August 19, 2025 Show with Jerry Duckworth on “7 Points of Calvinism”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of August 2025.

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And just when we Calvinists thought that Arminians hated us enough with five points of Calvinism, we have a guest who is adding two more points to even further annoy them.

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I know that that's not really his goal. We have today Jerry Duckworth going to talk about his book,

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The Seven Points of Calvinism. And Jerry is an author and prison minister with Christ Song Ministry.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Duckworth.

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Yes, sir. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I've listened to your stuff quite a bit, and I'm really excited.

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So it's an honor. Thank you. Well, it's an honor to have you on the program today. And one of the things that I already mentioned to you that is quite a matter of God's providence that when

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I booked this interview with you, I did not even know of your affiliation with Christ Song Ministry, the prison ministry founded by Bobby and Nan McGee.

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And it just so happens that when I was a resident at Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina, due to an addiction to alcohol a number of years ago,

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I went to Boone, North Carolina, to sign myself into Hebron Colony, which is the oldest continually running drug addiction and recovery ministry, drug and alcohol addiction and recovery ministry in the

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United States. And one of those days while there,

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Bobby and Nan performed for us. And I eventually, when

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I left that place after graduating successfully, I relaunched my radio program and had the opportunity to interview

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Bobby McGee on the program. And if anybody who's listening wants to hear that interview, that past program, all you got to do is go to www .irontrapandzioneradio

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.com and type in the search engine McGee, M -C -G -E -E, and you will see the link to listen to that recording.

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Can you tell us, in your own words, something about Christ Song Ministry, where you serve as a minister, a prison minister with this organization?

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Yes. So what we like to do, we've been in prisons all across the country.

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I mainly focus in North Carolina, where I reside. What we like to do is go in with music.

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My wife, she's a really great singer and can play the guitar, so she'll sing. We'll have a full service for them, and I'll preach.

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Then I like to stay afterwards and just minister to them a little bit, get to know the guys and encourage them in the

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Lord. And then provide them places where they can reach out and get materials and things like that.

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So that's what we do. Amen. Do you have a website that you can announce?

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I think it's just Christ Song Ministries. Actually, I looked at it earlier, and it's ministry singular,

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Christ Song Ministry. I'm looking it up right now, and the website is

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ChristSongMinistry .org. Well, as you know, as I've informed you already, before the program, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, starting with giving us a description of the religious atmosphere in which you were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and eventually saved you.

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So I grew up in a, I guess you would say a nominal Christian home.

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We was attending church quite a bit. However, we would often skip church for AAU basketball games and things like that.

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Despite making multiple professions of faith as a child, nothing actually took.

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You know, I've said the sinner's prayer hundreds of times, went through the ABCs of salvation, was baptized multiple times, but there was no actual change that took place in my life.

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You were baptized multiple times? Oh, yes. In one service?

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In one service? Well, not in one service, but every time

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I made a profession, I was baptized again. I would say I at least have been baptized four times.

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Wow. Okay. Yeah. You know, we're in more general

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Baptist churches and stuff like that. Basically, during middle school,

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I just kind of went my own way. Same in high school, and then eventually got into drugs.

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Basically, I was addicted to every drug that you could imagine, along with alcohol.

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I ended up joining a gang and all kinds of craziness. At one point,

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I was looking at five to seven years for armed robbery, but glory to God, I didn't have to do that. But I did have to do a little bit of prison time.

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The last time that I was in there, I actually got into a fight with someone and was thrown into the isolation cell.

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While I was there, someone snuck me a book. That book shared the gospel with me.

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Basically, what opened my eyes to make me realize that I was lost was I read where the

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Bible says, if your eye offends you, pluck it out. Better to go to heaven with one eye than to hell with two, essentially.

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I realized I had never truly approached repentance in that fashion. God used that to open my eyes and help me realize that I was lost.

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At that moment, I felt as if the ground was going to open up and just swallow me.

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I would plummet into the depths of hell and burn for all eternity. But then this guard passed by who

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I knew was a Christian. I just said, what must I do to be saved? He talked to me and ministered to me.

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I prayed and asked the Lord to forgive me. Instantly, I felt completely different.

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Since then, my life has been radically changed. I went to Haiti for a little bit as a missionary for about six months.

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I went to Fruitland Baptist Bible College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. I'm going there for my

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MDiv now. Now I'm a pastoral intern for Faith Presbyterian Church.

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My life is just 100 % different. Praise God for that. Tell us about how you came to discover and embrace the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

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When I first got out of prison, I had this mindset of,

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I'm going to delete my Facebook, start a new one and only add Christians. One of the individuals that I added said, hey man, are you a

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Calvinist? I said, brother, I don't even know what that means. That led me to exploring it a little bit.

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Then I heard a sermon put out by Jesse Carr. That sermon basically walked through the golden chain of redemption and touched on Romans 9.

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Next thing you know, I'm a Calvinist. Then I was listening to Paul Washer, John MacArthur, and stuff like that and realizing, man,

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I've never heard Bible teaching like this before. I need some more of that. Where can

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I get it? Next thing you know, I'm all weird beard reformed.

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You said just moments ago that you're a member of a Presbyterian congregation.

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Tell us about that congregation. Faith Presbyterian Church is located in Morganton, North Carolina.

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Our lead pastors are Mike Thompson and Daniel Beck.

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Super great congregation. They have helped me and my family immensely.

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I have a wife and three kids, all of them in pull -ups or diapers.

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Three and below. They have really helped me to maintain my sanity during this time and juggling all the other things that I'm doing as well.

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This Presbyterian congregation, is it in a particular denomination, PCA, OPC?

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Oh, yes, the PCA. Okay. Definitely not the PCUSA, that's for sure.

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Well, we are now at the point where you have felt compelled to write a book that we are discussing today.

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You have written other books. First of all, tell us some of the other books that you have in print. The first book that I ever wrote was

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From Darkness to Light. The Intricacies of the Gospel Explained in a

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Succinct Manner in Order to Bring About the Conversion of Souls. Ridiculous subtitle, I know, but I love the

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Puritans, so that was kind of a little shout out to them. Basically, I wrote that little booklet to just share the simple gospel with people, penal substitutionary atonement, the great exchange, why we need salvation and all that.

