Charismatics In The Church

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio.

It is Tuesday. Hence, Pastor Steve is in the house.

Dispensing advice and wisdom, and all well worth the price of admission. All for free, right?

Free for the listener, but it costs us. Is that what you told people? Free? Yeah. WVNE. It costs to be on. Does it? Right. Big bucks? Pretty big. Okay. I�m kind of glad, Steve, the show is airing around March and there�s, I haven�t heard any begging from people for like three months.

It�s the end of the year. We need $2 .2 million to keep the doors open.

Well, you might want to pause the recording then because I�m about to beg for money. Okay, go ahead. What do you need? Do you need anything personally? No, no, I�m good.

We don�t get money sent to No Compromise Radio, but we do get coffee mugs and Pete�s coffee. Hello. Yes, and we just have one little rule, and that rule is we do not accept anything sent from your house, so it must be sent from the manufacturer.

So it has to be sent from Pete�s Coffee because otherwise, what if they lace the beans with some Arminian potion?

What are you, like some kind of, I mean, those sound like jailhouse rules. You know what, Steve?

Honestly, I was going to then talk about when we have to send books to the jail. We have to send it to the jail first, has to be paperback, has to be sent from Amazon, can�t be sent from the church.

Yeah, you have to know all the rules before you send them, otherwise they get sent back.

Honestly, the first time I slash we sent books to somebody in jail and we just picked a panoply of good books, Knowing Scripture by Sproul and the Gospel According to Jesus by MacArthur and a variety of books, they all got sent back.

Yep, you got to know the rules, got to know them.

What's the kind of weirdest thing that anybody's tried to sneak into a jail and you caught them in some kind of devious way?

Well, I was going to say that I caught them because I do know, I actually know of a time where a saw was passed in through visiting. So I mean, I just remember when I first started, I was at a minimum security thing where there was literally, there was no screen between the visitors and the inmates.

There was like a little wooden thing, but you could pass anything you wanted. It was just right over it. And you know, they'd throw stuff over and you'd have to go, you know, like whether it was money because we weren't cashless yet.

Sometimes drugs, you know, cigarettes, stuff like that.

How does the cashless society in a prison work? Do they all have a card, an ID card or something?

Well, they have their wristband with their booking number on it and then a barcode.

So if they want to buy deodorant, they just scan their wrist or something? Yeah.

And then if they didn't have any money, we would know that too, because we'd scan and then they'd get some supplies because they were what we would call indigent. You know, they. Okay. So you can be an indigent prisoner.

Yeah. Yeah. If you have no, if you have no money, you'd get some, you know, rudimentary things, a shaving cream, a razor, toothbrush, deodorant, that kind of thing.

Charismatic Theology and the Closed Canon

Steve, we're talking often behind the scenes about the charismatic movement and how majority of evangelicals these days seem to be charismatic to some way, shape or form. We're not talking about the word of faith, you know, nastiness, blasphemous and words have power and Jesus is born again in hell.

We're not talking about that, but just a regular charismatic. How would you define modern day charismatics in the evangelical church? What would make a charismatic and we're not talking about crazy TBN charismatics, we're talking about more mainstream mainline within evangelicalism?

Well, you know, by definition, they're just open to gifts of the Holy Spirit. And what that typically means, I mean, there are a lot of potential things, but it typically means that they're open to revelation outside of the word of God.

I mean, that's the most broad way I can say it. And so, you know, what do I mean? Feelings. Or, you know, in some kind of way, God is communicating to them or to us still so that, you know, there are things that may not necessarily contradict the Bible, but things that are outside of the Bible that means that, you know, God told me to sell this building.

God told me, you know, this, that, the other thing, and it doesn't even have to be that bold. It's just, you know, I have a sense that the Lord is leading in this way or, you know.

Pete Steve, when it comes to Sola Scriptura and the canon closed, don't you think really when people are charismatics and they receive direction or communion with God outside the word through feelings, impressions, some mysticism, don't you think that's a functional denial of Sola Scriptura?

In other words, how can charismatics affirm Sola Scriptura? Do you know how they jump through hoops to get there?

