May 29, 2025 Show with Dr. Joel Yeager, Dr. Daniel O’Roark & Ernie Springer on “A Rebuttal to the Party Line Narrative of the Coronavirus”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 29th day of May, 2025.

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program three returning guests who all happen to be co -authors of the book, the very important book,

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Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken.

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And today, these three co -authors are going to be providing a rebuttal to the party -line narrative of the coronavirus by Dr.

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Gregory Poland, head of the Mayo Clinic's Vaccine Research Group and PCA Elder.

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And let me introduce them one at a time. First of all, my own personal physician is on the program again today,

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Dr. Joel Yeager, founder of HeritageFamilyHealth .org in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania.

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Welcome back to the program, Dr. Yeager. Thank you. It's wonderful to be back. We also have joining us again,

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Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, a cardiologist at trinityheartandvasculargroup .com

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in Johnson City, Tennessee. Welcome back to the program, Dr. O 'Rourke. Thank you,

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Chris. Very happy to join you again. And we have also joining us again, Ernie Springer, founder of Old Paths Publications and co -author with Dr.

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Yeager and Dr. O 'Rourke of the aforementioned book, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the

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Christian Church, The Sacred Trust Broken. Welcome back to the program, Ernie Springer.

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Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you. Well, I understand, Ernie, that you wanted to give some background information to help the audience make more sense of this very important issue that we are discussing today and to the party line narrative of the coronavirus by Dr.

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Gregory Poland that we are going to be rebutting today. Yes.

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Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that. There are a number of people who might be listening that are not familiar with the fact that the three of us wrote a book addressing certain matters that seem to be resurfacing in Dr.

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Poland's article. So let me just start off with some thoughts to set the stage for the discussion.

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Coronavirus or COVID -19 is a medical issue, and how the church responds to it is a theological issue.

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Now, these issues, however, are not mutually exclusive. The church's role in society with its cultural awareness mandate must inform and influence them and not the reverse.

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So how has the church stood up with the test given her in 2020? God, who is the first cause of our redemption, continues an elite position of guidance throughout our

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Christian life and walk. And isn't it marvelous that he promises us that by his

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Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, he will lead us into all truth? The three of us, and you as well,

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Chris, knew this from the beginning back in 2020 and sought to be informed and directed by Scripture.

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Sadly, as we remember, the large majority of the confessing Christian church placed their trust upon the foundational thinking of the medical community and insisted on being led by government influence and directive rather than being led first by God's Word.

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Today, five years since the inception of this almost cult -like movement, we rarely hear confession of error amongst church leadership, nor that dutiful requirement for the biblical and public repentance because of the public sin they committed in locking down the church and preventing

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God's people from gathering for public worship. On occasion, however, the best

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I encounter are men in the ministry or in church leadership who sheepishly and with a humbly bowed, and I believe sincere, state that in hindsight, that's a big word to choose, hindsight, they have come to see that certain of the actions or the extent by which they were enforced in the church may have exceeded what was right and they would do things differently if ever it happened again.

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Perhaps that's a good start, yet that is a far cry from true recognition of serious sin in the exercise of their shepherding of the church to which

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I hold up my Bible when talking to people like that and ask them if they had one of these at the beginning of it all.

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Now, Dr. Gregory Poland, a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America with a master's from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, of which he also serves on the

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Board of Directors, is continuing with his public rhetoric begun five years ago, influencing, at that time, faculty such as David Garner and Peter Lilbach and the students at Westminster via early

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Westminster YouTube videos. Presently, however, as evident in what

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I would call a recalcitrant manner, doubling down with opinions that appear to be uninformed,

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Dr. Poland is apparently either ignorant and or dismissive of the many lessons that should have been learned why the church was ill -advised in so much of its response, actions, and direction to its members.

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Some were very serious, not the least of which were lockdowns, masking, suspecting the asymptomatic, ignoring the benefits realized from ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, and most seriously, placing high value upon an mRNA gene shot therapy with its proven vaccine injury and sudden death, especially heart attack.

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Dr. Poland remains a proponent of the very burdens that compromise

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Christian liberty of conscience taught in the Westminster Standards and those controlling government -influenced directives that failed to ensure, without interruption, the continued public gathering of God's people for assembled worship in God's house.

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The leadership in the Christian church must, they absolutely must, have a sense of concern for biblical and medical ethics, including a faithful use of God's Word in its entirety, as well as an honest approach to health and medicine that does not compromise the

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Christian duty and necessity for upholding not just the second table of the law with regard to others, but the first and primary part that loves

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God and obeys his commands. Lastly, let me just say that we hear from some today who we talk to about these things that we can't dwell on the past, that we have to put it behind us and move on.

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Not only are such sentiments representative of those who are uninformed, possibly weak and ignorant of facts and truth, but such sheep are evidence of biblical immaturity, a misplaced trust, and easily swayed by external influence.

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Why these statements are so grossly inaccurate and likely offensive to God is because they represent a denial of truth and the neglect of glory to his name and his

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Word. Okay, well, I understand that the paper that is being rebutted today is titled,

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Seven Lessons on Public Health of the Local Church. Dr. Yeager, your whole disdain for what is being promoted here led to this collaborative effort today with all three of you men being on my program.

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Why don't you begin with some of these lessons, and we'll try to fit all seven of these lessons that allegedly we are to learn, and yet you believe, as has already been stated by Ernie, that Dr.

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Poland doesn't seem to have learned lessons. But if you could, start with one by one, these lessons.

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Right. So, I actually addressed this. I mean, I read Dr. Poland's article, which of course was published in the

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By Faith Online multiple times when I was rebutting it, and I chose to not necessarily walk through each one one by one, because they somewhat coalesced into a broader perspective.

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So, I can pull up his article here, if you give me one second.

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Sure. I mean, the first lesson that he mentions is the importance of gathering biblical and practical perspectives, which,

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I mean, we've discussed that at length in our coronavirus book. And of course, that was the whole thing that seems to have been not enabled, in other words, blocking out

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God's people from the house of worship. I don't know if Ernie and Dan, if you want to comment on that.

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Perhaps it would be better for us to just even walk through some of the things that we specifically mentioned in our rebuttal.

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Yeah, sure. I mean, I think just a couple of general comments to begin with.

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I think that the thing that disturbed me the most, and again, I tried very hard in the rebuttal, which was a collaborative effort, to not use the ad hominem, as in attacking

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Dr. Pollan. It's easy to do that in something that we disagree with, but that was neither charitable nor brotherly.

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But what I did do was attack the concepts. And I think the most disturbing one,

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I actually save for the last, because it was perhaps the hardest one. The medical information is quite easy to rebut because the evidence is abounding in terms of how the narrative has just simply fallen flat on its face.

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But the weaving of Scripture throughout his rebuttal was very troubling to me.

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And I think that is representative of what is known as Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, which was a book written by Dr.

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John West from the Discovery Institute, just published actually in February of this year, I highly recommend.

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Yes, I've had him on the program to discuss the book. Okay, wonderful. So I think the unsuspecting reader reads through Dr.

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Pollan's seven lessons, and it's like, wow, I believe, I'm not 100 % certain of this, but I think there's

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Scripture in almost each of the seven lessons. And it would appear like, wow, these are lessons until you actually step back and look at what he's really espousing.

