October 20, 2016 Show with David Shedlock on “With Christ in the Voting Booth”

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th day of October 2016 well, did you miss me my listeners my faithful loyal fans?

I have been away for three days on business and God willing that will become fruitful very shortly in fact

Not only may it in the future become fruitful, but it is

Already proven itself to be a successful trip. I will be giving you details in the very near future

God willing Regarding a new program that is being hosted by a friend of mine a longtime friend for Wow, just a well over 25 years going back to the early 1980s

Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square Who is now retired from that capacity is not retired from ministry

But he's retired from the capacity of pastor there and he is doing all kinds of things in regard to evangelism and ministry and itinerant preaching and conference preaching and He is going to be hosting a weekly 90 -minute program called a visit to the pastor's study

Every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 30 p .m Eastern Time and you'll be able to hear that anywhere in the world via the

Internet and Those on the Long Island New York area and actually the the New York tri -state area can hear that at 540 a .m.

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I'm sure will be a Phenomenal blessing and this will be starting God willing in mid to late

November But today I have as my guest for the very first time

David J Shedlock and he's an adjunct instructor of composition and speech at Marshalltown Community College in Iowa.

He's a leading contributor and assistant editor of caffeinated thoughts something near and dear to my heart since I am addicted to coffee and He's also a member of Trinity Presbyterian Reformed Church in Johnston, Iowa, and we're gonna be discussing his book with Christ in the voting booth

Obviously a very timely subject The subtitle is casting down imaginations

Before casting your vote. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron

David J. Shedlock It's it's good to be with you today

Chris I Consider a blessing I Considered a blessing as well.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own Regarding this topic.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris

A -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and If you feel compelled to remain anonymous for any reason You may do so we will honor your request

But if if that is not necessary or it is not required to prevent you from any kind of embarrassment

We would appreciate at least knowing your first name city and state and country of residence

Well, first of all before we even go into the subject at hand. I'd like to know a little bit about Marshalltown Community College caffeinated thoughts and also the

Trinity Presbyterian Reformed Church in Johnston, Iowa well,

I Know what you're teaching at the college. Okay. I had a stroke in 2012 and Was right the end of the semester and I hope to get back to teaching someday soon

But I'm not I'm not fully recovered yet. So That's that part of it's on hold

I Write for a blog a block

Called caffeinated thoughts and I right now I'm writing about three to five articles a year

Before the stroke I was writing two or three a week Wow and on on politics and subjects and Oh My church, yeah

Trinity Presbyterian Reformed Church Pastors Mike Erickson and and I've been attending there since about 20 years exactly 20 years

Wow Yeah, well, it's is that in a specific Presbyterian denomination because I've heard of the

Reformed Presbyterian Church, but not the Presbyterian Reformed Church Yeah, Presbyterian Reformed Church Some of our distinctives are

Exclusive song singing. Mm -hmm. And we use the King James Version and I Think that's only two distinctives in the

Reformed community acapella Is your worship acapella without without musical instruments, yeah, okay

Yes Well, just like I guess you're your your brothers in the

Reformed Presbyterian Church They the Covenanters they seem to hold to those two things but Well, if anybody wants to find out more about that church go to Presbyterian Reformed org

Presbyterian Reformed org and if you want to know more about the specific church that our guest is a member of Go to Presbyterian Reformed org forward slash

Trinity dash Presbyterian dash reformed dash church forward slash but Now I'd like to hear something about a briefly your own personal testimony of coming to Christ and coming to salvation and so on and and Eventually, I want to hear about how you became very interested in politics.

I Came to know I came to know Christ when I was a very young teenager

And I Was one of those young Christians who went forward at the altar about?

15 times a year And got saved, you know next week

I got unsaved and then I got saved unsaved and I Wished it when

I went to Bible College, just Frankville, Missouri Simple Bible College. I attended the church central assembly and Don't want to make there was the pastor and I went forward there and he talked to me about it

And he said you don't have to do this You're saved It's not gonna let go of you

A lot of providence in my life led me to a more understanding of the gospel

Well, praise God. Well, how did you start to develop this interest in in politics? Which eventually led to your writing of with Christ in the voting booth casting down imaginations before casting your vote?

It's evident in my life as far as importance to me Um, probably ever since the mid 80s

I joined Ronald Reagan's presidency, but it wasn't

I was not involved anymore that so George Bush GW and And then

I was I helped with a couple of independent candidates Oh Yeah, well

I interviewed the Constitution Party's presidential candidate Darrell Castle Okay.

Actually, this is my second. I did twice. I did once on the old show and once on the the new show and And I know that you've also been involved in Operation Rescue in the past and in the pro -life movement that That's One of the ways that got involved in formed view of salvation

They the Operation Rescue movement was made up of basically three different groups Catholic Pentecostal and reformed

Ministers and congregants and The three groups were formed in my opinion had the best defense of Operation Rescue Hmm.

Well, I think being reformed myself that we have the best defense for everything And I do not want to go overboard there

I were I recognize fully that we are all from the curse of the fall and By grace alone we have been saved those of us who are saved and we still carry with us

Sin and weaknesses and fallibility So I know that even we who are reformed do have some blind spots to things, but I still obviously cherish my reformed faith and believe it's the most biblical expression of Christianity and I Can never even imagine

Leaving the the precious doctrines of sovereign grace that I have come to cherish by his grace but the the title of the book that you have written very interesting and Eye -catching and also the subtitle is quite interesting

With Christ in the voting booth and Of course as we have said that the the subtitle of this book is

Is quite interesting casting down Imaginations before casting your vote if you can explain that title.

Well the first part of it With Christ in the voting booth. I come to the conclusion

That the only person that matters How We vote is

Lord Jesus Christ We don't in our culture. We don't answer to men We don't answer to parties.

We don't answer to our pastor. We don't answer to anybody in the voting booth except for Christ and if we obey

Him in the sense of doing what? A biblically informed conscious tells us to do then

Christ is in that voting booth with us and He's actually in there. He's actually in there.

We don't do that. But I Come to conclusions from this book. I Wrote towards the end of the book that I'm not the same guy.

It's a book that started the book. Hmm. I Learned so much and was changed so much from beginning to end

I The book I I tried to do was there many political books from Christian perspective but most of those

Take political issues and then they dig behind them to find what the scriptures bear on them whether that be you know issues that come up or Character of a president those kinds of things.

I did just the opposite of that. I Filled a foundation the first four or five chapters of the book on what does the

Bible teach about this subject in general? what what are the biblical foundations of Christian politic as it were and And I I laid all that out without dealing with without dealing with any stick your candidates or issues and So it's a nonpartisan book.

It's not Republican or Democrat If it tries to be biblical I share the gospel in it two or three times

And so if you look through the chapter titles with I think you said you've done the first few chapters are dealing with a fundamental things such as God puts up Kings and takes them down again

Yeah, I guess Yeah, you have chapter the very chapter of Your first chapter is our president elected or selected

Right, so I'm assuming that Go ahead. Yeah Yes, and I'm assuming that even though they are selected by God as all things if you are theologically reformed

All things are ordained before the foundation of the world by him We still are responsible

Human beings and we are held accountable for our actions and for our sins and he uses us as Instruments on this earth to bring about his will does he not?

Yes Of course, I don't the point of that is say

I don't vote it is to say Theologian he said

Speaking of reformed faith some people Why why witness then why why share the gospel if God decides who's gonna be saved and He's the written theologian.

I can't forget the moment. I can't remember who it was but said that Why do you pray?

for your family to be saved well, you pray because you think God saves them and So the idea that we don't do anything because God Yes, he commands us to do certain things and he forbids us from doing other things so Obviously you cannot no matter how reformed your theology may be

If you are not obeying God you're disobeying him and therefore you are in enmity with him, but the we actually have

A listener question. We actually have a few already and I think I'll ask this because Even though it's kind of early on in the interview.

I think I'll ask this anyway because it may set a tone for the rest of the interview or maybe a primary issue that will help

Give a background of your thoughts on a Christian's Involvement in voting we have pastor

Ron in Waiting River, Long Island, New York Who wants to know what is your opinion of a

Christian voting for the lesser of two evils or? Even being involved in selecting the lesser of two evils in other areas of life

Generally speaking. I think the Bible Condemns that as a principle that the principle would be laid out in scripture when he says

Shall we do? evil that good may come about and I think that applies to that question.

Now. I'm not saying that there are choices in his life where I think it's an unimportant one first.

He has three flavors of ice cream. He don't care for any of them But he thinks the lesser of them for some reason but we're talking about things like Voting There are too many factors to go into it to make a blanket statement.

Don't ever do it. Don't work. You must do it the truth is

Voting for a lesser candidate than the ideal, right? Yeah, now

I'm assuming that Even though when using that phrase Voting for the lesser of two evils.

I'm assuming Judging from what you just said that you would not view the voting of the lesser of two evil people as An evil act in other words

You wouldn't view the a Christian voting for an evil person who just happened to be in that voters mind

Less evil than the other candidate. I'm assuming you don't view that as sin And that does not mean that I believe that You can't always vote for the lesser of two evils.

I have a friend once who was asked point -blank if you had a choice between Hitler and Stalin who would you vote for and he actually said he'd vote for one or the other and I think there are standards by which

Christians must hold themselves to account Before they cast a vote

And again, it's not the standard is not less than there are a bunch of other standards as well

Yes, so I'm assuming that you are hinting at the fact that a

Christian with a biblically informed and a biblically transformed conscious

Has to follow his conscious on this issue Even if it does involve not voting at all or voting or voting for a candidate that Barring a modern -day miracle that parallels the parting of the

Red Sea If he voted for a third party candidate that would not be in any way a

Sinful act even if it may further secure the victory of the more overtly evil candidate that's running and more popular

I said two ways. The first the first thing you asked was about whether it would be sinful

I'm not paired in the book doesn't do any kind of judgment about one particular time

Both over another as being sinful or not Back to my conclusion. I bring about that.

That's the one thing that we are We are free to vote or not vote for whoever and for whatever reason that is

Between us and God Yes, and I'm assuming

And correct me if you disagree with me, but I'm assuming that a vote for anyone

Could be evil just as other acts that we do that are

Not innately evil, but they could be evil if our motives are improper I mean even the car that you buy or the clothing that you wear

If another person did it for different reasons, it would be completely fine and honoring to God, but if you have a

Some kind of a selfish or sinful motive in your voting Then that would be a sin.

Even if it is not innately an evil act. Would you agree with that? Yes, I would agree and It may seem like I'll be raising the bar too high to vote and I'm not people say are you trying to vote for a pastor?

No, oh Standards are laid out for political leaders or for leaders in general and Well, I don't raise the bar too high

But I think that the rounded Christian who is grounded in the Word of God will consider all that they

That goes into this system of voting before they vote and I Think there are as you point out.

There are lots and lots and lots of ways that a vote can be a sinful vote We actually have another oh by the way pastor

Ron in Wading River, Long Island, New York I almost forgot to tell you you have won a free copy of With Christ in the voting booth casting down imaginations before casting your vote compliments of Calvary Press So keep your eye out for that It's going to be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm and ship out all our winners

Free Bibles books CDs DVDs and anything else. They may be winning by Submitting questions to our guests.

So we want to thank not only Calvary Press who published Christ in the voting booth and have supplied the free copies, but we also want to thank

CV bbs .com One of our sponsors who ships out Books and Bibles and other things nearly every single day for us

And we we could never afford to do that on our own here at iron sharpens iron Which obviously is a great benefit to you the listener when you win

But I have to say I have to give a little caveat myself. I just have to say that these books that we're giving away

Are only for our United States listeners just because of the fact that the overseas shipping is

Astronomical we have made Exceptions on a couple of occasions and may continue on rare occasions to ship out winners

Free Bibles and books overseas, but that can't be an ongoing thing because it's really amazingly expensive and we cannot have

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service go out of business because they're shipping out all these books to Europe and the

Orient and everywhere else South America Africa But We do having said that we do have a listener in Kinross, Scotland Murray who has a question

He says which Bible references would you have in mind to support the idea that Christ Wants us in the voting booth at all or he as he called it the polling booth

P O L L I N G polling booth Do you have any

We do have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania who wants to know if you saw last night's debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and what your assessment of it is and I understand that you are not

Promoting either candidate or any candidate, but I was just curious if you could at least from a technical standpoint provide your opinion

I Didn't watch it. I did not watch it at all.

You didn't watch it at all. No, I'm I'm not promoting anything today but I I cannot

I Can't stop it watching these things, right? I I watched a little bit of one of them, but the back and forth of insults

I Understand that The guy who ran the program

Chris Wallace Yes Tried to do a good job of getting them to deal with issues for one.

I don't think they did that the other two debate Right. Well Chris Wallace. I don't I think he is very neutral on I mean,

I get the sense that he's conservative and Probably would not want Hillary Clinton in the

White House, but I don't get the the sense that he's a huge supporter of Donald Trump either he seems very he said he seems like a very honest and Unbiased at least in his public persona.

Anyway, he seems unbiased and wants to be a true journalist And just report the news as it is and not really give show favoritism

Right, I agree with you So you didn't want okay Well, by the way,

Susan you are getting a free copy of this book as well with Christ in the voting booth

So make sure that we have your full mailing address and we will get that out to you

This book goes through a number of important things In fact you even go into some deeply theological and very important issues

That are really in the in the background of this whole topic to begin with like even the fall of man and Total depravity you have a chapter man has fallen and he can't get up if you could explain how that relates to this whole issue

Okay The Candidates that we will be voting for our senators

They're gonna fail it if they don't fail you during the campaign they're gonna fail you when they get it off We dare not expect

Much from a candidate. That doesn't mean we don't hold them to a standard but it does mean they're all of the men and women and They're gonna fail it and they they may fail us in a major way

We would be shocked at some of the candidates who do things that we didn't think they would do But that's because they come out of a pool of sinners

Where else can we draw For our leaders from the candidate pool is sinners.

That's you and me So And we are going to a break right now if anybody else would like to join us on the air

With a question for our guests. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris a r n z e n at gmail .com Please in include your first name at least your city and state in your country of Residence if you live outside of the good old

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Welcome back This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in we are having a very timely interview today

We are talking about the book with Christ in the voting booth by David J.

Shedlock who is an author and he is also a member of Trinity Presbyterian Reformed Church in Johnston, Iowa and We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for David at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and before I go to a couple of other folks who are waiting to have their questions

Asked and answered. I just want to bring up this very fascinating title for your

Section two of the book government of the sinner by the sinner for the sinner

Very interesting way of phrasing that if you could explain further The Best way we're going to get the sinner and the president and the best the people are ever going to get their president is that we're going to be sinners to go out the election and Everything they do they have to do for sinners

It's not here to be certified American government people are but You've got to serve sinners,

I believe that sinful nature our fallen nature is the source of all of our problems

It's it's not the big guy up front That's a problem Promise me and One of the things

I wanted to ask you about in relationship to this that specific

Subtitle or subtopic of our major theme here The fact that not only are we sinners but everybody that we vote for is a sinner and Obviously, there are all different levels of sin.

There are different levels of whether or not Someone has truly Forsaken specific sins and there are other sins that are more scandalous and more

That impose more danger upon We who are citizens of the

United States who are obviously this could involve Any citizen of any nation who is voting for their leaders, but um

And I don't want to offend you or your Your the individual who wrote the foreword of your book

Mike Huckabee who I have very high regard for Mike Huckabee And agree with a lot of things that he says and teaches and I especially appreciate his his character and his humility and So, you know,

I have no Question that he is a genuine brother in Christ and a valuable asset to the church in the media but one of the things that I'm concerned about is when a preacher of the gospel is very active in The public arena and in the media aggressively supporting someone

Like Donald Trump who has a very scandalous background and also

Seems to be devoid of humility and another very important attributes

Obviously no matter who Mike Huckabee or anybody else would be rallying behind to support as a candidate for any level of government authority they would be

Supporting a sinner, but there are certain Sinful activities that bring reproach upon the church that bring reproach upon Christians and Especially in in this light it would be in regard to our discernment

When we are aggressively evangelizing the lost and proclaiming the gospel if we are to support political candidates that and it appears that the fervor through which or by which we are doing that is is basically matched by the same passion and fervor that we have with spreading the gospel if that candidate turns out to be an enormous detriment or Or Jeopardizes the safety of our nation in some

Catastrophic way those that have heard our gospel message are going to view us as either being

Horrific in our ability to discern or they will just view us as liars

How do you how do you respond to that? And as I said all due respect to Mike Huckabee I don't mean to put you in an uncomfortable spot

But even if it wasn't Mike Huckabee, if it was somebody else, how would you handle that issue?

Several things there First I agree with everything In fact, you must have read my book through a couple times to get to that I use the word

I fell in a Obscure dictionary of word

I think it's found twice on the Internet and one of them is my book As far as a review

Patriot patriarchy If that is the worship of politics, hmm, or the worship of Gone to the extreme.

Yeah. Now I mentioned in my book that in America the first Forty to sixty years in most

Men could not run for office. They were they were allowed

So You'll find

I don't either But I think they were right on that point and then where you made

I think the most sense when he's talked about our witness is Vote for who you want to vote for.

I mean a lot of things about it, but we better be careful what we say publicly in the

And if we appear to be lined up with them and we just defend the indefensible, I Am very bothered by a number of and I was named in either

Right. I'm bothered by a number of Christian leaders who have publicly

Defended some of the things Again You know

Yes Yes, I would obviously agree with you on that wholeheartedly then the other thing that is

Disturbing to me is that there are Christians in the media

Who say very? disparaging And insulting and and perhaps even slanderous things even though they're not mentioning people by name but Really demeaning the character of their brethren in Christ who are voting for third -party candidates because according to their conscience

They cannot vote for either of the two major candidates in the two major parties

They are voting for if they are able to where they live voting for a

Christian that they know not only has the Moral character of somebody worthy of an office such as the president

The presidency, but also they agree with their their platform. They agree with their you know, they're the policies that they

Are just basically desiring to set forth as as a president of the

United States and so on and I have heard from Fellow Christians brothers in Christ in the media

That we are wimpy whiny mamby -pamby bedwetters

Because we think that Donald Trump is not an appropriate candidate for an high and lofty office that is nicknamed the leader of the free world the president of the

United States and Do you think that that is a proper way for Fellow Christians to be speaking of their brethren in Christ who are following their conscience before God in this issue

Because I find myself Between them I'm trying to keep the third party and they orders from attacking

Unchristianly the Trump voters. I'm trying to keep the Trump voters from attacking the non -voters the non -voters and the third party voters

They're just trading sometimes profanity and vulgarity and That's just wrong.