Pete. Well, I mean, what they're going to say is, sure, scripture is sufficient, but it's not all there is. You know, I mean, God's not in a box. He's not limited to communicating to us only through scripture.

I mean, scripture is the means by which we know doctrine, but it's not like God, you know, is limited by that.

Pete Steve, what would it mean if God was in a rhombus? Don't put God in a rhombus or a trapezoid. Pete. Don't put God in a triangle. Pete. In a cone. In a... Pete Isosceles triangle. Steve, with charismatics, most of the people I meet today overseas in India or Africa or other places, most evangelicals have a flavor of charismatic theology to them, and they'll say something like, I can't find a verse in the Bible where it says the canons closed, therefore, I'm open but cautious.

What do you say to some of those folks?

Pete. Well, here's what I've been saying for years. If the door is open a smidge, be prepared to have it kicked all the way open because you are either settled that the canon is closed or it's not. And if it's not, then how do you limit that?

Are you the arbiter, the determiner of what is and is not acceptable? And, you know, you said it well when you said a lot of evangelicals are open to this. How many times do you hear, even from people who would not describe themselves as charismatic, well, you know, the Lord gave me a piece about this?

Well, if you have a piece, how do you know it's from the Lord? You know, I, you know, we've talked about it before, but Jonah had a piece, you know, and.

Pete. Well, that's a tricky one, Steve, because there is in Philippians 4 a piece that passes all understanding. So, what is that kind of piece? And for the rebuttal, I would say, you know, we're not talking about I have a piece about something, therefore that's a sign from God to make a decision.

God is granting this Spirit-empowered peace in spite of all kinds of circumstances. You still know who God is, and He knows you, and you know that for certain because of the Word of God and the cross of Christ.

And those two pieces are different.

Pete. Yeah, I think the greatest example of the piece that surpasses all understanding is, you know, the people who are martyred for the faith. You know, they're burned at the stake or whatever they have to go through.

And instead of, I mean, I'm sure they're in agony, but instead of just merely screaming in agony and cursing those who are, you know, putting them to death, they're calling them to repentance or, you know, urging their co-sufferers to suffer well or, you know, to act like a man as they're dying.

You know, that kind of thing, and that's mind-boggling. I mean, that's the kind of thing that we can't grasp.

Pete. It's not a sign on this is God speaking to you to make a certain decision or not. We always talk about if you're going to do church discipline or you're going to evangelize or confront a brother or sister in Christ, you usually don't have a piece about it.

You think it's the right thing to do, and you get the piece afterwards where you think, you know what, that was hard to do. Any coward can slander and gossip, but it takes a courageous person, as Laney said, to confront.

Steve, people regularly go to 1 Corinthians 14, and it says in verse 1,. And so, charismatics will say, it is your job to seek after gifts. And they mean sign gifts like tongues, interpretation of tongues, the gift of healing, where you're supposed to seek after this.

But I think what they forget is chapter 12 talks about how the Spirit of God grants a variety of different gifts by his own sovereign working. And that 1 Corinthians 14 verse 1 is written to the church.

And so, Paul is telling the church, it's a good thing to have spiritual gift. You should desire that spiritual gifts are used in the local church, especially hearing from God that is prophecy and this speaking of God's word before the canon is closed.

Steve, don't you get what gifts the Spirit gives you at salvation? And you don't get any other gifts ever again? How does that work?

14 Well, that's exactly how it works. And you know, we get a gift, it says, but it can be a composition of a multitude of gifts. But the idea that somehow we can seek what the Holy Spirit has not given to us, that puts us in the position of sovereignty, right?

We decide, we dictate to the Holy Spirit what spiritual gifts he's going to give to us, and that's not what scripture says.

14 Doesn't it reveal a lack of contentment, a desire for something more? I have less, I want more. And I think that's, that runs through the charismatic movement. Like it or not, there are those that have and those that don't.

And so, the ones that have, they could struggle with pride. The ones that don't, they're yearning for something, longing for something more. 1 Corinthians 12 verse 11, all these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, capital S, who apportions to each one individually, talking about spiritual gifts, as he wills.

Pete. As he wills, not as we will, you know.