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There was a huge almost worship of science, which we can discuss that as we go along, that actually ends up being more like scientism.

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The second thing was almost bowing down to worship at the feet of the experts.

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The third very disturbing thing was his use of the word common grace, which I think

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Dan and Ernie can probably speak to this a little bit more than I can as far as the historic reformed understanding of that.

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He very much thought that masking, public social distancing, the antiviral medications, and specifically the vaccine, are representatives of common grace, which we, of course, take issue with that.

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And then finally, of course, what appears to me very much to be the twisting of Scripture. So that's sort of the rebuttal in a nutshell, and we can certainly unpack the nuts and bolts of that as we get started.

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But perhaps the others would like to speak to those just in an introductory manner. Yes, well, it wasn't until I read the book that I thought, why don't we go with Dr.

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O 'Rourke? Yeah, thank you, Chris. Yeah, there is a lot to unpack with all this.

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And I think, again, not to rehash a lot of what we spoke about when we were last on your program,

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I think we were on one or two times, but I think the foundational problem with Dr.

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Pollan's approach is the entire pandemic, and I put that in quotes, was really from the medical aspect, was founded upon the totally unsubstantiated premise of what is known as the asymptomatic super spreader.

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Without getting into it here, but one of the great blessings that came out of all this is many people have begun to look at scientifically some of the previously held ideas we had, and just suffice it to say that there are many scientific problems with biology.

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But in any event, given their own narrative and how they say that viruses replicate and how they are spread, basically in brief for the non -medical audience is that the way that the hypothesis goes is that the virus enters a cell, being that viruses are technically not living organisms, they don't reproduce, they replicate by basically hijacking the nucleic acid machinery of the cell.

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But it has been known for many years that the degree of sickness one has is related to the so -called viral load.

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So what is being claimed here is that you have many, many people walking around who are perfectly well, who were accused of being asymptomatic super spreaders.

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That has theological issues, but also medically in the sense that if you have large numbers of cells affected and these cells are dying either by the virus itself or by the body's own defense mechanisms, once a certain level of tissue injury occurs, then that will lead to the symptoms.

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So hopefully that makes sense. But basically the idea that we can walk around and not feeling sick at all, that we are asymptomatic super spreaders, is a notion that just has no scientific backing.

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On the theological side of that, it's actually quite bluntly a form of false witness, because if I feel perfectly fine under the

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Lord Jesus Christ in parable, made it clear that we can know that we're sick. And again, in that context, he was talking about the sense sickness of our souls, but he used an example of seeing a physician when you're ill.

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And if we are not sick and we feel well, how could we possibly know whether or not we were an asymptomatic super spreader?

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And most importantly, when would that ever be true that we would have any certainty?

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And that would be never. So the mere fact that we now mostly, except for a few people that are still clinging to the narrative, almost no one wears a mask these days.

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But if this narrative is true, we should have never stopped wearing masks. Now, there's a whole host of evidence there

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I won't get into now as to why masks don't work. But I'm just trying to show you the logical inconsistency here before I'll hand this over to Ernie.

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But the other last thing that really needs to be mentioned, and again, this is all public information. So like Joel, we want to treat

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Dr. Pullen fairly and within the parameters of the law of God. But in his article, he did not mention in his article, his many conflicts of interest.

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And he has made a substantial amount of money over the years through patents and royalties.

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He gets honoraria from a whole host of pharmaceutical companies. So whenever a essay or a scientific paper is written, it is very imperative that your audience knows if you have any conflicts of interest.

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And it is very unbecoming of a professing Christian to not reveal his conflicts of interest.

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So that's just a brief couple of comments from my side, and I can hand it over to Ernie. But we can follow up on this later if we feel that's necessary.

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Yeah. Well, you have anything to add, Ernie? Well, I just maybe just as a brief follow -up, but you know, and not to get it, as Joel said, not to get into the ad hominem type of, you know, criticism, but we're not dealing with just a physician.

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We're dealing with someone who is a teaching elder, a minister, if you will, a pastor, and who also is a trustee of a rather prestigious

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Reformed seminary, or excuse me, a director on the board. I mean, you know, so we can't, as I had said in my intro, is that we can't separate the medical aspects from the theological aspects when the theologians, if you will, are the ones telling us what we should and shouldn't do.

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And in this case, a prominent individual within the medical community also giving us that direction, which

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I guess he feels he has the authority and expertise to do so.

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But to me, as a layman, it just seems very obvious that he's avoiding dealing with certain theological obligations, as, you know,

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Dan just mentioned about the Ninth Commandment and, you know, the asymptomatic, bearing false witness, accusing someone without facts, evidence, or truth.

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And that, I can tell you personally, that has happened. And yes, we can care about the

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Sixth Commandment. We don't want to kill or, you know, thou shalt not murder. You know, we do care about that.

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But the way in which everything was done, you know, just was like backwards.

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You know, you quarantine the sick, you don't quarantine the healthy. I mean, that's,

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I think, been a premise throughout, you know, the ages. You know, but once again, there's this constant focus on the second table of the law, you know, commands that deal with individual personal relationships and activity.

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And yet, who is more important in the law? Is it the people or is it

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God? It's not one or the other. Both need to be understood. But, you know, you don't see within the second table, you know, you know, do not steal, you know, and I mean, you know, it's just like a basic statement, but in the first table law, you see the love of God is throughout

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Scripture connected with obedience to His commands. I mean, you can just do a concordance search, basically, and you'll find almost repeatedly, you know, the evidence of love of God is following His commandments in Scripture, throughout

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Scripture. And that's a major fallacy of those who have been dictating new rules and practices, or, you know, did in 2020 and 2021.

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And according to Dr. Poland, he would do again, and he's basically encouraging, you know, the readers of the magazine article, the seminary professors, the students at Westminster to not only follow the same course of action, but take an action that's perhaps even more strenuous, more severe.

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That's what I'm getting out of his communication from his By Faith article. And By Faith is an official

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PCA publication? Yes, it is.

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Yes. And just out of curiosity, is any rebuttal permitted in that publication to what has been written by Dr.

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Poland? That's a very interesting question, because I communicated directly with the editor more than once to solicit that opportunity for Joel to have his rebuttal presented, or at least part of it, you know, even if it needed to be, you know, briefly introduced, and then a link to where it is housed, say, on his blog, but they refuse to do that.

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Okay, well, Dr. Yeager, I think that I would like to have things really clearly highlighted and examined that Dr.

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Poland may be promoting, or is promoting, that you strongly oppose, that you believe as a physician were the largest mistakes made by the medical community, at least, you know, we're not

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Christ, we cannot read the hearts of men. We don't know how many physicians and scientists were knowingly lying about things, and just doing things because of protection of their status and careers, because of financial gain, you know, we don't necessarily know all that.

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But as far as what we have heard and seen in the public, what were the primary things promoted by physicians with whom you disagree that Dr.

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Poland is still perpetuating as positive things? Like, let's go through them one by one, like, for instance, the wearing of masks in public.

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Is that something that Dr. Poland is promoting that we return to?

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And was that of any positive effect at all? And perhaps even had negative effect, if you could,

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Dr. Yeager. Right. At one point, excuse me, in Dr.

