March 25, 2021 Show with David J. Engelsma on “Spousal Abuse in the Reformed Community”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 25th day of March 2021 and I am thrilled to have back on the program by popular demand one of my favorite guests truly one of my most knowledgeable and brilliant and biblically informed guests his name is

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David J Engelsma and he is an author professor of dogmatics and old testament studies for over 20 years at protestant reform seminary in Granville Michigan an emeritus professor since the synod of 2008 he is the he was the editor of the standard binder bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002 and he is a lecturer a preacher touring in north america and throughout the british isles on behalf of the british reform fellowship which is devoted to the spread and defense of the reform faith in the united kingdom today we are addressing a very controversial theme which is also the theme of a booklet that David Engelsma has written spousal abuse in the reformed community and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio David Engelsma.

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Thank you for having me especially because of the significance unfortunately of the topic that you have just announced by the way

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I'd like to send you greetings from two folks that are avid listeners to this program one is

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Ernie Springer who you undoubtedly recognize that name he is the author of a book that I have conducted so far two interviews on and I'm getting prepared to conduct a third on this book a very important book that should be in the hands of every christian and perhaps especially every pastor coronavirus and the leadership of the christian church a sacred trust broken book that Ernie co -authored with Joel Yeager who is actually my personal physician now and Dr.

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Daniel O 'Rourke so Ernie sends his greetings and also hello

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Ernie you've also uh received greetings today from Donald Philip Veitch and Donald Philip Veitch is the host of Twist House a facebook group named after the 16th century english reformer reformer

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William Twist and he is an enormous admirer of you and your work and has actually said that you are one of the nation's finest theologians and I think that's a very high compliment coming from someone that is not even of your own fellowship he's a reformed anglican and so they send their greetings to you

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I respond with greetings to him although he exaggerates my importance well

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I would humbly accept that compliment and believe there is some weight to it and this is the kind of book that a lot of people who might write such a book or draw attention to such a problem would not necessarily point the spotlight in their own backyard as it were christians are known for writing critical works against those critiquing those exposing those refuting those from other theological groups denominations religions and so on but you have demonstrated a bit of courage here to write a book about spousal abuse in the reformed community you being definitely a a prominent voice in the reformed community so tell us why you wrote this book to begin with and why the focus on the reformed community the way in which it came to pass that I wrote the small book and got myself involved in this very messy and dirty and wretchedly sinful area of the christian and non -christian life is that about five years ago

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I was approached by a godly young woman with several children in my own denomination and asked who asked if she could meet with me about an aspect of her marriage she came poured out her soul and I listened and came to the conclusion that this was an area of marital sinfulness that was quite essentially different from what

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I might call the ordinary marital troubles that men and women have this was in a class by itself she spoke of the perpetual abuse of herself both physically and verbally by her husband since the night of their marriage he did physically abuse her with blows and pinches and also by threatening more severe abuse but the main form of the abuse was unspeakable degradation of her he called her the filthiest and most ungodly names and that started already on the night of their marriage and kept that up for about 10 years which took her to the time that she was meeting with me and such was the effect of this upon her that she was emotionally and psychologically destroyed and humanly speaking as far as we could tell on the verge of being destroyed spiritually she said at one point he had abused her to the extent that I quote

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I no longer knew who I was end of quote which struck me as a very strange description of her plight but what

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I was expressing is that he was destroying her personally and psychologically

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I worked with her weekly for about six months some of which a good part of which time was spent strengthening her spiritually and assuring her that Jesus Christ had not abused her and was not destructive of her but was her faithful Savior God was still her father something that she was coming to doubt and as I worked with her over a period of six months

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I got calls and visits from other women there is a network of abused women they find often that they are not able to speak to others deplorably not even to their pastor or elders for various reasons which maybe we can touch upon later on in this interview so they seek each other out and find each other and she must have been telling some of her co -sufferers of my willingness to help so that during this six -month period six -month period other women came with the same basic tale of the destruction of themselves by their own husbands then

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I became aware of something that I should have become aware of before but did not and I recognized that there was in my own denomination an evil different from what

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I might call the ordinary marital troubles and that amounted to abuse the deliberate effort of husbands to destroy their wives psychologically and physically in order to make my colleagues my fellow office bearers in my denomination aware of this as I announced at the meeting to test what my analysis and evaluation was

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I asked for an audience of all of the office bearers and would -be office bearers in my own denomination so that I could present what

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I had come to think to them for their analysis and critique

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I gave a public lecture to office bearers only it was limited only to office bearers in view of the sensitivity of the subject and at that lecture some 200 or 300 men were present the response to my lecture informing them and alerting them to this dreadful evil was positive that is they agreed that there was this evil and now by virtue of my lecture they were able to identify this evil as I did as the evil of abuse a couple of months later

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I gave a more public lecture in the Grand Rapids Michigan area open to men and women and to office bearers and other interested parties outside of the denomination that I'm a member of as well as inside the denomination this lecture was attended by some 600 or 700 including a goodly amount of women who responded to this opening up of the subject because either they themselves or people of whom they had knowledge were suffering from this abuse soon after that I wrote the booklet to which you have already referred

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I think spousal abuse in the reform community a couple of thousand copies or more have been printed and they're gone

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I think there's going to be a reprinting of that booklet that opened up the reality of wife abuse in my own denomination and in the conservative reform denominations in the

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Grand Rapids area and all through the United States that's how

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I became involved in this now is this problem in your opinion of epidemic proportions is this a lot more widespread than the average

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Christian and perhaps even more particularly the average reform Christian might think

