Abortion Conflict in Ireland

Can I just answer that one question, though? Do you believe abortion is murder?

Yeah, but I'm not going to say yes. I'm not going to blame the women who do it.

So, it's murder?

I believe that they have been tricked.

Even though the study shows that only about 2 were coerced?

What study? I mean, like, that woman over there, you know, your hair, the blonde hair, the first one, so new for her, like, she didn't want it. Everybody was telling her to do it and convincing her that her life was going to be bad, but she tried to stand up against it and nobody was there.

If I want to murder someone in the real sense, I don't go out going, somebody please stop me. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh no, there's no question.

There's no question.

If you take that stance, you're going to lose the battle.

Can I just say this right now? With respect to you, with respect. I'm the one with abortion in my nation. You're not. And in my nation, your arguments have failed. Hold on, I'm just saying. In my nation, it's legal.

In your nation, it's not. And I'm telling you that your arguments don't work.

Let me tell you this.

You know what the women say?

Let me finish the thought. You know what the women say to me when I'm outside the abortion mill? They walk to the door and I say, ma 'am, please don't kill your child. They turn around and they say to me, they say, after you, I can kill my child if I want.

That's what they say. Are they murderous?

If they believe that they're really killing a baby, yes.

So your argument is, it's only a sin if I think it's a sin?

It's a different context for different people. And you have to take each one. No, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is to change minds and to change hearts. You have to take all of the information and all of the social engineering that they've been put through.

It's not the same as somebody willfully killing another live human being that they can see outside the womb. And you have to do it gently. If you stand there and go murder, you're only going to get the backup.

What if I said this? Because you're actually creating a false picture. We don't scream, you're a murderer. What we say is, you have to say that it is murder because it is.

You said that it was.

But I am saying to you that it's a different social context than abortion is.

Okay, so can I ask you this?

I'll give you a scenario.

Can I give you a scenario? Just a quick question for this scenario, okay? Let's say that we have a society and culture. How do you feel about homosexuality? Okay, let's say we have a society and culture that says homosexuality is okay.

It's a good moral happy thing. Hold on. It's a good moral and happy thing and everybody's doing it. Is it no longer a sin against God because everybody says it's okay and they believe that it is?

The thing about it is, you have to look at the context. We have an enemy who is the father of lies.

Absolutely, we agree on that.

And the father of lies has lied to people. As I saw in a famous film about the guy that played the devil. He said, I don't make anybody do anything. I just cut people's throats. He doesn't put the knife in your hand and say, take that knife.

And he walks over and he convinces you. So the father of lies, right? Lies can be posed as truth as the Bible says. We agree.

But you haven't answered the question.

I have. So what I'm saying is, in this society, right? I can guarantee you now. If you stand and call women murderers that are already being traumatized. I'm not saying excuse their sins. But what you do is, you come alongside them.

We do that.

And you be a compassionate thing.

We do that.

Right?

But if I'm a woman and I walk into the crowd and I just hear you screaming murder. I can be already guilty and I'm going to walk away and feel guilt.

I know.

You sound like you're very influenced by the idea that it's you that changes people's hearts.

No.

Who changes hearts?

God changes people's hearts.

How does he do it?

How does he do it?

Right.

Does he do it?

Does he do it with the truth?

Can I ask you to answer that?

Does he do it with the truth?

The thing about it is, when I knew I was a sinner.

Can I hear you to say a response to that?

When I knew I was a sinner, nobody came up to me in London and said, You're a Turkish rap singer.

Sir, you're creating a straw man. I'm not saying do that.

No, I'm not.

What happened to me was that God showed me I was a sinner.

How?

And then he sent another human being to gently deal with me. I was already down. So I did the last thing I needed.

Can I encourage you? This will fix it right now.

This will fix it.

You're attacking it.

You're beating up a straw man.

No, I'm not.

You really are. You really are.

What I needed, what I didn't need was somebody come along and kicking me.

I didn't.

See, there's the straw man again.

No, it's not. If a woman is down because she's had an abortion, right? And you call her a murderer.

If we say you've murdered your child, you need to come to Christ. So let me ask you a question. If you were in a jail, and there was a man guilty of robbing and assaulting somebody.

What sends people to hell?

