Classic Friday: The Pactum with Mike Abendroth (Part 1)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and today we have a special show for you. Pat Abendroth was here, and we recorded some no-co shows. We did a Sunday school interview together.

Both of those have been played on No Compromise Radio, and we recorded a Pactam episode to be played on the Pactam, and it was about books, books, books, or some kind of Select a Book or Spinarama Book or something, I don�t know what it was.

But today�s part one of that show that�s on the Pactam, and it�s going to be played on No Compromise Radio.

Enjoy. Welcome to the Pactam. I�m Pat Abendroth, and today we are going to do Bible roulette. No, we�re not. We�re going to do book roulette with No Compromise Radio. I wonder what that�s going to be.

Well, I�m not only Pat Abendroth, ready to do library� I can�t even say it. Library roulette with No Compromise Radio. I�m joined together in the studio with Mike Grimes. Hey, Mike.

How�s it going?

Well, I�m just wondering if I am going to have to do a new guitar intro, because I�ve been practicing this guitar thing for a long, long time.

As a trained musician, Mike Grimes.

Right.

But you sound like Mike Abendroth.

And I know kind of, Pat, you like this edgy kind of style, so that�s why I did what I did with the guitar for the opening for the Pactam.

Oh, good.

Copping Rolling Stones, Exile on Main Street, inspired. That�s where that came from, as a matter of fact. I am with Mike Abendroth, not Mike Grimes.

But I like Mike Grimes a lot.

You do.

Right.

And every time it�s Pat and Mike, you think of yourself.

Because I�m narcissistic.

It is great to have Mike Abendroth on the program today. He�s my older brother. He�s the first guest we�ve ever had, and now he�s the first guest we�ve had twice. No, maybe not twice. Chris Peterson�s maybe been on twice.

But that doesn�t count. He�s staff.

He�s in-house.

He has to do it.

He does.

I do it because you send me the royalty check.

It�s true.

Venmo at Mike.

Mike Abendroth is the pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church. He�s also the host of No Compromise Radio. He�s also an author. He�s a dad. He�s my brother. He�s a citizen. Do you get the senior discount yet?

At some places, like the other day I didn�t for the train station in New York at Grand Central. You have to be 65. But other places, maybe movies and stuff.

So he�s not a senior citizen as far as New York is concerned.

Right.

Well, I showed him the card and instead of the AARP, it said NRA, and the guy said no.

Speaking of New York, we were just together in New York City, Manhattan. What were we doing?

Andy Woodard is the pastor there at Providence Baptist Church, Reformed Baptist Church. He had a conference and you were speaking, I was speaking, John Benziger and other men.

Were there.

And then we had two nights and walked around and saw rats the size of cats and cats the size of dogs.

All at the same time in the same place.

And roaches that were big enough that I guess if you were hungry, it was like the size of a protein bar.

It was pretty intense. And we were in Manhattan in the nice part of town.

We got to see St. Patrick's Cathedral. I said to Pat, listen, we're going to go in here. And they've got these little alcoves behind the main sanctuary area. And St. Joseph is there and St. Mother Teresa is there and St. So-and-so is there.

You can have a prayer for the face of Jesus if you want. But the big enclave.

But you were with St. Patrick.

I actually was.

Just so you know.

But Mary, she got the biggest enclave.

The queen of heaven was definitely.

She's not a co-meteoratrix. No, no, no. But she just gets the good stuff.

She got the good stuff. It was fascinating.

You could put your credit card in 50 bucks.

I think there was a $10 option and a 25 and a 50. But I would have done it if I could have gotten a receipt to show Peter at the pearly gates. But there are no receipts. You just had to make the donation.

I was just waiting for a bunch of people to come up behind me and then I was going to go up and pretend like I did it so then they would think well of me. They think I was really

That would be good. Oh boy.

What else did we do? We went to Times Square.

We did. Yeah. We did.

It was fun.

A lot of action. A lot of things going on. And the next day on the news, like a special daily update briefing on how terrible the crime is in Manhattan. So we got out of there alive. I renewed my life insurance policy from my hotel room because it had expired.

And I thought, you know, I probably should do this.

Nice. Well, I thought you did a great job at your message there that day. And then we did a little Q &A afterward and I enjoyed our time there.

