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In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Recite! In the name of your Lord, Who created. He created man from a clot. Recite! And your Lord, the Most Generous. He has set in motion the pen.
Good evening ladies and gentlemen, how are you doing? Everybody goes, thanks for that. It's wonderful to have you here tonight and let me just start off by saying, you know, we've done this last year and hopefully this becomes a tradition and it's always beneficial to bring both communities together and to actually discuss various topics.
Now we are at a slight advantage tonight for the Christian side because we all know that Jesus said in John 15 verse 1, I am divine, you are the branches, and I'm just teasing you. But ultimately, you know, this is a wonderful opportunity to bring understanding together and to have a talk and to discuss these things because sometimes we only read about it in literature, and not every time or most of the times we actually get an opportunity to discuss these things.
So it's wonderful to have both communities come together. I just quickly want to outline for you what the structure of the debate will be like tonight. What we're going to do is, the topic of debate tonight is Jesus God.
That is the topic of the debate. So what we're going to do is, Ayub is going to start for 30 minutes and he's going to basically get an opportunity to present his case from his side for 30 minutes, then Dr. White will basically take on 30 minutes as well.
Ayub will get 15 minutes rebut on that, on what Dr. White said, and then Dr. White will return with that, also with a rebuttal on what Ayub said. Then we're going to have a break, I'm not sure, I think we said 15 minutes, 15 minute break in between, and then what we're going to do when we return is we're going to actually have five questions each, which the speakers are going to sort of raise to one another and speak to one another about.
Then we're going to give you the opportunity for approximately 15 minutes for Q &A. So just, if you have a question, write it down and make sure that in the end of that sentence that you write down, that there's a question mark attached to that, because that'll be great.
Then also, we will have the closing statements of each speaker for five minutes each, and that will be Ayub going first again, and then Dr. White ending off the debate. So yes, that is basically the structure of the debate, and I just want to say from our side specifically, some of us are not from the States, Dr. White is from the States, some of us are from the Free States, some of us are from Johannesburg, some of us are from all around the country, some of us are locals from Durban itself, but let me just say thank you from our side, because working with ICRA, working with Ayub, is always such a pleasure, and we are always so well-received, and wherever we go in the world, we say that whenever we come to Durban, whenever we come to you guys and your side, you always treat us with absolute hospitality, and I just want to say thank you for that, for always treating us with absolute hospitality, I really appreciate that.
I'm going to ask Reverend Thomas to come up and to open up and pray for the Christian side, and then after that I'm going to give over to Fadil to actually take it from there. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, have a lovely night.
Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we come to you in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior. We thank you for the glory of the Gospel, and as the Apostle said that we must not be ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation.
We thank you for the great privilege that you've given us in the universe, because you are sovereign, and you know everything about everything in the world. When society goes wrong, we have the answers in your word, and we thank you, Lord, that you are king of the world, and we also thank you, Lord, for the great privilege you've given us to have a ready defense when it comes to speaking about your word, and we know, Lord, that you've created all people with one blood, and you are the eternal God of wisdom and understanding, and you have determined to make a people for yourself from every tribe and every nation and every people and every kindred in the world, and you have decided to cut a covenant even before the world began, for the Lamb of God was slain before the foundations of the world, and we thank you that you determined to make a people for yourself, and we know that your covenant cannot fail because your name cannot fail, and, Lord, thank you for your great salvation.
Thank you for this great opportunity and privilege that you've chosen us who are not a people, people that are hellbound, to be saved because of Jesus Christ, our Savior, and we thank you because of him that we come here today and to honor him and to glorify him, and we give you all worship and all praise today as we've come together with our fellow brothers and as we would commend this meeting to your transcendent wisdom, for your guidance is what goes before us, as you are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You are not the God of the philosophers of this age, but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and we thank you, Lord, that we are given this grand privilege today to come in his name, and now as we continue with the debating, may all glory and honor go to your name.
Amen.
In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful. In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Our tears welcome Dr. James White to the shores of South Africa. This is not the first time that ICRA, Islamic Comparative Religious Academy, hosts Dr. White from Alpha and Omega Ministries via the great efforts of my friend and colleague and co-founder and co-host, Rudolf.
It's the second year running, and I'm very happy to say that since last year, the debates were extremely cordial, very friendly, and in the spirit of sharing, and I trust that tonight will be no different.
I urge you to maintain this decorum and this spirit of interaction between Muslims and Christians so that you make my job and Rudolf's job as our co-host here this evening very pleasant. Ladies and gentlemen, it is customary for us also to have a short prayer, and this time I would like to welcome my brother on my left here.
He's Hafiz al-Quran, knows the Quran of my heart. His name is Mohsin Rafiq, and he's going to recite the Asma al-Khusna, which is the 99 attributes of Allah. Very appropriately for the topic tonight, which is, is Jesus God?
Christians say yes, but Muslims say no. So over to my brother Mohsin. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna.
Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna.
Asma al-Khusna. Asma al-Khusna. May the peace, blessings, and mercy of God Almighty be upon you all. The subject for tonight's discussion is Jesus God. And my endeavor tonight is to show you that Jesus is not God.
And in order to do this, I basically have to separate, or rather prove to you that in this statement, or in this question, is Jesus God, there are two separate entities. One being Jesus Christ, and one being God Almighty.
And of course, within the question, is Jesus God, I believe that my learned friend here, Dr. James White, will try to prove that Jesus is God. And somehow, because I have two entities to prove my case, I believe that I have a much more difficult task tonight.
But nevertheless, I promise you, I will give it my best shot. Now to begin with, is Jesus God? For us to understand this, I think it would be fair for us to establish who God is, what is God's nature, and then measure Jesus Christ against that standard.
And see whether he reaches that standard, or whether he measures to that standard. And in the Quran, we have 99 attributes of God Almighty, which the Hafiz of Quran, he's left already, he read a few, what is called in the Quran as the Asma-ul-Husna, and he read some of the attributes to you.
Of course, for those of you who understand Arabic, understood it, and for those of you who did not, then I suggest you write to Iqra Islamic Comparative Religion Academy, or email me, and I promise to send you a Quran, English Quran, free of charge.
You're welcome to that. Now, in the Bible, I believe that there are attributes there as well, and I want to share those attributes with you, and I want the Muslim audience, of course the Christians it's in the Bible, you know it's there, alright?
But the Muslims don't know this, and I want to read this from 1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 16, 1st Timothy. My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, listen to me very, very carefully. 1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 16.
It begins, Allah, Al-Quddus, Al-Malik, Al-Malikul-Mulk, Al-Hayyul-Qayyum. Any Muslim that disagrees with that, please raise your hands. I know this sounds strange to the Christians, but any Muslims, please, if you object to what I've just read, but I'm quoting you the Bible, not the Quran.
1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 16. I'll read it to you again. Allah, Al-Quddus, Al-Malik, Al-Malikul-Mulk, Al-Hayyul-Qayyum. Christians, this is what I've read. In English, 1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 16.
God, the Blessed One, or the Holy One. The King, or the Ruler. Al-Malikul-Mulk, the King of Kings. Al-Hayyul-Qayyum, immortal, forever living, the one that does not die. Al-Nur, Nur ala Nur, unapproachable light, light upon light.
This is the description of God Almighty given in the Bible, not the Quran. Whom no one has seen or can see. This is a clear-cut definition in the Bible. And I urge you to make a note of this. And don't take my word for it.
When you go back home, look it up. 1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 16. So I have a standard. I have a criteria. That this is what I am told by your Saint Paul. When he's writing this 1st letter to Timothy.
That these are the criteria for God Almighty. Now I ask you. If Jesus Christ does not measure to these standards. What will you as the individual do? Muslim or Christian? And then we read in the book of Malakai.
Chapter 3, verse 6. For I am the Lord, I change not. He is God. Those are His qualities which are read to you. Some of His qualities. And He says, I change not. So, if He is the Holy One. I don't expect Him to become unholy one.
If He is the King, I don't expect Him to be a pauper. Or the ruler. Or the one that is being ruled. If He is King of Kings. Then I don't expect Him to get any lower than that. And if He alone is immortal.
I don't expect Him to become mortal. And whom no one has seen. Or heard. Or can see. Then I don't believe He will change into something that people can see. Or will be seen. Malakai makes it clear. I change not.
And then we read in Numbers 23. God is not a man. God is not a man. And I believe. That in the New Testament. Jesus Christ is referred more times as the Son of Man. Than the Son of God. Many more times.
And in fact, Jesus Christ refers to Himself more often. As the Son of Man. Than the Son of God. And the same verse. Numbers 23, 19. It says, know a son of man. That he should change his mind. In other words, God is not a man.
And God is also not a son of man. So we have another criteria. And then. In the book of Isaiah, chapter 43, verse 10. I'm not going to read this in Arabic. Because I want the Muslims to tell me whether they disbelieve in this.
And this is my favorite verse. In all of the Bible. And today I have the opportunity of quoting this. Before me, no God was formed. Before God Almighty. No God was formed. Nor will there be one after me.
Now, I have given you from Timothy. I have given you Malachi. I have given you Numbers. And I have given you Isaiah. And I think I have set the record right. I have made it clear. What you expect God Almighty to be.
So now, let us look at the life. Of Jesus Christ. Now I read. Okay, before I go on to this. I just want to mention this. In the English language, I believe, as in every other language. What we call evolution of language.
Of words. And as life progresses. Or as civilization progresses. Words take on different meanings. But we cannot misuse the English language. To make the word mean. What we intend it to mean to suit our doctrine.
For example. Simple example. If I go to the shop. And I say, I want a loaf of bread. I expect to get a loaf of bread. You cannot serve me sandwiches. And say, okay, but it is bread. It does not make sense.
And if I ask for a liter of milk. I need a liter of milk. I want a liter of milk. You cannot give me milkshake. And say, no, but there is milk in it. Words have meaning. In all languages. Now, in the book of Colossians.
Chapter 1, verse 15. I find this very strange. Seriously, do words have meaning? He, referring to Jesus Christ. Is the image of the invisible God. He, referring to Jesus Christ. Is the image of the invisible God.
Now, invisible God. I know what the word invisible means. It means something you cannot see. Now, how do you take something that you cannot see. And make an image of it. Seriously. Now, if I was not a Muslim.
If I was an atheist. And I was reading this. Then I would say that this is utter rubbish. Sorry to use this word. And I am saying it with respect, Dr. White. Right. What the Christians are doing. Is that you are giving the atheists a stick to beat you with.
And that is why in Europe today. Of the total population of Europe. You have more people in Europe. 40 of Europe today believes. That Jesus Christ is a myth. Because of statements like this. I mean, how do you expect a man to believe.
Growing up all his life. Invisible, invisible. I know what invisible means. It is something I cannot see. And all of a sudden you tell him. No, but he is made in the image of something invisible. I believe it is nonsensical.
You cannot make statements like that. Seriously. Then, according to the Bible. Jesus Christ himself. He says in John chapter 1 verse 18. And these are the criteria that Jesus Christ says. And he says, no man has seen God at any time.
No man has seen God at any time. You have neither heard his voice at any time. Nor seen his shape. That was John chapter 5 verse 37. And then same on 4 .12. No man has seen God at any time. And in John 4 .23.
It says, God is a spirit. And for those that worship him, must worship him in spirit and in truth. Now, that Jesus would say that no one has seen God. No one has seen his shape. While his followers were there.
And people were seeing Jesus Christ. And they were listening to him. They were there. They were watching him. And he is saying that nobody has seen God Almighty. Nobody has heard God Almighty. Nobody has seen his shape.
Yet he was there. They could hear him. They could see him. They knew his shape. So Jesus Christ definitely did not preach that he was God. He preached contrary to that. Then of course, in the Bible, there are statements that you will hear later on.
In this discourse. Probably Dr. James White will produce to justify. That you know, you have seen God. Then I would say that these are contradictions which Christianity must deal with. In the book of Job.
In the book of Job. You read chapter 25. From verses 6, 7 and 8. Another criteria for God Almighty. And this is not just a criteria. It is a comparison between God Almighty and Jesus Christ. And specifically Jesus Christ.
Because this verse refers to the son of man. How then can man be justified with God? The book of Job chapter 25 from verse 4, 5 and 6. Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Who believes that Jesus Christ was not born of a woman?
Please raise your hands. Who believes that Jesus Christ was not born of a woman? So the book of Job says. How then can he be clean who is born of a woman? Who was the mother of Jesus Christ? Mary. So he was born of a woman.
And the question that is being posed. How can he be clean? Which means that he is not clean. Behold even to the moon. And yea even the stars are not clean in his sight. Even the stars. Not clean in the sight of God.
How much less man. Which is a maggot. You and I. In comparison to God Almighty according to the book of Job. How much less man who is a maggot. What is a maggot? Of course you know what is a maggot. But I am going to say this.
