Al Mohler Interview

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. We're here to take your calls as well. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. It's radio ministry.

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This is Mike Abendroth. It's good to be back here in the studio in Auburn, Massachusetts. Basically our format is this, we are called

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No Compromise Radio and we have the slogan of always biblical, always provocative, always in that order.

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And so we want to make sure we analyze things from a biblical perspective, and with propositional truth.

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By nature, it is against things, and so I think of J. Gresham Machen and how he would say that if you want to avoid controversy, you probably should just close your

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Bible. And we are here to stimulate thought and get you to think about what the

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Bible teaches. Typically on Thursdays we address issues in evangelicalism, current issues in evangelicalism.

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Wednesdays we like to talk about books, review books, and also interview authors.

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Well we want to switch things around today because we want to talk to Dr. Al Mohler today. It was about one month ago when

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I started this show, No Compromise Radio Ministry, and I said two men in particular really stand out to me as examples of who

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God has used to stand up for the truth, to stand up for Christ Jesus, for grace alone, and those two men were

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John MacArthur and Dr. Al Mohler. Sometimes I like to call this show

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No Neville Radio, No Neville Chamberlain Radio. And when I think of Dr. Al Mohler, I think of him as a spiritual

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Winston Churchill. And we'll talk a little bit to Al Mohler here just real soon, and I think you'll hear why he is such a man.

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Anyway, Dr. Mohler, are you on the line? I'm here, Mike. Great to be with you. Thank you. Great to have you. You don't mind me calling you a spiritual

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Winston Churchill, do you? Let me tell you, there are few secular names that could cause me a greater joy than hearing the name of Winston Churchill.

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Have you been in my study? No, there are not. There's not just one, there are two portraits of Churchill in my study.

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That's right. Well I've got to be in your study a couple times. Dr. Akin took me there once, and so I know your fascination and love for Winston Churchill.

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Well we need equal courage in this day, for sure. Absolutely. Well, I mainly want to have you on the show today to talk about your new book,

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Words from the Fire, Hearing the Voice of God and the Ten Commandments on Moody, just released this

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September. And I thought, Dr. Mohler, you could give us a little encapsulation of what the book is and why you wrote it, and some motivation behind it.

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We've got about 24 minutes, so just feel free to talk away. Well, Mike, I wrote the book because I have always been fascinated by the

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Ten Commandments. And even as I've been fascinated by the Ten Commandments all my life, I've been somewhat frustrated by the way

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Christians talk about the Ten Commandments. We really reduce them to ten little moral principles on the one hand, and then we get engaged in all kinds of fights about posting them on the courthouse walls or wherever, getting into legal battles.

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The bigger issue is that the one true and living God speaks to his covenant people. And you know, there's the miracle, and when you read the book of Deuteronomy in particular, as Moses is helping this new generation that has been wandering in the wilderness, this is the generation of the children whose parents have now perished in the wilderness, they're being prepared to enter the land of promise,

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Moses is going to give them the law again as God speaks the law through him, he's going to repeat it in Deuteronomy chapter 5.

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In Deuteronomy chapter 4, he says, remember, we heard the voice of God speaking from the fire and survived.

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And you know, you think about that, for the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, what an important reminder of the fact that everything we know is because God has spoken to us.

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If God had not spoken to us, we'd be left completely in the darkness. God did call Israel before him, and he spoke to Israel out of the fire, and as Moses reminded those children now grown into adulthood that they had better remember and heed and obey what

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God spoke from the fire, so would we. And when you look back to the Ten Commandments and you put them in the perspective of a biblical theology,

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Mike, they're not ten little moral principles. They are the most amazingly transformative commandments from our

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Lord that show us the purpose for which we were made, and what it means for us to please him.

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Well, absolutely. I loved your book for lots of reasons. One is you have the same view of the law as I do.

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That always helps. But when I read the book, Dr. Mohler, really in the last year, and I'm not trying to flatter you, but in the last year, all the books

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I've read, I think this one has captured my mind. Even at the beginning, when you talk about Deuteronomy 4, and then you discuss the silent idols, yet the speaking

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God, that just captured my thinking. Tell the listeners about that. Well, you know, in the

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Old Testament, Israel is continuously warned against all forms of idolatry, and of course that will show up first and foremost in the

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Ten Commandments and the First Commandment. But the big distinction between the one true and living God and all the idols is that God talks.

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It's the most amazing thing. I remember one time, Mike, sitting in a Waffle House, and I was traveling, and I didn't have a lot of choices.

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My wife and I ended up eating at a Waffle House with our 3 -year -old little girl, and she was fascinated by sitting there on the stool while the guy was cooking, and she was watching the guy cook.

