Presuppositional Apologetics and Prayer | Apologetics Live 0011

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply.

It's not only to that statements would be either true or false.

So is it true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist? Well, I mean how babies exist. Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I mean go down the. You know, it's gonna be. It's very strict about it. I would be skeptical about. Okay, we're done talking.

There's no sense on having a conversation with someone who who just can't even recognize the statement that babies exist. Well, you're a little bit, you know, give me a break. We're never gonna get anywhere.

He's not he's not having a normal conversation.

We're just gonna move on to something else. It's ridiculous. He's not interested in a conversation. No, he's just.

Arguing I am in it. That's all. You know, I just trapped him. I already decided as soon as I said, you know. How's he gonna answer this with babies exist if he gives me a hard time? We're just moving on, you know.

John you had son you want. I was gonna say he doesn't want to have a conversation. You asked him a very simple question. Do babies exist and he has the. That's true, that's true. It's simple. It's simple.

It's a simple freaking question. Come on John's a little fire. I'm just gonna lose. I'm just I'm a lot tired of this. I'm tired of these games. Oh. You saying this. All right, so there's no babies. All right, we are.

Presuppositional Apologetics and the Authority of Scripture

Live apologetics live coming to you from the Internet. Matt slick is well Missing he's gonna be coming in late. Which means if everybody fills the room Matt won't be able to get in just a thought if we could have some fun.

See him outside trying to get into the hangout and we could just sit there and laugh that was some classic classic stuff in the intro from Years ago about a year ago with that. That was recorded. And you know, unfortunately, we were hoping we were hoping we had an atheist that was gonna come in.

Ah, but no, no, he didn't he he didn't show so he's a no-show. Unfortunately, but we do. I brought some I brought some big guns in till Mac gets here friend of mine Jim Osmond is in with us. We're gonna will at least chat until Mac gets here.

If you have come questions, you want to challenge us apologetically you want some questions answered you maybe got stuck. You were sharing the gospel someone someone challenged you you didn't have an answer.

That's what this show is about. You can watch it live. You just go to apologetics live at calm. You can share that with that link with your friends. They can watch there. There is also a link to join that is there so you can just go there.

Click the link to join if you're already in well. Just refresh it and you'll you'll get that. To be able to join us because I just put the link in there a few minutes ago. So this is a ministry of striving for eternity we try to help answer your apologetics questions we try to help you to be able to defend the faith and We have well Matt slick is usually here.

He's our resident Apologist that we have he's with CARM. That's CIRM Stands for Christian apologetics research ministry one of the largest if not the largest apologetics websites. Probably definitely the oldest I I would think is far as its size.

It's up there. It's a going it's over 25 years. Wow a long time. So with that Jim you might as well if you're unmuted and we could at least chat about some of the things that you and I Talked about that's gonna be on a podcast that will drop Tomorrow.

Nope. Sorry Sunday. I'm mixing my days up for some reason. I thought today was Saturday. That's really bad. I guess. But you and I did a podcast dealing with John MacArthur's interview by Ben Shapiro.

Yeah. How do you okay? First off? John MacArthur's on a secular show more of a political show. How do you think he did? What do you think was the the overall goal that he had in that interview.

Well, I think he probably his goal was obviously to communicate the gospel. That's what he sees every Venue that he is on whether it's Larry King or Ben Shapiro. He sees it as an opportunity to to present the gospel to whoever might be listening.

And I was excited I mean Thrilled when I saw that MacArthur was gonna be on the Ben Shapiro because I listened to Shapiro's podcasts and I have for years Listened to his daily podcast as well as his Sunday conversation that he has and I've heard him on there with Sam Harris and Tucker Carlson and sometimes people that he totally disagrees with and Shapiro is always really good about giving people that he Completely disagrees with as much time as they want or need to answer the questions.

And so I knew that if he would not be he was not going to be combative or confrontational. Really his goals in those podcasts is to have a Conversation with somebody that he disagrees with about a subject and to let them share their perspective and and then Shapiro Of course will ask engaging questions.

He does a good job with that often questions that are intended to be leading in a in a Greg Koukl style. You know like a like an attorney. Ben Shapiro is trained as an attorney. So he he obviously wants to take the conversation a certain direction but I knew that MacArthur would have basically free reign to present whatever he wanted to present without any interruption from Ben Shapiro and MacArthur did a great job doing that his The listening audience.

