May 6, 2021 Show with Blake Kenaum on “Navigating Church Difficulties Related to Tyrannical Government Restrictions”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this sixth day of May 2021.

I'm thrilled to have on the program for the very first time ever, Blake Keenum, pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada, which is a part of the network of churches of Anchored in Truth Ministries, a new sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and is also a church plant of Grace Life Church in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

Today, we are going to be addressing with Pastor Blake, navigating church difficulties related to tyrannical government restrictions. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever, the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor, Blake Keenum.

Hi, Chris. Thank you for having me.

And am I pronouncing your name correctly?

You know, I'm quite surprised. You did.

Well, tell our listeners about Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada.

Okay. Manitoba is a province in central Canada, located just north, and our church is about two million Americans. I've had the privilege for two years now. This church has been a part of the Anchored in Truth Network for, I want to say, a number of years.

I would be guessing to guess, but somewhere between five and ten years, the church has been associated with them. And in 2018, my church, Grace Life Church in Muscle Shoals, ordained and put me here to take over and already kind of did a revival of the church at that point.

Great. And what would be the theological makeup of Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba?

Well, that's music to my ears.

Well, if anybody wants more information about Grace Life Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada, and we do have a lot of listeners in Canada, our website is selkirk .org, which is the Scottish word for church, gbc .org, s-e-l-k-i-r-k gbc .org.

And if you want more information also about the ministry involved in planting this church, that's Anchored in Truth Ministries, a new sponsor of this program. You'll be hearing their ads during the program.

But anchoredintruth .org, anchoredintruth .org is their website. And also the Grace Life Church of Muscle Shoals, Alabama can be found at gracelifeshoals .org, gracelifeshoals .org. We have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion radio, Pastor Blake, whenever we have a first time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved.

Them. So let's hear your story. Yeah, well, if I could summarize it, I would say God is my parents and my entire childhood there. And honestly, I struggled with it later in life. I believe the Lord began working on my heart when I was nine years old.

And when I was nine years old, I cried out to the Lord and sought him to save me. And I believe he did because not only did he give me peace in my heart, almost immediately, I began to see immediate changes in my life, even at that early age.

God began to give me a new desire for the things of the Lord, his word, something I've only seen. And so I was nine years old. That wasn't the end of everything. Being in my late teens, God began working on me that I should do with my life.

And through a series of events, I couldn't go into all of them with strong desire to claim into gospel and ministering. From the age of 16, I've been on the path of ministry. Took me a while, probably longer than others.

Just at the age of 30, I finally began my first senior pastorate. And to give you a little bit of back story, I got to studying theology and seminary and looking at things that I couldn't make sense of.

And he helped me find the preaching of Jeff Noblitt. I don't know if you've ever heard his, he has a famous sermon called Election,.

Pure and Simple. Have you ever heard of that one? No, I have not. I've heard about Brother.

Noblitt, but I have not heard the sermon yet. Well, at one time, I want to say it was pretty popular on sermon audio. And here I am, I don't know, the only thing I've been told about Calvinism and the doctrines of grace is that it's heresy and they're heretics.

You don't need to have anything to do with them. I'm in my early 20s and have theological education. So I have all these inward counsel about that time. Wouldn't you know it, every pastor that the Lord just, I began to hear Biblicals actually go investigate those men about what their doctrine was and what their belief was.

After about a year of that, I finally sat down and said, I need to examine what Calvinism actually is. So I did, and I listened to Brother Jeff Sermon on Election, Pure and Simple. I listened to others.

I don't know if you've ever heard of John Reisinger.

Oh yeah. Well, first of all, Ernie, he is the one that pronounced his last name Reisinger, even though his brother John pronounced it Reisinger. But Ernie did that later in life, by the way, because he found out that that was apparently the correct German pronunciation.

So he began pronouncing his name Reisinger. Ernie Reisinger is the founder of the church where I am a member. He founded Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania in the 1950s, where I am a member.

I have been a member since 2015, after relocating from New York to Pennsylvania. Ernie later moved on in the 60s, I believe, to Cape Coral, Florida, and for many years was in leadership along with Tom Askell at the Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

But his brother, John Reisinger, he preferred that pronunciation, the one that he was raised with, he ran for many years a conference that I attended many times called the John Bunyan Conference. Actually, it was typically shortened to just being the Bunyan Conference.

And I usually call it the John Bunyan Conference, so people don't think I'm talking about a conference for podiatrists or something. So instead of calling it the Bunyan Conference, I call it the John Bunyan Conference.

But I went to that many times, and they were brothers, blood brothers, who came to the Doctrines of Grace, and they parted company when it came to the divide over the Covenantal Reformed Baptist theology, which was Ernie's adopted approach to Calvinism, and what later became and is currently known as New Covenant theology, the theology espoused by John.

Both men are in heaven, so they both know what the truth is over that debate now. But they had that conflict with each other for many decades, unfortunately. But yeah, to answer your question, yeah, I know who they are.

Well, you just educated me a little bit. All I knew is that they were guys on Sermon Audio who were doping my eyes. I mean, I had to leave, and I never heard a biblically sound exposition like that before.

I didn't hear bad preaching. The solid issues that I had in my personal walk with the Lord's Scriptures and giving me, that says the world. I attribute that because they had a good, solid foundation of doctrine, and the Doctrines of Grace, and a high view of the church.

And so I spent five years at that church, invigorated and taught the Word of God and mentored how they sent me up here to pastor. Well, I loved hearing it. And I'm going to.

Give our listeners our email address if they have any questions about our topic today, Navigating Church Difficulties Related to Tyrannical Government Restrictions. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, first of all, why don't you let our listeners know about how Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada has been able to maintain an existence there ever since it seems the COVID epidemic or pandemic has made Canada seem more like the Soviet Union before the Iron Curtain fell.

It's been quite troubling to see what's happening to churches there, especially the one that comes immediately to mind is the church that probably has gotten more airtime in the news in regard to the government coming down hard on them.

That's the church where Pastor Jim Coates is the pastor, I believe, in Ontario. I interviewed his attorney over this issue, but how have you been able to get by?

Well, the lead guys in the church, I'd be talking to you today, and they really appreciated your title, Navigating, as in we are still, he's a good description. And the short answer is that it's been a really challenging but blessed time to get where we are.

We have decided that the church is not under the jurisdiction of the province of Manitoba or the country of Canada, and as such, they don't have any authority to dictate to us the terms or the manner in which we worship.

Praise God. It tells of everything fluctuating to another because it doesn't seem to indicate that our country is going to do anything but what they're doing right now.

Now, have you remained open, or did you close for a season? How is that situation being handled as far as restrictions on public worship?

Well, the short answer is we closed and tried to abide by all of the restrictions that were possible, and we really did. Up until November at Manitow, they just got some kind of lack in the realm of what my parents in Mississippi experienced.

There, the governments didn't come down hard on churches, but from the get-go with us, from March of 2020, the government came down and said, you will do what we say, and they came down with a hard line against churches, and so we tried to play ball with them for a while and tried to say, because we thought this is going to be temporary, they're not going to, you know, everybody really understood what was going on.

We had an immediate knee-jerk reaction. We spent the greater part of last year trying to abide by and do the best we can to work with our government. I think I once had a lot of counselors in my corner through the Anchored in Truth Network who advised me, say, yes, this is wrong, but be patient.

Don't—after the beginning of 2021 in January, we sat down, and we had probably our—we finally had to draw a line in the sand and say we must begin prioritizing the needs, the spiritual needs of our people.

We were beginning to experience and feel not only the responsibility we had to our church. Many members were—they were getting distant. Not only that, I had a brother the other day who prayed in a prayer meeting.

He said, brother, thank you that my church is open today. How much I was slipping away from you. In the beginning of January, we counted the cost, and we evaluated that the cost before God, it opened in, and we haven't closed.

By the way, folks, I made an error when I was mentioning Pastor James Coates, his church where he serves as a pastor, pastor teacher, Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, not Ontario. I want to apologize for that.

Just out of curiosity, I know that here in the United States, there is a wide variety of ways, it seems, in which the local governments have been mandating restrictions and so forth during this COVID hysteria.

Red states typically being far more lenient or even absent of restrictions, those being the conservative or more dominated by conservatives and Republicans, and the blue states being more dominated by Democrats and liberals being more strict.

