Freedom of Spirit — Norman Grubb

Freedom of Spirit — Norman Grubb

So I'm sharing with you what I find through the Scriptures, and by the Spirit, what it is to be a real person, a completed person. And I wouldn't share if it wasn't what I, by the grace of God, know myself.

And knowing is inside you. Because we're spirits. Jesus said God's a spirit. Spirit's the person, therefore the person in you is a spirit. A spirit of knower, of a lover, of a chooser. That's all we are.

He fathered our spirits. He created our souls and bodies. Our souls are our means of expressing ourselves, and our bodies express ourselves. We are spirit. He's spirit, we're spirit. That's why you have united him.

Like father, like son. Things aren't spirits, we are. Spirit and knower. Paul said, what man knows the things of man, said the spirit of everything. So knower is you. I know, I know, I know. That's you.

You operate because you know. You're comfortable in this room because you know it's a room. You live by knowing and you live by desiring. Love, all life, of course, is teeming with desire from the atomic power upwards.

Everything is a mass of desire, which is love. It depends on the way love goes. We want to satisfy our father's love. So a person's compiled of knowing and loving and then choosing. Choosing is what we nowadays call faith, or the Bible calls faith.

Putting yourself into something. Faith isn't theorizing about something, it's committing yourself to something. Now that's how you came here tonight, or this afternoon. You knew you could come. You desired to come.

You may be a little regretful a little later on, but at least you started to desire to come. So you know you could come. You could have, I'll come. That's a person. And your car, or your feet, only brought the I come here.

The I comes you. The I am is you. It's expressed through your emotions, that's your soul. Expressed through your reason, your rational faculties, that's your soul. Expressed through your body. But you are the knower, the desirer, and the chooser, which puts you in something, which is the faith.

That's all you are. That's all God is. That's all man is. And that's how we operate. And therefore to be a person, to know who I am, and then function as who I am. Now of course what the Bible teaches us, a real I am, is a union of the I am and my I am.

It's a union. The Bible says he, as he's joined to the Lord, is one spirit. One, not two. That's in 1 Corinthians 6, 17. It's your spirit. Get spirit isn't a kind of spook, it's a person. Because he's a spirit.

Jesus said God is spirit. So the person in the universe, all this is part of the person, isn't it? In the beginning he, it's all come up from him. It's manifestations of him in a variety of forms. You can't see him in a thing.

You can see a form of him in a thing. Everything is marvelous. You can see him in a person. That's why he has persons. He can reproduce himself in persons. Because he's a person. So we're spirits as he is.

Everything expresses him. Manifests his glory, and you can see him. I see him through everything. You can see his wonder, glory, beauty, everything. But that's not he. But persons is a form of him. And the Bible says he, we humans, since we're saved by grace, joined to the Lord, aren't we?

So a real person is a person who's a person. He's really God as a person. And you notice he isn't really he. He's a living God, and he's expressing the living God. That's big talk. That's what the Bible says.

Scripture, the Spirit, and the New Birth

So I'm talking about how to find out who we are. I find out who we are through the book, but the book must be interpreted by the spirit. The book's no good outside you. It's got to come inside you. Oh, that's what I know.

It's got to come out. That's why Jesus said, the words I speak unto you, they're spirit. Spirit's inside you. So they dissolve from being the book and become you. Oh, that's it. That's I. Now I take it.

I'm speaking to those who've begun that relationship. I can't say it to the audience this size, but I must take it you're born again. That's a fundamental matter. And if you're born again, it means you knew you were wrong.

That was a very great thing. You are not a right person. You're a wrong person. And the spirit of God operated on you through the law and through the gospel, because I'm a wrong person. So wrong I'm under a curse.

I'm under condemnation. I'm going to hell. I'm lost. And that made you mostly dissatisfied with yourself. And was there a way out? Could you be back to God? Could you get right with God? Could you go to heaven instead of hell?

Could you be forgiven? Could you have eternal life and so on? You became dissatisfied with yourself. And you found outside you in a book. Certain things were said. You can't live by an outside book. It's got to come inside you.

And the outside book told you about God loved like this. And he loves about his own person, his own son. He came and himself took upon what you come to us, took our sins on him, went to death, went to hell on our behalf where we can go and rose again to wipe out that condemnation and that guilt and that wrath and that destiny in hell.

