# 110 Understanding the Moses we miss when reading Exodus + Dr .Mallory Chappell

Moses, Human Development, and God’s Work Through Flawed People

Today we are gonna talk about Moses.

Do we as Christians rely on God's power? Is power comforting without love and without goodness and without trust beyond what you would have of someone who's more powerful than you?

Whoa, that's a good question to ask yourself.

We come to it with this idea of who Moses is.

You mean like we get in our way by like seeing him as this perfect person.

We miss seeing the growth too and seeing what God does with him and through him and in him.

What would it be like to be in the room with Moses? Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding God easier.

These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion. Now I'm sharing these recorded conversations with you. On this podcast, we talk about the facts, the history, and the translations to make the Bible make sense so we can get to know God our creator better.

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I'm your host, Cassian Bellino. And today we are gonna talk about a character. You love him and you know him, Moses. Moses is one of those really interesting people in the Bible to me because he's like not real.

He's one of those people where if you look at all the characters, he's definitely like top three lives that I would love to witness in a movie. Just like in a cinematic real way. I'd love to be there.

I mean, the burning bush, let alone, the parting of the Red Sea, the 10 commandments chiseled into tablets. He talks to God. He leads an entire nation. He spends 40 years in the desert. But then you zoom in and you actually like, what would it be like to be in the room with Moses?

What would he actually look like? And that's what we're here today to discuss. Because if you zoom in on scripture, just from like a surface level, when he talks to God and he's talking to him about the burning bush, he's basically being like, hey God, imposter syndrome, you got the wrong guy.

You got the wrong guy. And then he's on the mountain talking to God. And he's, while he's on the mountain, all the people he just brought out of slavery are already building a golden calf. And then he gets so mad.

He smashes the tablets. He has to hike all the way back up. How many steps was he doing up and down Mount Sinai? And then he gets to a point where he's like, hey, listen God, like, I don't know if I want to work for you, but then fast forward and he's like, I actually don't want to go anywhere without you.

So there are some key moments we're going to discuss examining Moses through a very realistic and contextual and historically accurate lens. And we're going to look at the burning bush, the golden calf, the request to see God's glory, Miriam and Aaron, his sister and his brother, challenging his authority, and then the spies.

And to talk about Moses, we have brought back our favorite contextual biblical studies expert, Dr. Mallory Chappell, because this is what you do. You, I always like when you say you dethrone these men because we put them on a pedestal of perfection, but when we zoom in, they're very real, they're very human, they're very flawed, and yet still used and chosen by God.

And you're more than qualified because I only bring on the experts to talk about it because here I am, I need to know from you. You have a PhD in biblical exposition from Liberty University, a master of divinity with a focus on biblical languages.

And your research is looking at the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament, and how language and ancient culture affect the way we understand these texts. You also teach Bible, ancient history, cultural geography, and you serve as a discipleship pastor.

Welcome back, Mallory Chappell.

Thank you so much for having me. I genuinely love being on your podcast. It's so much fun. I love to talk about all this stuff. I love to talk with you about these things. I love to ask you questions.

I'm so glad that we've now talked about, I almost said Dr. King David, King David, Abraham, and now Moses. Of the three, how does Moses kind of stand? Do you say he's the most scandalous? I would say that's probably David.

This one may be the most challenged. I don't know. Abraham was also very interesting to explore. Yeah, I think with Moses,.

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that we get in our own way with Moses a lot because we hear the Bible stories. We see the movies about the parting of the Red Sea. And then when we zoom in, like you were talking about, and we read what's actually in there, I don't think, I think we just get in our own way in how we approach the text.

We come to it with this idea of who Moses is. And when we do that, we miss the development of Moses and his allegiance to God over the course of these stories. We miss all of the things that he does because we have this idea in our heads when we start studying him.

You mean like we get in our way by like seeing him as this perfect person and we kind of miss out on like how great God is by meeting Moses where he's at.

Yeah, and we miss seeing the growth too and seeing what God does with him and through him and in him because I think we have this idea that Moses was the chosen mediator. Therefore, he was great all along and he had it all together.

And so we just miss opportunities for us to learn from this story that God chose to give us.

Absolutely, and I'm sure we'll find examples of that with Moses. But I think just looking back at Abraham, one of the ways that you just did that was like, Abraham was not worshiping God. Like Abraham was like a paganistic polytheistic guy who God like plucked out.

