The Decline of Mormonism, John 17:5 and a Lot of Replies to Critics

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White coming to you another road trip

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Dividing Line, extended road trip by one day, hopefully,

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Lord willing. Looked at the distance today and said, Nah, wasn't wise when

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I chose to try to do that so we are cutting things back a little bit. And so we are at 6 ,000.

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Yeah, I don't think it's actually 6 ,500 feet. I've got a really cool thing in my phone. We are currently.

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This is only 5711 that doesn't make any sense. Anyways, we're at Cedar City, Utah, and it's pretty here, and it's much, much, much warmer than it was when

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I was here. I think it was three weeks ago. That about right? Sounds about right. I've been gone that long.

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Yeah, I have. Anyway, was right here at this park and it's nice and easy to find and I managed to sneak in.

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So here we are. Up here in Utah, we are in southern Utah and I need to understand southern

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Utah is a world unto itself. I remember when we first drove up here, we crossed the border into Utah and we felt like we were entering into foreign missions work at that particular point in time.

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And in many ways, we were. And you have a lot of what the frequently called

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Jack Mormons in southern Utah. They're cultural. And as you probably may know, they could be far more emotional about things because they don't really practice it, but it's something that they identify themselves by.

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Certainly, you had a lot of polygamist groups down in this area big time.

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And so it's a very, very, very difficult area to plant churches in.

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That's why when we had 100 people show up for my talk on the Trinity three weeks ago, that was huge.

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It was massive, very encouraging to the Christians here. And so it's fitting in this area to be to take a few moments to talk about just a massive shift and change that has been seen in Mormonism just over the past 15 years.

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Every time Brother Wallace sends me more articles from what's going on in Salt Lake City and in Mormonism.

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At first, I was just stunned because I was standing outside the temple in Salt Lake City when the first gay

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Mormons group showed up and I saw what kind of reaction that they got.

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And I remember thinking at the time, well, that's one perspective that could never make much headway in Mormonism because in Mormon theology,

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God is a physical gendered being. He's got all the equipment and it works.

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And so does his wife and all the other wives. And they have little spirit babies and little spirit diapers and everything else.

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And so one group that will not give in on this.

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And of course, this was back in the, when was that? Early 90s, mid 90s?

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I forget exactly when it was that they showed up. But I think late 90s.

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This would be the one group that's going to stand firm. I was completely wrong. And it's obvious now in hindsight why that was.

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In fact, it's fairly obvious. Just because you have a gender deity, it looks like you.

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Acts like you. Once was you. You're the same kind of being. You're the same genus and species.

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Same category in Mormonism. Just at a different level of exaltation. You don't have a coherent, historical, and most important, objective theological foundation to pass that on to the next generation.

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And so there has always been. Well, it's an interesting contrast.

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It's an interesting contradiction. There is a text in the Book of Mormon. I forget where it is.

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Maybe someone can grab it for me and send it to me. There's a text in the

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Book of Mormon where God promises people that if they will defend the truth, basically, that God will give them victory in those debates.

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And the early Mormons took that seriously. The early Mormon missionaries looked to have public debates when they would go into towns and the

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American frontier. And why not? Nobody, you know, until E .D.

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Howe wrote his book, Mormonism Unveiled, in the middle 1830s.

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And, of course, the vast majority of Christians never saw it, even during his life. How could anyone even know what in the world the

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Mormons were saying, let alone be prepared to respond to them in any overly compelling fashion?

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And so early on, Mormonism was much more, well, like it was in the 1980s when

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I first started counting Mormon missionaries and studying Mormonism. I think

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Bruce R. McConkie was probably one of the last apostles that really reflected the old -style

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Mormonism, the old Orthodox Mormonism. He was bold, clear, understandable, and wasn't overly concerned about nuancing things, put it that way.

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And the fact that today you can hear so many young missionaries just dismiss

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McConkie or not even know who in the world he was, tells you a lot about where Mormonism has gone, especially in the post -Gordon

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Hinckley era. I don't know this, but I would have a gut feeling that Hinckley and McConkie did not get along very well at all.

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So you have that, we have the truth element in historic

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Mormonism, but that all was somewhat inconsistent with and contradictory to the very subjective nature of the

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Mormon testimony, for example. And what has happened,

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I think, is the subjective element has outrun the objective element by a long shot.

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And what you have now is a system that is simply unraveling.

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It has no leadership, it has no direction, and it seems to be completely incapable of defending itself against cultural onslaught.

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Oh, sounds like liberal Mormonism. Isn't it interesting? They reorganized the

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RLDS church, which many decades ago was a force to be reckoned with.

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They had missionaries, and they made arguments for their understanding of the Book of Mormon and things like that, and their version of the

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Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Commandments. What happened to them? Interestingly enough, they've become, in essence, a liberal

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Protestant denomination. I mean, you can never be truly Protestant as long as you have extra scriptures and things like that, but that's what's taken place in that context.

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And so it doesn't surprise me. Thank you. Someone listening live.

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You know, I actually have to bring that up on my phone. Let's see if my secret source out there was right about the text here.

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I was given a reference to look up. I don't want

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Book of Mormon, I want the Doctrine and Covenants. And I thought it was in the

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Book of Mormon, to be honest with you, but it could be in the Doctrine and Covenants. I thought there was something a little more direct than that, but that's certainly relevant.

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But thank you for that. Anyway, you really have to wonder what's going to happen.

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I mean, you have a system with billions and billions and billions of dollars stashed away.

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And, for example, they are, in essence, rebuilding the Salt Lake City Temple right now.

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But most people don't know. What I found out on my trip up here, and I can't tell you all my sources, but a couple of years ago, 2020,

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I believe it was, there were a number of earthquakes in the Salt Lake City area, primarily out in Magna. But there was a big one in Salt Lake City.

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Remember, Moroni fell off the temple. Well, they downplayed all that, but the reality is that place almost went down.

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And they are, in essence, rebuilding the Salt Lake City Temple from the inside out. They have to.

