guys in that lodge and they form genuine friendships with them. So, you know, I explained to them why I was leaving. And yeah, I personally didn't have an issue.
That doesn't mean that the others wouldn't coming out of lodges. You know, people are different and you have people that are, you know, that are true believers and they may take those oaths seriously and be, you know, combative and so forth.
But yeah, I didn't have.
A problem. Now, one thing I'm puzzled by is that you were already an ordained minister when you entered into the Freemasons. And so, why did it take it two years? And you were even a president,.
If I'm not mistaken, of the local lodge? Yeah. So, a clarification, I think I mentioned this before when we were talking about it. So, when I went from the Free Church to the Nazarene Church, I had just joined.
So, I became ordained as a Nazarene pastor about a year after I joined the.
Lodge. Okay. But you must have been, if you were ordained, you must have been to some degree a knowledgeable Christian, even though I disagree very strenuously with many Nazarene beliefs,.
As even you do now as a Lutheran. Yeah. But you have a too high a bar in what you think is required to become a Nazarene pastor. Okay. I'm trying to be as kind as possible. Like, for instance, the Nazarene pastor that I have.
Featured on my show in debates, even though I disagree with him, he's not an unintelligent man. And I think that he would have, you know, very quickly on, even as just a Christian, let alone a pastor, he would have been saying, wait a minute, this is worshiping a false god, no matter what they tell me.
Now, why did it take two years in your opinion,.
When you reflect back on it? Well, I mean, as I mentioned at the front, um, yeah, I was concerned whether it would be compatible with Christianity and spoke with many lodge members who, um, professed that, that they were evangelical Christians, were members of churches that I felt were solid.
And, uh, you know, that, that calmed my concerns. And, uh, yeah. And then I compartmentalize things myself. I'm like, uh, like you mentioned before, you join a college fraternity and you're like, wow, that was a crazy, silly ritual thing that we went through.
Um, none of those students would be like, you should really dig into what we said during that ritual and see if it's compatible with, uh, you know, our beliefs and so forth. They're just like, this is just a silly thing you go through to become a member of, of the, uh, you know, it's different because, uh, Freemasonry it's more ingrained because of the multiple rituals and so forth.
But, um, you join something, you know, if your initial concerns are, are, are, are met and you feel okay that this doesn't seem like it's going to be concerning. Um, and you start having fun. It takes a lot to kind of wake up.
And that was the case with me. I kind of compartmentalize that here's thing we do to kind of make each other better and so forth. But in your mind, it's like additive to, you know, it's not something you see as competing with, uh, with, uh, your beliefs and your, your, uh, your church membership and so forth.
Um, but obviously, um, I, I came out of that and I certainly do not believe that today. Um, in fact, what I'm trying to kind of, I think, I think, I think I'm communicating it fairly decently. The fact that let's not look at just Freemasonry because there are a lot of organizations that have similar concerns.
And I would say if there's any organization that you join that it has a chaplain, um, you know, why is there a chaplain? Why is there, why are there group specific prayers that are part of this organization?
Um, that, that, uh, you know, again, like the Eagles and the Elks and those so forth. There, there is ritual and there is a chaplain and there are specific prayers that are guided by what their initiations, uh, are looking to extract from the potential members.
So, uh, Chris? Yes. Chris? Yes. Let me interject this,.
Um, because the question was asked, did he, did Larry receive any kickback when he, uh, demented, demented the lodge? Let me tell you what happened to the gentleman when I first started studying this in Coburn, Virginia.
I wanted to go interview a guy. Now, Coburn, Virginia, where I was pastoring in a town of about 2200 in southwest part of Virginia. So, this young man said he began to realize, because he thought God was calling him to the ministry.
He began to realize the things that were going on. He just couldn't do. So, he officially quit. It's called dementing the lodge. Here's what happened the next Tuesday. You know, you ever seen, uh, Mulberry, I mean, uh, I guess it was Andy Griffith's show where Floyd's Barbershop was the center of, uh, where the guys would all get and chew the fat.
Yep. Well, it was a gas station in Coburn, Virginia, and here's what happened to this young man. The two days after he demented, there were six of these men when he came walking up, they all stood up and simultaneously turned their back on him saying, basically, you are finished in this town.
Now, one of the reasons people join the lodge, you know, years past, is a lot of economic advantages. Right. And you're supposed to, you're supposed to give the best business deal to your fellow Mason.