It was great. So how many episodes have you done for No Compromise? Do you even know?

It's hard, Pat, because I think it's either 13 or 14 years. It's daily radio. Summers a lot of times though were reruns. And I didn't do reruns at the very beginning. But now every Friday is a rerun. Sometimes to my chagrin because they play a 10-year-old rerun and I had some weird theology or something.

I was glossable.

It's a little different.

I was lordship or something.

Yes.

But I want to say new episodes, original episodes without reruns, 3 ,200.

That's a lot of episodes.

That's a lot.

And, you know, we actually have some folks that have listened to every single one. Like Kofi, he told me he listened to every one.

Very cool.

And I thought, wow. And I think it's like the pactum. The Lord has taught us much over time, and we're no longer 30 years old, and we have things we'd like our congregations to know. And if anybody outside the congregation would know, that'd be a blessing.

And then we just talk about it. And then I don't have to, and you don't have to, jam our ideas about theonomy into a sermon,.

Right?

We just do a whole thing critiquing theonomy.

It's a good outlet and a good teaching tool so we don't have to squeeze it into this sermon that's supposed to be about something else.

Right, right.

And I think I've probably done that before. I've been so bugged, maybe with some righteous indignation about a topic, and then it finds its way into the sermon. And then now I don't have to do that. NoCo's my outlet.

Perfect. I learned that from you. Good reason to do it.

Sometimes people ask my wife, do you listen to NoCo? And she said, of course not. I live with NoCo.

She's Mrs. NoCo. Mrs. No Compromise.

Does Molly listen to the pactum?

She, not every episode, but she does listen.

Okay.

She likes the funny stuff, too. Sometimes she says, I can't believe you said that, but it was funny.

Well, I've had you on No Compromise Radio lately, and you've talked about certain things and said words that I've never said on there in 3 ,500 episodes. So they'll have to listen.

I just want to enlighten all of the masses, all of the people, as Mike Grimes would say, because I know you have several listeners.

Well, I love Omaha Bible Church, and I think about the elders there, and deacons, and even some ladies that are still around that have ministered to our mother, Carla, when she.

Was sick.

And I met somebody a while ago. You probably know who it is. I've forgotten. My memory is so awful. But I think maybe they named their child Carla.

It's true.

Yep.

The Schmolls did.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So it's good. And when you're in Boston area, people love you because they love me in spite of me, and they love me in Omaha because they love you in spite of you. And it's just kind of, it's good to cross-pollinate.

It's a lot of fun. So today we are going to do library roulette. And it probably, it sounds worse than it is.

Does that require a gun permit?

It's, well, I know that we both have them. So there is that. So what I'm going to do is I just walked around Mike's library.

Oh, we're actually in Massachusetts recording this.

We are in Massachusetts recording this.

Pat, you are a, you are worldwide.

Just trying to get around.

You record in Omaha, you record in San Diego, you record in all these places, and now you're here in West Boylston, Massachusetts recording? I mean

It's hard to be famous sometimes.

The posse that you bring.

Indeed.

It's amazing. It's like H .B. Charles walking around the Shepherd's Conference. There's like 10 people following the guy.

So I have a stack of books that I pulled from Mike's library. Mike is a book guy. So, and Christians like books, they like sound doctrine, and so they like to hear other people talk about books. Mike's been a book guy ever since he's been a Christian, I know that, and it's helped me to read good books and all that sort of thing.

So I walked around his library and I pulled seven books from the shelves, and he doesn't know which books I pulled. And what I want to do is, he gets one pass, maybe that's the roulette side of things.

So there is one explosive one, and you can pull it if you want to and say, no, I don't want to talk about that. But Mike, what I want to do is pass a book over to you and have you talk, give us the title, tell us some interesting things about the book.

Maybe it could be where you bought it, how the book found you, as people say. It could be why you don't like this book, why it's a problem. Maybe there's a better book on the topic that you'd recommend.

You're a good storyteller. You are a writer and a reader. So this is like story time with Pastor Mike, No Compromise.

We need a little fake fire over there.

Oh, that's right.

Uh-huh, that would be nice. What did Lou Reed say? Something like fake fire, like fake believe love, you know, it's like...

