Christian teachings are an abomination??

Well, it's that time of year again for Apology of Christian Ministries. It's the annual Christmas lights at the Mesa Temple here in Mesa, Arizona. And so we were actually able to capture some audio of a conversation we had while we were at the temple doing some evangelism with the LDS community.

Hope that this audio is actually beneficial for you. It's kind of a common conversation that takes place in the sense of some of the same subjects we touch normally. And we just hope that this is beneficial for you.

You can use this in your own evangelism. And just please continue to pray for us as we do our outreach to the Mormon community. And if you feel led, just join with us and partner with us as a ministry.

We'd appreciate that. Thank you very much for that. Keep us in your prayers, and we hope that this is beneficial for you.

Bless you.

Hi guys.

Merry Christmas.

Bless you guys.

So that you don't know if they're...

Is this for LDS members?

Yeah.

We wrote these for members.

So the front is basic LDS teachings, some of the prophets, apostles, and then it compares.

Them to the scripture. We're LDS.

Yeah.

We're Christian. We're just comparing Mormon theology with scripture, and it's a message of grace.

Okay.

So it's a good message?

It's not anti?

Well, I think you might refer to it as anti, but it's positive.

Positive and anti?

Positive, love, and grace.

Okay.

Because other churches, we always speak highly of, and so we would respect that if you're on our graves.

Yeah.

I hope that you would do the same.

You speak highly of other churches?

Yes, we do.

We don't speak negatively of any.

We never do.

What about the First Vision?

We can't figure out why people want to speak so negatively about us. Why don't they just focus on their own beliefs?

That's a good question. Yeah, I don't want to. As a Christian, just Joseph's First Vision, all the creeds are abomination, all the professors are corrupt. So that's highly speaking, you think?

But when we're at church every Sunday, if we speak of other religions, we preach of that. If we're ever around people that are not of our religion, we will never talk down of what their beliefs are, even if they're different.

Okay.

Your beliefs are different.

Especially if they're in a positive light.

Yeah.

And I would suggest that you try to stay in a positive light.

Well, we are.

I don't think preaching against a religion in front of the world, in front of their sacred temple, I don't think that's a good idea.

Would you agree that coming to people's doors...

I don't think you're even trying to listen.

I'm answering you.

Well, no, you're not, because I didn't get to finish.

Okay, well, go ahead.

But, anyways.

Okay, well, would you agree, if you come to someone's door daily to tell them that all their creeds are abomination, all their professors are corrupt...

Is that what our missionaries do?

Yeah, absolutely.

He went on a mission.

I wasn't a missionary.

He didn't do that.

So, you never taught the first vision to anybody when you went to someone's house?

But, see, you're taking it out of context now. You're saying, teaching the first vision is teaching that everybody is corrupt but me.

Could you relate to me the Joseph Smith's first vision that Elohim told him?

Well, I think that you apparently have something in your mind...

Join none of the churches, because they're all what?

Because they're all incorrect.

Wrong.

In some way, yeah. And all their creeds are what?

Um...

Abomination. All their professors, that's me, are corrupt.

Okay, well, there wasn't anything that we had memorized or anything that would have said.

But you did read the first vision, then.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it does say that, correct?

Oh, that's cool! And what's your problem with it? I mean, do you feel like your religion is the only true, maybe unlimited...

Well, I believe that Jesus is the only way, yes, and that the gospel...

And that's how we feel. The name of our church is Church of Jesus Christ.

Which one, though? Is he Satan's brother or the eternal God? Because those aren't the same. You see, the Bible teaches that Jesus is the eternal God, the creator of Satan. But the LDS Church teaches you that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, and so are we all.

Brothers and sisters, we're Lucifer. But the difference is, is that the Bible warns about other Jesuses. And my hope, and I'm a pastor. My hope as a Christian is to try to just encourage you guys to just know the Bible always warned about other Christs, other gospels, things like that.

And we believe, with love and respect for you guys, that this church is teaching you a different Jesus and a different gospel. And that's what the tract is about.

And so, well, let's just say it is.

Okay.

What's at your... what's at your problem?

Because we love you guys.

Yeah.

We care about you.

You're our brother, we know that.

Yeah, and I don't see what is your problem. I mean, let's say that we believe that your Christian faith, of whatever type of Christian faith it is, let's just say that we don't believe that you're 100 true either.

Yeah.

I respect that.

And I'm not standing in front of your church trying to tell other people that that are walking into your church.

Right.

But you do go... Don't you think that would be pretty contentious if I did that?

Well, the Bible calls us to earnestly contend for the faith.

Did you want to answer my question?

Sure, yeah.

I'm answering it. The Bible calls us in Jude verse 3 to earnestly contend for the faith, which is once for all delivered to the saints. So it tells us as Christians to earnestly put up a stiff defense for the faith.

And the key thing is this, and I'm sure you'd agree with me on this, is that Jesus says he's the only way. I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me, correct?