I won't go into a story how justice was actually corrupted, but, uh, that's what happened. They turned his back. And, uh, on your show, I had it when I was in Corpus Christi, I had a young man listen to your show, Chris, call me up.
And he was all shook up. And he asked me, is it satanic? Is it satanic, Pastor Otis? And I said, yes, it is. He said, I want to get out, but I'm afraid for my life. And I said, well, you shouldn't be afraid now.
And he told him, he said, look, I swear, I won't tell anybody anything. I promise you, I won't tell anybody anything. Just let me go. I said, you just need to leave and trust the Lord that he will watch out for you.
I may have shared the gospel with him, but, um, anyway, um, it can have some social ramifications today. That's, that's what happened to the first person I interviewed.
Well, this actually is a great sequel, the question from a listener in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. We have Spencer who says,. I was wondering what the most compelling and attractive reasons people are lured into Freemasonry are.
And I've heard that Freemasons are supposed to help other Freemasons, even at great personal cost to themselves, whenever they discover someone in need is a Freemason. Is that true? I'm assuming that's one of the most compelling factors for someone wanting to join.
Larry?
Yeah. So even in Freemasonry specifically, if a brother is in distress, you're supposed to help them up to the point of, um, if, if the chances are greater that you can help them without losing your own life, you're to help them.
Um, so, but if, if they're in distress and the chances are more likely you would lose your life in trying to help them, then that's the, that's the out. So that's part of, that's part of the ritual and oaths and so forth.
Um, as far as, and I think John deluded to some of this as well, as far as what is the draw that has, has absolutely changed over the years. Certainly like I mentioned, you know, 50 years ago, you know, even then, you know, 40 years ago, whatever, like the eighties when John was talking about, um, addressing, uh, Freemasonry, um, there are a lot of bases and, um, the one aspect that was, uh, that, that was enticing of it is, um, the same sort of, uh, thing that you, you get with, uh, a college fraternity, you know, you got, uh, so maybe they were a member of like Yale, a Yale fraternity, or, you know, in, in law school, they're a member of a specific fraternity.
And then all of a sudden that guy shows up interviewing for the law firm and so forth. You know, there are that connections and that brotherhood and so forth. That's one aspect. Um, certainly, um, that was more prevalent with Freemasons because it was people of every class, you know, people that, that didn't graduate high school, that people that are, have doctorates, you know, all, all different stripes of people were Masons.
Um, so again, 50 plus years ago, it was, uh, very prevalent. So many people were a part of it that, you know, it was, could be synonymous with our structure of a town, even a larger city. Um, but with the resurgence of, uh, you know, with the, uh, different movies and stuff, they're romanticizing it in like the, the early aughts and the early 20 teens.
Um, it was just a curiosity. It's like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And what, you know, what happens there? Um, and then people could research it online because all the information is out there. Um, um, you know, for instance, when I went through, um, the ritual, I wasn't surprised for anything because I looked it up because I don't like that be surprised.
So I looked at him and said, okay, this is exactly what's going to happen. So, and it happened exactly in the, in the lodges I had, had read. So, uh, you know, I didn't announce that to lodge, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's there for everyone to, to look up.
Uh, so, you know, I think it's, it probably has different draws for different people, but that whole connection and advantages, um, not much of a thing these days because the lodges are dying left and right.
There is there, there, they really are like, and, you know, praise God for that. They are, they are fighting stance to stay around because.
It just really isn't a lot of interest these days. Go ahead. Andrew Jack, if I may, a story that brother Joe Moorecraft told me in our, in our presbytery years ago, there were two gentlemen who were Freemasons.
And when they heard that we were in our presbytery, we're going to consider condemning Freemasonry and all that. They said, if you ever do, we will leave this denomination. Wow. Really? And, uh, when we did condemn it, they left and I asked brother Moorecraft, I say, what's going on with these men?
And he says, John, here's the story. One of them, their great great granddaddy was fighting for the Confederacy and was injured at the Battle of Antietam. And he was lying on the battlefield and a Yankee soldier came up to him, was ready to put him out of his misery with a bayonet.
And you can get what's called the Masonic Hill distress sign. Well, he gave a distress somehow or had a ring. And so you're obligated to help him. So that Yankee soldier dragged that Confederate soldier off the field, was injured.
And he says, John, I said, that's the reason why they're Masons. He says, yes, because they wouldn't be here if that Yankee soldier had finished him off. I mean, that's just one of the things.