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I'm tempted to declare that it is of epidemic proportions that but that may be a little strong it is far more prominent in the reform community and I would expect in the

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Christian community more widely than we tend to give it credit for and there are various reasons for that wives tend to keep this a hidden matter for various reasons and the men of course do not advertise this but there are also reasons for the hiding of this in the consistories and among the office bearers of the church which is to be criticized and condemned but I would say it borders on epidemic proportions since the time to which

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I have referred just now I have become aware not willingly

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I have become aware of many more wives who are being abused by their husbands both within the denomination that I'm a member of and outside of the denomination

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I may comment on something you said in the introduction of myself that is that I've dared to criticize what's going on in the reform community

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I have felt myself compelled to deal with this and open up this matter within the denomination of which

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I am a member and I do not point fingers at anybody because looking back on my own ministry

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I now recognize that in my significant dealing with marital problems often or sometimes what

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I was dealing with was not what I would call ordinary marital troubles but actual cases of abuse which

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I did not recognize at the time I regret that deeply I have confessed this openly in the lectures

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I've put pointed the finger therefore at myself and I have asked God to forgive my failure in that regard

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I praise God for that I admire that humility and honesty

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I think it might be wise for us right now for you to define what should be truthfully categorized as abuse because there are there are obviously different levels and severities of abuse and in our day and age our politically correct day and age exaggeration seems to be supreme and I hope that nobody misunderstands me

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I'm not trying to undermine the severity of any kind of sad and tragic thing that especially a wife in a marriage is going through I don't mean to be insinuating that by my comment but we have a day and age when people are publicly accused of being racists when it's clearly not true and we have people being accused of being perverse predators when it turns out that the the evidence doesn't show that to be the case and so I'm saying that in light of that that that we really have a good definition to work with it may seem like a a silly question but I think it's an important one if you could define what you mean and what what you think should be labeled abuse yes not all marital troubles and conflicts are abuse two

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Christians living together as closely as husband and wife live together are going to show their corrupt nature from time to time in various ways that's all sin and it must be confessed repented of and confessed it must not be tolerated and excused but not all marital troubles are abuse

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I'm going to allow myself to describe abuse as I described it in the booklet on abuse that I wrote

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I was careful in my description of abuse in that booklet and this is what

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I wrote and this is how I would describe marital abuse still today I quote abuse is a husband's deliberate ongoing systematic relentless destruction of his wife whether her soul or her body or both the injury to the wife may be and often is physical he hits her even beats her the coward usually he is careful where he hits her so as to escape detection this proves that his abuse is not the loss of control but deliberate or there is pushing and shoving in a rage even when the abuse is not physical or primarily physical there is the open threat of physical violence intended to frighten the wife and thus bring her into what the husband considers submission and what is in fact abject terror a woman has told me of her lying in bed with her small children

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I have to control myself because I can become emotional about this

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I go back a woman has told me of her lying in bed with her small children of an evening shivering in the fear that her husband would return home to shoot them all and he had a pistol so she knew about this but abuse is not necessarily physical the destruction of a woman that is abused may be and often is injury of her soul the psychological and emotional destruction of the woman this takes the form of verbal abuse a never -ending assault on her by name calling and belittling the names are foul

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I refrain from mentioning the common degrading and filthy names they are calculated

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I use the word deliberately calculated to make the wife know herself as the worthless subhuman thing such as the unrelenting degradation that it convinces her that she has no redeeming quality including in the kitchen or in the bedroom end of quote that's abuse relentless steady degradation of the woman with either the threat of physical violence or the actual forms of physical violence and uh since you mentioned it in your description

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I am assuming that you would include in that pure psychological and emotional trauma through the bombardment of these nasty vicious insults that might not necessarily include a threat of violence or actual violence but constantly calling into question a woman's fidelity especially when she is a truly faithful spouse mocking her physical appearance and going on and on and when it is relentless and when it even gets even more severe than what

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I just mentioned I'm assuming that you would include psychological and emotional traumatizing of a yes and in that connection the young woman who really opened up this evil of abuse to me when we had met for a while I asked her does he hit you

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I was under the assumption that the only form of abuse would be physical violence and almost always physical violence is involved either the threat of it or the actual infliction of it and the threat of violence is violence as well as the actual implementation of it but I asked her in my naivete does he hit you and she said yes sometimes but I would rather that he hit me than to have him call me the names that he calls me day in and day out so that degradation that verbal degradation is definitely a powerful form of the determined destruction of the woman by the abusive husband now you said that spouses wives are very often keeping this a secret immediately comes to mind one of the primary reasons for this must be just that of pure fear of the vengeance or retribution that the husband might take against the wife for sharing these dirty little details about their home life but there there are probably others

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I'm assuming as well that we might not even readily think of what are the reasons that that wives typically keep this to themselves the books that are written on this subject and since the time that I became involved in this

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I have read any number of books on spousal abuse so what

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I'm saying on this program is not only based on my own experience but is also based on research that I've done the writers who have studied this matter claim in almost unanimity that a wife will suffer abuse for 10 or 11 years before she makes an issue of it that is before she makes this aware to a consistory let us say or even to society at large she will have suffered this patiently for 10 or 11 years and that's certainly true in the reform community and particularly in the denomination of which