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The reason that I felt compelled to do that was because the book that was given to me, that led me to Christ, that God used to open my eyes, was written by Ellen White, The Seventh -day

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Adventist. There was a lot of bad stuff in it. While God used it to cause me to be born again,

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I left a little confused, so I wanted to write a booklet that wouldn't leave people confused.

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Then I wrote Whatever It Takes, a Biblical Approach to Recovery. It's just a little 30 -day devotional that I promise, if you will do it, you will be sober, if you will do everything that it says in there.

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And then, because I got online and I was realizing that some of our

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Calvinist brothers are not accurately representing the doctrines of grace and explaining them, and neither are our opponents,

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I felt compelled to write the book The Seven Points of Calvinism. Okay, and the five points of Calvinism, which have their origins in the

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Canons of Dort, a lot of people mistakenly believe that John Calvin himself wrote the five points of Calvinism in the acronym

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TULIP that we have today, that's very popular amongst the Reformed Christians. But John Calvin did not write the five points of Calvinism, although he believed in all five points.

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They were later articulated in the 17th century in the

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Canons of Dort, I should say.

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And they are, for those of you who are unaware, they are in the acronym

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TULIP, which stands for T for Total Depravity, U for Unconditional Election, L for Limited Atonement, which a lot of people prefer to call

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Definite Atonement or Particular Redemption, I for Irresistible Grace, and P for Perseverance and Preservation of the

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Saints. And what is it about the traditional

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TULIP, five points of Calvinism, that you obviously agree with, but you felt, or should

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I say you believed, we Reformed people aren't supposed to feel, you believed were inadequate?

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Well, not that I necessarily felt that they were inadequate. Just isolated to those five points.

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I mean, there needed to be more clarification in your mind. Right, right, right.

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Well, I am a huge fan, I guess you would say, of Dr.

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James White. He has helped me tremendously. And as I listened to the dividing line over the years, particularly

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Radio Free Geneva, which I listened to nearly every single night that I was cooking bagels at Joey's New York Bagels.

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And by the way, folks, just to let our listeners quickly know, Joey's New York Bagels is owned by a very dear friend of mine,

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Joe Scarlata, who was saved in the same church where I was saved in the 1980s.

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Well, actually, let me take that back. I don't know if Joey was saved there, but he wound up becoming a member there.

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He may have been saved in another church before that, but it was at one time

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island. And then we merged with First Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island, and we became

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Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, eventually selling our Amityville facilities and being located in Merrick.

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But I have had the privilege of remaining in contact with Joe Scarlata and a couple of years ago had the privilege while at a

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Bible conference in North Carolina, was treated to a wonderful time of lunch and fellowship with Joe.

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But anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there so people will see the added providence involved in this.

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Oh, yeah, and I want to throw this in, too. If you're in Hendersonville, North Carolina, you better stop by Joey's New York Bagels because you can taste what good bagels are like.

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Yeah, I actually miss good bagels myself being here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. But continue,

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I interrupted you, I'm sorry. No worries. So as I was cooking the bagels,

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I would listen to The Divided Line and Radio Free Geneva. And I would often hear

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Dr. White say that all of TULIP is grounded in God's sovereignty and it really should be stulip.

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And as I was writing the book, I was just going to make it tulips, you know, with the S on the end.

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That's much better sounding. It is, it is. But then I was like, no, because I feel like I need to start with God's sovereignty like the

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Bible does. It starts with God and goes down to man. And so I started,

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I added the S tulip. And then I often heard people getting upset about the doctrine of reprobation.

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And so I made that the seventh point. Now, look, I know that reprobation is technically just the flip side of election.

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You know, it's predation mixed with condemnation. God passes by the reprobate and he decrees to condemn them for the sin that they will commit.

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But nonetheless, I felt that it ought to be an extra point because people often confuse it with equal ultimacy and believe that we think that God forces people to hell.

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And I wanted to clarify, no, we do hold to double predestination, but not equal ultimacy.

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And so it is stulip are sovereignty, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints and reprobation.

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And I end the book with a chapter on humble Calvinism. Because if you're not humble, then you're not really a

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Calvinist. Because you may be a Calvinist intellectually, but not in your heart. And that's an issue.

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And obviously there are definitions required here because we do have listeners on occasion that are new to the faith.

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We have listeners that are not at all Reformed. We have listeners that are not even

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Christian on occasion that listen. I've been contacted by Muslims and Orthodox Jews on a rare occasion.

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But so let's go back to the automatic erroneous assumption that you were mentioning.

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Even though they might not use the term equal ultimacy, and they might not know what that is, the way that they describe our beliefs in protest is they act as if man is morally neutral and that God either forces them to be saved and regenerate and so on and born again, or he forces them to be evil.

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And they would not otherwise be evil if God had not intervened supernaturally and made them so.

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Am I adequately, in your understanding, giving an accurate, simple explanation of equal ultimacy?

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Yeah, exactly. That God works in the same way to save the elect as he does to damn the reprobate.

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Basically, we believe that God actively works to cause the sinner who is dead in his trespasses and sins to be born again.

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And they would draw a straight line across from that and say that God works fresh unbelief into the heart of man.

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And I'm saying, no, he doesn't do that. He doesn't need to do that because mankind is totally depraved.

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Yeah, well, obviously, the assumption that we believe in equal ultimacy is false.

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Could you speak for a minute? I'm getting a listener complaining that you're not audible, and I have a feeling that the listener is wrong.

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Because I can hear you loud and clear. Can you say something? Yes. I'm hoping that my audio is well, but perhaps…

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Well, now the listener is saying that the problem is on her end.

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So this is really a lot of the hatred of Calvinism that stems from total misunderstandings of what it is, which you just mentioned, one of these misunderstandings.

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And the… I'm sorry, I'm getting… I'm constantly getting texted by somebody who is saying that you were cutting in and out, and I don't think we are.

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I think that the problem is still on their end. It seems that many people who are enemies of Calvinism are not reading, or at least thoroughly reading, those who are historically sound

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Calvinists, biblically Orthodox, theologically Reformed Christians.

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They are reading solely, it seems, the enemies of Calvinism who always slander and give gross or invalid descriptions of what we believe.