Wow. I mean, can you imagine how many police officers allowed criminals to get away scot-free over the years because of that? And other equally serious? Go ahead.
One other quick thing. When I was at church, a lady, a member of the church said, John, I want to talk to you. My brother, who's a Freemason, heard that we were studying it, and he was feeling bad. He was on a jury, and a medical doctor was on trial for selling illegal drugs in his practice.
And what he did, he hung the jury is what he did. And he saw somehow it might have been a ring. Somehow the doctor gave way that he was a Mason. And since he's obligated, obligated to help his Masonic brother, he hung the jury.
And he was feeling bad that he had corrupted justice. And later, they will retry the doctor and find him guilty. But he actually perverted justice because he was to protect his Masonic brother.
By the way, a lot of people might not know that the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the Mormons, the founder of that cult, Joseph Smith, was a Freemason. And one of the last things he was doing to prevent himself from being martyred was give the Masonic distress signal from the window of the building that he was in when he was being attacked.
But for some reason, nobody helped him. I don't know if there were no Masons in the crowd, the vigilantes that were going to kill him, or if they were just violating.
Their Masonic oath. I don't know. I saw Larry hold his hands up like a touchdown. That's the distress sign. So I guess all the refs in football are nice ones when they kill a touchdown.
Sometimes they need it, right? I was going to mention the Mormon tie-in. It's even more interesting than his association because of his association. If you've ever seen any of those videos, like secret videos of the temple work, it looks almost exactly like Freemason ritual work.
Yes, I've heard that from James White. Yeah, so if you are or have been a Mason, and then you joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you get to the point of doing the temple work, you'll know it's false, or at least you'll know where that came from because it's very similar.
They even have a lot of the same kind of, I guess, symbols and so forth on what they wear when they do the temple work.
Tom Hanks CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, wants to know, do Masons do similar things that churches and religions do to gain converts or members, such as passing out tracts, going door to door, or do they have television programs and radio programs, etc.?
Well, it's interesting, and that's changed a little over the years. It was always that Freemasonry is that you don't advertise it, that people have to ask you about it. But then that kind of changed to bumper stickers that say, you know, to be one, ask one.
So here, basically, you're still kind of technically saying that you have to ask a Mason about Freemasonry, but now the Masons are telling people, hey, if you want to join, you have to ask. So they don't overtly, you know, kind of say, hey, do you want to join the Lodge?
But I think these days, they actually unofficially will do that. But basically, the official line is still that you have to be asked about it. But it's just like any other club, you know, they, you know, especially now are desperate for members.
But historically, that's been the kind of stance.
We have D. Sean or Dushan in Jersey City, New Jersey, who wants to know, I have noticed that when it comes to Masonic Lodges, there are some that are completely comprised of Black members and those that are completely comprised of White members.
Is this just because of differences in geography and population, like among churches, or is this a designed segregation?
There is a parallel Masonic Lodge structure that was established for Blacks. And both the kind of mainline Masonry and the, I forget what the name is, maybe John would know the name, but it's got, I forget what the name is.
Something, is it print, I think it might be like Prince Hall Masons or something like that. I've seen that name on the internet. I think it's Prince Hall Masons. You can look it up or someone can look it up.
But that, because historically it hadn't been segregated and, you know, based on the times that they were there, you know, typically it was just Whites that were in the Masonic Lodges. So they established, I think it's the Prince Hall Masons, but something similar to that.
And so they still have primarily a lot of majority Blacks in those lodges and majority Whites in the other. However, both of them will accept any races and so forth. That's the official stance of both of them.
And they both recognize each other, which is another thing that's kind of similar to, you know, like Lutheran synods and other congregations and denominations where they will have, you know, where maybe like, you know, a Lutheran synod will have table fellowship with another synod and so forth.
They have recognition of the other. So they see them as valid Masons and they can interact and have fellowship together. So that's something that's really religious as well, or at least has a lot of the trademarks of denominational fellowship.
But is there anything different about, even though they accept each other, is there anything different about the predominantly or exclusively White lodges and the predominantly or exclusively Black lodges?
Anything different about the bylaws or ceremonies?
They're pretty much the same. The ritual, so Masonic ritual does have some differences that are primarily tied to geography and basically just kind of how they kind of came up, you know, pre-internet and everything else.