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Poland's article, he mentions that mask wearing should be normalized in the Christian community or in the community at large during pandemics.

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And we outline that rather extensively in our coronavirus book. I mean, the stark reality is that there have been several decades worth of research, including randomized controlled trials that looked at mask wearing, not just in pandemics, but even in surgical settings and that sort of thing, and definitely showed that any efficacy is, if there is any efficacy at all, it's limited at best.

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We had decades of evidence. And of course, we all know that Dr. Fauci in February of 2020 was on 60

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Minutes, I believe it was, stating that Americans should not go out and buy a mask because they don't work.

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And then the next month, the narrative completely changed. So any thinking person should have asked, why is there a sudden change when we've had decades of research showing that they are ineffective?

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I mean, the virus itself, as far as the size, and we outline this in our book, is significantly smaller than the mask capacity.

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He does, to his credit, mention that proper masks worn properly are effective.

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I do give him credit for that. And by that, he's referring to the N95 mask, which to be effective needs to be fitted properly by someone who knows how to fit a mask.

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There needs to be no facial hair involved. And of course, we know that we've seen many people with, you know, any type of mask that you might want to think of slapped over top of a beard or a mustache, which by any definition of any mask effectiveness renders it completely ineffective.

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So all of the studies were clear until March of 2020, when the powers that be decided that masks probably are effective.

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And again, they said that with no evidence to support it whatsoever. But that, of course, became the main narrative.

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So unfortunately, mask wearing became, in my opinion, virtue signaling.

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I mean, if you try to go out in public, again, back to Dr. O 'Rourke's thought, if I'm not sick, there's no reason for me to wear a mask.

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Because I'm not sick, I'm not spreading anything. But just try to appear in a public space without a mask during COVID, we all know, of course, what actually happened with that.

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And then, of course, I mean, the negative effects of mask wearing are quite evident, from respiratory issues to infections, to inability to see children.

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I mean, it's very interesting because I believe it was in 2022, the

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CDC began to move the goalposts for some of the developmental milestones for children, you know, in terms of how many words one should have, you know, by, say, 18 months or 24 months.

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And that was basically because we saw the development of children significantly stunted.

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I mean, our current NIH director, Dr. Bhattacharya, did an interview on the Epoch Times back,

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I think, in 22 or 23, where he outlines this. And there's quite a few studies which show that the detriment to childhood developmental skills, whether it's social or language, were significantly stunted.

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School education performance was significantly stunted because now it was to be done at home.

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Or if it was in a public setting, it was behind a mask. And then when people weren't allowed together, even with masks, then it was done, you know, in an isolated setting.

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So there's just precious little evidence, actually no evidence, that shows that mask wearing was effective in any shape or form.

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So to have Dr. Pollan just simply stating that mask wearing should become normal without citing any evidence, or at least without looking at the decades of evidence that we had prior showing the exact opposite, is really just flat out a lie.

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There's no other way to describe it. I know Dan has done a lot of study on the mask as well.

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Dan, I don't know if you want to weigh in on that. One thing I just wanted to ask you quickly before we pass the baton to Dan is, you've mentioned that it impedes seeing.

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How would a mask do that? Well, I'd particularly, well, some people who have allergies, you know, there's reports of inflammation in the eye, particularly for people who wear glasses.

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I mean, simply the glasses fog up and it's almost impossible to see. So I don't know that there's a direct impediment to seeing if you're not wearing glasses, although there were all sorts of allergies that were reported.

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But definitely for the people who are wearing glasses, it was almost impossible to wear a mask and be able to see because the glasses fogged up.

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Yeah. And one of the things that, as you may recall, was a critical point in me abandoning my original cardiologist.

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Yes, I remember. After having congestive heart failure, I was strongly, sternly rebuked by the receptionist in the waiting room of a cardiologist because I had the mask

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I was wearing below my nose. And the receptionist very rudely demanded that I pull the mask up above my nose.

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And when I went finally into the examination room, I finally felt the relief of pulling the mask down.

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And my cardiologist walked in and said, how are you feeling? I said, oh,

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I'm feeling much better than before. And how are you breathing? Well, I'm breathing fine when

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I don't have these stupid masks over my face. But when I have the mask on above my nose, it really impedes my breathing.

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I have a hard time breathing properly. And he actually said, well, while you're here, please pull the mask up above your nose.

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That's when I knew this doctor does not care about my health or does not care about me having a very difficult time breathing.

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He's just towing a party line. Is there any reason on the face of the earth that a trained, licensed physician would have that kind of attitude?

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There is no reason. Now, I ask myself the question all the time, how doctors actually fell into that trap.

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And I have not come up with a good answer other than coercion, you know, towing the party line.

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No, there's no medical reason why that would be the case. OK, we're going to have when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to have

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Dr. O 'Rourke pick up on anything he cares to add about masks.

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And then we'll move on to perhaps even a lot more serious matter, the matter of vaccines that are being promoted.

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But if anybody has a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

33:08

James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend,

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Chris Arnson, has lined up for me on Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m. I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 130 p .m.,

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I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inherent Word of God. I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Free Pastors Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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41:54

We're now back with my guests, Dr. Joel Yeager, Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, and Ernie Springer, and we are providing a rebuttal to a recent article written by a doctor, physician,

42:13

PCA elder who is basically towing the party line, if you will, on the coronavirus, much to the frustration and anger of my guests today, and they are providing a rebuttal to this.

42:35

And I wanted Dr. O 'Rourke to pick up where Dr.

42:41

Yeager left off with anything further that you have to add about masks and not only their uselessness for the intended reason we were told to wear them, and ordered to wear them, and mandated to wear them, but even some of the negative consequences of habitually wearing masks.

43:03

Yeah, happy to follow up on that, Chris. I'll just briefly review section two of Dr.

43:10

Pollan's paper, which I have before me, and we've alluded to some of this earlier in our discussion, but Dr.

43:16

Pollan says, research prior to and during the COVID -19 pandemic consistently demonstrated that proper masks worn properly significantly reduced the transmission of respiratory viruses.

43:30

And as Joel pointed out in his rebuttal essay, there is data going back 100 plus years, even to the

43:38

Spanish flu pandemic, which showed that that was not the case. What he's referring to here in the current situation with the coronavirus pandemic was that there were studies, but they were all modeling studies.

43:57

It was impossible to do a proper study based on scientific principles during that time.

44:04

And again, he sort of, what he gave with the right hand, he took away with the left with his provisos, because the reality is it's very hard for anyone to wear a mask appropriately.

44:17

Down below, he talks about N95 masks, and viral theory states that only one virus is necessary to infect a cell to ultimately cause clinical infection.

44:30

So as it stands to reason, the greater that a barrier can prevent a very tiny particle from getting through, obviously, other than a closed system, that's not compatible with life.

44:45

And many people are unable to wear N95 masks. Chris, in your case, with a history of heart failure,

44:52

I would consider them contraindicated because many people will have a drop in their oxygen, they will have an increase in their carbon dioxide, let alone all the different fungi and bacteria that become trapped on the mask, which the patient that's wearing it is breathing in is also very highly problematic.

45:13

So unfortunately, this leaves us with a conclusion that either Dr. Poland is very ignorant of these things, which given his credentials seemed unlikely, or he's being untruthful here and pushing an agenda.

