May 29, 2025 Show with Dr. Joel Yeager, Dr. Daniel O’Roark & Ernie Springer on “A Rebuttal to the Party Line Narrative of the Coronavirus”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 29th day of May, 2025.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program three returning guests who all happen to be co-authors of the book, the very important book, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken.

And today, these three co-authors are going to be providing a rebuttal to the party-line narrative of the coronavirus by Dr. Gregory Poland, head of the Mayo Clinic's vaccine research group and PCA elder.

And let me introduce them one at a time. First of all, my own personal physician is on the program again today, Dr. Joel Yeager, founder of HeritageFamilyHealth .org in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania. Welcome back to the program, Dr. Yeager.

Thank you.

It's wonderful to be back.

And we also have joining us again, Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, a cardiologist at TrinityHeartandVascularGroup .com in Johnson City, Tennessee. Welcome back to the program, Dr. O 'Rourke.

Thank you, Chris. Very happy to join you again.

And we have also joining us again, Ernie Springer, founder of Old Paths Publications and co-author with Dr. Yeager and Dr. O 'Rourke of the aforementioned book, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, The Sacred Trust Broken.

Welcome back to the program, Ernie Springer. Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you. Well, I understand, Ernie, that you wanted to give some background information to help the audience make more sense of this very important issue that we are discussing today and to the party line narrative of the coronavirus by Dr. Gregory Poland that we are going to be rebutting today.

Yes.

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that. There are a number of people who might be listening that are not familiar with the fact that the three of us wrote a book addressing certain matters that seem to be resurfacing in Dr. Poland's article.

So let me just start off with some thoughts to set the stage for the discussion. Coronavirus or COVID -19 is a medical issue, and how the church responds to it is a theological issue. Now, these issues, however, are not mutually exclusive.

The church's role in society with its cultural awareness and mandate must inform and influence them and not the reverse. So how has the church stood up with the test given her in 2020? God who is the first cause of our redemption continues in a lead position of guidance throughout our Christian life and walk.

And isn't it marvelous that he promises us that by his Holy Spirit, through the word of God, he will lead us into all truth. The three of us, and you as well, Chris, knew this from the beginning back in 2020 and sought to be informed and directed by scripture.

Sadly, as we remember, the large majority of the confessing Christian church placed their trust upon the foundational thinking of the medical community and insisted on being led by government influence and directive rather than being led first by God's word.

Today, five years since the inception of this almost cult-like movement, we rarely hear confession of error amongst church leadership, nor that dutiful requirement for the biblical and public repentance because of the public sin they committed in locking down the church and preventing God's people from gathering for public worship.

On occasion, however, the best I encounter are men in the ministry or in church leadership who sheepishly and with a humbly bowed, and I believe sincere, state that in hindsight, that's a big word that's used, hindsight, they have come to see that certain of the actions or the extent by which they were enforced in the church may have exceeded what was right and they would do things differently if ever it happened again.

Perhaps that's a good start, yet that is a far cry from true recognition of serious sin in the exercise of their shepherding of the church to which I hold up my Bible when talking to people like that and ask them if they had one of these at the beginning of.

It all.

Now, Dr. Gregory Polin, a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America with a master's from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, of which he also serves on the Board of Directors, is continuing with his public rhetoric begun five years ago influencing at that time faculty such as David Garner and Peter Lilbach and the students at Westminster via early Westminster YouTube videos.

Presently, however, as evident in what I would call a recalcitrant manner, doubling down with opinions that appear to be uninformed, Dr. Polin is apparently either ignorant and or dismissive of the many lessons that should have been learned why the church was ill-advised in so much of its response, actions, and direction to its members.

Some were very serious, not the least of which were lockdowns, masking, suspecting the asymptomatic, ignoring the benefits realized from ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, and most seriously placing high value upon an mRNA gene shot therapy with its proven vaccine injury and sudden death, especially heart attack.

Dr. Polin remains a proponent of the very burdens that compromise Christian liberty of conscience taught in the Westminster Standards and those controlling government-influenced directives that failed to ensure without interruption the continued public gathering of God's people for assembled worship in God's house.

The leadership in the Christian church must, they absolutely must, have a sense of concern for biblical and medical ethics, including a faithful use of God's Word in its entirety, as well as an honest approach to health and medicine that does not compromise the Christian duty and necessity for upholding not just the second table of the law with regard to others, but the first and primary part that loves God and obeys his commands.