You know, some of the rituals kind of changed a little bit in different geographies. And for Prince Hall and so forth, those differences in ritual are still tied more to geographical location than it is to either the mainline Masonic Lodge or the Prince Hall Masonic Lodge.
So they're pretty much identical. It's just, these days, they're still, as far as the makeup of the membership, it's still a stark difference, as your email listener actually points out.
Hey, Chris, real quick, real quick. Historically, the reason they're called Free Masons, historically Blacks were not allowed way back years ago, because they were slaves. And if you're a slave, you're not a free man.
So there hasn't been, as it were, a development over.
The years in that. But that's, yeah. Wow. We have Trudy in Edgemoor, Delaware, and Trudy asks, are there any aggressive competition tactics that occur between the competing lodges that you mentioned? That's interesting.
In fact, the Moose Lodge in Carlisle is directly across the street from the Eagles Lodge. So I don't know if they get involved in any competition, but are you aware of anything, Larry? They would be,.
All of the above would encourage multiple memberships, because again, the potential members is thinning. So you have people that are members of all sorts of things, members of the Elks, members of the Masons, and Lions, and all those other things.
So yeah, you have, there is, at least these days, it's very common for people to be a member of multiple Mets fraternities, and you'll have a lot of kind of the same people. And you may even have people who are doing the same jobs.
I know that back in where I was at, the secretary was also the secretary for the American Legion and something else. And I'll mention also, I was a member of the American Legion. I'm a veteran. And even the prayers in the American Legion, they have a chaplain that prays that there is a strong sense of Americanism being their God.
Now, obviously that's a different level of what we're talking about. But I think any organization that you're going to be a part of and so forth, you need to go in with eyes open and you need to be sensitive to those sorts of things, because it creeps in, in all sorts of organizations, things that are going to be an.
Idol to you or potential idol to you. Okay. Let's see here. We have McDermott in Milton, Georgia. And McDermott asks, is there truth in the teaching that I have heard describing Freemasonry that they are, in essence,.
Guilty of Baal worship? I would say, no, in the specific sense of the worshiping that the false God Baal, I would say anything that, you know, that takes a place of Christ, I would categorize more as like anti-Christ.
So, you know, anti-Christ in the more kind of historic Christian sense is anything that usurps or is in place of Christ. So, you know, Lutherans, you know, historically, they saw the Pope as the anti-Christ where, you know, people would say today that certainly a anti-Christ in that he stands in a position that is reserved for Christ.
So if anything that you're worshiping that is in place of Christ, that, you know, that would be something that it would be anti-Christian. So it would be an anti-Christ. So I wouldn't, so definitely not, you know, certainly there could be some crazy lodges or a lot, well, they're not crazy, but a lodge that maybe specifically does that, but that would be, that would be not, that would be not Masonic in the, I guess.
Yes, John. I would like to address that. In my book, I demonstrate exactly, there are several Masonic authorities besides Albert Pike, but one of them was Albert Mackey. And he said, and you can go to my book and you can see the direct quotes from the encyclopedia of Freemasonry our forefathers worshiped on the highest hills in Israel.
In other words, he venerates bell worship. That's what they were doing. And then our Masonry committee that I was on, they finally, I was concerned at one point whether the other men were going to come up with a strong biblical position.
And so I appealed to my Old Testament professor, you know, here's what they said. Here are their quotes. Mackey and others says, our forefathers, the ancient mystery religions are the historical ancestor to Freemasonry.
So yes, our fathers worshiped on the highest hills. And in the lodge, Mackey says, the way you go about in the lodge, you're following the sun. So they're engaged in sun worship. It's pretty devastating.
It's definitely false worship. And the only thing I would say.
In response is Mackey and Pike, all their teachings are tied to Scottish Rite, which builds itself as an expansion and further explanation of what happens in the lodge. There are plenty of Masons that aren't part of the Scottish Rite and would reject that because they would say that's the line they draw.
And they think that goes beyond what the Blue Lodge actually believes. But it doesn't matter. It's all false worship. It's all Christless worship. So it is all idolatry. So, you know, you can dig into the rituals, you can dig into what Scottish Rite teaches or what those degrees teach.
At the end of the day, it is incompatible with Christianity, regardless of, you know, how aberrant you think it is. It is aberrant enough that it is religious and excludes Christ.