45:28

The other issue with this, too, is there's a group of researchers, they've been around for quite a long period of time, and it's a body of researchers from around the world, and it's called the

45:37

Cochrane Collaboration. And they are researchers of the research, a whole host of topics, not just related to infectious diseases and heart disease, all kinds of things.

45:47

But what they do is they look at the quality of the research, and most research is of very poor quality for a whole host of reasons.

45:56

It's beyond the scope of our discussion here, but for the interested listener, they can search online for the proper components of what's called the scientific method.

46:07

And many, many of these research projects fail to reach the proper components of that.

46:14

And a lot of times it's just simply not possible due to so many variables that are impossible to control. But in 2011, the

46:22

Cochrane Collaboration did a global research. They looked at all the various papers that they could find on this topic.

46:29

They excluded many of them because they were of such very poor quality. But even the ones that were considered of reasonable quality, they concluded that none of these measures of social distancing, masking, et cetera, makes any difference.

46:44

And so, this was known with a world review of the literature about 15 years ago. So, that was very, very problematic statements from Dr.

46:55

Poland. One other thing before I move on to the actual treatment of people thought to be suffering from SARS -CoV -2 or the disease of COVID, Dr.

47:07

Poland said, what my pastors do, and he talks about trying to normalize mask wearing during outbreaks.

47:14

And then he says, and sharing evidence -based resources to counter misinformation. Well, that just begs the question, well, who determines what's misinformation?

47:25

And that's the whole point of this debate. The three or four of us have a view,

47:30

Dr. Poland and Izilk have a view. And basically, from a human perspective, it can be very hard to sort that out.

47:39

But again, basically, it's sort of an appeal to authority logical error there when he says counter misinformation.

47:47

Just before I pass the baton to my colleagues, during the time of the pandemic, people presented with what is called flu -like illness.

47:58

There were very many problems with the diagnostic testing. I'm to the view now that none of the tests were accurate, and my colleagues may disagree, but if any of them were accurate, it was a very, very small number.

48:13

In other words, there are huge numbers of false positive tests. Yet we do not deny that some people were sick.

48:18

Some people were very seriously ill, but this has always been the case with acute respiratory illness, especially presumptive viral illness, especially when it reaches the lungs.

48:30

But in any event, as we all recall, there was a very singular essentially global stance to therapy.

48:39

You would think with what was put out with this narrative that there would be an all -hands -on -deck approach.

48:45

We have this so -called novel virus, neurotic transmission from bats to humans, said, and it could be very serious.

48:57

So we need an all -hands -on -deck approach, but that was actually discouraged. And as we've discussed many times, any type of deviation from the treatment paradigm was roundly condemned, and that was very curious in and of itself.

49:14

But in the hospital where I was practicing at the time, I'm outpatient right now, but when

49:20

I was practicing in the hospital, no alternative treatments were permitted. Antibiotics for secondary bacterial pneumonias, which are quite common in these patients, were used very sparingly, if at all.

49:32

There was great reluctance to use steroids. Of course, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine were brought in the hospitals, but an antiviral that was used called remdesivir was a standard part of the therapy.

49:46

Remdesivir was originally developed as an anti -cancer therapy, and it failed miserably on patient safety trials.

49:53

It harmed patients, was not effective for the treatment of cancer, but also just on side effects or adverse events of a very dangerous drug.

50:05

About 10 years ago, Ebola outbreaks, they tried that in the

50:10

African nations that were stricken with the Ebola outbreaks, and they found that people untreated had a 50 % mortality.

50:20

People that were treated from remdesivir had a 70 % mortality. So the drug failed there as well, primarily due to the advent of acute renal failure on top of a patient who was already seriously ill with a severe systemic disease.

50:37

So that this drug was put forth as possibly an effective therapy really is quite shocking, because although we definitely want to do everything we can to help patients, and patients do have a broad range of latitude before the

50:53

Lord as to what they may choose or not choose, that all involves the process of informed consent.

50:59

And informed consent was woefully lacking. And that is all through Dr.

51:04

Poland's paper, is he does not speak against it, but he does not speak in favor of it. And some of the comments he makes by implication are, well, were the experts listening to us?

51:16

And that is not informed consent. So those are the comments I had on the physical distancing, the masking, and then the antiviral therapies.

51:25

And I'm happy to turn it over to my colleagues at this point. Yeah, we have to go to a break right now, but we will definitely pick up with your colleagues when we return.

51:33

I did want to quickly say that I had two very different experiences with Dr.

51:43

Jaeger's card, official card, exemption card, medical exemption card, that he had made up for me so that I could not wear a mask on an airplane, and because of the difficulty

52:05

I had breathing and so on. And one airline, right from the moment

52:13

I checked my bags, when they initially stopped me and said, sir, you have to wear a mask,

52:20

I pulled out the card and was instantly treated like gold.

52:29

They were very apologetic and let me go through the line without any problem.

52:36

I got on the plane and as soon as the stewardess told me to put a mask on,

52:42

I showed her the medical exemption card and she said, okay, that's fine.

52:48

And had a nice flight. I was going to Texas and it involved the necessity of two flights, the second flight at a different airline, totally different story.

53:01

And I was treated rudely and an employee of the airline,

53:06

I can't remember, I think they might have called him a flight captain or something. He wasn't the pilot, but he wasn't even on the plane when

53:16

I originally boarded. And they called him from the airport to get on the plane to reprimand me.

53:26

And this guy angrily got on the plane and marched down the aisle and started yelling at me at the top of his lungs to either put on the mask or get off the plane.

53:37

And even when I pulled out the medical exemption card that Dr. Yeager gave me, he said,

53:43

I don't care about that. Put it away. I don't want to see it. So just amazing the two different ways

53:48

I was treated. But we have to go to a midway break right now and don't go away.

53:55

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. Welcome back. Before I return to my conversation with Dr.

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Joel Yeager, Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, and Ernie Springer on the recent lessons that we are allegedly to learn about the coronavirus from a physician named

01:06:33

Gregory Poland, who's affiliated with Westminster Theological Seminary. Before we return to that conversation, which is a rebuttal to these published lessons,

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to my panel today on their rebuttal to Dr.

01:10:06

Gregory Poland on the lessons that he alleges we are to learn from the coronavirus.

01:10:17

And we, just before the break, were hearing from Dr. O 'Rourke mentioning what he would consider to be the fallacies of promoting and even mandating mask -wearing during mandates and so -called pandemics such as the coronavirus.

01:10:42

And I do want the more serious matter of the vaccines to be addressed.

01:10:50

I know, Dr. Yeager, you actually have done a lot of research into these vaccines and you have something on your website warning about the vaccines that have been promoted for the coronavirus.

01:11:06

If you could, please explain why you are so adamantly opposed to these vaccines.

01:11:14

Yes, thank you, Chris. I would direct the reader to our rebuttal, which is on my website, dryeager .org.

01:11:23

It was also published on Aquila Report. I do mention significant data associated with the vaccines.

01:11:36

I say vaccine, it really should be put in quotes because the traditional vaccine methodology was actually changed to accommodate really what is more of a gene therapy, otherwise known as messenger

01:11:50

RNA, and without getting into the technicalities of that, was a completely different way of, quote, vaccinating a population.