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I am a member and part of the reason is that she's scared to death that if she opens up about this and her husband finds out about it her life will become a hell worse than it was before that brings up the matter of the wise handling of this matter by the pastor and by the consistory for a time he has to be careful not to divulge to the husband anyway that the wife has come to him when it necessarily becomes time for the church to make this a public matter they must provide safety for the wife or he'll beat her into submission or that's what he's trying to do but in many reformed churches including my own another powerful reason why a woman will suffer this in silence for years is that we put such a high premium on marriage in the family and the wife loves her marriage that is not her particular marriage but she loves the biblical thought of marriage and she loves her children which are usually involved and does not want to jeopardize her place as a wife and her family of children partly that's due to the fact that when this becomes known she thinks that will expose her as a failure she should have been able to keep her husband happy and she should have been able to keep her family intact and invariably that poor woman will suffer this degradation and physical violence for half a dozen or 10 years before finally it's so intolerable that she's forced to look for help and that means make it public to some extent well we have to go to our first station break and if anybody would like to send in a question to david engelsma of their own please send it to chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and with a subject like this i could readily understand there be me being many listeners who would prefer to remain anonymous because this is a sin an abomination occurring right under their own roof or in the homes of people they know very well and so in those cases i wouldn't identify you even if you did identify yourself but you may wish to anonymous if it's about a personal in private matter if it's just a theological question if it's just a general question on pastoral counsel in this matter etc please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence that's chris arnzen at gmail .com