That's outside you. But because you've become dissatisfied enough, if you've been born again you've been a dissatisfied person before you're a satisfied person. Dissatisfied with the old life where you tried to be satisfied.

Are you dissatisfied? You could have been satisfied. I want peace. I want forgiveness. I want to get rid of those wrong things in my life. I want power. I want God. I want heaven. I want hope and so on.

You can't live by wanting. You live by having. I'm not a wanter. I'm a have-er. I'm an is-er. Life isn't getting. It's a being. It isn't a getting. It's a being. When you're a getter you haven't got there yet.

When you're a be-er you have got there. Be-er and is-er. Now you were a wanter then. But I hope you're not on that level not a wanter now. But what happened was this because you're a free person. Now this is a great thing.

God showed me God's free. He only re-expressed it by freedom you see. Be persons that re-express God. People to see the living God through persons. So therefore you must be free because a person's free.

And so in our freedom we make our choices. And therefore if you're born again there came a moment when knowing first by the witness of God your disillusioned condition, God's condition. Hearing about this you can't live by what you hear.

It's got to be inside you. Hearing about it and being attracted by it. God loved like that and it says Jesus died like that and it says he rose again and is alive now. And that all this past is wiped out and you mean the essence of the family of God and eternal life and God becomes your father and Jesus is your saviour.

You hear that. Now you're a free person. You chose. Chose means you said alright Lord I'll take that as fact. It's the obedience of faith. See obedience isn't doing a lot of things. Obedience isn't praying more, reading more.

It's believing more. The Bible word, it's a word Paul used in the first chapter of Romans, the last chapter of Romans, actually it's a great letter. The first chapter is about the obedience of faith. The last chapter, last verse almost says the obedience of faith.

What's faith? Believe what God says. Prayer comes by hearing. Hearing by the word of God. Believe what God says. How do you believe? Alright, you're an inside person. That believing is your will. Alright, I'll do it.

You don't do anything but inside say okay, I'll believe that. I don't know what it means but he says that he died and he's risen and he's alive. I can't see him but I take a bigger leap. I'm going to believe him.

I believe he did die, did rise. I'm going to accept him and believe and he becomes my saviour and I believe him. My sins are being washed out and I should find out I'm a child of God and the family of God and so on.

And if you're born again you did that. And then you had the first experience of the true product of faith. See, everything is done by faith because faith is choice. But on earth you fulfill your own choices.

The Bible word on faith is faith is the substance of things hoped for. That's Hebrews chapter 1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. I think hoped for is insubstantial to you. It's insubstantial.

Where is it? I hope for it. Hope for it. Faith makes it fact to you. Faith makes a hoped for thing a fact to you. Faith is substance. Now you always do that. I couldn't prove this chair would hold me until I put faith.

I had to commit myself to it. Looking I didn't prove it to me. I said, what's happened? It holds me. I'm not holding up the chair, it's holding up me. So you put your faith in something, it comes back and says it's real to you.

Humanly you do it with your hands. Here's food, alright. You say, that's good food, I desire it, I'll take it. Now humanly you take it. Then you take you. It takes us differently. You have to have the alpha sense or whatever is necessary to put things right inside.

See faith always is a thing you take, take you. In other words you probably do it with your car. You take coming here and here you are. You take food, bring your food, here it is, take a chair. So all faith is operating, moving into something available because it's there and you desire it.

As you move into it, it becomes a fact to you. Now if you're born again, you've moved into real substance of faith, which is you took a person you can't see. On the basis of God's word, a person who isn't again, what happens?

He receives you. If you're born again, the spirit came back to you and says, yes he is your saviour. God is your father. You are forgiven. And that's come into you of peace, well I don't know how, but Jesus is my saviour.

God is my father. Now I remember his family. And what is still more wonderful really is you couldn't help but gain love. The Bible says when you're born again, Romans 5, when you have peace with God, peace is set, it's set selfishly away.

Oh thank, that fear's gone, those sins are gone, that judgment and hell is gone, I've got peace with God. That's wonderful. But that's just a personal matter. But then the Bible goes on to say when the spirit of God makes it real to you that Jesus is your saviour, the love of God is shed upon your hearts.

That's Romans 5, 5. By the Holy Ghost, not your love, the love of God is given you by the Holy Ghost. The love of God is shed upon your hearts by the Holy Ghost who has given it to you. And you begin to love.