He said a lot of things that we don't want to have you repeat on The Packed Up.

Yeah, but you repeat things on No Compromise that I would never say.

It was...

I just said the German word for exit, but you're not allowed to do it on The Packed. My crimes will be edited out.

Okay.

Okay, so first book is going to be this book. It is The Reform Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Bettner. Was she a kind theologian, do you think?

Well, you know, with Esther and Ruth, most people that write commentaries on those books, they're women, you know, Joyce Baldwin and everything. And when it comes to predestination, most people that write on predestination are female.

And I understand the connection. I get it.

Lorraine is actually... It's a man with a woman's name, we say sometimes. So talk about that book.

Well, I like men who have more feminine names. It's not always the case, but you just think, okay, Lorraine, you've got to be tough.

It's true.

A boy named Sue, you've got to be tough. The Anglican Ashley Knoll, you've got to be tough. He's tough, right?

Yeah.

Well, he's kind, but...

Hillary.

Uh-huh.

Right.

And I picked up this book. I've had a couple different copies. I opened it up, and I always keep the price on the books, right? Sometimes I've loaned books to people, which I rarely do, and they take off the price tag.

I don't want it taken off. I want to know how much I paid for it. So I paid for this book, $12, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, hardback, Erdmann's. And one of the things I love about Bettner is when I opened the book, and I can even do that now, he wants this truth to be widely disseminated.

There's a picture of John Calvin there with his little beanie thing, skullcap deal. And then the first thing that I noted in the book, I only make notes in pencil, never pens, never yellow markers, none of that, copyright 1932.

And here's what it says, Lorraine Bettner, about the doctrine of unconditional election. Anyone is at liberty to make use material from this book with or without credit. In preparing this book, the writer has received help from many sources, some acknowledged and many unacknowledged.

He believes the material herein set forth to be a true statement of Scripture's teaching, and his desire is to further not restrict its use. And that's why I love it, because here's this great doctrine that he didn't come up with, and you can see it in God choosing Israel, God choosing priests, God choosing Levites, God choosing the 12 apostles.

God is just a God who chooses, and He chooses people as well. Nobody deserves it. And he goes through this whole thing, and he goes, I want everybody to know. So quote me, don't quote me, you can have it.

So how many stars would you give the book? One out of five.

Well, let me just tell you a little story, since you said something about stories. I required this in one of my discipleship classes in this very room, and my son was 15 at the time, and so I said, Luke, I want you to be in the discipleship class.

And so he read it as well. Fast forward about seven years, he said, Dad, I need to reread the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Bettner, because the first time I read it, I wasn't a Christian.

And so I haven't read it for a long time, but what I like about Bettner is it was easy to read, it was simple, but he didn't pull punches. It is what it is, and it taught me to receive revelation from God, whether I like it or whether I don't.

Here's God teaching this truth, and it was for me to not be over Scripture, I don't like this, I want to change it, I feel uncomfortable, that's the wrong way to go. But I need to be under Scripture and say to myself, Mike, you ought to be very humble, because you're not only finite in your creature, but you're sinful.

And so if God says something in the Bible, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1, I better submit to it. That's what this book taught me.

So how many stars?

Out of how many?

Five.

I'll give it five.

I would too. I think it's a great book. I think maybe his Bible Doctrines book, maybe those were originally written articles for something like Christianity Today, and it reads that way. So, like a magazine article.

Studies in Theology, I think that's what it's called. I like the end too, I just have one post in this book, Practical Importance of the Doctrine. And I just thought, you know what, that's good, I'm just going to look down and read something that I underlined.

When a person sees himself as one of the Lord's chosen and knows that every one of his acts has an eternal significance, he realizes more clearly how serious life is, and he is fired with a new determination to make his life count for great things.

I like it.

Lorraine Bednar.

Yep, I would recommend that book for sure. His book on Roman Catholicism isn't so hot.

How about the Post Mill book?

Yeah, that one's not so hot either. So I think it's good that he critiques Roman Catholicism, but his argumentation is a little bit straw man-ish, and so wouldn't recommend that one on the pactum. Book number two, unless you choose to eject it, is what?

Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards.

And we're in Edwards' backyard here, right?

I think about 70 miles away from here, you and I have been there, is Northampton, Massachusetts.