Sir, can I just get a...

What sends people to hell?

Our sin.

Murdered child.

Our sin.

Murdered child doesn't send you to hell. Really?

No.

There you go.

So that just shows, I believe in the Bible as a standard. You obviously don't.

No, homosexuality doesn't send you to hell.

Sin does.

No.

And yet Jesus says...

No, it certainly does. I can tell you the text of God's word that says that it does.

I know the text.

Okay, so then you know that...

You don't have the text in here. Murder, abortion, homosexuality, death. Don't send you to hell.

Can I show you the verse?

What sends you to hell is not believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

Because your sins aren't covered.

No, and because you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Because you don't believe, a person doesn't believe.

Your sins aren't covered.

No, because a person doesn't believe that God actually exists.

Everyone believes God exists.

No, they don't.

Romans 1. I'll give you the verse. I'll give you the verse. Romans 1, 18. For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. Can I finish? And unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

For that which is known about God is evident within them, for God has shown it to them. God has shown it.

But they don't believe in God.

They suppress.

They don't believe in God.

Okay.

It says they do.

Well, suppress. But they don't believe in God the way He wants them to believe in. As Hebrew says.

Of course.

For one to believe in God, they must believe that He exists.

Yes.

So people don't believe He exists, they think He might exist.

No, they know. He does.

They suppress the truth.

Romans 1. I just want to encourage you to see Romans 1.

They don't know it for a fact.

Romans 1.

And the thing about it is, when you come to salvation and the Spirit opens the gospel to you, then you become a true believer and then you believe fully with all your heart. Jesus said, you believe in me with all your heart.

For as the man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth. You see, you cannot just confess with your mouth. You must believe in your heart first. You see?

Of course.

So that's what saves you.

Of course.

Yes.

Do you think there's a difference between a banker who has brought his children up morally upright, pays all his taxes, has never stolen anything in his life, has never had an abortion, has never done this, has never done that.

Do you think that there's less of hell for him?

No. Right.

So what sends him to hell?

Can I just, can I say it?

His sin.

What is his sin?

James chapter 2.

But what is his sin?

Sir, can I ask you a question? Do you want to have a conversation or a monologue?

I'm asking you, what's the answer?

It doesn't sound like you want me to answer.

I'm saying...

Every time I try to answer, you cut me off.

What sends you to hell?

Our sin.

What is it?

It could be, I'll give you this, ready? James chapter 2 verse 10. It says, if we keep the whole, whosoever should keep the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he's guilty of all of it.

Okay.

Any transgression against God's law makes us all worthy of hell. What does it matter if you're a homosexual, a murderer, a thief, or a liar?

None of those.

We're all separated.

There is no such thing as none of those.

Why not?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, not even one. None who seeks for God.

I know that.

So that answers your question.

But that's not what sends to hell.

Our sin does separate us from God. It says, your sins have separated you from God. That's what the Bible says.

What was Adam put out of the garden for?

His sin.

No, he...

No.

Yeah, he disobeyed God.

But he took the fruit?

It says through...

Already Romans. 5. It says, through one man's sin.

Was it taking the fruit? Was it taking the fruit that sent Adam out of the garden?

It was disobeying God's covenant. God made a covenant and he said, I'll bless you if you do this. I will curse you if you do this. And so he disobeyed God with a high hand.

Yeah, but where did Adam's sin come in? Was it when he picked the fruit?

It was in his heart first.

Yeah, but was it the actual act of picking the fruit?

It was the heart first deciding to sin against God.

The first thing that Adam did was disobey God. He didn't disobey God. He did disobey God. Would he even sin before that?

Of course, that's what I'm saying. In his heart.

The first thing I know.

By questioning God's word, it was half God.

He didn't believe him.

No, no, that's not in the text.

It is?

No, it's not in the text. It's not in the text. Here's the thing, sir. You're operating... I mean this with a lot of respect to you because you're a brother... You're a brother in the Lord. And you're adding a lot of things to the text of God's word.

When Satan came to him, what did he say?

When Satan?

When half God said.

Did God say?

Yes.

Did God say that when you eat the fruit, you will die?

You will not die.

He said, no, you will not die.

You will become like him.

That was Satan's...