Jared. And so, think about it. What if we all had the same gift? Wouldn't that be a funny looking body? I've seen lots of funny bodies before it, you know, back in the old days before it was so PC in the world, there were those like strange circus people, you know, bearded women and stuff like that.

And then you would kind of transfer to the weird mirrors and you stand in the mirror and you look either really skinny or really fat and your head looks big. And to me, that's a weird, gross misrepresentation of how God would put together a body with ears and with a mouth.

Pete. Well, let me put it in a different way. Let's use a sports analogy. A baseball team, you have 25 players on a baseball team. You said, you know what, forget pitching, we're just going to have 25 home run hitters.

That's all we're going to do. Well, I'll tell you what, that team would not do very well. Might score a lot of runs. Then again, might not. But boy, when the other team gets up, woohoo, it's going to be good times.

Or, you know, imagine you're putting together a professional basketball team and you go, you know what, I'm going to put 12 Kobe Bryants on the same team. That'd be really, really bad. 12, now 12 LeBrons might be okay, you know, because he's so versatile.

But if you've got 12 guys who want to shoot the ball, that's all they want to do. You're going to have a hard time.

Charismatic Churches, Leadership, and Pulpit Ministry

Pete Steve and Mike today on No Compromise Radio discussing charismatics in general, the conservative charismatics. Steve, tell us the difference between relating to charismatics at the local church, other congregants, other members, and then allowing charismatics to be in leadership positions in cessationist churches.

So let's first talk about, we have somebody, they come into the door and they say they're charismatic and how soon do you show them the door? Give them the no-co boot.

Well, as soon as they start flopping around on the floor.

Well, let's say they have their own private prayer language and they are open. Yeah, they're open to some spiritual gifts. So technically they're a charismatic, right? But how do we treat them?

Well, you know, my guess is they're probably going to come up to me or you or one of the elders and say at some point, you know what, I can see what this church is all about, how serious you guys are about the Bible.

I really like it, but I'm kind of, from a charismatic background, you know, I'm familiar with speaking in tongues and I believe this, that, and the other thing, you know, what should I do? And, you know, the right answer is, well, if you want to stay here, we're thrilled to have you.

You know, we encourage you to kind of keep coming, plug in, you know, just go to the Bible studies and stuff like that. But we're not going to put them in a position where they teach or have any kind of major responsibility until they get rid of their charismatic ways, you know, grow out of it, I guess.

Steve, we all come to the local church and we are all are in process and some are more mature than others. And so, when I meet charismatic friends or charismatic come to the church, you know, if they're of the Wayne Grudem type, or if they're of the D .A. Carson open type, if they're of the, who are some other charismatics these days?

Sam Storms? Pete I almost said Stam Sorms. Pete Stam Sorms! Pete. Yeah, how tired I am. There are some, who else would be a modern day charismatic?

Pete You mean that are respectable? Steve That are authors. Pete Like Grudem. Steve Yeah, Grudem. Pete You said Grudem and Piper and who else?

Steve C .J. Mahaney is a charismatic, yes. What's going on with these five-point Calvinist or charismatics? Is that a new movement these days? Has there ever been five-point Calvinist charismatics?

Pete. No, it's relatively new. Well, I think it's just like everything else, you know? I mean, any kind of relatively new fad in the church tries to link itself to the more established wing, you know, and so we have all these new hybrids.

So, eventually you have charismatic Calvinists, which I think John Calvin might have had a hard time with.

Pete. Well, that's interesting. I wonder how Calvin would have fit in at a Sovereign Grace Church or Acts 29 Church?

Steve I don't think he would have liked it a whole lot. You know, he might have been okay with the preaching and then just gone, wait, what?

Pete So, oh, just another one popped in my mind. Matt Chandler would be a charismatic. Steve Okay, good. Pete Right? Steve Yeah. Pete Who else? Pete Okay, well, that's enough. So, here's the question, Steve, and this is, we're all boiling it down to this question now.

Do you let charismatics preach from the pulpit? So, you're in charge of the pulpit. I don't really know if D .A. Carson's truly a charismatic. I'd have to reread his 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 book.