A maggot is a worm that lives in filth. And the verse continues. And the son of man is a worm. Book of Job chapter 25 verse 6. And the son of man is a worm. So the difference between a maggot and a worm.
Both are worms. But the maggot lives in filth. And the worm has got a status slightly higher. Maybe found in a fruit or in vegetables. But not in filth. That is the distinction. That God Almighty is making.
So when we look at this comparison. We look at the criteria. Then we ask ourselves. This. What I am producing to you. Does not need. You don't need. To be a professor in theology. You don't need to be a DD.
A doctor of divinity. Right. These are arguments pertaining common sense. As this common sense will dictate. That you understand these concepts. Visible, invisible. Right. God is making a comparison. He is God.
And he is likeness of a worm. Common sense will tell you the difference. Simple. Now. Let's just say. That I am not a Muslim. And I am not a Christian. And that I don't belong to any religion. And I am reading the Bible.
Now how does one reconcile. The following statements. In relation to God. Let's just say hypothetically speaking now. That Jesus is God. Okay. Let's just say he is God. And I am reading in the Bible. He is telling Mary.
Magdalene. Go tell thy brethren. That I. Referring to himself. That I ascend unto my father. And your father. I ascend unto my father and your father. And I ascend unto my God. And your God. He is God.
You believe that he is God. But now this God is telling Mary. That I am going to your God. And I am going to my God. How do you reconcile that? One God is going to another God. Seriously. It is two separate entities.
God is there in heaven. Jesus Christ is down here on earth. And he is telling you that I. You believe that he is God. So I am God but I am going to another God. Seriously. Does this make sense? Then he says very clearly.
If he is God. In John chapter 17 verse 3. And this is life eternal. That they may know thee. The only true God. And Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. He makes a clear distinction. Right. And this is life eternal.
That they may know thee. The only true God. Referring to God Almighty. The only true God. And Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. So God is there. And the one that he sent. Is definitely of a lower status.
Because the more powerful one can send the lesser powerful one. So Jesus Christ is being sent. And. John 17 verse 3 is actually. The shahada of the Muslim. That is our shahada. You ask any Muslim. La ilaha illallah.
Isa rasulullah. No Muslim will dispute that. And my dear Christian friends. Ask them do you deny la ilaha illallah. Isa rasulullah. Not one of them will deny it. Because we believe. We believe sincerely.
And we believe that this is life eternal. That they may know thee the only true God. And Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. God Almighty. Sent Jesus Christ with the Injil. To preach the Injil. And then.
In the garden of Gethsemane. He is God. This is what we are told. And if I believe that he is God. Then in the garden of Gethsemane. He falls down with his face to the ground. And he prays to God. One God.
Is praying to another God. This is what you are saying. But then of course I know towards the end. The argument of the Trinity will come in. But when we get there. We will deal with it. But still it is two separate entities.
And then finally. When Jesus Christ. Is supposed to have been on the cross. Jehovah's Witnesses say he is on a stake. Either way. But he is supposed to be there. And he shouts. And he cries out. The Arabic Bible reads.
My God. My God. Why has thou forsaken me? If he was God. Then I can re-read that for you. As myself. Why have I forsaken myself? That is actually what you want me to read. And no matter how ludicrous.
This may sound. It is not my intention to ridicule your religion. But you. Are affording me the opportunity to do that. By proposing that Jesus. Is God. When there is no evidence. In the Bible. To prove that he is God.
And I challenge Dr. White tonight. To produce such evidence. To show that Jesus Christ is God. The criteria that are given. He must measure Jesus Christ to that standards. And show that yes. He is immortal.
He cannot die. But of course he can't do that tonight. Because Christians believe that he died on the cross. So if he died on the cross. He was immortal. If he was immortal. He could not have died. He is mortal.
That is why he died. If you believe so. That Jesus by his own admission. And by his own actions. Acknowledged, worshipped and prayed. And called to another being. Being God. And this is clear proof that Jesus Christ is not God.
And that he was sent by God. This is what we have been telling you. Jesus Christ refutes. Divinity in the Bible. Clear proof. He refutes it. We read in John. In Matthew. Chapter 19. Chapter 19 verse 16.
Is it chapter 19 verse 16? Can you correct me on this? Good master. What good thing must I have in eternal life? 19, 16. Is it not 16, 19? Matthew and Mark. Matthew chapter 19 verse 16. A young man. Comes to Jesus Christ.
And he says good master. What good thing must I do. To earn eternal life? Or to get eternal life? Now, him being. A person who is coming. To a learned man. Jesus Christ. Because a good master. Teacher.
What good thing must I do to get eternal life? And how does Jesus Christ answer him? He answers him as a Muslim. His response is. Typically a Muslim response. He says. He responds. With a corrective measure.
Why callest thou me good? Why callest thou me good? There is none good. Except one. And that is God almighty. He does not. That would have been the opportune time. But he doesn't want to be even called good.
He rejects that idea. That is humility. That is Jihad. You know the people talk about Jihad. Jihad in Islam. That is your first stage of Jihad. When you fight yourself. You are not proud. You are not arrogant.
You are humble enough to concede that you are not good. The first stage of Jihad. And we talk about Jihad. Everybody puts it on the lap of the Muslims. So I say. Here is a beautiful case of Jihad. Jesus Christ is practicing Jihad.
Humbling himself. I am not good. There is only one good. And that is God almighty. So he rejects the concept of divinity. Absolutely. So here are all the evidence. To say that Jesus Christ is not God.
And then of course. We as Muslims we believe. That Jesus Christ was born miraculously. But nevertheless. He was born. But if you tell me that he is God. And you insist that he is God. Then this is my interpretation.
Of the events. In your Bible. Luke chapter 1 verse 31. And behold thou shall conceive in thy womb. I am asking you conceive what in thy womb? You are telling me that Jesus is God. Are you telling me that Mary conceived God in the womb?
Conceive Jesus yes I can accept. But then you can't tell me that Jesus is God. Because no woman can conceive God in a womb. It will never happen. But this is your belief. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Are you telling me that God was born in Bethlehem.
Because you believe that Jesus is God. And Mary. Breastfed Jesus Christ. Are you telling me that God was breastfed. Because you are telling me that Jesus is God. And Jesus. When he was 12 years old. They went up to Jerusalem.
So are you telling me. That God only went to Jerusalem when he was 12 years old. So now you have a 12 year old God. A boy God. Ladies and gentlemen seriously. What are you doing to God Almighty. He has set such a high standard.
In 1 Timothy. Chapter 6 verse 16. And you reduce him to that level. A level of a human being. And seriously. If any human being. Had the power the opportunity. Of becoming anything. Any one of you. Let's say you had the power to become anything.
I want to know from you. Why would you want to become something lesser. When you know that it is only natural. For us to aspire. To become something better. That is what we will aspire for. None of us would want to become lower.
I mean a king would he want to become a pauper. Definitely not. A man who is strong. Maybe in the field of martial arts. Or boxing. Would he want to become a paralytic person sitting in a wheelchair. No.
And if you are a man. Would you want to become a cockroach or a worm. Like what Job says. Do you want to become a worm. Become a cockroach. I will squash you right there. Job is done. Why would a man want to do that.
So why would God want to become as a man. Something lesser. These are all illogical. There is no logic behind it. There is no rationale behind it. To attribute such things to God Almighty. I believe. That we are making.
A mockery of God Almighty. Sincerely. This is not how we address. The might. Of God Almighty. This is not how we address. The holiness of God Almighty. We cannot reduce God to that. But then now when we look at.
The Quran. And. The reason why I want to bring in the Quran. At this point. The Quran also gives us criteria. And one of the criteria. That the Quran gives us. It says. Shall I take for my protector. Any other than God.
The maker of the heavens and the earth. And it is he that feeds. But is not fed. It is he. Who feeds but is not fed. So if Jesus Christ was fed. He was reliant on somebody else. To feed him. So when Mary the mother of Jesus Christ.
Was breastfeeding Jesus Christ. Do you sincerely think she was carrying. In her arms God Almighty. Or that she was carrying the son of God. The second person of the Trinity. Do you think she actually taught that.
That is what she was doing. But then in the Quran we are given. Another standard. And actually I want to address this. With the Muslims as well. And it says in the Quran. Christ the son of Mary. Was no more than apostle of God.
Many were the apostles. That passed away before him. His mother. He talks about his mother. She was a virtuous woman. A sincere woman. A truthful woman. And she would have no reason to lie. In fact in the Quran.
The standard. In which she is placed in the house of Islam. Far supersedes all the women. Of all nations. That is the honor that she has in the house of Islam. And then Allah tells us. And they both had to eat food.
And you know I was talking to. A group of Hafiz of Quran. And I said listen. You all are reading the Quran. And we do this in Ramadan as well. My Muslim brothers will know that. Every Ramadan we are reading.
From Surah Fatiha to Surah Nas. We'll try and finish in 30 days. Some of us will try and finish in 20 days. Some of us will try to read 3 Qurans. Every 10 days we want to push the Quran. And I believe that the Quran is a miracle.
Every Muslim believes it is a miracle. But I want to know from you. What is miraculous about God Almighty telling you. They both had food. When every Tom, Dick and Harry is eating food. When everybody in the world is eating food.
The animals are eating food. The insects are eating food. The fish is eating food. So everybody is eating food. Now what is miraculous about God Almighty. Giving this as a revelation. And you are getting sawab for it.
For reading it. Blessings for reading it. And Allah is telling you. And you are reading it. You are getting sawab for it. But why is that? For what is Allah telling you that? Simply because. Christians believe that He is God.
And Allah is making it easy for you. That if they had food. They have an inlet. They must have an outlet. You figure that out. You figure it out. This is what God Almighty is telling you. And this is revelation.
Miracle. Miracle. If you eat something. It's got to come out somewhere. And that is not the quality of God. Definitely not the quality of God. See how simple Allah is putting it for you. See how easy we make our signs.
Look again. Look again. How they are deluded away from the truth. Time out. JazakAllah. Thank you very much.
Thank you for that Ayub. I now present to you Dr. James White all the way from Phoenix, Arizona in America. And Dr. White, I'm going to give it over to you.
It is a wonderful honor to be with you this evening. Let me begin first of all by a word of apology. I have spent about 36 hours in enclosed aircraft over the past few weeks. I have been teaching in Zurich, in Kiev, Ukraine.
I did a debate on homosexuality in Johannesburg Friday evening. I've been debating each night this week, and my voice is not what it once was. And so I am not trying to speak quietly just to make you listen more carefully.
It's just all the voice I have. And so I'm going to do my best to keep that this evening, and I hope that won't be too much of a distraction to you as I will be starting a 36-hour journey home tomorrow morning.
So it is great to be back here with you in Durban. We were here just a little over a year ago. It rained that night as well. I understand you need that. It is an honor to be with Ayub Karim and all of his staff here once again, and with the best-dressed moderator everywhere, the moderator with the bling.
That's, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not Rudolph. Rudolph bling, that's not, that's not my description of Rudolph. So it is good to be with you this evening and to discuss this extremely important topic.
My desire in engaging in debate and dialogue with my Muslim friends, not only to encourage my Christian friends, but especially to you, my Muslim friends, is to increase our understanding of what the two communities actually believe.
I am convinced that one of the major problems we have is we do not talk to each other, and when we do, we assume we already know what the others believe. There's a tremendous amount of ignorance amongst my Christian brethren about what you believe, and I take heat from my Christian brethren for trying to explain to them that there are all sorts of different kinds of Muslims, and you need to understand that there are varieties of belief and understanding and perspectives, and you need to talk to someone and find out where they're coming from, and I take a lot of heat because there are people on my side that just want to say, well, they're all just Muslims.
They all just want to be jihadis, and that's just it, and I try to warn people this is not the direction that we need to be going. We need to listen, and we need to understand, and I have taken the time to read the Quran many times.
There's not a single lecture of Ahmad Didat that I know of that I have not listened to more than once, and I have read all of Sahih al-Bukhari, all of Sahih Muslim. How many Christians do you know of that have read all of those collections of Hadith?
Not too many. Why would I do that? Because I want to be able to communicate with you, and we do have a language barrier. You assume that we mean certain things by certain words, and we assume you mean certain things by certain words, and the result is, very often, we end up talking right past each other.
I don't want that to happen this evening. Now, the objections that were just raised to my belief in the doctrine of the Trinity are extremely common amongst Muslims, and I hope in the next few minutes to at least, when you leave this place this evening, you will be able to understand what the real issues are and where the real focus of our conversation should be, because I am convinced from my study of the Quran that the author of the Quran did not understand what Christians believe.
When I read Surah 5, verse 116, when I hear Allah saying to Jesus, did you say to the people, worship yourself and your mother as gods in derogation of Allah, I know that whoever wrote that did not understand what Christians believe about the Trinity, did not understand it.
