#102 Suffering and Worshiping God + Dr. Craig Keener & Dr. Medine Moussounga Keener

Suffering, Worship, and the Question of God’s Presence

What happens when the New Testament scholar, and a war refugee, and biblical PhD compare notes on suffering? Today, I have the two greatest guests to speak on this topic. I have Dr. Craig Keener and Dr. Medin Keener.

When does it feel like everything's taken from you? How do you not feel abandoned by God?

The question that I ask, where are you, God? I don't see anything. I didn't have enough faith for tomorrow. I had faith for today. The only thing I could say was just Jesus.

Sometimes faith is just, it doesn't feel like faith. It's not how big is our faith, it's how big is the one that is our faith.

Wow. What do you have, maybe as like a word of encouragement for someone who's in the middle of that? Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms, with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding God easier.

These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion. Now, I'm sharing these recorded conversations with you. On this podcast, we talk about the facts, the history, and the translations to make the Bible make sense so we can get to know God, our creator, better.

Hi, it's Cass. I wanted to first start off by saying thank you for listening. I created this because I could not find it anywhere else on the internet, and it takes a very small team and a large upfront investment to make it all possible.

I really hope that you find it valuable. I would never expect anything from my listeners, and I'm always gonna do my best to first outsource support from brands. However, if you do find value in this episode, I invite you to contribute an amount equal to the value that you have received, either through a one-time or a monthly donation linked in the show notes below.

I understand that not everyone, though, can donate monetarily, so I ask that if you love Biblically Speaking and you cannot donate, please show your support by subscribing to this channel wherever you're listening so that it tells the hosting platform to show Biblically Speaking to more curious and confused Christians.

In exchange for the support, I personally promise to you to always create the highest quality production possible. Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking.

I'm your host, Cassian Bellino. Question for you, what happens when the New Testament scholar and a war refugee and biblical PhD compare notes on suffering? And not only that, they discover that the deepest truths about God and how they know his character are not through miracles, although they experience many, but it's through enduring pain with faith.

Today, I have the two greatest guests to speak on this topic. I have Dr. Craig Keener and Dr. Medin Keener as well. And just to kind of show you what we're gonna be talking about today, we're gonna be discussing their book, Impossible Love, that shows the love story between both of them of just war, displacement, betrayal, racial conciliation, fulfilled prophecies, miracles, and hope throughout suffering that they endure.

And it asks the profound question, why do some people emerge from suffering with bitterness while some emerge with deeper faith, forgiveness, and hope like you two? Welcome to the show. Just to give a little bit about your background and how you guys are overqualified to speak on this subject, Dr. Craig Keener, I'll start with you.

It's rare that I get two guests at the same time, but you are one of the world's leading New Testament scholars. You hold a PhD from Duke University. You serve as an FM and Ada Thompson Professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary.

You're known for your work on the historical context of scripture, biblical miracles, New Testament backgrounds, and your award-winning IVP Bible background commentary. That's a mouthful. But your wife has also joined Dr. Medin Masunga Keener.

Thank you so much for joining. You also have a PhD from the University of Paris VII. You've been born and raised in the Republic of Congo. You've survived the Congolese Civil War. You lived as a refugee for 18 months.

And both of you can speak deeply to what it means to overcome. And just finishing your book, Impossible Love, like I said before, I feel like I know you guys. It must be a parasocial relationship here where I'm like, I know you guys deeply.

I know your love story deeply. And I'm so, so grateful to have you on to talk about your love story, to share it with the world. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's a privilege to be with you.

Yeah. How often do you guys get to talk about your love story? We talk to each other about it a lot. I finished this book in the last two weeks. And I actually finished it out when I was waiting for a friend at a restaurant.

And it was just these last couple pages. I just started bawling my eyes out because it's such a beautiful story of so much that you guys endured to get to one another. And we'll kind of start from the beginning.

We'll get to the middle. We'll kind of get to the end. But it felt like just a patient love that does not keep score, a patient love that loves one another and that endures. And it felt like that kind of love, the embodiment of a love that the Bible talks about is your guys' story.

And you guys found each other and then worked for each other and prayed for each other and showed what it looked like to endure pain faithfully while also loving one another. And I'm a single woman. I'm in my 20s.

And it's one of those things where I want to know how to do that, but I get so caught up in the word. I get so disheartened by things. And yet you guys recorded all of this here. So thank you. When you think about this book, what kind of emotions come up for you guys?