Lastly, let me just say that we hear from some today who we talk to about these things that we can't dwell on the past, that we have to put it behind us and move on. Not only are such sentiments representative of those who are uninformed, possibly weak and ignorant of facts and truth, but such sheep are evidence of biblical immaturity, a misplaced trust, and easily swayed by external influence.

Why these statements are so grossly inaccurate and likely offensive to God is because they represent a denial of truth and the neglect of glory due his name and his Word. Okay, well, I understand that the paper that is being rebutted today is titled Seven Lessons on Public Health of the Local Church.

Dr. Yeager, your whole disdain for what is being promoted here led to this collaborative effort today with all three of you men being on my program. Why don't you begin with some of these lessons, and we'll try to fit all seven of these lessons that allegedly we are to learn, and yet you believe, as has already been stated by Ernie, that Dr. Pollan doesn't seem to have learned lessons.

But if you could, start with the one-by-one, these lessons. Right.

So I actually addressed this, I mean, I read Dr. Pollan's article, which of course was published in the By Faith online multiple times when I was rebutting it, and I chose to not necessarily walk through each one, one-by-one, because they somewhat coalesced into a broader perspective.

So I can pull up his article here, if you give me one second.

Sure.

I mean, the first lesson that he mentions is the importance of gathering biblical and practical perspectives, which, I mean, we've discussed that at length in our coronavirus book, and of course, that was the whole thing that seems to have been not enabled, in other words, blocking out God's people from the house of worship.

I don't know if Ernie and Dan, if you want to comment on that, perhaps it would be better for us to just even walk through some of the things that we specifically mentioned in our rebuttal.

Yeah, sure.

I mean, I think just a couple of general comments to begin with. I think that the thing that disturbed me the most, and again, I tried very hard in the rebuttal, which was a collaborative effort, to not use the ad hominem as in attacking Dr. Pollan.

It's easy to do that in something that we disagree with, but that was neither charitable nor brotherly. But what I did do was attack the concepts, and I think the most disturbing one, I actually say for the last because it was perhaps the hardest one, the medical information is quite easy to rebut because the evidence is abounding in terms of how the narrative has just simply fallen flat on its face.

But the weaving of Scripture throughout his rebuttal was very troubling to me, and I think that is representative of what is known as Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, which was a book written by Dr. John West from the Discovery Institute, just published actually in February of this year.

I highly recommend that.

Yes, I've had him on the program to discuss the book.

Okay, wonderful. So I think the unsuspecting reader reads through Dr. Pollan's seven lessons, and it's like, wow, I think there's, I believe, I'm not 100 certain of this, but I think there's Scripture in almost each of the seven lessons, and it would appear like, wow, these are lessons until you actually step back and look at what he's really espousing.

There was a huge almost worship of science, which we can discuss that as we go along. It actually ends up being more like scientism. The second thing was, you know, almost bowing down to worship at the feet of the experts.

The third very disturbing thing was his use of the word common grace, which I think Dan and Ernie can probably speak to this a little bit more than I can as far as the historic Reformed understanding of that.

He very much thought that masking, public social distancing, the antiviral medications, and specifically the vaccine are representatives of common grace, which we of course take issue with that. And then finally, of course, what appears to me very much to be the twisting of Scripture.

So that's sort of the rebuttal in a nutshell, and we can certainly unpack the nuts and bolts of that as we get started. But perhaps the others would like to speak to those just in an introductory manner.

Yes, well, why don't we go with Dr. O 'Rourke?

Yeah, thank you, Chris. Yeah, there is a lot to unpack with all this. And I think, again, not to rehash a lot of what we spoke about when we were last on your program. I think we were on one or two times.

But I think the foundational problem with Dr. Pollan's approach is the entire pandemic, and I put that in quotes, which really from the medical aspect was founded upon the totally unsubstantiated premise of what is known as the asymptomatic super spreader.

Without getting into it here, but one of the great blessings that came out of all this is many people have begun to look at scientifically some of the previously held ideas we had. And just suffice it to say that there are many scientific problems with virology.

But in any event, given their own narrative and how they say that viruses replicate and how they are spread, basically in brief for the non-medical audience, is that the way that the hypothesis goes is that the virus enters a cell, being that viruses are technically not living organisms, they don't reproduce, they replicate by basically hijacking the nucleic acid machinery of the cell.