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And it seems that every time I've had a dispute with an anti -Calvinist and have been involved in debates featuring

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries defending what we believe, his opponents will very often bring up charges against what we believe that reveal complete ignorance of the truths of Calvinism.

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So, hopefully, if anything will be accomplished by this, people will start to go to the sources.

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Now, obviously, we believe our teachings, our beliefs, are thoroughly biblical, and that is where the origins of our views and beliefs lie, even in our confessions of faith.

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There is clear notation that the confessions are not on par with the inerrant

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God -breathed Word. They are merely a summary and explanation of what we believe the

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Bible teaches. So, this would— One of the reasons

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I've done debates, that I've hosted and orchestrated debates going back to 1996, is that people just need to hear from a thoroughly knowledgeable expert like Dr.

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James R. White what we as Reformed Christians actually believe.

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So, I'm assuming that is the same kind of thing that you have faced over the years, when you get involved in disputes with those that hate what we believe.

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And it seems that there are very few people who have a neutral attitude towards this.

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Either they love Calvinism, or they absolutely despise it.

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And those that may claim neutrality, when you start digging a little bit and push them a little bit, the claws come out.

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Yeah, yeah. Explain your own situation in regard to polemics and dealing with people outside of the

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Reformed faith. Yeah, and I agree 100%.

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That's one of the reasons for writing this book, is to help clarify what we believe.

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And I was hoping that the influence that I have, as small as it may be, in my circle here in Morganton and on my

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YouTube channel, The Twitchy Theologian, though my circle may be small, I could help possibly enlighten folks as to what we actually believe.

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And I absolutely love debates. So, if there was anyone who wanted to debate this particular topic,

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I would absolutely love it. There's a reason that I call myself Family Dollar James White. That's because, like Uncle Jimmy, as I like to call him,

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I enjoy debates and I want to get better in that sphere. So, consider this an open challenge.

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Well, we are going to our And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

28:29

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

28:34

Let's say you are a member of a church and you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this point.

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Or, you're even the pastor of a church and you disagree with the majority of you in that congregation.

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You might even disagree with your own elders or your denomination or something. Well, we understand that reasons like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but if you're asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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Don't go away, now we're going to hear, first of all, from the aforementioned

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries with an exciting word about an event where he is speaking right here in South Central Pennsylvania.

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Don't go away, we'll be right back. James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this

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September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania and Chris Harnson has lined up for me.

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On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m., I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre -Pastor's

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Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inherent Word of God. I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Pre -Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com that's ironsharpensironradio .com

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For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org

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that's trbccarlisle .org God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Simon O'Mahoney, Pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the

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Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our

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Triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven, an Orthodox Christian Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

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I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my long time friend and brother,

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is now shipping worldwide. We're now back with Jerry Duckworth, author of Seven Points of Calvinism, the twitchy edition, which reminds me that you are also the host of a

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YouTube channel, The Twitchy Theologian. Why don't you tell our listeners about that? Yes, sir, sure will.

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A buddy of mine named Nick Herring kept telling me, Jerry, you need to make a YouTube channel.

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And I said, no, man, I'm not one of those YouTubers. I love interacting face to face in the local church.

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And he was like, no, man, just do it. Trust me, it'll be great. And so I did. And it just happened to work out.

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What really made me blow up was I had a discussion with Dr. Layton Flowers and attempted to correct some of his provisionist errors.

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Yeah, provisionist for lack or for those of you who aren't familiar with that term, that's that's a fairly new term, isn't it?

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Developed by Armenians who just wanted a different way of identifying themselves? Essentially, pretty much it's definitely it's a form of synergism, like that salvation is not 100 percent of the

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Lord, but man has to do something. You know, God does his 99 percent and man has to do his 100 percent by believing in order to become elect is essentially how they would say it, that they wouldn't want to frame it that way.

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And also, I thought that our listeners should know that the preface of Seven Points of Calvinism was written by Jeremiah Nortier, who we've had on this program a number of times, including twice to debate a

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Nazarene pastor, Jared K. Henry. The first time he did a two -day debate with Pastor Henry on the ordination of women, which

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Pastor Jeremiah Nortier opposes. And the second time, the second two -day debate with Pastor Henry was on the theme

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Can Christians be totally free from known sin? And in this life, again,

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Pastor Jeremiah Nortier opposed that thesis, and Jared K. Henry was affirming it.

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But that should interest a number of you who know and love the ministry of Jeremiah Nortier.

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And you mentioned a couple of $50 words there, synergism and monergism.

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And we who are Reformed identify ourselves as monergists, and we believe that is very important.

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Can you break down the differences between the two, and why is it important to begin with?

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Certainly, and thank you for bringing up that Jeremiah Nortier, the apologetic dog, wrote the preface because he's been like a mentor to me, and every debate that I have,

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I call him up, and I try to spend about an hour on the phone with him, just picking his brain and his view and his take on things, and so I'm grateful to him.

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But to define synergism and monergism, essentially, monergism says that salvation is totally 100 % of the

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Lord, that we don't believe to be born again, but we are born again in order to believe, because see, as Calvinist reformed folks, we believe that mankind are dead in their trespasses and sins, and I can go to a graveyard, and I can say, get up, and I'll give you a million dollars, and nobody's moving, dude.

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But God, that's how we are, but God breathes the breath of life into us, causes us to be born again, at which point we do believe, and every aspect of salvation, from regeneration, to even us placing our faith in Christ, because faith is a gift to our sanctification and our glorification, all is brought about by the sovereign work of God.

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Now, in contrast, synergism states that there is a hypothetical atonement, a potential salvation to all people, but you must, of your own free will, put your faith in Jesus.

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And when you do, then you're saved.

41:13

So it's basically the former synergism is God does all the work, the latter is

41:21

God does 99 % of the work, and man does 1%. And it's important because Scripture constantly says salvation is of the

41:29

Lord, 1 Corinthians 1, 26 -31 says that, you know, he who boasts in the

41:35

Lord that he chose the weak and the foolish things of this earth to basically make the wise look foolish.