I guess gratitude for me, but also I feel like coming from Congo, I feel like a little bit naked. My life is out there. Oh, wow. I've had people come to me and say, hi, how is Emmanuel? And how do you know my brother?

Oh, I read your book. So anyway, yeah, I'm grateful.

Yeah, I almost felt like that when I answered. I was like, so how's David? What is David? Tell me about your son. It's like, I've never met David. How can I ask?

Craig, what kind of emotions come up for you? Yeah, gratitude. I mean, just seeing the faithfulness of God, his kindness to us when it looked like life might be over. And well, we'd still be grateful to God for the life that he gave us to that point, but that God had a whole new life waiting for us.

He's gracious.

Yeah, and we will get into those moments that kind of felt like a dead end. You know, times where I would have been like, and you guys endure them with, okay, this is it. And it's just insane, your heart posture through them.

And it's so evident how much you trust God in this book. I mean, just how much you trust God is so evident. This is just like, yeah. But for those that have not read the book yet, I know that everything started within a discussion, and then speaking in tongues kind of became a point of contention for you, Craig, and almost like a drifter between both of you.

But Medin liked the challenge. She likes talking about it. But for those that don't know the book yet, do you mind just kind of overviewing.

How you guys first met? And when do you guys kind of realize there might be something more between you? We first met when I was doing my PhD in New Testament. At Duke University. And Medin was an exchange student for eight months at Duke University.

She was doing her PhD in France, University of Paris 7. And so we met through University Christian Fellowship. And she was attractive, what can I say? But we got into a discussion, and I actually, the only person I knew was a point of contact from Congo.

And I knew it was from the wrong Congo. But anyway, I said, have you ever heard of Jacques Renaud? And there's like, I think at that time there were like 60 million people in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

And she's from the smaller Congo, which isn't where I thought he had done ministry. But she said, yeah, he's friends with my dad. So that was a nice point of contact. But then I was leading a Bible study that night, and it happened to be on speaking in tongues, which was really something precious to me, but I thought she was against it, which I guess she was just against insisting on it.

And so anyway, it was like, ah, that's not gonna work. So, but then what can I do? I mean, she's lovely. She's intelligent. She loves the Lord. I mean, I'd witness to people on campus. They'd say, oh yeah, Medin Musunga told me the same thing.

So anyway, that's from my side.

Well, on my side, it's not that I was against it because I had my siblings, some of my siblings, they speak in tongues, but I had an experience in Congo where it was part of a youth group and we went for a retreat and everyone was speaking in tongues and I was not.

And it felt like I was like a second class Christian. And so I was frustrated. I came home and I started to talk to my dad about what happened. And he asked me a question. He said, do you think I'm a good believer?

I'm a good Christian follower? I said, oh my word, what are you talking about? You're the best. I mean, you are the one who give us the example and so on. He said, do I speak in tongues? I was like, oh.

So, but I guess I was a little bit very zealous in saying not everyone speaks in tongues and Craig being so kind and humble and so on, took it like, oh my word, she's against me. Anyway, that was the introduction.

And I just have to applaud you, Medine, because I think it's so rare in this modern culture that like the man pursues to the end. And if he doesn't pursue, it's almost rare that a woman is like, I actually, I have feelings and I'll name them.

And then you were so bold and courageous in telling him your feelings and saying, I feel this way. And you even talk about like the fear of, well, I've already admitted it once, I'm not gonna admit it again, but yet so much support from your community kind of allowed you to feel safe doing that and comfortable doing that.

And it was within God's timing that it was reciprocated by Craig. And you do such a good job in the book where you're like, and then Craig, it was seven years I had to wait between the time of like realizing she was somebody that I cared about to being like when we could actually reunite because so much happened.

And Medine, I've thought so much about what you said about, God never blessed your marriage with Manasseh. Manasseh, sorry. And kind of like that road that it took you down to experience it. And it makes me literally pause before I make decisions that are not even like romantically related.

I'm like, did God bless this? Because like, what is gonna happen to me if I move forward? But you mentioned prophesying and prophesying. And the book is so rich with dreams and prophecies and something that I don't think a lot of people experience quite often.

Do you feel like that was one of the major things that played a role in bringing you two together?