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don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with more of david engelsma and spousal abuse in the community chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now dot com that's get world now dot com i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital there's no obligation and no credit card required visit get world now dot com today also check out world news groups podcast the world and everything in it at w n g dot org forward slash podcast that's w for n for news g for group dot org forward slash podcast i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries my friend chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are headed down to atlanta georgia once again for the g3 conference this year's g3 will be held thursday september 30th through saturday october 2nd on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of god through preaching teaching and singing including john mccarthur phil johnson conrad and bayway daryl bernard harrison and virgil walker for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill salsa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned in to iron trump and zion radio our guest today for the full two hours is david j engelsma we are discussing his booklet spousal abuse in the reformed community and if you have a question our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa and you may feel very free to remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and you said something before that triggered a memory of mine in about a former or previous interview that i had conducted on this same issue and i was initially surprised that the guest was insisting the importance of finding a safe place for the wife to be relocated because my first reaction was hey if this man is the one who is the guilty party and he is the one that's actually abusing his wife why not make sure he's removed from the premises and that he bears the responsibility of finding a place to live and my guest very wisely and and rightfully responded yes but the husband will know where she is and if he's violent that could present an even more dangerous scenario that's why the wife has to be removed and on many circumstances or in many circumstances should be removed and at least temporarily placed in a safe place that is private where the husband does not know her whereabouts is is that a correct way of further describing the situation i think you've described it correctly and i think you've also expressed my own sentiment on the matter he ought to be getting out of the house not her but it doesn't work out that way in hard fact especially when it's first becoming known that she has gone to the consistory of the church with her problem or even going has gone to the civil state for protection from him she'll she'll find herself outside the home and and she needs a safe place and she has to be protected from from him for a while at least now you have said that this has drawn considerable attention this subject and your lectures and your booklet have drawn considerable attention in your denomination since you have had many discussions with individuals on this subject have you found in your research and your studies and your experience that pastors are also frequently guilty of this crime and sin unfortunately i have found that there is a serious failure on the part of pastors and consistories when i speak of consistories i'm referring to the form of church government that we have in the reformed churches and that is that there's a body of men called elders who govern the church so that matters such as wife abuse which is a sin a grievous sin eventually finds its way to the attention of the consistory and this is in the local church these elders just as the reformed baptists typically believe in a plurality of elders which we would believe are synonymous with pastors all right that's correct it's a body of men who govern the church with it you can call you can call the situation also a teaching elder and a ruling elder in our system of government the church has ordinarily one teaching elder or a pastor and then a body a number of men who are the ruling elders and together they govern the church so eventually this sin comes to the attention of the full consistory of teaching elder and ruling elders and then things break down often not always but there is a serious weakness here the trouble i have found is not only that wicked men or temporarily wicked men are abusing their wives but also that the consistories turn a blind eye or seriously mishandle the evil and that mishandling takes a number of forms for one thing there can be a deliberate ignoring of the sin in the ministry of the teaching elder and in the government of the church by the ruling elders they ignore it there are reasons why they ignore it one of those reasons is that if you get involved in this trying to help the women you're going to get hurt yourself when you get down in the mud the old saying is this is a dirty business then you're going to get dirty yourself and i have found that to be the case with myself but the second problem with consistories is that in pastors in particular now they will brush off the women who finally dare turn to the pastor and ask for help it's a nasty it's a nasty business it involves all kinds of dangers to the pastor you'll come under criticism from those who defend the man and take his side over against his abused wife then i'm reminded of the saying of james 2 verses 15 and 16 where james says that there are those who will tell the needy be warmed and be fed and they don't give them any food or any clothing there's also this that ministers and elders refuse to take the case seriously they will regard it as i confess i did for some years when i was a pastor as merely if i may use that word a case of marital trouble when it's in a class by itself what is the most evil of all is that the pastor who usually is the point man in this the one to whom the woman finally comes necessarily and understandably the pastor will side with the man who is often a rich and popular man in the congregation they'll side with him he tells the story of course that she's a wretched wife and she's nuts and criticizes her in all kinds of ways and the minister will side with that man adding to the wife's grief and that can in that situation i give the warning not not only here and now but i've given the warning in other places as well such a pastor exposes himself to the severe judgment of god i think the warning of jesus in matthew 25 applies to ministers who deliberately refuse to help the wife and take the side even of the husband you'll recall that in matthew 25 to put it in terms of what we're talking about now jesus says and as much as you did not help the abused wife and allowed her to be destroyed you refused to help me as much as it was possible allowed me to be destroyed that's the severity of the judgment upon pastors in the church who deliberately refuse to come to the aid and comfort of abused women well we do have an anonymous listener who says i have a friend who is a victim of spousal abuse and she actually went to the lengths of writing a book about it and apparently many of the colleagues of her ex -husband in the denomination that they were a member of have turned on her and defrauded her and i was wondering if you have gotten the negative feedback from the pastoral end of it in your own denomination i have come under attack for exposing this and implicitly or explicitly being critical of the way in which many of us has have dealt with this sin or failed to deal with this sin so that there are risks involved but if we're not willing as servants of god to take risks on behalf of christ beleaguered and destroyed children were not worthy of the office of pastor so i would i would advise ministers who for one reason or another have failed to bestir themselves in the help of women in their own congregations that they must be willing to suffer for christ's sake in their exercise of their pastoral office on behalf of the abused women there must be action on the part of pastors especially to put an end once and for all or as much as possible to this evil in the church of jesus christ now that starts with the preaching the preaching of the gospel must expose and abuse and must expose and condemn abuse as the evil that it really is and that's the evil of murder let me demonstrate that that's how serious this matter is in my own denomination once a sunday we preach the word of god out of a creed called the heidelberg catechism a creed that summarizes the christian faith from the point of view of the comfort of the child of god let me read what we call lord's day or you would call section 40 of this heidelberg catechism the question is what does god require in the sixth commandment that's the commandment of course thou shall not kill the answer is this that neither in thoughts nor words nor gestures much less in deeds i dishonor hate wound or kill my neighbor by myself or any other the wife my wife is my neighbor my closest neighbor and if even in thoughts much more in words and gestures and deeds i dishonor her hate her wound her or kill her which is what an abusive husband does by verbal abuse and much more by physical violence i'm guilty of murder in the judgment of god according to the creed of the reformed faith but then the question follows but this commandment seems only to speak of murder and forbidding murder god teaches us that he abhors the causes thereof such as envy hatred anger and desire of revenge and that he accounts all these as murder an abusive husband hates his wife and he behaves himself often in unholy anger towards her and according to this creed of the reformed churches that's murder then the last question of this section asks this but is it enough that we do not kill any man in the manner mentioned above the answer is this no for when god forbids envy hatred and anger he commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves to show patience peace meekness mercy and all kindness towards him and to prevent his hurt as much as in us lies and that we do good even to our enemies now that's plain enough in the reformed churches that the husband is to love his wife in such a way that he's patient with her he's at peace with her he's meek in his behavior towards her he's merciful towards her and he lives with her in all kindness if he doesn't live that way he's a murderer therefore when the wife finally comes to the pastor or to the elders of the church with her sorry tale of the bad behavior of her husband towards her the pastor and the elders must regard that behavior as ongoing murder and must deal with that situation and with that evil as they would deal with the evil of murder that means that as as long as he continues in that sin and is not genuinely repentant of his abuse of his wife he shows himself to be an unbeliever and he must be put out of the church of christ by the discipline of excommunication the trouble is not only that pastors and elders the trouble is not only that men are abusing their wives in the reformed and calvinistic churches but the consistories and pastors are turning a blind eye to the evil and even in some cases protecting the abusive husband they're not protecting the wife and they're not dealing with the sin in the church of murder as they ought to be dealing with it in fact we're going to pick up right where you left off it's a very important point an extremely important point we have to go to our midway break right now and if you have a question of your own please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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we do have a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered and if you would like to get in line and be one of them our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com keep in mind folks this is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the fcc requires of them to localize iron trip and zion radio and all of their programming geographically to lake city florida so they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials please make best use of this time by writing down as much of the information as possible for as many of our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to them the advertisers and patronize them whenever possible so that they will be more than likely to remain our advertisers which is necessary for us to remain on the air we absolutely positively depend upon our advertisers to exist so please make sure you let our advertisers know even if it just means that you respond to them and thank them for sponsoring iron sharpens iron radio let them know that you appreciate them sponsoring the show because that will go a long way even if you can't patronize them and also send in questions uh to david engelsma at chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsor hello dear ones my name is justin peters and my friend chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the united states we'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october the 2nd on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers including john macarthur phil johnson vody balkan joel beakey and james white for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's number three conference .com please join chris arnson and me september 30th through october the second at g3 2021 this is justin peters reminding you that christ is supreme over all fellowshipping with the family linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call in brook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org was your business shut down during the covet 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870 buttafuco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4870 hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio .com as host of iron sharpens iron radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations the church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio getting a driver's license running a cash register flipping passing sixth grade do you know what they all have in common they all require training assessments and certifications but do you know what requires no training at all becoming a parent my name is am brewster i'm the president of truth love parents and host of its award -winning podcast i've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what i've discovered is that the majority of christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of ministry in their homes that's why truth love parent exists we serve god by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents god called and created them to be we produce free parenting resources train church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness please visit at truthloveparent .com

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we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family bhanu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be pretty serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not add up in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