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It's the very symbol of Mormonism. And they are digging down, and they are, evidently, there are tunnels, massive tunnels under that building going different directions, which may be part of the problem of its instability.

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But they are rebuilding that place from the inside out. I actually have a chunk of the temple.

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I should have brought it over here in one of the drawers over there. It was taken out from the coring that they're doing, the granite.

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And so I know some people who've been in it and seen what's going on. It's not just renovation.

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It is fundamentally rebuilding that building while keeping it standing. They're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do this, and they have it.

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They've got the money. But what do you do when you have a massive organization, and you basically, it becomes decapitated?

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I mean, the current prophet's, what, 97? He's like 97. And this has been one of the biggest problems, is the system that developed under Brigham Young.

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I don't think Joseph Smith intended this at all. But the system that's developed under Brigham Young curses the church to be constantly led by a doddering old man.

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And they're stuck with it. And to talk to a

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Mormon today and compare it to what it was like, because see, back in the, say, in the early 90s,

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I would give talks on Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and what I would do is I would say, when you deal with Mormons, you have to have this broad, you know,

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I draw a long, thin rectangle. Lots and lots of subjects, but you don't have to know it super in depth.

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And then I'd turn that on its side, and that's what it's like dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses. Narrow range of subjects, you really need to know it in depth.

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You could, you know, when I wrote letters to a Mormon elder, it communicated to every

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Mormon because there was still a very, yeah, Sunstone had started, but there was still a real consistency, as far as the beliefs of the

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LDS church. Not as much of a consistency as you have with Jehovah's Witnesses.

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But in my decades of ministry, I have seen a massive expansion of the range of beliefs in both groups.

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Less wide amongst Witnesses, obviously. But especially amongst the

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Mormons, it's amazing just how massive the expansion has been.

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And I don't see how this system can survive it. If it goes the way of the liberal mainstream denominations, just look at what's happening to them.

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All of them that had hundreds of thousands, millions of adherents in the middle of the last century will be either completely defunct and extinct by the middle of this century, or shortly thereafter.

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And so it can't survive that. So who gets all the money?

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I mean, that's a lot of power. It really is. And there are still

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Mormons who believe the old stories. And that's why I keep saying, it would just take one charismatic leader.

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If one of the 12 decided to say, hey, I know what's happened from the inside out.

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And God told me to take over the reins of this church. Especially if he was a young, charismatic type.

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Not charismatic in a technical sense, obviously. You could see a major, major split.

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Will we see just a slow death over time? I don't know. And you got billions and billions of dollars.

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You can prop things up. And in fact, at the last general conference, there was an announcement of what?

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19 new temples they were building? Why? They're not getting much attendance at the ones they've got now.

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So that's almost a desperation move. And it was interesting.

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Albert Moeller mentioned a couple weeks ago, right after the conference.

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I forgot to mention it on the program. He gave some quotes, even from the current prophet.

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Basically saying, we cannot change our doctrines.

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And we're not gonna change our doctrines on human sexuality. But we're forging alliances with the

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LGBTQ community. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I mean, it would be a massive redefinition.

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Of Mormonism. And people have asked, well, couldn't it be like the Worldwide Church of God? They sort of changed their doctrine. No. Worldwide Church of God was 125th?

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Nah, not even that big. 1 -100th the size of Mormonism at best? No. I simply can't see that happening at all.

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So what should Christians be doing? Well, you should be praying for opportunities to speak to Mormons.

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Because there are a lot of them that are really confused right now. They're disillusioned.

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They're confused. Mormons have always needed knowledgeable Christians to speak the truth to them.

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But never more than now. Because if they're becoming disillusioned, they need to know that there's something else to go to.

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Because the great tragedy is that what would happen today with the

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Mormons is what happened with Jehovah's Witnesses back in the mid -1970s.

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When the 1975 prophecy failed, over the course of the next couple of years, over a million people left the

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Witnesses. Not all at once, but sort of just drifted away. They were disillusioned as well.

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And studies showed that over 99 % of them never ended up in any Christian church after that point in time.

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They just became the religiously abused. And that's truly sad.

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It really is. And this is certainly not something that we ever saw coming when we started

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Alpha Omega Ministries. So many, many years ago. We wanted to witness to Mormons, most definitely.

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But we couldn't have imagined that coming up on 40 years down the road, the

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Mormonism we'd be dealing with would... It would be next to impossible to get a Mormon to actually stand up and defend what they believe.

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So, be very sensitive to having opportunities to reach out to the Mormon people. Because, you know,

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Cedar City here has a university,

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Southern Utah University here. And the contrast between the university vibe, homosexuality, transgenderism, yeah, even in Southern Utah.

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It really stands out within this context. And the real amazing thing is

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Mormonism just doesn't have the internal moral and ethical foundation to be able to withstand these things.

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So it's going to be ugly. It's going to be ugly.

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And they need people who know the gospel and know, especially know how

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Mormonism has twisted the gospel. That's exceptionally helpful to be able to communicate across that bridge and be able to communicate to LDS people.

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Even LDS people that are disillusioned. Maybe they're not being overly missionary minded anymore, but they still have that stuff.

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They still have that theology in the back of their mind. And they need folks like us that will speak the truth to them.

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So, pray for the LDS people and be prepared to deal with them, especially in this area.

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I mean, pray for the church plant that's going on here in Cedar City from up at the

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OPC church in Magna. That they would have continued growth, stability, ability to have local leadership.

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Because it's a long drive. And Jason does this so often.

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And he may be OPC, but he's making the old

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Methodist circuit riders look lazy with all the traveling that he's doing. But especially down in these areas, there's a huge need.

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So, pray that that will be met. Okay. Been an interesting day.

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You may notice I'm talking quietly. That's because I'm finally succumbing,

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I think, to what happens when you travel for weeks on end and shake hands with lots and lots of people.

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And my throat is on fire. So, it feels like my standard sinus infection thing that, you know,

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I'll try to just blow through it as best as I can. We'll see how tomorrow morning goes.