Man Andrew, I don't know how many Ben Shapiro has to have. Thousands if not tens of thousands of people listen to his podcast.

So well he's got to have a lot when you consider that he is the I think for the 2018 the eighth or ninth most listened to podcast and there's about 660 ,000 podcasts, so yeah, that means he's he's up there.

But yeah, the thing is is that I think he MacArthur shared the gospel so much on that episode that on Ben Shapiro's podcast that next I guess the Monday or the Tuesday. He actually had to say something to his audience on why he didn't criticize MacArthur.

He ends up saying he disagrees with MacArthur's view of Isaiah 53, but he said he doesn't get into those things in his. You know when he's got a guest on he's there for to discuss with the guests not to do a debate.

Yeah if you know knowing that it was just great MacArthur had free reign to share the gospel over and over and Over be able to explain the gospel to a Jewish person. I mean If you want to know how to evangelize and witness to a Jewish person.

My challenge is go find the John MacArthur Ben Shapiro interview. Just go search on YouTube for it and you will see how to do that. I mean they get into political issues. They get into moral issues. But over and over again, you see John MacArthur bringing up the gospel going through all of Isaiah 53.

Explaining how that is fulfilled in Christ just over and over and it was brilliant.

It was it was wonderful to watch it was it was it was seemed customized to Ben Shapiro. I said I was sitting there watching it with my daughter and I at there's one point where I said either John MacArthur has listened to Ben Shapiro argue against Jesus being Messiah or Somebody has told John MacArthur who listens to Shapiro's podcasts exactly what Shapiro believes.

Either that or the Spirit of God was there in customizing John MacArthur's words for Ben Shapiro because he just in presenting the gospel he presented the arguments in such a way as to Basically attack the presuppositions that Shapiro has given on his own podcast in the past.

Because he has made the argument Shapiro has he has made the argument that Jesus never claimed to be God. He never claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. He was just a rabbi and he was a good teacher. And it was years generations After the events of the first century that Jesus's second and third generation Followers invented his claims to deity when they wrote down some things in the Gospels.

And so that is how he has argued that Jesus Christ was not the Messiah and not divine. And MacArthur went right to the heart of that almost as if he has heard heard Shapiro's perspective on that or as if the Spirit of God was just using him because he he basically nailed those those presuppositions.

He just he destroyed them just in presenting the gospel to Shapiro. He undid all of Shapiro's arguments. It was brilliantly done.

Well, I think I think what it is is that Ben Shapiro is not saying anything that a Orthodox Jewish person wouldn't say and so obviously MacArthur if he doesn't know Ben Shapiro's arguments Knows the arguments that Jewish people would make and I thought you know It was brilliant you and I never didn't have time to address this on the podcast episode on the rap report.

But that I should mention that was the podcast. That's that is you could search for rap report. That's wrapped with two Ps. But if you could just go look for Andrew Rappert's rap report. We're gonna deal with going through some of that and there's some there were some controversial things that MacArthur did say.

Those were the issues that we were really trying to to address but there were some things that Really we there was a whole lot. We couldn't say just didn't have time. One of them was you know, he brought up the fact that The Jewish view that Jesus was a good person.

He was just a good man. MacArthur dealt with that beautifully before as you said. It was like he knew the arguments that were gonna be made and took them away before they could get made. And I don't know if he was anticipating to get some pushback.

I mean he gets a little bit of pushback from Larry King, but usually off-air and So, I don't know if it was because of that or what but he definitely was looking to address Some of the typical arguments like well, Jesus was just a good man.

And he says, you know, Jesus couldn't be just a good man. He couldn't be because he claimed to be God. Yeah, and and therefore no good man can do that. No good. He made the liar Lord lunatic a liar lunatic Lord.

Syllogism, he didn't spell it out exactly like that, but he walked through that argument.

That's right. That's right. And You know, I think that it was brilliant the way he did it. It was brilliant the way he he addressed the issues and he did it and this is the thing he did it in a very conversational way.

It wasn't like he was combative. It wasn't like it was argumentative and I mean one thing that was very interesting at the beginning of that interview was Ben Shapiro's folks the people who work for him were Excited to have MacArthur there and he said they've had plenty of guests and no one had the excitement that John MacArthur had.