Prophecy, Dreams, and Christian Discernment

Medine, I'll let you go first. Okay, for me, those were like unexpected prophecies that I hang on to. For example, during war, my father went for prayer because he was sick. And the lady, she prayed for him, of course, but she said, I have a word.

And the word was, well, your daughter Medine will marry a white person with a big ministry. And he was like, wait, I came for me and you talk. But for me as Medine, I took it as like a nugget to treasure because I didn't know what my life will be like.

And I was like, wow, I will treasure this, I will trust, I will remind the Lord about this. So yes, in that sense, prophecies really helped me. And dreams, yes, people had dreams. Sometimes they have dreams.

Sometimes they're just indigestion. But sometimes I'm like, there's something about this dream that I need to pray about and bring to the Lord and maybe pay attention to. So, but Craig, I don't know about you.

Yeah, I mean, there were people prophesying to me. I already knew my wife and I'm like, no, that can't be true. I would have married her already if I knew who she was. But yeah, there were three different people who prophesied independently, people who didn't know each other to Medine in Congo, including that one during the war in the forest, that she was gonna marry a white man with a big ministry.

And I didn't have a big ministry back then, although I was white.

I've had a prophetic word spoken to me and I agree with you, Medine. It is like a nugget of like a God wink, God sees you and he's looking out for you. And I think it really is a testament to like the power of having a Christian community around you.

The fact that you guys were not just praying people, but you had praying people around you. And so Craig, when you were going to your friend, Kristen, I believe that you would speak fondly to Medine about and how she would kind of walk you through these emotions of like, well, should I, or shouldn't I, or what should I do?

Or is she safe? When she was in the middle of that civil war. I mean, how much power and support do you feel from the Lord when you've got people that can speak to things that you haven't mentioned yet?

Or Medine, how many people were telling you things that you're like, how would you know about that? And yeah, yeah.

And I think another thing about the prophecy, at least in my case, was that the prophecy was a preparation for my family, especially for my mother. The idea of losing a child, going into a world she doesn't know, not having any control over what was going to happen to me.

So I think that prophecy, that's how I see it, was like a preparation when the time came for her to let go and know, okay, God is in this. I can let go. It was hard for her to let go, yeah.

So you feel that the prophetic words that you received were really assurances for your mother?

Especially the prophetic words that my parents received about me, like during war at that time. I believe, personally, I believe that the Lord was also preparing them, saying, hey, it's okay. Your child might not be with you and it will be all right.

I wonder how they pondered that, but yeah.

Refugee Suffering, Daily Faith, and the Reality of God’s Care

Yeah. 18 months of being a refugee is not easy for anybody, but to have God amidst it. I mean, the things that you described, just having malaria and sleeping on mats and having mosquitoes, and then God providing, when you went out to get food, people said, I see you walking through water with snakes in it and you are not getting bitten.

And then you had people die because they would run into the jungle and die from being bitten by snakes. I mean, I've had a lot of travels in my life, and you'd like to think you're just lucky because you came out unscathed in a modern world, but God really does protect his people.

Craig, did you have anything you wanted to say about that? I was gonna move on into suffering, if you don't mind.

Well, you had mentioned about Kristen, and so just when I was thinking, well, I better, Madene shared with me that she shared with me her interest, and I shared the same interest, but I figured it's probably not God's will.

And just, I didn't want to get her hopes up, so I should write her back now while I'm praying about it and say, don't get your hopes up. And Kristen said, no, I feel like this was different. And I feel like you shouldn't do that because that will discourage her too much, which I found out later was true.

She would have given up on me and given up on contact with me. But I, yeah, so I, yeah, I actually fell out of my chair. I went back through all the things that I felt like God had spoken to me about my future wife, and then the things that Madene had written to me, because I still had her letters.

It's like, whoa, she actually fits. How come I didn't see this before? I fell out of my chair.

But you make a note. I mean, when that moment is described in the book of like, had you realized in the moment of receiving that letter, what seven years prior, the timing wouldn't have made sense. No, it wouldn't have.

How did you justify that of like, had I realized this seven years ago, we may not have worked out? Like, what were the things that needed to have happened in that seven year period that made this God's timing make sense?

I'm not sure she could have understood my own, well, actually, seven years, yeah. I'm not sure that she would have understood my experience of having been abandoned, myself. My first wife ran off with her best friend's husband, to whom I had almost made my, when I was a pastor, I'd almost made him my assistant.