And I think that for a long time, I was like, if only I'm as perfect as Abraham, I'll be used in the same way. It's like, he wasn't. He wasn't nearly a devout Christian or like Jew. And so it's really wonderful the way that you're able to take these people and like help us see them for who they really are.

But before we get into the burning bush, like let's just like add some context to Moses. I think we know like Prince of Egypt, you know, like we know the cinematic. But like when we get to Exodus three, where exactly is Moses in his life?

Okay, so when we get to Exodus three, which is where he attacks the Egyptian who is beating a slave, who is a Hebrew, Moses is probably around 40, which is way older than we always like view him.

Yeah, that is way older.

Yeah, Moses is way older in all of these stories than we anticipate and then we think and then is depicted in movies, which I get like cinematic stuff, totally get it. Not knocking that at all. I show the Prince of Egypt in my classroom, like all the time.

So, you know, not knocking that at all. So he's 40-ish, right? We're gonna go with the ish numbers because it doesn't say exactly, but just counting the times, he's around 40. He, when he leaves, he spends like 40 years in Midian.

And so when he's coming back, he's probably like 80. Which is way older than we think, right? He's much older.

In that time, that was like a sprightly age. That wasn't like a decrepit end-of-life age.

Right, yeah, we don't know, depending, I mean, there's different views on how to take the ages in the Old Testament. I feel like I say there's different views every time I talk to you because there's always different views on things, but yeah, I mean, regardless of how you take the ages, I think it's definitely safe to say that we can't take what we see as somebody who's 40 or 80 and just implant it back then because their lifestyle was so different.

They walked everywhere. The food they were eating was different. They weren't consuming plastics and all of these things that are in our McDonald's and all of that stuff, right? So their life was just so different.

So it's not a one-to-one correspondence.

And just because we just spoke about Abraham last week, what's the timeline of Abraham built these many nations and now we're at Moses. Is it like 500 years? Is it 50 years? It's more, it's like,.

And part of the dating issue is that Abraham has like two possible dates. Moses has like two possible dates. So six to 800 years, somewhere like that.

Would you say like life has changed drastically since like the life that Abraham lived with like the tents and the desert and like the nomadic villages. And now we get to Moses and there's like Pharaoh's palace.

Yes, definitely the setting has changed. You know, geographically we're going from one place where nomadic lifestyle was more common. And now we are in a settled developed kingdom that has its own sociopolitical issues, its own religious issues, and one that has history that we know more about than the area where Abraham was.

So other than just the geography, we also have the development of people, right? We, our cultures develop, they change, they grow over time. So there's like two pieces kind of working together in all the progression, yeah, that we have.

Yeah, it's hard to imagine like how different life must have looked for him. But okay, so he is raised in Egypt, obviously we know the story, but then he flees. And at this point, he spent a lot of time away.

Who is he identifying with, you know, like with a history of royalty, but now like 40 years away from that, like culturally, is he an outcast? Is he like the upper epsilon of his village?

So I don't even know that we have a good term for this because the topic of culture and ethnicity is such a sensitive topic for a lot of people. So I don't know that we have a good term for this. What I will say is that we have to consider the fact that he is Hebrew and he knew he was Hebrew.

He grew up Egyptian. So he is Egyptian in how he was raised, how he was trained, how he was taught, how he was educated. But he's also been living in the desert with a totally different group of people.

So Moses is, as a lot of us are, a combination of everything that's happened in his life. And to pigeonhole him as like just a Hebrew or just an Egyptian, I don't think paints the full picture. So when we look at Moses getting ready to go back to Egypt, we have to almost be like, okay, how would he as a Hebrew feel about this?

How would he as Egyptian feel about this? Good point. Right, and it's a lot more work. And there's a lot more holes because we don't know a ton about Midian and what was going on there. So we're missing some pieces, but I think that makes the story more relatable because none of us are any one thing.

We all are made up of the experiences that we have and the lives that we live. And if you're in one career and then you change careers, you don't just ignore or lose everything from before, you bring it with you.

Totally. And so Moses would be the same. It just makes it more complicated. And then just pointing out that he has this history with Egypt. So when he goes back, I mean, imagine somewhere awkward that you left in your life and then having to go back and be like, hey, I'm back.