With the group that works for Ben Shapiro I find that very interesting because it says that Ben Shapiro must be surrounded by Good Christians. I mean Christians that understand solid doctrine that they're excited for MacArthur.

They actually said there was a line of people to talk to and and meet John MacArthur so that's really just kind of interesting with all the guests he's had in there to have that kind of response I just find that I Find it interesting.

I think that maybe there's some something there we can see as a testimony to.

Really to where he may be at. Yeah does tell us something about who might be surrounding him.

Yeah, yeah. So so let's until we until we get some folks in and folks if you want to join now is actually the best time to Join, it's always good to join these and we get a whole bunch of people to come later In the show and ask questions and sometimes we don't get a chance to get to you.

It is always best to come in early get your question. You'll get a better chance of getting on the air. But I'm gonna deal with something. Matt and I have one of our many Facebook groups that we have is called Christian apologetics and we have a troll in there an Internet troll for folks who don't know is someone that pretends like they want to have dialogue when they're really not interested in it.

They're interested in attacking and making whatever arguments they want to make and claims and so that this is a guy who's a an atheist. He put this out and It was just an interesting. Let's see if I could share my screen.

I forget how to do that. Let's see. So Where is that? I'll share this real quick so you can see it. And so what you end up seeing here is this is his the thing he says he's got this list of things and he claims that it's a genuine question that he wants the answer to and.

And so here's the question you have to answer one through seven. Number one, I know for certain God exists. Number two. Can't be certain but I highly believe in God. Number three. I am very I'm very uncertain, but I incline to believe in God.

Number four. The probability of God's existence is 50 Number five, I don't know if God exists, but I tend to be skeptical. Number six I can't know for certain, but I think it's Highly improbable. Number seven.

I know for certain that God doesn't exist. Now he wanted to get a response to that. He wanted to know where people were in a Christian apologetics group. Where people fall on that line? So it was kind of an interesting thing.

I guess he wasn't expecting my answer maybe because he really didn't like it very much, but my answer Is I responded and said to answer your question. Paul you Know for certain God exists. The difference between us is that you suppress the truth and I do not.

The proof that you The proof of this is that you spend all your time in here trying to convince yourself. God doesn't exist. I Think that this is a way to answer and and we you know going back to what we talked about in the podcast with You know the Ben Shapiro interview of MacArthur Ben Shapiro Has him on and MacArthur was Answering Ben Shapiro's questions very much with a presupposition away.

He was not taking things out actually what we could even play. Let me play a clip of MacArthur. Here's here was one of the clips.

Of why there has to be a God. Why should they take any of this seriously and not just think okay. It's a compilation of various texts by various old people over time. Why should they take the Bible seriously in the first place?

Well, I think the Bible is its own defense.

I've never defended the Bible. I've just preached it and then here is another question that got asked and again a nice good presuppositional answer.

And what do you think is the the key distinguishing factor between the philosophy of Christianity and the philosophy of Judaism?

Well, first of all, I don't like to talk about it as a philosophy. I'd rather talk about it as a revelation.

Because it's divine. You see how in both of those and this is a good thing for folks who are doing Apologetics to be aware of this notice how MacArthur in both of those cases. He's asked the question.

The first one is why should be able to take the Bible seriously? He just brushes that off. This isn't an issue of Where people whether they take it seriously is a divine thing. Well, what about the philosophy?

No, no, it isn't a philosophy. This is Biblical truth. This is divine truth. It comes from God and therefore. That is the authority he places on it. Okay, and so what you end up seeing here is as we look at what MacArthur was was doing is he's giving a way of answering these things presuppositionally.

Now there's some folks who have some wrong views what presuppositional apologetics is. For many people presuppositional apologetics. They think is to ignore all evidence to deny that any evidence and just.

Either quote scripture or to to just. You know, well some people will just sit there and think that the way to do it is to ask, you know. Do you can you know everything for sure? And if they say no, then you say we'll see then there God must exist and they don't explain it sometimes unfortunately.

But presuppositional apologetics is really quite simple it is the fact that there's two presuppositions that we hold to that we that we don't try to prove because You cannot prove them and that is God exists and he has spoken why can't you prove them?