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Well, we were there for about 30 minutes. The guy hadn't said a word. Then all of a sudden, he turns around and speaks to her, looks at her, and says something. And she just looked up at us and goes, he talks!

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She was just absolutely amazed. She hadn't heard anything out of him before. I don't know what she was thinking. But you know, the most amazing thing about the

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God of Israel is that the children of Israel went, wait a minute. He talks. He speaks to us. And his reality as the only living

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God is demonstrated by the fact that he speaks. You may remember in 1 Kings 18, the great battle of the gods, here is

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Elijah, the one prophet of Jehovah, and against him are arrayed 850 of the idolatrous priests,

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Baal and Asherah. And there on Mount Carmel, all Elijah says is, if God is

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God, let the fire fall. Let God speak from heaven by fire. And he did. And so,

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God does what he says, he says what he does, he speaks. He doesn't leave us in darkness. Meanwhile, the priests of the idols are straining to hear even a peep, and nothing is heard.

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Well, my wife told me when I went to India one year, Dr. Mohler, that I was not to bring home any idols.

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And so that's, of course, what I wanted to do, and I brought this little goddess home, and I sat that goddess on my kitchen table just a while ago after I read your book, and I said to my children,

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I have four children, tell me something about this small idol. And they finally got to the point where they said, he has a mouth, but he cannot speak.

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There you go. And here we have this God, and you're quoting Carl Henry, where God forfeits his own personal privacy so that we might get to know him.

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That's a fascinating thing about our Lord. Isn't that humbling to realize that God has forfeited his personal privacy?

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He didn't have to do this. He didn't have to make us. He didn't have to make us in his image. He didn't have to clothe us with his glory.

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He certainly was under no obligation to redeem us by the blood of his son, but he was under no compulsion to even speak to us.

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And I love what Calvin says about this. He said that God loves us so much that if he spoke to us directly, we'd be destroyed.

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If he spoke to us with his full, infinite voice, we would be annihilated. But God loves us so much that in the

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Scriptures, he bends over like a kindly father and whispers to us so that we hear and are not destroyed.

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Well, that is wonderful. For those who are just tuning in, we're talking to Dr. Al Mohler, and Dr. Mohler's new book,

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Words from the Fire, is a book that everyone listening should get. Everyone should get so they can understand the person and character of God, and also the

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Ten Commandments. Dr. Mohler, tell the listeners how the Ten Commandments relate to the Church today versus Israel.

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Is it the same? How much continuity, discontinuity? Why should a listener want to study the

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Ten Commandments today if they are in a local church? That's a great Christian question. You know, we as Christians sometimes—well, almost,

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I would have to say, reflexively confuse law and grace. And one of the realities of the Gospel is that it's always demonstrated over against, in its glory and in its graciousness, over against the law.

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But it's not that the law is our enemy. That's what Paul makes so clear in Romans chapter 7. He says we should be thankful for the law because the first purpose of the law is to convict us of sin, which shows us our need for a

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Savior. So as we as Christians think about the law, you know, I hear many Christians make dismissive statements or even disparaging statements about the law.

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Paul will not do that. In the book of Romans, he says, you never say one foul word about the law. If it were not for the law,

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I wouldn't have known I was a sinner. I would not have known I needed a Savior. The problem is not the law. The problem is sinners. And the law is not powerful to save.

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Only Christ saves. But the law is powerful to convict us of our sin and to tell us what our sin is.

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I love where the Apostle Paul in Romans 7 says, I was a covetor, but I didn't know it until the law came and said, thou shalt not covet.

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And that is still, by the way, that is one of the most surprising of the commandments because it shows up just about as much as any of the commandments in Scripture and perhaps equaled only by adultery in terms of the

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Bible's presentation of these kind of clues to help us understand our sin. So we have to know we're sinners.

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The law is also important because it's instructive to us. The law shows us how

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God is glorified in our lives, and it does point us towards what's good for us. And you know,

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Mike, one of the things I try to point out in this book time and time again is that we in, say, 21st century postmodern

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America, we tend to talk about rules and laws and commandments. We reflectively think of them as if they're kind of a prison into which we're thrown.

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You know, you just have to live by these laws. You are forced to live by these commandments. And well, there certainly is binding authority in these commandments.

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This is God Himself speaking to His human creatures. In the Old Testament context, it was God speaking to His covenant people,

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Israel, to say, this is what I expect of you. But Israel didn't hear these laws as if they were all of a sudden a prison into which they were thrown.

