Perseverance of the Saints with Austin Hobbs - part 2

Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. My name is Mike Avendroth. Boy, that week has seemed to fly by. It seemed like we just were here 30 minutes ago doing a show. My name is Mike Avendroth. I'm with Austin Hobbs.

The Preservation and Perseverance of the Saints

Back-to-back shows on perseverance of the saints. Aren't you glad that God has kept you and that no one can snatch you out of God's hand? Think about all the enemies we have. Our own sin, Satan, the world system, other people, nations, media.

What if we had to get to heaven on our own? So today, part two, Perseverance of the Saints. Austin, welcome back. Thank you, Mike. Happy to be back again. Tell us a little bit about your strategy for teaching through the doctrines of grace.

We'll get to P in just a second, but shouldn't you just be teaching the young people, the high school students, you know, how to get along? It's good to be good. It's nice to be nice. Kind of practical things.

Come on, what does doctrine matter?

Right, right. Well, we want to follow how the Church has traditionally taught the people of God. And we see, especially in the Westminster Shortage Catechism, that it's structured in what we should believe and then what we should do.

Doctrine, Worship, and the Goal of Teaching

So hopefully what you should do follows from what you believe. And hopefully what we do cannot save us from our sins. We need to know that God is Father, that Jesus is the Son who has come to redeem us from our sins and the Holy Spirit applies that and sanctifies us and preserves us.

So doctrine is really important. So, of course, we want to avoid the idea that, you know, if we just have good doctrine, we're okay, but we want doctrine to lead to worship as a glory. You know, assassination, unlimited atonement, irresistible grace, that it incites the praise to his glory.

That's what Ephesians 1 tells us, to praise him for what he has done for us. So basically how we've outlined it this semester, of course, we shared with a previous member of our church, Daniel Evangelista, who's at the Founder's Seminary now, that we kind of co-taught that because I just showed up this semester.

And basically we just began by just introducing the two views—Calvinism, Arminianism—for each point, then defended what we would believe as a church, as traditional Reformed people would believe about a certain doctrine, like total depravity, unconditional election, unlimited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.

Then we defend that doctrine in the next. So we have a three-week cycle, essentially, for each point to walk through it.

Romans 8 and the Love of Christ in Suffering

So when I look at Romans chapter 8, one of these passages that are very important for us regarding this doctrine, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? First thing I notice is, that's not my love for Christ, that's Christ's love for me, for believers.

Will tribulation, distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword, will that separate us? And the answer is no. Then, this is interesting to me, Austin, verse 36 of Romans 8, just as it is written, and he's going to quote Psalm 44, "...for your sake we are being put to death all day long, we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through him who loved us.". Don't you think Paul is trying to say to the readers, there's going to be difficulty. There's going to be trials, persecution.

It's not going to be easy street to be a Christian, and so expect these trials, but these trials, no matter how severe they are, how grave they are, they can't stop God's love for us.

Amen, that's right, that's right. I mean, that's just, he's really laying down the practical implications of perseverance, of really the preservation of God, that no matter what suffering you go through, no matter what valley of tears you're going to walk through, Jesus will be with you always, even to the end of the age, so that leads to worship, leads to security and assurance, and it's glorious to know we're safe in the love of Christ.

I like this passage, especially as I've gotten older and I've seen people suffer, and I've suffered and we lose loved ones, and we just realize how awful sin is, Adam's sin, wages of sin is death, and so it's Paul in a way to love the Romans that he's writing to, really the Spirit of God helping them understand there are going to be difficulties, but don't say to yourself, like the world, how can God be good and allow cancer to happen?

How can God be good and allow this war to happen? How can God be good and look at Stephen, a stone to death, and look at Paul, according to tradition, he's killed for his faith. How can God love us? So he tells us ahead of time, you should expect this.

This is what happens to God's people. Sin is awful, persecution is real, but you cannot be separated from the one who loves you. Amen. Amen, Mike. So, what do you got next? What did you teach them? What was the next step?

How are you trying to unfold this doctrine to the young people?

Defending Perseverance and the Assurance of Salvation

Right, right. So, you know, this week we talked about just defending the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. So previous week we had Perseverance of Saints Defined. Now we have Perseverance of the Saints Defended.

So we just wanted to, you know, basically address some common misunderstandings of this doctrine and also get to what are some positive arguments they lay out for how they think you can lose your salvation, essentially.

The tie-in is interesting to me in the London Baptist Confession. You've got chapter 17, Perseverance of the Saints. Chapter 18, Assurance of Salvation. How are those tied together?