Anything that you could use to try to argue. To prove God's existence or to prove God's Word is actually God's Word. Would have to be greater than God and greater than the Bible. Because it has to be it would have to be a greater source.

The ultimate source for everything is God. Now we can we can sit easily and we could take if we want we can end up taking people who want to argue that. They want to argue that God is. That God's, you know needs to be proven you need to have some argument.

You could take someone that says that God does not exist. I can sit with them and Go through. Simple things that show that their views are impossible to be thrown. Matt Slick likes to do this with the tag argument.

You can look at things like the laws of logic. You could look at things like morality and you end up seeing that there has to be an absolute universal source. And the only possible one is God himself.

Where do we get morality from? We get that from the nature of God. So the question gets asked why is rape wrong? And and people will give different answers Jim. You know, you've gotten some answers, but the typical ones I hear is harm.

That does harm to people you're harming another person. But if you think about it if we say okay we do harm. So if I remove the harm done then rape wouldn't be wrong so that could be removed. There was a Dentist who had raped several women and had them when they were under anesthesia.

They were not even aware. They didn't even know that there was any harm done. They didn't even know that it had occurred. It wasn't until one woman had realized. Well, she knew she hadn't been with anybody and she was pregnant.

Something happened worked it out to the only possible case and sure enough paternity test proved that to be true. Now there were other women that also were in a similar situation when it came out and the interesting thing prior to the knowledge of the rape, they did not suffer the effects of Rape of someone that's been raped.

They didn't have the trauma after they found out that's when they realized The harm was in Finding out that you were raped not the actual rape. So then rape wouldn't be wrong. It would be telling people that rape is wrong.

And when you argue this way what people will end up very quickly doing very quickly is go to consent. Well, it wasn't consented. Now, I don't know why consent somehow makes things morally right or wrong because if you think about it if consent is required then every parent is Morally wrong when they tell their children to do something and the child disagrees the child's not consenting.

In fact, you may have to consent to obeying speed limits. Is that morally wrong? It's consent. Something that makes something morally right and wrong. You see consent is not something that you can use as an argument for morality.

Because there's plenty of cases where we do things not with consent but because an authority says so We don't can consent to it and yet it's not morally wrong. So when you get to how would a Christian how should a Christian answer the question of why rape is wrong?

Very simple. Rape is wrong because God is not a rapist. You see we get our morality from the nature of God. So the fact that we have with God that he says Something doesn't make it right and wrong. This is to take away the you for throw dilemma that people say well God says it's wrong and that's what makes it.

No, no. No, it's not wrong because God says so it's wrong because it is not within the nature of God. It's not God's nature. That's what makes it wrong. Jim have you. You've you've done a fair bit of evangelism and run into people.

When people try to argue that there is no absolute morality. How do you usually try to argue?

Certain things that everybody would agree is morally wrong. If they would object to these things being morally wrong torturing two-year-olds for fun rape. Murdering people the things that with the big ones, you know the ones that everybody would recognize and this is obviously Morally reprehensible and you try to agree get them to agree that.

Yeah, I recognize that those things are wrong but then Then you always got to go back to the grounding question because we all recognize that there is a moral standard. The atheists agree with us when they say that there's a moral standard.

But what they cannot do is ground that moral standard in something transcendent beyond their own preferences or their own. Or their own ideology their own thinking. So I try and get them to say why is that wrong?

Is it always wrong. Under what circumstances is it wrong? Because you just think it's wrong. If you are an atheist then give me some some way of grounding your moral your moral enterprise that is outside of and beyond you because if it's just wrong because you think it's wrong then Then I could say that while the rape isn't wrong because I don't think it's wrong.

So you have to get them to try and ground. You're trying to get them to ground that morality and then when they try to do so without God in the picture. That is when I find that it's easy to take them right back to Showing that they basically have both feet firmly planted in midair as a great coco would like to say.

Yeah, because if you if you remove the absolute nature of morality you end up with nothing. I mean nothing is now wrong and you could you know You can very easily go through and work through the issue of the Holocaust Nazi, Germany.

Because the question is was that wrong now for folks who actually studied much on the Holocaust when the Germans soldiers who were involved in the concentration camps had been captured and went on trial.