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that's liyfc .org are you tired of looking for the silver bullet when it comes to health and wellness are you frustrated with the medical status quo which masks symptoms and doesn't treat the root problem of sickness more importantly are you looking for one of the most unique books ever written which gives you safe low cost and proven options to regain your health the way god intended then look no further than my new book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations hi i'm jason garwood and i'm a husband father pastor and writer whose passion for helping people led me to write this book if 2020 has proven anything it's that big pharma big tech and big government knows nothing about how to treat people naturally without poisoning them with synthetic drugs and experimental vaccines but what if god has given us a better way what if we can take the christian worldview found in the bible and apply it to health and wellness my book health for all of life does just that you can find this exciting new book on amazon pick up a copy for yourself and for your friends and family give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth charles heddon's virgin once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com

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that's solid ground books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and please don't ever forget folks that we here at iron sharpens iron radio absolutely depend upon the advertising dollars that come through the support of solid -ground -books .com

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always give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter but we are now back with david j engelsma and we are continuing our discussion a very important vital discussion that is sadly brushed under the rug swept under the rug far too often and this is the discussion on spousal abuse in the reformed community if you have any questions our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and professor engelsma the question of how severe must circumstances be before one calls the police i'm sure is a very frequently asked question and a very important question because failure to do so could wind up in even deadly consequences in some circumstances so tell us your counsel as a pastor who has obviously devoted a lot of time to this subject i'll answer that question in a longer response than might be the case and the evidence for the necessity of that will be plain i think how to handle this is a difficult subject and i have studied this carefully and have come to some substantial conclusions i believe as to how this must be handled especially by individuals in the church and by the pastor to whom the woman inevitably will go when things become desperate for her what complicates the answer to the question how must this be handled is the instruction of our lord in matthew 18 as to how we are to handle sins that are committed that are of a private nature how we are to handle those at the origin of dealing with this matter someone who is sinned against must go to the one who sinned against him keep it private and admonish him and if he repents it stops there and if there is no repentance he's to go back with one or two others so that there are witnesses to what is said only then is the matter to be made public by going to the consistory or the ruling body of the church taking that all into account i advise this way of handling a matter of a husband's abuse of his wife she will go to the pastor usually with her woe which amounts to an accusation of serious sin murder on the part of her husband and the pastor or the elder as the case may be must receive the woman sympathetically and listen to what she has to say and i emphasize listen to her because often a pastor will trouble the whole matter of dealing with her in a way that will help her by failing to listen to her she hardly gets started and he's putting in telling her that she must submit to her husband and making all kinds of statements that show her that she does not have a sympathetic hearer the woman that opened all of this up to me several years ago after she had met with me for several months said to me on one occasion i come to you because when i first came to you you listened to me and i looked at her with puzzlement because to my mind the first basic calling of a pastor with regard to dealing with parishioners or those to come to him coming to him for help is that he listens to the person who comes to him he doesn't insert himself into the conversation until she is talked out and listening to her means also that he listens sympathetically giving credence to what the one who comes to him has to say so the pastor or the elder must receive the woman must listen to her and show her that he's listening to her and i would add tentatively believe the woman he doesn't start out with suspicion but tentatively he believes her i say tentatively because before he can conclude that her accusations against her husband and that's what her tale of woe is going to involve before he can conclude that her accusations are are right and true he has to give the husband a chance to speak also but he receives her he listens to her shows her that he's listening sympathetically and tentatively believe the woman now after a while that has to be verified by treating the husband by dealing with the husband by bringing to the husband the report of his misbehavior that the woman has brought to the pastor or to the elders but at that point provision must be made for the safe safety of the wife at that point the husband becomes aware that his wife has had the courage to bring his sin to the attention of the pastor so the pastor must be involved in finding a safe place at that point for the woman to stay while this is being dealt with by the church that points out something about the handling of the case by the church they mustn't allow this to go on forever in a day they have to take this in hand and deal with this summarily as quickly as possible in any case the pastor and maybe an elder with him listen to the husband and by listening to the husband giving him a chance to respond they will inevitably find out that the tale of woe that the wife brought to the pastor was correct was right and that the husband is living in the sin of murder by abusing his wife at that point the case must be brought to the whole body of the elders the government of the church because this involves church discipline admonition of the sinner by the elders and eventually if he doesn't repent excommunication of him out of the church at that point also the matter becomes a public matter the wife isn't living with her husband and therefore an announcement will have to be made to the church that the church has put the husband under the first step of discipline for the sin of murdering his wife and the elders will work then with the husband to try to bring him to repentance it's important in all of this as i said before to protect the the wife and when the this is an important aspect to the whole matter also when the wife is living separately from the husband because of his abuse the church must not say that she has left quote end quote the husband in the biblical sense of the word leaving she hasn't left him but he has driven her out this is important because the bible forbids a wife to leave her husband matthew 19 and first corinthians 7 the wife should not may not leave her husband but the reference there is to her divorcing him unjustly that's not what's happening in this case of the living separately of the two when there's an abusive husband when she's living separately from the husband because he's been abusing her she has not left in the biblical sense of the word leaving but he has driven her out that's different then i come to the matter of the involvement