That is correct.

But if somebody has a false Jesus, it's not a real Jesus, can that Jesus save? Do you see the...

Well, I mean, you're kind of taking this in kind of an extreme left field.

Why do you think that?

Well, because that has nothing to do with the question that I raised.

Let me ask you a question, and put it this way.

Jordan, don't get by the road.

For example, if I were to say, my son, this is Jesus, and I began to worship him and dedicate my life to him as Jesus, does he have the power to save me? Can he do what Jesus does? It's a false Jesus.

And if this church teaches you a different Jesus than is revealed in Scripture, you're worshiping a false one.

So which Scripture are you part of? Which version of the Bible?

I'm sorry, I'm trying to figure out what you're saying.

Which version of the Bible do you preach or do you read from?

Well, if I need to, I just go back to the original Greek or Hebrew. I've got a copy of that in my bag.

We believe in the King James Version.

Yeah, that's fine. And I respect that. King James Version is a good translation.

In fact, I just finished that days ago.

So the Jesus in the King James Version isn't the same Jesus that you preach of?

No, absolutely.

Because that's who we preach of.

Well, just to make sure you understand where I'm coming from. In Colossians 1 .16, it says that Jesus created all things. For by him were all things created in the heavens and in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

That's all the angels. All things were created by him, right? But in Mormonism, Joseph Smith taught, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

I'll refute that idea. So take away the veils that you can see. And that Jesus Christ is a created God after Elohim. And Elohim had gods before him. But just as one scripture, just so you can see my heart on this, as a Christian.

Isaiah 43 .10, God says, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So the God of the Bible says there's no gods formed before him, none after him. He's the first and the last.

He's the only God. But Joseph taught that there were many gods before God. And you and I can become gods one day. That's a different God.

And what do you think he means by that when he says that?

I'll quote him. King Follett Discourse, he says, God was once as we are now and as an exalted man, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens. He says that is the great secret. He says, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God.

He says, we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. That's what Christians believe. He says, I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. He says, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you.

So, and Lorenzo Snow, the famous, we all know, the Mormon quote from the Mormon prophet where he says, As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. So there are many gods before God. You can become a God one day.

And the Christians have always been saying since your church began, Guys, God has said through 66 books of the Bible, that there's no gods before him, none after him. Joseph's clearly contradicting what God says.

So what if, what if there were, what if there were a prophet today that said, I received this revelation from God, that says that there can be gods after. Would you, would you believe that if, if let's say the prophet of your church had said that, directly from God, would you believe that?

You bring up a very good question. It's a valid question. But the answer to your question is already answered in Deuteronomy 13. God protected Israel and had to warn them against false prophets. He protected them in Deuteronomy 13, that even if a prophet had signs or wonders, but they led you after other gods, other than God, how God had already revealed himself, if he contradicted God, changed things about God, led you after a different God, that's a false prophet.

So one of the ways you know a false prophet is, if he leads you after a different God, then God has already revealed himself, he's a false prophet. So, for example, like Jesus. If Jesus had, if Jesus had taught differently, in the sense of contradicted God in the Old Testament, clearly you have to reject Jesus as a false prophet.

So the Christian's main contention is that, biblically speaking, Joseph failed the test of a prophet. He had, he had false prophecies, he had false teaching about God, and that's why we're concerned. It's not at all, I want you to know, it's not at all malicious, it's because we care about you.

I don't feel like you're caring about anybody when you go to their, their place that they keep sacred, and you're trying to give out sacred literature.

We would never do that to you.

And it's not something that we would do to you or your religion, we would respect you as you teach and whatever.

That's the spirit of contention.

That's contention.

The Bible commands us to earnestly contend.

So what does the Bible say about the spirit of contention?

It says, no, that's what Mormonism teaches.

Contention is of the...

The devil, and Mormonism teaches that. Mormonism teaches that. That's not in the Bible. That's not in the Bible.

Where does it teach that?

Your religion teaches that. The Bible doesn't teach. Contention is of the devil. As a matter of fact, the Bible commands us to earnestly contend for the faith. So the Bible actually commands...

You know, and I must apologize for not knowing my scriptures exactly.

That's okay. That's okay. I'm not, I'm not holding that against you.

But I know it's in the Bible.

Yeah, well, contention is of the devil is not in scripture. And I just encourage you to see that, so you can...

Well, you're being contentious by coming on our property and doing this. We would never do that to you.

How do you feel about contention?

You're in the wrong.

Well, here's the thing.

Okay, you're in the wrong.

Do you feel like contention is a price to them?

The Bible, well, 1 Peter 3 -15 commands Christians to always be ready to give a reasoned defense for the hopeless willingness of everyone who asks. Give a gentleness and respect. And I hope I'm doing that with you right now.

Are you defending right now, or am I defending?

Well, we're coming here to reason together through the scriptures.