One of the arguments they made is our society said this is true. Our society agreed this is moral therefore you can't impose your morality on us and tell us we're wrong and The appeal that people made was that there was an absolute standard there's what they did was wrong and Everybody can know that that was basically the argument that got made and that's why they ended up Having the trial now the way that most people will argue if you say That well take whatever the issue is and people will say well it's it's moral because the society Says that it is and when they say that you just can easily go to Nazi Germany, so was it right you can ask the question.

Where is the United States and Britain and all the other nations in the accesses the only ally allies were they all wrong When they went up against Germany Was it wrong to attack Germany based on the things they were doing?

Now a Person that wants to say that morality is something that's subjective ends up having to Argue that no what they did wasn't wrong that what they you know. Because they're their society accepted it.

But they know they shouldn't say that they know it was wrong and so what do they end up doing they start trying to find wiggle room. They try to find some other way to argue their way Around this and what ends up happening when they do that is you slowly start to see if you take this piece by piece.

You will start to see that ultimately they're gonna get down to might makes right. Okay, they're gonna get to well society decided. Yeah, but in that in the society in Nazi Germany there were 11 million people that were murdered 6 million Jewish people and They obviously didn't agree.

So why is it that the Nazis were they get to decide what's morally, right? Fair question. The answer usually is that they got elected the people voted for them. They put them in power. So it's the fact that they're in power.

Oh, yes, they will you can walk them down. They always get to that point it's it's because they're in power and Really what that comes down to is might makes right and when they get to that point Once you get someone that says might makes right I usually ask so you would then accept that rape is okay, and they say no.

They never want to say that but if you think about it, isn't that what rape is. Rape is a might makes right if The person doing the raping is stronger than the rape occurs if the person who's being victimized is stronger.

Then the rape isn't going to happen. It is always a might makes right and so the thing when we look at the arguments that they make to try to say that morality is somehow a Subjective and not objective that it's something that we can decide.

It's not an absolute universal standard that comes from the nature of God. They say that because of one simple thing if Morality is absolute They're accountable to God that's really what it comes down to and When we take a presuppositional argument, we don't give up the fact that God exists.

We don't try to argue for let me prove that God exists. Let me prove that the Bible is is true. The Bible is true for a very simple reason because the author God Cannot lie. That's Titus 1 2 and when you have someone that cannot lie who is good and kind and faithful and true then when he says something it has those qualities to it and therefore anything that God writes down would be true and So God used mentor.

He wrote through men so that we have the Bible. There's nothing we can use to try to prove the Bible is God's Word, I mean you can look at prophecies those are fine. That's a great. That's the thing that that I ended up coming to accept that the New Testament was Written by God was because I saw all the fulfilled prophecy.

You can look at the prophecies to see that Jesus was prophesied that he would come that he would be God that he would reign. That he would die for his people. You can look at all those prophecies and see that he fulfilled them.

Now those are evidences that we can use but I use those evidences to support the presupposition that I take without question God exists he has spoken. You see I'm not gonna put God on trial as if we have to prove him.

No, we're the ones that get put on trial and the fact is many of the professing atheists and why do I say professing atheists because well going back to that photo that I showed them not really a meme but That chart that the guy put up.

Every single human being according to Romans 1 every single human being knows that God exists though some suppress that truth in unrighteousness and so. With that we got some folks that that came in. I don't.

I'm looking to see. I think Vince you came in first and then James then John. I don't know if you guys have anything you want to ask any questions you have or if you even want to just chat more about Presuppositional apologetics and what we're started with.

So I have brought all of you guys in so Larry just came in so I'll bring Larry up. So if any of you guys What do you guys think about the arguments that that made. I know you guys all agree with presuppositional apologetics.

So I don't think you're gonna at least those mentioned. I think.

One of the things I want to make sure recently that we definitely Include on our presuppositional Apologetics is to always make sure we start with the gospel and then with the gospel. I think sometimes we forget to.

That's the main focus and so I just been conscious of that lately. That I make sure that the gospel is front and center and in the end of priests up apologetic because that's really the power to You know convert people.

I didn't hear a lot of what y 'all were talking about came in late. So I'm not too sure which are well.

You're not the only one that came in late. Actually someone else just got in here. Could that be. Oh look at that that is the slick one himself is actually here.

Get him a slick one. That's right.