01:12:03

You know, it's interesting because I think it was Bobby Kennedy's book, Letter to a

01:12:10

Liberal, I believe was the title of that. He outlines in there that for every one person who the

01:12:19

COVID shot was supposed to have saved, there would actually be four people that it would kill, which, again, never in history have we seen a medical intervention, quote, unquote, to be so toxic.

01:12:35

And of course, it begs the question, and that's not just something that Kennedy has come up with, that's been corroborated.

01:12:44

There was a book written last year, 2024, called Toxic Shot, Facing the

01:12:50

Dangers of the COVID Vaccines. Professor Emeritus of Epidemiology, Dr.

01:12:55

Harvey Reisch, well -respected, in that book explores the link between the vaccine and 600 ,000 unexplained excess deaths.

01:13:05

This excess death mortality, which Dr. O 'Rourke could speak to, didn't exist prior to the

01:13:11

COVID pandemic, and now we have excess deaths. We have died suddenly, and anyone who was paying any attention to news, not that I actually pay a lot of attention to news, but we all saw people fainting or perhaps flat out dying on news shows, healthy athletes collapsing on the athletic field.

01:13:35

And of course, no one knew exactly why that was, but I think some extrapolations would be fair, because we know that things such as heart attacks, blood clots, neurologic disorders, turbo cancers, turbo cancers means that all of a sudden someone is diagnosed with stage 3 or 4 cancer, which again had almost been unheard of prior to the

01:14:01

COVID, quote, vaccines. All of these things, including significantly disabled people, should be cause for these vaccines to be completely removed from the market years ago, and of course it begs the question why they're still there.

01:14:18

That's just it in summary. You can look at all the references I have specifically in the rebuttal, but again, it begs the question why

01:14:28

Dr. O 'Rourke, sorry, not Dr. O 'Rourke, Dr. Poland, excuse me, Dan, would call something like this a common grace, because to me it seems more like a common curse.

01:14:39

It's more lethal. There's nothing graceful about it whatsoever. So that's a summary.

01:14:46

Dan, I'm sure you can speak to that a little bit more if you'd like. Yeah, of course.

01:14:51

So we could have multiple shows, multiple hours just on the vaccine alone. But as Christians, we are to expose the darkness.

01:15:02

We are to search for truth. And I will take what they say about the vaccine as far as how it is to work.

01:15:09

I'll take that at face value. But I have searched high and low, and I have never found a proof of concept paper to that effect.

01:15:16

And basically, the idea was we have taken this modified messenger

01:15:22

RNA. We put it in a little fat particle called a nanoparticle, lipid nanoparticle, goes into your bloodstream.

01:15:30

The nanoparticle was taken up by the cell. It's unpacked by the cell. The mRNA is read by the ribosome of the cell, and it creates many, many gene sequences, which will make spike proteins.

01:15:47

As the even non -medical listener would realize, there's a lot of steps there.

01:15:53

And again, I'll take it at face value. That's the reason. Just hearing all that alone would be a reason not to take the injection.

01:16:00

But we really don't even know that that's proper. And that is a duty that they have before the

01:16:05

Lord to understand how this therapy works. There were many ethical breaches during the development of this.

01:16:13

One was in medical research, when you have a control group, you know, neither the researcher nor the patient is supposed to know which arm they're in, placebo versus the actual therapeutic intervention.

01:16:29

Whenever that is revealed, that's called breaking the label. And I personally knew people who, for whatever reason, decided to be in the studies.

01:16:38

And after about six to eight weeks of being followed, they were notified that they were in the placebo group and would they like to receive the injection.

01:16:47

And so, this also had been studied in other contexts by the Cogger collaboration.

01:16:53

And one of the grave weaknesses of Western medicine is they are not very interested in what's called harms data.

01:17:00

Whenever you look at a multitude of medical interventions, the average harms data is examined for about two weeks.

01:17:06

So, it would be impossible to know directly from, say, the

01:17:11

Pfizer or Moderna data what the side effects are. There are other areas where we can get that information, but it's certainly not from the research itself.

01:17:20

So, just a whole host of problems, the mechanism of action. If it is true what they say, then your body creating an antibody to the spike protein that your body made is the very definition of autoimmunity.

01:17:36

And I'm sure a number of the listeners have autoimmune disease, and they can tell you that's something you don't wish on anyone.

01:17:43

So, many, many problems medically, scientifically, ethically. And then, of course, a continual suppression of the massive numbers of side effects from these drugs.

01:17:57

What are antivirals and why are they lethal? Want me to tackle that,

01:18:03

Joel? Yes, please. Yeah, I think you already did somewhat on the grounds as a peer.

01:18:09

Yeah, speak to that again. Basically, the idea is that there are a presumptive multitude of viruses and so forth.

01:18:17

So, they develop these different medications to try and affect the virus at different parts of its existence.

01:18:26

And, of course, it's commonly stated that they have to be given quickly, which it does make logical sense to do that.

01:18:36

But again, because there are so many problems, just the whole area of virology, from testing to proper diagnosis to, again, beyond the scope of our discussion today, but the so -called cell culture technique.

01:18:51

And those are the areas where these substances are derived, and they are mixed with a multitude of materials from a multitude of genetic sources.

01:19:02

And a multitude of, in many cases, mammalian species. So, what is injected into the patient is oftentimes a biological concoction where we don't really know what we're getting.

01:19:19

And as a consequence, we often see a lot of side effects to these.

01:19:27

Again, getting on somewhat radioactive ground won't belabor the point that I will state right up front that Christians have liberty to take or not take a vaccine.

01:19:38

But having said that, many vaccine trials have never done a true placebo.

01:19:43

They have used another vaccine as the placebo. And one of the hallmarks of vaccinology is to add to these biological mixtures other chemicals called adjuvants, which are stated to enhance the effectiveness of the vaccine.

01:20:01

And there are things like aluminum and formaldehyde and mercury. The mercury and the aluminum are clear neurotoxins, especially when injected.

01:20:13

The way the Lord made us is we can eat small amounts of all kinds of things and really have no problem from it. But once you inject something, you bypass the gut, you bypass the liver and other filtering mechanisms.

01:20:25

But again, getting back to the idea of looking for side effects, if we believe that we need more research here, but if we believe that it's the adjuvants that are causing much of many of the side effects, well, if you use an adjuvant -containing substance as one of your controls, you can see that there will appear to be no difference between the two.

01:20:45

But that is very unethical. It's a form of lying. And you basically need, as a proper control, sterile pH -balanced isotonic saline or salt water.

01:20:57

That does not cause any type of inflammatory response, no immune reaction, and it is a true placebo.

01:21:04

And it is, I won't say it's never used, but it's very rarely used as a placebo. But again, we could go on and on about that.

01:21:11

But I think that should suffice for the moment. Before I go to Ernie, who wanted to respond to Dr.

01:21:21

Poland's mixing of political ideology and misinformation, before we go to that,

01:21:29

I just wanted to read a listener question, because this is really somebody who has been financially harmed due to the fiasco of the mandates.