So you're coming here to actually spark a conversation?

Reason from the scriptures.

Of contention.

Reason from the scriptures. For example, in Acts chapter 9...

Because I didn't come to you, and I didn't come to you with...

Well, you were on your mission, though.

No, but I didn't come to you right now.

Do you have missionaries in your religion?

Oh, sure.

Are you being a missionary right now?

Sure.

Okay, so there you go. No, my point was... He didn't do anything wrong, and you didn't do anything wrong.

No, no, no, that's not what I was saying, man. That's not what I was saying at all. What I meant was that you did go door-to-door to let people know that God...

And people had the chance to either accept what I wanted to say or not. I didn't go to their churches out of respect for them.

But you went to their door and told people that all their creeds of abomination, all their professors are corrupt. You joined none of the churches because they were all. What?

Wrong.

But do you know that we also preach that not everybody that's LDS is... I mean, when the Savior comes... Is still a good person. There's other religions that are going to survive when he comes for the second coming.

Well, what did Brigham say?

It's not just Zodiac people that are going to survive.

Well, okay, I respect that, but Brigham Young said this. He contradicted that. Brigham Young said that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God, mansion where God and Christ are, without the express consent in him as their passport into the mansion where God and Christ are.

Really? Because Joseph Smith has never told me that I'm going to enter.

And he's never given me the consent. Brigham Young said, basically, you've got to have Joseph's consent to get into the mansion where God and Christ are. That's a Brigham talk.

Okay, I haven't had his consent yet, but I feel like I'm going to.

But you see, the point there was that you need to have Joseph and his consent to enter into the mansion where God and Christ are.

Well, I hope that you're as well-versed in your religion as you are in ours. And I would suggest that you preach more about your religion.

I'm a pastor. I have a church, and we preach all the time.

And do all the research you can on yours. And maybe let people worship how, when, and where they may.

No, you have the freedom to worship whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you're right or you're following the right God.

And it doesn't mean that you're right.

That's why you and I should get together.

You're coming here and saying that I'm right, and you're wrong, and here's why you're wrong. And I have never said one reason why you're wrong.

But don't you think you should, though, considering that in the Book of Mormon it says there are two churches, the church of God and the church of the devil? So you're either part of the church of God versus the Mormon church or the church of the devil.

Correct?

You know, I think you're totally taking it out of context.

I can quote it for you if you like.

And, of course, that's what you want to do right now, because you're trying to contend.

Well, let me ask you a question. Would you say that it was wrong for Paul to...

You're actually saying that I would look at my neighbor, because they're not Mormon, and I'm going to say, you guys are going to hell. Sorry.

Didn't Joseph.

But that's not what we believe.

Okay, well, explain.

It's so amazing that you're telling me what I believe.

Let me quote to you what Joseph says, and you explain it to me. What does. All the churches are wrong, all their creeds, all their teachings are an abomination,.

All the professors are corrupt?

What's that mean? Can you just explain that to me?

What if you took it out of context, and maybe if you said, what if all the churches are wrong to an extent of their religion? You're adding a lot to that text. He didn't say that they are all wrong in every aspect.

He might have said that maybe through the apostasy of the...

So there was an apostasy?

Yes.

Thank you. So I'm part of an apostate church?

I think a lot of people are. I think everybody was.

So thank you. Now you're being honest. So there was an apostasy, the church fell, and all our creeds are an abomination, all the professors are corrupt.

You do agree with that?

Tell me where you received prophecy once there was apostasy.

Where do you receive it from?

I'm curious what you mean by that. Could you just explain what you mean?

Prophecy, where you receive a revelation through a prophet or...

Well, the Bible says, 2 Timothy 3 .16, that all scripture is God breathed. It is from his mouth. So what you have in his word is from God, it's God breathed. And Peter says that scripture came about because holy men of God were moved, and they wrote as they were carried along with the Holy Spirit.

So what you have here is the revelation from God that you have to test Joseph's revelation by. If Joseph comes 2 ,000 years after Christ, after this revelation is complete, and he flatly contradicts this revelation, who's right, God or Joseph?

I really can't. I really don't understand.

That's okay. Here, just do this.

My number's on here. You can get ahold of me.

Well, we are not going to be a part of your religion because you are being contentious.

I couldn't be a part of a religion that goes in front of other people.

If you religiously tell them that they're wrong, I couldn't be a part of it.

And I respect that. I respect that.

That's very wrong.

That's okay.

I'm sorry to be able to tell you guys that.

Would you say one thing?

I think it's sad.

Do you think it's wrong? Was it wrong for Paul to go into the synagogue?

You guys aren't gathering people that aren't in your fold?

A moment ago, I'm not gathering people.

You're being dishonest.

Ma 'am, I told you that it was your question.

I'm sorry that my kids had to see this.

That's okay. God bless you guys.

Good luck with you.

God bless you guys.