Our assurance of salvation is ultimately rooted in the Word of the Gospel. It's really rooted in God's grace to persevere us amidst of all of our sins, amidst of temptation, in the midst of trials, that ultimately we're being kept by God's power through faith.

And so the assurance of salvation should lead from what God has promised in His Word.

So to frame this a little bit, just a few verses. First Thessalonians 5, 23 and 24. May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then Paul adds, he who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Amen. He will do it.

He's not going to try, but he will. He will do it.

Paul said, last chapter he ever wrote, Scripture-wise, before he died, the Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Amen. How does this tie in, this doctrine, Perseverance of the Saints, not just to assurance, but also to praise, to thankfulness?

Doesn't this induce gratitude? Shouldn't it induce gratitude for every Christian? Amen.

That's right. Because we know that apart from God's power, we certainly would lose our salvation, right? We certainly would fall away. But since our salvation's in God's power, God's hands, by God's grace, that means no glory is owed to us, but it's ultimately owed to Him.

And the reason why we don't lose faith, the reason why we keep going in the Christian life, because God began a good work in us, and He will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ.

Now, the way it's phrased often is, you can't lose your salvation. Let's strike that and say, could God lose a Christian? That's probably a better way to think through it. Can God lose a Christian? Can—if you just start thinking about the nature of God, the triune God, and if you think of Ephesians chapter 1, you think, okay, in eternity past, God chose His bride.

And in time, Jesus died for that bride, paid for every one of that bride's sins. And then in time, the Spirit of God applies that work of Christ to them and seals them to the day of redemption. If you start thinking about God and His promises and His work, doesn't that help you, help the students, help our listeners rest in the perseverance of the saints?

Amen, that's right, Mike.

And that's exactly what the Reformed Confessions have taught. How do you have assurance? How do you practically persevere? It's ultimately by, you know, heeding God's Word, by trusting His promises, by—of course, we treble the threats, but we bring those threats to Jesus Christ.

He's taken all curse from us, and we are called to, you know, lean in Him by faith, rest in Him by faith.

Mere Profession and the Visible Church

So let me be the Arminian for a while. You know what, Austin, you say that saints persevere. I knew this man, Grandpa, and he, for many years, said he was a Christian, he went to church and had communion, was baptized, and then he walked away from the faith in the next 20 years, didn't practice Christianity at all.

You say that God has the saints persevere. He believed, and he didn't persevere. So what does that do to your doctrine?

Well, we have to understand that a mere profession of faith does not guarantee the possession of faith. So just because you say you're a Christian, just because you do all the Christian things like get baptized, join a visible church, say all the right things, it doesn't mean you actually are regenerate.

Ordinarily, it does mean those things, but again, it's part of you living in this present evil age where there are hypocrites, that in the parable of the sower, Jesus says that some seed you sow will initially grow up, but then be choked away by the rocks and the thorns of this world.

So that doesn't ruin the doctrine of perseverance, it just shows that they were not saved in the first place.

So true. And for us, all of us, you listeners, for Austin, for myself, we can't come up with doctrines based on experiences, right? Right. Some kind of anecdotal evidence. Well, what about this? Right?

It's the same thing with charismatic circles. There's this person I know that has the gift of healing in Sri Lanka, therefore your cessationism is wrong. Well, I can't argue with these things, but I can go back to Scripture and say, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that they might be firstborn among many brethren.

And those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified. So we have to force ourselves to be underneath Scripture's authority, not, well, what about this person?

Exactly, yeah. We have to hold to God's Word, then seek to understand it.

How do you think 1 John 2 fits in, they went out from us, but they were really not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out so that it would be shown that they are all not of us.

Probably talking about false teachers, but how does that apply?

Yeah, so it seems like John's talking about people who were a part of the visible church, but he's saying that these people are going out from us, from the visible church, because ultimately they are not of us, of the very essence of what it means to be a Christian of the church, of God's redeemed people, and they're showing us that they actually weren't redeemed in the first place.

They weren't actually part of God's people in the first place. They're showing that they're truly unregenerate. That's why they're going out from us. Because had they been regenerate, they would have persevered in faith.

Pastoral Care for Struggling Believers and Sin

Let's talk a little bit about a weak perseverance, a Christian who's sinning. Jesus died for the sins of Christians, too. How would you apply this pastorally, Austin, when there's a saint, they've been serving in the church for five years, ten years, there's a track record of sitting underneath the means of grace and serving one another, but then they're really struggling now with sin.

How would you use the doctrine of perseverance to help them through this sinful time period so that they could start walking in a manner worthy of their calling?