01:21:46

We have Bruce in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. I'm a former Penn Medicine LGH employee,

01:21:54

I don't know what LGH means, whose employment was terminated, along with many others, on September 1st, 2021 for noncompliance with the

01:22:06

Schott mandate. With respect to the Trump administration's executive order to reinstate military personnel who lost their employment status for noncompliance to the

01:22:20

COVID vaccine mandate to active duty with back pay, I am 110 % in favor of this right a wrong, to this right a wrong.

01:22:31

Right, I read it correctly. However, at face value in assessing it, my gut level reaction is, that is wonderful, but what about the rest of us in the private sector who lost employment?

01:22:43

I'm wondering out loud if there are any precedents where those of us who lost employment would have a financial recourse for damages.

01:22:54

Having lost almost four years of income and the stress associated with it has been a hurdle to overcome, and it begs the question of possible remuneration.

01:23:09

Sorry about that. Well, I don't know if any of you have a response to that, since some of what he's asking is out of your field.

01:23:21

I do have a recommendation for an attorney who sponsors my pastor's luncheons for the last year or two, co -sponsors them.

01:23:36

Her name is Andrea Shaw, and she has been specializing in representing victims of these coronavirus mandates where people have had their employment affected and even terminated.

01:23:55

If you're listening still, Bruce, the website is named after her husband, andrewshawlaw .org.

01:24:05

andrewshawlaw .org, and his wife, Andrea, is the one specializing in that area.

01:24:12

But anybody else care to have a response to what

01:24:20

Bruce has said? Yeah, Chris, this is Ernie. I can take that. First of all, LGH is

01:24:26

Lancaster General Health, which is our hospital, which was part of Penn Medicine, and the name

01:24:33

Bruce sounds familiar. If it is the Bruce I think I know, hello, Bruce. And yes, he was one of many who suffered the tyranny, if you will, from Penn Medicine or LGH in that they were forced to either take this jab in their arm, as we referred to it, or they were fired.

01:24:56

Many refused to do it, and they were fired, and they did so for conscience sake, and many of them were professing

01:25:03

Christians also, so the matter of liberty of conscience also comes into play.

01:25:08

But there were also those who were able to apply for a religious exemption, and out of literally close to a thousand requests, half of them were denied.

01:25:21

Half of those individuals who said, this is my sincerely held personal religious position on something, the hospital said, no, we know more about it than you.

01:25:34

And these are facts, incidentally. Medical exemption requests, 90 % of them were denied, and they were even many of them presented from the very physicians of the employees, some of which were

01:25:47

Penn Medicine physicians who had these people under their care for many years who had serious health issues that there could have been complications by taking this, and yet Penn Medicine insisted that they be denied.

01:26:02

I mean, it was almost unfathomable that this rejection would come forth, a blind rejection, if you will.

01:26:11

And there were groups that did try to approach, they organized and tried to address this, and not only organized, but incorporated, raised funds, and filed a lawsuit with the help of an attorney against Penn Medicine.

01:26:27

But the court system throughout the country, including the

01:26:32

Philadelphia District Court, sat on it for months and then tossed it aside and said,

01:26:38

I'm not going to hear it. Almost all these courts rejected these types of claims. Why?

01:26:44

I don't know. I can speculate. So, I sympathize with Bruce. I know of his plight.

01:26:51

It was a very, very sad situation, and a tyrannical one, for that matter. So, I don't know if you want me to get into the segue into the other point of Baldwin's article or not yet.

01:27:04

Okay. And this wasn't, I wasn't really planning to address this, and of course, Joel does address the parts of the article, just to kind of give people a little bit of a flavor.

01:27:15

But this one section, avoiding the dangerous mix of political ideology and misinformation.

01:27:22

Now, in reading this, I mean, it's packed with a lot of, you know, rhetoric, if you will, that almost sounds something like an

01:27:29

MSNBC editorial or something you would receive in a communication from the Facebook fact checkers.

01:27:36

You know, I'm sure many of us have endured that annoyance. But By Faith magazine is something that's generally read,

01:27:45

I believe, by pastors, you know, teaching elders and ruling elders, not exclusively by the lady, and probably not many of them even have heard of the magazine.

01:27:57

So, the flavor of this section chooses to demean and even denigrate indirectly,

01:28:04

I guess, maybe even directly in some cases, the concerns that come from the layman, if you will.

01:28:11

And, you know, and it kind of bandies about the term Christian nationalism, which we've heard many times, and is often misrepresented as to what it, you know, truly is.

01:28:22

And there can be a very positive, godly sense to that. You know, I think it almost comes forth in the phrase of,

01:28:33

I recall, tyranny of the experts or tyranny of the theologian. You know, we know so much more than you.

01:28:40

You need to listen to us. And throughout this, he chooses to give practical advice for the pastors to follow, and pastors should model discernment by doing certain things, and pastors should address the harm caused, you know, by believing or sharing misinformation.

01:28:58

And just, you know, it's like, you know, here's my guidance to you on how to deal with these unruly, non -thinking, ignorant, you know, people within your congregation.

01:29:11

So, like I said, it's very, very demeaning. But, you know, he tries to say that, you know, they don't rely upon valid, you know, proven or, you know, unverified claims and fears about vaccines and things like that.

01:29:25

Well, we have the VAERS reporting, for instance, which is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System that, you know, it's a voluntary system.

01:29:33

I believe that, you know, individuals, doctors, health professionals, whoever can, they can enter in the results of what they believe to be vaccine injury.

01:29:43

Well, it just skyrocketed in 2021,

01:29:50

I believe, after the so -called vaccines came out. I mean, it was very clear that what was happening just in 2021 dwarfed all the vaccine injuries from every vaccine for, like, as long as the

01:30:01

VAERS system had been in effect. So, you know, are these things not proven or unverified?

01:30:09

Well, it's certainly, it's like the, you know, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck probably is a duck scenario.

01:30:15

And the fact that there are many of these people who have expressed these concerns and their fears about the vaccines or the mask wearing or whatever else, you know, there are very knowledgeable scientific men and physicians.

01:30:31

I mean, you have people like Dennis Rancourt and Robert Malone and Pierre Cory and Paul Mark and Peter McCullough.

01:30:38

I mean, these are people who are extremely knowledgeable and very studious in their evaluation of these things.

01:30:45

And I mean, Peter McCullough is probably one of the leaders in writing, you know, contributing to medical journals and articles and so forth.

01:30:52

And he's even been presently speaking before Congress now. And to deny these, what's coming from the mouths of these people to say, like, we don't have verifiable information.

01:31:05

We don't have experts in any of this stuff, you know, beyond what, you know, we say, you know,

01:31:11

I mean, it's just smacks in the face of, again, of pride and tyranny.

01:31:19

I mean, I don't know how else really to describe it. I mean, you know, this concept that only the experts, only the theologians can know truth and we have to use this to somehow, you know, beat down these uninformed people, it's horrendous.

01:31:39

And one last thing about it, you know, it concludes with, we must remind congregants that our ultimate citizenship is in heaven, not in political and national identity.

01:31:48

Well, while it's a truth that our ultimate citizenship is in heaven, there's maybe it's this two -kingdom theology idea that's crept in to a lot of the churches, an idea that somehow, you know, we're operating within a bubble, you know, independent and outside of the society and the culture and the governments and everything else that we are exposed to.