of the state the state ought to be involved immediately if the abuse comes to the point of his threatening physical harm to her but even then the pastor of the church or the elders ought to be informed by the wife of her involvement of the state so that they can give her advice and help her in that matter in fact he may have already begun physically harming her she may wind up on the doorstep of her elders already visibly and obviously battered and bruised that's correct and then they ought to involve themselves in helping her to get uh support and protection from the state there's also this too it's not only a matter of protection of her physical well -being but inevitably involved as financial support for her she's living outside of her home the husband controls the finances and the brute refuses to support her financially or the children as well who are usually going out with her so the state has to be involved to compel him to support his wife and his children financially that's when the state necessarily is involved uh we do have a listener a very faithful and generous supporter of iron trippins iron radio in ashborough north carolina grady who asks greetings brothers this is heart -wrenching what has been the reaction of the husbands involved i assume that they're confronted and church discipline is enforced are they involved in pornography i guess this would be uh a different answer according to the different circumstances because this is not a cookie cutter situation but perhaps you could even just speak about percentages uh professor angles as far as how the husbands react in your own experience do uh or what percentage of them come to repentance and admit their guilt and and so on according to the questions grady asked your questionnaire is astute almost always that would be my description of the percentages almost always in cases of the abuse of a wife pornography and drunkenness are involved that's part of the abuse the husband will amuse himself that's like amusing himself with a rattlesnake but he amuses himself with pornography and then demands that his wife participate in that filth with him and also he's usually drunken when he abuses her the reason for which is intriguing is he does he have a guilty conscience that he tries to drown out by being drunk in the activity of abuse but in any case uh drunkenness and pornography are invariably part of the package that's why when the consistory gets involved and it must get involved as soon as the woman as soon as they know about it and they know about it when she comes to the pastor or an elder they must also look for the sins of pornography and drunkenness as well as the sin of abuse now was there another part to that question that i'm overlooking uh well he says what is the reaction of the husbands involved yes that's that's an important part of the matter too invariably when the consistory or the rulers of the church are involved and confront him with his wife's report about his abuse he will deny it that's important for a consistory or the rulers of the church to take into consideration he will deny it and then he will counter -attack that she's crazy or that she's always had a nervous condition and will present himself as an upstanding citizen of the kingdom of god the consistory ought to begin by doubting the truthfulness of his defense of himself they they can do that on the basis that a wife will not come with a tale of woe such as she has brought to the pastor unless there's truth in what she's uh saying but if they work with him more than once and more than in a cursory matter manner they will discover inevitably that her report was true and that his was false so the reaction of the husband is that he will defend himself at first and counter -attack her but any serious work with him by the pastor and the elders will prove that she is telling the truth and that he's a liar and it shouldn't surprise anybody that a man guilty of that sin shows himself to be a liar in the matter of his abuse he has promised her that he will love her as a faithful husband and care for her and treat her i'm talking about marriages in the as christ treats the church by abusing her he's lying with regard to the vow he took at marriage and if he's willing to lie regarding that fundamental vow he's willing to lie also when it comes time for him to admit his sin against her thank you grady uh keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and keep spreading the word about the program in ashborough north carolina and beyond we have an anonymous listener who said earlier in the program you had mentioned that you are getting some very negative feedback from pastors in your own denomination are they giving you negative feedback because they are denying the reality of the magnitude of this problem in your denomination or are they giving you negative feedback even knowing and admitting that this is a reality in your denomination i mustn't exaggerate the criticism that i'm receiving for the overwhelming main part my exposure of this evil has been received and the overwhelming majority of the pastors have acknowledged freely that this has been helped my opening up this evil has been helpful to them as also my advice with regard to how we must treat this matter but there has been negative feedback and i do not for the life of me know why this criticism how this criticism is motivated i cannot answer that question it seems to me indefensible and inexplicable the evil is there the evidence of the presence of the evil is the thinking of women many of whom now or some of whom now have gone to their consistories upon my advice and have verified what i have been saying to my mind uh there shouldn't be any doubt about the reality of the evil among us or about the necessity and rightfulness of the concern that i'm showing for this evil i cannot answer his question one thing that i forgot to ask you and follow up to what you were just saying before that question uh you were responding to grady's uh question about how the husbands respond what is the what has been the reaction of the husbands involved he asked and you started talking about denial but i don't recall if you said that was the majority of the husbands who are confronted is it the majority that that deny the truthfulness of the accusations against them it's virtually to be expected that when confronted by the consistory the authorities in the church with the accusation against him of the wife he will deny it at the first meeting he doesn't want to be blamed he's embarrassed by it his conscience bothers him but the vast majority of instances will consist of the denial on the part of the husband and sometimes this is when things get really serious he will counter -attack her in every way that he possibly can the abuser is a brute i cannot judge him to be lost because there is the possibility of repentance but he conducts himself as a godless brute he's what he's willing to hurt and virtually destroy the wife of his own bosom and the mother of his children something that again i find inexplicable how a man can but the power of sin is enormous and satan is a destroyer so it happens sometimes the brute will counter -attack her he's often rich he will use all of the possibilities of the legal system to refuse to support her and to support his own children he will hire the best lawyer in grand rapids and counter -attack the poor woman who is virtually destroyed to start with so that there are these instances which ought to infuriate the children of god who know about this and ought to bring down upon him the heavier weight of the consistory's condemnation of him but doesn't always happen that way and we hate to bring up this reality because of the wrong way this may be interpreted especially by women listening who have been victims who have been traumatized maybe permanently mentally scarred and physically scarred