And then being rejected by my denomination at that time, because I was divorced, even though I didn't have a choice in it. I had tried to fight it. And so, afterwards, she really understood that. She could put up with me, I guess, maybe is the way to, with my, whatever.

But also, I understood better her situation. I had been in Africa more by that point, myself. And also, I had a dream toward the end, when it was like, oh, how could I not have seen this? And then I had a dream where I was actually back in time at the apartment where I had lived seven years before.

And I tried to put my key in the door to open it, and it was the wrong key. It was the key for the current time. And then the Lord spoke through that to me and said, it wasn't time yet.

Why Suffering Feels Abnormal to Modern Christians

Wow. It's so insane how imagery through the Lord can make no sense. You know, like, you can never conjure up that image, but then God gives it to you, and you're like, there's no error in that. It makes complete sense.

I've had one of those before where you're like, that's it? Yep, it makes too much sense to not be from God. Craig, I would love to learn a little bit more about suffering from your perspective, because traditionally, and, you know, spoiler alert, we're gonna have another episode on miracles, but most of your work focuses on miracles.

And, you know, you sent me, the next book I read is gonna be your book on miracles. Why do you feel like suffering has become such a central focus of your work in recent years? Other than because of the obvious in your love story, but is there other things that have played a part?

Yeah, most of my work is actually commentaries on the New Testament. But I had just written a commentary on 1 Peter, which is full of suffering. And then I was in the process of writing a big commentary on Mark, which is full of suffering.

So it's like, you know, it was good timing to write this book in that sense. And also I felt like, you know, I'd written the two books on miracles, initially because the Bible's full of miracles, and people were like, well, skeptics were like, these things can't happen, you never have eyewitnesses.

I'm like, are you kidding? We've got plenty of eyewitnesses. So that's what those books, how they originally started. But then I'm like, well, I wrote the books on miracles. Here's the time for the other side of it, because miracles don't always happen, for one thing, in this life.

And for the other thing, usually by the time you get to a miracle, it's because you've been through suffering. But in any case, I felt like the church in the U .S., I mean, this isn't speaking to everybody, there's plenty of suffering here, but the church in the U .S. as a whole isn't ready for the kind of suffering that a lot of churches elsewhere in the world face regularly.

And that needed to be addressed. And I just felt like I need to write this book on suffering. And actually, that was part of the reason I think we wrote Impossible Love, too, was just to communicate the reality of what people go through in other parts of the world.

It definitely accomplishes that. And you even say, who are the eyewitnesses? People want facts, they want the data that proves that it truly was out of this world. And you kind of say it, why does suffering feel abnormal to modern Christians?

It feels very normal throughout the Bible. It feels like all the main characters undergo it, but do you think that's just a product of modernity? Or do you think that's central to America itself?

Yeah, it's central to, yeah, maybe America and the last generation or two. I mean, all around the world, I mean, suffering is normal in northern Nigeria, normal in Mozambique and Burkina Faso, and Cote d 'Ivoire went through a war some years ago, Myanmar, India, China.

I mean, it's normal in so many parts of the world.

It is. But as Christians, you know, we have to hold true to what the Word says. And I feel like there are two different scriptures that show suffering, but also almost like the life that you get when you follow God.

And, you know, there's Acts 14, 20, 22, strengthening the disciples, encouraging them to remain true to faith. It says we must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God. And kind of like what you just said, you know, suffering is, maybe this isn't your words directly, but it unlocks a miracle.

But then you look at so many other parts of the Bible, including Romans 8, where it's saying, you know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. How do you, like someone who has experienced suffering, but also the fullness of God, how do you hold both?

Yeah.

Romans 8 has a big emphasis on suffering in light of future glory. We had corresponded about this. This was in a recent email that you sent, but Romans 8, 18, I mean, the present sufferings aren't worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed.

First Thessalonians, actually, just thinking of this now, we grieve, but not as those who have no hope. And that's a big thing. Romans 5, we endure the tribulations ultimately in light of hope. We boast in hope.

And Romans 8, persecution, obviously. So 2 Timothy 3 .12, all those who will to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But it's not just persecution. I mean, it lists, later on in Romans 8, famine, poverty, all sorts of things it lists.

But it says in all these things, we are more than conquerors because nothing can separate us from God's love in Christ. So we have this hope of glory and these, it's in Romans 8, it's also said in Corinthians 4 that even the very sufferings themselves help prepare us for that greater weight of glory that's to come.

So, and also the idea in Romans 8 of birth pangs. So 8 .22, creation is groaning with birth pangs for a new world to be born. And we ourselves, verse 23, are groaning. And then verse 26, the spirit himself within us is groaning.

So the sufferings, they're not without a purpose. I mean, overall, because ultimately, they're the birth pangs of a new creation when there's gonna be no more suffering.

Daily Trust in God During Civil War and Refugee Life

That's incredibly insightful. I mean, you guys are just built different. Just Medin, everything that you guys went, everything that we went through, I mean, not just a civil war, but abuse within a marriage, fear and famine and disease and malaria and having a child that you had to travel as a refugee with.

I mean, what did you hold tight to? I mean, receiving word from God and having faith. I don't think I could survive that, I'm gonna be honest. I just, I don't think I could make it through half the things you made through, Medin.

I mean, it's insane what you endured just in civil war, let alone the corruption in the government that prolonged you guys being together once you had decided. What were you carrying through that?

I don't think I would have, I mean, if somebody had asked me, okay, this is what's gonna happen to you. Can you go through it? I would have said no. I think it's a daily walk. Like, you know, in Africa, I'm always amazed when I go, I like going for a walk early in the morning around 5 .30, it's still dark and you see somebody having a light, you know, here in the face.

But in Africa, the light is by your feet because you see where you put your step. If there is a hole, there is a snake or something like that. I think that's the process. It was a daily trust. I didn't have enough faith for tomorrow, if I can express myself like that.

I had faith for today and there were times when I didn't even have faith. The only thing I could say was just Jesus. I could just say the name of Jesus, that was all. So I guess it's the Lord giving the strength to go one step at a time, one day at a time, you know, and continuing.

That's how I see it, yeah. Because if it was my faith, then I will take the glory, but it was God's grace. And so it's the glory, not me. I didn't have that strength to do that by myself.

That is so insightful that, you know, if you would have said, you know, I had faith and that's what got us through, you're right. That would have been a very self-idolatry form of interpreting the situation, you know, just the fact that you didn't have faith and yet God put you through is all on God, not you.

Man, it's like really bringing up some things for me. Maybe I have this like messed up view where I'm like, I don't have enough faith so it won't work out. It's like, it's not on me. That's, wow.

It's on God. Craig, do you have something to say? Yeah, when my first wife left me, you know, I'd been praying two hours a day before it happened and afterwards, like my dean said, all I could do was utter the name of Jesus over and over.

I just was so numb, you know, and I forgave the man she ran off with. I urged him in love, but finally, you know, the Bible says to pray for those who persecute you. I was praying that God would kill him and the Holy Spirit rebuked me in the midst of that.

I'm like, God, that's not fair. I mean, I never kissed another woman besides this woman and, you know, my ministry is now, it looks like it's over. The domination I was in at that time, it was over and I was like, and in the midst of my complaint, then I heard, I'd been so numb, I couldn't really feel God speak, but then I heard what I felt was God speaking.

Like my child, Elijah was a man of like passions as you, when he knelt down under the juniper tree and said, just let me die, I'm no better than my ancestors. David was like you when he said, that when he was ready to go in and kill Nabal and every male in his household.

Jeremiah was like you when he said, cursed be the day that I was born. You're a man of God, not because of what you're made out of. You're a man of God because I called you and my grace is sufficient for you.

And I felt like all I wanted was for God to send my wife back, my first wife back at that time, but that's not what he did. He took me through the suffering, but my protest was God, I'm not made out of the same stuff as these people in the Bible, not realizing that they didn't volunteer for Jesus' 40 day fast, but I mean, most of them didn't volunteer for the things that they went through.

I didn't volunteer certainly for what I went through. Medina didn't volunteer for what she went through. Sometimes faith is just, it doesn't feel like faith. It's just clinging to God for dear life, but God is faithful.

Yeah. Yeah, it's not how big is our faith, it's how big is the one in whom is our faith.

Forgiveness, Trust, and Healing After Betrayal

Is there anything, knowing what you know now, if you had to relive that, like something you'd do differently, starting with the divorce and then the separation and being far from Medina, looking back, if you could relive it, would you change anything?

I would, no, I guess I would just encourage myself, yes, keep going. I mean, at the time, it looked like my ministry was over. The things God had called me to do weren't gonna happen. That's what it looked like at the time.

So my determination was just, I'm gonna make, all I can do is make a dent for God, but I'll make as big of a dent for God as I can. And yeah, we just do what we can, but God is, we don't have to be God.

God already occupies that position. Thank God. So we just do our best, yes.

I have a question for both of you, and it sounds like, you know, you've reflected a lot about this with your divorce and Medina, you've reflected thoroughly about, enduring the civil war and abuse in the government and kind of meeting each other, but do you feel like going through that suffering revealed to you what you worshiped, especially since you thought, I'm losing everything I've built, I'm losing my congregation, I'm losing my marriage.

And now, maybe was that a moment where you're like, I was worshiping the power, the position, the identity that those things gave me?

For me, yes. I mean, I came back from France, I was a doctor. I mean, I was teaching at the university and so on. Although I had, you know, an abusive short marriage and had a baby, but I think somewhere inside, I was focused towards me.

That's why when people ask me, say, if you were given an opportunity to go through war, knowing what you know now, would you do it? And I will say, I think I will. Not because I'm misogynic or I like suffering, but because of what I learned, what I discovered, I would not have that without having gone through the suffering.

So yeah, I think God showed me that I was focused on me. I, my shoulders were a little bit up and the humbling, not exactly how I expected it, was good for me to see God really God and not me or other people.

Because people rely on prophets sometimes a lot instead of focusing on God. And for me, it was very important to focus on God when all the prophets were gone, there was not a lot of dreams and so on. It was only Jesus.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you kind of talk about a humbling experience. I'm like, you, how could you, how could we possibly expect to be such a well-accomplished woman in a community that you're such like a beacon for light, you're educating people on the word of God.

And then one day you're supposed to wake up and be humble. Like something has to happen, God has to, it's not just gonna like, wake up and be there. Craig, do you feel that way? Do you feel like that was really showing parts that you were worshiping?

It really broke me. I was protesting early on, like, God, I think I'm humble enough already, aren't I?

But God knew much better. I felt, you know, by no means have I walked your guys' walk, but I've gone through something similar where I lost everything. And I was like, well, God, like, I've got a Christian podcast, like, what are we doing?

And God had to take me somewhere because he was like, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. And, you know, had I not gone through it, you know, I wouldn't be able to worship that much better or that much more authentically.

So, you know, it's a microcosm of what you guys have experienced, but I can somewhat relate.

Medine's experience was far more dramatic suffering than my own. I was spoiled, I guess, but I did feel early on, actually, I felt this before I went through that, that here in the United States, that God was going to have to strip us of some of the things, or God was gonna strip us of the things that we value so we could learn to value what really matters.

You know, if everything else is taken from us, and I found this with so many accounts from Christians who've suffered around the world, if everything else is taken from us, we learn what really matters.

And that stood me in good stead doing certain tests. I mean, one professor, where I was doing my PhD, most of the professors were not like this, but one professor said, you're too religious, you might not be allowed to graduate.

I was like, you know, I've been beaten and had my life threatened for sharing my faith on the streets. I've been through plenty, I'm not gonna be intimidated, I did go ask one of my other professors, they're not gonna do that to me, are they?

But Jesus is worth everything, no matter what the cost. He's the pearl of great price, he's the treasure hidden in the field.

And we stand for him no matter what. Yeah, wow, the treasure hidden in the field, that's really sticking with me. There was a lot of, you know, kind of when everything's taken from you, you realize what you really need, which is God.

But when that moment happens, and you feel like everything's taken from you, how do you not feel abandoned by God? I mean, when you lose your home and your belongings, when you lose your sense of health, when you lose a sense of dependency on where you might sleep that night, or will you be able to food your family beyond the one meal a day?

Or will I lose my entire identity, my congregation, the career that I've built up, my wife? What do you have, maybe as like a word of encouragement for someone who's in the middle of that and they have not yet reached the point where they look back and say, I'm so grateful, I'm so glad, but they're in it.

Maybe what did you guys hold on to?

Holding on to God in the Dark

What'd you say? The question that I ask, where are you, God? Where are you? There were times, many times, where I felt abandoned. I didn't feel the Lord was there. But at least the one thing that was helpful was just to bring the questions to the Lord.