41:45

And so it's important that we recognize that, and when we do, it leads to a greater gratitude, realizing that we are not worthy, the only thing we contributed to our salvation was the sin that made it necessary,

41:59

Jonathan Edwards said, and it also increases our humility, recognizing that I am not more spiritual or intelligent than the man who rejects

42:08

Jesus. It's all of grace. Yeah, the rejecter of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology, or Sovereign Grace, even though they would never want to admit this necessarily, they, really, if they're going to be logically consistent, they, when asked why did you come to have faith in Jesus Christ, and not your next door neighbor, and your next door neighbor might be a very sweet, moral, old lady who is very benevolent and hospitable and seems to have a tender, compassionate heart, and yet she rejects

43:01

Jesus Christ. Either she just is agnostic or atheist, or she might be in a false religion.

43:07

And they would have to, if they're going to be logically consistent with their own theology, they would have to think that either they were wiser than that neighbor, or more religious, more theologically astute, more humble, more aware of their own sin.

43:31

I mean, you could go on and on and on with the things that would have to be present in the believer to lead them to heaven if you reject the fact that it is

43:46

God who chooses, and it is God who gives the gift of faith to those He chooses.

43:53

And that is, I think, a very key flaw in non -Reformed and anti -Reformed theology, is that it's very inconsistent.

44:07

Like, for instance, I doubt you will have many, if any,

44:14

Arminians say that they don't give 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory to Jesus Christ for their salvation.

44:24

But, if you examine what they believe, they can't, really, because there's something about them that, before they were even born again by the grace of God, summoned up a faith that pleased

44:45

God, even though the Scriptures are clear that no man can please God in the flesh. So, over and over again, the

44:54

Arminian, or the non -Calvinist, is inconsistent, even with a term like substitutionary atonement.

45:03

Today, you will frequently hear Arminians and other non -Calvinists say that Christ died as our substitute, but they can't really say, they can't believe that logically and consistently, because how could anybody go to hell if he was the substitute for every single human?

45:20

Am I making sense? Oh, absolutely, that reminds me of John Owen's argument that is used in my book.

45:30

And, you know, they wouldn't want to say that they contribute anything to their salvation.

45:37

They would say salvation is all of the Lord, but when you press them, that's not the case. And, you can often hear sermons by synergistic pastors that just make it clear.

45:48

They'll say, God gets a vote, the devil gets a vote, and you are the deciding vote. And that's like, man, that's putting a lot of power in the free will of man, but we see it differently.

45:59

We see it that this is no democracy. Christ is king, and as sovereign of this earth, what he says goes, and he will save his sheep.

46:10

His sheep will hear his voice, and they will follow. And, another thing that I have encountered, which

46:17

I'm wondering if you have as well, at its core, the hatred of Calvinism that Arminians and non -Calvinists very often have, is rooted in this idea that our

46:36

God is unfair. And they somehow believe it is more fair for God to give everybody this mandate that you must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved and inherit eternal life, and yet they believe falsely that every single person, therefore, has that equal ability and opportunity to do so.

47:15

And one thing that disproves that immediately is that for thousands of years, millions of people on this planet never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, never even heard about Jesus Christ to begin with, and even to this day, there are unevangelized people in different parts of the world.

47:36

So that backs people into the corner and has led to things like second chances for salvation after death, postmortem salvation opportunities and stuff.

47:49

But have you encountered that yourself, that that is really at the core of their hatred is that their idea is that our

47:56

God is unfair and then therefore unjust? That is something that I've encountered quite a bit.

48:06

I always respond, listen, you don't want fair. You don't want justice.

48:12

If you get justice, we all go to hell. What you want is grace.

48:18

Grace is unmerited favor. We don't merit grace by believing the gospel.

48:24

We get grace and that is why we believe the gospel. Their argument that the

48:31

Calvinistic God is unfair presupposes that we all deserve grace. But if you truly look at the way mankind is viewed in scripture, we are viewed as totally depraved sinners, that every aspect of our being is affected by sin.

48:51

We are at enmity with God. No one seeks after God. Their tongue, their throat is open graves with the venom of asps coming from their lips.

49:03

That's how mankind is seen. None of us deserve grace. When we get that through our head, that objection dissolves like Kool -Aid in my water.

49:20

But just being a monarchist, though, does not mean that you are genuinely

49:29

Christian or have a true understanding of the gospel, because full -blown universalists, they remove man's part in salvation other than being the recipients of salvation.

49:43

So far, so as to believe that there will be no individual suffering in hell after death.

49:54

They believe Hitler's going to be in heaven. They believe Pol Pot's going to be in heaven.

49:59

Stalin's going to be in heaven. Every serial killer that ever lived will be in heaven. And depending upon what universalists you're speaking with, they may even believe

50:11

Satan himself and his devils will be in heaven. So just removing man and his will and his works as a contribution to their regeneration and their salvation is not enough for a sound theology, am

50:31

I right? Oh, absolutely. Revelation talks about people being cast into the lake of fire.

50:38

Jesus talks about people being in hell. And clearly Romans 10 and John 3 make it clear that you must believe the gospel to be saved.

50:50

The thing that it comes down to between conservative Christians, and I do believe that Armenians and other synagogues are my brothers.

51:00

The thing that we must determine is why does one believe? Do we believe because it's an act of my volition?

51:12

Or do we believe because God sovereignly worked in our hearts to cause us to be born again, to give us a new heart that causes us to walk in his ways, and he gives us the gift of faith and grants us repentance and that is why we believe.

51:28

And just so you guys know, I was simply alluding to scripture that entire time.

51:35

The gift of faith, granting repentance, all of this is just scriptural language.

51:41

And so that's why I think Calvinism isn't really Calvinism. It's Pauline soteriology, it's

51:48

Jesus' soteriology, it's their doctrine of salvation, it's biblical. Amen.

51:55

Yes, there was somebody who posted a slanderous meme that said the

52:03

Bible will never bring a person to believe in Calvinism.

52:08

And I told them that that was a slander and a lie, because the only reason, apart from the work of the

52:16

Holy Spirit, of course, but the only reason I, in an earthly sense, came to believe in Calvinism after I was saved, because I was militantly opposed to it in ignorance.

52:32

I was militantly opposed to the idea until I read

52:39

George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, and it was only George Whitefield's biblical arguments that the

52:48

Lord used to open my eyes, because I didn't know who George Whitefield was. I could care less what George Whitefield believed, could care less what

52:55

John Calvin believed, couldn't care less what

53:01

Charles Adams Spurgeon believed, John Knox, and we could go on and on, because I didn't know who any of those people were at that point in my life.