01:32:10

But yet, I don't see that as a true historical position amongst, you know, if you look to the history of the

01:32:18

Christian church and reformed, you know, reformers and churches, you know, from the 16th century onward.

01:32:25

So they're just, it's just so packed full of, you know, he talks about misinformation. I think this is misinformation, what he's presenting, so much of it.

01:32:36

And just to set the record straight, it might interest my listeners to know that at least two of my guests today have affiliation with the

01:32:49

Presbyterian Church in America, the PCA, the denomination that the doctor in question here,

01:32:58

Dr. Poland, is a member of. I know that Dr.

01:33:05

Yeager is an active member of a PCA church in the Lancaster area.

01:33:11

I know, Ernie, you used to be. Are you still there? Oh, yeah. Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

01:33:16

And I might add that Dr. O 'Rourke is also a ruling elder, and I'm an ordained deacon in the

01:33:23

PCA as well. And Joel, of course, also attends the PCA church.

01:33:28

Right. And Dr. O 'Rourke, you're in the PCA? Yes, sir. Okay. So all three of my guests.

01:33:34

So this has nothing to do with some kind of animus against the PCA. Correct.

01:33:40

Yes, that's correct. It's a desire for truth, Chris. It's a desire that truth be seen within the church.

01:33:49

Well, let's see here. Before we go to our final break,

01:33:55

I wanted to get another listener question in. We have

01:34:03

Pamela in Winter Garden, Florida, and Pamela asks, do you think that all of these deaths of young, healthy people and athletes can be proven were caused by the vaccines?

01:34:28

Or is this just a theory because of the unusual number of these deaths and the youth and health of those who have perished?

01:34:38

And I guess we'll start with Joel Yeager this time. Well, it may be hard to prove, but one has to follow the evidence.

01:34:51

So there's an old rule in medicine that if you see an outcome that's different from what would be the expected norm, you should look at what came prior to that.

01:35:04

And if what came prior to that was significant, then the likely explanation, well, maybe not proven, but the likely explanation is that it probably was causative.

01:35:16

So, I mean, one just has to ask. We've never seen people collapsing on stage like we've seen so much of in the past five years.

01:35:26

So while it would be perhaps difficult to directly prove that, the fact of myocarditis, myocardial infarction, strokes, and all of these things, which we do know are direct results of the vaccine, one would be foolish to think that it was just simply happenstance.

01:35:46

Perhaps not directly provable, but certainly by inference, that is the only explanation until proven otherwise.

01:35:53

I remember one of my professors in Britain always said, you know, that is the explanation until proven otherwise.

01:36:00

So, it would have to be disproven in order for it to not be the case.

01:36:06

Now, thoughts on that, Dr. O 'Rourke? Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, in an individual case, it can be somewhat difficult.

01:36:15

Obviously, very few autopsies are done, but we could know. And let me describe how that could be done.

01:36:24

Back in December of 2020, December 15th to be exact, is when the vaccination was released, became very widespread in use, especially in the first half of 2021.

01:36:37

But what we could do today is the various magistrates in the various states or even at the federal level, it is my very strong understanding that given federal law with these pharmaceuticals, that it is a requirement for them to have a record of who received the vaccine.

01:36:56

And so, whether Moderna or Pfizer has those records, but I'm sure you could correct me on this, but I believe that they are required by federal law to do so.

01:37:07

And what the magistrates could do is just require that all deaths, it doesn't matter if it's a one -day -old baby or a 105 -year -old person, they died and did they have the

01:37:18

COVID vaccine. And basically, what you would see is we have very good epidemiological basis for deaths.

01:37:27

Typically, in the United States before COVID, about 2 .8 million people die every year.

01:37:33

Well, if you see a marked increase and then in deaths, what's called excess mortality.

01:37:40

And if that excess mortality is largely confined to a vaccinated population, the answer to the listener's question, that would give you a very strong correlation that that was the case.

01:37:53

Now, someone may rebut me and say, well, but it's observational, it's retrospective, it's not randomized.

01:37:58

And I would agree with those things. And those types of methodologies are not the norm. However, we're talking, if the federal government is to be believed, at least 250 million

01:38:09

Americans took at least one injection. That has what's called statistical power.

01:38:15

And so there you could see it. And we had mentioned

01:38:20

Dr. Denny Rancou before, and he did look at some of this data. And there is significant excess mortality amongst the young who received these vaccines.

01:38:30

So basically, it can be bound, but I agree with the listener that in an individual case, it may be difficult.

01:38:38

But to those of us who practice, of course, I'm a cardiovascular specialist, many, many closely associated cardiovascular side effects, very closely related to injection to illness.

01:38:50

And it exceeds anything that I had seen in the prior 35 years of practice. And, you know, if I may just add,

01:38:58

I am remembering now that Dr. McCullough did actually, he was involved in a study,

01:39:04

I believe, that was published earlier this year. I don't have it in front of me, but it was actually autopsy data. And it was specifically autopsy data in relation to people who had died from COVID vaccines.

01:39:17

And it was from that autopsy data that he had published a report that all mRNA vaccines should be pulled off the market immediately.

01:39:25

I believe that was published back in January, if I'm not mistaken. Okay, we have

01:39:31

Jerusha in Sea -Tac, Washington, who wants to know,

01:39:36

I would like to hear the two physicians give their opinions on vaccines in general, not specifically the coronavirus vaccines.

01:39:47

And I guess we'll start with Dr. Yeager. Wow, that is a huge question, which

01:40:00

I'm not sure I can really adequately answer in the short time that we have.

01:40:08

There's a very interesting book that my wife and I recently have been aware of, written by Dr.

01:40:16

Suzanne Humphreys, and it's called Dissolving Illusions. And it's specifically about the history of infectious disease, as well as the history of vaccinology.

01:40:28

And it is truly astounding. A lot of this research has been buried, but she traveled to various medical libraries throughout the world to actually track the information back to original sources.

01:40:42

And repeatedly, for vaccine -preventable illnesses, she shows the graphs that show the drop in what we would say vaccine -preventable diseases, and then how that correlates with the timing of the introduction of a vaccine.

01:41:01

And in almost every case, the vaccine -preventable illness had dropped significantly through public health efforts like sanitation, etc.,

01:41:12

prior to the introduction of the vaccine. But if you only look at the graph that shows the vaccine and the fall in cases, you would think that it was the vaccine that had done it.

01:41:23

So I have to admit, my impression of vaccines is very different than it was when I first started in this profession 20 -some years ago.

01:41:31

It's an interesting discussion that I have almost every day with parents. We've seen a significant shift in our own communities' feelings about vaccines.

01:41:42

I think people need to keep an open mind, and you have to go where the evidence takes you, and the evidence is not taking us in a very good direction in vaccines in general.

01:41:53

That's just a very cursory overview. Dr. Rewerke, do you have anything to add? Yeah, thank you.

01:42:00

Again, very difficult topic. Again, I'll state that Christians have a liberty to take or not take a vaccine.

01:42:07

I think the biggest issue, and Joel touched upon this tangentially, the biggest issue is that informed consent is not being given.

01:42:16

There are many data points that the average patient or the guardian in the case of children are not told these things.