I don't have to say it, but you're absolutely correct Elections should not be dividing

Christian They can vote for different people, but you shouldn't be dividing them the way that it is

And I have one. I have one other reason. I think that's true and this might be one of the things that Who does not offend you?

But it's probably one of those Controversial things in the book and that is

I have a chapter where I talk about I Sure, there's your vote count

At chapter 19, I just voted but who's counting I Don't buy the argument that a presidential vote matters.

Look Barack Barack Obama won by eight and a half million votes his first time through if I had voted for I don't even remember now if I voted for McCain or not, but I think

I did but And it's kind of like a

Saying we give it we gave to everybody to make them feel good, but it's one reason we fight so much think

Next door neighbor to vote for Trump or not vote for Trump. It's gonna make it different to win not by him you mentioned earlier about The earthquake opening up, you know,

I compare that our vote counting with Winning the million -dollar lottery and getting struck by lightning on the same day

Well Well wouldn't those who would Be convinced that every vote counts

Wouldn't their retort be to you that well if everybody or the majority of Christians thought that way we would have every election for certain lost to somebody who despises

Christ and the Principles he has set forth in his word. I Would quickly say what the every vote count every vote matters count the meme on that Right about Yes, it's very very astute there

Now the thing that You are also as we have already said a theologically reformed

Christian as I am. I am actually somewhat shocked by brothers in Christ Who perhaps even on either side of this issue

Act as if God has somehow gone on vacation from his throne and the future of America is in our hands

Yeah, yeah In fact, my very first chapter where I said, you know, that's been selected I actually cited five times in American history where The people we elected did not run did not service president there've been two elections where The popular but at least to popular vote

I do not win in electoral politics. They didn't win So the one we voted for was not really elected and Then there was the president that got pneumonia at Durden and overall afraid and died within a month we didn't get the

President that we wanted dead One last example

I gave was Gerald Ford Gerald Ford which was not a vice president before I mean

We didn't vote for him as a vice president And we didn't vote for him as president.

He became president when You're lagging resigned

Richard Nixon resigned But we didn't vote for him for president and when we got a chance to vote for Yes, we did well, actually,

I think I was too young to vote at that time, but You you have a very fascinating title that I don't know if this is anything to do with the difference between a

Democracy and a republic but you have the rule of a thousand tyrants if you could explain that Anybody and we want to rule everybody so most of it actually had a lot of and a lot of tyranny in us and our

American culture right now because of the Kang nature Both are on the increase

Anarchy is increasing tyranny is increasing now, this is quite a humorous title for a chapter which actually skipped over accidentally, but people may find find me even more strange than they thought that I found it humorous, but The title is whenever I kill somebody it's not my fault

You can explain that well Articles on various killers or mass murder

And it seemed like on every case and every time it was folks who's given they

Something in their childhood or they were on drugs or the world didn't treat them, right?

Or it just it was never the fault of the person it was that some

Christians blame the television shows that the guy watched and and and the leftist blamed the ownership of guns and so Nobody's forced to take responsibility

And that's kind of way around in this chapter Because of the fall of man

We are all trying to get around Take your responsibility for our own actions.

The ultimate example was would be some serial killers I find in that book the most famous or not the most famous most prolific

Mass murder in history at least up until last year In a school

He killed 56 students in the school was that that the Columbine murders or not sure

No much earlier no, I can't I can't remember right off the top of my head here

A 55 year old school board member and building maintenance man Andrew Tito Blew up a school in 1927.

Okay, obviously long before my time Yeah, mine too. I know it but He killed his wife and all his farm animals first And he planted dynamite in the basement when he was working there

But when he went to the school to finish off the deal by blowing up his own car and killing himself wrote on a sign on his pen that Criminals are made not born hmm interesting

Before he did the crime he's blaming somebody else, right? Yeah outside forces his upbringing, you know all that kind of thing

Now if you could if you'd like to and if you're able if you could

I mentioned something Just a few moments ago that I mistook as being something behind the rule of a thousand tyrants

The many people if not, most people or the your average person thinks that the

United States is a democracy But we're really a republic. Are we not? Yeah, but I tell you

As a practical matter, I Don't think it makes much difference.

I mean it would make a difference if we can ideally make a republic and not democracy I mean

One example you go back to is the election of senators used to be done by the state

That was the way of ensuring the Republic, right? And I think they changed that and so I Mean, I may not get it all but I really don't think that issue is one to really

The harp on Because I don't think we have what looks like a republic would be

Yeah, well, there's a lot of things that have Mutated in regard to this country and our government and so on that are nothing even close to resembling

What our father the founding father is I'm sure envisioned I Don't think we can get that back in the bottle, right?

You have it you have another chapter title that Is also quite you're very good at titling chapters by the way, we all wear straight jackets

If you could explain Well If We would

But God restrains us He uses our conscience

He uses our parents our government Circumstances All kinds of things

To put straight jackets on us to keep us from Doing all that we would want to do because we are sinners

Only one that really makes them different at all is that when he puts his spirit in us and Our sins are applied

To any of us on the cross That will change it, but you'll still have all those then and You'll still need restraint

That is one of the best restraints You know

You admit you probably have heard the quote by John Adams that our

Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate

To the government of any other What is your opinion about the

United States Constitution and In light of what we see in our nation today.

I mean where you have people even the one of our two candidates for presidency

Hillary Clinton Seemingly unashamed or disturbed in any significant way about her rallying aggressively and enthusiastically behind a woman's alleged

Right to murder her nine -month -old child And and you know partial birth abortion, which

I'm one of the things that I really lament about last night's debate

Is that Chris Wallace did not ask Hillary Clinton to? describe in her understanding of what partial birth abortion was

What what was specifically occurring? during that procedure and Because it would have been very interesting to hear what she had to say because it was really

You know Donald Trump was talking about the the baby a nine -month -old baby being ripped from the the womb

More accurately. He should have said something like, you know stabbed in the skull or ripped apart but Hillary Clinton was not put on the spot to actually describe what she believes is going on in that procedure

But but as far as the Constitution is concerned and John Adams quote The can can this even be an effective guide for us any longer

And regardless whether it's democracy or republic the problem is my book

Our system of government works this way Candidates have to get the popular vote

And if you more sinners than are not sinners Which are all sinners they are going to appeal for a basis intake

To get the vote There's a promise thing Even though they can't give them.

There's a promise of things they won't do But that they will do George Bush the first read pilots, so I think we were

Destined might be the wrong word But we were bound to head this way by The fact that we're sinners and We have to go to a break right now

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages with more discussion of With Christ in the voting booth.

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that's wrbc .us Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

Apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 528 575 0 that's 508 528 575 0 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

TV program Entitled resting in grace. You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org

That's Providence Baptist Church ma org or even on sermon audio calm Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in today our guest for the full two hours with an hour to go is

David J Shedlock the author of with Christ in the voting booth our email address

If you have a question for David is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

And as always, please give us your first name city and state and country of residence Unless you are compelled to remain anonymous.

We will honor that request So having said everything that we were discussing about the nature of man, which not only involves

Everyone in the voting public, but every single candidate that is running for any office.

We're all sinners and apart from Christ totally depraved if you're Theologically reformed like you and I are in fact, you're totally depraved whether you're reformed or not

But we happen to just have a biblical a biblically correct Understanding of the nature of man

How then should we govern? well That's that's a short chapter.

Basically. I say what the founders of our country did, right? They had the balance of power

Checks and balances which really was in Thomas Jefferson's mind way to Restrained in the wicked impulse now,

I don't Notion that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. He certainly was not

But he did recognize the idea that So he's kind of laid out this idea of the balance of powers and checks and balances and that is important because you know if If giving the government

Government with the least amount of power because a government power be led by sinner and that can do a lot more harm than You know then your average

Now you have two chapters that are very much at the heart of Of the the dispute or the divide between Two groups of patriotic

Even if you want to use the term conservative, although Some within this group one of these groups would not really

Want to identify as a conservative not because they're liberal or leftist, but because they believe that there's nothing left to conserve

But and I'm talking about the divide between those that are more classically conservative and tend to vote

Republican and those that are Christians and libertarians, and I'm not speaking of those libertarians like the the presidential candidate running for the

Libertarian Party Gary Johnson, who is very giddy and excited about giving women more freedom to kill their babies in the womb and you know is very excited about giving those who want more and more freedom to Be involved in their homosexual activity or other sexual deviant behavior in any way shape or form

Any time anywhere any place and not have any consequences legally behind that You know and even in fact

Gary Johnson for according to some libertarian purists paleo

Libertarians or more of the old -school classic libertarians They would say that he's not even really libertarian because of his views on More gun control and things like that that seem to defy

Libertarianism but having said that I'm speaking about Those who believe in biblical morality those who are on fire for the

Lord and the gospel they would be just as opposed to abortion and to the

Deviant sexual behaviors that the the scriptures prohibit and in fact that are even damning but they have a different understanding on the role of the government in regard to enforcing certain laws and so on now the

Christian libertarians that I know and respect believe that abortion is something that the government should be prohibiting because it involves the murder of an innocent citizen of this country that the they would view the unborn as humans because they are and These humans have rights and their liberties are being snuffed out

Very often by very selfish parents, but the the whole issue of these two chapters that you've have government two sizes too small and government two sizes too big if you could explain those and Also give your thoughts on the differences between classic conservatism and republicanism if you will and the the

Bible believing Christian libertarians Okay, those two chapters are right on track with what those two chapters are dealing with.

It's very difficult to pigeonhole whole groups of people. All libertarians don't look at things the same way.

All conservative republicans, all Christians, all liberals. I'm a little bit blank at helping people with this.

I had somebody the other day who was a conservative Christian and he was debating on Facebook with a an atheist who happens to be a friend of mine who

I've been trying to lead to Christ but he he called him a stinking idiot but I could smell him he said

I could smell him he called him a what I'm sorry because we have somewhat of a problem with the the

Google phone connection but can you repeat that? a stinking a stinking liberal okay and he got involved or two but my point is the tension between the economic conservatives or libertarians and the socially libertarians they tend to go hand in hand but you can certainly be one without the other you can believe in almost total economic freedom but not believe you have the right to be a or have the sanction of marriage between a man and a man right a lot of the issue with the same sex marriage which is an oxymoron because it's not a marriage you have to redefine what marriage is to even use that term and believe that it's an actual thing but I am and I'm sure that many

Christians would be much more concerned over the fact that the government is forcing all of us to recognize that that union between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is a marriage we're more concerned about that than we are about what people do in the privacy of their own homes and lives you know do

I want a legal restriction against two men who in their own apostate church have some ceremony where they are declared a husband and wife and or if they have some kind of a gathering in their backyard where somebody waves a magic wand over them and says that they're husband and wife, now obviously as Christians we must be opposed to that kind of behavior because it's damning and you're not doing any favors to those people by commending them or supporting them or celebrating what they're doing, you have to if you are a bible believing

Christian oppose it but the whole issue of whether the government has any business in that is entirely a different question and so would you agree that the issue is more how we as Christians are being in many ways and in the future a lot more ways forced to celebrate this depravity or we will lose our livelihoods perhaps or perhaps even wind up in the future not only with astronomical fines but go to prison?

Well I don't believe persecution is caused by Christians, let me throw out right off saying that I will say however that we prepared our nation for this when we failed to uphold

Christian marriage the way we should have been whether it's sex outside of marriage or pornography or divorce that God hates and I've been divorced and I hate now but we have it's very difficult for us to point fingers and say your marriage your lives seem to be like ours but ours aren't very much to be copied and so I think there's a real risk there and also

I don't think I don't think that homosexual is an enemy he is a mission field we've got the mentality that the world is against us and they are but the solution to that is to lead them to Christ Yes I would agree but are they not in some senses both because if you are an enemy of the gospel and an enemy of the scriptures and what the scriptures mandate aren't you an enemy of Christ and his people?

Sure but yeah but they can't stop the gospel

I talked about that in my book I'm sorry can you repeat that?

I'm sorry because of the Google phone connection it didn't come through very clear Yeah they will not be able to stop the gospel

Yes right the only way they'll stop the gospel is if we stop preaching the gospel

Yes amen Men cannot thwart God's sovereign control over all things and we cannot thwart, hinder or destroy his plans

Right The next chapter can I mention that?

I'm sorry can you repeat that? Yes the next three chapters

I think are the most important in the book The next three chapters are the most important in the book would that be government too important the separation of faith and state and is

America a Christian nation are those the chapters you're thinking of? Yes Those are geared towards the

Christian If you could explain First of all

I mentioned earlier Patriology I think Christians in particular have put way too much stock in politics they spend their energy and I understand some people are called to do that running for office or supporting a candidate or anything like that too many

Christians their whole lives are wrapped up in reading the newspaper and following these things on Facebook and their lives are filled with fear because Hillary Clinton might win the election somehow

God has left us you said that earlier Hillary Clinton becomes president

Just to repeat what you said Mayo may not leave our country under his judgment but he's not left his church

Amen You were saying that even if Hillary Clinton were to be elected

God has not left his throne in fact he raises up evil leaders to judge nations, doesn't he?

Sure Sure The separation of faith and state is along the same lines but the last chapter there is

America a Christian nation I come to the conclusion it is not and never was

Yeah, American exceptionalism is another thing that the church has been involved in supporting

Do you think that is also a dangerous understanding of our role in history and our significance globally?

Yeah I think a certain balance is possible there There's no doubt that God blessed this country with many blessings

He blessed them with peace and prosperity and some of it had to do with some of the things that the founders decided but they weren't most of them were not

Christians most of them weren't it's not some have said that they were almost all

Christians they weren't and they didn't give us a Christian government they didn't bow to Jesus the constitution doesn't say we're a

Christian nation that's the ruling document Well there is though there seems to be from what we read in the writings of our founding fathers and not even those that were involved in the declaration of independence or the constitution but even a couple of centuries earlier when this country was first being populated by Christians there seems to at least be obviously a reverence and honor for God and basically speaking as if it is a given fact that He exists reigns and rules whereas today there is it just seems to be 180 degrees opposed or on the opposite side of the spectrum in regard to a true and genuine reverence for God and His word

I'm not disputing the fact that providence and all the things that God has blessed us and given us good things and so on the reason for the chapter is very simple the only

Christian nation Can you repeat that again because you faded out with the google phone there yes the only

Christian nation is the church the church is the only Christian nation as Peter very clearly describes us that's right a holy priesthood and a royal nation and so on the the

God chapter 12 God is King if you could explain further because I understand that that there that was a very passionate battle cry if you will by many who were involved in the war of independence commonly known as the revolutionary war that there was no king but Christ and obviously the

British throne had a king and the kings of England and globally have a tendency to take upon themselves the attributes of God and demand some sort of adulation that would be reserved only for God if you're a

Christian but if you could comment about God as King that chapter is a little bit of review but I would consider that chapter a call to worship

God as King and I'm assuming by that we should also as we have been repeating throughout this interview we should never forget that he is

King no matter what the outcome of what is occurring around us right

Jesus rules now one of the things going back to your comments on the fact that you don't believe that this nation ever was a

Christian nation and certainly is not now some might cringe when they hear that because they think that you are just turning over or desiring to see that this nation is just turned over to those who are enemies of Christ and his word and his gospel and basically that you would like nothing more than to see us become we are already a pluralistic nation but just that you would acquiesce to the fact that that's a reality and not be at all disturbed by that how do you respond to that?

well the first response would be when I told that other lady what has having that kind of respect and belief that we're a

Christian nation done for us lightly I'm sorry could you repeat that again?

yeah what is the view that we're a Christian nation done for us lightly

I see what you're saying secondly I would say while many of our laws reflect the old testament civil law we're back to the problem with we're sinners and we can't have a nation of sinners be

Christians unbelievers are not a Christian nation right as far as one of the most butchered and twisted and misused concepts that would be the separation of church and state the liberals often take that to mean that those who are

Christians and they usually are only referring to Christians actually they're only referring to conservative

Christians who actually believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures and so on that we have no right to bring our faith into the political arena there are a lot of liberals and leftists who think that that is the idea behind it and they also think that that is some kind of a constitutional amendment or something but that was really just Thomas Jefferson that came from Thomas Jefferson's trying to assure

Baptists that the nation the founding fathers envisioned was not going to establish a religion like England had done isn't that really more what and that they as Baptists didn't have to fear it's actually the opposite of what liberals think that the

Baptists did not have to fear the government thwarting or trying to restrict their beliefs and their practices right that's my understanding also right so don't you believe that Christians their faith is something that has to be a part of everything that they do now obviously if you own a grocery store your understanding of the mode and subjects of baptism is not going to be something that has to come into your governing a grocery store but the moral principles certainly do that are commanded in scripture oh yeah don't take the chapter that I wrote on not faith and state

I believe in the separation of church and state I certainly don't believe in the separation of faith and state uh

I believe Christians I have a chapter called Christians vote with their Bibles open uh they vote with their

Bibles open you know everybody votes their religion the unbeliever is voting his religion the unbeliever is voting for what he thinks is most important in life so everybody votes their religion so why can't

Christians vote his religion their religion right yeah I can recall the most absurd uh one of the most absurd statements from Bill Clinton years ago when he was running for office and uh a woman who was professing to be a

Christian was interviewing him and she asked him about his view of the

Bible and he said you know I love I love the Bible the Bible's my favorite book it's the most important book to me

I cherish it uh but I have to say that I don't have to as president use the

Bible uh and the teachings in the Bible in my role as the president now that's to me absolutely ridiculous because how could you believe something is true and especially obviously when it comes to the

Bible that has to do with your your decision making and your understanding of what is right and wrong and what is moral and immoral what is good and what is evil how is that not to be a part of the very fabric of how you govern a nation if you're a political leader right right

I agree with you but we're going to our final break right now if you'd like to join us on the air this is your last opportunity we've got a half hour left our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail dot com we do have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered and we hope to get to you before the program is over if you'd like to join them with questions of your own again our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com chrisarnsen at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages

I am chris arnsen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of r c sprawls book relationship between church and state

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Chris Arnn's in here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend, Dr. James White, to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the

Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation. I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, DA Carson, Votie Balcombe, Conrad M.

Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what

G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there. And I hope that many of you listening do join me at the

G3 conference. And remember, their website, if you'd like to register, is g3conference .com.

g3conference .com. Please mention that you heard about the G3 conference on Iron Sharpens Iron radio if you register.

And I want to thank the publishers of the New American Standard Bible for sponsoring this ad campaign for the

G3 conference. And for more details on the New American Standard Bible, go to nasbible .com.

nasbible .com. The New American Standard Bible, the publishers of which have been sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron since its inception in 2006. So we thank them for all they do and we will always be in their debt and thank

God for the publishers of the New American Standard Bible. We have

RJ in Westchester County, Long Island, who has a question for our guest.

RJ says that should we ever, as a

Christian in leadership such as a pastor or somebody who is the president of a well -known parachurch organization, publicly endorse any candidate with any kind of passion or aggression because of the fact that we are watering down what our responsibilities are, and that is to spread the gospel.

I tend to agree with the writers. I think especially pastors have a duty to their flock in nonpartisan politics.

That they should deal with issues, absolutely. But what if you've got

Republicans and Democrats in your congregation? Are you just going to eliminate half of them?

Well, I'm assuming... And we've already talked about how Christian leaders better watch who they're representing as a great candidate because the mud that's thrown at them will fall on us, which will fall on Christ.

I'm assuming when you said that a pastor should be nonpartisan in regard to politics, I'm assuming, and I believe that you did say this, you're not referring to issues like a pastor is supposed to be on the fence regarding the murder of unborn children or of the sin of homosexuality or a number of other things.

Absolutely. He should speak out on those things. Right. And because those things transcend politics.

These are things that are either commanded or forbidden in the Bible. Yeah, and we're almost past the time where politics will solve even those problems.

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? Yes, I think we're past the day when politics will save this country and help eliminate those problems.

Right. And by the way, RJ, give us your address and your full mailing address and we will get you a free copy of the book

With Christ in the Voting Booth by David J. Shedlock. Isn't that the irony that we are facing is that there are many

Bible -believing Christians, even some who share our theology of the doctrines of sovereign grace, reformed theology, who may even unconsciously, and I would be certain that it would be unconsciously if they were in our theological camp and genuinely born again, but they are looking to the elected officials of the government in a sense as some kind of a messiah.

You said a mouthful. Did I say a mouthful that was true or false in your opinion?

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, there's this is my prayer that because of this year's election cycle that many, many

Christians who have had that temptation before them will begin to throw it off more and more that it's not the solution.

In fact, there's a I talk about an evil kind of evangelism.

If your evangelism of your neighbor is so that he'll vote Republican or vote for your issues, that's wrong.

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? Sure, if you try to win your neighbors to Christ because they'll vote the way you want them to, that's a poor motive for leading them to Christ.

Yes, of course. Yes, I want you to become a Christian so you can vote for this reprobate candidate.

It doesn't make sense. Now one thing that I have really gleaned from my discussions with and viewing and hearing liberals, or should

I say Christians or at least professing Christians who are political liberals, they are liberal in their politics, not necessarily in the way that they interpret scripture, is that they believe that the liberal approach to government and welfare policies and all those kinds of things are more representative of the compassion of Christ upon those less fortunate than us, the poor, the disabled.

You could go on and on, people who have greater challenges than we do in our lives.

But those who are on the conservative end of the spectrum who are

Christians, would they be correct in saying that I have a passion and a compassion for those less fortunate just as much as you do, but the way that a liberal is envisioning approaching this subject, it really boils down to stealing from other people to fund these charitable policies and programs and welfare policies.

Because you are forcing people against their will to pay for someone else's plight being lessened in this life.

And that is not what the scriptures condone at all. I mean, it even fosters not only the actual stealing, but the coveting of your neighbor's wealth, doesn't it?

Yeah, there are several scriptures that warn us about these kinds of things, warn us about laziness, warn us about envy, which is just bad greed.

But I think I would hesitate to describe all kinds of welfare as stealing.

I think the Bible does have a sort of compassion. The scriptures were to have a compassion for the weak and the ill and so on.

And I'm not sure I'm prepared to say it's always stealing in that case. Yeah, I wouldn't either say that it's always stealing, but what

I mean is that individuals and churches are the ones that are basically commanded to provide for the less fortunate and especially amongst the body of Christ.

But the issue is, is that the government's role? And because you also have included in that the evil people in places of authority picking and choosing what charitable venues that your money must go to, like for instance

Planned Parenthood. You know, I mean, we are supporting with our taxpayer dollars an organization that is responsible for the murder of countless millions of unborn babies and in actuality, which is amazing, nobody talks about it, or very few do, but an organization that had as its goal by its founder,

Margaret Sanger, an avowed racist and it's very easily documented, documentable, verifiable, that she was a racist and in fact had

Nazis prior to World War II contributing to her magazine and she wanted the black race and other minority races removed from the face of the earth through sterilization programs.

And of course, she also believed in abortion, although it wasn't legal when she was alive.

But Planned Parenthood, the organization that she founded, became the chief organization for the murder of unborn children in our country.

And here we are being forced to contribute to a charity through our taxes because the government views that as a vital charity for the well -being of women.

Well, I look at that as hired assassins. It's not welfare.

It's not charity. It's the killing of our fellow citizens, as you pointed out.

I think motive comes back to motive. The funnest chapter

I did, there was a section on the teens that split when

Israel and Judah split and some of the back and forth between them between tyranny and taxes and all that.

And I tried to pick some analogies. I mean, we're seeking that out in the book. But motive comes into it here.

I'm afraid that many Christians are more worried about their taxes than they are the unborn children. In other words, they're more worried about losing a portion of their income than they are about unborn children.

Is that what you mean? Yes. Right, obviously. Yes, it can be both.

I mean, you can be believing that you never keep more of your own money and believing it's going to kill more babies.

But the fervor with which we support candidates who will not stop the birth of unborn children, but will lower our taxes, it's hard to believe.

It's that big, but it is. Well, I definitely want to, before I go to a couple of other people who are waiting to have their questions asked,

I would like, and answered of course, I would like you to give some of the primary things that you want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we run out of time.

So before I go to a couple more audience questions, I'd like you to basically summarize those things.

I think I summarize it by saying we need to vote or not vote as Christians.

We can't say that the Bible doesn't affect us and be

Christians. We don't look to the government to be our savior.

We look to our Lord Jesus Christ to save us, and he will save us. And we can have confidence in him.

We should not fear Hillary Clinton. We should not fear Donald Trump. What can man do to us,

Jesus said? They can take our stuff, they can kill our bodies, but they cannot touch our soul, which the

Lord owns. Amen. Amen.

Amen. We do have an anonymous listener who wants to know that is it wrong for a

Christian to try to stop his brethren in Christ from voting for either of the candidates that we have running?

It's not wrong or right. It's fruitless. Well, to be more detailed, would it be, in your opinion, wrong for a

Christian to say if you vote for Donald Trump, you're sinning because the man is a danger to our future and a laughingstock, and if you vote for Hillary Clinton, you're sinning because you must have some selfish motivation that her welfare or some other program is benefiting you, and here she is applauding and aggressively trying to secure the legalization of all kinds of infanticide.

I'm sorry, Chris. A third person would come in and say you're sinning by not voting for Donald Trump because you're a dictatorial candidate.

There's plenty of accusing you. I'm not here to call people sinners. We're all sinners.

I'm not here to judge you. But I'm calling you to serve the scripture. Let them be your guide.

Amen. And that is obviously always the truth is that we are to have the scriptures govern all that we say and do.

And I do, though, believe that and I believe I asked you this earlier on that I believe that a person can be sinning in their vote due to the motivation of why they're doing it.

I think the opposite could be true also. In the old testament when the

Sabbath and the Passover had not been celebrated, they allowed some of the priests to serve even though they were not clean.

And there are times in which we may do the right thing for the wrong reason, but we can do the wrong thing at least somewhat for the right reason.

That is, the people who are saying don't vote for Hillary, don't vote third party because you put

Hillary in, I don't have a challenge to the sincerity of that. They genuinely don't want

Hillary to be president. I'm not going to call that a sin. Other people are saying you can't vote for Trump because he's such and such and such, but those people believe that voting for him is a chance to stop

Hillary. So I wouldn't call that a sin. By the way, anonymous listener, if you provide me your name and mailing address, you will also get a free copy of With Christ in the

Voting Booth by our guest David Shedlock, and we will keep your identity anonymous as you have requested, but just send it to me and I will have that shipped out to you.

Sorry, I had to cough there. Yes. Yes. Can I get a copy of that book?

It sounds really good. Yes, you can.

I have a question in regard to something that I keep hearing that upsets me.

Excuse me, all of a sudden my throat is scratchy here, so I apologize. But I keep hearing in defense of rallying behind Donald Trump, and once again,

I'm not vilifying everybody that is voting for Donald Trump, and I haven't really 100 % made up my mind on whether I'm not going to vote for Donald Trump.

But when I see Christians and pastors say that I'm not voting for pastor of the

United States, and one pastor in Texas even will say I'm not voting for Sunday school teacher of the

United States. I'm voting for a president. And they will often accompany that with language that would indicate that they think that somebody who is qualified to be a

Sunday school teacher or a pastor wouldn't be bold or strong enough to adequately fill the role of a pastor.

They somehow have given into the pagan understanding of a

Christian man that he is in some way weaker or too much of a pacifist or he's too loving or whatever the case is to adequately have such an important role.

I mean even Christian pastors themselves seem to be mocking the requirements for those roles, even as Sunday school teacher, mocking those requirements if they are being applied to a president.

I just wanted to read to you 1 Timothy chapter 3, a portion of that, where Paul is telling

Timothy, it is a trustworthy statement, if any man aspires to be the office, to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

An overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity.

But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he then take care of the church of God?

And not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Deacons, likewise, must be men of dignity, not double -tongued, not addicted to much wine, or fond of assorted gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

These men must also first be tested, and then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

Why on earth would a person who is a Christian, especially a

Christian leader, who is rallying behind a political candidate, why would that be weird or ridiculous to insist that those moral character traits are a part of the life and the heart and mind of a person who is going to be the most powerful leader in government in the

United States? I don't even understand why that would be mocked or viewed as ridiculous, because if you replace church with nation, and the requirements that Paul is laying out,

I mean, these are just basic moral principles about somebody who's going to be an overseer over anyone.

Am I off base there? Yeah, the Bible's full of places where it talks about the character of leaders in a civil realm.

There would be men without and every single one of them would be deacons and elders. So, I took the conclusion that Christians are free to vote for Christians.

Christians are free to vote for Christians? Is that what you just said? Yeah. Now, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Are they free to vote for non -Christians? Well, what I say is, people say the same thing you were saying, is that, oh, you can't vote for a

Christian. They wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't have an army. They wouldn't do that. And I'm saying, right, and obviously

I, well, maybe it's not that obvious, but I believe a man, a Christian, in good conscience, without sinning, could vote or support a non -Christian.

But the issue is, does he have the kind of a character that is described here by Paul, that if God, through his divine inspiration, had the

Holy Bible inherently handed down to us, and that's the list of requirements that God thinks are important for somebody to lead, it just seems to me that even if a man is not a

Christian, if we are going to aggressively and enthusiastically and zealously and publicly support him, that he should have at least these requirements.

I'm not talking about those that go into the quiet of the voting booth with the curtains drawn and with sadness vote for somebody that they are viewing as the lesser of two evils.

I'm just talking about people who are letting the world know that they think this is the ideal candidate.

That's the difference, I think. Yeah. In 1996, the cry of the

Republican was, character matters. Don't vote against Clinton.

Character matters. I don't hear any Republican saying that. You're right.

And I want to thank you so much for being on the program today. I'm thoroughly delighted with our discussion and looking forward to a return by you on the program.

If anybody is interested in ordering this book, you can go to calvarypress .com.

C -A -L -V -A -R -Y Press dot com. You can also go to our sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

C -V for Cumberland Valley. B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com and order it there.

And do you have any contact information that you care to share with our listeners? They can go to Facebook and type in With Christ in the

Voting Booth. I have a Facebook page. So go to Facebook and type in With Christ in the

Voting Booth on Facebook. Well, thank you so much, brother. I look forward to you returning. I want to thank all of you who participated in the program with your questions and all of you who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.