What about the difference between where you are, for instance, and Alberta, Canada, and other places in Canada? What are the ranges of severity in regard to these mandates?

It's fluctuating province. Not of any province at any time during this whole pandemic. That's Ontario. In November, enacted what was then the most severe restriction. This has been the both Manitoba and Alberta are the conservative province.

You would call the red states. They have now, even in our province, they have levied great fines against certain churches.

Now, how is that explained? Why is there a difference between the United States' typical attitude towards this in regard to a conservative approach being more lenient, and just north of us, the northern part of the North American continent, you folks seem to have a reverse.

Situation. Why is that? I don't know that I can honestly give you a fuller answer to that. I don't have a, but I can relate to you what one brother said. I heard him say it in a sermon or where, and he explained how that you need to see in terms of that the government has a vested interest.

Someone told me the other day that, for example, Alberta, where James Coates is, their province and their yearly budget and the government budget. Now, I haven't verified that to back that up, but because the government is in control of health care, they feel inclined to assert they're the ones having to pay.

You're saying the more conservative areas of Canada.

Politically are also simultaneously more left in the area of socialized medicine? Is that what you.

Mean? More left in conservative states, yes. More seasoned Canadians. Oh, that's right. You're a.

Mississippian. By the way, how close are you to Laurel, or should I say were, how close were you to Laurel, Mississippi? It's the only city in Mississippi I've visited. Good ways. Good ways. Okay. I went to the Deep South Founders Conference there, manned an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trippin's Iron Radio.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question for our guest, and his name is Blake Knaum, or Kinaum, or Keenum. Now, see, I pronounced it correctly. Now, I'm forgetting how to pronounce it.

It's Keenum, right? Correct. We have a question for our guest, Blake Keenum of Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada, on navigating church difficulties related to tyrannical government restrictions.

Send us an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and as always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Our guest today is Blake Keenum of Grace Baptist Church of Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada, which is a part of the network of churches of Anchored in Truth Ministries and a church plant of Grace Life Church of Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

We are addressing the theme, Navigating Church Difficulties Related to Tyrannical Government Restrictions. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And going back to where we left off, you have refused, after that initial postponing, if you will, of live public gatherings for worship, you have refused to shut down after that. And have there been repercussions by the government?

This was in our province in late 2020 where a church was opening against guidelines and incurred upwards of $30 ,000 in fines. And I think it had even been threatened, we did not get an expecting shutdown and we'd have to do like James Coach Church and go into, bonds were beginning to grow lax.

Weeks of monitoring us, they left us alone. It was eased up enough so that we were not really in conflict, but I'm sad to report that our province just went backwards and has gone into what I would call an almost lockdown.

Currently, right now, churches can only have 10 people in a building. If you have any more than that, you're fined for that. And so that's been about two weeks ago that happened. And I don't really know which way it's going.

There doesn't seem to be a break to this. They keep moving the goalposts. And so it's meeting and it's against the law. To me to say that, that me and my church family gathering together on Sunday mornings is illegal.

We could experience fines of up to $5 ,000 for just for every time we meet and then $25 and $50 for me personally. Well, praise God for that. And just like a lot of.

Things in this life, there are differences of opinion, very stark contrasts amongst believers over these issues on the level of obedience that a church or an individual Christian must demonstrate towards governing authorities, even when we disagree with the mandates.

These differences of opinion have even split churches, even churches that I am personally aware of, not far from where I'm sitting. And there is definitely a uncomfortable measure of strife and tension and debate and dispute over these issues, over these disagreements.

Has everyone in your congregation been fairly unanimous in agreeing with the elders on their approach to this? Or have there been those who either have left or are still putting up an argument that you've got to be more obedient to the.

Governing authorities? We laid out a biblical case by the elders. So the church felt this is the direction we should go. And I'm happy to report that 75 but yes, we have had some conflict as a result.

Even faithful prominent members of mine, and how you described that, that is probably one of the major difficulties that's come out.

Well, navigating church difficulties related to tyrannical government restrictions is our topic. And go through those difficulties and how you as leaders of your congregation have chosen, being led by the Word of God and the Spirit of God, to navigate those difficulties.

