Abortion Conflict in Ireland

Apologia Studios

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Can I just answer that one question though? Do you believe abortion is murder? Yeah, but I'm not going to say yes.

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I'm not going to blame the women who do it. So it's murder. Because I believe that,

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I believe that they have been tricked. Even though, even though the study shows that only about 2 % were coerced.

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What study? I mean, like that woman over there, you know, your hair, the blonde hair, the She didn't want it.

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Everybody was telling her to do it and convincing her that her life was going to be bad. But she tried to stand up against it and nobody was there.

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You know, if I wanted to murder someone in the real sense, I don't go out going, somebody please stop me.

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Do you know what I'm saying? Oh no, there's no question. Wait, there's no question.

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Can I just say this right now? With respect to you, with respect.

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I'm the one with abortion in my nation. You're not. And in my nation, your arguments have failed.

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Hold on, I'm just saying. In my nation, it's legal. In your nation, it's not.

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And I'm telling you that your arguments don't work. Let me tell you this. You know what the women say? Let me finish the thought.

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You know what the women say to me when I'm outside the abortion mill? They walk to the door and I say, ma 'am, please don't kill your child.

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They turn around and they say to me, they say, after you, I can kill my child if I want. That's what they say.

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Are they murderous? If they believe that they're really killing a baby, yes.

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So your argument is, it's only a sin if I think it's a sin? What I'm saying is, it's a different context for different people.

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And you have to take each one's... What I'm saying is, to change minds and to change hearts, you have to take all of the information and all of the social engineering that they've been put through.

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It's not the same as somebody willfully killing another live human being that they can see outside the abortion mill.

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Yes, and you have to do it gently.

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If you stand there and go murder, you're only going to get the back up. What if I said this?

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What if I said this? Because you're actually creating a false picture. No. We don't scream, you're a murderer.

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We don't scream murder. What we say is, you have to say that it is murder because it is. No, no. But you said that it was.

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But those women, yeah, but I am saying to you that it's a different social context than abortion is.

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It's grown up. Okay, so can I ask you this? It's grown up being informed, wrongly informed.

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Right, right. I'll give you a scenario. Can I give you a scenario? Just a quick question for this scenario, okay?

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Let's say that we have a society and culture. How do you feel about homosexuality? I'm against it.

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Okay, let's say we have a society and culture that says homosexuality is okay, it's a good moral, happy thing.

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Hold on. It's a good moral and happy thing and everybody's doing it. Is it no longer a sin against God because everybody says it's okay and they believe that it is?

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The thing about it is, you have to look at the context. We have an enemy who is the father of lies, okay?

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Absolutely. We agree on that. And the father of lies has lied to people. I saw in a famous film about the guy that played the devil.

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He said, I don't make anybody do anything. I just convince people. He doesn't put the knife in your hand and say, take that knife.

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And he walks over with the knife and he convinces you. So the father of lies, right? Lies can be posed as truth, as the

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Bible says. We agree. But you haven't answered the question. I have. So what I'm saying is, in this society, right,

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I can guarantee you now, if you stand and call women murderers that are already being traumatized,

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I'm not saying excuse their sins, but what you do is, you come alongside them. We do that.

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And you bring a compassion to them. We do that. Right? No, but if I'm a woman and I walk into the crowd and I just hear you screaming murder,

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I can be already guilty and I'm going to walk away and feel worse. I know. You sound like you're very influenced by the idea that it's you that changes people's hearts.

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No. Who changes hearts? God changes people's hearts. How does he do it? How does he do it? Right. Does he do it?

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Does he do it with the truth? Can I ask you to answer that? Does he do it with the truth? The thing about it is, when I knew

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I was a sinner. Can I hear you just say a response to that? When I knew I was a sinner, nobody came up to me in London and said,

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Sir, you're creating a straw man. I'm not saying do that. No, I'm not. What happened to me was that God showed me

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I was a sinner. How? And then he sent another human being to gently deal with me.

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Okay. Because I was already down. So I did the last thing I needed. Can I encourage you? This will fix it right now.

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This will fix it. You're attacking it. You're beating up a straw man. No, I'm not. You really are. You really are.

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What I didn't need was somebody coming along and kicking me. I didn't. See, there's the straw man again.