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They heard these laws as grace. And there is grace in the law. The law can't save. It is not gracious to save, but it is gracious to show our need for a

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Savior. And you know, it shows us where true human joy and happiness are going to be found. Well, I think,

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Dr. Moeller, you wanted to make sure we did not understand lawless grace or graceless law.

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I thought that was very insightful. Well, you know, there are people who think, and this was what the Apostle Paul had to confront in Romans, there are people who think that grace is an occasion to live lawlessly.

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And that just is not a New Testament option at all. May it never be. Yes. And on the other hand, there are people who speak of the law disparagingly, and there's grace in the law, not the grace that saves, but the

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God who saves us in Christ has given us the law that we would know our need for Him. Let's talk about one of the particular commandments, the first commandment, and you say in your book, it commands exclusivity.

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When you said, Dr. Moeller, quote, the idol is a nothing, but it is a dangerous nothing.

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I had to just stop and do a little say -la moment there, that an idol is nothing, but it's a dangerous nothing.

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What did you mean by that? Well, it's a nothing, as you know, the great prophet Isaiah says, it's nothing at all.

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But there are a lot of things that are nothing at all that are very dangerous. You know, a lie is nothing at all, but a lie does very dangerous things, both the one who tells it and to the one who hears it.

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And so the idol is so seductive. You know, the reality is that in our spiritual blindness, Mike, we'll go for the nothing rather than the infinite something.

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And so we've got to be really, really careful. It's just chastening and humbling to me to read the Old Testament and realize at how many points

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Israel, that it heard from the one true and living God, is still seduced by idols. And so is the church.

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You know, you not only have, I just mentioned 1 Kings 18, well, you have, you know, the very clear warnings to the letters that are in the letters to the churches in Revelation, where all of a sudden

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Jezebel shows back up, and they're in Thyatira. And so we just have to be very, very clear that, you know, idolatry is not just an old problem, it's a very modern problem.

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I think of 1 John 5, where John, the loving apostle, grandfatherly -like apostle, doesn't even end his letter with some kind of grace to you and peace, it's, little children, guard yourself from idols.

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Absolutely. So that is exactly right. Tell me a little bit, with the listeners in mind, this is

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Dr. Al Mohler on the line, and he's the author of Words from the Fire, a new book on Moody, a book that you need to read this year.

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Tell our listeners a little bit about, if you've got a wrong worship, if you're worshiping wrongly, what does that tell you about your theology?

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Well, it tells you that if you're worshiping wrongly, you're worshiping an idol, because our worship betrays the God we really believe in.

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And so if we're worshiping in a way that violates Scripture, we're not actually worshiping

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God at all. We're actually worshiping an idol of our own invention, which is exactly what

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Israel's warned not to do here. Oh, and by the way, they're also violating the command not to take the name of the

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Lord in vain, because to worship him wrongly is explicitly to take his name in vain. If we say we're worshiping the one true and living

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God, and then our worship is actually ordered by something else, then we're taking his name in vain.

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Well, I know this book is not written as a satire, it's not a comedy, but when

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I read you writing about Spong, John Shelby Spong, and you said, he's running out of material because there are no doctrines left for him to deny,

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I had to laugh. Well, you know, and it isn't written as satire, but it's hard to look at a situation like that and realize satire is just about the only thing we can say in response.

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I mean, here is a man who's now a retired bishop of Newark, New Jersey, the Episcopal Church. He has gone through a series of books in which he's denied every

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Christian doctrine imaginable, and I think he's run out. I don't think there are any more that he can—he has the latest book out,

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Denying Eternal Life. I think he's reached the end. Well, I hope

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God graciously opens his heart. If God could save Paul the Apostle, he could save Spong, and I would love that to happen.

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Tell us about the Lord's Day, Dr. Mohler. I thought that was good insight regarding Sabbath versus the Lord's Day, and your comments in your book about it's not necessarily what you're not supposed to do, like we would think of the

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Sabbath, but what you're to do regarding the Lord's Day. Tell our listeners about that, please. Yeah, there's a real revolution between the

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Old Testament and the New Testament concerning the day. And by the time you get to the end of the

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New Testament, it's clear, both in Acts and just a passage like Revelation chapter 1, the early

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Christians were worshiping, gathering together on the Lord's Day, and we're told it was because it was the day of Christ's resurrection from the dead.

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And there is absolutely no New Testament command concerning the

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Sabbath, concerning the seventh day. So what we understand is that that fourth commandment is pointing us to what all ten of the commandments are pointing us to, and that is that every one of them is fulfilled only in Christ.

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And so the continuing witness of that fourth commandment is to the priority of Christ in our lives and even on a day.

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But it's not like in Israel's experience of the Sabbath, mostly a day in which it's marked by what we do not do.

