Review of Three Recent Debates in Speaking Tour

Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reform to Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 5 0 8 0 9 60. That's 5 0 8 0 9 60 and now with today's topic.

Here's James white And it's good to be back with you on this beautiful Saturday afternoon Having spent the past four weeks away from you in essence here on the dividing line

I'm very very appreciative to rich Pierce and to all the gentlemen who came in and worked with rich in In handling the dividing line

I have not and some people will fall to me for this I have not had the opportunity of hearing those programs

It would have been rather expensive to do so online as I was traveling around from motel to hotel on Long Island and unfortunately my

Internet service provider is not nationwide in that sense And so it would have incurred great charges to have listened in to each of the programs

And so I'm just gonna have to trust that All those things that were said were exactly what needed to be said

I've had some people tell me I need to listen But I'm just simply going to trust that everything worked out the way it was supposed to Seriously, very thankful for those who sat in and for the discussion.

Hopefully you were blessed by the discussion of Mormonism the nature of God the doctrine of salvation and to the gentleman who joined rich as well my many.

Thanks I suppose it is incumbent upon me today to give you some Reports since I spoke to you concerning what we are going to be doing on Long Island about what took place over those three weeks especially in light of the fact that many people most people who would be interested in a program of this nature a program that addresses

Christian theology and Apologetics would to be interested especially in the three debates that we did on Long Island The first one was

May 6th against Robert soon Janice on the subject of the mass. The next was on the 12th against mr.

Hamza Abdul Malik a Muslim apologist on the subject does the New Testament teach the deity of Christ and then two days later against a dr

Robert Sabin a oneness Pentecostal who and the subject of that particular debate was does the

New Testament teach the Trinity and I must admit each debate was very

Very different from the others. There were interesting aspects of each and every one now

Those debates were just part of of many many speaking opportunities. I spoke in ten different churches

Over that period of time. It was on WMCA for two hours live call -in right after the st.

Janice debate My very good friend and the gentleman who arranges all these

Long Island trips Mr. Chris Arnzen filled in for Andy Anderson on WMCA that particular day and Dragged me and pastor

Rich Jensen in and just to give you an idea I I cannot in any way shape or form get close to having the ability that Mr.

Arnzen has in in humor. It's just it's just completely beyond me There's no no two ways about that My children will tell you

Having come out to the last two years and visited with Chris and Chris takes us around and does things with us

That's Chris is probably the funniest man alive and as soon as the microphone came on when we were on WMCA He said the

Calvinists have taken over the building We're armed and dangerous Andy Anderson is bound and gagged on the floor

And that's how the two hours started and it only got worse from there, but it was a very interesting time We did a lot of other things other than the debates

But of course everyone's attention focuses upon those specific instances where we do something that's very unusual in this society and that is we actually operate on the assumption that there is truth and that you can know what the truth is and that the truth is important enough to debate it and to present it and to refute error and We've been doing that now.

This was our fourth year the first year We debated gerrymatitics on the Marian dogmas and let me mention just in passing on the way in this afternoon

I was listening to a tape of Eric Svensson debating gerrymatitics just recently on the subject of the bodily assumption

Jerry and I did four subjects They did just one. I think it's better to do just one.

It is easier to focus upon that particular issue But I was just listening to mr.

Svensson's Presentation and it was truly tremendous if you can track down the tape the debate on the on the

I'm sorry Did I say bodily assumption? I didn't mean the bodily assumption on the perpetual virginity of Mary excellent excellent biblical presentation on the part of Eric Svensson who teaches with me for a

Columbia Evangelical Seminary did an excellent job in Presenting that biblical information, but first year we did

Mary and then the second year he and I did solo scriptura That was the gerrymatitics last year

Mitchell Pacwa a Jesuit priest from now he's in Dallas. It used to teach at Loyola in Chicago He and I did the doctrine of the papacy and then this year with mistress and Janice was the subject of the mass

That has been the real focus. We very much promote those debates. We had

I would say 725 to 750 people in attendance at the

Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin Long Island and To get that many Long Islanders together on a religious subject.

I think is quite an accomplishment actually Especially on a Thursday evening and I think in God's providence the

Knicks were not playing that night Which probably helped us out a lot There on Long Island and having as many people there as we did but what we didn't know was that was

National Day of Prayer and We probably would not have been able to fit everybody in if it had been a date

Other than the National Day of Prayer We know of a number of churches That could not send anyone or people couldn't come because they had things going on at their church at that time on the

National Day of Prayer so Next year we'll have to keep a keep an eye out on what dates we're scheduling things on so that we don't run into that Particular that particular problem be that as it may that's where the focus is is on the subject of what happens at these debates

And it's always interesting People say, you know, why do you bother to do this because you know, there are people who come to these debates both

Protestant and Catholic or this year Protestant Catholic Christian Muslim Christian oneness

Pentecostal There are people who come to these these debates and their minds are already made up There's nothing that you can say to them.