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But anyway, this morning I got up.

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Felt fine then. It was probably this afternoon I started feeling it going, eh, I know what that is. And the first thing

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I get up this morning, I start getting text messages and screen captures and stuff.

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I'm going, what's going on? I don't have a lot of time because checkout time at most

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RV parks is 11 o 'clock. And, you know, there's things you've got to do to get going.

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And sometimes you just run into something that takes more time than you expected it to, to get packed up and to get out.

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Like I dropped a, I have a, one of those long lighter things for a candle

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I've gotten here. It fell back behind next to the heating stuff.

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You don't lay that back by the heating stuff. That's a good way for things to go, boom.

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And, but I just couldn't get my hand back there. So, I'm having to get tools out to try to reach back there. You know, stuff happens that you don't necessarily see coming.

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And so, I didn't have a whole lot of time. I got a few screen captures.

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While I was driving down here, I'd see stuff on the phone. People were grabbing screen caps for me.

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And once again, it was in response to yesterday's program. It started off with a tweet that Richard Braselis has since removed.

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I'm thankful at least that it was removed. That basically initially said that I had said that Aristotle believed in inseparable operations.

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And I just assumed, well, you know, if he said I said it, I must have said it.

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I didn't really have the time to go looking. And I just, it was really obvious to me because I do happen to know when

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Aristotle lived. And he lived before Christ. And so, there would be no reason for him to believe in something that's relevant to much later

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Trinitarian development, centuries and centuries and centuries after Christ. And Dr.

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Braselis had said this could be a real howler. And I was like, you know, so the first thought across your mind is, isn't it obvious?

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You know, how many times have you been listening to something? I was listening to someone that I respect. I think it was Doug Wilson that I respect greatly.

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And he confused a name. He put somebody else's name in. Context told you who he was talking about.

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You didn't. You just, adults just go, we hear everybody do that.

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And, you know, I had driven six hours yesterday, six and a half the day before. And it's sort of like, okay, if I was talking about Aristotle and Aquinas, it all started with A.

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It's sort of like when I talk about Muslims and Mormons. It's always dangerous to talk about them at the same time.

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Just way too much like. And so, as my dearly departed mom used to say,

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I got my tongue in front of my eye teeth and I couldn't see what I was saying. But then some friends of mine went ahead and looked at, you know, listened to the dividing line.

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And I said no such thing. I had used the phrase Aristotelian slash

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Thomistic context, which is a perfectly understandable phrase in that context.

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I hadn't even made the, I hadn't even said anything that would create a howler. But as I said,

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Dr. Vassalos removed the tweet, posted about three or four others in its place, explaining why he was confused by what

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I said. But the reality is I wasn't, I mean, that was disrespectful, but I've just come to expect that, to be honest with you, over the past number of months.

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That's what's been happening in a lot of contexts. You know, the worst spin is put on anything that I say by the people that are supposed to be the closest to me in theology.

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It's, yeah. Anyway, it was the comments on that original tweet that convinced me that we needed to do another program.

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It was what came after that that bothered me the most.

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Now, I have numerous things queued up here, and I'm going to end up skipping some of them,

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I'm sure. But here was what concerned me.

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Stephan Lindblad, a, I believe, associate professor of systematic theology or assistant professor at Institute Reform Baptist Studies, commented on my program and said,

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Can't say I heard anything other than hubris. The confusion of his exegesis for biblical authority is just stunning.

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I'm sure I'll get scolded for saying that. Oh, well. So, I mean, aside from just simply what amounts to hubris by, for example, doing what

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I did on the program yesterday and reading from Muller and going, Okay, here's how we can look at that in a biblical worldview where the

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Bible is the ultimate authority and actually do what people pretend they're doing when they're really not doing that.

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And that is have philosophy and this kind of commentary as a handmaiden, as an assistant, not as something that determines how to read

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Scripture. As we're going to see later on, we've got some real examples today of where exegesis just gets thrown out the door and it's, no, here's, this is how you're supposed to do it.

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I'm not sure how that's hubris. But my Reform Baptist brethren are quick to be throwing out all sorts of accusations these days.

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Really are. But how would you, the confusion of his exegesis for biblical authority is stunning.

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What does that mean? It sounds like it's saying that I'm confusing exegesis for biblical authority.

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How, how do you have biblical authority without exegesis?

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I mean, it's just a poorly written sentence. But it sounds like what it's saying, doesn't it?

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I don't, I don't get it. And, of course, Richard Basilis responded to him by saying, you, sir, need to read your

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Bible. And this is what Richard's been doing for months now. Is these but solo scriptura things.

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You, sir, need to read your Bible. And so it's just mockery. And that's seems to be 99 % of his argumentation.

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Stephen Lindblad responded, all by myself. So you see here this idea of.

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It's very, very common. And again, I hate to repeat myself. But this is what

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I've been dealing with from Roman Catholics for decades. It's a.

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It's the idea that if you believe in solo scriptura, you believe in you and your

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Bible under the tree alone, blah, blah, blah. And that if you, as anyone should take into consideration.

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Anything has come before you. Well, that's a violation of solo scriptura. And none of us are saying that.

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There is an important. Balance. And danger that must be observed.

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In recognizing. The different sources of authority based upon the ontological nature, nature of the source of authority.

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And so you can believe the scripture is the honest awesome, hence is of absolute ultimate authority.

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At the same time, I can say, for example, that I have been greatly blessed. By the writings of Athanasius.

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But I recognize that the writings of Athanasius are of a different. Source and nature.

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And hence a different level of authority and role of authority. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every single generation.

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But. We also have to recognize that every generation before us. Has like Augustine.

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Had conflicts that created all sorts of. Internal contradictions that is on theology.

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And so. The issue is finding the balance. And the balance. Up until 10 years ago amongst reformed

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Baptist was always to be found. In that which is the honest us that which is God breathed. So.

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This is childish back and forth. Between. Two men.

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Very closely associated with RBS. And then Richard Russell says this and this was the tweet that I was thinking most about.