But it has been known for many years that the degree of sickness one has is related to the so-called viral load. So what is being claimed here is that you have many, many people walking around who are perfectly well, who were accused of being asymptomatic super spreaders.

That has theological issues, but also medically in the sense that if you have large numbers of cells affected and these cells are dying either by the virus itself or by the body's own defense mechanisms, once a certain level of tissue injury occurs, then that will lead to the symptoms.

So hopefully that makes sense. But basically the idea that we can walk around and not feeling sick at all, that we are asymptomatic super spreaders, is a notion that just has no scientific backing. On the theological side of that, it's actually quite bluntly a form of false witness, because if I feel perfectly fine under the Lord Jesus Christ in parable, made it clear that we can know that we're sick.

And again, in that context, he was talking about the sense sickness of our souls. But he used an example of seeing a physician when you're ill. And if we are not sick and we feel well, how could we possibly know whether or not we were an asymptomatic super spreader?

And most importantly, when would that ever be true that we would have any certainty? And that would be never. So the mere fact that we now mostly, except for a few people that are still clinging to the narrative, almost no one wears a mask these days.

But if this narrative is true, we should have never stopped wearing masks. Now, there's a whole host of evidence there I won't get into now as to why masks don't work. But I'm just trying to show you the logical inconsistency here.

Before I'll hand this over to Ernie, but the other last thing that really needs to be mentioned, and again, this is all public information. So like Joel, we want to treat Dr. Pullen fairly and within the parameters of the law of God.

But in his article, he did not mention in his article his many conflicts of interest. And he has made a substantial amount of money over the years through patents and royalties. He gets honoraria from a whole host of pharmaceutical companies.

So whenever a essay or a scientific paper is written, it is very imperative that your audience knows if you have any conflicts of interest. And it is very unbecoming of a professing Christian to not reveal his conflicts of interest.

So that's just a brief a couple of comments from my side and I can hand it over to Ernie. But we can follow up on this later if we feel that's necessary.

Yeah. Do you have anything to add, Ernie? Well, I just maybe just as a brief, brief follow up, but, you know, and not to get it, as Joel said, not to get into the ad hominem type of, you know, you know, criticism.

But we're not dealing with just a physician. We're dealing with someone who is a teaching elder, a minister, if you will, a rather prestigious Reformed seminary, or excuse me, a director on the board.

I mean, so we can't, as I had said in my intro, is that we can't separate the medical aspects from the theological aspects when the theologians, if you will, are the ones telling us what we should and shouldn't do.

And in this case, a prominent individual within the medical community also giving us that direction, which I guess he feels he has the authority and expertise to do so. But it's to me as a layman, it just seems very obvious that he's avoiding dealing with certain theological obligations, as, you know, Dan just mentioned about the Ninth Commandment and, you know, the asymptomatic, bearing false witness, accusing someone without facts, evidence, or truth.

And that, I can tell you personally, that has happened. And yes, we can care about the Sixth Commandment. We don't want to kill or, you know, thou shalt not murder. You know, we do care about that. But the way in which everything was done, you know, just was like the backwards, you know, you quarantine the sick, you don't quarantine the healthy.

I mean, that's, I think, been a premise throughout, you know, the ages. You know, but once again, we're focused, there's this constant focus on the second table of the law, the, you know, commands that deal with individual personal relationships and activity.

And yet, who is more important in the law? Is it the people or is it God? It's not one or the other. Both need to be understood. But, you know, you don't see within the second table, you know, you know, do not steal, you know, and I mean, you know, it's just like a basic statement.

But in the first table law, you see the love of God is throughout Scripture connected with obedience to his commands. I mean, you can just do a concordance search, basically, and you'll find almost repeatedly, you know, the evidence of love of God is following his commandments in Scripture, throughout Scripture.

And that's a major fallacy of those who have been dictating new rules and practices, or, you know, did in 2020 and 2021. And according to Dr. Poland, he would do again. And he's basically encouraging, you know, the readers of the magazine article, the seminary professors, the students at Westminster to not only follow the same course of action, but take an action that's perhaps even more strenuous, more severe.

That's what I'm getting out of his communication from his By Faith article. And By Faith is a official PCA publication? Yes, it is. Yes. And just out of curiosity, is any rebuttal permitted in that publication to what has been written by Dr.