That's gonna change their mind. Why do you bother and I say well, of course I'm well aware of that There's people on both sides of the debate who come and all they're gonna hear is what they want to hear

All they're gonna hear is is what is supportive of what they already believe. I'm well aware of that I do not do debates to try to convince the unconvincible

I do not try to allow myself to become frustrated when I encounter those individuals and they are all over the place

That can hear everything that I have to say and it's just like it goes it's a proverbial phrase in one ear right out the other

They can come to debates where my opponent acts in a particular way that is that is unbecoming and they don't see that Instead they'll read every type of motivation into anything that I say or any look that I give or so on so forth

I realize that a lot of the people who come to a debate are not going to be fairly judging a debate

I recognize them and I don't think there's anything that can be done about that one way or the other those aren't the people

I'm debating for There's two basically two classes of people that I do debates for and I realize that a lot of them

Aren't even at the debate when it's taking place. They're gonna see it either in videotape all three debates this year were videotaped

Some I think of higher quality than others. We'll see when we get the tapes hopefully over the next week week and a half

Where we got the highest quality and where we didn't And audio taped these these tapes go all over the place

I get comments all the time from people who are listening to debates that I did back in 1991 1992

That type of time frame all the way up to the current debates that we're doing I realized that a lot of the folks that are eventually going to be blessed or helped

Are individuals who at this particular point in time aren't even in the audience? But there may be some that are there as well two classes

There is the believer who is struggling with the claims and accusations of a false religion

Maybe in this case It's it's a believer who's encountered The claims of Roman Catholicism in regards to the early church or in regards to the authority of the church and things like that Maybe it's a person who's talking with Muslims and the

Muslims are attacking the consistency of Scripture or the doctrine the deity of Christ Maybe they're talking with some oneness believers who are denying that the

Sun has eternally existed It all it all depends those folks giving an answer to them and showing them in public how to answer those objections in their own

Encounters that's a primary group that is edifying Believers giving an answer to believers helping believers to grow in their understanding and their presentation of faith very important group

It's not a group that people talk a lot about but it's a very very important group that we debate for the other group is for the person who is looking to really know what the truth is and I Very consistent in believing that outside of the work of the

Holy Spirit of God in someone's heart and mind There isn't anybody like that. There isn't anyone who?

Who is going to be looking for the truth outside of God's grace working in their lives?

but for those who are for those who want to hear a Direct Encounter shall we say between two different beliefs?

I think that I have a tremendous responsibility given that I've been given these opportunities I have a tremendous responsibility to stick to the topic of the debate

To behave in a certain manner and to avoid the use of cheap debating tricks now

I've done many debates where my opponents engaged in every type of cheap debating trick and for people who won't think clearly

Cheap debating tricks work. In fact, I would submit to that the vast majority of public discourse today the vast majority of political discourse today involves the use of cheap debating tricks

Bad argumentation that you're actually taught To avoid that you're actually taught

To recognize if you take classes in logic if you take classes in debate and things like that you're taught

To recognize these errors and to avoid those errors But how many folks today have taken debate or how many folks have taken logic?

How many folks are familiar with any of those kinds of things? Well, that is one of the major problems and so I feel

I have a responsibility to avoid using those cheap debating tricks and to stick to the subject and to show respect for the person who really does want to hear a direct discussion of a particular topic and Trying to keep things on topic is frequently one of the most difficult struggles that that we have to make

Obviously the one that everyone's that well not everyone There's actually a lot of interest in all three of the debates, but the first debate was the largest by far

It took place May 6th as I said about 725 750 people attended and It was on the subject of the mass now we used the exact same format

That we have used for these debates that we used with with dr.

Pacwa last year That was used with Jerry Medetic's the year before on solo scriptura

This is the format that that eventually we developed over the years. It is not a strict debating format

It does assume that both sides will Understand what a that when you're for example doing the cross -examination period that the person asking the questions

Has the same role as the attorney asking questions under cross -examination of the person

In in regards to their presentation regards to data and that a person who is asking the questions has control of the time

But that you're only supposed to ask questions. You're not supposed to be making comments on the answers

You're just supposed to ask questions. You are in control that period of time It assumes that both sides are going to hold themselves to a high standard as far as not taking advantage

Of the freedoms that are provided By not having a debate moderator sitting there who can turn your mic off or who can score you down and do things like that What you'd have in a in a collegiate debate.

Well, the subject was the mass how biblical and how ancient is it? And obviously that means mr.