Steve. Somebody, where did, it was just yesterday or the day before, somebody gave me a group of three names, and I said, well, out of those three, the only person I could see that we would allow to preach was D .A. Carson.

So, was it me and you talking about it?

Steve. No, it wasn't me. And of course, I'm a hypocrite in some areas, of course, in my life. I don't like it and want to repent. And so, maybe my hypocrisy is coming out here. But I would let D .A. Carson preach.

Pete. Yeah, see, that's what I thought. Steve. Right? But okay, now, what about somebody like Piper? Would you let him preach from the pulpit? So, I'm out of town, you're sick, Piper's in town. Let me ask you this question.

Do you think attendance would go up?

Pete. It would go through the roof. Steve Oh, John Piper's in town! John Piper!

Pete. Let's make it easier. Would you let C .J. Mahaney preach? Steve. No. Pete. Okay. Would you let Matt Chandler preach? Steve. No. Pete. Well, that's interesting. You know, all the buttons and lights are now flashing here.

Steve. The switchboard lit up.

And you know what? Here's a shocker. I would not let John Piper preach.

Okay, so let's talk about that for a second. Certainly, his books, The Swans Are Not Silent, you know, you can glean a lot of information there. His book on Romans 9, The Justification of God, right?

So, talk to me. Pete. And he's a brilliant man, and I know he knows the Bible, and you know, the problem is I would have to hear from his own mouth. You know, something like, I will not do, you know, any of this God told me, you know, the Shepherds Conference several years ago, where he gets up in front of everyone, 3500 men, and he says, you know, I've been asked, you know, translation, John MacArthur asked me to do this.

I've been asked to do my Christian hedonism thing, but God told me to talk about racial reconciliation. So, in an effort to obey both, I'm going to mix both messages together, is essentially what he did.

And I can't really trust somebody like that to just preach the word.

Steve, if I was asked to go speak at a Charismatic Church, I would probably try to teach something that was going to be helpful to them. I'm certain, you know, John Piper would say, I want to go help and minister and build up the body, but I think he's following the theology that he has, and that is if God is telling him to do something outside of the word, you need to preach this instead of doing what MacArthur asked, then I feel the pressure.

Petey. And you know what? I think this is probably going to be our most controversial show of all time. Pete I'm making you be controversial. Pete. Unbeknownst to me, but, and people are going to say, you know, John Piper has helped me in so many ways, and I'm going, well, he's helped me in so many ways too.

But the problem is, I just be edgy the whole time. I mean, like when he went to Master's College, and he encouraged all the kids there to speak in tongues, even knowing John MacArthur doesn't teach that.

You know, he's asked in a Q &A, well, what do you think about speaking in tongues? Well, I think every Christian should do it. That's just not, that's not somebody I want to put in the pulpit and just kind of cross my fingers and, you know, I want a blindfold and my last request before I….

The Sufficiency of Scripture and the Holy Spirit's Work

Pete Steve, kind of flipping this back to what we talked about earlier, and you know, I think people can do this with respect and people get asked opinions, and so we respond. I'd like to know from a thinking charismatic, and of course, they're unthinking cessationists too, but I'd like to know from them why every charismatic should desire the gift of tongues, if in fact it is a sovereignly given gift of the Holy Spirit.

I've never really been able to reconcile those unless they were to say, you know, the canon is closed in the sense of no more revelation from God and Scripture, but this is a private prayer language thing that every Christian could have, maybe a Romans 8 or Jude praying in the Spirit.

Is that how they would do it?

I don't know, but it doesn't make any sense to me. You know, I like how, you know, Paul just kind of says if an unbeliever came in and saw this going on, he'd say that the unbeliever would conclude that you're nuts, and I'm going, yeah, I think in a lot of charismatic meetings these days, an unbeliever would come in and just go, these people are absolutely bonkers, and I don't think that's healthy.

Pete Steve, could you go into an assembly, I'm not saying the word church here on purpose, an assembly where there was no ministry of the Holy Spirit. Would that be a group of people that you would want to be around on a Sunday?