Right. I mean, I'd want to remind them of God's unchangeable decree of love, that He has loved them before the foundation of the world. So when God chose you, He's choosing a sinner to redeem. So there's nothing in you that caused God to love you.

He just loves you because He loves you. And that love will never be taken away from you. And that love was manifested at the cross of Christ, where He earned your eternal redemption. And now that if you're in Christ, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

And Mike, we talked on last episode about inaugurated eschatology, and here we have another instance of that. Because in the Old Testament, the prophets envisioned the final judgment happening at the very end of time, at the very end of history.

So the New Testament, they say, yes, it does happen at the end of history, but the end of history has been brought forward in the present. So now the final judgment, if you're in Christ, you have already been judged.

Jesus has taken your final judgment for you, so that now there is therefore now justification for those who are in Christ Jesus. So on the last day, there's not going to be a different verdict than what He has handed down in the present to those who believe.

So you're safe. Legally, you're declared righteous forever, you're as righteous now as you will be in eternity. And also the Spirit, He will not let you go. He will help you persevere, He will cause you to persevere to the end.

That you're raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, you're now dead to sin, you're dead to its dominion power over you, and you can't become alive to sin again. For you to become alive to sin, God will have to raise you to be alive to sin.

That's an unthinkable reality. But because of that, you can now put to death sin in your life. God is the one sanctifying you. You have the power to do it. You actually can't. So I encourage them, hey, go out, put to death sin in your life, but rest in the promises of Christ that nothing will snatch you out of His hand.

But devote yourselves to the ordinary means of grace, His Word, the sacrament of Lord's Supper and prayer.

Westminster Confession of Faith, quote, They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere there to the end and be eternally saved.

I would probably add to what you just said, Austin, which was a good pastoral description. I'd add, by the way, dear saint, I know you're struggling with sin now. You're not going to fall away. And by the way, the struggle's good, because unbelievers don't seem to struggle with sin very much.

They struggle with the consequences of sin, the fruit of sin, the downside of sin. But here, you're struggling for what reason? You know you want to honor God. You know that you haven't been honoring God, and that struggle is a good sign, and I want you to know that you will not finally nor totally fall away from the state of grace.

So how about today is a good day for repentance, and start walking by faith and not by sight. Amen. Amen. Try to give them some encouragement. What were some other objections that maybe the students had or came up with for not believing in the doctrine of perseverance of the saints?

Eternal Security, Holiness, and God’s Chastening

Right, right.

And we kind of covered this. There's this idea that, oh, if you believe that you're eternally secure, then you just sin all you want. Like, oh, God, he can't, you know, he can't condemn you, therefore you can just live a life of sin all that you want.

That's one argument that Roman Catholics would at level against the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. But as we mentioned, Mike, we have God's spirit living within us. The same spirit that raised Christ the dead now lives enough to give life to our mortal bodies, to cause us to believe, to repent, and to follow him.

So now we were raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. So that means the holiness that we will have in eternity, in a new creation, we have in part now. Right now, we have the very holiness of Christ that we will have in full in the new earth, new creation right now, that we participate right now in the holiness of Christ and that we can now live for him, we can believe, we can follow him.

And we are dead, fully and finally to the power of sin. We still haven't dwelling sin because we live in this present evil age. But the day of the new creation has dawned, even now, that we are now dead to sin and alive to God, so that we can put to death sin in our lives and live to righteousness.

Amen. Let's talk a little bit about what does Jesus mean when he says, if you believe me, you will have eternal life?

When does that eternal life start? In part, eternal life begins now, because eternal life is simply this new creation that has been won by our resurrected Savior, Jesus Christ. And that's very important to know because our sanctification, that's part of this, this eternal life that's being worked out right now.

Of course, we're not yet glorified. That's the full benefits of the new creation life that our bodies, our body and soul be raised with Christ on that last day. But that doesn't negate the fact that we are now raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

That right now, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. So of course we're still waiting for that glorification, but right now we are experiencing the benefits of eschatological life happening in the present through union with the resurrected Christ.

The London Baptist Confession, 1689, chapter 17, section 3, paragraph 3. Do people, Reformed Baptists, say section 3 or paragraph 3?

I've heard both. I like to say paragraph, but section sounds good too, so whatever floats your boat.

And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, have come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. Talk a little bit about how, when sinning, Christians could have temporal judgments brought upon themselves, i .e. be chastened.

Right, right. And ultimately, God chastens those whom He loves. So our Father, He does not want us to leave us in the wallow, the mire, the filthiness of sin, but He wants us to repent. And so He wants us to desire His presence.

And sometimes, like the confessional will say, He'll sometimes withdraw the light of His presence, but that does not mean that He's still not with us. He's not going to give us that perception of it so that we would repent, that we need You, God, we need to have communion with You, we don't want a life of sin, we want You.

And that's ultimately, that's a way, that's how God helps persevere, by drawing us back through chastening us. That's the means of perseverance, for sure.

I don't know how well this illustration works in terms of—I don't want it to stand on all fours, except I remember back in the days when my children were younger, and we would go on a hike through the woods here in New England.

Watch out for the ticks. And so we would walk, and I would say to the kids—we had a dog at the time, too—run up as far as you want, stay back as far as you want, as long as you can see me, that's fine.

So, you know, run up in front of the trail, have some fun, goof around, look at the animals, throw rocks in the pond, I don't care what you do, just stay within sight. And then, I'll use Luke as an illustration, because my girls, they always did the right thing.

And so Luke would get a little too far away, and then what Kim and I would do is we would hide behind a tree. Just let him keep going, keep—and then they'd turn around to look, where's Mom and Dad? And so then what would happen is they would run, Luke would run back to try to find where we were, and then we would jump out to scare him, and then he would stay closer, right?

And so, of course, the Lord doesn't move, He's omnipresent, the Spirit of God dwells within us, and so it's not that we—that God moves when we're sinning, but it's the light of His countenance. He seems far away, even though we're the ones who moved, and then in light of that, because of that, upon repentance, then we have that restored again, and we feel close.

Does that make sense? Yeah, that's right. That's right. All right. Just, you know, you're the theological brain, and I'm just trying to come up with a practical explanation. Right. Although, you're not from Mississippi, you're from Texas.

That's right, yeah. From Texas originally. Okay. And philosophy major, was that true? Yeah, that's right, yeah. I got my degree in philosophy at Texas A &M. See, I just got my degree in who knows what from University of Nebraska.

We're not that smart up in Nebraska. But Texas, are they known for being smart? I mean, I don't know. We're not known for being dumb, I don't think. We're known for football. I know that's for sure. Well, it's been a lot of money.

What was it like on Friday nights, high school football?

Oh, especially when you're growing up in a small town, it is the thing to do. It's the thing to—the place to be at. Definitely high stakes. People, I mean, people get Think you're the head coach for Dot Wooden Football Games, and small towns, they can sometimes cycle through head coaches.

Did I hear you were a quarterback?

Yeah, I played a little quarterback in high school. When you say a little, that means, did you start?

Oh, you know, I only played like a year, and so I ran more cross-country and track, but yeah.

Eternal Security, Suicide, and the Comfort of God's Power

Okay, yeah, all right. Mike Ebenroth with Austin Hobbs today, talking about perseverance of the saints, eternal security. Would you prefer not to use eternal security? And if you don't prefer it, why?

Well, I think there's just benefits in the word itself that, you know, we are eternally secure, and ultimately we're secure because God holds us. Sometimes I think in other contexts, in maybe more easy-believism, eternal security means that once saved, always saved, no matter how you live, even if you don't go to church anymore, if you don't believe anymore, and you're just living a life of sin and unrepentance and rebellion, that somehow, oh yeah, God will just save you in the end, but we need to know that God's secure.

You know, of course we are secure in Christ, but that means that He's going to cause us to persevere in repentance, that our whole life will be a life of repentance, that we will sometimes—you can fall into great sins.

However, all believers will repent and seek restoration and look to Christ by faith and receive that assurance of salvation and knowing the forgiveness of sins for our great sins.

Let's talk about something maybe a little more controversial that just popped in my mind. Could a Christian commit suicide?

Yeah, so a Christian, I would say, can commit suicide because ultimately we still struggle with the indwelling sin within us. So suicide is a form of self-murder, and these people deserve compassion to be listened to, to be cared for, but we still have to say, like, this is still a sin.

But the good news of the gospel is that Christ died for all sins of the believer. There's not one sin too great that Christ can't atone for. So, of course, it is a remarkably tragic, sad thing when a Christian takes his or her own life.

You know, it's not seeing how much God loves them, how much people around them can love them and come alongside them, but that doesn't thwart the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ.

That's a good answer, and some people in Roman Catholic circles, maybe evangelical circles that are Arminian, God doesn't forgive you unless you confess the sin, so therefore how could He forgive you for sins that you don't have time to confess, right?

That is to say, if you commit suicide, that's a sin, self-murder, but then they don't say, please forgive me. And I think to myself, Austin, well, of course, like you said, tragedy. It's awful what it does to the people that are left on the earth, and in my family there's been suicide.