St. Janice went first Since it was his job to define what the mass is to lay out the dogmatic foundation and to make a case that it is both biblical and That it is ancient unfortunately, mr.

St. Janice Quite simply had a very deficient presentation in fact

I'm looking at the notes that I made here and I noticed in the margin about Mmm a little bit over 60 % of the way through the presentation

I would say I have this written in the margin very confusing very badly organized presentation

There was no introduction Within I'd say a minute or two.

Mr. St. Janice was quoting from all sorts of early church fathers. I happen to note that When you looked out over the audience the glassy eye look had hit very early on Because when a speaker gets up launches into a presentation and within a minute or so is

Quoting from early church fathers most of whom in the audience have either Only barely heard of who they are don't know anything about the background and since you haven't even established what it is

You're trying to prove Very quickly people are just sort of looking around like Okay, this is exciting.

And then after a number of citations of early church fathers. There was a presentation

Not so much on the biblical basis of the mass But for some strange reason the first book

I ever wrote called the fatal flaw became the focus of mr. St.

Janice's comments and he went into the book of Hebrews as anyone must if you're going to be engaging in a discussion of the subject of the mass and the focus was was upon what he felt was a

Contradiction in my own statements concerning the idea that the atonement of Christ is finished in of itself and then the concept of the

Presentation of the atonement before the father and even though in my book I had made it very clear This is not a separate work.

This is merely the presentation of a finished work The Sun goes into the presence of the father and so on so forth even though I had made that very clear in the book this became the focus of Much of the discussion the rest of the debate how that really proves the doctrine of the mass

I don't know But that did become very very important later on in the debate when

I had the opportunity of doing my opening presentation for 30 minutes I Attempted to define the

Roman Catholic position, even though that's not my job I was the one who had to quote from the

Council of Trent and from other sources to even define the exact Claims of Rome and then turn around and refute them the

What we're gonna try to do in the future once the tapes are here is is I would like to actually provide clips and we will play sections of each one of these debates for you and Analyze them for you.

I think it's always best to have direct quotations when you're getting into any of these situations and you're making comments on them and I would like to play especially the section of cross -examination

And I think if we just did the first if we just did the cross -examination you would have a very clear

Taste of what the entire debate was about I had 62 questions

Typed out on my what's called an LG phenom Which is a fact that's sitting in front of me at the moment.

It is it's not really a a laptop computer Because the fact that it's too small, but it's it is a computer that allows me to Have word processing and things like that right in front of me.

I had 62 questions written out and I just went from question to question to question and I did not comment whatsoever on mistress and Genesis responses even when there were a couple times

He said I declined to answer that question. I didn't even bother to say why I didn't even bother to say

Why do you decline to answer that particular issue? I just I just went on from there and Then when mistress and Genesis began to ask questions

He would ask a question and I would respond and then he'd begin commenting on my response

Now that is a clear violation of what the cross -examination period is supposed to be about You're supposed to be asking questions not commenting and finally eventually since the moderator who was a

Roman Catholic by the way would not step In and do anything about I said mistress and Genesis. This is your time for asking questions not making comments and his response and again

I want to be able to play it was that's right. This is my time to ask questions your time to answer

I'm making a comment be quiet and a number of times there were statements made where where people in the audience just gasped at the

At the attitude that was being displayed later on in the second to the cross -examination period when again

My book became the focus of everything Which again, I don't know how that proves the mass.

But anyways, my my book became the focus of everything He read an entire section of the book and then

I read the same section of the book and at one point I made the Comment. Well, I this book isn't even in print anymore, but it certainly is getting a lot of free press this evening, isn't it?

And Then mistress and Janice made the comment Yes I hope everyone goes out and buys your book so they can see all the errors in them and again people are so like no brother

But finally after we had beaten the subject of what my book said to death and I could tell the audience was

The snoring was about to drown out what we were having to say Finally, I said well look mr.

Jazz we disagree on the interpretation of what I wrote here and if there's anything I can claim for myself It is that I am the only infallible interpreter of my own writings and there was a good chuckle of that But mr.

St. Janice then very dryly responded. Well, that's your problem. Mr. White you think you're infallible and again

There were all these groans and so on and so forth So it wasn't overly surprising that when we got to the closing remarks that when mr

St. Janice tried to do what mr. Matic's always does in his debates and say, you know Protestants I know where you are.

I believed like you believed I once viewed things where you view things There are people in the audience just right.

Oh, come on. They just just couldn't just no no way I've you you have no idea what what

I believe and why I believe it and so it was a it was quite the interesting quite the interesting encounter and I think the

The debate will however bring out two issues very clearly One of those was a statement that mr.