We never actually settled things and now I'm trying to ask you to do something. Like just the human experience in that is something that many of us have experienced leaving a job, family issues, all of these things.

It paints a bigger picture.

Of who he is and what he's dealing with. And that really helps kind of externally, but also socially where he plays himself. But as far as we're concerned, if we were Moses, we lived that life, we left, we're now building a separate life.

And in his head, he's got a job, he's got a family, he is set up. He's like, I'm never gonna go back to Egypt. In his head, when the burning bush happens, he's like, no, no, I got, I'm good. Like I'm built out here, right?

Like what would be going on in his head? Like he wouldn't ever think of going back to Egypt at this point.

Yeah, there's nothing in the text that in any way indicates that going back to Egypt was on his radar. Like there's nothing that suggests that, he was like thinking about going back or wanting to go back or anything like that.

It's like, he's walking along and then all of a sudden, okay, there's God, which is kind of how it happened with Abraham too. And I mean, if we look at different people throughout the Old Testament, we don't get a lot of lead up.

It's kind of like, hey, here's God. God doesn't like lead crumbs. No, he's just like, hey, here's what I want you to do. And they're like, okay.

Just like for knowing this came kind of off of Abraham, like what does he know about like Abraham and Jacob? Like to him, is he like a child of Abraham? Like, is that his perspective?

Maybe, it seems that they had some concept of that because when God introduces himself, I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but when he introduces himself, he identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So there's some level of familiarity there, but what that means beyond like, I mean, think about if we know anything about our ancestors, I have a general idea of who I was related to 500 years ago, but I don't know anything about them.

So, right? So maybe, maybe not. But he also was raised Egyptian. So maybe that's impacting it because he's not around the stories and the people. So definitely was aware, but how much he knew or would have identified with that is not super clear.

And doesn't seem like it's super likely. Do we know what Moses was worshiping? Like, would it have been the same God that Abraham worshiped, or would it have been like a culture of like polytheistic Egyptian gods?

And then, you know.

It doesn't say in this part of the text, but I think if we look at the whole of the issues that the Israelites face, we can tell that they are not totally devoted to Yahweh alone in the way that we saw Abraham at the end of his life, right?

There was no hint of polytheism in Abraham, the end of his life. We don't see anything like that, any of those themes coming out in the text, but over and over and over again, we see this misunderstanding that the Israelites have of who God is as compared to who false gods are.

All right, we see it when they get into the promised land and they are worshiping these false idols, and they're like worshiping Yahweh and Baal, and they're worshiping Yahweh and Molech. And so it seems that there was a confusion, which makes sense if they'd been in Egypt for that amount of time, that there would be confusion that would make complete sense.

So it's probably something like that, where there's like, you know, Yahweh's introducing himself as, I am the God they worshiped, so now you need to worship me. But like, they were probably worshiping other gods too up until that point.

That's what they've been doing. Like, isn't that like the miracle of Exodus of like, hey, I'm gonna take you out of the thing that you've known. Like, that's why they struggled so much. Like, wouldn't we all?

It's a bad habit. Like, it's your culture. It's like your history of like, we worship this God. Like, our family history is based in like the miracles of this God. Like, of course, it's gonna be hard to extract.

The Burning Bush and Moses’s Reluctance to Return

Okay, so let's get into the burning bush. I will read Exodus 3, verses one through six, and then we'll just, we'll get right in. Okay, so Exodus 3, one through six. Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro in his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire, it did not burn up. So Moses thought, I will go over and see this strange sight why the bush does not burn up.

This is NIV, by the way. When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, when the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses, Moses. And Moses said, here I am.

Do not come any closer, God said. Take off your sandals for the place where you're standing is holy ground. Then he said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

At this, Moses hit his face because he was afraid to look at God. Okay, terrifying. I just, is it, he's afraid to look at God once he realizes who's he's talking to, but a burning bush that's talking did not scare him?

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I wonder, right? You read what we have. It doesn't, right. Okay, so I wonder how much of it is like, what am I seeing? Am I actually seeing this? What is that? Almost like a shock. And then the fear comes in after.

What am I even seeing? Because that's weird. A bush that's on fire but not being consumed. And talking to me. And talking to me. Like, what? Why is that happening? So I wonder how much of it is just like so shocked and surprised and curious that the fear hasn't even.