because of these things but we just know it's a reality even from what we have seen in the media uh after the kavanaugh hearings and so on that there are women who do falsely accuse men of these things in fact it is quite tragic that especially when women are attempting to get sole custody of children and so on they have accused the husbands of not only abusing them but their children and very often or at least i'm not an expert on the statistics but at least it has been proven that a considerable percentage of the time these accusations have later proven to be false uh how are things like this typically determined with a consistory and so on it's certainly necessary to establish the truth of the charges of the wife against her husband but especially in reformed churches and exceedingly especially in the denomination of which i am a member a charge of abuse by a wife against her husband is very rare that's acknowledged by the secular writers on abuse where marriage is not held in such high esteem as among reformed christians the percentage is so low as to be virtually negligible that's why i have said more than once in our conversation when it comes to the attention of the consistory or to the attention of the pastor he ought to begin by believing the woman it's a tentative belief because it's also a cardinal rule of jurisprudence that you must give a hearing to the one who is accused but you may start out safely by believing the woman she wouldn't be there she wouldn't be pouring her heart out if what she was saying is not true she wants to protect her marriage she's willing to forgive her husband somewhere i read from a secular author on this matter that in the world a woman will return to her abusive husband 10 times consider that that's quite a quite a number of times she'll return to her husband 10 times before she finally gives up on him and divorces him but especially in the church marriage is prized so highly and the family of children usually are so esteemed by the woman that she will not make up a story in order to break up her marriage and her family but then to nail things down so to speak at a certain point the husband must be given a hearing and a consistory of wise christian men will be able to sort it out that she's telling the truth and he's lying or in the rare case that she's lying and he's telling the truth the consistory the pastor and the elders are judges in the sphere of the people of god and they have to exercise their judgment in this matter usually it will not be difficult to exercise that judgment show the truth of what the woman is saying we have another anonymous listener who says in your experience how often is the husband actually the victim of abuse we know that according to even what the scriptures have to say the woman is the weaker vessel but you do have certain circumstances where you may have a disabled husband a husband who's much older than his wife or perhaps even a situation where he is such a gentleman he refuses to react in a physical manner to stop the physical brutality he may be receiving what is your experience on this in my own experience and now i look back over all my ministry not just the last half a dozen years or so in which i've been involved in cases of abuse i was a pastor in two churches for 25 years before i was appointed to the seminary and had to deal with all the matters that are part of church life the last the second church was a church of over 600 members so there were many many possible instances of all kinds of marital troubles looking back over my my own experience i cannot come up with a single instance of a husband's complaining and complaining with some semblance of truth about his wife's abuse of her or even even of his wife being the cause of the trouble in the marriage now there may have been a few but the percentage is very very low and when it comes to a charge of abuse in order to free herself of a unhappy marriage i can't think of any any such case in the denomination in which i am a member the possibilities of a woman making a charge of abuse against her husband and then enforcing that so that she can be free of him is lessened even more by the fact that in the judgment of the protestant reformed churches remarriage after divorce is forbidden even in the case of adultery divorce is permitted we think on biblical grounds matthew 19 and mark 10 and first corinthians 7 but remarriage is forbidden as long as the original mate is living that makes it even less likely that a woman is going to invent charges of abuse in order to divorce her husband because there's no possibility of remarriage for her in that case well we have one more break to go to a much shorter break than the last breaks if you have a question i would send it in now before we run out of time it's chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com give us the first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and as i've said before obviously this subject would lend itself very easily to someone having a personal and private matter to bring up so we hope to hear from you soon after these messages hello dear ones my name is justin peters and my friend chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the united states we'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october the 2nd on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers including john mccarthur phil johnson vody balkan joel beake and james white for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's g the number three conference .com please join chris arnzen and me september 30th through october the 2nd at g3 2021 this is justin peters reminding you that christ is supreme over all are you tired of looking for the silver bullet when it comes to health and wellness are you frustrated with the medical status quo which masks symptoms and doesn't treat the root problem of sickness more importantly are you looking for one of the most unique books ever written which gives you safe low cost and proven options to regain your health the way god intended then look no further than my new book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations hi i'm jason garwood and i'm a husband father pastor and writer whose passion for helping people led me to write this book if 2020 has proven anything it's that big pharma big tech and big government knows nothing about how to treat people naturally without poisoning them with synthetic drugs and experimental vaccines but what if god has given us a better way what if we can take the christian worldview found in the bible and apply it to health and wellness my book health for all of life does just that you can find this exciting new book on amazon pick up a copy for yourself and for your friends and family give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth james white of alphanamega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle allen 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com so getting a driver's license running a cash register flipping burgers passing sixth grade do you know what they all have in common they all require training assessments and certifications but do you know what requires no training at all becoming a parent my name is am brewster i'm the president of truth love parents and host of its award -winning podcast i've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what i've discovered is that the majority of christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes that's why truth love parent exists we serve god by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents god called and created them to be we produce free parenting resources trained church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness please visit us at truth love parent dot com i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and christopher mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