St. Janice made and I still have my notes sitting here in front of me quote Yes, we remember our sins when we go to mass end quote

Yes, we remember our sins when we go to mass and the reason that was very significant was that Any person who is familiar with the

Protestant understanding of the death of Christ and the The issues surrounding that well knows that in Hebrews chapter 10, we are presented with the idea that the repetitive sacrifices of the

Old Covenant were a reminder the Greek term is anamnesis a reminder of Our sin the fact that they had to be repeated was a demonstration that they were imperfect

And so that yearly sacrifice that was repeated over and over again The writer to the Hebrews tells us was in fact a reminder of The fact that our sins had not yet been dealt with and that those sacrifices in of themselves were imperfect

But in the New Covenant We don't have an anamnesis of sins, we don't have a reminder of sins

Instead we're told by the Lord Jesus do this in remembrance do this as an anamnesis of me our

Anamnesis our reminder our remembrance is of the Savior who bore our sins not of our sins

And if the mass is a reminder of our sins Then the mass is like those old repetitive sacrifices the

Old Covenant and therefore it is not the representation of the perfect sacrifice of Calvary So that came out very clearly and the other thing that came out very clearly was that we both had to deal with Hebrews chapter 7 especially verse 25

Word has said that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost Those who draw nigh unto

God through him and of course, I just believe what the text says

Jesus himself is able to save Once we started dealing with that issue mistress and Janice and again,

I want to play the exact statement As soon as we have the tapes available to us, which

I doubt will be next week probably the week thereafter but mistress and Janice said that Jesus wants to save to the uttermost those who draw nigh unto

God through him, but but We have to contribute we have to do something and then there's all these things that we do you that contrast between a

God -centered gospel and a man -centered gospel came out very very clearly and for All the other things that the debate wasn't

That it certainly was clear in communicating Again the difference between a

God -centered gospel and a man -centered gospel one that has a Savior who saves

And the other has a Savior who tries to save but needs our help to be able to bring it to fruition

And that is really a fundamental difference that exists between us. And so I'm looking forward to that I hope that we will have you know, keep an eye on our web page at www .aomin

.org Keep an eye on the web page if you would like to see the announcement as soon as we have the tapes available

We're able to start copying them off and making them available both audio and videotapes of the debate on the mass

We will first let you know there and then of course, we'll let you know here on the dividing line as well

I should mention briefly since I bothered to to set it up and before we take a break in a few minutes that I am online currently at AOL if you have

AOL would like to Ask a question via instant message. You can get hold of me. I'm ortho po de o o r t h o p o d e o

Ortho po de o on AOL and my faithful trusty computer is sitting over there and I trust it's still connected to AOL and they haven't timed me out yet and If you'd like to instant message me with a question, you know

Feel free to do so and try to get to it as soon as possible Now obviously the one the one debate the debate debate

That everyone wanted to know the most about as far as it's being very unusual was the one with Hamza Abdul Malik Mr.

Malik is a Muslim apologist who had attended all of the or at least most of the

Roman Catholic debates He didn't make this year's debate interestingly enough, but he had come to the previous debates night

I had noticed him back there. And in fact, he'd asked questions once while he asked a question of Father Paco and myself the previous year on the subject of the deity of Christ and he had contacted

Chris Arntzen and we worked out that so this year we would debate the subject does the New Testament teach the deity of Christ and We had this debate at the

Bible Baptist Church in Syosset New York there on Long Island pastor liverance was the is the pastor of the church and he also moderated the debate did an excellent job

Had a had a crowd of about 50 50 about 50 % Muslim 50 %

Christian It was a very interesting experience to see that There was a videotape crew with a three -camera shoot there

That mr. Malik had brought in unfortunately The the crew ended up being one of the main elements of the debate

Which I don't think is what debate or what the video crews are supposed to do They were all over the place moving all over the place stringing wires while we're speaking

Making a lot of noise and in general distracting everybody from doing what they're supposed to be doing I'm really going to be interested in seeing

What kind of videotape ends up coming out of all of this? But aside from that to one of the most interesting events was when we got started

I went first and as I was making my presentation about five ten minutes into my presentation

Pretty much all the Muslims in the audience got up and left and left all their stuff behind and somehow by God's grace,

I didn't lose my place and Kept presenting the biblical evidence of the deity of Christ and eventually they came back and of course the thought crossed my mind

Did I say something that you know would cause Muslims to to leave? instead what I discovered was it was prayer time and They went out and prayed toward Mecca or at least the direction they figured was toward Mecca and they had to go out and do their praying and Came back later.