But we have to go to our final…. Well, you know, besides Scottish Rite Masonry, the other major branch of Freemasonry in the United States is York Rite Masonry. And York Rite Masonry is as damaging as Scottish Rite.
In fact, in some areas, it's even more gruesome in its ritual, drinking blood, imitating drinking blood out of a skull. So York Rite Masonry is no different than Scottish Rite Masonry.
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We have Jud in Harker Heights, Texas, and Jud says, I remember seeing many years ago a former Freemason on the John Ankerberg Show, and he was giving the secrets and insights of the Masonic Lodge, including the name of a secret god that they worshipped called Jabulon, which is a three-part name—Jah, representing Yahweh, the Hebrew biblical god, Bol, representing Baal, the ancient Canaanite-Phoenician deity, and An, representing Osiris, the ancient Egyptian god.
And I was wondering if this is true, and do Masons admit.
This? Larry, we'll start with you. Yeah, that wouldn't be part of the Blue Lodge ritual at all. I didn't go through all the Scottish Rites. I wouldn't know Scottish or York Rite. It might be part of an independent organization.
It wouldn't surprise me, but the basic Blue Lodge masonry, that's not part of their ritual at all.
Marc Thiessen. Okay, and John? John Dickerson I'd like to add to that. Yes, it is part of the York Rite masonry. It's part of the Royal Arch degree. They form the Royal Arch and a candidate goes through, and they have to recite Jabulon, Jabulon.
They take turns. That is done in the Royal Arch degree of York Rite masonry. And, by the way, I saw that originally with John Ankerberg, and you know what happened when that guy did that? There were so many Masons that called in, and the radio station or the TV station were getting threats, physical threats, that they had to cut the program off in the Chattanooga area.
It was pretty serious. Marc Thiessen. Wow.
John Dickerson. That actually happened. Marc Thiessen. So this is not something that Masons, or at least in the York Lodge, want to be...they don't want it to be publicly known that they do.
That then. It's all out there now, isn't it? John Dickerson.
I mean, I learned about it because when I got all the material from Masonic publishing houses, and in my book, I will just say this, anybody wants a thorough presentation, go ahead and get my book. You can get it on Amazon.
And I've got illustrations of all the rituals. I got an illustration of that very thing in the Royal Archdegree, where they're chanting Jah Mulan. Marc Thiessen.
And that is Unveiling Freemasonry's Idolatry by John Marshall Otis, O-T-I-S. Well, I'm going to give each of you a couple of minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air.
We'll start with you, John.
Don't join the Lodge, or if you're apart, get out. And so, yes, it is Just... Leave that. It has all worked salvation thoroughly, and so it is...
That's all. I'll leave it like that. Okay, and by the way, John, what is the website that lets our listeners know about your evangelistic efforts on college campuses? John Marshall.
Well, it's only one campus, University of Georgia, but it's called TriumphantGospelMinistries .com. Marc Thiessen.
TriumphantGospelMinistries .com. John Marshall.
Yes, and I do open-air gospel preaching at the Student Center at the University of Georgia, and one-on-one evangelism. And by the way, Chris, it's going very well.
Marc Thiessen Great. And Larry Herzog, please summarize in several minutes what you most want etched.
Yes. So, right. So, I would agree with everything that John has said, and I would concur that the Freemasonry membership is not compatible with Christianity. The main thing I would say is, but I would also say that let's not get tunnel-visioned on just Freemasonry, because there are a lot of other organizations that have similar troubling practices and that are similarly not compatible with Christianity.
So, I would say don't get so hyper-focused on that to the exclusion of these other organizations that are also troubling to Christian or not compatible with Christianity. So, that would be what I would say.
Also, I'm actually finishing up an essay entitled The Other Lodges that kind of hammers that home, kind of pointing out the other organizations and so forth that are similarly incompatible, and that will be on my website probably before the end of the weekend.
And that my website is larryherzogjr .com, larryherzogjr .com. So, if you're interested in reading that when it comes out, that'll be out before the end of the weekend.
Okay. Can you quickly list some of those other lodges?
Yeah. So, I mentioned some of them, the Elks Lodge and the Moose Lodge and the Eagles. Those are kind of three more notable ones. I'll let you go to that and check out the essay for some of the kind of more, I guess, ones that aren't as popular and as known.
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I want to thank Larry Herzog Jr. for being an excellent guest again, and I want to thank my dear friend John Otis for being a wonderful co-host, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want each and every one of you to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
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