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Was seven Lindblad said all by myself Richard Russell says that's the deal. Self hoping potpourri.

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You're always right. And proud of your idiosyncrasies. Now remember this is all in reference to me.

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Self. Hoping potpourri. You're always right. Proud of your idiosyncrasies.

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Again. I have attempted for months now. To warn

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Dr. And those associated with him. I've never seen

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Dr. Engage Roman Catholic. Seek to. Respond to the claims of Rome.

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Defend soul scripture against Roman Catholicism. I would have assumed until six months ago that. He probably has personally.

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Just never. In any recorded fashion. I have directed people to his work on Colossians two.

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Even though that goes very much against. The great tradition on Colossians two. His work on the

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Lord's supper. Again very much against the great tradition. You have to be to be a Baptist. You've got to go against the great tradition on some really foundational issues.

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To be a Baptist. You. And you have to have a basis for doing that. And it was, it always been.

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Solo scriptura. Trump's tradition, but. Who knows what that will be in the future. But self.

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Hoping potpourri. Many Roman Catholics have argued over and over again.

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That you have to have. Some kind of personal authority. The scripture is simply insufficient.

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As Patrick Madrid. Wrote an article. Decades ago now.

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Solo scriptura, the blueprint for anarchy. In fact, he used that terminology in the three on three debate.

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That they did with Michael Horton. Rosenblatt and the other guy. Madrid. And another guy.

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And. So I've, this is, this is an issue that. It is important.

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And again, I thought we were all on the same page, but clearly. While I knew of its importance, other others did not enhance.

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They have been able to shift on it without even realizing they were shifting. Because no one.

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This, this never would have happened. Even 10 years ago. Probably even six or seven years ago.

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There's never this kind of stuff would never have happened. To emphasize.

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The ultimate authority of scripture. And its sufficiency. And even its perspicuity.

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So as to do what I did yesterday, and that is look at the definition of actus purus. It was a definition as used by the reformers, not as it went back to Aristotle.

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And ask serious questions. And basically say we need to define this within the context of Jeremiah.

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Isaiah. Paul. Genesis. To, to make that kind of statement is not being called hubris by professor at IRBS.

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But now by Richard Bissell says self -poping potpourri. And this is how

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Rome has always responded. When. When you've challenged her claims. Well, You complain about our

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Pope, but you have to be your own Pope. Because the idea. Of the scriptures.

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As the. The positive faith given to believers who are in drought by the

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Holy Spirit of God, who therefore. Can learn from those who've come before. If we're in trouble, Holy spirit of God, then we must recognize that every generation before us.

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As likewise been in droplet spirit of God. That means we can learn much from them. But.

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Church history shows us that. There are many things that we can learn from them.

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Not to do. I've mentioned before, and I need to,

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I need to grab his name. He was, he was church history professor years and years ago at the old covenant seminary.

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Not the new covenant seminary, which is confusing. I've listened to all of his church history lessons multiple times, and he was just a great.

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A great teacher. Cause it sort of was like he was there. It was so old, but he would.

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And the class in two different ways, depending on whether what they had studied. Communicated to us.

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Something good in church history. Or whether it was something that we should learn from and avoid in church history.

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And I think that's a. A really good. Thing to keep in mind when, when looking at church history.

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But as I said, I think that. I think that. Rome will say you, you have to have that ultimate authority scripture cannot do it.

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And so you either have the Pope established by Christ to the succession in Peter. Or you become your own

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Pope self. Poping potpourri. And you're always right. I'm proud of your idiosyncrasies.

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Now, again, this isn't a thread. It starts off with criticism of me. And the idea that I'm attempting to establish potpourri.

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That I'm proud of idiosyncrasies. Or I'm always right. All these things we know.

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Are. I mean, obviously disrespectful. But they're also just plainly false.

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And this kind of rhetoric is childish. It's absolutely child. I don't know what's causing this.

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But it needs to end. It. I have to expose it. This has been going on for months.

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But now it's sort of seemingly coming to a head and you just have to go. Do you hear what people are saying?

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Did you listen to what I did? These people are saying that what I did in seeking.

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To place. A Latin theological term in the context.

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Of biblical revelation and biblical worldview is self -poping potpourri. Idiosyncratic.

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Where do you think these people are going? Is there maybe a reason why a lot of us are going, do you really still believe in Sola Scriptura?

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Because you're not acting like it. You're not behaving like it. It's. Yeah.

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Amazing, amazing stuff. Let's turn to the scriptures real quick. Because I need to get to.

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John 17 again. And. We were informed today.

40:56

That there is a. A better way. To. Understand.

41:06

John chapter 17. Got a couple here. We'll go back with Stefan Lindblad.

41:14

Free information. Thomas follows Augustine interpreting John 17 five as Jesus prayer for his glorious session as a man.

41:21

The fulfillment of his predestination to be glorified as a man. The glory he had before the world was.

41:27

Is the glory of his predestination. Now.

41:33

I have in front of me the whole section. And it. I think what

41:38

I'll do. Just to save my voice is I will try to remember in. Chris Wisdom had given this to me.

41:46

Oh, at least two weeks ago. I had it on the list to cover. I was going to specifically.

41:52

When we did the John 17 discussion. It came up afterwards and. And Chris mentioned.

41:59

What Augustine's interpretation was. I had it all queued up and just didn't get to it.

42:05

So. I'm not sure it would have really would have made any difference, but. I'll try to remember to link to it.

42:12

Someone remind me to do that. When I blog this afterwards. He goes on to say, oh, and, and others interpret the text.

42:21

Likewise. Anyways. Shred away at the exegetical tradition on this one, if you will.

42:28

The exegetical. So now there's one exegetical tradition again. Very familiar language.

42:34

This was what was thrown at all the reformers. You're shredding the exegetical tradition. How dare you look at Romans five one and coming up with justification by faith.

42:42

There is a great tradition. There is an exegetical tradition. Johan Eck. Was Johan Eck was doing this in 1518.