Tell us about the approach that you have decided unanimously as leaders to follow, believing that God is on your side in that decision, or those decisions plural. What would be some of the difficulties that have been raised?

And tell us about some of.

Your approaches to navigating them. Yeah, so I think where to begin, because they're so varied and they spread out. The hurdle we had to get over is that we were not violating Romans 13 by disobeying our government in this way.

We had to think through really hard to say that in retrospect, that all the things that have happened to our congregation over the last year, our benefit and our good. The psalmist in Psalm 119 said, it was good for me that I was afflicted, that I may learn your statutes.

I may learn to keep your statutes. And honestly, before this year, we hadn't thought really, had to meditate on the relationship between church and state. Had to deal with, really make sure you're studied, and should we just be content with issues that have come up, called by God to obey the state.

Pragmatic, worldly-wise approach to evangelism. A bad witness to our community. Because the prevailing notion around propaganda by our media is that the coronavirus and the measures that our government have enacted are appropriate and justified.

Which if you actually do your own research and study this, the prevailing notion of our society in Canada right now is that we love these restrictions. The guy was just gaslighting. He said, you're just a rebellion and independent American.

That's what he said to me. We could be using this money to support missionaries. Now, what exactly is the bad use of finances? Well, we were accepting the risk of thousands of dollars worth of funds that our church may.

Be liable to pay. Oh, you mean, oh, I see what you're saying. They were being hypothetical. They were being hypothetical that you would be fine, but that never actually happened yet.

Not yet. Not yet. But God to bear that we had some issues with the pragmatic accommodation for our benefit, because those things became a little bit. I haven't heard a season why a church should not be open, or a church not to be open.

That was not a unbalanced housing, back to why I'm on your broadcast. And we were really concerned about a network of churches for me back in and had the ability to call 40 years in ministry. Again, investigated, I began to lay out our case and what we were looking at.

And without it, you're in grounds of scripture, you're in no clear violation of the scriptures. We are 100 behind you, we'll support you. Whatever you need, we'll be here to help you. And, and maybe I should be ashamed to say this, but I don't know that I had the courage and give you my responses, how I see.

Oh, definitely. These were things and we were wrestling. Tom brother, they don't know how to wait through execution. That was the chief one singled out by our government, disobey the government. And what the, what the principle was there is that unless the government is trying to infringe on the gospel, we have to obey them.

No matter who you, but at the moment for me, that was tricky because I had to think, that's true. The government's not censoring us. They're not telling us we can't preach the gospel. We can preach it on zoom, quote unquote.

They're only saying, we need you for a thing from gathering in one. How did, so we answered that we came to a resolution about that because we determined that was a, that was a romantic view of persecution.

We had brothers who would talk about, and therefore we should not have, we don't have to be open and we don't have to be public that Christians in China. And that's just, I don't really understand what they were trying to, how they were going to compare.

Historically, brother, we researched and lived and Christians were, have never been, have never often been perspective. They were Christian. Their ideals come into conflict with the cult, their culture or their government that was then was in power.

Right. Like the Romans even in the first century were only persecuting the church if they did not.

Also bow to Caesar in addition to Christ. Yeah. Perfect example right there. That example, uh, they could, they were not persecuted per se because they were Christian. They were persecuted because they could not pinch incense and say Caesar was Lord.

And again, the same situation.

Exists today with militant Hinduism. Uh, Hindus, no matter how militant they are, could not care less if you worship Christ. But depending upon how militant they are and where you live, a Hindu can persecute you very violently, even to the point of death.

If you say that Jesus is the only true God that is worthy of worship and that all other gods are false and to worship any other God is idolatry. That's what will get the militant Hindu.

To possibly torture or kill you. Absolutely. Yeah. And even the example that was railed at me a lot from China, they said, well, China, look at that. They're persecuting Christians, but I got to investigating that because it's, it's only a couple of years old where we had an example of that.

And our research in China is not about and isolating them to try to get them out of the country, targeting all dissenters. In fact, in fact, we have to pick up right where you left.

Off about China persecuting dissenters because we have to go to our midway break right now. So just remember where you left off there and we'll pick up when we return and please be patient with us during the midway break folks, because it is longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida.

So they air their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of the show while we simultaneously air globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely, write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers.

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