53:10

But we have to go to our first, I'm sorry, not our first, our midway commercial break. If you have a question for Jerry Duckworth, submit it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

53:23

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

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01:09:36

Seven Points of Calvinism, and give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:09:42

And before we go to any listener questions, Jerry, I wanted to have you clarify a couple of things.

01:09:50

Once again, to repeat what we were saying earlier, for those of you who are wondering, what are these two extra points that Jerry wants to add to the tulip, the sovereignty of God and also the doctrine of reprobation?

01:10:11

These are not new ideas of Jerry's, nor is he claiming that. He is just saying that it should be a part of the easily rememberable summary of the doctrines of sovereign grace.

01:10:26

Am I right here, Jerry? Absolutely. And the extra two would be sovereignty and reprobation.

01:10:36

Sovereignty because all of tulip really is grounded in that and reprobation just because it needs to be talked about more.

01:10:44

It is just the flip side of election. So technically there's probably still six points, but the seven points of Calvinism sounds cooler.

01:10:55

And a lot of Christians claim to believe in the sovereignty of God. You will hear even non -Christians refer to disastrous weather as, you know, acts of God.

01:11:16

You will have people at funerals who are not Reformed say that it was

01:11:24

Bill's time. You know, with insinuations that God was in control over when that person departed this earth down to the day and hour and therefore was sovereign over that.

01:11:41

But what the anti -Calvinist hates the notion of is our belief that God is sovereign over salvation.

01:11:51

Isn't that really the issue that drives them nuts? Absolutely.

01:11:57

And I think when it boils down to it, we have two different views or two different definitions of sovereignty.

01:12:06

We Calvinists are defining sovereignty differently than the non -Calvinists.

01:12:12

And allow me a moment to explain. They would say that God is a king in the same way that we would say

01:12:19

God is a king. However, they believe that God's kingly decrees can can can be thwarted.

01:12:27

And we're saying, no, when he as king rules, he determines whatsoever comes to pass.

01:12:36

Now, that does come down to his prescriptive will, which is him saying thou shalt not kill.

01:12:42

But then his decreed of will, which says Christ will be killed.

01:12:48

Acts chapter four, the crucifixion of the sinless son of God was predestined.

01:12:55

We see that. On one hand, his will is violated in that they are violating the commands of God to not murder.

01:13:08

But we're seeing that ultimately God's will, his decree is not thwarted because they are doing exactly what

01:13:17

God planned for them to do. And so when we're defining when Calvinists are defining sovereignty, we're saying that this ruler ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

01:13:28

He determines what's going to happen in history. He's wrote history in his book.

01:13:33

That's why history is his story. And everything that happens in time is a part of his perfect plan.

01:13:42

Amen. Well, we have a listener. We have

01:13:49

Philomena in Georgia, Vermont. And Philomena says,

01:13:56

I have two questions. And the first question is, in case

01:14:02

I missed it, I don't remember you ever explaining why you call your

01:14:07

YouTube channel twitchy. We'll start with that one. Well, I call myself the twitchy theologian because I have

01:14:17

Tourette's syndrome. Really? Yep. I just twitch and pop, and that's why

01:14:24

I occasionally mute myself because I go. Really? I never even noticed you doing anything like that.

01:14:31

I'm really good at hiding it. And I figured, look, they're going to see my eyes do some crazy things and my face do some weird tics.

01:14:39

So I better just go ahead and embrace it. Right. And is it one of the forms of Tourette's where you blurt out profanity and things like that?

01:14:50

Thankfully, I do not do that. It would be really hard for me to preach if I did. Yeah, it would.

01:14:58

Do you unintentionally, involuntarily blurt out anything? No, it's more of...

01:15:06

Physical movements? It's more of motor tics, but also there's vocal tics, but it's not words.

01:15:13

It's more like just clicking and popping with my mouth. Okay. Philomena now asks,

01:15:21

Why is it that the L in TULIP, Limited Atonement, seems to be the most hated of all

01:15:30

Calvinist teachings? I think that it just comes from people having a huge misunderstanding on what world means.

01:15:41

A world has been taught for years as...

01:15:46

You mean God so loved the world? Is that what you're referring to? Right. Exactly. And then 1

01:15:53

John 2 too, He's not only the propitiation for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

01:15:59

And people have often misunderstood that verse and took world to mean every single person at every single time, without exception.

01:16:09

But John defines world numerous different ways. Kosmos is what the Greek is, and it's defined,

01:16:15

I think, eight different ways. It has a large semantic range. And it basically often just means

01:16:21

Jews and Gentiles. But if we look in the book of Revelation, he says that Jesus purchased people for himself out of or from every single tribe, tongue, language, and nation.

01:16:33

So that's how John defines world. And then if we go to 2 Corinthians 5 .21, He made him who knew no sin to be sin.

01:16:41

There's an expiation there where our sin is taken off of us and placed onto Christ, in order that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

01:16:53

So we see the great exchange. And if the first one occurs, if Christ has been made sin on our behalf, then the result of that is that we become the righteousness of God in him.

01:17:05

Yes, and the non - or anti -Calvinist does not remain consistent in the way that they interpret words in the

01:17:18

Bible. They don't always have a wooden literal interpretation for world and all.

01:17:28

And like, for instance, in Mark 1 .5, we read that, and all the country of Judea was going out to him and all the people of Jerusalem, and they were being baptized by him in the

01:17:48

Jordan River, confessing their sins. And there is no sound

01:17:56

Christian, whether they are Arminian or Calvinist or otherwise, who believes it was every human being in Judea and Jerusalem.

01:18:08

So they violate their own preconceived notions all the time.

01:18:19

Okay, well, thank you, Philomena. And you have also—well, you have won.

01:18:25

You're the first winner of 7 Points of Calvinism by Jerry Duckworth. And please make sure you give us your full name and mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:18:42

can ship that book out to you. Let us know if you are a first -time questioner as well, because first -time questioners will also receive a free

01:18:57

New American Standard Bible. So thanks a lot for joining us on the program.

01:19:03

And there is also apprehension by non -Calvinists over the word limited in limited atonement.