Now that's when you've really begun to be a new person. You've begun to be an expression of God. See, God is love. And when you're born again, you think you love him. When I first, at 18 years of age, took Jesus, well he'd been no interest in me before, I was more interested in football than Jesus Christ, I thought I was a lost sinner.

And then I went to him as a lost sinner, oh that's why he died for me, I fell in love. Oh, he shed his blood to save me from hell, I fell in love. That wasn't my love, his spirit of love began to live in me.

That meant God began to live my life, you see. I didn't know it then. The spirit of God, whose spirit is love, began to operate in me and express his other love. That's the first time in my life I've loved somebody else more than myself.

If you're born again, you've begun to love somebody else more than yourself. That is Jesus Christ and Father and other people. This is new birth. So I'm talking to you, taking you already have a member of the spirit family.

And spirit is more real to you than matter. You now say, oh this is just passing stuff, it's temple, it's just made of a bunch of atoms that run about and disappear again. There's nothing much to it. Things are not seen eternal.

I'm talking to you, I'm taking you, no, the eternal is the living God, the living Son, the living Spirit, and you, and you, and you. And you're part of a living person. That's why you've got faith, you get more.

If you've got faith in him, you get a broken chair, you get a new chair. Because you take from the universe, he's the universal person, he's an invisible person. Father, Son, Spirit, you're part of him now.

You've been made a member of his family. So Spirit, Jesus and God, Father, more real to you than these things. You've been to operate faith on this level. And the first step of faith you took was that one, when you'd use your faith to get your food and get your chair and get so and so, and then got yourself.

This time in your need you couldn't get Jesus Christ, he's out to you. By faith you said, I'll take you. And then the Spirit came back, and in fact he said, yes, he's taken you. Yes, he has got, he is your Savior.

You do brother, you are saved indeed. You have the Heavenly Father and so on. I'm talking to you as such. Now I'm talking about those, you have got that. Yet you can't say you're totally satisfied. You can't say you can handle all life.

See, this life is not being handled by life, it's handling life. You're not life on top of you, you're on top of it. This life isn't sinking in the waters, it's walking on the waters. This life is gaiety and complete.

When you've got what you want, your life's fun to me. I live by fun. If I didn't find fun in Christianity, I'd try atheism instead. I like fun. Fun's all that's it, that's it. So life isn't, it's, oh, that's it.

From an Outside Christ to Christ Within

Now, I'm sort of saying to you, you probably wouldn't be here, thank you for calling again, maybe you are, you can't say you're wholly satisfied. You can't say you've got all the victory you ought to have, all the peace, and all the full meaning of life you ought to have.

There's something that isn't quite in focus yet. Now, that's what I'm talking about these days. As we go on, you'll find the reason is, you have a relationship to the outside Christ, and you haven't yet had it replaced by a relationship to an inside Christ.

See, when you're saved, you're a lost person, you hear your sins. When you read about Jesus Christ, there he was, he died, he rose again, you see him up there with the Father in heaven and the Holy Spirit, and you're related to an outside Christ, well, he's your saviour, hopefully more than he's your Lord, your Father, but it's this kind of relationship.

You don't live by this correlation, you live by this correlation. You live by being, not by coming. You don't live by keeping getting something. You live by something that's got you, and you live it. It's you, it's you, it's you.

You live by being yourself. It's the same principle as how you get a profession. You work a profession to get you. You don't operate your profession by getting it, do you? If you're a nurse, or a teacher, or a doctor, or a cook, you decide, it's got you.

Oh, I know my medicine. I know my carpentry. I know my cooking. I know my teaching. Somebody's got you. Now, oh, that's fine, I like to do my carpentry, I know my stuff. You operate your stuff. Oh, I like to cook, I know my cooking.

Your poor husband may be, but I hope you do anyhow. You know, oh, I like to do medicine. Because somebody's got you, it's part of you, and you operate it. That's what humans are. That's what gets you, operates you.

Now, I got that language. Well, I remember the struggle I had when I first had Bengali language. Oh, a lot of sounds. I never get, you know, kind of gibberish. But I must get it. Faith must get it, because I had to get the people, but I didn't know the language.

You get to them. I remember the day, not so long, it wasn't a difficult language. Maybe after some months, I began to talk, and it got me. Now, that's years ago, I can waste your time talking the language, now it's part of me.