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No, it's not. If a woman is down because she's had an abortion, right? And you call her a murderer.

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If we say you've murdered your child, you need to come to Christ? So let me ask you a question. If you were in a jail, and there was a man guilty of robbing and assaulting somebody.

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What sends people to hell? Sir, can I just get a... What sends people to hell? Our sin. Murdered child. Our sin. Murdered child doesn't send you to hell.

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Really? No. There you go. So that just shows... I believe in the Bible as a standard. You obviously don't.

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No. Homosexuality doesn't send you to hell. Sin does. No. And yet Jesus says...

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No, it certainly does. No, it doesn't. I can tell you the text of God's word that says that it does.

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I know the text. Okay, so then you know that... Murder. Abortion.

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Homosexuality. Death. Don't send you to hell. Can I say the verse? What sends you to hell is not believing that Jesus is the

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Son of God. Because your sins aren't covered. No. And because you don't believe that Jesus is the

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Son of God. Because you don't believe a person doesn't believe... Your sins aren't covered. No, because a person doesn't believe that God actually exists.

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Everyone believes God exists. No, they don't. Romans 1. I'll give you the verse. I'll give you the verse.

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Romans 1 18. For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. Can I finish?

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And unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For that which is known about God is evident within them, for God has shown it to them.

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God has shown it. But they don't believe in God. They suppress. They don't believe in God. Okay. It says they do. Well, suppress.

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But they don't believe in God the way he wants them to believe in. As Hebrew says.

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Of course. For one to believe in God, they must believe that he exists. Yes. So people don't believe he exists, they think he might exist.

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No, they know he does. They suppress the truth. Romans 1. I just want to encourage you to see Romans 1. They don't know it for a fact.

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Romans 1. And the thing about it is, is when you come to salvation and the spirit opens the gospel to you, then you become a true believer and then you believe fully with all your heart.

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Jesus said, you believe in me with all your heart. For as the man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth.

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You see, you cannot just confess with your mouth. You must believe in your heart first. You see?

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Of course. So that's what saves you. Of course. Yes. Do you think there's a difference between a banker who has brought his children up morally upright, pays all his taxes, has never stolen anything in his life, has never had an abortion, has never done this, has never done that.

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Do you think that there's less of hell for him? No. Right. So what sends him to hell? Can I just, can

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I say it? What sends him to hell? His sin. What is his sin? James chapter 2. But what is his sin? Sir, can

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I ask you a question? Do you want to have a conversation or a monologue? I'm asking you, what's the answer? It doesn't sound like you want me to answer.

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I'm saying. Every time I try to answer, you cut me off. What sends you to hell? Our sin.

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What is it? It could be, I'll give you this. Ready? James chapter 2 verse 10. It says, if we keep the whole, whosoever should keep the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he's guilty of all of it.

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Okay. Any transgression against God's law makes us all worthy of hell. What does it matter if you're a homosexual, a murderer, a thief, or a liar?

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None of those. We're all separated. There is no such thing as none of those. Why not? All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

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There is none righteous, not even one. None who seeks for God. I know that. So that answers your question.

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But that's not what sends us to hell. Our sin does separate us from God. It says your sins have separated you from God.

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That's what the Bible says. What was Adam put out of the garden for? His sin. No, he, no.

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Yeah, he disobeyed God. But he took the fruit? It says through, already Romans 5. It says through one man's sin.

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Was it taking the fruit? Was it taking the fruit that sent Adam out of the garden? It was, it was disobeying

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God's covenant. God made a covenant and he said, I'll bless you if you do this. I will curse you if you do this.

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And so he disobeyed God with a high hand. Yeah, but where did Adam's sin come in? Was it when he picked the fruit? It was in his heart first.

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Yeah, but was it the actual act of picking the fruit? It was the heart first deciding to sin against God.

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The first thing that Adam did was disobey God. He didn't disobey God. He did disobey

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God. Would he even sin before that? Of course, that's what I'm saying. In his heart. The first thing I know. By questioning

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God's word, it was half God. He didn't believe him. No, no, that's not in the text.

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No, it's not in the text. It's not in the text. Here's the thing, sir. You're operating, I mean this with a lot of respect to you, because you're a brother in the

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Lord. And you're adding a lot of things to the text of God's word. When Satan came to him, what did he say?