A bastion for conservative theology.

Oh, it used to be to some degree. There are different enclaves of homosexuals who live in Provincetown and now Northampton,.

Right?

And so it's interesting to go there and you see all the rainbow stuff, and you see where his, Edwards' home used to be. And I think there's a Polish Roman Catholic church there.

I think maybe the steps are still original.

Two steps to the church is in the town.

My feet have been anointed.

Uh-huh.

There you go. And of course, we used to be big Jonathan Edwards homeboys. Of course, he's written some things that are good and right, and that's true, but I probably should have been tipped off to the fact that I think he used to just go to a study 12 hours a day and then, you know, then hang out with the kids after that kind of thing.

And I think, eh, that's not a good way to do it. I think I want you to engage with the kids more often. We went to the tomb in Princeton, right?

Yeah.

We saw where Edwards was buried. And I used to like Edwards a lot, and then I thought, huh, one of the reasons I don't like him is this book that I'm holding, Religious Affections. And it's not marked up because I haven't read this copy.

There's a CD that you can get that you can listen to it.

So what's the scoop?

Well, the scoop is, I think I know why. Here's how I came not to like Jonathan Edwards. Because he was John Piper's homeboy.

Ooh.

I had a Piper book in the stack, but I set it aside because you don't need to do that.

And so, okay, lots of people learned Calvinism from John Piper, et cetera. I get all that stuff. But just on the critique side, okay, if we're going to say saving faith is knowledge, assent, and trust, I'm all in, right?

I just say K-A-T, the only cat I like, knowledge, assent, and trust. You know something, you agree, and you trust, right? There's this aspect of, okay, it's not just intellectual, it's not just emotional, but a real trust.

And once you start adding love into that, and affections, into the definition, and I'm all for affections and love, when you're a Christian, in the category of sanctification and holy living, there's an aspect of love, I mean, of course.

But how much would I have to love God in order to be saved? Now, could I have a weak faith, a sinful faith, in a great object, the Lord Jesus? That's enough for saving faith. As long as there's knowledge, assent, and trust, you know about the death, burial, resurrection, you say that's true.

I believe it really happened in history, I'm a historian, and I think that happened, and I'm trusting my eternal life with that. But then once I add love in, which Piper does, once you add affections in, once you add treasuring God in...

How much is enough?

The real question is, how much? And of course, both you and I teach that the ground of your salvation, if you stand before God, what would you stand on before God on Judgment Day at that bar of justice?

Well, it better be perfection. That's why when we quote Westminster Shorter, perfect, entire, exact, perpetual obedience, or you do the three Ps, perfect, personal, perpetual obedience. That's the ground of salvation.

That's why Jesus had to live for us, die for our sins when we didn't do that, and was raised from the dead. There are then fruits and evidences. So don't jam the fruits and evidences of desire and treasure and love and admiration into the ground.

And therefore, that's what made me go backward and think, okay, where did Piper get this? I mean, I didn't come up with anything new. I'm a reservoir of things. Same with Piper. Where did he get it? And he got it from Edwards with all these affections.

And Edwards is trying to chronicle what goes on with a person, what are his affections. And I think just sometimes, while I'd say, yes, I now love what I used to hate and hate what I used to love, and God has given me a new heart and new affections, and 2 Corinthians chapter 5, and a new creature in Christ Jesus, I'm all for that.

But they're category mistakes.

Correct.

Right?

Right.

So that's what I was taught by studying Piper. And then I went backward to see Edwards and think, I'm not smart enough to believe if he's truly a panentheist. I don't know about that, but some people call him that.

I do know he, I'd rather pick somebody else.

Okay.

If you've got one theologian to pick, I'd pick John Owen and not Edwards.

And so just for our listeners, just so you're aware, Edwards, he's not coloring within the lines of Reformed orthodoxy when it comes to these matters. So he's the outlier, he's the deviant, he's the creative one.

So classic traditional Reformed theology, mainstream, classic covenantalism, whatever you want to call it, Edwards is not that. So he's deviating. Doesn't mean he didn't do some good things, say some good things, doesn't mean he didn't have a great mind, but we're going to give that one star.

And I know my brother would because he's my brother.

So I'm just going to say

One star for sure.