Poland?

Well, that's a very interesting question, because I communicated directly with the editor more than once to solicit that opportunity for Joel to have his rebuttal presented, or at least part of it, you know, even if it needed to be, you know, briefly introduced and then a link to where it is housed, say, on his blog or something, but they refused to do that.

OK, well, Dr. Jaeger, I think that I would like to have things really clearly highlighted and examined that Dr. Poland may be promoting or is promoting that you strongly oppose, that you believe as a physician were the largest mistakes made by the medical community.

At least, you know, we're not Christ. We cannot read the hearts of men. We don't know how many physicians and scientists were knowingly lying about things and just doing things because of protection of their status and careers, because of financial gain.

You know, we don't necessarily know all that. But as far as what we have heard and seen in the public, what were the primary things promoted by physicians with whom you disagree that Dr. Poland is still perpetuating as positive things?

Like, let's go through them one by one. Like, for instance, the wearing of masks in public, is that something that Dr. Poland is promoting that we return to? And was that of any positive effect at all?

And perhaps even had negative effect, if you could, Dr. Jaeger. Right.

At one point, excuse me, in Dr. Poland's article, he mentions that mask wearing should be normalized in the Christian community or in the community at large during pandemics. And we outline that rather extensively in our coronavirus book.

I mean, the stark reality is that there have been several decades worth of research, including randomized controlled trials that looked at mask wearing, not just in pandemics, but even in surgical settings and that sort of thing.

And definitely showed that any efficacy is, if there is any efficacy at all, it's limited at best. We had decades of evidence. And of course, we all know that Dr. Fauci, in February of 2020, was on 60 Minutes, I believe it was, stating that Americans should not go out and buy a mask because they don't work, you know.

And then the next month, the narrative completely changed. So any thinking person should have asked, why is there a sudden change when we've had decades of research showing that they are ineffective? I mean, the virus itself, as far as the size, and we outline this in our book, is significantly smaller than the mask capacity.

He does, to his credit, mention that proper masks worn properly are effective. I do give him credit for that. And by that, he's referring to the N95 mask, which to be effective, needs to be fitted properly by someone who knows how to fit a mask.

There needs to be no facial hair involved. And of course, we know that we've seen many people with, you know, any type of mask that you might want to think of slapped over top of a beard or a mustache, which by any definition of any mask effectiveness renders it completely ineffective.

So all of the studies were clear until March of 2020, when powers that be decided that masks probably are effective. And again, they said that with no evidence to support it whatsoever. But that, of course, became the main narrative.

So unfortunately, mask wearing became, in my opinion, virtue signaling. It's I mean, if you try to go out in public again, back to Dr. O 'Rourke's thought, if I'm not sick, there's no reason for me to wear a mask because I'm not sick.

I'm not spreading anything. But just try to appear in a public space without a mask during COVID. We all know, of course, what actually happened with that. And then, of course, I mean, the negative effects of of mask wearing are quite evident from respiratory issues to infections, to inabilities, inability to see children.

I mean, it's very interesting because I believe it was in 22, 2022, the CDC began to move the goalposts for some of the developmental milestones for children, you know, in terms of how many words one should have, you know, by, say, 18 months or 24 months.

And that was basically because we saw the development of children significantly stunted. I mean, our current NIH director, Dr. Bhattacharya, did an interview on The Epoch Times back, I think, in 22 or 23, where he outlines this.

And there's quite a few studies which show that the detriment to childhood developmental skills, whether it's social or language, were significantly stunted. The school education performance was significantly stunted because now it was to be done at home.

Or if it was in a public setting, it was behind a mask. And then when people weren't allowed together, even with masks, then it was done, you know, in an isolated setting. So there's just precious little evidence, actually no evidence, that shows that mask wearing was effective in any shape or form.

So to have Dr. Poland just simply stating that mask wearing should become normal without citing any evidence, or at least without looking at the decades of evidence that we had prior showing the exact opposite, is really just flat out a lie.

There's no other way to describe it. I know Dan has done a lot of study on the mask as well. Dan, I don't know if you want to weigh in on that.

One thing I just wanted to ask you quickly before we pass the baton to Dan is you've mentioned that it impedes seeing. How would a mask do that?

Well, particularly, well, some people who have allergies, you know, there's reports of inflammation in the eye, particularly for people who wear glasses. I mean, simply the glasses fog up and it's almost impossible to see.