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When Satan? When half God said. Did God say? Yes. Did God say that when you eat the fruit, you will die?

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You will not die. You will not die. You will become like him. That was Satan's. Adam looked at the fruit and thought it was good to eat, and good for nothing, and what did he do?

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So what did he do? He believed the lie. Right, and then he sinned against God. The first part was if he didn't believe the lie, he wouldn't have done it.

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Actually, you're incorrect. Can I show you how you're incorrect? Can I show you how you're incorrect?

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Can I show you from the text of God's word how you're incorrect? 2 Corinthians 11 says that Eve was deceived, not

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Adam. Adam just sinned. Eve was deceived.

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Adam just sinned. And you're adding things to the text of God's word to provide protection and cover for those who sin.

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I'll show you how you're not consistent. Can I show you? Sir, I've allowed you to have a lot of input. If I could show you an example.

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As two brothers reasoning, sharpening iron. I don't believe that you would have the same gospel for the thief in jail as you have for the woman who commits abortion.

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You have two gospels. Because if you went to jail, I would suggest to you, the man who is in jail for assaulting and robbing somebody, you wouldn't go in and say,

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Sir, you're not a thief. You're not an abuser. I need to be kind to you, sir, and not remind you of the sin you need to repent of.

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You said abortion was murder, but you won't tell them that. No, no, no, no, no. The thing about it is, is...

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Can you answer that challenge I gave you? I just told you, I just said it to you, that the context for abortion is different.

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God has shown me that. Who's shown you? God has shown me that. Where? In my heart.

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In the Bible or your heart? That the context of the social conditioning... The Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things.

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...but the social conditioning, that the pressure that the world has put on women...

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No one's questioning that. Right. So you must take that into account. But they still know that it's their child. You must take that into account when you stand in judgment of abortion.

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I'm not saying... Go ahead, sir, go ahead. Sorry. What I'm saying is, okay, there's this pressure on people, but how do you stop babies being murdered?

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That's right. So what you do is, so what you do is, you don't condemn them and tell them they're murderers.

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So they're not guilty? You fight the lie. You fight the lies they've been told.

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But he doesn't believe you should call it murder. He says you shouldn't call it murder. You fight the lies they've been told.

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Sure, of course. No one's arguing you shouldn't. You fight the world's philosophy about children.

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We agree. You fight the world. We agree. What does Paul say? We take down every...

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Argument. ...argument that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. That's right. We take it captive and make it obedient...

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But what do we argue with? We don't call it murder, though. No, no, no. So it's not murder. So what you do is, you...

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Maybe to get through to them. You talk to the women who've done it. Yes, we do that all the time.

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And then you counter it against the world's philosophy, against science...

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We do that all the time. ...and they will come to their own conclusion. We do it all the time. They will come to their own conclusion.

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And what do you do when they still turn around and they walk in the abortion mill? Because I see it every day. Then you say to them, then...

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Is it murder, then? ...you've been told the truth. Is it murder, then? But you've been told the truth. How come you won't answer, sir?

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Is it murder, then? I would have to... I think you see your own inconsistency now.

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No, no, no, no, I don't. I would have to have that conversation myself. Can I tell you that I've seen it at least 200 times?

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What I'm saying is, 20 women there, right, and they have an abortion or whatever, or they're thinking about it, or they've done it or whatever, or they're going into the clinic,

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I will treat each one of them... Of course. ...individually. Of course. And when they come up to me, and I will, as a

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Christian, I will listen to what they have to say. Yeah? And I will speak truth.

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Why will you tell them not to do it? I will speak truth. I understand. Right? I'll do it gently...

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Of course. ...because I'm aware of the social conditioning that they've been under... What will you tell them is the reason not to do it?

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Yeah, but you haven't said that yet. You see, don't forget, you have to remember one thing as well. The people most... Like, what did

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Jesus say? The road is narrow, that leads to salvation, or leads to life. A few find it. You still haven't answered the question.

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What do you tell them? What are they doing wrong? You're doing a lot of... A lot of stuff around the bush, but nothing talking.

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Because, you see... What are they doing wrong? Because I know that they are already traumatized in their heart.

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You're still not answering, my friend. So I'm not going to stand on their heart. By saying you're standing up there, you're going to stand on their heart and crush it.