And yes, he did say some things that were good, but I just think you could do good, better, best in life. And so that leads me to the next book, which would be This is one of my favorite all time books.

So I did see Mike touch it yesterday, so it gave me a clue we could talk about it. So this next book is The Doctrine of Justification by James Buchanan. Who turned you on to this book?

I don't know.

Maybe you did.

I'm not sure.

Maybe Luke did. Maybe I just thought to myself, well, I'll give you a different illustration. Did you remember who?

Yeah.

So I was turned on to the book by Phil Johnson back when Andy Snyder was a professor at Master Seminary and he was denying the imputation of Christ's righteousness, act of obedience, and therefore undermining the doctrine of justification.

And so when I talked to Phil Johnson about it and said, what's the best book to counter in solid justification? Way back when, when he's the one I would ask, he said, I'll be Buchanan on justification.

And so that's the first time I was introduced to it.

Okay, good. Well, I can't remember who introduced me, but when I got out of seminary, I thought, all right, they can't teach you everything. I'm lacking in certain things. What am I lacking in? And I thought, I'm lacking in biblical theology.

Not theology of the Bible, but this redemptive historical view of the history of the spirit of God, working in the church, et cetera, et cetera. And so I began to read books on biblical theology, one after another, after another, to get the big picture, the redemptive historical, because I knew I was lacking.

I also thought, you know, I don't think I understood justification as well as I thought.

I did.

I need to get a bunch of books on justification and read them. As a matter of fact, years ago, when one of the admins of Master Seminary pulled me into the office and said, could we ask you some questions?

And what do you think the Master Seminary has done well? What would you suggest that we do differently? And on the critique side, I said, every student at Master Seminary, in light of Andy Snyder and other things, since John MacArthur thinks that the gospel includes the imputation of Christ's righteousness, that every student needs to take a two-hour class on justification.

And they need to read Buchanan. They need to read Calvin. They need to read the two-volume set of Horton on justification. I don't know who just published that. And I think I gave one other book on justification.

I can't remember which one. And maybe it was Owen, volume five. And that was my suggestion. And Buchanan, he's just clear, and he's well-rounded. I think of Shalom. When you think of justification, think Shalom, well-rounded, all sides covered.

What about this implication leads to that implication? If I deny this, what happens down the line?

I like that.

Yeah.

Sometimes, you know, when we're studying, we're thinking, hmm, wait a second. I don't think the New Covenant started, oh, there, where are this? Oh, but I don't know the domino effect. And I think James Buchanan will help.

This is Banner of Truth. And of course, Banner of Truth is just such a great publisher. You know, I only have really one exception with that.

Richard Baxter. And who denies this very doctrine we're talking about.

I know.

And I kept the cover on here, the paper cover on this nice cloth-bound book, because it says the Doctrine of Justification, James Buchanan. The book cover itself is blue, kind of a nice blue. But this cover, the paper cover is orange.

And when you look at all the books in my study here at church, you can easily find this book.

Orange Book. Good.

And I call him, James Buchanan, the orange man, because we love ourselves some orange.

Man.

So is there a book that you would recommend about justification over this one, or is this the ultimate when it comes to volumes?

I've not finished the Horton, so I don't know. Maybe that could be the Usurper.

The two-volume one.

The two volumes, yes. But for right now, I'd either give them Calvin, that you could read in the Institutes, or I think Nate Pikowitz just republished, just Calvin on justification, and you could pick that up and just read Calvin on the Doctrine of Justification.

You know the one I like better than this one? Not because it's essentially better, but I like J. V. Fesco's book, because he takes into account more modern controversies.

Okay, so Pat, thank you for bringing that up, because that was the other book I recommended to the Master Seminary admin guy, J. V. Fesco, Justification.

Because he's going to deal with N .T. Wright and things like that, people who weren't around during Buchanan's day. So I think one stands on the shoulders of the other.

And Fesco, I think, actually quotes Snyder and talks about maybe some dispensationalist in the footnotes about why would they not think obedience of Christ is important.

I think you're thinking of covenant justification in pastoral ministry.

I think it's in there, too. That's one of my all-time favorite books.

That book changed my life.

Yeah.

Who wrote that?

Scott Benziger or something?

Just kidding.

That's a good one, too.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.