So I found that rather an interesting experience to have people getting up and Getting up and doing that kind of thing in the middle of a of a presentation

And of course leaving all the backpacks behind did not make any of us feel overly comfortable either in that particular situation

But in essence the debate boiled down very very quickly and very very clearly to a single issue and I Do have to say that of the three people that I debated

One a Muslim 101 to spin a costume one a Roman Catholic. Mr. Malik was by far The most professional in his demeanor and by far the most fair in his in his debating

Which made it a very clear debate when you're bringing up all sorts of extraneous issues and all sorts of other things like that You're not focused upon what's going on.

The debate has to suffer. It takes two people to create a good debate and Mr.

Malik got up and presented all what I call the bad Jehovah's Witness arguments things like Mark 13 32 or John 17 3

Jesus calls the father the only true God that Jesus doesn't know when he's going to return etc, etc, etc Focusing primarily upon those things and the use of the term

Anthropos Which means man of Jesus in a John 840 then it pretty much boiled down very quickly

Because I then said well are you going to address the passages that I've presented to you after I explained his passages that call

Jesus Christ God and In essence what the debate boiled down to was any passage that identifies

Jesus as God is a later Interpolation it is a textual corruption and is not a part of the

New Testament and When I asked for any evidence whatsoever a single manuscript anywhere to support this assertion

He was unable to give me one and so it became very clear clear very quickly that that in essence this debate should be about the textual purity and trustworthiness of the

New Testament Because most the cross -examination period was taken up in Mr. Malik trying to say that the

New Testament was Unreliable and self -contradictory and therefore we can't accept the passages that teach that Jesus was

God, of course I didn't point out. Well, you like John 840 Why should we accept that as being a testimony to what you believe to be true?

But of course there was really no answer to that Whatsoever the questions afterwards mainly from Muslims were fascinating A number of very agitated people asked questions like what color was

Jesus? And another fellow was very upset that Jesus cursed a fig tree Actually, he was very upset that Jesus didn't know when fig trees were supposed to be in season

That was his big big problem at that point and it was quite an interesting evening on that account

Well, we need to take a take a break I have one other debate to tell you about and if you'd like to ask about some things that took place while we were back there if you'd like to ask about some of the subjects that we addressed and how

I felt those debates went and Maybe some future debate topics anything like that.

Why don't you give us a call at five? Oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero Nine sixty one triple eight talk nine sixty if you're outside the local dialing area

Maybe you just like to say hey get rich and the other guys back We like those guys.

What are you doing on the air babbling at us? Maybe you'd like to say that I don't know five. Oh eight zero nine sixty.

Give us a call and we'll be back after this break And welcome back the dividing line.

My name is James White and I'm looking forward to talking to you this afternoon at five zero eight Zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixty fresh off of three weeks

I don't think the word fresh should be good tired off of three weeks on Long Island ministering the

Word of God there and just filling you in on the debates that took place And what you can expect when those tapes are available here in just a matter of weeks

It is interesting. I I heard someone mention. I think I may have mentioned this in the broadcast a while back that by Approximately and this was one of the statistics

I heard I believe it was by 2040 as I recall the the current trends are at least that's what

I was told the current trends are that 51 percent of African Americans will be

Muslim By the year 2040 at the current rate of growth as I understand there are more mosques than there are

Christian churches in England now These movements are growing And they are militants in their attacks upon the

Christian faith and so it's not just dealing with the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, but there are always those elements of Islam of Hinduism That engage in apologetic behavior and that is they attempt to defend their beliefs and attack the beliefs of others and So I think that there is is every good reason to demonstrate that the attacks made upon the

Christian faith Do not stand up to examination Well the third debate which took place only two days after the

Muslim debate up. I'm sorry There was there was one comment I needed to make that at one point that I'll have to admit.

I had never ever heard whatsoever This this concept before when

I finally asked mr. Malik to really Focus in upon The passages that I had presented one of the passages that I present in in pretty much all of my debates

That's that's relevant at all the Trinity the deity of Christ is the great Carmen Christi Philippians chapter 2 verses 5 through 11

The hymn to Christ as to God and I asked mr. Malik to please address that and in his rebuttal period he did and I admit

This is one of those situations people ask me Well, do you do you encounter stuff in your debates? You've never thought of before you never heard of before so on so forth and sometimes

I do sometimes I don't it depends on what? The subject is there are some subjects I've debated so many times that that there really isn't too much new that you can come up with in those particular areas

But this was one I had never heard of before I'll have to admit right here and right now on the radio

I had never heard of The defense that mr. Malik presented in regards to Philippians chapter 2 he mentioned the passage and then he mentioned the passage that actually

Paul is making reference to at the end of Philippians 2 verses 10 11

Which is Isaiah chapter 45 verses 22 through 23 where Jehovah says that every knee will bow to him

Every tongue will swear allegiance to him and Then he said now, of course over in Ephesians Paul said he bows his knee to the

Father and So that's who he bows his knee to not to Jesus and he was just fooling around with those

Philippians and I Admit that at that time I sort of jerked a little bit somewhat involuntarily and I I looked down the front row

To some of my friends my my children Joshua and summer were there. My wife had been able to fly in This was in fact the first debate that they had ever seen was the debate with mr.

Malik on the subject of His denial the deity of Christ from Islamic perspective and I looked down Toward them and toward Chris Arnson and Larry Carino the pastor of Grace Gospel Church.

He was there to try to Did I miss that did I really understand what was just said?

Try to confirm from them that I had heard what was just said and that's what was said That's a Paul was just fooling around with the

Philippians not I've done a lot of work on Philippians 2 5 through 11 but that was the first time that I had ever encountered the just fooling around defense and I will have to now catalog that one and try to come up with a meaningful response because I Really wasn't sure what exactly to say about that.

Actually, I was sure I got up and said Paul would never quote -unquote Fool around with the glory of God and his truth and the

Christians. They're certainly agreed with that particular Assertion. Well a couple nights later

We went to the Medford elementary school in Patchogue Long Island And we met in we used to call a multi -purpose rooms.

I'm not sure what they call them today gymnasiums or whatever but we met in the the auditorium there and that has the the stage and the curtains and things like that and It was this presentation that I had been most

Not concerned about but wondered how it was going to go Because as we arranged this debate and there were two

Oneness Pentecostal scholars that we were talking with as to who wanted to do this debate. Dr. Robert Sabin who did the debate?

and dr. David Bernard Who is very high up in the United Pentecostal Church International UPCI the main oneness denomination here in the

United States and one of the things that Dr. Sabin had insisted upon being able to do was to make a

PowerPoint presentation now people in business Know what PowerPoint presentations are my wife had seen many a

PowerPoint presentation She had talked to me about PowerPoint before and it's basically presentation software that allows you to Create a presentation

Animate things and put in pictures you can put in movies and sound and do all sorts of stuff with it You can get very very fancy and then with the use of a digital

Projector you can project this and make a presentation directly from your laptop directly from your computer to a large group or a small group of people depending on on what the the context is and At the time when he made this demand

I'm sort of like how I've never done anything like that before and you know Really if he's gonna do it, I have to I can't this is a tough subject

The doctrine of the Trinity is not an easy subject to try to condense down to 30 35 minute presentations

It's very easy to get off track in a debate on the subjects of the Trinity and go off this direction in that direction and and Bring up 5 ,000 different subjects that really aren't relevant and completely lose the audience

Which means you're doing nothing up there, but but wasting your breath and accomplishing nothing so I went out and I bought about PowerPoint and I just figured well, we'd have to Borrow rent do something as far as a digital projector went

Thankfully God was very merciful and a projector was donated to us Before I went to Long Island and it ended up being the providence of God And what

I mean by that is I used the projector and PowerPoint and my Bible software on my computer almost everywhere.

I spoke And the impact was tremendous Obviously, I'm a very boring speaker to begin with so to have some pictures on the wall

Really helped out a lot Especially on difficult subjects and when I'd be addressing for example the deity of Christ I'm like that putting my

Bible software up on the on the wall Bible works 3 .5 for example and showing people exactly how these things work rather than just simply saying it had a tremendous impact

In regards to people understanding what was being said, in fact, one of the greatest opportunities

I had was before the debate the first debate I spoke for about Three and a half hours over two meetings on the same day on a

Saturday at the Worldwide Church of God yes, the Worldwide Church of God the former

Armstrong movement, which in 1995 broke from its background and I had the opportunity to present the doctrine of the

Trinity to the Worldwide Church of God and these people were hungry for God's truth and if I hadn't had that projector and if I hadn't

Put together a presentation on the Trinity before I left It would have been extremely difficult to present such a topic in that context

But instead the people understood they enjoyed it and they've insisted that I come back next year and do a whole series on the

Foundational Christian doctrines for the Worldwide Church of God. It's an incredible story incredible experience that I had there

One of many wonderful experiences, but going back to the debate with a dr Sabin we set up both of our video projectors both of our laptops next to each other

I mean talk about techno geeks. We we looked we looked like the worst techno geeks on the planet

Up there with our laptops and projectors and Laser pointers and all the rest of stuff.

I can't imagine that Ulrich's Wingly would have recognized that we're doing a theological debate

He'd walk in with his Latin Texas Greek Texas Hebrew text to sit down and say let's get at it Well, we did it with IBM and versus Mac.