Now, which is it, the language or me? The language has got me inside, and I can talk Bengali, I talk it, which is it, I am the language. You see, all life is being caught up by something, and you operate it.

See, that's the way it is. Now, the real truth of being a person is you're caught up by God, and God lives in you, and you operate Him. And you're expressing God, you're expressing His nature, expressing His love, expressing Himself, and you have an inner consciousness, I'm not I, I'm Christ, in me, operating by me.

Like, I'm not, that language is part of me, I speak it, it's inside me, I operate the language. You've got your press, you've got carpentry, I operate carpentry. You've got cooking, I operate cooking.

Which is it, you or the cooking? Which is it, you see? So, humans are made, so we're managing and expressing something which isn't, it is us, but it's got us. And faith is the thing by which this thing gets you, a profession gets you.

Now, we're talking about the profession, because we humans are made, the living, the person universe, the person who's all, of all the wisdom, all the power, all the, it's really you, and you know Him, and He lives in you, and you live, and it isn't really you living, and you speak, it isn't really you speaking, it's really He, and yet it's you.

And you, of course, when you've got Him, you've got that whole lot, and you've got Him, you've got all the power, you've got all the wisdom, you've got all the peace, you've got all the, all the necessary for life, you're complete.

Complete in Him. But to be complete in Him, it's because He's complete in you, and then you express it. Now, that's what we're talking about. I saw it in Paul's great word in Colossians, where I found he had two ministries that struck me as a young man.

If you read Colossians, he says, I have a ministry, first, to take the gospel to the world. Now, like, through the scriptures, to take, that's where, I spent my life doing that. Take the gospel to the world.

Take the saving Lord Jesus Christ to the world, and come to us. Now, he says, I do that. Then he went on. He says, but I have a second ministry. A second ministry, he said, he said, that is to fulfill the word of God, to fulfill it.

It's as if you gave part of it to the gospel, now to fulfill it. So you read it. He says, my first ministry is, I take the gospel to the world. Then I have a second ministry, he says, it's a gospel, it doesn't mean to do it, to the church, which is His body, he says, and that's to fulfill the word of God.

As if part of it was the gospel. Now, this is the fullness. And then he said, what is the fullness? He says, the fullness is, in one simple term, Christ in you, though of glory. See, if you have a total Christ in you, there's not much of anything else left.

Christ in you, there's not much you left, because he's pretty big. Christ in you, not Christ for you, Christ in you. Now, Paul said, this is a hidden mystery. He said, the riches of the glory. Of course, it's everything, you've got Christ, you've got everything.

The glory, you can't have more than the perfect God living in you, and expressing himself by you, you being amazed by what other people can find him as you found him. You can't have more than that. It's the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you.

And he went on to say, he went on, in that scripture, warning every man, teaching every man, that he may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. So, this is completion. Perfection is completion. I'm here to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Now, I saw that years ago. At that time, you see, it wasn't real to me, that's why I had to find that. I knew Christ for me. I knew Christ as my Lord, but to say he lived permanently in me, in the real way, what lives in you is really what you are, like your profession lives in you, which is what you really are.

Now, if he lives in me, then what really am I? I'm just a means by which this person is operating. I didn't know that. I didn't know there was Christ in you in that sense. I went to Africa, and I was taking Jesus Christ to the Africans, as I told you.

Now, I knew about taking Jesus Christ to the Africans, but then I found a scripture, another scripture, which started me on this pursuit, as you might say. But, of course, when you pursue the things of God, you find them.

It isn't pursuing and not finding, it's pursuing and finding. It really finds you, of course. What I found in the scripture in Galatians 4 .19, where Paul spoke about converts, I persecuted for my travail in birth again until I travelled in birth until Christ be formed in you.

Oh, I said, that's different. It's as if he lived kind of, was talking kind of embryo language, birth language, travel in birth. It's as if an embryo Christ became a fully formed Christ in you. Oh, I said, that's different.

If Christ is a fully formed Christ in a person's life, what's left for that person except a means of expressing Christ? I don't know that, I said. I said, I'm not even bringing that to Africans. I'm bringing Christ to the Africans, hoping they may get a thing called eternal life.

But this is making a new kind of person. See, I found the whole purpose of God isn't to give us a thing called eternal life, it's to be, that we should be expressing eternal life which is Himself, and He's been re-expressing His eternal course in life by us.

