Classic Friday: John Tucker Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

A Pastor’s Ministry, a Father’s Influence, and the Call to Expository Preaching

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and we have a little slogan around here, and that slogan is �Unity at all costs. I was just kidding. The slogan is supposed to be always biblical, always provocative, always in that order.

And so, our goal is to try to be as biblical as possible, and with the �No Compromise� moniker, that�s essentially talk about Jesus since He never compromised, and talk about the cross because both grace and justice, neither of those were compromised at Calvary.

In light of that, I don�t want to compromise. I like to talk to pastors and pick their brains, understand their ministries a little bit more as they minister for the Lord, and today I have the privilege of having John Tucker on the radio.

Pastor John, welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Thank you, Mike. It�s a pleasure. Okay, so how do we meet? Give the listeners how we end up bumping into each other.

Yeah, so I ran into you at the Shepherds Conference last year. I became familiar with the podcast through another podcast and saw you walking into the book tent where most pastors spend their time, and ran you down and introduced myself and said I had enjoyed one of the podcasts you�d done with your son, Luke, and that it reminded me of the time that I�d spent with my dad and talking about some of the things that you guys were talking about.

So you and I spoke and got to know each other, and I�ve enjoyed your podcast ever since.

John, I remember that tent meeting. I think I was holding a bunch of William Perkins books, but I�m not sure. Maybe it was, I don�t know, the shack and Jesus Christ or something like that. Yeah. Your sign copy.

Your pastor in Community Bible Church in, how do you pronounce it, Belloit? Belloit, yeah. Belloit, Ohio. Belloit, Ohio, right. And tell me about your dad. I�d like to learn about you and your ministry, but let�s start off with your dad because you had told me some wonderful things about him, and so what would be beneficial to our listeners to know about him?

Well, my dad was a godly man. He was a minister of the gospel for 40 years in a small town here in Ohio called Hartville, Ohio, a faith Baptist church. And my dad was a theologian, he was an expository preacher, and the unique thing about my dad, Mike, was that he started his ministry off that way when those things weren�t as popular as they are today.

And my dad was a reader, and he always instilled a desire in me to read. He was always giving me books and challenging me to read. I can remember, you know, I was probably old, and he gives me a copy of, you know, The Christian Mind by Harry Bleymeyers or John Murray�s Redemption Accomplished and Applied, which I think was his favorite book.

And he and I would read through those things, work through those issues, he would challenge me to think, and, you know, he was just a great, great father that way. He really modeled that Deuteronomy 6 kind of idea of the dad taking his son under his wing and teaching him theology, and that�s where I learned theology.

I learned the doctrines of grace and learned the priority and the supremacy of Christ in preaching, and my dad was, again, he loved the Lord and was a powerful preacher. And so, in hearing you talking to your son, it just reminded me of the camaraderie and the fellowship and the love that he and I had for each other, our love for the Word and the Lord, and enjoyed those sweet times together.

So it was encouraging to me to hear you talk to Luke that way, because it was really with.

My dad. Amen. And he has gone to glory?

Yes. He went home to be with the Lord in August of 2016. He had a massive stroke and died rather suddenly in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. And I certainly miss him. He and I had great conversations, sweet conversations, and especially just as I was becoming a pastor at that point, he and I would talk and I would call him and ask him questions, and, �Hey, Dad, how do I do this?

What do I think about this? How do you think about this? And how do you work through this issue And just the shepherding that he provided. I didn't go to seminary, so my dad was my seminary. My dad taught a theology class in his home for years, and I can remember sitting on the steps by our living room in our home, and my dad would have these men who would come from miles around, because he was really the only sovereign grace preacher in the area.

And so he would come, he would teach the men systematic theology, they would work through books, they would study God's Word, and I got to listen to that. Of course, his office was in our home, and so his library.

That's how I learned to understand God's Word, to think like a Christian, comprehend what it means to preach and how to present it. So I'm grateful for that.

John, thanks for giving us those memories of your father. I think of many things in light of that, but one would be the faithfulness of God equipping men like your dad and like you, and putting you in places out in the middle of nowhere.