And so, if that is the primary source of information you have about what we believe and what Christians believed back then, well, then we're never really going to get very far because that's not what we believe.
We don't believe Jesus was praying to himself. Every text that was raised this evening, Christian scholars and believers have read and pondered and translated ever since they were first written down. There is a fundamental misunderstanding that has under underlied everything that has been said this evening.
Christians believe that there is one God who created all things. The Old Testament term for that one God is the Hebrew tetragrammaton, which means Yahweh. That's God's name in the Old Testament, Yahweh.
Now, in some English languages, that's slaughtered as Jehovah, but that couldn't possibly have been the way it was pronounced in Hebrew originally. The most probable pronunciation of the divine name, and the Jews will not pronounce the divine name, if you're Jewish, I'm not trying to offend you, but in the Hebrew Old Testament, God's name is Yahweh, occurs over 6 ,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.
Yahweh created all things. Yahweh is the one speaking in Ayyub's favorite verse in the Bible, which happens to be one of my favorite verses in the Bible, Isaiah 4310, which at the end of the verse says, before me there is no God formed and there shall be none after me.
But the whole verse says, you are my witnesses, says Yahweh, speaking to Israel, and my servant whom I have chosen that you may know and understand and to believe that I am he. Before me there is no God formed and there shall be none after me.
I absolutely believe those words. I have defended those words long before I ever did a debate with any Muslim in the world. I had been leading people and going to witness to the Mormons in Salt Lake City.
The Mormons are polytheists. They believe in many gods. They believe they can become gods. And Isaiah 4310 was a verse that I have quoted literally thousands of times. I've witnessed to more than 5 ,000 Mormon missionaries, and probably in every one of those encounters, I've quoted Isaiah 4310.
We believe that there is only one true God, creator of heaven and earth. No one created him. There was nothing before him. Anything that exists, exists because he willed to bring it into creation. That is fundamental to every single Christian creed you will ever find.
So why are we here this evening? Because what divides us is not monotheism. What divides us is Unitarianism. Well, what's Unitarianism? Well, we all understand that there is such a thing as the being of God, that which makes God, God.
Absolutely unique, but God exists. He's not just a theory or an idea. God has actual existence. And what divides us is whether that eternal unlimited being of God is only shared by one person or by three persons.
Now, you and I distinguish between being in person. We do it every day. You're doing it right now. Do you know you're distinguishing between being in person? You're sitting on a chair, unless you're standing, but I'm not seeing only, I'm only seeing two people in here that are standing right now.
So pretty much everyone is sitting in a chair. Now, when you walked up to sit down on that chair, did you introduce yourself to the chair? Hello, Mr. Chair. What is your name? You didn't. Why? Because you recognize it has being.
If it didn't have being, it wouldn't be holding you up right now. But it's not personal. It's not personal. You could have sat down in it and ignored it. It has no feelings to be hurt. You could have looked at and said, you're a beautiful chair.
The chair wouldn't have cared. You could have said, you're an ugly chair. Still wouldn't have cared, because it has no personhood. It just exists. Now, you pick it up and throw it at somebody, they'll know it exists too.
I hope you don't take that literally. It has being, but it's not personal. The Bible says there are three kinds of beings that are personal. God, men, and angels. So you and I share a common humanity.
Our being is that of human being, but we are finite and limited. God is infinite and unlimited. Our being is limited to one person, whoever you are. When we have people who think they're more than one person, well, we have nice friendly doctors who come and take care of them.
But the question is, God's being, being unlimited and eternal, is it limited to one person, or does Revelation tell us that there are three persons that share that one being? Now, I do not believe that the author of the Quran understood that.
It's not that it could not have been known, because all the Trinitarian controversies had long since been decided by the time of 632 AD. But the reality is, Christians believe that God, Yahweh, exists eternally as three divine persons, Father, Son, and Spirit.
The Son was not casting his voice at his baptism. He wasn't doing ventriloquism. The Father and the Son send the Spirit. The Spirit is different than the Father and the Son. So the vast majority of the argumentation that was presented this evening was demonstrating that Jesus is not the Father, which we believe, have always believed.
So it wasn't relevant to the Trinity. You see, there are two fundamental assertions that we make. There is one true eternal God, but we also assert that God, if he created this world, and he created mankind, if he so chooses, can enter into his own creation, if that will glorify himself.
We were just asked, was God in Mary's womb? Well, if God's big enough to make Mary's womb, big enough to make the incredible miracle of life itself that brought each of us into existence, are you telling me your God is not big enough to take on a human nature if he wants to?
Now notice what I just said. Most of you just translated what I said into something else. I said, take on a human nature. I did not say that the Son ceased being deity when he became man. You see, you all hear us saying that, and you say, well, God can't cease to be God, and we're not saying he did.
The Father didn't become flesh, the Spirit didn't become flesh, and when the Son took on a human nature, he didn't cease to be deity. It's not that God ceases being God and becomes man, then becomes God again.
No, no, no. John chapter 1 verse 14. Well, John chapter 1 verse 1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Not a God. That is a fundamental misapprehension of the Greek language, and anyone who says that to you, I mean, they're proving by that they've never read a word of Greek in their life.
I teach Greek. I've taught Greek in the graduate level for over a decade. Well, decade and a half. Oh, good grief. I'm getting old. In the beginning was the Word, where it was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1 .14, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory. The glory is of the unique one from the Father, full of grace and truth. So the Logos, who had eternally existed as God, becomes flesh.
He does not cease being the Logos. He does not cease being divine. He takes on a human nature so that he is now the God-man and he dwells amongst us. That's the testimony of John. There can be no question that that's the testimony of John.
When you look at that book, which begins with that statement, and then goes on four verses later to say, no one has seen God in a time. The monogamous Theos, the unique God who is next to the Father's side, he has explained or revealed him.
What John is saying is, no one has seen the Father. How do we know who the Father is? How do we have confidence we can have a relationship with the Father? Because the Son reveals him perfectly. And I submit to you, no mere creature can perfectly reveal the infinite and eternal God.
And so the writer of the Gospel of John tells us that the Word's eternal. The Word became flesh. The Word was the unique God. The Word is perfectly capable of revealing the Father in perfection. And then you work through the Gospel of John and what does he say?
Well, in John chapter 5, he says, I can do nothing of myself. Yes, by myself, separate from the Father, is some competing deity. He and the Father have perfect unity. His words are the Father's words.
What prophet can say the things that Jesus said? What prophet can claim the things that were said of Jesus? It would have been blasphemy for any prophet to utter the words that are ascribed to Jesus in all of the Gospels, every single one of them.
Every single one of them. So that when you get to John chapter 8, Jesus says to the Jews, I am from above, you are from below. He differentiated himself from us, human beings, in that way. I know where I'm going, you don't know where you're going.
And then he said to them, unless you believe that I am, ego, I, me, in the Greek, you will die in your sins. Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. And then in verse 58 of that same chapter, he said, Prin abraham genistai, ego, I, me, before Abraham was, I am.
And the Jews picked up stones to stone him because they knew that that phrase, ego, I, me, went back to the Greek Septuagint. It goes back to Isaiah. And it was used by Yahweh as a self-identification.
In fact, I have some wonderful news for Ayub this evening. His favorite verse in the Bible teaches the deity of Christ. Because you see, Jesus quoted the first part of Isaiah 43 .10 from the Greek Septuagint of himself in John 13 .19.
When he was speaking of his betrayal, he quoted directly from the Greek translation of Isaiah 43 .10, where Yahweh is saying to the people of Israel, I'm going to tell you what's going to come to pass.
So when it does come to pass, you may know that anahu in Hebrew, translated as ego, I, me in Greek. The point is, God can prophesy the future. When you see the future coming to pass, then you can know that he's God.
That's Isaiah 43 .10. And Jesus says to his disciples, in talking about his coming betrayal, I'm telling you these things beforehand so when it happens, you may know that ego, I, me, I am. Jesus applied Isaiah 43 .10 to himself.
In that same book, in John chapter 17, quoted to you this evening, only one verse was quoted, 17 .3. It was said to be the parallel of the shahadah. The problem was, stop too early. Because when Jesus talked about the fact there's only one true God, which is what all Christians believe, Jesus was not an atheist.
If the second person in the Trinity became flesh, you think he'd stop talking to the first person in the Trinity? You think he wouldn't pray? Do you think he'd be an atheist? Of course not. The communion he had with the Father in eternity past would continue.
In John 17 .5, it says, Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had in your presence before the world began. What prophet? What mere prophet? Using the imperative voice of entreaty in prayer, says to God, glorify me with the glory which I had in your presence before the world began.
Jesus was claiming eternal, glorious preexistence. That's two sentences after John 17 .3. And that's the very same book that ends with Jesus appearing to disciples. And yes, he said to the women, I'm saying to my father and your father, he became man, he wasn't an atheist.
The whole purpose was that he would come, that he would take on a perfect human nature, and that he would give his life upon Calvary's tree as the only one who could give the life that would be able to give eternal life and forgiveness to all of mankind.
That's the message of Hebrews, that's the message of the Gospels, that's the message of the Christian faith. And so he refers to the Father as his God. He wasn't an atheist. But remember, every New Testament writer identifies the Father as Yahweh, identifies the Son as Yahweh, and the Spirit as the Spirit of Yahweh.
Explain that to me if they are not teaching the doctrines of Trinity. Call it a contradiction you want, that's the easy way out. The hard way is harmonizing. The hard way is asking what is actually being said by these authors to seek to understand that.
And my friends, if you have never read any of the New Testament, if you have not read our scriptures, I have to ask you why not? I've read the Quran and I've tried to understand it in context. I'd ask you to do the same thing and see if what I'm saying is not exactly the context of those writers.
But back to John, climax of the Gospel, resurrected Lord appears. Remember Thomas? Thomas was doubting Thomas. Thomas, so crushed by what he had seen in the death of Christ, what does he say? Well, unless I see the nail prints, unless I put my finger into the wound prints, I will not believe.
So Jesus, when he appears, says, Thomas, reach forth your hand, touch the nail prints, see that it is I, do not be unbelieving, but believe. Thomas doesn't have to do it. But Thomas' answer is very clear.
In the original language, there is no ambiguity as to what he said. Thomas answered and said to him, Greek is very clear here, these words are addressed to Jesus, my Lord. Same word, kurios, used of Yahweh in the Old Testament, my Lord, my God.
Now, my friends, if Jesus was merely a prophet, what would he have had to have done the instant Thomas said those words? We know in the book of Revelation, at one point, John, so overwhelmed by his seeing, falls down and tries to worship the angel.
What does the angel do? Don't worship me, worship only God. When men tried to worship the apostles in the book of Acts, don't worship us, worship only God. So what should Jesus have said to Thomas? I rebuke you, Thomas.
I am not your Lord and your God. I am not your Rab. I am not God. Worship only God. What was Jesus' response? Because you've seen me, have you believed, Thomas? Bless are those who, though they did not see, have believed.
He commends Thomas' act of faith. Now, when you start your gospel saying, in the beginning was the Word, and was with God, and the Word was God, saying that the Word is eternal, has eternally been in relationship with the Father, and the Word is, as to his very nature, deity, when you end your gospel with Thomas saying, my Lord and my God, when you identify Jesus as the I am in the middle of your gospel, there's only one conclusion.
You believe in the deity of Christ. Every gospel writer did it. Every gospel writer did it. It wasn't just John. We heard something about Jesus as a son of man. He's called the son of man more than he's called the son of God.
That's true. But you're missing something. Many times, the son of man just simply means a human being. That's not how Jesus used the title of himself. Remember the most important time he used it? John 14, verse 62.
Jesus is staying before the high priest at his own trial. Well, it's sort of a trial. It wasn't really a legal trial. And he is abjured by the high priest. I abjure you by God. Are you the son of the blessed one?
Now, from the Muslim perspective, what would Jesus' only response to that be? I am not the son of God. But Jesus doesn't say that. Jesus says, I am. And then he quotes from two verses from the Old Testament.
He quotes from Psalm 110, which becomes a text that Christians will focus great attention upon in regards to the fact that it identifies Jesus as deity. But one sent by God, both. That's what we believe Jesus is.
We're not Unitarians. We're Trinitarians. And he also quotes from Daniel. The book of Daniel, chapter 7. And there you have one called the son of man. And the son of man appears before the ancient of days.
And he has a kingdom. And his followers worship him. And the word that is used there for worship is not the weaker term that's sometimes used in the New Testament. It's called proskuneo, where you can just bow down to someone.
It is the highest form of worship, latruo, which takes place only in the temple. The son of man is a divine figure seen in Daniel 7, who has a kingdom and is worshipped. And Jesus says, that's who I am, and you will see me coming upon the clouds of glory.
And how did the Jews react? The high priest tore his robes, and he said, you've heard the blasphemy. He's worthy of death. And does Jesus go, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm merely a prophet. He does not correct it, because that's exactly who he was.
And that is why all of his disciples from the very beginning identify him not as the Father. It's not what we believe. If you want to keep proving Jesus isn't the Father tonight, I'll just sit back and go, all right, go for it, because we don't believe that.
But all his disciples speak and describe Jesus in ways that could never be used of a mere prophet. That's why he's called God by the Apostle Paul, in places like Titus 2 .13, Peter, and 2 Peter 1 .1. He's identified as Yahweh.
There in the Gospel of John, he quotes a passage about Yahweh of himself. In the preceding chapter, in John chapter 12, John quoted from Isaiah's temple vision, where he saw Yahweh sitting upon his throne and said, That was Jesus.
The writer of the Hebrews quotes the text from Psalm 102, 25 -27, that speaks of Yahweh's unchanging nature. And it contrasts how the universe, everything that's created, will get old and pass away, but Yahweh never changes.
And the writer of the Hebrews quotes those very words of the Son in Hebrews chapter 1, verses 10 -12, before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. Early on. It's not some development over time. And we see in Philippians chapter 2, a hymn of the early church.
And that hymn of the early church describes Jesus in his glorious pre-existent state, but he does not consider that equality he had with God the Father something to be held on to at all costs. But here is a question that was asked.
Why would God want to become a man? That's a direct quote I just quoted from our good friend Ayub Karim. Why would God want to become a man? Philippians chapter 2 answers, because of God's great love for you.
Because of God's great love for you. Because according to Philippians chapter 2, this one who had eternally existed in the very form of God did not consider the equality he had with the Father something to be held on to at all costs, but instead he laid that equality, not his deity, but the position he had aside being made in the likeness of man.
He did it himself. He did it voluntarily. Yes, he's sent by the Father, but he comes willingly out of love. And those attributes are veiled so that he can accomplish his purpose as the Messiah. It had been prophesied in Isaiah 9, 6.
The one that was to come was called the mighty God. And so he comes, he gives his life as a ransom for many. It says he becomes obedient even to the point of death on the cross, which even the most critical, unbelieving, skeptical scholars in the world recognize is the most documentable and historical reality of Jesus' life, was his death by crucifixion.
He gives his life upon the cross. He's raised to life upon the third day. He ascends into the presence of the Father, and there he represents all those who are united by faith with him. The whole reason, my friends, that I have peace with God this evening, the whole reason that when I woke up this morning, I did not fear the wrath of God, was because I know that I am in Christ.
It has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with what I've accomplished. Anything I try to do, I do out of love for Jesus Christ. The reason that I have peace with God is because I have one who stands in the presence of the Father, who has given his life in my place.
My sin was imputed to him. His righteousness imputed to me, so that I stand in a perfect, seamless robe of righteousness before a holy God, and therefore I have true shalom with him. And the guarantee of that salvation is the fact that the one who stands before the Father is the God-man.
When he gave his life on Calvary's tree, all those who would have faith in Jesus Christ united with him so that his death becomes their death, his resurrection becomes their resurrection. And you say, why would God want to become a man?
Because it is the means by which he has chosen to glorify himself in the creation of a special people in Christ Jesus. That's what Titus 2 .13 -14 said nearly 2 ,000 years ago. But the problem, my friends, is this.
The author of the Koran never read Titus 2 .13 -14. And that's why we have to talk to one another. And that's why I ask you, even if you disagree, listen. Try to understand. Let's have this discussion, but let's actually refute the point itself.
Thank you for being here this evening. God bless.
Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to have a 15-minute rebuttal now. The rebuttal session is going to start. And then we will... 10 minutes rebuttal. Okay, it's going to be 15, but if the respective speakers would like to limit themselves, that's fine, to 10, because it is quite late, and we have some tea and cookies as well.
So without much further ado, Ayub, 12 minutes it shall be because of time constraints. Thank you very much. Ayub Karim, your 12 minutes will start now.
I have 12 minutes, and I must say, wow! Do words have any meaning in Christian theology? Do words have any meaning in Christian theology? I've listened to Dr. White, and God has the power to take on human nature.
Is there a difference in the meaning of word, what is godly and what is humanly? Is there a difference? If there isn't one, I would like Dr. White to tell me in his rebuttal that there isn't a difference.
If God were to take on human form, I would like to know, can he lie? Can he attend on natural human lives, things like sleeping, going to the toilet? Would he sexually procreate? If he can become a human being, and he's got godly powers, and I'm trying to reconcile God and human, it's like you're telling me that, listen, Jesus Christ is a bachelor.
And then you tell me in the next sentence, yeah, yeah, he's a bachelor, but he's a married bachelor. Now, how do you want me to understand that? So you're telling me that, he is not God, but then later down in your speech, you're telling me that, yeah, he is God, he is Yahweh, and there's Yahweh, and the spirit is also Yahweh, so it is three in one.
Now, and then you tell me that, he sits at the right hand side of God, but God is there, and then now he's sitting next to God, but he's supposed to be the same person as Yahweh. Yo, this is hard to understand.
It taxes the mind. It goes beyond logic. In fact, it destroys logic. This is what you intend to do, is to destroy common sense. And I just cannot reconcile this. No person with a sense of rationale will be able to absorb this as true.
You can accept it as a myth. I don't have a problem with that. But as a fact, definitely not. It goes against the grain of reason. I mean, listen, in the past, we've had Buddha, there was a trinity. In Hinduism, today you've got Trimurti, it's also a trinity, and they tell you it's mythology, and if you tell me that, I'm prepared to accept it, because it's mythology.
You had it in Roman mythology, you've had it in Greek mythology, and I don't want to give you a list, but if you want, at question time, I'll read out the differences for you and the similarities. For example, between Jesus and Buddha.
Dr. White mentioned that Surah 119, Chapter 5 of the Holy Quran, that the author did not understand the text of the New Testament. Well, something to that effect, and that is why he didn't understand the trinity, maybe.
If you look at the Arabic, in Surah Maida, verse 119, and I'd like to read it to you and explain it to you, the Arabic reads, Arabic reads, Arabic reads, Arabic reads, Arabic reads,. And God will say to Jesus, the son of Mary, this is what God Almighty is doing for us.
He's depicting the scene of what is to happen on the Day of Judgment. This is a perpetual prophecy of the Quran. And tonight, I'm going to throw this as a challenge to Dr. White and to every Christian seated here, and to every Christian that's going to watch this on YouTube and DVD, that this challenge will stand till the Day of Judgment.
This prophecy of the Quran will be a standing challenge from now till the Day of Judgment for Dr. White, to every Christian in this audience, and to every person who watches this DVD or YouTube. And on the Day of Judgment, God will ask Jesus Christ, while they are standing there, all the prophets will be there, each one with a following, David with his following, Abraham with his following, Solomon with his, Jesus with his, and of course, Muhammad with his, peace be upon them all.
That on the Day of Judgment, he will ask, Did you, Jesus, the son of Mary, did say unto these people here to worship you and your mother in derogation of Allah? Did you say unto these people to worship you and your mother in derogation of Allah?
So people try to bring it down to the Trinity of God Almighty, Jesus, and Mary, or whatever it is. See, what God Almighty does, as I explained with the crucifixion as well, that they didn't kill him in the cross, nor did they put him on the stake.
So either way, he still wasn't killed. So here as well, so here as well, God Almighty, he says, listen, we have the Catholics who believe that Mary is the mother of God, and they believe that Jesus is God, and then amongst the Protestants, they don't accept Mary as the mother of God, but they accept Jesus as God.
So either way, both parties are covered. So God will say, Now in the Arabic, if you say, Did you say, grammatically, it is correct. And if I were to say, it becomes a statement of interrogation, in a manner of speaking.
What is God asking Jesus Christ, or what God will ask Jesus on the day of judgment? Did you, with your own mouth, utter such a statement? Now of course, with whose mouth am I going to speak? We have the chairman here, and I will ask, Mr. Chairman, did you, with your own mouth, utter such a statement?
Of course, he has to speak with his own mouth. And the same principle will apply with Rudolf. Rudolf, did you, with your own mouth, it's an emphasis, did you utter such a statement? And Jesus Christ will reply, Glory be to Allah, Glory be to God, Never could I say, what I had no right to say.
So tonight, I would like Dr. White to show me, anywhere in the Bible, while Jesus Christ walked the face of this earth, where did he claim, I am God? If he can do that tonight, the debate is over. I concede, that's all he has to do.
Show me anywhere in the Bible, according to this verse in the Quran, that is why I say it's a perpetual challenge. He will never be able to show me, where Jesus Christ said, I am God, while he walked the face of this earth.
Nowhere. Sheikh Ahmad did that, use this argument as well. And of course, I used to be at his debates and lectures. I served under Sheikh Ahmad for more than a decade. And I would see at question time, they would come, and they would give this verse, and that verse, and this verse, and that verse.
And I know I can expect this. But never will they come and say, that listen, there is no such verse in the Bible, and then we can continue our dialogue from there. But of course, they will try to justify it with other verses.
But the Quranic request is simple. Where did Jesus Christ claim to be God, while he walked the face of this earth? Show me, I am God. And this stands to the day of judgment. So that is a correct interpretation of that verse.
God is finite, infinite, then he can't be finite. This is what Dr. James White said. And as I went through, the word became flesh. And of course, he mentioned ego, amy as well. But let me deal with the I am part first.
You see, everybody calls that, you know, okay, I am. Before Abraham, I am. And just because he said I am, people think that he is God. That is far from true. Because when I read in the Bible about the blind person who used to sit on the roadside, and then Christ gave him sight, and then he started walking around and the people were questioning, is that the person?
Is that the person? Is that the person? And then he said, I am. And in the Bible, you read the words, I am he. But the he is written in italics, which means it's not in the text. So they just added it, he.
So he said, so Jesus said, ego, amy. This blind man said ego, amy. So does it make him God as well? Just because he said ego, amy? No, he doesn't. But here's the trick of the trade. You added the word he in italics in the King James Version of the Bible.
Now go and look at the Revised Standard Version of the Bible. Look at the New International Version of the Bible. They've taken out the word he in italics and they put over there, I am the man. I am the man.
I said grammatically that is incorrect as well. You still made a mess of it. Not you Christians, I mean the scholars of Christianity made a mess in the translation of the Bible. If I was there, and the people come and tell me, are you the person that gave lecture at the medical school?
Are you the gentleman that comes to the mosque on Friday at Durban University, Durban High School University? So I'll tell you, I am that person, I am that man. I won't say I am the person, or I am the man.
You will make it a definite article, I am that person. So if this is the blind person that actually became that he's the same person, he will say, I am that person, or I am he, but the he is not there.
The word that person is not there. That man is not there in the text. It's ego Amy, ego Amy for Jesus Christ. Doesn't make them God.
Jazakallah, Alhamdulillah, Rabbil Alamin. Thank you. Dr. White, thank you very much. Dr. White will do his 12 minutes now for the rebuttal.
I will be the first one to give up on the suit jacket. It's a little warm in here. I think it's the lights possibly, but I'll be the first one to, Ayub obviously can out survive me for the heat. So I give you, it's the humidity.
You've got this ocean nearby. It makes things really difficult. Let me just mention, let me just respond to what Ayub said right at the end, so it's still fresh in your mind. Then there's a bunch of things I want to try to catch up on.
Number one, he just said, well the blind man said ego Amy. Yes he did, but not in the context Jesus did. Remember in John 8 58, he places it in the context of being before Abraham and the Jews respond that by picking up stones to stone him because they know what he's claiming.
In John chapter 13, he's quoting from Isaiah 43 10 about prophesying the future and there's one that Ayub forgot, John 18 five through six because when Jesus answered, when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, he said, who are you seeking?
They said, Jesus of Nazareth. When Jesus said, ego Amy, what happened to the soldiers? They fell back upon the ground. Now do soldiers just generally fall back upon the ground? You go, I am. Of course not.
John is communicating to us the reality that Jesus is using that designation of himself that comes directly from Isaiah and the minor prophets that is used for the very name of Yahweh. Can't get around it.
Now we just had what I call the D dot challenge. Where did show me one passage in the Bible where Jesus unequivocally said, I am God. Worship me. We'll show me one place in the Quran where Muhammad said, I am the final prophet and the Quran is the final revelation from God that corrects all preceding revelations in those exact words.
If it's not true that if you can't, it must be untrue. Can't do it, can you? That doesn't make it untrue, does it? No. The D dot challenge was always a fallacious challenge. Not only did he always limit it solely to Jesus.
As soon as you showed places where Paul did that or the disciples did that, then he'd just dismiss it. But the fact of the matter is I've already showed you where Jesus accepts being called Lord and God.
Where Jesus says that he's in unity with the Father in speaking the Father's words and saying things that no mere human could ever say. He is actually worshiped by the same blind man at the end of that story in John chapter nine.
The disciples worship him after the resurrection. Are you telling me that the one who said the things that Jesus said, said come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden, I will give you rest, which is only what God does, that that one who did all these things was saying, oh, I'm not God.
I am not deity. He wasn't running around advertising it. That's a revelation of God's spirit to someone. That takes time. He was here to give his life a ransom for many. The building of the church and the explanation of his mission is left for when the Holy Spirit comes and the church is founded and built out and begins to go out into the world.
You don't expect Jesus to be running around or speaking from his cradle and saying I'm God. That's not the Christian belief. And so I'm sorry. The DDOT challenge was always artificial and it does not deal with the data as it has been provided in the New Testament itself.
And I do just want to mention Surah 5, verse 116. I'm not sure how I was refuted in my reference to that. Surah 5, verse 116. Why does the author of the Quran mention three? Allah, Mary, and Jesus. Why are there three there?
How many times does the Quran say do not say what? You probably know it's not the word for Trinity, is it? It's the actual word for three. There is a specific term for Trinity. It's never used in the Quran.
It says do not say three. Who are the three? Where is the only place in the Quran where three are mentioned in the same ayah? Surah 5, verse 116. Is the Trinity Allah, Mary, and Jesus? Nope, never has been, never will be.
Even in that day when people were talking about Mary as Theotokos, the mother of God, that was a title about Jesus, not about Mary. They were not saying that Mary gave birth to God as if Mary was before God.
That's ridiculous. They were saying that Jesus was truly God from the time of his conception. Had nothing to do with Mary at the time. That's been changed since then. But that's not what Christians believe.
And yet that's what Surah 5, verse 116 says. Now, in everything that our dear friend said just now, he assumed Unitarianism. All of his objections, do words have meaning in Christian theology? Yes, but you need to understand what those words mean.
I gave you a perfect illustration of the difference between being and person. Can he refute the utilization of those terms? Can he refute the fact that what Christians are saying, there is one being of God shared by three persons, we differentiate just as you do sitting in that chair?
There was no attempt to interact with that. And I think I can understand why. It's because the author of the Quran didn't understand that either. And that's the problem we have this evening. You see, the assumption is made by my dear Muslim friends that while God may be able to create all things, God could never enter into his own creation.
Just couldn't do it. He made it. He fully understands it. He was able to say, be, and Jesus was. But God would never ever do what Christians say he did. And the question I have to ask is, why? Don't just assume it.
Ask yourself about those prophecies. Who was that Emmanuel? One born of a virgin. Who is that one who will be prince of peace? Mighty God. Everlasting Father. Not the Father. Father in the Old Testament means God is creator.
That's a direct parallel to what you have in Colossians chapter one. Jesus Christ created all things. Colossians chapter one. And by the way, one of the arguments that was made earlier is that, well, can't you all see?
Colossians one talks about the invisible God. Jesus can't be the invisible God. He's not the Father. And yet, if you continue reading in Colossians chapter one, speaking of Jesus, it says, for by him, the very text that was quoted about the invisible God, the rest of the text says, speaking of Jesus, for by him were all things made, whether in heaven or in earth, visible, invisible, principalities, powers, dominions, or authorities, all things created by him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him, all things soon nestake him. They hold together. That's the description that Paul gives of Jesus in the very same text that was cited. So the invisible God that he's talking about is the Father, but he's been revealed in the one that Paul says in Colossians 2 .9, for in him, hati enauto, katoikai panteiplei, roma teis, teateta somatikos, for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form, Colossians 2 .9.
So, when I seek to handle your belief, I just did two debates in downtown Durban the past two nights. When I spoke about the issue of war and peace in the Bible and in the Quran, when I dealt with the text of the Quran, I bent over backwards to try to ask myself the question, am I dealing with it in context?
I'm reading all the ayat before and after. If there is a word that I'm unfamiliar with, I'm looking up the Arabic. Don't you need to do that with my text, too? Don't we need to have even scales? So, if you're going to quote from Colossians chapter one and talk about the invisible God, how about reading the rest of what chapter one says and go, well, it seems that the author didn't have the conclusion that I have that Jesus couldn't be God because he then goes on to say that he was.
Now, you may reject that, but at least handle it honestly. We've got to do that with each other's text. That's vitally, vitally important. Can I talk to you about Eloy, Eloy, Lama Sabachthani for a moment?
Can I talk to you about the words from the cross? I'll be honest with you. I love when my Muslim friends raise this issue. I really do. I have explained this to audiences in Dublin and Sydney, Australia and all over Europe and now here in South Africa, and I love getting the chance to do this, so thank you for raising this issue.
Eloy, Eloy, Lama Sabachthani. Jesus cried those words from the cross. Was he talking to himself? No. Anyone, when Mr. Karim says, well, he's speaking to himself. Why have I abandoned myself? Again, that's not what Christians believe.
We don't believe that Jesus is the father. He's speaking to the father. He was sent by the father. Three persons, one God. All of them described as Yahweh. One being of God. Our God's big enough to do that.
But here's the question. What was Jesus saying? Have you ever looked it up? Have you ever looked it up? Jesus is quoting a psalm. Did you know that? Yeah, he's calling Psalm 22. The 22nd Psalm. And in Psalm 22, it starts off, Eloy, Eloy, Lama Sabachthani.
Have you ever read the rest of Psalm 22? It's a messianic psalm. It's all about the crucifixion of Jesus. It talks about being pierced and everything that would happen to a person who's being crucified.
It's a prophetic picture of what happened on the cross, which according to Surah 4, 1 through 7, never happened. At least not to Jesus. But it ends with the justification of the suffering servant. He's justified by God.
So why does Jesus say it? He's not saying that God has abandoned him. When you start off with the first words of a famous hymn of your people, you're expecting your people to finish it out. We have a hymn called Amazing Grace.
All I have to say to my people is amazing grace, how sweet the sound. And I don't even have to finish it because they know all the rest of the song. And Psalm 22 is one of the songs of the people of Israel.
And when Jesus said that, he was starting that song and he was saying, this is being fulfilled now before your eyes. The Messiah has come. He's given his life. And he will be justified. He will be vindicated when he rises from the dead.
That's what it's about. Look more closely. Look more deeply. And you'll find that the testimony is absolutely compelling. And I rejoice to have the opportunity of sharing this information with you this evening.
Thank you very much.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I really respect Dr. White for very meticulously honoring time. It's something that we, as so-called Indians, cannot honor. Ladies and gentlemen, let's have a break. I'm going to live 10 minutes only because we have time constraints.
Okay, this is probably the culmination of the event. But it's also going to be probably the most interesting session now because we're going to have the Great White and the Deadly Dolphin to fire harpoons at each other.
They're going to have a session of five questions each that they're going to fire directly at each other. No Osama Bin Laden is going to help them. No George Bush. No Obama is going to interfere in these harpoons.
It's only weapons of mass destruction now. So they're each going to have 15 minutes to do this deal. Thereafter, you will have your boxing gloves on, in a good spirit, of course. Now, they've got five questions each way.
The respondent will have two minutes strictly to respond. After the five questions each way, you're going to have the opportunity to ask questions. While I'm on the floor, I might as well explain to you your opportunity.
You're only going to have one minute to ask your question. No Bayan, no lecture. You want a lecture, I'll arrange all for you. Please tell me. You make your point succinct and clear and you ask your question.
No multiple questions. One question. I'm going to be very strict on that. Please observe. I'm now going to call on Ayub. You're going to have your five questions starting right now.
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Alright. My first question to Dr. White. Irrespective of whether the Quran is true or false, I would certainly like to know.
If you can show us or does it exist in the Bible where Jesus Christ claimed, I am God in those words. Does it exist there? Well, I addressed the fact that this is an inappropriate challenge in my rebuttal period.
Christians do not make the claim that Jesus said specific words that I am God. What they are claiming is that the words that he did say such as I am the I am, I am the son of God, I am the son of man coming upon the clouds of glory, accepting worship, his disciples worshiping him, calling him God, that that is the reason we believe in the deity of Christ.
So I don't know why Ahmad Didat felt that that was such a great challenge because it's challenging Christians to defend a belief that we do not assert. Nowhere in our creeds, nowhere in our New Testament does it say this is what you have to do to demonstrate the deity of Christ.
And so as I've demonstrated, any reading of the words of Jesus leads one to a recognition of what he was claiming for himself which is why the Jews kept picking up stones to stone him. The fact that a specific set of words does not appear is irrelevant just as the specific set of words in the mouth of Muhammad in the Quran saying I am the final prophet don't exist but that would be a silly basis upon which for me to say well if you can't find that in the Quran that means Muhammad wasn't the final prophet.
That is an arbitrary standard that has been applied. So if you just want a real simple answer, those words don't appear, they don't need to. The words that are there are the ones that led Christians to believe in the deity of Christ.
Next question. Oh, we're going back and forth? Oh, all right. In John 14, 62, do you want to look at the text? I'll give you a chance to look at it. Actually beginning in verse 61, the high priest was questioning him and saying to him are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?
And Jesus said I am and you shall see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven. I want to ask you why did the high priest respond the way he did in verse 63?
Tearing his clothes, the high priest said what further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. If son of man means what you said son of man means, what was the blasphemy? John chapter 14, verse...
I'm sorry, Mark chapter 14, verse 62. Did I say John? I apologize. Mark chapter 14, verse 62. I was not trying to mislead. Mark chapter 14 beginning in verse 61. In verse 63, the high priest tears his clothes and says in verse 64, you have heard the blasphemy and they all condemned and be worthy of death.
So if son of man simply means a man, why does the high priest tear his garments and say Jesus is blasphemed?
Alright, I believe according to my understanding the New Testament, the gospels actually, in particular reference to the gospels, the high priest questioned him are thou the Christ, the son of the blessed one?
And Christ does not mean the son of the blessed one. Christ means the Messiah. Messiah means the anointed one. It does not mean that. We can go back to John and we'll find that the allegations at first when Jesus Christ walked in the temple of Solomon, they said tell us plainly why make us doubt are thou the Christ?
And he said I told you but you would not believe. And he carries on and then when he answered them the next charge was that the next charge was blasphemy. So why the high priest tore off his clothes is because whether Jesus Christ spoke truthfully and they were bent, they have made up their minds already that they wanted to kill Jesus Christ.
They wanted to do away with Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, that is my understanding of why he rent his clothes. My next question, John 3 .16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever so believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I would like you to define.
The word begotten. Oh, I'd love to. Thank you very, very much. No, I enjoy this. I really do. There's an entire huge footnote. I have a footnote that takes up two pages, three pages in my book on the Trinity on the Greek term monogenes, which is the term only begotten.
That's not the best translation. Monogenes means unique or one of a kind. How do we know this? Because there are two words in the Greek language. There's one called genos from which we get gene like genotype or something like that.
It means kind or type. And then there's genao which means to beget someone. Now, genos only has one N in it. Genao has two. Monogenes only has one N in the genao part. So it comes from genos, not genao.
It means unique, one of a kind. Now, it can be used of a only begotten son because he's the only one of his kind. He's the only one that has been begotten by his father. The point is that in the Gospel of John, you've all heard it said by someone, God has sons by the tons.
But that's a complete misunderstanding of what monogenes means because Jesus identified himself as the son of God in a unique and special fashion, so much so that the Jews in John chapter 19 said when they were seeking for Jesus' crucifixion that he should die because they have a law and by that law, he should die because he made himself out to be the son of God, not a son of God, not a godly man, but the son of God.
They knew that monogenes meant unique in the sense of being divine and that's the utilization of the term not only there but also in John 118 when it says the monogenes theos, the unique God, has revealed him.
So look at the use of the term in all of those texts and you'll see there's a beautiful consistency in it. Thank you. I appreciate that question. Some people are saying he's far too excited about answering questions.
Okay, this time it is the Gospel of John. Sorry about that last one. John chapter 18 beginning at verse 4. So Jesus, knowing all things that were coming upon him, went forth and said to them, Whom do you seek?
They answered him, Jesus of Nazarene. He said to them, I am he. That's the Greek phrase Ego Aimi. And Judas also, who was betraying him, was standing with them. So when he said to them, Ego Aimi, they drew back and fell to the ground.
Now in light of the previous uses of Ego Aimi in John 8 24, 8 58, 13 19, can you explain if Jesus is not doing something supernatural here in his self-identification as the I am, why do soldiers who are going to arrest someone fall backwards on the ground and you go, that's me.
Okay, that's an easy one. Alright, here's the the dilemma. I think Dr. White is sitting with. We want proof that Jesus Christ is God. Now, producing evidence whereby other people are worshipping Jesus Christ doesn't mean he is God.
I can show you 600 millions that are worshipping Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Kalankar, and even in recent times, they've even want to veto Mr. Mohandas Gandhi who is commonly known as Mahatma Gandhi as being God incarnate.
But that doesn't prove that they are gods. So by people worshipping Jesus Christ.
Doesn't prove that he is God. A classic example is in the book of Acts when Paul, in the Isle of Melita, when the serpent bit him, the barbarians looked on thinking that this man is going to die. But after a while they noticed that he didn't die.
So they thought that he was a god. Does it make him a god? So just because people worship Jesus does it make him a god? No, that is not proof. Please produce proof. That is my simple question. Okay, it's my question.
I didn't know that Dr. White would love the word begotten. But now, he needs to tell me that if that word is so important in the Bible, then why has it been removed in all modern versions of the Bible?
It's not there. And I don't know which version Dr. White uses. I'll appreciate it if he tells me. But if you look at the Revised Standard Version, both 1952 and 1971, the New International Version, I don't know if the American Standard Version, I think it's been taken out.
So if the word is so fundamental to the doctrine of Christianity, why remove it? A couple of things. First of all, I am a critical consultant on the New American Standard Bible, a fairly well-known English translation.
I have taught Greek and Hebrew for many years on the graduate level. And when someone says something's been removed from the Bible, we cannot remove anything from the Bible. It's not possible to do. What you're saying is in some modern translations, they've chosen a different translation of the term monogamies.
But the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew. And so if I said, if I compared Yusuf Ali and the Sahih International translation of the Quran, and the Sahih International, which comes after Yusuf Ali, uses a different translation, it would be silly of me to say that because there's a difference between those translations, something's been removed from the Quran.
But that's exactly what you just did with John 118. Because the term that is in the Bible is monogamies. Monogamies is in the New American Standard. It's the foundation of all of them. The question is, how are you translating it?
Do you translate it as only begotten, or do you translate it as unique, or one of a kind? This is a translational issue. To take something out of the Bible requires you to deal with the Greek and Hebrew.
And I can guarantee you that the Revised Standard Version, the New Revised Standard Version, the NESV, the ESV, and all the modern translations are based upon the same Greek text. And they all say monogamies.
So it has not been removed. The issue is, how do we understand it? And the issue is, how do we translate it? And I just explained that the reason we emphasize uniqueness in monogamies is because of the single nu in genos, rather than geno 'o, and the fact that we've moved away from, thankfully in translation, an over-reliance upon the Latin vulgate, which had used unigenitus as the primary translation.
Okay. I had to jump over to a different text there. Next text I'd like to ask about is Philippians chapter 2. Philippians chapter 2. Philippians chapter 2. This is a... Scholars identify this as an early hymn of the church.
Scholars have identified this as one of the earliest traditions we have of what the Christians believed. And in it, it says that Christ existed in the form of God, but he emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and then it finishes up with his exaltation to the highest place so that the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, those who are in heaven and earth and under the earth, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is kurios, to the glory of God the Father.
Could you explain if this comes from within one decade of the death of Jesus, how did the early Christians come to believe this so early on, if, in point of fact, Jesus and the disciples were Muslims that decried the idea that Jesus was God?
Is that your question? Yes, it is. Alright. Then I think you are sitting with a dilemma because then how do you explain this contradiction when you want me to believe in Philippians that he is deity and I would say Peter would have a better understanding because he was there and according to the book of Acts, he says, you men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God.
Yes. Right. So a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you as you yourself also know. So this contradicts Philippians. This is something you will have to reconcile, not me.
Thank you. It's my question. Is this the final question or I've got one more after this? Oh no. I've only done three so far. Three. So I've got two more. Alright. Dr. White, do you believe that, well actually, this is what you've mentioned and correct me if I'm wrong, that God came down to earth because he chooses, I mean in his creation he can choose to go anywhere.
My question to you is that do you not believe that God is omnipresent? I mean why does he have to come down to earth in a human form when his presence is everywhere?
It really doesn't make sense to me. Please explain. Sure. I would love to. I love doing this and I so appreciate our conversation. Why do Christians believe that Jesus was the God man and that God specifically had to come in human form?
The Bible teaches that we have been separated from God by our sins. And the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death. So how can God make us right with himself while still remaining holy? We do not believe he can simply dismiss his law.
We do not believe he can stop being holy. That law has to be fulfilled. And so how could God provide a way in which we can have peace with him? There needs to be a sacrifice for sins that is perfect and just and fulfills God's law and yet it has to be one that corresponds to the sin that has taken place.
So it has to be a human being who gives himself. Well what human being would be great enough and grand enough to have all these people join to him so that his death becomes their death and his resurrection becomes their resurrection?
The God man. And so that's why the prophecy was that the one who was to be born would be called Mighty God, the Prince of Peace. The death that was, the life that was given on the cross had to be a perfect life that corresponds to what we ourselves had lost in our sin.
And so Jesus had to be like unto his brethren in all things is what Hebrews chapter 2 says. For the life, for him to give his life, he had to truly be a human being. That's why Jesus didn't just come down and just jump on the cross, get over with and leave.
He entered into life, he lived a full life so that not only can my sins be forgiven, but the perfect obedience he gave to the Father can be mine to fulfill his law as well. Okay, I'm going to take my fourth question to follow up on the last one.
You said that Philippians 2 is in contradiction to what Peter said in Acts 2 when he described Jesus as a man. And you heard me say in my presentation, we believe, and I just said that in that last question, we believe Jesus was a man, but he wasn't just a man.
So could you explain to me why, if you're correct, that Peter was contradicting Paul and that I have to somehow, quote unquote, I think, deal with the alleged contradiction. How come Peter says in 2 Peter 1 .1, 2 Peter 1 .1, Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Did you hear what I said? By the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Now this, in the original language, is called a Granville-Sharp construction. Both God and Savior are referring to one person, Jesus Christ.
So Peter identifies Jesus as God and Savior. So could you explain, was Peter contradicting Peter?
All right. Dr. White, you are making things worse for yourself because now Philippians, Paul contradicts Peter and now Peter contradicts himself. See, I can't absorb that because in one case, you say he's God and then he's man.
What is it? It's a case of being a married bachelor? Is that what you're saying? Both. Thank you. Is this my last question? Okay. This is my last question to you. Yep. Okay. If you believe that Jesus was God and we all know that God cannot be tempted, therefore, the temptation of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels was from Satan, according to the Scriptures.
Satan tempted God. The God-man. Let me ask this. Again,.
You will never mount a meaningful argument against a believing Christian until you make the effort to come to understand what we believe. I have spent hours listening to lectures on Tawhid, hours listening to lectures on Hadith sciences.
Why? So that I can understand what you believe. This is a basic teaching that my young people in my church understand by the fourth grade. And for some reason, when we try to talk about this, there is a barrier.
We don't believe that God ceased being God. Jesus was the God-man. The second person of the Trinity took on a human nature. So when Peter says he was a man, he was. And as a man, he could be tempted.
As a man, he ate food. He had to be to be the perfect sacrifice. But when you quote Numbers 23 -19, we are not saying that the fundamental nature of God is that he is a man. What we are saying is God is the creator of all things and he can enter into his own creation if that is the means by which he chooses to redeem his people.
And so until we get past the straw man arguments, we're not going to be talking to one another. So I need you to hear the words of the New Testament when it affirms when Peter doesn't contradict Peter.
Peter says it both. Why don't you believe both things Peter said? Why do you assume guilty until proven innocent? Why don't you assume innocent until proven guilty? Paul and Peter said all the exact same things and what they said is why Christians believe in the Trinity.
Okay, last question, right? Alright, last question. I was ecstatic as much as you can be in a bow tie. I was ecstatic when you said that Isaiah 4310 was one of your favorite verses in the Bible because I knew that Jesus used Isaiah 4310 self-identifying himself as Yahweh in John 13, 19.
So what I'd like to ask you to do is could you explain Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, he knew the scriptures better than you and I know them. I think we'd both agree with that, right? How could Jesus, if he was a mere rasul, take words that were specifically about Yahweh in Isaiah 4310 where Yahweh says before me there is no God formed and there will be none after me and apply them to himself in John 13, 19.
Do words have meaning? We're coming back to this. This is your interpretation of what Isaiah is. Now, he knew everything. It's difficult for me to understand that because regarding the final hour, he said he does not know and he said not even the angels, not the sun, only the Father in heaven.
So your interpretation of Isaiah and then you're trying to link up that he knows everything, seriously, Jesus was not all-knowing. That is my understanding of the way I read the scriptures. But we still come to you interpreting that Isaiah was inspired by Jesus.
I don't believe that.
Thank you. Well, I think that was a quite heated exchange of harpoons from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. I think now it's your turn. Get your boxing gloves up. We're only going to have 15 minutes.
Please, may I urge you, only questions. One question at a time. Can we have one meeting, please? I am going to rule you out of order.
And I'm going to have to make a very firm decision. You may begin. Please tell us who you're directing the question at. Question to Dr. James White. Assalamu 'alaikum, Dr. White. On Monday night, I asked you a question which you didn't answer.
I hope you answer tonight. I did answer it.
Let's not start with a false assertion. You didn't like the answer, but I did answer it.
One John, chapter 5, verse 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That's not what it says. You agree to that? No, sir.
Now we're saying that Jesus... I said no, sir. You said no? Yes. You don't agree to that? Okay, we don't want another debate. Dr. White, I'm going to rule you out of order as much as I'm going to rule the question out of order.
One question, no response until I indicate to you. One question, please. Otherwise, I'm going to ask you.
To sit to the back. Jesus, the God, the human God, has prayed to the Father. Did the Father pray to the God? Because the Holy Spirit... The Holy Spirit says that you can forgive. You can blaspheme against the Father, you will be forgiven.
If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, you won't be forgiven.
Could you answer that? Thank you.
I have no idea what the question was because it started off with 1 John 5, 7. Can I repeat myself? And then it went to the subject of blasphemy.
Okay, just make your question quickly, please. Okay.
The Son can be forgiven and the Father can be forgiven. You mean blasphemy against them. So the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Right. Why? Are you asking me why? Yes. Okay, good. Thank you.
Thank you. The question is about what's called the unpardonable sin, narrated, if I recall correctly, in Matthew 12. Jesus said, in the context of the Jewish leaders who saw His divine power being extended and said, that's Beelzebub, that's Satan.
They accused Jesus of acting by the power of Satan. And Jesus' response was to warn them of the unpardonable sin. And that is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because they were saying that the power by which He did this, who was the Holy Spirit, was actually Satan.
Now what makes that unforgivable? Is it because it's so serious? No. But what it demonstrates is in Christian theology the one that brings conviction of sin is the Holy Spirit. And if you become so twisted in your self-righteousness that you start identifying the Holy Spirit who brings you to conviction of sin as Satan, then you'll never be able to be brought to an understanding of sin and feel conviction of sin.
So it's not the seriousness. It's not that the Spirit is somehow greater than the Father and the Son. It's the role the Spirit plays in bringing about forgiveness of sin. And hence, if you reject Him, then you're cutting yourself off from the very means that God uses to bring you to repentance.
That's why it becomes unforgivable. Thank you. I don't think so.
I don't know. As long as we both have time to do it. I don't think there'll be time for you to respond as much as there'll be time when a question is posed to you for Dr. White to respond. So unless the audience want us to have it in that fashion.
Can you indicate to me if you want Ayub to respond? And then similarly, we have to accord the same courtesy to Dr. White as well to respond. Isn't it? So do you want each one to read but after the response?
No. Thank you. Consensus. You see, democracy works in South Africa, not in America. Next question. Thank you, sir.
Oh, I can say some things about that. Right. My humble salutations and prostrations to you. My name is S .P. Chetty. I'm a justice of the peace and I'm a Buddhist. I've been listening to the debate that went on this evening.
It was a very healthy, very educational one. But the question was, is Jesus God? I say no. Because Buddha is not a god. Somebody mentioned that we pray to Buddha. No, we don't. We pray to God. Now, Jesus has taught only one prayer in Matthew's gospel.
I think it's in chapter six. Just correct me. He said, Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. And it goes on. So nowhere he has mentioned that I am God. Pray to me. Prostrate to me.
No way. So, I vote against that Jesus is not God. Thank you very much. And as a Buddhist. Now, okay. Now, the book of Proverbs says that the first one to state his case seems to be right until his neighbor comes along and examines him.
That wasn't a question. That was a statement. And before I could respond to it and refute it, you were clapping. That means you're not listening to the debate with the right spirit. Okay? If the Christians did that in the reverse, I would rebuke them.
Because you are wrong, sir. Christians were called those who parakaleoed, called upon the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 14, 14, after his resurrection to the Father, If you ask me anything in my name, how can you ask Jesus something today except by prayer?
He did say that we would pray to him. He accepted prayer. He accepted the worship of his people. And when Thomas said, My Lord and my God, he blessed his faith. So the Bible, sir, contradicts what you said.
So all you're doing is saying that you reject the Bible's testimony and you reject revelation. That is up to you to reject. No, I don't reject the Bible. But you need to understand that when Jesus gave the Lord's prayer in Matthew chapters 5 and 6, that wasn't all he gave.
When he prayed to the Father, he said, Glorify me, Father, with the glory which I had in your presence before the world was. Do you believe Jesus said those words? That would be the question that I would ask, but we can't have a debate during Q &A.
Thank you. Okay. Mr. Chetty, no second questions.
I will ask you perhaps to follow the queue again, time permitting. Thank you very much, sir. I have noted Dr. James White's bias because he assumed that it was only Muslims who clapped. Nick? No, no,.
Clapped in response to what was said. Yes. Next question. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. To the doctor. My name is Issa Watson. I'm from Cape Town. Oh. And I would like to just pose one question.
As I've noticed that you said that we Muslims take verses out of context. Yes. Now, coming to the context, you've taken verses out of the Quran also out of context. Which one? The question that I'm about to ask you, it's about John 5, verse 30, 31, and 32.
John 5, verse 30, 31, and 32. Ask. John, verse 30, reads, By myself I can do nothing. I judge Isaiah. As my judgment is judged not of my own will, but by the one who sent me once. Yet Jesus confesses in verse 31, where he says, If I bear testimony of myself, the testimony of myself will be false.
So was Jesus a liar by saying it will be false? Where verse 32 answers verse 30, and 31, where it says, But there is another that bears witness of me, that which he the Father in heaven witness of me is all but true.
Please answer, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Wait a minute.
Before I answer that, a public accusation was made that I took the Quran out of context. I didn't get an answer as to what it was. I'd like to ask, I've only quoted one verse of the Quran tonight. I think under correction it was two.
Under correction it was two. Under two. Two. Two verses out of the Quran. Which one did I quote out of context, sir?
I think the brother has written it out. I must check on my note quick.
I have to make a note of it. So will you withdraw the accusation.
So you can prove it? I would like you first to answer the question on John 5, verse 30, 31, and 32. Thank you. I'll be happy to. But I will point out that the accusation, misrepresentation has failed and needs to be withdrawn.
Just out of fairness. John chapter 5.
Context. Context. Context. John chapter 5 begins with the healing of a man on the Sabbath. And the Jews seek to kill Jesus. Because he called God, his own Father, making himself equal with God. He said, my Father is working until now and I am working.
And the reason the Jews understood that to be blasphemous was because he did it on the Sabbath and the Jews understood that God works on the Sabbath and Jesus was claiming the exact same right to work on the Sabbath that God the Father had.
And so the whole discussion of John chapter 5 is about the unity that exists between the Father and the Son. And Jesus is saying, I'm not some renegade deity out there that is distracting from the worship of the one true God.
I don't do anything of myself. I have been sent by the Father. I'm doing what the Father has willed me to do. But he also does not repudiate the assertion of the Jews that he's making himself equal with the Father.
And he also says, a day is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and when they hear it they will rise from the dead, which every Jew knew was the role of Jehovah God in the Old Testament.
He says, every man before this section of text, every man must honor the Son even as he honors the Father. I must ask you, do you honor Jesus as the Son as you honor the Father? The answer is no. And then in this section, all he's saying is, the Greek term for on my own is ap emaltu, from myself.
That is separate from the Father. His whole point is, he and the Father are absolutely inseparable in John chapter 5. So it is taking John chapter 5 grossly out of the context of the Gospel of John in light of John 1, in light of John 8, in light of John 10, 17, 20.
Even the most radical, critical scholars like Bart Ehrman all recognize one thing, the Gospel of John teaches the deity of Christ. Even Ehrman recognizes that. So, if you want context, I bent over backwards to try to understand the context of Surah 5, verse 116.
And I also think you need to look at the context of John chapter 5 to be more careful with it. Thank you. Next question, please. Assalamualaikum.
Good evening to all. My question is a pretty simple one. Could you get a little bit closer? Okay, can you hear me now? Yeah. My question is a pretty simple one. The concept of the Trinity or what the Christians believe is a concept which only came about 2 ,015 years ago because Jesus was only crucified in inverted commas 2 ,015 years ago.
In all equality, for all purposes of equality throughout the beginning of time, there have been many nations, many tribes that have come before Christ, before Jesus, so to speak. The Christians believe, and you can ask any Christian, any one of my Christian friends, they believe that eternal damnation is guaranteed for anybody who does not accept the belief of Jesus, the belief of Jesus as their savior.
This is what they believe. My question is, before the advent of Jesus, from the beginning of time, because what will happen to all those people who had no idea that Jesus was going to be around 2 ,015 years ago?
One quick correction. It wasn't 2 ,015 years ago. He was crucified in about AD 33, so it's not quite, yeah. And I don't know if that's where the Trinity would originate, but I understand your point, and I'll skip over the rest of it.
What happened to people before Jesus? Well, the scriptural teaching is that salvation has always been by faith in the one true God. If you will read, for example, the Book of Romans in the New Testament, it says that Abraham, who we all look to, was justified by faith in Yahweh's promises.
Genesis 15 .6, when Yahweh said to Abraham, I will make of your descendants a great nation, he establishes the covenant with Abraham there in Genesis chapter 15. It says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
So the point is that when God has revealed himself to men and women down through history, and he has worked this wonderful miracle, which we understand is regeneration. That is, he reaches in, and he takes out that heart of stone, and he gives us a heart of flesh.
He takes us from being God-haters to God-lovers, to where we love God more than we love ourselves. That our response is always one of faith in him. And so he reveals himself, we respond in faith, and that is how anyone is saved, even to this day.
Now today, that includes faith in what God has done in Jesus Christ, but before Jesus Christ, it was in the promises that he made to the fathers, and promises that he made to those who would be faithful to his covenants.
And so, that is how people have always been made right, according to the Book of Romans, according to the New Testament, is by faith in the God who makes covenant with his people, and the holy just God.
Thank you, Dr. White. Just before the next question, I would like to make two observations, please. One is that I haven't seen any Christian from the Christian camp coming up. You want to go home? Is there perhaps a Christian particular I would like to honor the ladies?
Any female would like to ask a question to the Muslim camp? Let's make it a bit exciting. Think about that. I'm going to give you a minute or two while we're going to have a repeat question here. The second observation is that my understanding of Scripture, and perhaps it's not for me to mention this, but just to correct the previous questioner, the concept of the Trinity came in 325 years after Jesus.
That was at the Council of Lucia. Untrue. Untrue. Okay, it's not tonight's discussion of the topic per se.
I need to give you a book I wrote called The Forgotten Trinity, which will absolutely decimate that assertion.
I'm sure Ayyub will, in his summation, probably respond to that, I'm assuming. Nonetheless, next question. I'm back, Dr. White.
Second coming now. I'm sure everyone in this hall believes that God is eternal. And God being eternal, we, or your statement is Jesus, the Son of God. Now we have a character here in the Bible that says the King of Peace, not the Prince of Peace, the King of Peace had no beginning, no end.
He had no mother, no father. And that character, I'm sure you know. Melchizedek. Who would you prefer to be your God? Because as a Muslim, I would rather prefer Melchizedek being my God than Jesus the man being my God.
Thank you.
And that's because you have not bothered to read the book of Hebrews, have you? Because, see, the book of Hebrews is where... I have read every... No, no, don't respond.
Allow Dr. James White to respond now. You've made your point very, very clear and indeed a very good point, may I add. Not to put you down.
Thank you. Unfortunately, it's not a very good point if you've read the book of Hebrews because if you were to be handling... Because you're quoting from Hebrews. It doesn't say in the Old Testament without father, without mother, without genealogy ending at the beginning of days.
That's in the book of Hebrews. And it's in a context. It's in the context of demonstrating the superiority of Jesus' priesthood to that of the Levitical priesthood. And it is saying that there is only one Melchizedek priest and that is Jesus Christ because he has the power of an indestructible life.
It was not a description of Melchizedek. It was a description of the appropriateness of Melchizedek's priesthood which makes Jesus' priesthood superior to that of the Old Covenant amongst the people of Israel.
You are not representing the book of Hebrews properly there, sir. And I just say off the top of my head, I just spent a week teaching Hebrews in Zurich, Switzerland being translated into German. And we focused a great deal of attention upon this.
Answer the question. I did just answer the question. You were quoting from a section and you don't know what the context is and you're reading something into it that the writer never intended to say. There is no competition between Melchizedek and Jesus.
Melchizedek was a picture of Jesus and the greater fulfillment was Jesus. Okay, thank you very much.
Can I respond? No, you cannot respond to that. Thank you. Next question.
Obviously, my question is to... Quiet, please. I can't hear. Good evening, Dr. White. Obviously, my question is directed to you. Okay, so... He's a nice man, honestly. I mean, look at the smile. Come on.
Why is everybody so intimidated? Now, it needs to be resurrected. Okay, my question is...
It's got to do with Luke 6, verse 12, okay? My question basically is, if Jesus is God, why does he pray to God at all?
Okay. God and all. You notice and all. I've explained this this evening and I'm glad to have the opportunity of repeating it. Think with me for a moment. If the Son... If you have perfect communion between Father, Son, and Spirit in all of eternity, and if the Son chooses, out of his great love and condescension, to enter into human experience to provide for us perfect salvation, when he takes on that human nature and lives as a perfect man, a perfect man so that he obeys all of God's laws, so we can have a positive righteousness before the Father, is he going to become an atheist?
Is he going to stop communing with the Father? If he's going to be a perfect man, do perfect men pray? Do perfect men do what the Word of God commands them to do? So why in the world is it a problem that the Son would continue to have communion with the Father unless, against the doctrine of the Trinity, you assume Unitarianism rather than proving it, which is exactly what's going on here?
You must hear what is actually being said. Object to the real doctrine, not to a straw-man representation of that doctrine. That's vitally important, my friends. So why would Jesus pray to the Father?
Because through all of eternity, the Father and the Son had been in perfect communion with one another, and they continued in that way even during his earthly sojourn. Thank you. Next question, please.
Are we not done?
Question for Dr. White. We're just going to finish these questions. That'll be it, because we're past the 15 minutes. Yeah, okay, that's probably going to be the last question now. Okay.
My question is for Dr. White. If the Trinity is such an integral part... Can you speak into the mic, please?
Just lift slightly up. Yeah. If the Trinity is such an integral...
Carry on. If the Trinity is such an integral part of understanding who God was, why has no Israelite prophet before Jesus come and teach the people about the Trinity? And I'm not talking in any vague way, but directly telling people that God is three parts in one.
Thank you. Excellent question.
Thank you very, very much for answering it. The doctrine of the Trinity is revealed between the Old and New Testaments. Why do I say that? The fundamental proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. Oh, there's prophetic verses that are relevant, Isaiah 9, 6, 7, 14, things like that.
Sure. But the evidence, the revelation of the Trinity, does not take place under the Old Covenant. The revelation of the Trinity takes place in the incarnation of Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Think about it. Peter was an experiential Trinitarian. He had walked with Jesus. He stood on the mountain and heard the Father speaking from heaven and saying, this is my beloved Son, and now He's indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
So Peter recognized the three persons. He was an experiential Trinitarian, which is why he said what he said in 2 Peter 1, 1, our God and Savior Jesus Christ. So the revelation of the Trinity takes place between Malachi and Matthew.
So the New Testament becomes a revelation of what God has done in Jesus Christ. So it was not God's intention to reveal this until He does so in the most amazing way in the Carnation when the Word becomes flesh.
So it's not required that someone in Abraham's day confess the doctrine of the Trinity. No one has ever said that it was. What is necessary for salvation is simply to believe what God has revealed. And if Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be, then can you imagine a more amazing affront to God the Father than to reject the testimony He's given of His Son by raising Him from the dead and seating Him in His right hand?
What if God has entered into human flesh and we say, I refuse to believe you? That's an amazing thing. That's an amazing thing.
Thank you. Next question, please, sir. Good evening. My name is Shane, and my question is directed at Mr. Karim. Okay, so in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus is teaching in a building, and it's very packed. And some people want to hear Jesus' teaching, and they bring a friend of theirs, and he's a paralytic, okay?
So he can't walk, and he's on a stretcher. And his friends take him on top of the roof, and they remove the tiles, and they drop the man below. And Jesus, I'm just going to read from Mark 2, and it says this in verse 5,.
And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Son, your sins are forgiven you. But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, and they said, Why does this man speak that way?
He is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins but God alone? In verse 8,. Immediately Jesus, aware in his spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
Which is easier to say to the paralytic, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up and pick up your pallet and walk? Verse 10,. But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.
And if we remember back to Dr. James White's reference of Son of Man, Jesus then said, He said to the paralytic, I say to you, get up and pick up your pallet and walk. And he got up and walked immediately.
He picked up his pallet and went out in the sight of everyone so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, We have never seen anything like this. So my question to you is, If Jesus is not God, how can he forgive sins?
I've been quiet so long, I can't hear myself.
I can't understand how you would believe that Jesus Christ is man and God, and yet only God can forgive sins. Right? And we have this teaching in Islam, and I believe that Jesus Christ was a Muslim, so he would abide by that rule, that if I sin against you, I seek your forgiveness first before I can ask God for forgiveness.
So it's not cast in stone that only God forgives sin. That is not my theology. Maybe yours, but definitely not the Muslim point of view. So if he said, and he actually makes it much more easier, which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven, or get up and walk away?
And he says, your sins are forgiven. It's the same thing. So I can't see the difference.
No rebuttal there. Just because of the last question now, I think I'm going to have to use my discretion because there's no female from the Christian camp which I've requested, and I have to complete the Trinity.
He's done two questions before. I mustn't complete the Trinity. Let me give this gentleman an opportunity. I'll make a decision. Oh, here's a lady coming up. So the Trinity is shut down. Sorry. This is not fair.
I've been saying it. No, you had two chances before.
I want the third chance to complete the Trinity. Please. Let me decide.
Give the lady an opportunity. This is unfair. I'm going to give the lady an opportunity. Firstly, may I congratulate you? You have the courage, ma 'am. Thank you.
How does the Muslim deal with the problem of sin? How does the Muslim deal with the problem of sin? As you know, in Christianity, there's the concept of attainment and the needing for a saviour, and that we can't deal with our sin on our own.
So what does the Muslim do?
Are you familiar with the prayer of the Lord? Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses. It's repentance. Simple.
So I would say that I believe more in the Lord's prayer than you would, because I only need the Lord's prayer for forgiveness of sins, which comes down to repentance. You need the crucifixion for salvation.
I think, based on what you're asking me, I am the true follower of Jesus Christ, not you. Thank you.
I'm at the dilemma here, and it's so enjoyable. Do you agree with me? I'm not sure if we should continue, because the closing statements need to be made. So it's your call. Sorry? You want to continue?
Only two more questions. Okay. Two last questions. That's it. Last question. Last question. You guys agree? Consensus, last?
Two more. Two more. That's it. Two more. That's it. Right. Questions? No. Two more. Two more. Ask your question, please. Thank you. I say this with all respect. Speak in the mic louder, please. Silence, please, if you don't mind.
I say this with all respect, with knowing that when we read our scriptures, that truth is important, and that we need to interpret our scriptures based on the chapter, based on the book, etc. I would like to find out from you, in the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad, he's mentioned four times, and he's never ever mentioned to be the Word of God, the Spirit of God, or having been born of a virgin woman.
Could you please explain to me, why is that so, and why is all those attributes attended to Jesus Christ,.
My Lord and Savior? The question is not relevant to the topic, but I'm going to allow it.
Okay, although the question is not relevant to the subject, but I will answer it, regarding Muhammad is mentioned four times in the Quran, why he's not mentioned as the Word, and he's not mentioned as...
The Spirit. The Spirit. And he's not born from a virgin woman. And it is related to, because I'm speaking of him in a deity form, which I see in the Quran, which would make him God.
Okay, let me see if I can help you out with one section of that, because that is basically multiple questions. With regard to him not being the Word, I think most Christians, in fact all Christians, I don't want to be so bold as to say all Christians, most Christians misunderstand the concept of the Word of God within the context of the Quran.
And even, so I would say that even within the context of the Bible as well, I believe that I am the Word of God. And I believe that you are the Word of God. And similarly, the chairman, Dr. White, Rudolf, everybody else seated in this hall, all of you are the Word of God.
So is the total world population the Word of God. Simply because we believe in a concept, kun faya kun, be and it is. So for example, Dr. White and I were talking, and he says that I'm a very young grandfather.
He's got grandchildren, one is about three years old, and I think there's one after that. And I've got two grandchildren now, one grandchild is just five months old, and my other grandchild is just two months old.
And I didn't know when they were going to be born, and I didn't know that I would have grandchildren. But did God know? Yes. So all of us were eternal with God. So was Jesus Christ eternal with God. But how were we eternal with God?
You were eternal with God. In the knowledge of God, all of us are eternal. Because God knows from now to the day of judgment. He knows how many children you are going to have. He knows how many grandchildren you are going to have.
Don't shake your head. This is the truth. Are you telling me that God does not know? Let me finish. Right? God knows, right to the day of judgment, how many children you are going to have. Grandchildren, great-grandchildren go down.
And He even knows their names. But when the time comes, the word becomes flesh. It's a simple understanding. And how Christians make this just unique for Jesus, I can't understand. So I am eternal with God, so are you.
How are we eternal? In the knowledge of God. We are all eternal with God. And the time comes, the word becomes flesh.
Kun fire kun. Simple. Thank you. Just lift the mic please and speak in the mic.
I have a very simple question. Do you believe that almighty God, the sovereign of the universe, can do anything? No. Can you explain? God does not do stupid things. God cannot create another God like Himself.
God cannot throw you out of His kingdom. Where is God going to put you that does not belong to Him? Simply put, heaven belongs to God, hell belongs to God, so where is He going to put you that doesn't belong to Him?
So God, yes, God can't do everything. He cannot throw you out of His kingdom. God cannot create another equal unto Him because He is God. I think I've answered your question. I'll leave you with this.
I'll leave you with this one thing.
This one thing. No more questions. Thank you very much for that interaction. It was very inspirational. Ladies and gentlemen, we're coming to the final part of the program. Dr. White is now going to give his final summation and we're giving him five minutes to do so.
His closing remarks, followed by Ayub Karim. I'm sorry to see folks going,.
So I'll speak a little bit faster. First of all, thank you very much for staying to the end here. It has been a tradition of mine to give a gift to folks. Last year, I brought this book for Ayub Karim and I forgot to bring it to the debate.
The book I brought for Ayub Karim, I left in my room. So I'm going to give him last year's book this year and maybe next year I'll give him this year's book and next year's book at the same time. How does that sound?
I appreciate the opportunity we've had this evening. Let me, in my closing statement, just make a couple of comments on some of the questions that were asked that I didn't get a chance to comment on. John chapter 18, when the soldiers fall back upon the ground, Ayub Karim responded to that by saying, well, there are all sorts of people who worship Jesus in different ways, but they weren't really worshiping.
That's not what they were doing. They didn't fall back upon the ground and worship. They fell backwards by the divine power of his identification as the I Am. They weren't worshiping him. They were knocked backwards by the glory of the person that they were talking to who said the I Am phrase.
That's what's going on in John chapter 18 very clearly there in the Gospel of John. Did you see what happened in the two questions I asked? He said, well, Philippians chapter 2 can't be saying what Philippians chapter 2 actually says because that would contradict Peter who said Jesus was a man.
And then I point out, we believe Jesus is a man. Philippians chapter 2 says he became a man. And then Peter in 2 Peter 1 .1 calls Jesus his God and Savior. So Peter and Paul both identified Jesus as man and as God.
Why not believe everything they say? Why do you assume that they were wrong? Because you begin with the assumption that God could not enter into his own creation. You're assuming it. You're not proving it.
And none of the New Testament writers agreed. So here's the question. If God sent down the Torah to Moses and he sent down the Injil to Jesus, that's what Surah 547 says. How come what's in the Injil, the only Injil that anyone in Muhammad's day could have even possessed, we have these clear testimonies to the deity of Christ, but there's nothing in the Quran that actually interacts with these claims.
Why? Why? My friends, our peoples have existed side by side for 1 ,400 years now. And today some bad things are happening. Some bad things are happening between our communities. And the only way that we will have peace with one another is if we stop thinking we already understand the other and do some listening.
Do some listening. Most of my people, when I ask my folks, how many of you have read the Quran? One person might always go, parts, parts. And if I were to ask how many of you have read the Bible? Parts.
Parts. That's why our two communities don't communicate very well. We need to lay aside our prejudices and we need to debate openly like we did this evening with respect for one another. Thank you very much for doing that.
Thank you. Thank you for listening. I can't wait for this to be available, for you to go back and review it again. And I challenge you, do it. Check us both out. Look up our references. Because I believe that truth will prevail when it is examined.
You believe the same thing. Let's do it together, shall we? Thank you very much for having me here this evening.
Thank you very much, Dr. White. I'm now going to call upon Brother Eyup to do his five-minute summation. And then we will move the vote of thanks.
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Before I start making my summation, there's actually not much that I want to say except to just point out a few corrections. With regard to Melchizedek, Melchizedek does not refer to Jesus Christ simply because the criteria for Melchizedek is that without beginning, without end, without father, without mother, Jesus Christ had a mother.
Melchizedek didn't have mother or father, so it does not really refer to Jesus Christ. I just wanted to point that out to Dr. James White. Okay, with regard to who will go to heaven, according to the Bible, and I don't want to dampen the spirits of Christians here, but according to Matthew 7, verse 21 to 23, not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the work of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will come to me on that day and say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Have we not in thy name cast out demons and worked wonders? And then Jesus Christ will reply and say, and then I will profess unto them and say, I never knew you.
Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. This is what the Bible says. Jesus Christ, and I was looking at the New International Version, and the King James Version uses the words, the Son, the Son, the Son, the Son, and the New International Version, the one that I use, the leather-bound one, and it says over there in Acts 3, verse 13, in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers has glorified his servant.
They change the word from son to servant. I think they're coming closer to Islam. And then Acts 3, verse 26, when God raised up, although I don't believe that in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but this is what's recorded, that God raised up his servant.
It doesn't read his son. And then again in Acts 4, verse 27, indeed, Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant.
Again, the word has been changed to servant from son. During the time of Jesus Christ and even immediately after the era of Jesus Christ, who did the disciples of Jesus Christ worship? They worshiped God, not Jesus.
The reference is given in Acts 4, verse 24. When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God, sovereign Lord. They said, You made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
This is a pamphlet that was printed by Sheikh Ahmad Dirat. I still carry it around. I find it very important that I should inform Christians about this because I'm just going to read a small bit. London, more than half of England's Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is God, according to a public survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. So there you have it.
You're not obligated to believe that Jesus is God. Your pick. In all that I've presented, I just want to summarize very quickly. Jesus Christ was born, so he cannot be God. Jesus Christ was sent by God, and anyone that he sent is a messenger.
Jesus says not to call him good, only God is good. Jesus prays to God. God does not pray to another God. And Jesus says, I am ascending unto God, which means that he is not God. Jesus was tempted by Satan.
God cannot be tempted. According to Christian theology, Jesus died. I believe that God cannot die. He's sitting on the right hand side of God, so he's not God because he's sitting next to God. And of course, Jesus Christ says he's a human being, but never says he's God.
And finally, I would like to end on this note, and this is an invitation to all Christians, as given to us in the Holy Quran, by God Almighty. And he says, O people of the book, come to common terms. O people of the book, come to common terms as between us and you, that we worship none but God Almighty, and that we associate no partners unto him, and that we do not take lords and patrons from ourselves and worship as gods.
This is my message to you.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for a very eventful evening. We do appreciate the courtesies. We do appreciate your presence. I would like to thank Rudolf, who was very instrumental in communicating with Iqra for this particular challenge.
I would like to thank Dr. White as well for coming all the way from the USA to grace us on our shores. We wish him well and wish you a safe journey, sir. We'd like to thank Ayub and his partner here that assisted him, Abdullah.
We'd like to thank you most of all. And above all, we'd like to thank God Almighty. Please go home. Drive safely. Do ponder about this. Be honest, sincere with yourself. Get a copy. I concur with Dr. White's comments when he said, Review this video again.
It will be on YouTube. Please review it and seek the truth always. Fi amanillah. Go well. Thank you and good night. Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
A word of hope. A call to every woman and man. A light until the end of time. This is Al-Islam. A whisper of peace. Moving through the land. Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hand. A word of hope.
A call to every woman and man. A light until the end of time. This is Al-Islam. A whisper of peace. Moving through the land. Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hand. A word of hope. A call to every woman and man.
A light until the end of time. This is Al-Islam. A whisper of peace. Moving through the land. Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hand. A word of hope. A call to every woman and man. A light until the end of time.
This is Al-Islam. A whisper of peace. Moving through the land. Allah will surely run to us if we hold out our hand. A word of hope. A call to every woman and man. A light until the end of time.