I didn't understand that at that time, formed in me. Especially since my mother didn't understand that. I noticed it too, we had a leader at that time, a man of fire in our mission, a great soldier of Jesus called C .C. Studd.

He had his free way of saying things. We were very few in those days, only eight or ten of us, and we had this huge Detroit forest, about a thousand miles of it, and then there were villages all around the forest.

We'd go out in the villages and meet them. Then we'd come together, of course, and have fellowship and play together. And when we were together, he had a way of saying things sometimes. One thing he would say was this, he says, Lord, I'm out here to see Jesus Christ running about inside black bodies.

That's one way of putting it. See, not Jesus Christ coming, running about in, that's the same thing. If Jesus Christ's running about in you, that's all there is. Your black body, your white body, showing Him running about in you, that's all.

I said, my dear, now I had to get some things through the scripture into me, in focus, to get this in focus. The first consequence was, like me, I didn't feel I had all I wanted to. Now, I'm talking to you like that.

If you feel you've got all you want, I'd say, all right, God bless you, you'd better go to sleep. You've had a heavy year this afternoon. If you don't feel you've got all you want to, if you feel you're forgiven, accepted, you've got all you want, the power of peace, the peace of satisfaction, so that all the bells ring, and you're unspeakable, you can't say, no, then I can talk to you, because I was like that.

So then I was in Africa, but I felt I needed to be made better. I felt I needed a much greater quality of love to identify myself with these simple Africans in their villages. I felt I needed a power that something could happen when I took Jesus to them.

It wasn't like bouncing a ball against a wall and bouncing back at you. I felt I needed faith that something could happen. They seemed so dark, because we're all dark, we know each other, but they seemed so dark.

And then tensions with fellow missionaries, and judgmentalism, and negativism, and temptation of the flesh, I was a common human. So I said I'm not the adequate person I ought to be. I'm not the adequate representative of Jesus Christ I ought to be to the people.

I'm partial. I'm not quite satisfied. I have tensions, and fears, and difficulties, and I'm not handling. So I thought I needed more, not that the Africans needed more, I needed more. So I set out on a search.

I'm an inward person. I didn't go out on a search. I mean, all we missionaries go out in the early morning time with God. We lived in bamboo mud huts like the Africans. In the early morning we have our time with God alone, where we read the Bible, and pray, and commit.

That's why I talk about time of search. Now in those times I'd say God, God give me more, make me more loving, make me more powerful, make me more victorious, more released, make me a better kind of person.

Now I didn't know I was under big illusion. I didn't know I was under semi-illusion then. I thought I could be improved. I find the human self can never be improved. Oh, I didn't know that one. I'll tell you why I did that.

I didn't know that then. I thought he must improve me. I must have more, I must have more victory, I must have all this stuff. So in my quiet time, of course I'd be taking it to him, and then one day he startled me with a very simple word.

As I say, the Bible comes out from the Bible, the Spirit makes it real to you, comes alive to you. He took a very simple word from Scripture and made it alive to me. The word was, God is love. Well, we all know that, don't we?

Three words, God is love. But it's in the book where the Spirit takes it and makes it real. The way it made it is, oh, if God is love, then love's a person. It doesn't say God has love. I thought love was a power that God had and put it in me and here I'd be loving.

Suddenly I said, God is love. And I said, love, universal love, universal, everything, atoms love each other, insects love each other, life's full of desire, love, desire, whatever form it takes, maybe self or whatever form, love.

He is love. So I said, love's a person. I said, he's a universal person. So I had to get a new concept of God, not just a person up there, he's both individual and universal, that's both there, but love's everywhere.

But it's a person, a person, a person. It's as if God said to me, love isn't a thing I give you because love isn't a thing. I am that love. Wasn't my name always I am, back in Moses' days? I am, I am, not I have.

Well, I said, sitting in my hut as it were, I found a sofa shop, you've got the lot and left none for me. You're the lot and poor me, what about poor me, I need some love too. You know the way you talk, just between yourselves, as it were, to God, I need power.

And I found out, a scripture came to me, in 1 Corinthians 1, now Christ is the power, not has it. Christ is the power. Power's a person. Well, power's very universal. Atomics is power, power's universal.

Christ is the power. So power's a person. So I began to get a new fact that God's a universal person. Now it's very difficult to see, first of all, because we're so used to seeing, because we got separated through the fall, that God's up there, well He is up there.