And then when you realize, this is a divine being, it's like, okay, now I need to be afraid. Well, it's, is it a divine?

Like, it's a divine being, but is it God or is it an angel? Because it says an angel of the Lord appeared and then it's, I am the God of Abraham, I'm the God of Isaac and Jacob.

So like, who's he talking to? Okay, so I'm gonna say God. Okay. And I'm gonna say that with a caveat. That sometimes in the ancient world, and I'm not saying that ancient Israelites believed this, I'm saying in the ancient world in general, there was this idea that if a divine being, if a God wanted to speak with you, they could, but they could also use like messengers.

So like we would call them angels. And they would almost like inhabit them in a way to like speak through them. And so that concept of I'm speaking to something and there's a God who's the brain behind it would not have been foreign.

Not saying that's 100 what's happening here, but the idea that like he's talking to God in a weird way would not have actually been weird other than the part about talking to God. So like the way itself wouldn't have been all that funky.

It's just the fact that he's talking to God. So yeah, probably God.

That makes me think like, you know, none of like nobody I know has ever talked to God casually in like not a burning bush in the sand, like, but not even like out in a parking lot, you know, like this doesn't happen.

It kind of feels like this was a common occurrence back then. Am I picking up like the right thing? Like, is it just me? Or like, it feels like the Old Testament, there's a lot more like you just come upon a demon and you come upon an angel and you come upon this little saiyan and you're like, I gotta stay away from that burning bush, you know, convicted me last time.

Like that doesn't happen today. So was Moses encountering something where he's like, oh, okay, something weird, not weird to me though, but oh my gosh, it's God. Like it's the God, like now it's weird.

I think that's a really good point. And a lot of Christians actually have a struggle with that because it's like, why doesn't God speak in the same way that he did then? And like the really quick churchy answer is that, well, now we have the Holy Spirit, so we have a different way of communication.

That's like, just want to throw that out there. He is, but it's different. But the other thing too, is just culturally, right? They viewed the spiritual world very differently. Yeah. You know, when we have rain, we know weather patterns and all of that.

When they had rain, they were looking for the spiritual world, right? They were looking for it all the time. So it was just a totally different perspective on life that they had back then than what we have now.

So, you know, when we see something, if I saw something like a burning bush, my first thought would be that's some weird science or it's like a technology thing, but that's not gonna be their first thought.

Their first thought is automatically gonna be there's something spiritual happening here, even if they wouldn't have articulated it in that same way. Okay, okay.

Well, there's this concept of Moses removes his sandals because he's on holy ground. Is it because he's encountering God, boom, that ground is now considered holy?

Yes. Yeah, it's not that there's anything inherently holy about the location and then God comes to it because of that, it's because God is there.

Wow, it's kind of, again, like a cultural thing of like deeming holy areas and building altars. Like, I just personally have moments, but I go back to places where a moment happened as like, oh, that's a memory.

But how often do we say like, this is now declared a brand new value of ground because of something that's happened? But like, we just don't think that way. Again, because we're not encountering God casually like in that way, but like, that's a really, is it like the purpose of divining that is to start building God's church and like defining areas where he existed?

Yeah, there is this idea in the ancient world about the divine having particular homes or locations where they reside. And so that was perfectly at home in the culture, right? We think of the easy example is like the Greeks with Mount Olympus, that God's lived on Mount Olympus.

So having a location that was associated with the divine was pretty common. And so it seems like God is working within that all the way through up to the tabernacle and the temple. And then when we get to the New Testament, God now indwells in the believer.

So we expand what that means, but it just seems that he's working within culture so that they could kind of understand. And imagine if like he told Abraham or Moses, I'm gonna indwell in you. They're gonna be like, what do you mean?

What is that?

But they were afraid of God. Like there is this like thematic concept within Exodus where every time he sees God, he can't look or he has to like pass by and look away or his face is shining. Like this concept of seeing God is an experience within itself.

But now that this is the first time for Moses, he's afraid to see God. Is that a, this is a lowercase G. God, of course I'm afraid, or there's a difference here of like, this is the uppercase G.

So I'm more afraid than I would have been with anybody else. Maybe both. I think the fact that God defines himself as the God of his ancestors adds that second level of who he is. But I think any experience with something that is considered divine or spiritual brings about a level of fear.