01:19:12

That's why there are many Calvinists throughout history who preferred, as we already mentioned, the terms definite atonement or particular redemption, because over and over and over again, people are thinking we are saying that God's power is limited and that the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is somehow too weak to save everyone.

01:19:39

And that's not what we're teaching. We're saying—in fact, it was Charles Spurgeon, and I don't have the quote right in front of me, but Charles Spurgeon, who many anti -Calvinist fundamentalists love as a hero,

01:19:55

Charles Adams Spurgeon, who was a thoroughgoing Calvinist, whether they like it or not or know it or not, he said that it is the

01:20:03

Arminian who truly has a limited atonement because it's limited in its power. And we who are

01:20:10

Calvinists, like Charles Spurgeon, believe that it is unlimited, the atonement that is, is unlimited in its power and only limited in its scope.

01:20:20

It's only limited to the number of people for whom it is intended, and therefore, since that atonement is applied to them, it is fully powerful and saves everyone for whom it was intended.

01:20:38

It redeems every single person for whom Christ died. Am I right? You want to add anything to that?

01:20:46

Absolutely. You said it perfectly. In my book, I do say, you know, we could use definite atonement or particular redemption, but I break it down.

01:20:55

You did a good job with the scope and the efficacy. I break it down into intent, extent, and efficacy.

01:21:04

What was the intent behind the atonement? Well, Matthew tells us he shall save his people from their sins.

01:21:12

The extent is seen in Romans 8 and John 10. Jesus dies for the elect and for the sheep, not the unelect and not the goats.

01:21:24

And the efficacy is that Christ's death 100 % saves. And I just quoted 2

01:21:30

Corinthians 5 .21 earlier, and there's a hynna clause in there, which tells us the purpose and the result of Christ being made sin on our behalf.

01:21:41

He who knew no sin became sin, so that, there's the hynna clause, we might become the righteousness of God in him.

01:21:49

And I bring that up because it has the same sort of clause in it that John 3 .16

01:21:55

does. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

01:22:03

So if you believe that it is true, that if you believe you will not perish, but have everlasting life, then you must also believe to be consistent, that if Christ was made sin on your behalf, that you will become the righteousness of God in him, because that is the divine purpose and result that the hynna clause entails and portrays to us.

01:22:29

And John 42 .2, God's hand cannot be thwarted. So if God purposes something, it's going to happen.

01:22:37

And my point by rambling there was just to say that Jesus' death is 100 % efficacious.

01:22:45

It actually saves in the Calvinistic system, whereas in the non -Calvinist system, it potentially saves.

01:22:52

And so while we limit it in its scope, as you said, or in its intent and its extent, they limit it in its efficacy.

01:23:01

That Jesus' death only saves if man's free will does something to actuate it or actualize it.

01:23:09

And we're saying, no, Jesus' death perfectly purchases the salvation of all the elect.

01:23:16

Yes, and Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, also reminds us of a text that Armenians do not interpret in a wooden literal sense as they want us to do in other verses involving the atonement.

01:23:37

She brings up a verse here.

01:23:43

I was just looking at it. Luke 2, verse 1,

01:23:49

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census be taken to all the inhabited earth.

01:23:59

And obviously there was no way that they were capable of taking a sentence, a census of the entire inhabited earth, because there was many areas of the earth that have not yet even been explored yet by those in that area.

01:24:24

Very good verse there from Cindy in Findlay, Ohio.

01:24:31

Exactly. They didn't get on boats and travel to North America to take a census of the

01:24:37

Native Americans, if they were even there at that time. Who knows if they were there back that far ago.

01:24:47

But we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and he says,

01:24:57

There are many people who call themselves four -point Calvinists. Can you actually, as you were saying before, about being logical and consistent, can you truly be a four -point

01:25:12

Calvinist if you're really defining the other four points the way that they have historically been understood?

01:25:19

Yeah, that's a very good question. Because of the fact that we who are so -called five -point, or now seven -point

01:25:29

Calvinists, we believe that they are inseparable, that if you remove one of them, like limited or definite atonement, it's like a domino effect.

01:25:44

They just fall. They don't make sense. But if you could answer in your own words. So, yeah,

01:25:51

I definitely think if you're being logically consistent that you're going to hold to all five points.

01:25:59

But more than that, more than being logically consistent, if you're being exegetically consistent and you're holding to the same hermeneutics that you do when you prove the deity of Christ and all this other stuff, then you are going to hold to all five points.

01:26:13

But with that said, there are four -point Calvinists, like I think

01:26:19

Millard Erickson would be a four -pointer, and I think he calls himself a sublapsarian

01:26:24

Calvinist, which basically means he changes the order of the decree to where that God chooses for Jesus' death to be hypothetical and then for him to give faith to the elect and for them to actualize that hypothetical atonement.

01:26:45

Now, the problem with that, again, that Dr. White has brought up so many times is that if that's the case, then you have members of the

01:26:53

Trinity that are kind of working against one another. Like if the Father chooses and elects people, why is the

01:26:59

Son then going to go and purchase the salvation of all people without exception? And then the

01:27:05

Spirit's only going to apply that to a certain amount of people. That just doesn't fit in the classical theist

01:27:14

God. It doesn't make sense. Well, thanks a lot, C .J.,

01:27:19

and you have also won a copy of The Seven Points of Calvinism by Jerry Duckworth.

01:27:26

Please make sure that you give us your full mailing address in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com,

01:27:35

can ship you out your copy. And I think it would probably be good for those who are not very familiar with what the five points of Calvinism actually are that you have added your own two points to.

01:27:54

Why don't you, even though I listed them earlier, why don't you give a little bit more detail than I did on what they actually mean, and let's start with total depravity, the tea and tulip, which is a very highly misunderstood teaching.

01:28:15

Absolutely. So total depravity does not mean that we are as evil as we could be.

01:28:22

It means that we are totally affected by sin in every aspect of our being, meaning our thoughts, our thought thinking is affected by sin.

01:28:34

Our bodies are affected by sin. And yes, even our will is affected by sin to the point where Jesus says it is enslaved to sin.

01:28:43

He who sins is a slave to sin. And then a subset of total depravity is total inability, which is that when the gospel call is presented, whosoever will let them come take freely of the waters of life, because you have an evil heart, you are morally unable to respond positively to the gospel call.