It says He's above all and through all and in all, that's what the phrase is used of God. He's above all and through all and in all. So I've got to find the God who's Spirit, who's not just a person sitting and thrown up there or there.

Somehow God's got to separate, He's universal, He is, He is, and you find Him anywhere, everywhere, He's there, He's there, He's the love, He's the power. But you see, the problem effectively goes, I thought I had the power, I must have the power, I must have the faith, I must have the victory, I must have it, and it seems that He stole the lot and left none for me.

That was my, this gap. Of course He was teaching me something about that. So there I was, I learned this, He's love, He's power, God is my peace, He doesn't have peace, God's my peace, God is above all, it says, God is my joy, God's my joy, it's not a thing, God's the joy, God's the peace, and then I finally find the scripture which fits the whole lot together.

The first scripture, in the beginning God, that's all there is then, in the beginning God, that's Genesis 1, and way at the end, when the end comes, and it says, the last time He's been destroyed is death, this is in 1 Corinthians 15, the thing finishes.

What does it say? It says, Jesus Christ the Son, the Son should render up the kingdom of the Father, that God may be all in all. Well, what more, if He's all He is in some, if He's all in all, He is all in all in forms.

So actually that's true now you see. Everything is really a form of Him, maybe a created outer form, or maybe a person who can express Him, all in all, isn't that a statement? Not some in all, all in all that is.

And when you have eyes, the spiritual eyes, you see, the world can't see, because of course the world's got to be all messed up, but we can see. So I got statements like that. Now I had to move on. By the way, I'm told I have an hour, you better signal through the darkness at me, and let me know, I can't tell you when the hour comes.

Pardon? I'm half-deaf, I didn't get that. You can come and signal to me when the hour stops, wherever you are, I can't see you. Thank you. Now, now I want to move on. From Him, that self to this self, I'm a self, I'm a self, you're a self, I must be a satisfied self, I must be a living self, it isn't a good evening self, what about me as a self?

So I begun to get the concept of Himself as a total self. Yeah, but what about me? What's that relation between Him and me? So, He now turns my attention to me, and this is where I had to learn a new thing.

At that time, a little scripture came to me, another scripture, Colossians 3 verse 11. It says, the scripture says to the believer, now Christ is all, not her, is all, and in all. Christ is all, and in all.

Well, I begun to get little glimpses, Christ is all, the power of love. I suddenly said, in all. Oh, I see. It doesn't mean I, normal God, become something. It means I contain Him in all. If He's in me, then all is in me.

It hasn't become me. It means all is He in me, and I'm a me containing He, containing Him. Oh, I said, that's different. That isn't I becoming a better kind of, this self becoming something. It's self containing somebody who is the whole thing.

But of course, you only live by what you know inside you. It must be an inner reality to me, that the real person living here is not I, but Christ, and I'm just a means in which He operates. You have to know a thing inside you.

That's why I talk to you as you're born again. If you're born again, you know Jesus. That's why I've not anything to say to you really this evening, if you're not born again. What I say will be nonsense to you.

If you have stepped in by faith, received Him by faith, and faith brings substance, and He's come back and you have consciousness somehow, Jesus is your Savior, and that love of God is in your heart, then I can talk to you.

Because then you can get a little glimpse of what I mean by He. He can give me all in me. Christ is all in all. Now, what I had to proceed from that, I had to have a new understanding of the human self, and that's our trouble.

Your trouble isn't Christ, it's you. If you're born again, He isn't the trouble, but you're the trouble. It isn't how He fits with you, it's how you fit with Him that's the trouble, or don't fit, that's the trouble.

So self's the problem. His self isn't the problem, because we have Him, at least by faith we see what He is. I'm a problem because I'm so changeable, and variable, and seem to feel so much about which is a failure, and defeat, and so on.

I'm the problem. So this is, I had to be solved myself. Don't you remember He began to say to me, find out who you are. All you are is a container. At that time, Christ is all in all, and then the first illustration He gave me at that time from the Bible, was where three times over the New Testament, we're called vessels.

Well, vessels are that old-fashioned word for a pot or a cup. He says, all you are is the cup, you're not what it contains. You say to anybody, a cup of coffee, or if you're a good British, you like tea, a cup of tea.

But the point is, it isn't the cup is the means of containing the tea, the important thing isn't the cup. It isn't the carriage of the cup, it's the carriage of the liquid. What liquid does it make available to you?