He had a Mac and I had an IBM some Anyways, I gave my 40 -minute opening presentation on the subject of the

Trinity and specifically focusing upon the issue with oneness Pentecostal ism and that is Did the

Sun as the Sun? Exist prior to the incarnation they deny that the one being of God is shared by three persons there's only one person they are

Unitarian technically at that point and So my presentation was focused on the prologue of John on John 17 5 and the

Carmen Christi Philippians 2 5 through 11 each one of which clearly demonstrates The pre -existence of Christ as a person distinct from the father, but as a divine person

Prior to the incarnation and so I gave my presentation of the projector worked great.

The presentation worked great. I sit down and Dr. Sabin gets up and makes a few comments and then begins a 20 minute recitation of the burning of Michael Cervetus in Geneva Now Michael Cervetus was an interesting fellow

I know I could get into him today But Michael Cervetus basically held to somewhat of a oneness viewpoint not exactly like they have today

But he was a famous heretic of the 1600s and the Inquisition caught him was gonna burn him But he escaped and it's a long story, but he spent 20 minutes of his 40 minute opening presentation

Just telling the story of Michael Cervetus and at least at the beginning. He was that he was willing to say now I'm not accusing.

Mr. White. I'm not accusing. Dr. White of burning Michael Cervetus, which I was appreciative of since this was over 400 years ago but In the second half of the debate it did come out very clearly

When dr. Sabin began to say if this doctrine is so clear and easy to believe Why do you have to kill people to get him to believe it?

And I'm sort of looking around looking for dead bodies around my my table, but didn't find any it sort of degenerated after the break into an interesting presentation, but he only used the

PowerPoint for 13 minutes and the PowerPoint presentation was white letters on a black background and Really got into almost nothing in in regards to the use that PowerPoint presentation device.

So it was interesting to me Then the providence of God we now have a tremendous tool of ministry that we used in a number of churches

I used it to present a presentation on evangelizing Roman Catholics at the Wantaw Baptist Church earlier in my time in Long Island and it was just so effective in helping to people helping people to see what you're talking about and to take proper notes and to really communicate to folks so even though My opponent only used it for 10 13 minutes and in the entirety of the debate

Still we now have this device and we'll be using it in in the future and I think that will be very very useful

We do have a caller online. We'll take your calls I have about 15 minutes left on the program here on the dividing line five zero eight zero nine sixty

And we're gonna take a brief break and be right back The phone lines are now open at five zero eight zero nine sixty, that's five zero eight zero nine sixty

Please call because the more my husband talks now the less he'll talk when he gets home Unfortunately, I've been doing most of the talking and now it's your turn to get involved in the program five zero eight zero nine sixty

Let's talk to Ray in Phoenix. Hi, Ray. How you doing? Hi, Dr. James, I used to be a

Mormon I was raised up in Utah and thank God for his salvation and the free grace.

I'm you know, yes Really thankful for that I rejoice every day Utah's an engine where where in Utah were you?

Raised up there in that little community long time ago That's down where KTK K radio is that I've gone to many a time just past it's very close to the

West Jordan Temple out There I used to ride my horse all over there. Yeah, they're building it up, aren't they?

Just it's just Amazing and my heart goes out to the people so much.

I mean I can pray for him and just start weeping You know, they're almost almost weep as I say it, right?

They could just see the grace there is a couple of scriptures bothered me, though Even though I am, you know,

I've been even baptized known Christian and everything and this one is in Genesis 3

Where the serpent tempted even says well, you won't die God knows very well that you eat when you eat it.

You'll become like God's because your eyes will be open, right? Knowing good from evil good from evil, but all the pastors and everybody

I hear say well, that's the lie But then in Genesis and you know,

I'm as Genesis 3 22 God says now that the man has become as we are knowing good from evil so actually

It he almost confirmed knowing good from evil what Satan said that what

Satan said was Right as far as knowing good from evil come so it always bothered me that I never hear somebody say

That the Lord said that You know, it's there in black and white. No, well it yeah, it's right there in the text, but of course the application is simply in the sense of In fact the very phrase knowing good and evil defines the likeness of man in this particular instance

And that is knowing good and evil now Experientially though on man's part. It's not experiential on God's part

But that is the the original state was that was corrupted and I would say as far as Mormonism is concerned that you need to recognize that from their perspective

Adam fell that men might be and men aren't they might have joy as the Book of Mormon says and that Adam Specifically in the pre -incarnate state made the decision that he would do this that's that they don't use the term sin

Transgression of what and that was because it was he chose to do this in the pre -existence to bring about the plan of mortality

So instead of it being an act of rebellion In Mormonism, it was a necessary act

Right, which certainly isn't what the scriptures teach the scriptures teach that certainly the man

Since he has fallen and since he has rebelled against God Now experientially knows good and evil and therefore is driven out of the garden and the lie of Satan is is really more in the sense of not providing the the the full truth shall we say in regards to that so Most definitely the the lie is that you will be like like God That's what he said before.