It's just awful. But Jesus, when He paid for His bride's sins, those were past, present, and future sins, right? Amen. And I would put it this way. I was in the hospital for 16 days, thought I was going to die from COVID, and there were times, sadly, that I was worried, that I was anxious.

I thought to myself, and I could cry thinking about it, what's going to happen with my wife? Who's going to take care of her? What about my children? What about walking some of them down the aisle? And all these things, and I was worried.

What if I would have died in the state of worry? Would I have gone to heaven? Well, what's the difference between worry as a sin? It's against God. Self-harm, self-murder is against God. I'm not saying there's not degrees of sin or this, that, or the other, but if you die worried, thinking, you know what, I'm worried about even, am I going to go to heaven?

And then you die, you're still in the presence of God, because if He loved you, He'll love you forever. What's that old phrase? If ever He loved you, He'll love you forever. Amen.

I mean, the doctrine of perseverance of saints is about God's power. You're being guarded by God's power, not by your power, because we're weak. We're very weak.

See, that's why this is so important, because it takes the emphasis off of us. Yes, perseverance of the saints, yes, saints persevere. But why do they persevere, and who makes them persevere? That's the real issue.

Amen. So back to the doctrine of God, back to, let's study the Trinity, let's study the essence and nature of God. And I think we've experienced quite a bit of good retrieval, have we not, when it comes to the classical doctrine of God, and I think that will help with assurance, that will help with perseverance, that will help with limited atonement, election, and everything else.

Consequences of Denying Perseverance and Christ’s Finished Work

Amen. Amen. That's right. Anything else you want to say?

We've got three more minutes. Yeah, yeah. We also talked about the consequences of denying the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. So I think denying this doctrine really strikes at the heart of the gospel, because if the gifts of, or really, if faith and your perseverance to the end are not benefits of the redemption won by Christ, then those are works you add to Christ.

So really, the new covenant is not a new covenant of grace, but it's a new covenant of works. So in the old covenant of works, God required perfect obedience. But now, because you sin, of course, Armenians believe that you have sinned, you need Christ.

But now, the work you have to complete now is faith, and faith is something you add to the work of Christ. So Armenians can't claim that faith is an instrumental cause of salvation, one by which you grasp hold of the work of Christ, but that, in some way, put it alongside that Christ does 99%, you need to do at least your 1%.

But we as Calvinists believe that faith and perseverance, those are both gifts, gifts won by Jesus Christ, his life, death, and resurrection for us. So those aren't things we add to Christ, but those are things Christ works in us.

So holding to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints in the Calvinistic way, it's essential for upholding the true gospel. I love it.

Tell me what I'm reading. When the arrival of Jesus the Messiah, that faithful dilemma is resolved. Those who enter into Christ being here for us no longer have to live under a continuous low-lying black cloud.

A new power is in operation. The spirit of life in Christ, like a strong wind, has magnificently—I can't say it—cleared the air, freeing you from the fated lifetime of brutal tyranny at the hands of sin and death.

Wow, that sounds like the message, all right.

Oh, Mike, you have a leather-bounded message? You know what, I think it's— Bonded love?

Your devotions? In the message? NAVPRESS. We used to call NAVPRESS NAVDEPRESSED. Who's the best writer who's published by NAVPRESS, do you remember? Jerry Bridges. There you go, Jerry Bridges. I think it's much better just to say, there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ now.

Right, right. It's clear. I did see here at the very beginning, I had not noticed this, the message, New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs, Eugene Peterson. New Testament exegetical consultants, William Klein, Denver Seminary, Daryl Bock, DTS, Donald Hagner, Fuller, Moses Silva, Westminster, Reverend Whitaker at Trinity Episcopalian.

Isn't that interesting? I never knew those were the exegetical contributors.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, they have some very significant names there.

Thanks for listening. Today we're talking about perseverance of the saints. Last question, Austin, if somebody wanted to read a book or booklet or something about perseverance, what would be the best thing that they could do?

Recommended Reading on Perseverance

Ooh, the Doctrine of Perseverance, that's a good question. Well, you know, the book I studied for this, I've read before, is W. Robert Godfrey's book called Saving the Reformation. So he translates the Cans of Dort and he writes a commentary on that.

So he has a very simple commentary on the Doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints that's in plain language.

I recommend it. I love Dr. Godfrey for many things. One is he takes difficult concepts and makes them really easy to understand. Plus, he was a man to get rid of final justification advocates out of Westminster Cemetery.

Amen.