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But do you let them go ahead? So you would avoid talking about the sin? So what do you do?

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No, no. I talk about... I'm on the... I've been on the side debating, talking about with guys who are...

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You know, shut your mouth, you. What do you know? You've no right to say this, whatever. And with a person like that,

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I'll be strong. But I'm not going to kick somebody who's already down. So this will help you then.

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This will help you then. We're not suggesting that. But what we are suggesting is that we talk about it the way the Bible does.

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No, but when... You don't believe that. When I heard those women talking and then heard your friend there talking and saying the word murder...

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Say that it's murder. Like, ah, stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop. So you don't want to talk about the way the Bible does?

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You want to try a different strategy? No, no, no, no. If I can say, there was a pro -life march on the 1st of July.

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I don't know about you, but there were two. in the foyer to Melech. I'm sorry?

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They're not born in their babies in the foyer to Melech. They're not going here to take their baby born into the foyer to Melech.

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Oh, they are? No, they're not. Because why do they say... Now listen, you have to give me this grace.

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It's legal in my country, I face it every day. I know. It's not in yours. So let me tell you as a brother what is coming for you, because you won't talk about it consistently.

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I know, I lived in London. Let me tell you what they... Let me... I already told you, two women had abortions for me.

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Okay, I understand, but I'm saying in Ireland, I'm telling you to get ready for what you're going to hear. This is what you're going to hear.

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Two women had abortions for me and my heart was cold and I said, well, if you... I said, I'll take the baby but I don't want you. Yeah, yeah.

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I didn't rape them. Right. So I said to one of them, well,

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I don't want you, but if you don't want the baby, I'll take it. She made a choice to get rid of it and I was like, well, that's your business.

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What happened? That was my heart then. But what did I see? Because I believed the scientific knowledge at the time.

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I understand. I was a biker. I understand. That there were a lot of cells and that the baby wasn't alive. Let me tell you, when you brought up Molek...

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Do you see what I'm saying? I know, I do, I do, but it's... So put yourself in my position as a person of the world then.

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Sir. Did I think I was more than a baby? Sir, here's what I want to... You're doing a lot of getting off the course here.

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I just want to stay on one point. So here's the point I want to make to you. You said they're not just sacrificing their child to Molek.

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No, they're not. Okay. What was the promise of Molek to the people that sacrificed their babies? Your life will be easier.

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You'll have a good crop. You'll have money, right? What do the women believe as they walk into a

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Planned Parenthood? I'm going in here because I'm not finished with school. I want to have money.

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I'm not ready for a baby. And so they sacrifice their child. No, it's the same reasoning.

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And now it's in the protection of the womb. All science says that it's a human.

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It says it in secular books. It certainly does. All modern science says that.

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It's a human from conception. Not all scientists. Oh, it certainly does. There isn't a bio...

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Let me say this. There isn't a... I challenge you on that. There is no biological textbook in the last 30 years that says that it's not a human being.

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There isn't, sir. Not one. You haven't read one because it doesn't exist.

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You've read pro -choicers who have argued it's not a child. But you've never read a scientist say, you have not, that it's not human.

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It's by nature human. No, no, they don't argue it's not human.

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They argue it's not a child. There's a difference. They say it's not a person. Right. It's not the same thing.

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It's hard to answer. It's hard to answer. I want to say this.

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We're going to have to go. I will say this to you and I mean this with love to you. I mean this with love to you. The way that you're approaching it.

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I mean this with love and humility. You will fail. Because it's not about the gospel. It's not about the gospel.

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No, it's not. You won't talk about sin. You won't talk about repentance and faith.

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I was asked to speak at an LGBT same -sex marriage thing, right?

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And to my shame I chickened out in the end because I was going to speak up against this big heavyweight who's well -known in Dublin.

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He's in the government. He's actually in the Senate. And I kind of got afraid. Like Niger against David Norris slays the prophets of Baal and then he runs away from Jezebel and hides.

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What happens in there? He just took on 400 prophets called for a damn man and then he runs away. So the same thing happened to me.

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But I went anyway to the debate and I ended up talking to two guys who got married in America, right?

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And they're sitting there in front of me and they're going Are you voting? Yeah. And I said no. And one fellow said

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Why not? And like in his gay voice And I said Because I don't believe in it.

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And he said What? And he was all indignant. And he said Why are you here? And I said Because I'm against it.

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And he was like Oh, you're terrible. And I said Why? I said I have beliefs. So I said

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I have beliefs that will not let me vote for it. So he said So what's your beliefs then? So we got talking.

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Okay? For about a half an hour and his partner or whatever didn't want to know any of it.

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But he listened. And I know that in my heart I felt a compassion for him that I never felt for him now.

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Sure. I never mentioned homosexuality once to him. Never.

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Not once. And I never said what you're doing is wrong. And I never said anything about gay marriage.

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And I never said But I'll tell you what I did do. I brought him through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

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Yeah? And told him that God had made us and that human beings we've spat in His face.

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We've turned away from Him. We go our own way. I brought him to the harsh things in the Bible. Didn't pull any punches.

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Which harsh things? I said You know I said in the Bible I said see people so misunderstand God. I said

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They say He's cruel. They say He's hard. They say He's bloodthirsty. I said you know what?

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I said you will find in the Bible where God told the king to go into that village and kill everything that moves.

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Leave nothing alive. The men, the women, the children, the babies, everything. Kill them. Put them to the sword.

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And I said But nobody asks the question why He did that. Instead of saying

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He's murderous and He's this and He's cruel I said no one says Well if there is a

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God who I don't necessarily believe in why would He do that? And the guy says

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Yeah He says you'd have to ask why wouldn't you? So I said So don't let me

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I'm not going to sit here and tell you that God does not take vengeance on people. That God does not punish.

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That God I said He will. I said and in the end I said He will kill everybody. That's against Him.

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I said so trying to make Him out to be this soft lovey -dovey He has love and compassion to the depth that we don't understand but in the end

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He goes enough. Do you think? So what I'm saying is by the end of the conversation

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I knew in my heart that His homosexuality was not sending Him to hell.

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Yes the Bible says the homosexual will not inherit the Kingdom of God but you see what's sending

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Him to hell what was sending me to hell what made me sin in London and life and sleep with women and take drugs and abuse myself and all that was because I did not have a saving belief in Jesus a saving belief in God and all of those other things they're only symptoms of a deeper sin which is

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I am my own boss and that guy what changed him and I knew it with all my heart is an encounter with Christ.

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Of course. But how do you have an encounter with Christ if you don't talk about sin? Oh no no I told

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Him that we are selfish we do what we want to do He understood that. So you mentioned selfishness and autonomy but you refused to mention homosexuality.

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No no no the thing about it was it sounds like you don't want to address issues of sin. No no I talked about myself and told

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Him about myself. But you're not courageous enough to talk about sins that are in front of you. So at the end of the day

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He just wanted to talk to me. Yeah I think it's wonderful to be gracious and respectful you needed to do that.

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At the end of the day after the debate was over I went up to Him and I said listen

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I just feel I should give you my number I said I just you know He told me about his own life

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He told me he was he was troubled all the time he didn't sleep and all this and he really opened up and he knew what

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I was talking about he knew I explicitly said That's wonderful that people are going to that people the thing they do is that they don't care about God and they don't believe in Jesus that He died for our sins for our selfishness

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So you mentioned some sins but not homosexuality and you won't talk to a woman who has an abortion about murder

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Oh sure it is it says in the Bible it says I'll give you the verse yeah it says because of these things the wrath of God is falling but you won't say that but you just said you won't you just it sounds like you've set up a man -made standard about how you should preach the gospel

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I just want to encourage you to hear one word from me and then I have to go you've created you've created a good good

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I think I think you're I think I think you're yeah what's that oh my goodness it's like Jesus is up to come to you to visit me personally that's wonderful that you're gracious and loving sir you don't want to talk you don't want to speak you don't want to speak

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I'm literally stuttering I can't even get a word in with you I'm done it was great talking to you it was great talking to you okay so you show more grace just now you were talking about how loving you were with a homosexual and then you stepped all over me and didn't let me speak and when

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I raised my hand to shake your hand you wouldn't even shake it no you took it back I'll shake your hand no no I held it there and you ignored it on purpose he's talking he's probably talking to someone so I just want to I just want to encourage you it seems as though maybe

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I'm wrong only you and the Lord know it seems as though you would condemn Jesus Paul Peter and Jude hold on for their methodology of pointing out sin where they see it because you say it doesn't matter you never talk about sin you just let people know this other thing like for example when you said about the person committing abortion you say don't talk about the sin of murder

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I believe it's murder but don't say it's murder and when you brought up an example of a homosexual you said I won't bring up homosexuality but you do bring up selfishness and pride you talk about those sins you shouldn't to be consistent you shouldn't even talk about those sins

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I think that it shows you're not courageous I'm not no no no no no I'm not talking about not calling sin what it is

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I'm talking about your methodology so which I think that look it what if I'm offended by it because when you stood when that guy stood there and said murder murder murder after what the women said tonight did you not hear them

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I heard them I'll tell you what that was that was clanging cymbals and clashing gongs because you mentioned the sin no the way you did it so Paul no the way you did it so when you mentioned it's murder no the way you did that the way your friend did that tonight he said it's murder it's murder and you need to call it murder that was clashing gongs and clanging cymbals because he mentioned murder in this context okay so when you talk to somebody about Christ and you say you're selfish that's clashing gongs

27:46

I don't say anybody's selfish okay so when you mention any sin selfishness or pride what did Jesus say to the woman that he brought can you respond to what now the woman dragged him into adultery no no no

28:01

I know the text she was are you saying that no one's suggesting that again you're beating up a straw man you are can

28:13

I tell you what he said can I tell you what he said can I tell you what he said he said in Ireland if you're gonna fight against this legislatively you have to call it what it is or you can't legislate against it if it's not murder legislators have nothing to legislate against yeah that's right but listen well you know that march last

28:35

July some old women showed these protesters and someone said they look savage yeah these protesters they showed a poster

28:43

I think yes it probably said abortion stops a beating heart yes these animals yes they tore it up yes

28:52

I mean they didn't want to know I think that's what this man is saying legislators can't I gotta go legislators brother they can't legislate against something you think is icky no no no they can only legislate against it if it's a moral failure

29:06

I'm on your side I believe it you don't believe it's murder no no no I didn't say that what did

29:13

I say to you but you won't call it murder no no no I said your methodology is wrong so in a legislator would you call it murder it sounded cold would you call it murder in the legislature would you call it murder in the legislature it's a very large statute depends on the context of who

29:28

I was talking to and this is where you'll fail this is where you'll fail brother I'm not going to stand there amongst the crowd of women that have had that are the protester so you've created a man -made standard or that have had abortions and condemned them no you've created a man -made standard no no the only way a woman who's had an abortion will experience the grace of Christ if she recognizes the sin that she's committed in her whole life of course but if a woman denies that she's actually murdered her child do you think she could be saved why do you think that they're sad

30:00

I know that just don't make it yes that's why you don't need to tell them so what you're saying is that you've created a man -made standard that says in this context you can call it what it is but in this context no

30:12

I just want to encourage you to consider that just consider it we do have to go if I met a guy tomorrow and he told me he's after sticking a knife in a guy or his brother or his neighbor and he said listen

30:26

I lost my head and I stuck the knife in him and I watched him die I'd say you're murdered but babies babies don't deserve that same justice no because can

30:37

I say this it demonstrates that you don't believe the baby is truly human no no no I've gone to great pains to tell you but it's an inconsistency the social context of what information people have been given can

30:51

I encourage you to look at one study two centuries about abortion I'll encourage you to look up one study look up the study that was done by a sorry look at the study that was done that asked the question to women who've had abortions whether they were coerced into it or whether they did it knowing what they were doing and by their own choice the 2 % only 2 % were coerced so your argument belies the very facts 98 % of them said that they knew what they were doing and it was their own decision 98 % you're saying all of them don't know those studies show that your facts are wrong brother and all

31:43

I'm calling you to listen this isn't my country all I'm calling to I'm pleading with you as a brother in a nation where it's legal be consistent but you see the thing about it is you can't

31:54

I'm telling you now standing and preaching the gospel and calling murder in pro -life rallies

32:00

I'm telling you it's not going to work so don't preach the gospel no no I'm not saying I'm not saying you just said that I preach the gospel

32:06

I preach on the street so the gospel is not the power of God for salvation yeah of course I preach the gospel on the streets so is it the power of God for salvation at pro -life rallies pick your time is it is it the power of God for salvation