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It's not for Christians primarily a day of rest. It's primarily a day of gathering, celebrating for worship.

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It does speak to priority, and this is where we are standing against the law of God, and we're standing against our own responsibility to gather together and to worship.

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When we do not make the Lord's Day a priority in our lives, and we do not make worship on that day the greatest priority, then we're really violating what it means to be

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Christ people who would gather together naturally, not because of obligation but because of joy, on the

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Lord's Day with fellow believers to worship, to hear the Word of God, and to celebrate together.

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What would a typical Lord's Day be for you, Dr. Mohler? Walk us through the day in terms of what you might do or not do, and I know there's probably some rest there, but what would be a typical

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Lord's Day for you if you're not traveling? Well, if I'm not traveling, and regardless of whether I'm in town or not,

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I'm preaching. There are very few Sundays, almost none, when

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I am not preaching at least once. And so, well, here in Louisville, I'll be in one worship service not preaching, and then

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I'll be preaching in the next service, and that's the focal point of the day. You know, our family gets ready for that, we're energized and focused for that, we pray about that, we arrive together, we worship together.

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I find no greater privilege in my life than standing up and teaching and preaching the Word of God, an expository message.

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And then we'll share a meal together as a family, and then we'll have some time of rest and some time together and time of reflection and conversation.

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And you know, quite frankly, it's a day in which we focus on the week ahead and what we're going to be doing. It's an important together day for us.

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I want to be careful, Mike, because there are some who have to work on Sunday. I mean, there are people that drive ambulances and work in power plants and do all kinds of things.

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Like in the first century, most of those early Christians were slaves and workers who had to work on that day.

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But the one thing we know is that whenever they had the opportunity to establish the priority in their lives, that priority was worship.

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You know, you think of Eutychus in the book of Acts, there he was worshiping in an upper story window as they were worshiping, obviously late at night, as I'm at the midnight hour.

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Well, if they had to work all day, that's when they gathered together. I'm thankful that for most of us, we don't have to wait until midnight.

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We can gather together much earlier. What a shame it is that Christians do not give themselves to that priority.

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Absolutely. Speaking of preaching, how am I going to bribe you to come up here and preach in the pastor's graveyard in New England, Dr.

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Mohler? Listen, it'd be a great honor. Whenever it can be worked out on my calendar, I'd love to be there. I had to bribe

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Steve Lawson to come up by taking him to Princeton, touring him around there to some Cotton Mather sites,

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George Whitfield sites, and Edwards as well, so the offer is open for you, too. I'd love to revisit those sites.

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I had the opportunity to preach in Miller Chapel there at Princeton Theological Seminary for an event.

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It wasn't a Princeton Seminary event, they've not invited me to speak. But we were using their campus for the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and you know, to preach there in that chapel, where the founder of my seminary sat as a student.

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I have to tell you, that was a very powerful thing. You are there in one of the most strategic places of ministry, and I'm thankful that you yourself hold those convictions that those men you mentioned once held.

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I'm thankful for their rebirth in New England. Well, Dr. Mohler is not just an author, but he's also the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, known as Southern Seminary, and we have an adjunct campus here in Northboro, which is about 15 miles from the studio in Worcester, and we are looking forward to seeing how

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Southern Seminary, if I can use this term, churns out men of God with a high view of God.

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Tell us about Southern Seminary and some exciting things going on there, Dr. Mohler. Oh, Mike, I really appreciate that, and we're thrilled to be in partnership with you there in Massachusetts, in the

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Boston area and beyond. You know, this was a seminary established 150 years ago this year. I mean, 150 years.

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Just think about that. To us, it's a very humbling thing. It began with nine students. Now we have 4 ,500 students, which for a theological seminary, well, the average size is about 180, so we're 25 seminaries on one campus and then with extensions around the world.

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We're just extremely thankful. You know, Mike, the big story is that this is a seminary that went liberal, and the

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Lord has given us a second chance to pull it back, and over the last 17 years, the

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Lord has allowed us to pull it back, you know, all the way to its founding convictions. And listen, if it can be done here by the sovereign power of God, then that ought to give you hope in New England as well.

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Absolutely. There are not many schools in all of church history that have had the revival that Southern Seminary has had, and Dr.

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Mohler, maybe it's just some apocryphal stories. Maybe it's Danny Akin telling me something,

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I forgot how he told me, but didn't in fact you tell the professors there who were liberal, this is our statement of faith, and you

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A, must believe it, and B, you must teach it, or in effect, you're going to be moving on. I did that in my very first opening convocation message in August of 1993.