Oh God didn't really say that Well, I'm not only that but he said the servant said the woman you surely will not die

Well spiritually the most definitely did and that brings about the physical death as well yeah, and so there was a lie there, but the lying part is that you will not die not the

Knowing good and evil part which of course I don't think until they experienced that they could fully understand what in the world he was talking about So it's right there and right there in black and white.

You're quite correct about that I'll call you next week with the other one. I got to find out exactly where it's at and I'll be at peace

Alrighty. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye five zero eight zero nine sixty is the number for you to call five zero eight zero nine sixty we still have a few moments left this afternoon if you'd like to hear a

Clarification or something about passage of scripture or something that I said in regards to these three debates as I said

We will be making the videotapes available the audiotapes available eventually

Lord willing as time allows place them on the web for people to hear and Again, if time allows

I would like to actually write some articles about them and then use clips on the website to illustrate various points

Especially in regards to how we are to argue I I really think that as Christians today as we look at the situation in our land and and before I left

I made I made the comments concerning Littleton Colorado and the situation that's developed there a month ago now

I think Christians especially in our land need to be a thinking people We need to be people who who can think clearly can speak clearly we need to spend time thinking about our faith and thinking about What we

Believe and how to communicate to other people and how that impacts Our lives and I think debates are one way in which we can sort of test

You know, am I thinking clearly am I thinking carefully about what people are saying?

One question was asked by an anonymous person in the control room also known as Dave How did the

Muslim deal with the deity of Christ? Well, he did so by saying that every single passage that teaches it isn't a part of the

New Testament. So I asked him well Since you believe he's merely a man Can you show me any any?

historical evidence whatsoever in regards to Where these verses how these verses were inserted when they were inserted?

Can you show me any manuscript? It doesn't have them No, I can't do that Well, then how do you know that they were inserted because they have to have been inserted because the

Bible clearly teaches that there's only one God and Jesus isn't him and The amazing thing was that when you compare that response with the response of the oneness

Pentecostal They both ended up saying the same thing when I forced a dr Saban to deal with for example

Colossians chapter 1 verses 15 through 17 where There the the

Lord Jesus described as being the one through whom by whom and for whom all things are created

Dr. Saban basically had to say well, all those simply mean that everything was made with reference to Jesus, but he didn't exist yet And when

I pushed on that his response had to be well, it can't mean that Because for 4 ,000 years people believe that God is one

And that's exactly what my Muslim opponent said and what makes that interesting is the one that's

Pentecostal believes that Jesus Christ is God Because the father in dwells the son and it's the father who's

God the son is not But the Muslim denies the deed of Christ and yet they use the exact same arguments the exact same arguments and it was fascinating to To recognize that even though one would say

Jesus is just a man and the other side would say Jesus is God Almighty That they'll use the exact same arguments against the doctrine of the

Trinity And I think if you obtain those debates, you'll as well find those comments to be most interesting

One thing is we're running out of time let me just mention something I hope is encouraging to you and that is the more

I Engage in these types of debates and the wider the subjects that I address and the more arguments

I hear against against the Christian faith Let me tell you from my own experience and my experience is just my experience

It's not something to base anything on but in my experience Christian truth shines ever brighter

Against all the backdrop of error that I encounter and the more I have to delve into the truth

To defend the truth the more consistent it becomes the more clearly

I'm able to see that God's truth stands firm and that the Word of God is

Consistent with itself It does not contradict itself. The balance of the

Word of God is truly amazing and truly Beautiful and I can tell that to you and you can hear me say that and hopefully that's encouraging to you

But there's some there's a there's another level that goes beyond that when you've seen it for yourself And when you experience it for yourself, and I think that's why we all need to be students of the word

I think that's why it's good that we have our faith challenged the early Christians clearly Had to have their faith challenged on a regular basis and when you do you find that God's truth is consistent that God's truth is

Faithful and that's a truly wonderful thing. So keep your eyes peeled if you have access to the internet

Make sure to check us out at www .aomin .org I'll be putting a report on the trip up there tried to get it done yesterday didn't get it done

Somehow lost a little extra time this week because my dear son decided to a break his arm a couple days ago and so he and I spent quite some time at the emergency room and but the

Lord is very faithful and he's doing well, but try to get that report up on the web page as soon as possible so that you can have that information and a lot of other things the plans within plans for the future for the debate next year a

Series of debates actually next year again that I think if the Lord blesses and we're able to put these together should be extremely useful