01:29:06

That is total depravity. Yes. And people get this notion in their head that we are teaching that human beings are by nature as bad as they could be.

01:29:24

But because of God's sovereign restraint of humans, we are not.

01:29:32

If God would move even a finger of his restraint from mankind, not only would you not be safe to leave your home, you'd be murdered within minutes, but if you don't live alone, you could very well be murdered inside your home.

01:29:57

There would be absolute mayhem and calamity beyond our comprehension.

01:30:04

And the only reason that the world is not like that and why even the reprobate very often do kind and wonderful things for fellow humans, that is all because of the restraint of God.

01:30:23

And I'm not sure you would agree with that as well. Absolutely. 100%.

01:30:28

All right. Unconditional election. There's another one that is misunderstood.

01:30:35

And isn't this teaching that there is no condition within us that draws

01:30:44

God to elect us, but the reason why it's misunderstood is that the non - or anti -Calvinist believes that we are teaching that God elects people as if he is playing eeny, meeny, miny, moe, and that there is no purpose behind his election.

01:31:08

In one sense, the condition of our election is that God loves us, but we are unworthy of that love and we have no lovable qualities within us to cause him to love us.

01:31:25

That's something that is just a part of his own will in the part of salvation.

01:31:31

But I don't want to speak for you. Why don't you tell us more about unconditional election? Absolutely.

01:31:39

Ephesians 1 tells us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

01:31:45

That's before I even existed. And Romans 9 teaches that before they were born or did anything good or bad,

01:31:52

God chose Jacob over Esau. Now, we extrapolate from that the reality that God did not choose me because of any good thing in me.

01:32:06

He didn't choose me because of foreseen faith. He didn't choose me because I'm so attractive.

01:32:11

I mean, if y 'all could see me, y 'all would know. He didn't choose me because of that.

01:32:18

He chose me according to his own purposes. Again, like you were saying,

01:32:23

Chris, not arbitrary purposes, but ultimately for his own glory.

01:32:30

Amen. So this flippant description of Calvinism and our understanding of God's sovereign choice by those outside of our circles is just without merit not only from the

01:32:55

Bible where we draw what we believe, but even historically from Calvinists that we esteem and read and learn from.

01:33:05

There is nothing in the history of Calvinism that teaches that God makes a choice for absolutely no reason at all.

01:33:19

God can do nothing arbitrary. Wouldn't you say that God arbitrarily created the world?

01:33:25

No. He has a purpose behind every single thing that he does, including who he elects.

01:33:33

Yeah, the unconditional is talking about there is no condition within us that would merit our election.

01:33:42

Precisely. In fact, everything about us would, if not for the grace and mercy of God, and his sovereignly choosing to love a portion of humanity, everything about us would just warrant that we spend eternity in hell.

01:34:08

And we already went into limited atonement, which many of us prefer to call definite atonement or particular redemption.

01:34:21

And as I will repeat, that substitutionary atonement is another way we phrase it, and that the non -Calvinists cannot legitimately say that they believe in that.

01:34:35

We go to irresistible grace. There's another one that's constantly misunderstood, and we are slandered for believing things that we do not believe, because that is the caricature, the response to that irresistible grace is the caricature that people are dragged kicking and screaming to heaven.

01:35:01

So if you could respond to that. All right, so irresistible grace,

01:35:08

I basically just say that God irresistibly calls his people to himself.

01:35:14

There's two different calls. There's the general call, which is the general call of the gospel, whosoever will let them come, and the effectual call.

01:35:21

The effectual call would be found in Romans 8, 29. For those whom he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

01:35:32

And those whom he predestined, he also called. Those whom he called, he also justified. Those whom he justified, he also glorified.

01:35:39

There is no place in that chain to insert the autonomous free will of man.

01:35:49

Now, where they're getting the dragging, kicking and screaming is actually a misunderstanding of John 6, 44.

01:35:57

Jesus says, no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

01:36:04

And draws there, helco in the Greek, is efficacious in its usage in the

01:36:12

Greek New Testament. It's used as in drawing in nets, drawing a sword from its sheath and dragging

01:36:19

Paul and Silas out of the temple. So a lot of people would extrapolate from that. Oh, you think

01:36:24

God's dragging people, kicking and screaming into the kingdom? And we say, no, we believe that the drawing there is efficacious lexically, but also syntactically when you see that no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

01:36:42

So it's the same him who is drawn is raised up, but he doesn't do it by pulling us or forcing us, but our will, but by changing our will through efficacious illumination.

01:36:55

Jesus says, who do men say that I am? And Peter says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus says, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father in heaven has revealed this to you and through causing us to be born again through the word.

01:37:10

That's 1 Peter 1 and James 1 is where I would point to from that.

01:37:17

And when he gives us a new heart, gives us the gift of faith and grants us repentance, then we do of our own volition, put our faith in Jesus Christ.

01:37:26

So it's not that he forces us against our will to be saved. It's that he takes our old, dead and rotten will and gives us a new one.

01:37:35

Amen. And we have Caleb in Duval, Washington.

01:37:47

And Caleb says, please explain how Calvinists are not disobeying the clear teaching of Scripture, whosoever will may come.

01:38:01

That's interesting. And the actual verse that people are typically thinking of when they use that is

01:38:09

Revelation 22, 17. And the spirit and the bride say, come and let him that heareth say, come and let him that is a thirst come and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.

01:38:26

The interesting thing about that, and I'm sure you agree, Jerry, is that that in no way says anything about the ability, the natural ability of man to, apart from regeneration, choose

01:38:42

Christ. It's just, it's basically saying anybody who wants to take the water of life freely.

01:38:50

The issue is who wants to. Am I right? That's the issue. Who is going to want to?

01:38:56

Exactly. That reminds me of a story. There was these two pastors. One was a

01:39:02

Methodist pastor, and one of those conservative Methodists back in the day, and there was a Presbyterian pastor, and they would always pick at each other.

01:39:11

And the Methodist pastor would pass the Presbyterian and said, whosoever will. And the Presbyterian pastor looked back and said, yeah, but who will?

01:39:20

And that's what it boils down to is, yes, anyone without exception who wants to come to Jesus can.

01:39:27

But the problem is, is your Walter is broke before you're born again, because Jesus says that in Luke, I think it's 645 that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

01:39:39

In other words, our actions proceed from our heart out of the good things, perceived good things out of the evil heart proceeds, evil things.