Pete No, it's not a church. Pete Okay, so when we have a local church and the focus is on Jesus Christ, and I allude to an implication of 1 Corinthians 12 verse 3 about Jesus is Lord, you can't say that unless, you know, the Holy Spirit is working.

Don't you think a Spirit-filled church should be first and foremostly known as a place where Jesus Christ is talked about with much adoration and with much praise? Wouldn't that be number one?

Pete. Well, absolutely. What does the Holy Spirit do? He doesn't point toward himself. He points toward Jesus, right?

Pete Now, I could go into a charismatic church that was expositionally based and visit and think things through wonderfully, feel wonderfully, if they were talking a lot about Jesus. I could do that on a Sunday.

Pete Absolutely. And could a non, could a charismatic come to BBC and do the same thing? Say, you know what? They talk about Jesus a lot. I don't really like the music. I wish they'd have open revelation mic night, but I like it here.

Pete And why can't everybody raise their hands? Pete Yeah, see? And you know what? Probably some people do raise their hands here. I just don't see because I sit in the front row.

Pete. You know, if it wouldn't be such a distraction, I'd raise my hands during the giving.

Pete I know. I saw my, I saw somebody raise their hand once during an announcement, but I thought maybe it was a question they were going to ask or something. Well, how long does this service last? Can you get on with it?

But at leadership level, I don't think we would have, you know, charismatics mixed because what are you going to do in a leadership level at a local church? I don't mean Gospel Coalition leadership, Ref 21 leadership, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, but at a local church level, I think they should all be charismatics or they should all be cessationists.

Pete I would agree with that. Pete. And I think if you disagree with me, you know you're a charismatic because eventually the charismatics will win because once you, to use your statement there, once you let the barn door open, you're open to these impressions and guidance.

Pete. It's going to go all the way in. I mean, there's no such thing as a slightly open, you know, I like when people say, I like to leave the door slightly ajar. Well, you leave it slightly ajar, you know, it's all coming in.

Pete. Well, you know, it's been like 25 below windchill the last couple nights in Massachusetts. And so when I leave the door slightly ajar, it's pretty cold in the house.

Pete Yeah, kind of like my office right now.

Pete. But in terms on, I know that's funny, one-to-one basis and family and friends and all that stuff. I always love MacArthur's answer because he said, I don't hate charismatics. I love them. I married one.

Pete. And it's true. He did marry one. You know, she's not, you know, and I like to say I married one too, but it's, she's no longer charismatic by the grace of God. Pete I married one too.

Pete Yeah. Pete Kim and I, we first, the church, first church we started going to was Jack Hafer's church on the way. Pete Really? Pete Yeah. Pete Church on the way to where? Pete I don't know. They didn't know either, but they were on the way.

Pete. Shouldn't it be church of the way? Wouldn't that be, you know, because the Christians were known as the way, right? So, wouldn't that make more sense? You know, church of the way.

Pete Yeah, but it was on Sherman Way. Pete That's the street. Pete On the way. Pete Yes. Church on the way. Pete Yes. Pete That's bad. Pete But you're right. You know, Christians, we're called Christians in a derogatory sense all three times in the New Testament, but they were known as positively the way.

That kind of sounds like a good church, the way.

Pete Yeah, but you'd probably want to do it. W-E-I-G-H, the way. We don't have to get weighed in at the door. Pete How many calories did you eat today?

Pete So, how would you wrap up our talk today about charismatics and cessationists? And I think as time goes on, there'll be more and more charismatics and fewer cessationists. Pete Probably.

I think there are a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ who are charismatics. That is open, you know, cautious, but open. Some of them, not so cautious. A lot of people save there. I think that the real issue, and you hit it early on, is sufficiency of scripture.

Is scripture enough? And if not, then you're going to be looking for one experience after another, after another, after another. And, you know, you just never want to close the door. And I think that's a dangerous place to be.

Pete Mike Abenroth with Steve Cooley. We encourage you to do some exposition and exegesis in 1 Corinthians 14, and contrary to what you think might be, the charismatic translation and interpretation will be on the opposite side.

But these are good.

These are collegial, aren't they? Steve. Yes, the Word of God is solid. It is the solid ground. And that's where we need to make our stand.

Announcer. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abenroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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