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that's hope reformed ally .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron foreign chris arenson host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine by trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now .com

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website i want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the iron sharpens iron radio show like i do you can now find it on the apple's itune app by typing iron sharpens iron radio in the search bar you no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work just subscribe on the itunes app and listen to the iron sharpens iron radio show at any time day or night please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and many solidly reform guests that chris arnson has on the show truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news subscribe to the iron sharpens iron radio podcast right now and while you're at it you can also sign up for the reform podcast and visit our website and the youtube page we are dedicated to teaching christian theology from a reform baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers from keach's catechism and the doctrines of grace to the olivet discourse and the book of leviticus the reform rookie podcast and youtube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth and finally if you're looking to worship in a reform church that holds to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith please join us at hope reform baptist church in quorum new york again i'm pastor anthony evino and thanks for listening we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family banu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead banu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program welcome back this is chris arnzen and we have been interviewing david engelsma on a very vital subject a subject that needs to be addressed that sadly very often is swept under the rug and avoided and from which people both in the pew and in the pulpit tend to hide all too often unfortunately that is spousal abuse and specifically we are addressing spousal abuse in the reformed community if you have a question i would send it in immediately because we are going to be out of time before you know it and we do have another anonymous question who says how often in your experience are the husbands who are guilty of spousal abuse brought to true repentance and restoration in the fellowship and the marriage alas almost never wow abuse hardcore abuse and that's what we're talking about almost never is repented of with a repentance that shows itself in a change of life that's why when this first comes to the attention of the pastor or the elders they must not be immediately convinced of the sincerity of the husband's confession even though it's often with tears he will sometimes respond by denying it but later when it's proved against him and the wife is living away from him and he realizes his loneliness he will confess with tears i have sinned i'm sorry but often most usually he's sorry for himself not for his sin against his wife in fact so much is this the case that secular authors who have worked with this in the world will go so far as to say it never is repented of now no reformed christian may take that position because with regard to sin accepting the sin against the holy ghost the grace of god is sufficient to bring his people to repentance but it's a very rare thing that's why before the consistry demands that the wife take this man back into her bed and house they must work with him for a while to bring him to a true repentance and to be assured that he is truly repentance this is difficult work for a consistory and i wanted to add one thing that i overlooked which i should not have overlooked when you asked about the response of the husband when he's finally confronted with his sin by the consistory very often especially in the reformed community the husband will aggressively state i am the head he will appeal to his headship as really a justification for his bad treatment of his wife appealing of course to ephesians 5 the response to that even on the part of conservative churches today is to deny the headship of the husband over his wife ephesians 5 teaches plainly that the husband is the head of his wife so that he has authority in the marriage but what an abusive husband forgets is that ephesians 5 does not simply teach the authority of the husband the headship of the husband it teaches the headship of the husband with regard to the wife modeled after christ's headship with regard to the church he's the head as christ is the head of the church and christ's headship was not a headship to abuse his wife but rather a headship of love so that christ gave himself for the church and the giving of all his lifelong suffering and especially his death on the cross that's how the church must preach the headship of the husband and her instruction with regard to marriage and that's how the pastor and the elders should respond to the abusive husband's belligerent claim to be the head of his wife yes you are the head of the wife to give yourself on behalf of the wife your sin is that you refuse to be the head of your wife as christ is the head of the church yes and we are supposed to be loving our wives as christ loved the church and if husbands think that being the head of the household and being uh an authority over their wives give them permission and license and liberty to abuse their own wives then they should be expecting christ to be miserably torturing them for the rest of their lives that's right people don't usually think these things logically through and we could even say the same thing for the civil authorities they have a a realm of authority over our lives but that does not mean that we should sit back and be silent when tyranny rises no sir and when the husband says he has to abuse his wife to gain her submission he shows himself foolish there too you don't gain submission from your wife by abusing her you gain submission from your wife by loving her so to speak you love her into submission i recall again with one of the women with whom i was working that subject came up and she said through her tears i want to submit to him i want to do that but really he was making it impossible for her to do that by his abusive attitude and actions toward her christ that's how christ gains our submission is that not right christ doesn't abuse us into submission he loves us into submission he loved us and gave himself for us ephesians 5 we love him in response to his loving headship he doesn't beat us into submission he loves us into submission well we have a uh listener who who tuned in late and you've already answered all his questions uh so i'm going to tell mike and monroe new york listen to the recording of the program tomorrow when it is archived at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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and you could hear those answers to your questions but perhaps you have something to add i'll just rattle through them right now before we run out of time if there is physical violence involved are we obligated to report this to the police especially if the husband is not remorseful or shows any sign of true contrition how can we be that a violent husband would not put on an act in order to avoid arrest anything further to add to what you've already said on that i have checked with a lawyer acquaintance and friend of mine and the law does not require even the church to report a husband to his wife a husband to the state if he has threatened his wife wow really no but common sense teaches that if a husband has threatened physical violence i'm thinking now of a woman who reported to me that her husband dragged her down the stairs by her hair and stuck a pistol against her forehead and threatened to shoot her wow if a husband threatens and it actually carries out physical violence common sense teaches that the church should help her report this to the police so that she gains protection from the civil state romans 13 teaches that that's why god has instituted the state protect those who do well so the state may not require this reporting but common sense would indicate that there should be this reporting about the danger of violence well do you have uh some final words that you'd like to say in summary uh to uh give to our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds regarding this topic there's an evil abroad in the churches and that evil must be exposed and condemned and handled rightly by the consistory of the churches the great responsibility for hit for handling this in the end falls upon the consistories the pastor and the ruling elders they must not hide from this they must not uh handle it foolishly by sweeping it under the rug they must take hold of it in the preaching and in the pastoral work of the church so that they drive this evil out of the church with the by the grace of god well professor angles even though this was a difficult subject it was nonetheless a joy to have you back on the program and a delight i do want to let our listeners know that professor angles is returning to the program on thursday april 8th to begin what i believe will at least be a two -part series meaning at least two interviews possibly more on his new commentary on the belgic confession which is one of the uh three forms of unity uh so i hope that you mark your calendars for that very important uh interview which as i said will most likely begin a series of multiple interviews on that very important and historic confession of faith uh professor angles can you let our listeners know where they can get a copy of the booklet that we've been addressing for the last two hours spousal abuse in the reform community that is available from the byron center b -y -r -o -n one word center protestant reform church here follows the address one nine four five dash 84th street byron center michigan 49315 i don't believe there's any charge this is a mission of love for the abused women if you order you'll receive copies free of charge i believe and everybody who sent in questions today uh will receive a copy so make sure you give us your full mailing address and we will have cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com