01:39:46

Well, if you got an evil heart, you're going to do evil things. You're not going to trust in Jesus. And so God has to give us a new heart so that you will.

01:39:57

Amen. And we have to go to our final break. And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:40:03

Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Send in your question quickly because they're rapidly running out of time.

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Buttafuoco & Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back to our conversation with my guest today,

01:51:05

Jerry Duckworth on his book, Seven Points of Calvinism. And we have a couple of questions for you.

01:51:13

And one of them that I'll take first, because it relates to the fifth point that you want us, our listeners, to be further clarified of what that exactly means, the perseverance and preservation of the saints.

01:51:34

We have Kirk in Bethel Park, Pennsylvania. And Kirk says, how do you answer to the anti -Calvinist who claims that Calvinism teaches that people may live in an unrepentant way their entirety of their life, and they will still go to heaven because they have already been chosen.

01:52:01

And that's an excellent question because it is a common slander.

01:52:09

And I'm sure you would agree, Jerry, that one of the reasons why people wrongly think that about Calvinists is because, tragically, there is a considerably large element of evangelicalism that teaches that a truly born -again person does not ever need to repent, and they could live for decades in unrepentant immorality and rebellion.

01:52:42

And that person can be said, it could be said of that person at their funeral, well, we know they're in heaven because I remember when he was six years old and he walked forward at the altar call at Bible camp.

01:52:57

So isn't that also one of the reasons why typically Reformed Christians prefer the term perseverance and preservation of the saints over eternal security?

01:53:10

Because even though we believe that the elect are eternally secure, at the same time, that's an insufficient description because there's much more to the story than that.

01:53:24

Oh, wait a minute. You're on mute. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Absolutely.

01:53:31

The people that you were referring to that teach that someone can make a profession of faith an entire life and then get to heaven are called free gracers, or they hold to what's called free grace theology.

01:53:44

I actually have a debate coming up with Charles Jennings from Lehman Seminary, and I will be debating him on free grace theology and showing that and actually saved individual has a changed life.

01:53:59

And that is perfectly consistent with Calvinism. Just check our confessions. In fact, the

01:54:05

P actually presupposes the perseverance of the saints. You must, you know, he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

01:54:13

But then we like the term preservation of the saints because you persevere because God preserves you.

01:54:20

And the way that we can avoid that slanderous statement, that we believe someone can live like hell and then get to heaven is to just show them,

01:54:30

Hey, no, we hold to regeneration. Ezekiel 36, 25 to 27.

01:54:35

God says that I will sprinkle clean water on you and I will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

01:54:42

And I will put a new spirit within you and I will cause you to walk in my ways. And then in Ephesians two 10, it says that, well, or by grace, are you saved through faith?

01:54:55

And it's not of yourself. It is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. And then it says that God prepared good works beforehand that we should walk in.

01:55:05

So for those who hold to predestination, if God predestined that you're going to be doing good works, then, then you will.

01:55:12

So we do believe that the, the evidence of your salvation is that you are continually continuing to believe that you are loving the brethren and that you are obeying

01:55:24

Jesus's commandments, all of first John. So that's how we avoid that slander.

01:55:31

Yes, I can. I know that I've said this on my program before, but I can vividly remember years ago when

01:55:39

I worked for WMCA Christian radio, 5 70 AM in New York, a major affiliate of the largest

01:55:48

Christian radio network in the world, Salem media. And I can remember hearing

01:55:55

Raul Reese, who was a part of the Calvary Chapel group. At least he was,

01:56:01

I don't know where Raul is these days. But I can still remember

01:56:07

Raul Reese saying in his thick accent, there are people out there who teach that you can live like the devil your whole life, and you'll still go to heaven when you die, man, that's not in the

01:56:23

Bible, man. John Calvin made that up, man. I was utterly shocked to hear this because although Raul was right, that's not in the

01:56:35

Bible, but John Calvin, not only did he make, not make that up, he never uttered a concept like that.

01:56:44

And it just revealed Raul Reese's complete ignorance of Calvin or any

01:56:50

Calvinist for that matter, because nobody who's a Calvinist believes that. And the,

01:56:59

I was going to say something I can't remember right now. Oh, I had a independent fundamentalist

01:57:06

Baptist friend of mine years ago say that he objected to the term perseverance and preservation of the saints, preferring eternal security, because in his mind, perseverance of the saints indicates that we believe that we are going to heaven because we are persevering.

01:57:32

In other words, it's in his mind, and it sounded like we were teaching that we are helping to earn our salvation by, you know, pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and maintaining a moral life or something until we die.

01:57:52

And that's why we are persevering, but that's not true at all. That's a false description of that. Right?

01:57:59

Absolutely. You're correct. That's a false description because, and that's, that is why I prefer the term preservation of the saints so that people do not get confused.

01:58:10

But the perseverance aspect is just emphasizing our union with Christ that because we are united to Christ through the person of the

01:58:18

Holy spirit, that we will grow in holiness. And he who began a good work in us will finish it.

01:58:24

I like to illustrate union with Christ. We are tethered to a rocket ship.

01:58:33

The Holy spirit ties us to the rocket ship, which is Jesus. And he blasts off and gets us to where we're, you know, to heaven.

01:58:41

And as we are changing elevation, that is us growing in holiness. Now I wish it was just straight up though, because my, my holiness actually grows more like stocks, rises and falls, rises and falls.

01:58:55

Well, tell our listeners how they could get seven points of Calvinism. So if you go to amazon .com

01:59:02

and just type in the seven points of Calvinism, and that's how you will find that.

01:59:08

Or you can just Google the seven points of Calvinism by Jerry Duckworth, or feel free to go to my

01:59:15

YouTube channel. There, there will be a link in the description or feel free to email me at j .duckworth20

01:59:23

at fruitland .edu. That's j .d -u -c -k -w -o -r -t -h -2 -0 at fruitland, f -r -u -i -t -l -a -n -d .edu.

01:59:35

And I will do my best to get one to you. And don't forget about christsongministry .org,

01:59:41

the prison ministry, christsongministry .org. Thank you so much, Jerry, for being such an excellent guest.

01:59:46

Thank you, everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater