What Salvation Is All About — Robert B. Thompson

Lord, we thank you for your goodness and your love toward us, Lord. It's wonderful, the things that you do are so spectacular. And Lord, we know that at times we go through very difficult places, but you always bring us through if we don't quit.

You always bring us through if we don't quit, no matter how tough it gets. You explained to me, Lord, that when I asked you about what it means to be tough, you said it means that you can be twisted and turned in every way, but you spring back to your original shape.

And I see that, Lord, that's what real toughness is. It's not a lot of swearing or doing kickboxing or anything else. It's coming back into shape when you've been bent and twisted. So, Lord, when the pressures come on us and we're bent and twisted, help us, Lord, to come back smiling, cheerful, ready to go on with God, no matter what happens.

Help us to be tough, Lord. Help us to endure hardness as good soldiers of Jesus Christ, Lord, no matter what comes down the trail. So, Lord, here we are. We need your guidance. If you want this to be an extension of the Christian Life School of Theology, then so be it.

If not, Lord, then your will be done. It's whatever you want. That's what we want. Grant us all understanding tonight in Jesus' name. Amen. Now, as I prayed, not knowing who would be here, I still feel that I should be explaining the Feast of the Lord.

And, of course, some of you know it so well. Others, it's not that well. So, I'm going to be counting on you to ask questions when you have questions and not sit there and do nothing. Okay? So, ask questions when you have questions.

Everyone except Isaiah. He's exempt. Because he's got business over there with his teething ring. Okay, so let's show them all seven feasts because I know there's some here. I just go too fast. I assume too much.

And I find myself teaching Stan who knows it all already. Alright, well, I was going to show them all together, but this will do this way. This is fine. Alright, the seven feasts of the Lord, and we've been working with the last four.

The Seven Feasts and the Personal Journey of Salvation

And the reason that they're so useful is because they show us where we are today. And it isn't just a bunch of disconnected incidents, but it's a program. It's something that's going somewhere. And the first of the seven feasts is Passover.

Would anyone like to tell me what that means in terms of us personally? We know what happened in the cross, but what does it mean, the Passover experience, to us personally? What does it mean? Yes, Andrew?

It's our initial salvation. First comes repentance. Initial repentance of the Lord.

Alright, let's leave repentance for a minute, for just a second, because that really comes under unleavened bread. Now, let's just stay with the Passover. Now, what happened at the Passover? Yes?

The Jews were not judged like the rest of Egypt was.

Precisely. It has to do with judgment on the gods of the world. The Egyptians had a god for every day in the year. They were a people, a religious people, with many, many gods. Cow gods, sun god, every kind of god you can think of.

And God said, I'm going to judge the gods of Egypt. When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and not judge you. So, when you first get saved, you accept the Passover blood, so that when God judges the world, or sinners, you are not judged.

He didn't deal with them about sin, he didn't mention sin. He just said, you are my chosen people, I'm going to bring you out of Egypt, and I'm going to judge the gods of Egypt, and if you will put the blood on the doorpost of your house, that is on the frame of the doorway of your house, when I see the blood, I will pass over you.

So, the first thing you must realize is that you, as a Christian, are part of God's Israel. You are part of God's elect. And God has given the blood of the Lamb, so that when you, by faith, say, I want myself and my family to be protected by your blood, it's protection, it's the blood of protection, and then when God comes by your house in this calamity, because he's judging the nation, he will pass over you.

So it's a blood of protection. Is there any question about that? It's protection. It's just protection. It's a blood of protection. When I see the blood, I will pass over you. I don't know if we're going to need protection in the spirit realm, so maybe it is just for this line.

Now, there's another, are there any more questions about it?

Okay, yes. In doing so, doesn't the Lord then reserve the right to judge us later?

Yeah, but I want to keep it simple, because a student last week came up and thanked me for keeping it simple, and I haven't forgotten that. Okay. Now, if you have that solidly in your mind, I can add a little something to it.

I don't want to go so fast here that you get confused. The Passover lamb, there's more to it than that. One thing, when the Jews celebrate Passover, they celebrate deliverance from bondage. God brought us out of bondage.

Now, here's the problem with that. They came out of that bondage and went straight into another bondage, the bondage of demons. So the key to the liberty, am I going too fast for you? The key to the liberty of Passover is not the exodus.

The key, it isn't the moving out of Egypt. The key is the lamb. The lamb sets us really free. So the freedom is not a geographical freedom. It's not... Martin Luther made that quite a theme. You know, thank God we're free.

Thank God we're free. Well, politically, yes, and very valuable to the people concerned. But you can be free politically and be in the worst kind of chains. And Israel went from a bad bondage of slavery to a worse one of the demon gods of the world until finally God had to send them into political captivity in Assyria and Babylon.

So it's well to keep... I'm trying to keep it very simple for you, as simple as I can. But remember, these things have a lot of ramifications because God doesn't work like geometry where you can go from one theorem to the next theorem and everything is neat.

It isn't like that. Because you remember, John the Baptist said, Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. So that's not covering. So I'm just adding these things so that you'll get a fuller picture of the Passover lamb.

But in the schema that we're addressing now, it's enough to think of it as the blood of protection. Actually, when you have Christ, you have everything. It isn't like you go from Passover to unleavened bread, unleavened bread to firstfruits, firstfruits to Passover.

That may or may not work out in series in your life. When you have Christ, you have everything. But it's a case of working it out. Work out your salvation. You've got it. Now you have to work it out. Now, I like to think of moving through the feasts as a spiral staircase.

Because in a spiral staircase, you keep, like if you start off facing north, and you go up, pretty soon you come back to north. But what's different? You're at a higher level. And then you go up the spiral staircase, pretty soon you're back facing north again, but you're at a higher level.

And so that's the way it is with the feasts of the Lord. It's not like a ladder. It's more like a spiral staircase. You keep coming back to Passover, and it means more to you. You keep coming back to Pentecost, and it means more to you.

Now, as far as tabernacles, which represents the dwelling of Christ in us, we sing about that when we're first saved. I have Christ in my heart. And that's true. But it keeps being developed, or worked out, at a higher level.

Are there any questions about that? It's all Christ. But you can have Christ, but not have worked out Christ. You can remain a baby, still playing chopsticks all your life. You haven't worked out anything.

All the potential is there for the fullness of God in Christ, but you haven't worked it out. And that's important to remember, because you may, some of you undoubtedly will be teachers in the future, and your students will say, but when we have Christ, we have it all.

What are you talking about? And say, that's right. You do. It's a case of working it out. And then you have Scripture. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Any questions so far? Now, if you're confused, let me know, and I'll slow down.

Poor Stan. All right. Now, see how they respond up there? Boy, I couldn't want it any better. Thank you. This way you can see the whole pattern. Now, unleavened bread, you know that that was all part of the Passover week.

The Passover week included Passover, unleavened bread, and firstfruits. It was all in one week. And it's called the week of unleavened bread. That was very important because God commanded them to get all leaven out of their houses.

Today they make quite a ceremony out of that, don't they, Miriam? They make quite a ceremony of sweeping all the leaven out of the house. And your bread must be without yeast. It must be without yeast.

Yeast is leaven that causes bread to rise. It's really bacteria, is what it is, and generates gas and causes the bread to rise. That's leavened bread. That's what we eat. But unleavened bread is flat and hard and without yeast.

And God said, during the Passover week, eat your bread without leaven. Now, according to the Scripture, Paul refers to leaven as the malice and wickedness of the world. The malice and wickedness of the world is leaven.

And that we deal with in water baptism. We repent and, as it were, we sweep the leaven of the world spirit of malice and wickedness out of us. We turn away from it. That's why, in the book of Acts, you'll find repent and be baptized.

I don't know if it's the book of Acts or in John and Jesus' preaching, but it's repent and be baptized. Repent and be baptized. I think that's the first thing Peter said. What shall we do? Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Repent and be baptized. Well, that's unleavened bread. So now we have the blood of protection and we have repentance and water baptism, which is a sign that we have left the malice and wickedness of the world and are ready to live in the new life of Christ.

Any questions so far? Okay. Now, the third feast of firstfruits, the Jews celebrated that in the time of the barley harvest. Now, the barley harvest is the first grain to ripen. So, before they could harvest barley, they had to cut a few sheaves and bring them to the priest and the priest would wave the sheaves of barley before the Lord.

God put his blessing on the sheaves of firstfruits and that meant then that the whole harvest was holy because the firstfruits had been blessed and they could go then and harvest the barley and then the rest of the grain harvest, whatever they had beside barley and wheat, rye or whatever, I don't know.

Okay, so, in our life, this is what it means and this is important. You may never have heard this before. Stan has, I'm sure, and Eddie, but some of you may never have heard this before. Are you ready for this?

Okay, this is a point of cognition. Knowledge. A fact. When you are, when you come to Christ, you come under the blood of protection, you repent, you're baptized in water, showing that you're through with the world and then God takes your spirit.

Well, it's more than that. A portion of Christ is born, let's put it this way, it's more accurate. A portion of Christ is born in your inward nature. It's really the seed of God. It's a portion of God.

It's a viable seed that comes from God and is planted in your inward nature. It's Christ in you. It's the beginning of Christ in you. And that becomes a firstfruits of the reaping of your personality.

There's a lot of confusion in that, in Christian thinking. They can't understand what in the world God is talking about when He says you are dead and your life is hidden with Christ and God. What it means is this firstborn again, firstfruits of your life, has been blessed by the Lord, it's holy and has been raised in Christ to God's right hand.

And so then you become a dual personality. You have the main part of your personality, body, soul and spirit, is on the earth. But a firstfruits of your personality is already with Christ. And why don't we look at that?

Are we up there? I don't see Tim. Tim's there. There goes a hand. Alright, now. Or is that John Beck or whoever it is? I don't see John. Maybe it's John. Oh, there's John. Okay, let's try Ephesians 2, verse 6.

I haven't pressed this. Oh, before I came to pastor in Powayah I used to hold forth on this until it was nauseating. I mean, this was a big gun with me. This fact that you are already at God's right hand.

And this is a very... I want you to notice verses 5 and 6. Made us alive with Christ. Tense of the verb, students. Tense of the verb. I don't know if they're taught tense in school anymore. Again, the transformational grammar.

God knows who can understand that. They used to have present tense, past tense, pluperfect, perfect, past perfect, past pluperfect and all that. I just want to know is it present, future or past? Past.

Alright, so God already has made us alive with Christ. Now, that's a firstfruits. That's not the whole harvest. That's a firstfruits. Your whole personality is not alive in Christ. Believe me. There's a lot of death there.

And as I said Sunday, if you want to check it out, just say, Lord, is there any death in me? Show me, and he will. Don't worry, it's there. And it's struggling for mastery over you at all times. But you see, a firstfruits of your personality is alive in Christ.

It is divine. It is supernatural. It's the divine nature. It's a firstfruits of the reaping of your life. Does that make sense to you? Watch the tenses. Alright. And when we were dead in sin, it is by grace you have been saved.

And God raised us up. Tense? Past? He's talking about living people on the earth. Past tense. But what is it that's been raised? The firstfruits. The born-again portion of your personality. The born-again bothers me.

It really should be what happens is conception, not birth. See, Jesus didn't discriminate there. He said in order to be born again, in order to see the kingdom, you have to be born again. But you don't see the kingdom until you've gone through the process of conception.

I mean, the seed has begun to grow. The egg has been fertilized and the thing starts to grow. And then cellular division that's called mitosis begins to take place. And pretty soon you have an embryo.

And then that keeps on developing through the process of mitosis and cellular multiplication until it becomes a fetus. And then in the fullness of time, after nine months, the fetus comes out and we call that birth.

And it's true with us. We really are not born again until we have gone through quite a process of conception and formation. You can say, yeah, but I've been born again. I'm not going to argue with you.

That's just theology. I'm telling you how the mechanics work. Yes? Because God sees us at birth. Sure.

God sees us already born. But I like what Paul said, my little children of whom I travail in birth until Christ is formed in you. And that's exactly what happens after conception. There's a forming. There's a forming.

So we have a first fruits which is a portion of God's life which is viable. Do you know what viable means? How many of the young people under 20 know what viable means? It's used all the time incorrectly.

It's another one of these words, Bill, that's going to be changed in the future because everybody is using it to mean vital. And it does. But when we think of vital, we think of something that's alive and moving.

Viable means this. Technically, it means capable of life outside of the womb. That's what viable means. It will live outside of the matrix in which it was formed. That's what viable means. So if you want to be really dictionary correct, but it's currently, it's like these terms come up, some educator used them at Harvard and pretty soon they hit the newspaper which is written at a 6th grade level, incidentally.

And pretty soon, everything people like now is viable. I had viable transportation and I had a viable lunch and I bought a viable dress. Well, viable means capable of life outside of the womb. So, you see, we're not really viable at this point until we're born again, technically, because we're still iffy, just like it was with the Christians in Galatia.

See, they were getting off into Judaism. So, back to the issue. A portion in us, and that portion is viable in that it will live in that it's from God. It is a living seed in there. And as we see, and that's already true of you, and it's already true of you, that you have been raised, but it's not your whole person.

And there's a lot of confusion on that. No, your whole person has not been raised. The first roots, that the sheaves that have been waved inside of you, so to speak. And now God is ready to do what? The rest of the harvest.

Yes? Would you say that second half of verse 5 be towards the saved by grace part, that is by grace you have been saved? Yes. Now, no, let me, are you clear enough on what I've said.

So I can digress a little? Because when you get into these 52 concepts, they are so interwoven that it's, that's my difficulty in teaching. Because I get all this going in my mind and pretty soon I'm making a whole lot of assumptions and illusions and I lose 90 of the group.

That's my problem. So I'm trying to slow down. Because these things are all interlocked, as Anthony just pointed out. So let me digress a little here on the meaning of grace and the way Paul used it. Okay?

Grace, Moral Transformation, and the Law of Moses

The problem is when we see saved by grace, we think of it in its Gentile usage as it is commonly used as meaning that God will bring us to heaven even though we keep sinning. Because we're not saved by what we do, but by God's forgiveness.

That's the current meaning. Okay? That is not what Paul meant. You have to get at what Paul really meant. You have to think as a Jew. You have to think as a Jew to understand what Paul meant by grace.

Paul was not Irish. He was Jewish. He was not only Jewish, he was Jewish Jewish. He was an Orthodox Jew. He was a rabbi. Four locks and all. Black hat. With fur on it in the midst of summer. Like you see over in Israel.

That's the Ashkenazi, is it? They wear that hat with all the fur on it. Everybody's sweltering. Here comes the Ashkenazi. Alright. Paul was a Jew. A rabbi. He was not a western businessman. He was a rabbi.

Steeped in the law. Steeped in the law. He killed Christians. He put them in prison because they accepted Christ. He was a man of the law. The Torah. Circumcised the eighth day of the tribe of Benjamin.

Okay? He was a Jew of the Jews. All of Paul's teaching is from this background. And he meant... You see, wherever Paul went, even among the Gentiles, there were Jewish teachers who were influencing the new Greek converts and the Italian converts.

There was people who... The Jews were influencing them. And even Peter had problems with it. When Paul went back to Jerusalem, the Christians were all Jews in the temple observing the Nazarite rules because James told them, go down there and show that you're a Jew.

He said, alright, I'll go down and take a vow and I'll pay the others with me and we'll shave our head and we'll go through the whole thing because James said, if you don't, they'll kill you. It's Christians.

We don't realize that. We think Christians are Gentiles. No, Christians originally were Jew, Jew, Jew, Jews. They were keeping the law. Strictly. Strictly. Can you imagine... Now listen to me. Are you listening?

Are the iron lids, as Emerson says, iron lids? Now listen. Can you put yourself in Paul's place? Can you hear me? He was the only one, man in the world, the only man in the world that understood the transition from Moses to Christ.

None of the other apostles knew it. As you can tell by reading their epistles. They said Paul writes about things it's hard to understand. How would you feel if you had been raised as a devout Jew? God took you to the desert in Arabia and showed you by revelation what it means that you could believe in Christ and not be circumcised, not keep the Sabbath day, not keep the kosher laws, anything.

It was over. You were the only person in the world that knew this. Can you think of what would happen every time you went to preach anywhere? The background of the hearers, particularly the Jews, their response when you were telling them you do not have to keep Torah when you put your faith in Christ.

Can you picture that? What that would be like? Miriam can picture it a little because she's got a lot of real heavy Orthodox friends and she tries to talk to them. And I use the term try advisedly. I mean she's got some of the tough ones, the real rabid ones.

Rabbi Kravitz and others, she's friends with them all, but they're trying to convert her all the time. They know the Jews are tough people, tough as I define for you. They don't break easily. Alright, so, can you get a little inkling now of what Paul was up against when he was teaching?

What the only guy in the world that understood this? Now, when Paul is talking about grace and accenting by grace you are saved, he's reacting against the law. He's saying this is a whole new ballgame.

There's different rules. You're not saved. What he says, you're saved by grace, what he means is you're not saved by the law. Now, that's easy to see in Romans and Galatians. It's spelled out very clearly, very clearly.

He keeps reacting against the law. You know the law says this, but now it's this. You know the law says that. What has happened is the church has been dominated by Gentiles for so long, we don't have this background.