I mean, who would ever hear about some of these people, right? There are some very famous preachers, and of course, I'm not mad at them for being famous, because God, for whatever reason, has given them a platform to go internationally, and so I praise God for that.

But most of the time, pastors are not known internationally, and they just faithfully plant the seed and plow the fields and water the seed, as it were, and God gives the increase, and so it's a testimony to God, the Son, building His Church through men like you and your dad, so that makes me encouraged.

Yeah, that's exactly what he did.

My dad did not have a large church. It was in a rural community, predominantly Mennonite and Amish. So that was a challenge, you know, right out of the gate, and surrounded by, at that point in time, large fundamentalist churches where the doctrines of grace and the supremacy of Christ were not proclaimed, and through the years, my dad was faithful and consistent, and I admire him for that, respect him greatly for it, and you're right.

There are many men like that today still who continue to labor that way, and I'm so grateful for them.

Well, now, because of the worldwide scope of No Compromise Radio, people know about your dad. Oh, that's great. That's fantastic. I certainly appreciate it. What was his name, by the way? William John Tucker.

He went by John. All right. And so if you were to call your dad, hey, Dad, this is John, and I've got some questions for you. Should I preach Judges and Joshua? He would say, sure, and then your next question would be, how should I go about doing that?

Because I know on your website, a lot of Joshua Judges sermons. How's that been so far?

It's been great, actually, and my dad, in fact, he knew that I was doing that because I had talked to him about it, and so he encouraged me to, of course, teach and preach expositionally and to do it verse by verse and to point them to Christ, because the overarching theme ultimately in Judges is that Jesus is better.

You see, the failure of these men, they either die or they have incredible failures in their lives, and it all points forward to the fact that there's going to be one who is not going to fail and who is going to be able to fulfill all these things perfectly.

And so, you know, my dad always said to me, and when I began to fill the pulpit at a young age at his church, his charge to me was always, may they see Christ. And so when he and I spoke about these things, he said, yes, you can certainly do that, but Judges ultimately points you to the insufficiency of man, the failure of man, and the ultimate supremacy and adequacy of Christ.

So that's what we've been doing, and pointing that way.

That's great to hear. So many pastors get, I think, caught up maybe in the minutiae and atomistically are involved with the text, and they don't step back a little bit and see the grand sweep of redemption.

I was talking to a student at the Master's Seminary, one of my DMIN students, even today, and I said, if it was me, I mean, there's a variety of ways to talk about Jesus in Judges, but if I was preaching something about Samson, you know, Samson's dealing with his parents and get me a wife and his illicit relationships and everything else.

Yet amazingly, Samson believed in the Messiah to come. And Jesus, when he did arrive, can you imagine, even on the cross, he is saying, take care of my mother, honoring his mother and certainly his stepdad, and of course, tempted in every way like we've been tempted yet without sin.

And it wasn't Samson's resolve or anything else that saved him. It was trust in the one who was almost exactly opposite of Samson. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, amen. Amen. Well, tell us a little bit about the pulpit, and when I go to your website and I watch the video, I was encouraged, and then you told me privately the backdrop story, and I think it's probably worth talking about, just the kindness of God's people and what they would do for you.

Absolutely. So, the pulpit that I have is my dad's pulpit. And when my dad retired, my mom and he moved to Springfield, Missouri, which is where my mom was from and where my dad went to seminary at BBC down there.

And so they were down there, and my mom had the pulpit in her garage, and unbeknownst to me, a man in our church, one of the other elders, had reached out to my mom about coming down and getting the pulpit and bringing it back to the church.

The pulpit had been built for my dad by a carpenter in his church right after he began his ministry there, and so it was built for my dad, kind of to his specifications. It's a beautiful oak pulpit. And so this man went down and picked it up.

He and his wife drove all the way down to Springfield, Missouri, and drove down, brought it back, and put it in the sanctuary. And so I was teaching Sunday school one Sunday morning and finished up and came and walked into the sanctuary, and there was still my mom and some people, and there was the pulpit.

And I was shocked, to say the least, and it was one of those moments I'll never forget, to be able to have my dad's pulpit. And to be able to use a pulpit, too, that some amazing men have spoken from, stood behind and preached—John Reisinger, Peter Masters, a number of preachers who were preaching grace when grace wasn't popular back in the 70s, the 80s.

It's just a really neat thing to have, and especially the fact that with my dad's pulpit, I get to stand behind it every Sunday and proclaim Christ as he would have me do. It's just a wonderful thing.

And the people were so gracious to me about that. They are kind, loving, and have truly embraced me as their pastor, and I love them deeply and am so grateful for them.

Amen. John Tucker is our guest today on No Compromise Radio. If you'd like to get a hold of John, you can either email me, info at nocompromiseradio .com, or if you go to the website, John's, the Church City Pastor's website, thecommunitybiblechurch .com.

This is not just a particular community, it's the community. The Ohio State University, thecommunitybiblechurch .com. And there's a little... Don't forget that. It reminds me of the story with Alistair Begg, and you know, they were changing the name of the church to Parkside, and it was originally called The Chapel, and he said, every time people asked me, you know, what church do you pastor, and he'd say, not just A Chapel, but The Chapel.

That's right.

We have to make those claims, I guess. I know.

So there's a contact link there, as well, on thecommunitybiblechurch .com. You're married and have three children.

Tell us about your family. Yes, I'm married to Debbie, she's my childhood sweetheart, so let me tell you a little story about that, because my dad is really responsible for that, too. So, we used a carpool to a private Christian school in Canton, Ohio, and my family and my wife's family, and we rode together.

And I remember one day, we dropped, and I looked at my dad, and I said, you know what, Dad, I really can't stand her. He looked at me, and he said, you know what, someday, Johnny, she's going to be a beautiful woman.

You better watch it. And sure enough, that happened, and we've been married now almost 30 years. We have three kids, and more, and Abby and Will, and they're 25, 21, and 19. So, just to have a great family.

I've been very blessed, and love my kids, and one's moved away, my oldest has moved away, she's in Columbus, and my middle daughter, Abby, she's a nanny in Cleveland, and my son's still here with us at home.

I'm very blessed to have a great family, the Lord's been good to me.

Law, Preaching, and the Work of an Advocate

John, we would both agree that God, in a superintending way, not only saves people, but when He calls men in the ministry, He's made them with their own personalities, and influences with environment, and education, and DNA, and everything else to make the person that He has for that particular community, via the church, or in the church, rather.

Tell us about your background as a lawyer, and then, how does that help you? I mean, I'm thinking, analyzing the text, anything but postmodernism, does that help you or hurt you to be a lawyer and a pastor?

Oh no, it helps me, I think, greatly. So, you know, I'm an advocate, so as an attorney, that's what I do. I take an issue for a client, and I advocate for them, and I'm honored to be an advocate for Christ.

And so I really approach it that way. I'm there to persuade, I'm there to present the text, and to do it in a way that's clear and concise. And in law school, one of the things that we learn to do is to analyze something and look at it from the standpoint of what they call IRAC, it's Issue, Rule, Application, and Conclusion.

What is the issue that you're dealing with, what is the law or the rule that applies, how do you apply it to that issue, and what conclusion do you draw? So it's kind of linear that way. And so I kind of think that way when I'm preaching and when I'm teaching, and I try to do it with passion.

So I'm standing in a courtroom, and I'm dealing with an issue, I'm standing in front of a jury or a judge or an arbitrator, and I am there to persuade. And I approach my preaching the very same way. Some people say I sound like a lawyer at times, I guess, but that's okay, because, you know, Peter charges us to be able to give an account for the hope that's within us, that's kind of a legal phrase that he uses there, that apologia, that apologetic type persuasion, and to be grounded and settled in what you believe and to be able to persuade people and to present it clearly, I think is so important.

And it's interesting, you know, what happened, too, is, you know, my dad challenged me to be a lawyer, he encouraged me to pursue the law, but he also gave me opportunities to teach and to preach at his church.

And then several years ago, I heard Steve Lawson preaching, and he made a comment about, you know, a lawyer becoming a preacher, and some references to that, and I began to think about it, and lo and behold, the Lord opened some doors here, and I'm enjoying it very much.

So yes, absolutely, being an attorney, learning how to think that way, to look at things and critique and analyze and to persuade, I think is really a key component of what I'm trying to do.

Well, John, as you were talking about that, I thought of Job chapter 9, for he is not a man as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together. There is no arbiter between us who might lay his hand on us both.

Let him take his rod away from me, and let not dread of him terrify me, that I would speak without fear of him, for I am not so in myself. And Job pleading, of course, Job, the first book written in the Old Testament, and saying, you know what, I just need someone to be my advocate.

And then I'm flashing forward to 1 John 2. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is a propitiation for our sins. And so, those are probably the lawyer's favorite verses, don't you think?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love those. Hey, I've got a question for you, John. How is it, okay, this is a strength of yours. You, I'm certain with a lawyer background, you go to Romans, you go to Galatians, something like that, because you're thinking linearly, as you said, maybe that's a made-up word, but in a linear fashion.

No, that's right, yeah. Then you go to Judges, and it's a narrative. What does a lawyer do there?

You look at the overarching issue, so what's the issue that's being dealt with in the Book of Judges? And what's the overarching principle then that drives the narrative? The narrative points to something.

The narrative points to the fact that people are sinners. The narrative points to the fact that sin can be pervasive and severe, that God is a judge, a God of wrath, and you've got to deal with that aspect of sin.

And so, you take all those pieces and those parts, and you put it together from the standpoint of, okay, this is the God that you're dealing with. This is how He responds to sin. This is how He loves His people.

This is how He is sovereign over everything. This is how He gets involved in the muck of life and takes us out of that, pointing us to Christ and giving us one who is our Advocate, our great Redeemer, Christ.

So that's how I look at it, that's how I approach it. It's not so much about the details of, you know, Shamgar's ox goad and what it was made of, but what was God doing in those situations with those judges, and how was He pointing us to Christ?

So, that's how I approach it, from that standpoint.

Judges, Samson, and the Supremacy of Christ

Amen. We're talking to John Tucker today, John A. Tucker. He's the pastor at Community Bible Church in Ohio, what, an hour south of Cleveland. Good thing you're not talking about sports a lot there, because we might as well talk about, you know, victory in Jesus versus...

Yeah.

We certainly have victory in Jesus, we don't have victory in the Browns.

I know. Well, I was there in Cleveland last August, I think it was their first preseason game or something, and then they said, well, the preseason has yet to start, and the Browns are officially out of contention for the Super Bowl, or something like that.

So I'm sure they're the running joke. I noticed, my wife and I, when we went to the movies the other day to see the Churchill movie, which I wasn't impressed by, but we saw the Churchill movie, and one of the trailers or a poster out front was the new Samson movie.

I'm wondering what the Samson movie will be like. But here's my question. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't preached through judges. When I think of Samson, the old kind of me would think muscles.

When I went to Israel and Jerusalem, I worked out at Samson Gym, and it's this hulking guy, you know. But don't you think it'd be more impressive, the Spirit of God comes on Samson, this guy, he's probably five foot tall and he's skinny, and he's carrying around gates and such.

What do you think Samson's physique was like? We knew he had long hair, that's about all we knew, right?

Yeah, and I think it probably wasn't very impressive, because when you look at the text there's nothing that gives you any sense that anybody was afraid of him, because they saw him. I mean, he was able to do wonderful, powerful things, because the Spirit of God did come upon him.

So I wouldn't think that he would be of anything of note that way, perhaps, I don't know, but that would be my thought, that certainly God was demonstrating his power through him, and perhaps through a vessel that wouldn't have otherwise garnered that kind of attention.

John, I pulled up on the website the time where you preached about Samson's long hair, and it's a sin to have long hair. How'd that go over in the community?

It went over great, yeah. That was the packed house that day. A few of the returns. That is so funny. Are you going to the Shepherd's Conference this year? No, I am not. I'm not able to make it this year.

So, actually going to the Together for the Gospel, which is a big event, and I'm going to be at that one, and then Alistair Begg's Pastors Conference as well, but not able to make it back out. I was going to try, but it just didn't work out with schedule and whatnot.

But I always enjoy it. It's such a great time, a sweet time of fellowship, and the preaching is so powerful and encouraging for us pastors.

Amen. What are you going to do after Joshua?

Most likely going to go to Colossians. Again, that was one of my dad's favorite epistles, to Christ, it's about Christ, and it gives a really clear picture of him and his work and his person, and again, the adequacy of Christ, that Jesus is the best, and our hope in him.

So that's most likely where I'll head next. Okay.

Is there ever a time a Christian should sue another Christian?

That's a great question, and one I've been asked a number of times. So I'll answer it like a lawyer, it depends. So with insurance, Mike, it's interesting because the Lord, by his grace, has provided us means by which damages can be covered without it being something that actually ultimately harms the person.

And so with insurance in place and things of that nature, I have had occasion over my career to be involved in matters where that was in play. Now my encouragement to people is always there is a better way, and let's see if we can do the better way in terms of not actually doing this.

But oftentimes, you know, the thing about suing each other, you've got people who may be, you know, one person may live in Illinois, another one in Pennsylvania, or you get situations where you've got different laws from different states and they're not in the same church and all that kind of thing.

So yeah, I think there are occasions when it can happen, but certainly it's something that ought to be the last resort.

Okay, so if the listener said, well, what about 1 Corinthians 6 and we're not supposed to, what was the particular context there?

Well, in 1 Corinthians 6, I believe that he's speaking to issues that arise within the body of Christ itself. You're dealing with a local New Testament church, you have something that arises between members within that church.

Why would you go to court against your brother in that context when the church has the ability to resolve these things and you should do that? But again, too, there are occasions, and I've had believers who have been in dispute internally within a church, like a car accident or someone's injured some way, and you're not able to deal with the monetary aspect that the damages give rise to.

They could be substantial, depending on the nature of the injuries. A person may have lost their job for the rest of their lives, but they're insured to cover for those things. And so in those situations, the hope would be that the two people could come together under guidance of a pastor and elders in the church and be able to access the insurance and resolve that matter without having to go to court and deal with it that way.

All right, I like the answer. I just, you know, didn't want to have anybody writing me emails, 1 Corinthians 6 says. I know. Yeah, I know.

That's that great question. Well, you know, the other question is, well, how can you be a Christian and be a lawyer? Let alone a pastor, I mean, come on.

Oh, that's so true. Talking to John Tucker today on No Compromise Radio. John, it has a feel to it, when I talk to you, that we're old friends and just comrades in ministry and preaching and teaching and talking about the Lord Jesus, and that's certainly the case.

So thanks for being on the radio show. We'll have you on again. People want to write. It's thecommunitybiblechurch .com. You have a contact and directions there. My last question for you, if people live around Cleveland and they want to drive an hour to come and visit you, they show up on a Sunday morning, what would they expect besides the dance team and the drama ministry?

What else would be going on? Well, there'd be a lot of smoke and lighting, PowerPoint presentations, you know, the standard fair, the things that work. Blue lights. Yeah. Yeah. Lighting and all that good stuff.

No, they're going to hear. We have adult Sunday school class, we have a very robust children's Sunday school program with excellent teachers, and so they would be able to be a part of that, both the children and themselves.

I teach an adult Sunday school class, as does another man in our church, and then they would come into the sanctuary, we would have hymns, we've got a phenomenal piano player, and then they would hear the Word of God opened up and Christ proclaimed powerfully and hopefully persuasively.

Amen.

John, thanks for being on the radio. When I need to get the hello trademarked, I'm going to give you a call. Oh, please do. I'd be happy to do it.

Duck Community Bible Church dot com. Have a great day, John. All right. You too, buddy. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.