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I was a young man then, and I knew why the Lord had brought me here, and I got up and I read the

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Confession of Faith. Every single member of this faculty had signed to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, all that was contained therein.

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I just pointed out that I'd read their contract, and this is what it said, and if they were going to teach this, they were welcome to stay, if not, they would have to go.

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And the reality is that almost all of them left. But the Lord has brought a new faculty here, committed to those truths and to the inerrancy of Scripture, and it's just a sovereign work of God, and every single day,

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I get to see the happy result of what God has done here. And Dr. Mohler, I think you would agree, we haven't even yet to see the final result, as the hundreds and thousands of men who are equipped to preach the

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Word go out and serve in Southern Baptist churches and other churches, which will cause,

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I think, some kind of great effect for the Lord and His Kingdom. Well, I certainly pray so,

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Mike. You know, people ask me, am I optimistic or pessimistic? Well, the Christian can't afford to be optimistic, and we certainly cannot be pessimistic.

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I would say that the Christian's proper response is to always be hopeful. But if I ever need a little reason for my hope, all

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I need to do is walk out with these students to see what God is doing in this coming generation. It really is a miracle before our eyes.

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Let me just ask you a few questions. We've got about three or four minutes, Dr. Mohler. Did in fact you write the comment on the back of the

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David Buttrick homiletic book, where it said, homiletic is the most encyclopedic work in the modern period, etc.,

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and it said, from Preaching Magazine. Was that your quote? Well, I don't know that those are exact words, but yes,

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I wrote a review of it, and they picked up a part of it for a blurb, yes. Okay. Because I show my students,

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I said, I think that was the old Dr. Mohler. I don't know why he was writing a good critique of the

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David Buttrick homiletic book after 500 pages. Buttrick said, oh, by the way, you don't need the scriptures to preach.

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Yeah. You know, the amazing thing is that, you know, by common grace, some of what he suggests in terms of understanding the sermon is actually pretty helpful until you get to the end, and he takes it all back.

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Amazing. But that's one of the foibles of writing a book review. People can take a quote out of it, and, well, let's just say

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I'd like to take that one back. Well, I'm not trying to put you, you know, put the screws to you, but this is no compromise radio,

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I thought. I've always wanted to ask Dr. Mohler that question, and when I see you at the Shepherds Conference or someplace like that, it's always so busy,

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I don't get an opportunity to talk to you. Yeah. I'll tell you a story here. This is real quick. You might enjoy this. I had a horribly heretical person send me a manuscript of his book.

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I debated him on Larry King Live, and he sent me the manuscript of his book and asked for a blurb. And I just ignored it, thinking it was a joke, and his publicist called and pressed the case asking for an endorsement on the back, and I said, if I wrote anything,

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I would have to say this is the most horrid, heretical, awful, wretched book I've ever read in my life. And the publicist said, that would be great.

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Oh, yeah, that'll sell. See, that'll sell. I think we've got about a minute.

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Tell me in a minute about your friendship with Dr. MacArthur and how that came about. You know, I consider

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John MacArthur one of the greatest heroes of the faith. He is just a man whose legacy is so great, his shadow is so long.

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Here's a guy who for 40 years has been pastoring a church, relentlessly expositing the

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Word of God, and he's such a wonderful human being. I admired him. I can still remember,

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Mike, the very first John MacArthur sermon ever heard on tape. And now there have been something like 15 million of those tapes distributed, and on the

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Internet, an entire vault opened, and I just want to commend your folks. I ought to go to grace to you and just really feast on the expository riches there.

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But to get to know him as a man, what a great thing to find out, that when you actually get to know him, he's even greater than you could have imagined.

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Great heart, great sense of humor, tremendous insights, deep conviction, and I'm just encouraged every time

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I was with him, I am with him, and he's recovering from knee surgery right now and doing extremely well.

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He went back into his pulpit a couple of Sunday nights ago after some time out to recover, and I just sent out a message on Twitter saying, the lion is back in his pulpit.

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And so he is. Great. Well, speaking of heroes of the faith, Dr. Moeller, you are definitely, by the grace of God, a hero for the modern

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Christian faith, and you can also be heard regularly on almoeller .com. You have a live radio show,

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Words from the Fire, Hearing the Voice of God and the Ten Commandments. I would commend all the listeners on podcast or listening live today to go out and get a copy of that Moody book, and you will pick it up.

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And I started it on a Friday night and was done on Saturday morning. What about the Ten Commandments, and how can we learn about God and the

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Ten Commandments? Dr. Moeller, we're about out of time. Thank you so much for your time today. Mike, God bless you, and best wishes for No Compromise Radio.

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I'm thankful to have you as a colleague on the air. Thank you. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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