So I don't know that there's a direct impediment to seeing if you're not wearing glasses, although there were all sorts of allergies that were reported, but definitely for the people who were wearing glasses, it was almost impossible to wear a mask and be able to see because the glasses fogged up.

Yeah. And then one of the things that, as you may recall, was a critical point in me abandoning my original cardiologist.

Yes, I remember.

After having congestive heart failure, I was strongly, sternly rebuked by the receptionist in the waiting room of a cardiologist because I had the mask I was wearing below my nose. And the receptionist very rudely demanded that I pull the mask up above my nose.

And when I went finally into the examination room, I finally felt the relief of pulling the mask down. And my cardiologist walked in and said, how are you feeling? I said, oh, I'm feeling much better than before.

And how are you breathing? Well, I'm breathing fine when I don't have these stupid masks over my face. But when I have the mask on above my nose, it really impedes my breathing. I have a hard time breathing properly.

And he actually said, well, while you're here, please pull the mask up above your nose. That's when I knew this doctor does not care about my health or does not care about me having a very difficult time breathing.

He's just towing a party line. Is there any is there any reason on the face of the earth that a trained, licensed physician would would have that kind of attitude?

There is no reason. Now, I ask myself the question all the time how doctors actually fell into that trap. And I have not come up with a good answer other than coercion, you know, towing the party line.

But no, there's no medical reason why that would be the case.

OK, we're going to have when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to have Dr. O 'Rourke pick up on anything he cares to add about masks. And then we'll move on to perhaps even a lot more serious matter, the matter of vaccines that are being promoted.

But if anybody has a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend Chris Arnson has lined up for me on Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m. I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville.

Then on Sunday, September 21st at 130 p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme. Can we trust the Bible is the authentic and inerrant word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events for more details on the Free Pastor's Luncheon.

Visit Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com. That's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit TRBC Carlisle dot org. That's TRBC Carlisle dot org.

God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we're now back with my guests, Dr. Joel Yeager, Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke and Ernie Springer. And we are providing a rebuttal to a recent article written by a doctor physician, a PCA elder who is basically towing the party line, if you will, on the coronavirus, much to the frustration and anger of my guests today, and they are providing a rebuttal to this, and I wanted Dr. O 'Rourke to pick up where Dr. Yeager left off with anything further that you have to add about masks and not only their uselessness for the intended reason we were told to wear them and ordered to wear them and mandated to wear them, but even some of the negative consequences of habitually wearing masks.

Yeah, happy to follow up on that, Chris. I'll just briefly review section two of Dr. Poland's paper, which I have before me, and we've alluded to some of this earlier in our discussion, but Dr. Poland says research prior to and during the COVID -19 pandemic consistently demonstrated that proper masks worn properly significantly reduced the transmission of respiratory viruses.

And as Joel pointed out in his rebuttal essay, there is data going back a hundred plus years, even to the Spanish flu pandemic, which showed that that was not the case. What he's referring to here in the current situation with the coronavirus pandemic was that there were studies, but they were all modeling studies.

It was impossible to do a proper study based on scientific principles during that time. And again, he, he sort of, what he gave with the right hand, he took away with the left with his, with his provisos because the reality is it's very hard for anyone to wear a mask appropriately.

Down below, he talks about N95 masks and viral theory states that only one virus is necessary to infect the cell to ultimately cause clinical infection. So as it stands to reason, the greater that a barrier can prevent a very tiny particle from getting through, obviously other than a closed system, that's not compatible with life.

And many people are unable to wear N95 masks. Chris, in your case with a history of heart failure, I would consider them contraindicated because many people will have a drop in their oxygen. They will have an increase in their carbon dioxide, let alone all the different fungi and bacteria that become trapped on the mask, which the patient that's wearing it is breathing in is also very highly problematic.

So unfortunately, this leaves us with a conclusion that either Dr. Poland is very ignorant of these things, which given his credentials seemed unlikely, or he's being untruthful here and pushing an agenda.

The other issue with this, too, is there's a group of researchers, they've been around for quite a long period of time, and it's a, it's a body of researchers from around the world, and it's called the Cochrane Collaboration.

And they are researchers of the research, a whole host of topics, not just related to infectious diseases and heart disease, all kinds of things. But what they do is they look at the quality of the research, and most research is of very poor quality for a whole host of reasons.