No, I had a doctor's appointment and Here I am Traffic and all of that. You missed. You missed the intro and so did John but I played that that clip from about a year Ago Matt where we had the guy that came in and said.

But he wasn't sure if babies exist.

And John lost it. That was. That's a that's one of my favorite said. Well, you're one so that's over. Yeah.

I am almost tempted to do something Matt just for the value. I was just sent that video and someone said that they were given permission for me to To show the video, but I haven't. I didn't even watch it.

I don't know if we should just play it but it is classic. What's that about? Actually, you might have been there. It started this is it started from a an African American friend of mine Cliff and I know you've met him but you probably don't remember him because well, you don't remember anybody but Cliff was telling me that we were talking about different preaching styles things like that and Cliff said that when you're in the African-american churches you could be preaching a nursery rhyme and People would amen it as long as you have the cadence down and you have that right and I said no way no like you Can't he's like, oh, yeah, I'm nursery rhyme and we were at this missionary housing place and he literally starts doing little miss Muffet sat on her tuffet eating her curds way and he's doing it with this cadence and No joke.

This woman is walking past and just goes amen brother preach it and I just Couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. So we actually got him to to video him doing Preaching a nursery. Yeah, so I should I should see if I could pull this down and we can maybe play that we'll have to see.

Okay, I'll see if I can add it to my Dropbox. That might take some time so Matt you're you're getting older. Oh, here we go. I don't know how long this is. Should we play this Matt? Yeah. All right. Let's let's play this.

Let me Share the screen here. I Don't know how long this is, but I hope I'm gonna let's see. Cliff gave permission for you to use this. Just want to make sure I just want to make sure I said make sure he didn't say, you know.

He said Cliff didn't want to be seen as clowning around or disrespecting God. He trusts that you will not use it in that manner. So I'll say it this way that yeah, I mean, this is this is not Cliff clowning around.

It's not Cliff. It's actually Cliff doing something that I think is helpful for for us. It was for me to realize that there are people can be deceived just in the way That this cadence works that people get into an emotional Response system.

This is very much like what Charles Finney had done, but let's play this turn it up. Yeah can't hear it. Okay, let me see maybe the No, it's technical on your your tech challenged. Yeah, I'm not. I just I'll turn up that.

Okay, how's that?

You Can't hear that. No. It's alright. All right.

So we're just talking about. He was saying the amen. So I'll say if I turn it up a little more see if you get it now.

If there's a URL on YouTube, just give it to us we can go. I.

Mean it was a he actually goes through and and does this whole thing of where he Preaches a nursery rhyme and and I. Mean when you get that cadence going and Matt, let's talk about this. Let me ask you this Charles Finney known as one of the the great preachers of his time.

But unfortunately, unfortunately, so so why do you say unfortunately and what is it that he's a heretic?

Okay, so the theology. Yeah theology is a Pelagian and Works righteousness and sinless perfectionism blah blah blah. Okay. Anyway, yeah. So what was it that?

Made. That got Charles Finney to get so much attention that people they was referred to as the great awakening.

Don't you don't know the story Finney? He had a shark fin hat Finney. That's it. That's how he got people.

Well, he he was known for using emotionalism. It was. I didn't know. Okay. Yeah. No, he was. Well he's the one that created the the Thing they called it called it the anxious bench to get people to an emotional state that they would come forward.

I first you got to raise your hand then you got to stand up then you got to walk out of the aisle and Then you got to walk down the aisle. And all these little steps to get people into an emotional frenzy.

And and the music was a big part. You see this with Billy Graham music big part. You see this also Benny Hinn.

You know God and Pentecostal churches, that's what I grew up in and that's what they use to really bring out emotions music big-time along with all the.

Jesus culture stuff and yeah, just all that stuff. They all bring everything out as far as music goes that they play hours upon hours of Music to get you into a some kind of a trance. Hey, yeah. Yeah, and it's quite scary the way they do this.

Same here, man. Yeah, and you know we have we have Justin Peters pastor in here. Jim Osmond and Jim. You know and Justin always says that. You know what you end up having is. And just I say that Jim has been dropped.

But you know what you end up having is. Justin Peters always says that you can't have the Benny Hinn's and the and all those guys without the music he said though they'll go like three hours of Trying to create that emotional frenzy state and get people.