Adam looked at the fruit and thought it was good to eat. And good for nothing. And what did he do? So what did he do? He believed the lie.

Right, and then he sinned against God.

But the first part was, if he didn't believe the lie, he wouldn't have done it. So his first...

Actually, you're incorrect.

Can I show you how you're incorrect?

His first sin was giving his mind over to a murder.

Can I show you how you're incorrect? Can I show you from the text of God's word how you're incorrect? 2 Corinthians chapter 11 says that Eve was deceived, not Adam. Adam just sinned.

She was deceived, of course.

Eve was deceived, Adam just sinned. And you're adding things to the text of God's word to provide protection and cover for those who sin. I'll show you how you're not consistent. Can I show you? Sir, I've allowed you to have a lot of input.

If I could show you an example. As two brothers reasoning, sharpening iron. I don't believe that you would have the same gospel for the thief in jail as you have for the woman who commits abortion. You have two gospels.

Because if you went to jail, I would suggest to you, the man who is in jail for assaulting and robbing somebody, you wouldn't go in and say, Sir, you're not a thief. You're not an abuser. I need to be kind to you, sir, and not remind you of the sin you need to repent of.

You said abortion was murder, but you won't tell them that.

No, no, no, no, no.

The thing about it is, is...

Can you answer that challenge I gave you?

I just told you, I just said it to you, that the context for abortion is different.

God has shown me that.

Who's shown you? God has shown me that.

Where?

In my heart.

In the Bible or your heart?

That the context of the social conditioning...

The Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things.

But the social conditioning, that the pressure that the world has put on women...

No one's questioning that.

Right.

So you must take that into account.

But they still know that it's their child.

You must take that into account when you stand in judgment. I'm not saying...

Go ahead, sir, go ahead.

Sorry, what I'm saying is, okay, there's this pressure on people, but how do you stop babies being murdered?

That's right.

So what you do is, so what you do is, you don't condemn them and tell them they're murderers.

So they're not guilty?

You fight the lie. You fight the lies they've been told.

Okay, sorry, I didn't catch what he was saying.

But he doesn't believe you should call it murder.

You fight the lies...

He says you shouldn't call it murder.

You fight the lies they've been told.

Sure, of course.

No one's arguing you should...

You fight the world's philosophy about children,.

About life itself. We agree, we agree.

You fight the world.

We agree.

The world, what does Paul say? We take down every argument...

Argument.

...that sets itself up against the knowledge of God.

That's right.

We take it captive and make it obedient...

But what do we argue with? We don't call it murder, though.

No, no, no.

So it's not murder.

So what you do is,.

You...

Maybe you should get through to them.

You talk to the women who've done it.

Yes, we do that all the time.

And then you counter it against the world's philosophy, against science...

We do that all the time.

...and they will come to their own conclusion.

We do it all the time.

And they will come to their own conclusion.

And what do you do when they still turn around and they walk in the abortion mill? Because I see it every day.

And then you say to them, then...

Is it murder, then?

...you've been told the truth.

Is it murder, then?

But you've been told the truth.

How come you won't answer, sir? Is it murder, then?

I would have to... I would have to...

I think you see your own inconsistency now.

No, I don't. I would have to have that conversation myself.

Can I tell you that I've seen it at least 200 times?

What I'm saying is, 20 women there, right? And they have an abortion or whatever, or they're thinking about it, or they've done it or whatever, or they're going into the clinic. I will treat each one of them...

Of course.

...individually.

Of course.

And when they come up to me, and I will, as a Christian, I will listen to what they have to say.

Yeah?

And I will speak truth.

Why will you tell them not to do it?

I will speak truth.

I understand. Right?

I'll do it gently...

Of course.

...because I'm aware of the social condition that they've been under...

What will you tell them is the reason not to do it? Yeah, but you haven't said that yet.

You see, don't forget, you have to remember one thing as well. The people most... Like, what did Jesus say? The road is narrow, that leads to salvation and leads to life. A few find it.

You still haven't answered the question.

What do you tell them?

What are they doing wrong? You're doing a lot of... A lot of stuff around the bush, but nothing talking.

Because, you see, I know...

What are they doing wrong?

Because I know that they are already traumatized in their heart.

You're still not answering, my friend.