We do not have this background. And so the Gentile theologians have come to teach that what that means is we're saved by a sovereign action of God apart from our behavior, godly behavior, righteousness, which is altogether different.

If I say that God is saving us by grace rather than by transforming us morally, then grace becomes a mystique. And I wrote a book on that called The Grace Mystique. It's become a mystique called a state of grace, which is an unscriptural term.

But this mystique is one of the real foundations of evangelical thinking is the grace mystique. And it's just that, it's a mystique. It's that God has left the Jews and their law, has come to Gentiles and has said, I'm going to bring you to heaven even though you're not righteous because the salvation does not depend on your behavior.

It depends on a sovereign thing that I have done. So it's a mystique. There's nothing you can get your fingers into because you can't grasp it because of something so high above us and you can see the effect that it's had on people.

They think, well, okay, God is saving me. I don't understand it, but God is doing, this is an action of God. It has nothing to do with my behavior. And then you can see what happens when you come into a real heavy burning temptation to do something.

Steal, lust, kill somebody or whatever it is because in your mind is this thing. It's not really going to affect. I think President Clinton operates in this way. He regards himself as a Christian. And the churches he goes to teach this.

I've done all these things, but it will not affect my salvation. I think O .J. Simpson feels the same way. Exactly the same. See, his mother is a firm church goer. And you get this thing in you that it's terrible what I've done, but that does not affect my salvation.

Now, does anyone not understand what I'm saying? So, Anthony, when he says up here, by grace you're saved, he's reminding people that it has nothing to do with the law of Moses. But then in other parts of the New Testament, he says, if you are not transformed morally, you will not inherit the kingdom.

So you would think Gentile theologians would put that together and say, well, it can't mean, grace can't mean that God's saving you apart from your behavior because Paul in several places said, you won't inherit the kingdom.

Well, how many see where the, how many at this point, I'm particularly interested in the young people as you get it, how many can see that intelligent, devout, Gentile theologians, how do you think they handle the fact that they're teaching that your behavior doesn't matter when they come to verses like Galatians 5 .19 -21 that say, if you continue in adultery and fornication and strife and so you won't inherit the kingdom, how do you think they deal with that?

Because they say they believe every word in the Bible. Which, by the way, that term, you need to know, it's a Bible school term. It is this, and you believe it. You believe in the plenary, verbal, inspiration of the scriptures.

Plenary means full, yes? P-L-E-N-A-R-Y. It's used a lot in law. Plenary is used a lot in law. It means full. You believe in the full, word-by-word, inspiration of the Bible. In particular, the received text, which is the King James.

That is what you believe. That makes you a fundamentalist. You believe in the plenary, verbal, inspiration of the scriptures. Alright, now, these theologians that are teaching, and this is the common teaching, that grace is a mystique that operates apart from your moral change into a new creature, say they believe in the plenary, verbal, inspiration of the scripture.

In this case, how do you think they get around the fact that several verses in the New Testament say that if you don't change morally, you're going to come to a bad end and you won't inherit the kingdom?

Much less Jesus, who said things like, if you don't use your talents, you'll go into the outer darkness. How do you, how would you say, as a person under 20, now, how would you say that they accommodate this?

How do they deal with that? If you pointed out to them, yes, but Paul said we won't inherit the kingdom if we commit adultery, and you're saying we will anyway, because we're saved by grace. What is your explanation?

How do you think they respond? Now, Colleen, well, Colleen, are you under 20, Colleen? You're not, no, no, you're 22 or 23. Alright, now, you know how they, how do they respond, Colleen, because you've heard it for years.

That Paul is talking to the unsaved, in Galatians 5 .19. That Paul is talking to unsaved people. That's one way that they do. Of course, any high school student, junior, sharp junior high student, would point out, but the book of Galatians is addressed to the saints.

And there's no indication in the text that he stopped talking to the saints and turned to the world. Huh? There's no indication that he shifted to the saints. There's no indication that he shifted gears.

And also, and this may be a little swift for you, also, if you turn that around, okay, so you're saying then that he's talking to the unsaved, he's saying that they do all these things they won't inherit the kingdom, then are you saying that if the unsaved do, do, do straighten up they'll inherit the kingdom?

Oh, well, no, because there's no other name. So, see, it's really incompetent reasoning to say the least. But what other, what other, I guess that was a little swift, I'll be on the tape. Alright, what other excuses do you think they give?

It applies to the Jews. It applies to the Jews. And, and they do this a lot where Jesus said, for example, if you don't use your talent you'll be cast in the outer dark. Well, that's to the Jews. What's wrong with that reasoning?

Jesus was talking to a Jew and he said, how does the uncle think he can't be born again and then? Exactly. Exactly. If the parable of the talents doesn't apply, then neither does being born again. Neither does be abiding in the vine.

Neither does any of the things that Jesus said and John, which are bases of Christian theology. The good shepherd, the whole thing, behold the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. He's talking to the Jews.

He's talking to the Jews. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and he was talking to the Jews. It doesn't apply to them. See, so they're licked wherever they turn. What's another thing they say?

I think you'll find this in the Scofield footnotes, but you'll have to check it out. They're saying that after Christ was raised from the dead, every Jew everything changed and now it's grace, but before that it was the commandments of Christ.

But since he rose from the dead, it's all changed.

And now it's by grace. How would you answer that? I'm alerting you. Lisa? Simply, it's kind of like a child who gets everything they want, all the candy. I can have everything I want. My dad will give me everything.

And because he loves me unconditionally, so I can have my cake and eat it too. Is there an excuse for the grave? Would I have I understand the grace of this form when we realize it and God says, okay, you repent, you're saved by grace.

That's true. But now, you're dealing now with scholars. Okay? They have asked you a pointed question. After Christ's resurrection, it all changed. How do you deal with that? Exactly. You can find everything that Jesus said you can find in the epistles.

See, all of the warnings are in the epistles. In one way or another, they're all in the epistles. So, they are absolutely without defense, so then it becomes an emotional issue. See? They cannot address it intellectually.

And you'll find that in the future when you're dealing with people. And another thing that they say is the book of Hebrews, which is a book of works, was not written to Christians. That's a fairly new one as far as I know.

So, you will find that if you know your Bible and begin to talk to them, that what will happen is that they will become defensive and emotional because they cannot answer from the Scripture. If you know your Scripture, you can demolish everything they say.

It is obviously true that grace is in contradistinction to the law of Moses, not to moral transformation. What do you think they do with Jane's statement faith without works is dead? Yeah, but how do they deal with the plenary verbal inspiration when part of the New Testament canon says exactly, what can you do with it?

Yes? I heard one when I was in college. What was that one? And that is you are saved by words in man's eye because you're impressing people. I never heard that. I never heard that. Isn't that neat? I wonder what they do with pure religion and undefiled is this to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and to keep yourself unspotted from the world.

Yes? One of the newest thoughts that is actually exploding out of my home in Nazarene, is that the Bible, the church believes that everything that has to do strictly with salvation is to be accepted in the Scripture and the rest of it can just kind of be disregarded.

Really, this is coming out of the mouth of a professional. They never heard of that? They will do anything, anything, except say you have to live righteously. It's always, Satan always attacks the concept of righteous living because that to him is anathema.

Satan could not care if the whole church was raptured into heaven. That does not bother him. If the whole church sang Christian hymns and believed in Christ, it would not bother him. Believe me, Satan is only concerned when you begin to live righteously because then you are invading his kingdom.

See? You can have, you can believe in Christ, profess Christ, you can have gifts of the Spirit, you can sing hymns, you can dance and praise God and do mine, and it doesn't bother Satan until you begin to stop lying, stop sexual aberrations.

That's when he gets excited. And so he has fought the Jews, he got them off righteousness into the minutia of the law, which didn't matter whether or not you chewed a breath mint on the Sabbath. He got them into that.

Okay? He did it with the Catholic church by getting them... See, the Catholic church will not translate Repineo, they will not translate that repentance. They translate it due penance. So that you can sin as long as you go into the confessional then and do your Our Father and your Hail Mary or whatever else they say, so there's no moral transformation.

I know there's a lot of marvelous Catholics. Boy, are they. And so I'm not talking about that. I'm just saying how he attacks. Attacks. So then, after we got past the Catholic penances, then what did we get into was it's grace and not works.

Well, the Catholics know it's works. I mean, the Catholic church has always preached righteousness. But it doesn't have the theological punch to it. The question always is, but what if we don't? Or what if we don't?

See, that's where it gets. You should, but what if we don't? And that's the issue. If we don't, we can do penance, you can do whatever the Jews do to get right, I don't know. But you don't change your behavior.