And then we add on top of that, this is the God of my ancestors. Oh my goodness. This is the God I'm going to be working with. I'm gonna be following. Who's asking me to go do all of these things adds a whole nother level, I think, of seriousness to the situation.

Got it.

God’s Name and Moses’s Imposter Syndrome

Okay, let's keep going in the verse. Now we're gonna read verses three, I'm sorry, seven through 12. And this is where the Lord said, I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers and I'm concerned about their suffering.

So I have come down to rescue them from the land of the hand of Egyptians. So now go, I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people, the Israelites out of Egypt. But Moses said to God, who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?

And God said, I will be with you. Which is so funny because I feel like, of course, Moses, you literally were raised with them. Like who else has like lived with Egyptians also not lived with, like, you're the perfect guy.

Yes, he is. Objectively speaking, he has the resume to do the thing that God is asking him to do. Yeah.

So if Moses just being like, I'm unworthy, like it's like a, not a skill issue. I think you said imposter syndrome.

And I think that's definitely what it is. I think we're dealing with imposter syndrome. Like, he's like, me, you want me to go back? Like. Got it. No, like, I mean, and how many of us do that when we have a calling of some kind?

You're like, you want me to do what?

Nobody's gonna like. Totally. What? Well, he's not like, hey, I need you to go to Egypt, talk to this guy, get around here, do this. He just says, go. Yeah, it's kind of vague. Super vague, super vague.

When God spoke to me, he was like, start a podcast. I'm like, okay, I can fill in the blanks there. But like, hey, just go and free people. Like, that's crazy. That is, I wouldn't know where to begin.

Right, which is, I think, the reasonable human response that when we jump into the story, like we talked earlier, you're watching these movies and things, which is great, I love them. But we're missing that, like trying to put ourselves in that position, how would we feel, and comparing that to the callings that we have on our lives?

Like, you know, I will say when I felt that God was calling me to be a pastor, I was like, me? Uh-uh. Like, no, like, I wasn't raised in a tradition where that was okay, and also, who's gonna listen to me?

And so it's like this layer of like, God calling people and being like, no, no, it's not you anyway, it's him. But it's not you, it's me. But like, no, you gotta do the part, the thing I asked you to do.

Is there an element of fear to go back because of how he left things? Probably.

I think that would be reasonable. I mean, Pharaoh doesn't need anyone's permission to kill anybody anyway, let alone when you do something to, you know, bring it upon yourself, and he did something that could have rendered him punished, and yeah, that doesn't just go away.

Yeah, I think that I would be afraid of like, the ruler of the region being like, hey, didn't you murder that guy? Yeah, you're out. You're like, you're not gonna be welcomed. Right. Okay, let's finish this out with Exodus 3, 13 and 15.

Moses said to God, suppose I go to Israel. I love that, he's like, hypothetically speaking. Yeah. Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, hey, the God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they asked me, what's his name?

Then what should I tell them? This is so crazy, this is actually the verse. God said to Moses, I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites. I am has sent you. God also said to Moses, say to the Israelites, the Lord, the God of your fathers have sent me to you.

Love it. I'd be like, okay, God, hypothetically, what if that doesn't make sense?

Right, like hypothetically, what if the verb to be, which is what we're dealing with here, doesn't actually answer the question? Like, what if they don't know what that means?

Okay, so obviously we're struggling because like grammatically speaking, I am who I am. It's like, okay, that's a crazy name. In the Hebrew sense, did it sound like something else? I don't think so, no.

No, it's the verb to be, it's like a form of the verb to be. Hebrew is a little funky because they didn't have vowel markers at this time. So it's a little bit funky, but yeah, it's basically a form of the verb to be.

It can be like, I am who I am, like it's translated here, or like something about I cause to be is one of the options for how to translate it. I cause to be. Yeah, which is just as confusing, if not more confusing, quite frankly.

Yeah, it seems that, yeah, the name's confusing, yes. I don't know that that's helpful, but yes, confusing, but definitely a clear identity compared to the gods of Egypt or the gods of the Promised Land of Canaan where we're going to get.

It's a very distinctive name. That is interesting. And he's not saying like, what do I tell Pharaoh? What do I tell the Israelites?

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And get started today. We'll see you soon. So I feel like God is like, don't worry about Pharaoh. You're not even gonna be talking to him. You're gonna be talking to my people, the Israelites. And he's like, okay, so like, which God are you?