So I'm not going to stand on their heart. Like, saying you're standing up there, you're going to stand on their heart to crush it.

But do you let them go ahead?

So you would avoid...

You would avoid talking about the sin?

So what do you do?

No, no.

I talk about...

I'm on the...

I've been on the side debating, talking about with guys.

Who are, you know,.

Should I mount you? What do you know? You've no right to say this, whatever. And with a person like that, I'll be strong. But I'm not going to kick somebody who's already down.

No, you...

So this will help you then.

This will help you then. We're not suggesting that. But what we are suggesting is that we talk about it the way the Bible does.

No, but...

You don't believe that?

When I heard those women talking and then heard your friend there talking and saying the word...

Say that it's murder.

Like, ah, stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop.

So you don't want to talk about the way the Bible does? You want to try a different strategy?

No, no, no.

If I can say, there's a pro-life march on the 1st of July, I don't know about you, but there are two.

In the foyer to my left. I'm sorry? They're not born in their babies in the foyer to my left. They're not going here, take my baby,.

Born into a foyer.

Oh, they are?

No, they're not.

Because why do they say that?

Why do they say?

Now listen, you have to give me this, Grace. It's legal in my country. I face it every day.

I know.

It's not in yours. So let me tell you as a brother what is coming for you. Because you won't talk about it consistently.

I know it's coming.

I lived in London.

Let me tell you what they... I already told you.

I already told you. Two women had abortions for me.

Okay, I understand, but I'm saying in Ireland, I'm telling you to get ready for what you're going to hear.

This is what you're going to hear.

Two women had abortions for me and my heart was calling.

And I said,.

I'll take the baby, but I don't want you.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I didn't rape them.

I had sex.

Casual sex. So I said to one of them, I'll take the baby,.

But I don't want you. If you don't want the baby,.

I'll take it. She made a choice to get rid of it,.

And I was like,.

Well, that's your business.

And what happened?

That was my heart then. But what did I see? Because I believed the scientific knowledge at the time.

I understand.

I was a biker.

I understand.

That they were lower selves.

And that the baby wasn't alive. Let me tell you, when you brought up...

Did you see what I'm saying?

You brought up Molek.

Did you see what I'm saying?

No, I do, I do, but it's...

So put yourself in my position as a person of the world then.

Sir.

Did I think I was more than a baby?

Sir, here's what I want to...

No, I didn't.

You're doing a lot of getting off the course here. I just want to stay on one point. So here's the point I want to make to you. You said they're not just sacrificing their child to Molek.

No, they're not.

Okay.

What was the promise of Molek to the people that sacrificed their babies?

Your life will be easier.

You'll have a good crop. You'll have money, right? What do the women believe as they walk into a Planned Parenthood? I'm going in here because I'm not finished with school. I want to have money. I'm not ready for a baby.

And so they sacrifice their child.

It's a huge difference.

No, it's the same reasoning.

For a start off, women were carrying in a live, kicking, screaming baby.

And now it's in the protection.

Of the womb.

That's what they were doing. But to these women and society today, they've had to deal with science and philosophy that's telling them...

All science says that it's a human.

No, no.

It says it in secular books.

They don't say that.

It certainly does. All modern science says that. It's a human from conception.

Not all scientists.

Oh, it certainly does. There isn't a...

Let me say this.

There isn't a... I challenge you on that. There is no biological textbook in the last 30 years that says that it's not a human being. There isn't, sir. Not one. You haven't read one because it doesn't exist.

You've read pro-choicers.

Who have argued it's not a child. But you've never read a scientist say, you have not, that it's not human. It's by nature human.

The whole argument is that it's a beet. There's a life. There's life there like a plant grown. But it's not human.

No, no.

They don't argue it's not human. They argue it's not a child. There's a difference.

But same thing.

They say it's not a person.

But same thing.

Right. It's not the same thing.

Are you saying that you'll be happy partly for to reveal the age? No, no, no. You're just saying no, sorry. You're just saying you have to answer. It's how you approach it.

I want to say this. We're going to have to go.

I will say this to you.

And I mean this with love to you. I mean this with love to you. The way that you're approaching it. I mean this with love and humility.

You will fail.

Because it's not about the gospel. It's not about the gospel.

It is about the gospel.