42:51

In response to Luther. It's nothing new here. It's just, who's doing it.

42:57

That leaves you going. What happened? And I want to believe deep down inside.

43:03

They just don't realize. They still don't see. What they're doing. But there it is.

43:13

He asked not citing Thomas because he's Thomas, but because he appeals to Augustine. And this exegesis appears routinely among reform folks.

43:21

It is everywhere. I'm going to take a look at it. What's interesting is.

43:30

Someone responded. Thank you. Whoever just sent that to me. I don't,

43:36

I can't tell from your phone. Phone number. But it was Dr. David Calhoun of covenant seminary. I highly recommend.

43:42

His church history lessons. I just love listening, listening to his voice. And I love listening to.

43:50

Godly men. Who love church history. And who are teaching on church history.

43:55

So Dr. David Calhoun. Thank you. Whoever that was. I will look it up. I'll look up later on.

44:04

I'll be able to figure out from this number. I think. Hopefully who you are.

44:09

Or if you'd like to just retext and go, oh, Hey, it's. Cause you're not coming up in my contacts for some reason.

44:15

Dr. David Calhoun. Thank you. Highly recommend you grab that and listen to that. So. Someone responded to Lindblad saying, who is attacking the exegetical tradition on this point?

44:29

As if everybody. Just always has read John 17 five. As being

44:35

Jesus's predestination. I've got a challenge for y 'all.

44:41

A challenge for all you. Classical theist reform, Thomas folks.

44:49

I'd like to see your sermons from before 2010 on John 17, where you hold this position.

44:56

Maybe some of you do. I never heard it. I'd like to.

45:02

I'd like to see that. Richard. Do you have some sermons?

45:08

You've preached on John 17, right? I mean, I have thousands of sermons on sermon audio.

45:15

So certainly you've done the high priestly prayer, right? I'd be interested in seeing. Anyway.

45:23

Stephen Lindblad responded, James white. See my C tweet by Richard Brassellus relinks.

45:28

Recent video from JW. Then right below it. Right below it. On Twitter this afternoon.

45:37

Right below it from Isaiah. A link to wonderful lecture by Dominic Legge on this.

45:48

Who's Dominic Legge? He's Dominican. And. I looked him up.

45:58

Dominic Legge. Accomplished guy. Father Dominic Legge, OP is the director of the

46:03

Tom mystic Institute and assistant professor in systematic theology at the pontifical faculty of the immaculate conception in Washington, DC.

46:12

He was a JD from Yale law school, a PHL from the school of philosophy of the Catholic university of America and a doctorate in sacred theology from the university of Freiburg in Switzerland.

46:22

He entered the order of preachers in 2001, after having practiced constitutional law for several years, the trial attorney for the

46:28

U S department of justice. He has also taught the Catholic university of America law school and at Providence college.

46:33

He's the author of the Trinitarian Christology of St. Thomas Aquinas, 2016

46:38

Oxford university press. But it has nothing to do with Thomas.

46:46

No, there's nothing. Nothing in there at all. We don't have to worry about any of that stuff.

46:53

So. Here's the. We were being told that there is a.

47:01

Historical exegesis. Well, let's take a look at it again. Most of you remember.

47:07

And once I get down to verse five, I will. I'll do the. Screen -share thing.

47:14

If I can even find, yeah, there it is. Do the screen -share thing with y 'all. Jesus spoke these things and lifting up his eyes to heaven.

47:23

He said, father. The hour has come. Glorify your son, but the sun may glorify you.

47:32

Now, again. There are certain texts in scripture.

47:38

That we have used historically. To establish the pre -existence of Christ. And the distinct.

47:48

Ness. Of the son from the father. In case y 'all have.

47:56

Become confused about this. There are no Bible passages. That layout.

48:03

Inter -Trinitarian relationships in eternity past. Those are derived from.

48:12

Other passages of scripture that we put together. And so when people say to me, the actual only way.

48:21

To distinguish between father, son, spirit. Is not by what they do. But by their.

48:26

But by procession. Inspiration. Depends on what terminology.

48:33

What direction you're taking it. When people. Oh, thank you.

48:40

Of course it was Algo. Who else? When. When people start saying.

48:48

That you. Cannot distinguish. The actions of the father, son, and spirit in time.

48:56

I just ask you to read texts like this. Father, the hour has come.

49:01

Glorify your son. The son may glorify you. One person speaking to another.

49:11

Communication is taking place. There is a request for glorification. Even as you gave him.

49:22

Authority over all flesh. That to all whom you have given him.

49:28

He may give eternal life. This is going back to John six. This is the eternal covenant of redemption. This is the relationship of father and son.

49:35

The idea that we can make these nice. Neat. Clean. Categorical. Cuts.

49:44

The Bible is not meant to be nice and clean and categorical. Doesn't give us things in that way.

49:54

And this is eternal life. They may know you. The only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Man, I've, I've had to respond to that from so many

50:01

Unitarians. And now I've got to. Now I've got to point out that it. Actually, as Unitarians recognized.

50:09

Distinguishes between. The father, because that's. It says you. John 17 one.

50:16

Father. And Jesus Christ. And yet it is to know both is to have eternal life.

50:25

I glorified you on earth. Having finished the work that you have given me to do. Well, again, as we said last time.

50:32

That is seeing. The. Work of redemption as clearly.

50:42

Finished in reality. Even though chronologically it was not yet accomplished.

50:49

And therefore. You have verse five. Now father glorify me together with yourself.

50:58

The glory, which I have with you before the world was. So let's. Let's go ahead and. Take a look at.

51:07

What we have here. I may. Go ahead and use.

51:15

Draw on something or. So I'll turn that on here. Let's let's remind ourselves of what we have in the text.

51:24

I think it's vitally important. We have here. Is what.

51:31

Jesus originally said. And so let's go to presentify and.

51:38

And it's a screen. And now.

51:46

And now glorify me. You. Father. Para.

51:55

Say out toe. Tay Doc say. Hey. Icon. Prod to.

52:06

Tom cosmond. I and I para soy. Now. I had a.

52:13

I had someone. Point out that it's a little bit difficult because you have. Para say out toe.

52:23

Together with yourself. And then you've got para soy down here. Had with you.

52:32

And my, my response was, yeah, it's awkward in English, but it's not in Greek. That's the thing to keep in mind, but I want to look right here.

52:40

At this term right here. Icon. Now that's different than icon as in.

52:50

Let me, let me, let me make sure. It's just not me. It's too small to see, but I've highlighted it in the.

53:00

Auto material on the right -hand side. Icon. Is the imperfect active indicative of echo.

53:11

To have. First person. Second person singular. Imperfect active indicative.

53:19

Okay. So that's not me telling you that. Everybody can identify that.

53:24

And of course you, you can see with the. Insertion of the Yoda. That we're looking at the imperfect.

53:32

It's a. Echo obviously these older Greek verbs are. We used to call them a regulars, but.

53:38

That's probably not the best way to refer to it, but anyways. So which. Which.

53:47

Pronoun which the glory, which, so it's referring back to. Doc say the glory, which

53:53

I. Had his first person singular. Which I had.

54:03

So who's speaking. Now we know that.

54:11

Doc Sato here. Is in the imperative because it's a prayer. So it's, it's not a command.

54:17

Imperatives used in prayers as in request form. And now. You glorify me.

54:26

Father. With the glory.

54:33

That I had. Together with yourself. The glory, which

54:38

I had. Before the world was para soy. So this is the glory, which

54:45

I had. In your presence. Oh, I was going to bring it up and I forgot. I'm sorry. AT Robertson has.

54:52

A really interesting discussion of this. In his word pictures in the new testament.

54:59

And I have that in here. I probably could, but we're running late as it is. So I apologize. Now. I just want to ask.

55:10

Verse 16 goes on. I have manifested. Your name to the men whom you gave to me.

55:18

X2 cost me out of the world. They were yours.

55:23

And you gave them to me again. One person. Actions taking place.

55:30

One person possesses these. Persons and gives them to another. You gave them to me.

55:37

They have kept your word. And now they've come to everything you've given me is from you.

55:44

I mean. There is so much depth here. In revelation of the relationship with father and son.

55:53

But what you can't get away from is. Verse five. The person praying.

56:04

Said that he. Had glory. The glory that he wants to receive from the father.

56:14

He wants had. Together with the father. And he says,

56:19

I have. I have. What does that mean?

56:29

I would invite you. Like I said, I'll link to the.

56:34

Entire discussion by Augusta. I think Lindblad did too. It's different source, but. That way you can read it.

56:41

Different translations. There is nothing about predestination. In verse five.

56:49

There is nothing. Whatsoever. In these words. That are confusing.

56:58

Jesus said he had glory. In the presence of the father.

57:03

Before the world was. Before the world was.

57:10

In the presence of the father. He had glory. I have.

57:17

That is the basic meaning of the word. So how do you get from. The glory which

57:23

I had. To the glory. Of the human.

57:29

Nature that didn't exist then. That was predestined to be glorified.

57:37

I mean, we're being told that I am. Chipping away.

57:46

Did I not. Did I not share that that whole time. I didn't share that that whole time.

57:51

Did I. Or did I. Yep, nope, stop sharing now. Great. Nobody.

57:58

Nobody. Texted me to say. Hey. You're not showing it. Sorry. Thought it was sharing, but it didn't.

58:07

So. All my pretty. It was very interesting anyways. Thanks, Rich. Okay. There was an extra button to click and I didn't click the button.

58:15

So. Stopping the share now. Anyway. Well, you know what.

58:25

Here I was. I clicked on this. And I thought I hit share.

58:31

And I didn't. So hopefully, can you see that now. Here it is. The glory, which

58:38

I had. First person icon. Which I had.

58:44

Now there's a. Variant here.

58:51

There's two manuscripts. That have aim instead of pay. Which makes no sense there whatsoever.

58:58

So that's not really a possibility. So icon is the reading of all the manuscripts.

59:06

Jesus had glory. So that's what I was. Emphasizing and thought everybody was looking at and.

59:15

Outlined and underlined and. You'll just have to trust me on that one. So when we're preaching this text.

59:26

On what basis. Do we preach it as this now father.

59:33

Glorify me together with yourself. With the glory that the predestined.

59:39

Plan. For the existence of my human nature.

59:48

Had with you. Before the world was so somehow. There was a.

59:57

Predestined plan. That was glorious. But somehow it was.

01:00:06

With God. I mean the natural. The natural reading of the language.

01:00:13

Is where it's talking about something. That has existence in God's presence. Specifically in the father's presence.

01:00:18

Because that's the contextual identification. And so.

01:00:27

There was. There was something. With the father. I would figure that.

01:00:34

Something that's predestined. Doesn't exist in the presence of the father.

01:00:43

So as to be glorious in the presence of the father. But the point is.

01:00:54

This is the exegetical tradition. Really. Oh, and so if you just.

01:01:05

If you just look at the language. And it says I had. So this is. A predestined.

01:01:13

This is predestination speaking. I'm the one tearing.

01:01:22

Attacking the exegetical tradition. Oh. Shred away at the exegetical tradition on this one.

01:01:31

If you will, is what Stefan Lindblad said. So if you. If you translate it.

01:01:38

Basically. And it says I had. Then you're shredding away at the exegetical tradition.

01:01:46

It's sort of like when I go to Romans five, one. And it says, peace with God. I have peace with God.

01:01:56

That's shredding. The exegetical tradition. Of mother church. Or if I go to Matthew chapter 16.

01:02:06

And I point out that the giving of the keys is future. I will give you not.

01:02:13

I am right now giving. I will give you. And that happens in Matthew chapter 18. And Peter receives the keys along with the other apostles.

01:02:20

Shredding the exegetical. I've heard all this before.

01:02:27

Who gets to define the exegetical tradition. Interesting.

01:02:38

I just found it. Ironic that later in the thread, there's. The pontifical biblical institute or something.

01:02:47

Going on there. Okay. I need to get some more to some more of these. So. I.

01:02:58

In light of this. Josh summer. Now somebody. I saw someone say.

01:03:06

Nobody's nobody's saying the father doesn't love the son eternally. And I said, really? I haven't been reading

01:03:12

Josh summer recently. Have you? Because that's exactly what you said. But now on John 17, five.

01:03:20

This same text. He knows what Augustine said. So on John 17, five.

01:03:26

If indeed the divine person, the son there speaks according to a created nature.

01:03:32

And I believe he must be. Then as a matter of course, he will utilize tense.

01:03:40

Or time bound language. Hashtag partitive exegesis.

01:03:50

Hashtag Augustine for the win. Then he says that which is proper to the creature must be said of the son's person, according to his creaturely nature.

01:04:02

Never properly said of his person, according to the divine nature. Human communication process of speech.

01:04:09

Tensed language. Must be attributed to the human nature of the son.

01:04:23

Are you just on a real basic level? Again, I'd like to see the sermons on this.

01:04:34

Some. While back would be nice, but I would just like to see how. Anyone.

01:04:40

Preaches this text. And inserts this whole concept. That no, Jesus didn't have glory in the presence of the father.

01:04:49

We can't believe that because. Of our theological systems.

01:04:57

Which are. Which we've told you up till now we derived from the text of scripture, but, but now we.

01:05:04

Recognize that we really weren't doing that in the first place. And so. So. Josh summer was asked.

01:05:16

So how is it then? He is able to pray according to his human nature.

01:05:22

For a specific glory. He held with the father in the pre -existence. I mean, that's.

01:05:28

That's what the text says. That's what the text says. That he.

01:05:34

Icon. Had a particular glory in the presence of the father. But we're being told.

01:05:42

No. That was a predestined glory. Of the human nature.

01:05:50

Human predestined human natures do not speak in the first person. About what was true in the past, but it's, it's tense speech.

01:05:59

What. Answer given by Josh summer.

01:06:06

Okay. Sit down folks. Why is it that Jesus prayed.

01:06:13

To be glorified with glory, which he had. With the father before the world was. For similar reason.

01:06:21

We pray to be glorified. To behold the glory of God. Psalm 63 to Matthew five, eight.

01:06:30

It is beatitude for which he prays. Notable that in John 17, five,

01:06:36

Jesus says. Before the world was not before I took on flesh.

01:06:53

For the vast majority of folks. We sort of covered this more than we need to, because.

01:07:01

I think the vast majority of folks are going. I don't know what those people are talking about, but ain't my Bible. Okay. I get that.

01:07:10

But. You know this. At least till recently was my tribe. And so it really troubles me.

01:07:17

That we've been telling people for years and years and years. Sola scriptura. Scripture is sufficient. Scripture is of ultimate authority.

01:07:27

But now very plainly, what we're. What we're saying. And what we're doing are two different things.

01:07:33

Well, what they are doing. I'm. I don't know what this means.

01:07:39

But. I don't even know how to.

01:07:44

To begin to try to find a connection. Between the absolutely unique.

01:07:52

High priestly prayer. And the statement.

01:07:58

I mean, I'm just. I didn't think there was any. Question about this.

01:08:03

But there are certain texts. That. That give us insights. That we don't deserve to get.

01:08:13

And here's one divine person speaking to another. And now all of a sudden. A bunch of.

01:08:23

Theological concepts derived from Greek philosophy. Are going to be placed as the lens over this and.

01:08:30

And now a plain statement. A plain statement that speaks of the glory of the sun.

01:08:37

Before the world was the same glory seen in Isaiah chapter six. All of a sudden becomes a.

01:08:49

Becomes predestination. And. The reason why

01:08:57

Jesus can pray for a specific glory. Is for a similar reason. We pray to be glorified.

01:09:08

The sinless son of God. Has accomplished. The will of the father for him.

01:09:17

He has. He's already said in John chapter 14. If you'd loved me. You would have rejoiced.

01:09:23

For the father's greater than I am. And. What that requires us to recognize is.

01:09:31

That the son had existed. In that great position of authority in the presence of the father.

01:09:38

In the past. And he was going back to that position. And if disciples would recognize that they would have.

01:09:45

They would have. Even John 1428 is a reference to the deity of Christ. I wonder how many of these guys have ever sat for hours with Jehovah's witnesses.

01:09:55

I don't get the feeling they have because they don't show any. Understanding. Of how we've even derived the foundational beliefs.

01:10:07

That they are now simply assuming as part of the great tradition. It is beatitude for which he prays.

01:10:24

In an absolutely unique fashion. Yes. Absolutely unique. There's no one else can pray this, right?

01:10:31

Well, it sounds like it. We can. Noble and John 75. Jesus. Before the world was not before I took on flesh.

01:10:38

Aren't they both the same? I mean. They're both before the incarnation.

01:10:46

But the reference that Jesus makes to is before the world was. So he had eternally.

01:10:51

Had the glory. That is going to be given to him. Having accomplished. Well, the father, this is a pact.

01:10:57

This is Trinitarian theology. What are you people doing? What are you doing?

01:11:05

Get out of your Facebook groups and go find some Jehovah's witnesses. Would you?

01:11:16

Sorry. It just. It's just it's frustrating. It is really.

01:11:23

Really frustrating. To see this kind of stuff. All right, let me.

01:11:29

Let me look at. Marcelo's Mueller's dictionary helps readers of.

01:11:35

WCF to LCF and other 16th, 17th century documents. Understand what is meant by what is said. If you disagree with his dictionary and the writings mentioned above.

01:11:43

Fine, but please, if you do so stop identifying yourself. With those documents. This is the big thing. This is a, we're the club.

01:11:50

We're going to find the club. We found out. Over the past five, six years that we didn't know.

01:11:57

Everything we need to know to define the club. And so now we're just going to shrink the membership of the club down to the point where it'll disappear.

01:12:07

That's really what's going on here, guys. Just. I know you're not going to listen to me. You don't respect me. Clearly. I'm just hoping and praying.

01:12:15

I'm going to live long enough. To where at least one of you is going to. Come to you and said, yeah, boy, we.

01:12:21

Really messed that one up, didn't we? And the answer will be. All right.

01:12:29

Let's see if there's any others here that I had opened. Yeah. One more.

01:12:40

Stephen Knowles. Massive long thread. That I have obviously gone way too far to.

01:12:47

Keep that. But. Stephen Knowles had said at 58, 10, yesterday's divine line,

01:12:56

James white. Again, argued the classic doctrine of in several operations is being pushed into modalism by saying.

01:13:02

If you push a several operations, You're going to get to the point where you no longer have any divine persons. And then the thread goes on from there.

01:13:07

What was it? 27. Or something in there. But I wanted to pop in Garrett M.

01:13:16

Doctor in quotation marks. White's entire motive motif. Is dramatically misrepresenting others and then dunking on them with facts and logic.

01:13:25

It's very hard to take his critique seriously at this point. I don't take you seriously, Garrett. Because you gave no examples.

01:13:32

And of anybody on this entire conversation. I am the only one that has spent hours.

01:13:40

Reading on my own platform. What other people are saying. So that you can check it out for yourself.

01:13:47

You have it backwards. Brother. All there is to it. And then

01:13:53

Stephen Noll says, it's very hard. It is clear through listening to him that he believes he isn't being responded to.

01:14:02

Because his exegesis is just so superior. What exegesis do

01:14:08

I have to respond to? Quoting Muller is not exegesis.

01:14:15

What Josh Summer gave us is not exegesis. I haven't had anything to respond to.

01:14:23

Am I wrong about icon? Am I wrong about the grammar? Am I wrong about the syntax?

01:14:29

Am I wrong about the relationship of the words? The meaning? The lexicography? Give me something from the scriptures for crying out loud.

01:14:38

Can you put Muller aside long enough to find your Bible? It's around there someplace.

01:14:45

Give me something. Every one of you sitting there is like, you are ripping at the exegetical tradition.

01:14:52

Get into John 17 5 and give me something. If you don't do it, what you are saying is, well, we can't.

01:14:59

Because we know. That that's what the text says. You prove, show me the context in John 17.

01:15:08

That means that John intended to communicate and communicate to his audience that this has to do with the predestined glorification of the human nature of Jesus.

01:15:18

Either get in it or just stop playing around with saying you believe in solo scriptura.

01:15:24

Okay? It isn't because his exegesis is just so superior.

01:15:32

It's the only one on the block right now because you ain't doing anything. So, Stephen Knowles, I'm calling you out.

01:15:40

John 17 5. Prove it. Exegetically. I read

01:15:46

Greek. I read Hebrew. Prove it. If you won't do it, and I know what you're going to say, if you won't do it, then just admit that this is just slander.

01:16:00

It has nothing to do with reality. This thread is just here to point out the gaping chasm between how he understands persons and what the church has always defined them as.

01:16:13

Oh, the church. Not the scriptures. The church. Which church are we talking about now?

01:16:19

Oh, it's the great tradition. It's the small C Catholic church. Oh, so you'd be willing to go into Ignatius?

01:16:31

Prove that. Because I've spent a lot of time at Ignatius. Really have. And maybe epistles of Ephesians, you can prove that in there because that's the church, right?

01:16:41

And the church always defined them as, right? No, you mean post -Nicene orthodoxy in a particular category.

01:16:48

That's what you should have said. Just amazing stuff.

01:16:59

If you want to mock away, well, just read your

01:17:05

Bible. Sola Scriptura. I can't stop you.

01:17:12

But if you're going to say you are tearing at the tradition, then if you don't get into the text and show where what

01:17:20

I said here was wrong, you have capitulated. Just be honest about it.

01:17:25

Just be upfront about it. Okay? That is the only way to go.

01:17:32

Okay. Well, Rich, I made it through the program. I may never speak again. Some people would be very happy about that.

01:17:41

Very, very pleased. But there you go. Thank you, Algo, for your assistance there.

01:17:51

And Gene sent me a text, too. And Chris, all of the work.

01:17:59

I was going to say this, and I forgot to. I would trust what

01:18:04

Chris says about Augustine way before a certain guy who has a

01:18:11

PhD from Oxford allegedly in Augustine. And a lot of other folks.

01:18:17

I'm discovering these days that, yeah, people who just do a lot of reading have a whole lot more common sense than the people who are trying to get the positions in academia.

01:18:32

I ain't trying to get them. The position I've got, I got because I go out and do the work.

01:18:42

I wasn't seeking it. They'll tell you. I wasn't looking for anything. And the thing

01:18:50

I'm thankful for is my students don't want this kind of gobbledygook.

01:18:56

They want to know what the word says. And that's what we're focused on. Anyways, all right.

01:19:01

I have no idea what tomorrow is going to look like. I may try to sneak something in.

01:19:08

I may not be able to. I may not feel like it. I don't know. But some people will be praying that I don't feel like doing anything or that I'm incapable of doing anything.

01:19:21

We will see. But one last thing here.

01:19:26

You need to understand what our motivations are. My motivations here aren't, well, these people are being really nasty. Yeah, they are.

01:19:32

No question about it. I read their actual words. I don't misrepresent them.

01:19:39

I have no reason to misrepresent them. That's not what we do around here.

01:19:46

My concern is that to do apologetics, you need to have a solid foundation in authority.

01:19:57

Authority of scripture. And I am seeing that fundamentally compromised. I keep warning you, you won't listen.

01:20:09

But we can't have that happen. We have to call it out. We have to call it out.

01:20:15

It would be a whole lot easier for me to keep my mouth shut and just do my thing. Can't do it. Can't do it.

01:20:22

All right, thanks for watching the program today, Lord Willen. We might see you tomorrow. Maybe the day after. Maybe next week.