01:42:24

Again, this is something that I could talk about for quite a long time. Up until about 15 years ago,

01:42:31

I really didn't care. I was a cardiologist, and vaccines weren't my thing. But then in 2010,

01:42:36

I was required to take an influenza vaccine, and I said, well, I really don't want to do that. Did a lot of deep research, and I was really quite stunned by what

01:42:45

I found, especially regarding influenza vaccine. But as we discussed earlier, the biggest problem is lack of informed consent, lack of a proper control group.

01:42:56

And just to hit a few points for the benefit of our listeners, no vaccine is ever required to prove that it actually prevents the so -called vaccine -preventable illness.

01:43:09

What you have to do to get FDA approval is have a certain antibody response.

01:43:14

And if you read the print in the package insert, it says that, well, a certain level of antibody is no guarantee that it provides protection.

01:43:24

And so there's a whole host of things that need to be done to test these, and these things are not carried about.

01:43:31

Like, for example, you would do exposure trials. Again, there could be legitimate ethical concerns with that in humans, but you could try to find an animal host that has a similar physiology to the human, and then you would try to introduce the disease in question by a rational means of communicability.

01:43:52

Very briefly, when you looked at rabies, for example, they would take animals that had rabies, which is a disease, by the way.

01:44:00

It doesn't tell you the cause. It has been presumptively viral. But in any event, what they would do is they would take the brain or spinal cord of the animal so afflicted, they would basically add a bunch of chemicals to them, grind it up, and then they would take animal hosts, and they would actually inject this material into the brain of the test animal.

01:44:22

And that really sort of defies belief. Well, yes, many of these animals became sick, but that's not proof that the clinical specimen actually gave them an infectious disease.

01:44:34

No one catches rabies by injection into the brain. So when you read this stuff over and over again, you see a lot of problems.

01:44:43

And very briefly, getting back to Dr. Poland, he has very severe conflicts of interest here.

01:44:50

And so the things he states about these things, safe and effective and so forth, a lot of the research necessary to prove that or at least to enlighten us on that has really not been done.

01:45:01

So I share the listener's concern with vaccines, the massive explosion, not only in the vaccine schedule for children, but also adults.

01:45:13

We're all called to get an RSV vaccine, get a pneumonia shot, a shingle shot.

01:45:19

And again, none of these things have been studied very rigorously. So that is also a hindrance to the informed consent process.

01:45:28

OK, we're going to our final break. Don't go away. We'll be right back. This is

01:45:39

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:45:44

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:45:50

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:46:06

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:46:13

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:46:26

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:46:36

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:46:44

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:46:50

Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:47:07

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:47:13

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:47:19

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01:50:35

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01:50:43

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

01:51:30

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

01:51:58

Christ -centered gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York and play our role in fulfilling the

01:52:06

Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.

01:52:17

At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

01:52:23

Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

01:52:34

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

01:52:51

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

01:52:59

God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

01:53:05

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit lindbrookbaptist .org,

01:53:11

that's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

01:53:24

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

01:53:30

The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Welcome back.

01:53:35

We have a question from Carmela in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Carmela wants to know, other than the horrible, horrific ideology involving his pro -abortion position,

01:53:52

I was wondering how the doctors involved in this discussion view

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R .F .K. Jr. and his addition to current policy on health.

01:54:07

And let's start with Dr. Yeager this time. I'm sorry,

01:54:13

I had you on mute. Sorry about that. Yeah, certainly. Well, I think

01:54:18

R .F .K. Jr. certainly has generated some controversy. All in all,

01:54:24

I feel positive about what he's attempting to do in the health care system.

01:54:30

I mean, he just recently said, actually this week, I believe, that we're probably, we being CDC, etc., will probably stop publishing in journals like the

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New England Journal of Medicine, the Lancet, Journal of the American Medical Association, because they are all corrupt.

01:54:47

I'll have to say, personally, my eyes were open to a past five years by R .F

01:54:55

.K. Jr.'s children's health defense. So I'm not certainly advocating perhaps everything that he stands for, but I personally think it's a very positive thing to have him in the administration, because I think he really does want to help figure out causes of chronic disease, as well as help to expose some of the fraud and corruption that really drives our health care system.

01:55:21

Anything to add, Dr. O 'Rourke? No, no, I would agree with that. Obviously, as Christians, we would have many areas of our worldview that we might not agree with Mr.

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Kennedy on, but as physicians, I'm sure Joel would agree, what he's doing specifically here is a very good thing, because we're getting people to look at not only drugs, other pharmaceuticals, but toxins in our diet, that type of thing, because it is,

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I've been in medicine for over 40 years, and there is no doubt in my mind, we are getting sicker as a nation, and some of the things he's bringing up need to be discussed.

01:55:57

So on these particular topics, I think he's been a positive influence. Now, you want to add anything,

01:56:03

Ernie, even though you're not a physician, you are politically? Well, I can add one thing with regard to Robert F.

01:56:10

Kennedy Jr. Back in 2021, he was the featured speaker here in Lancaster County at what they call an annual

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Family Days on the Farm. It's attended, oh, I don't know, I guess close to 5 ,000 people, with the large majority of them being

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Amish and Mennonite, which was of particular interest, because many of them, especially the

01:56:33

Amish, you know, were rejecting the so -called vaccine, and they chose to pursue herd immunity, you know, spread it amongst themselves and then be immune there afterwards.

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And they were in eager, you know, listening attendance there to him speak.

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I was there, actually, Dr. Yeager invited me to go along with him, and we heard him up close and saw his passion and personal, you know, sincere feeling about the whole subject of what was going on in that day.

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And I even took liberty or advantage of the fact by when he was walking by himself beyond the tent to, you know, to another location,

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I quick ran up and walked with him for maybe about two minutes, able to ask him some questions myself.

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And he was very, you know, receptive and open to it and, you know, just approachable.

01:57:28

So that just was a personal experience with him. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have the websites of the two medical practices being represented here.

01:57:42

My own personal physician, once again, Dr. Joel Yeager is the founder of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, and that website is heritagefamilyhealth .org,

01:57:56

heritagefamilyhealth .org. The practice that Dr.

01:58:03

Daniel O 'Rourke represents, Trinity Heart and Vascular Group in Johnson City, Tennessee, that website is trinityheartandvasculargroup .com,

01:58:19

trinityheartandvasculargroup .com. And, Ernie, how can our listeners get a hold of the book that the three of you wrote,

01:58:32

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, a Sacred Trust Broken? Sure, sure.

01:58:38

And, you know, after the book kind of sitting for a while, we realized with this latest article, there's still relevance and application for this book that's worthy of the reader.

01:58:47

So, simply go on the internet and go to, in your web browser, type lulu, that's lulu .com,

01:58:55

lulu .com. And then in the search section, type in either my name,

01:59:03

Ernest Springer, or Joel Yeager. The title's a little bit long. It begins

01:59:08

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church. But any of those methods will get you to the book.

01:59:14

And don't forget, folks, Iron Trip and Zion Radio really needs your financial support. We just lost one of our largest advertisers because they, sadly, are likely permanently closing their doors due to financial struggles.

01:59:28

So, please help us replace that income. Go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, IronTripandZionRadio .com,

01:59:35

and click support. I want to thank my guests for being such extraordinary guests today. I want to thank all of you who listened today.

01:59:42

Sorry for those whose questions I could not read because we ran out of time. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater