The Local Church Worldwide — George Verwer

The book of Acts chapter 11, let's just pray our God and father. We thank you for the privilege of Being here together looking into your word looking out over the harvest field waiting on you and Just help us to absorb all that you want us to absorb now in Jesus name amen.

Verse 19 and now they who were scattered abroad Upon the persecution that arose about Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch preaching the word to none, but unto the Jews only and some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene Who when they were come to Antioch spoke unto the Greeks Preaching the Lord Jesus and the hand of the Lord was with them and a great number believed and turned unto the Lord and tidings of these things came under the ears of the church, which was in Jerusalem and They sent forth Barnabas That he should go as far as Antioch.

When he had come and had seen the grace of God was glad and exhorted them all That with purpose of heart they would cling unto the Lord and He was a righteous man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith and many people were added unto the Lord.

Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus to seek Saul. When he had found him he brought him on to Antioch and it came to pass that for a whole year they assembled themselves with the church and taught many people and Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.

Then we read about them sending a gift back to the church in Jerusalem. Quite interesting the newly found church ends up sending a gift back. You know to the Older church a little different than it is generally these days and then acts 13.

Now when they verse 1 Now there were in the church That was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers as Barnabas. Simeon was called niger. Lucius serene my name. Who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch and Saul?

As they ministered to the Lord and fasted. The Holy Spirit said separate me Barnabas and Saul from the work unto which I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed they laid their hands on them and they sent them away.

So they being sent forth by the Holy Spirit departed unto Salusia and from there they sailed to Cyprus and when they were at Salamis they preached the Word of God in the synagogue of the Jews and They had also John as their helper.

This morning I want to speak to you on the subject of the local church. I want to speak to you about the history of OMS relationship with the local church. I Want to speak to you about? The place of the local church in world evangelism.

I want to speak to you about some of the extremism. That it's possible to get into once we get this vision for the local church and Hope to bring in a few other related things. Like the outline of a message that I want to give you right now.

Called why I believe God is working in such a wide range of groups and churches. Why I believe God is working in such a wide range of groups and Churches, I think this is so important today. We live in a global village.

Provincialism and Sectarianism in the Christian World

Many of God's people despite this are still very provincial very local. They don't see beyond their own little county maybe their own little town. I've been overwhelmed with this in England to meet so many people who are provincial.

I once thought as Americans we led the world in being provincial until I started to fellowship with our English counterparts, especially in villages and small towns and moreso among God's people. Who often get such a narrow view of what God is doing as if everything that God ever did started in England.

Just as some Americans very much get the idea. Sometimes that every really big thing that God has done started in California or at least in the United States. Even when we read our Christian periodicals in America It generally tells us what American Christians are doing what American theologians are thinking.

People openly complained about the World Congress on evangelism that was so dominated by Americans and It was quite a shock for some as shared by one Englishman when finally they thought there was someone else that could possibly lead the singing apart from Cliff Burroughs of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

Of course America is a huge country with a huge church and Any who are not Americans should not be surprised of course that Americans are found in many places. It's Partly linked with the sheer numbers the sheer numbers if there were 40 million Russian evangelicals and Russians had total freedom to go anywhere in the world I dare to say We would be dominated in the evangelical world by the Russians.

Oh That it would be so. At least it would be a relief or a change for some of us. But there is a danger in any country that we become very provincial and Close to provincialism in the Christian world is sectarianism.

We see our group. We have a number of groups in England now whose goal is Outwardly it seems world missions, but when you study it it's to spread their vision to other countries. This gets incredibly complex out in the mission field.

I know in Nepal over the years the many different people that have arrived in Nepal to give their vision and They present it in a way that Revival is taking place in our hometown, and if you do this this and this you will have revival to the chaos of the church in Nepal.

Because of people who have arrived pushing their vision people Failing to realize they're basically presenting a provincial sectarian viewpoint. Then of course there's the effort To try to convince people that what's happening in our little church or our little group is the true Revival in these days and we have really got that special touch from God.

This produces a super and hyper spirituality that is very hard to contain. Others are judged. OM of course was wiped off years ago. And is annually wiped off the slate by people who have this kind of super spiritual mentality.

Understanding the Worldwide Church

In the light of a lot of the problems in the church today I thought it would be good to give some of the reasons why I believe God is working in different nations in different ways in different people and That we therefore especially as a worldwide movement need to understand the church.

Not just our church our little group. But to understand the church as a whole. I Find Anglicans don't have a clue about Lutherans. I Find Lutherans don't know anything about Anglicans. Baptists they're so big now so strong.

They they don't even want to know about some of the other groups. And if you're not in the Baptist mold well You're just you know not worth really fellowshipping with praise God. There are many Baptists who don't believe that way and I just hope that as we are trained in OM it will not be some narrow little om is sectarian training program.

But that we will have a wider view. God wants people Who are willing to look at the big picture picture of the whole church worldwide. The church in China, which is so unique. To get to understand that church how it's developed during the time of persecution how it was before that persecution the groups that fellowship with watchman knee and The divisions and struggles they went through and where that has gone to up to this day.

The groups that were more linked with men like one Ming Tao the groups that were more denominational. How liberalism came in and took over many of the groups and was so unbelievably used by the communists.

Rather than just studying one little group in China. Getting excited about that and thinking surely that is the way God works. And then actually trying to make a carbon copy of that group in your little hometown back in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

One of the things that has caused the greatest confusion is when people have tried to transplant a church. Which they felt was the New Testament Church but what which was in fact a church very much affected by a particular national culture and Though there were New Testament aspects and God used it.

The cultural aspects were also there and people found it very difficult to overthrow. Those aspects. Let me give the specific reasons now because this is only my little warm-up. For my main message, and it's liable to take too much time number one the reason I Believe God is working in such a wide range of groups is not is history.

Church History as a Source of Perspective

I find many people do not study church history. They do they just they just Read it from one particular denominational viewpoint. History is a very complex subject. It was my subject at college University.

Before I left there and went to Moody Bible Institute and there my favorite course was church history. I've always believed that in one sense. There are two Bibles for the Christian to read. There's the Bible the Word of God, and there's the Bible of history don't misunderstand that.

But if something actually happened in history like Hudson Taylor Being led of God to go to China if things actually happened if prayer was answered if people were converted this is Factual and therefore we can learn something from it.

A lot of the Bible is history. It needs to be read as history. When people over spiritualized certain basically historical passages of the Bible especially from the New Testament sooner or later to probably start a cult and A lot of the extremism of our day a lot of heresy comes through taking Old Testament passages out of context.

Certainly a lot of legalism comes that way and Basically, I'm convinced if you want to you can get anything you want from the Old Testament. Especially if you rationalize take things out of context you have Christian leaders who have justified concubines they have their verse.

You have the seven-day adventures trying to get us all to worship on Saturday if you've ever discussed things with him. Hey, they've got verses and Of course if you get involved in the Herbert W. Armstrong cult.

You'll discover that he's still celebrating the Feast of the Tabernacles somewhere over in Texas every once in a while. And he has verses for a lot of the things that he's into as well so I commend the study of history.

I'm Finally getting into volume 2 of Whitfield. I've waited 10 years for this book. I read volume 1 around the turn of We turned over from the 60s into the 70s. By this man Dillamore an incredible book of 500 pages now.

I'm waiting my way through. I misplaced my copy volume 2 and oh what I've been able to learn what I've been able to glean from that a Definitive biography of Whitfield which touches on a lot of the early Wesley movement.

When I read volume 1 I read one of the very strong pro John Wesley volumes at the same time and combined that with the research and study of the Salvation Army. What a challenge that was around the same time.

I was reading the Marshall a story of William Booth daughter. And because William Booth was so extreme, and he was an extremist and God uses extremists. And perhaps if they were less extreme he could have used them more though.

I'd have to check that out when I get to heaven but he kicked his own daughter out of the Salvation Army because he said I'm your father first and I mean, I'm your general first and your father second you disobeyed a command she was out.

She went on to be one of the greatest evangelists of her time. I Almost made that book required reading within OM. But the male chauvinistic side of operation mobilization fought it and it didn't it didn't get launched.

No, actually it was the women who fought it because it is a very very upsetting book. In the 20th century of course I'd be the first one to admit to say that people like the Marshall Are God's exceptions.

They're not the normal way of life for the the way God normally leads a woman, and I think that's so important. Because if you pattern your life after God's exceptions. The Billy Braves the WP Nicholson's I've just been listening to one of his sermons one of the most fiery Irishman when he at Cambridge University the place was never the same.

And he had all the things that you would think a man should have. To be able not to make an impact at Cambridge University I Didn't know they had any recordings of this man before he died. But in his latter years they got some tape recordings of this man.

And he is an amazing person. He was speaking at tent hall a ministry born through the ministry of Dale Moody and in Glasgow the man was making too much noise he sort of lost his his. Whatever when he was preaching and he said now if this man down here in the 15th row does not quiet down I will personally come down and punch him in the nose.

You think you've got troubles with me, but I think We will always be in trouble and a movement will be in trouble if we pattern ourself after God's Unusual men. God raises up unusual men of course in a sense.

We're all unusual you can tell that just by looking around as you did recently. But can you imagine if all the women are no M started patterning themselves after the Mara Shaw. By the way, she did get married.

We never heard much about her husband. She did keep her baby. She had a lot of children. I was recently with her daughter some some years ago now and And The only case we're ever heard of the same vision that I had.

I had the vision. So I would never buy anything my early days of marriage to keep the children where we were born in the dresser drawers. I thought these are handy. You know so Benjamin stayed in this drawer.

After a while. I took it out of the bureau so he could have more air and I Was so excited when I read this book the Mara Shaw because here She was how many years before I ever was ever born and she kept her children.

She had a whole pile of them in the different drawers. I was recently on the phone with her granddaughter who lives in Bromley and her granddaughter is Going on for the Lord Jesus Christ if you want to read some exciting history read something of Whitfield something of Wesley mix it a little bit with a Salvation Army and Of course to to top it off get into the history of the Plymouth Brethren.

That is really an unusual history when you read about Newton and Darby and the split they had and Mueller. You read about the birth of that movement so history. I believe history of all these different groups history of the Pentecostal Church the history of the holiness movement.

The history of certain individuals who made such a strong impact on the church and then to Get to mix with some of these people today in different parts of the world and Discover that in most of these groups.

There are still live churches there are still born-again people and They're going on for God. They're helping in evangelizing the world and Therefore I don't believe any group of live believers Regardless of their label should be left out of our thinking we may not always be able to work together.

We may not agree and OM has never had a deep relationship with the Salvation Army. Though we have many similarities many unbelievable differences though. We've had many good personal contacts and Of course you will discover in most of the groups today That there's a wide range of people within each group through history there have been always those who felt led out of the church when the church was beginning to deteriorate and Those who remained within the church and fought for Reformation.

You see this in the history of the church in England in fact in in the beginning of Puritanism and Protestantism as we would know it and the Reformation at the Around fourteen hundred and ninety around that period to at the end of the reign of Queen Elizabeth before James took over.

You find that they had two kinds of non-conformists you had the non-conformists who left the Anglican Church usually got martyred. Not all of them, and that brought the birth of what's were called the free churches.

They were called separatist churches. They were called non-conformist churches the same time you had men remain within the Anglican Church who were called non-conformist within the church who worked for Reformation within the church and today really the contemporary British Evangelical Anglican the John Stott the Michael Green and many others really Can be traced back to those non-conformists who remained within the church.

One of the interesting things about that period of history. Was that a Roman Catholic? Who remained within the church, but who refused to go along with the deception of Henry? The eighth. The man who's Portrayed in the film a man of all seasons of film.

If you ever go to do loss you'll have the opportunity of seeing it. Someone throw his name out. Thomas Moore here was a man who was a Roman Catholic and yet his teachings his emphasis and his life Helped actually bring in the Protestant ethic of the 16th century.

God used many many different kinds of people to bring the Protestant the Reformed and eventually the Evangelical Church and eventually all of these different groups. That in that day would be classified as free churches.

Little did they dream. How many different? separations there would be. One of the the most unique things about history is that often groups that break away from dead churches? To start what they feel is the true church suffer from division within the first few years and Some cases end up in the most unbelievable form of extremism.

Some of the first Puritans they were only just being called that that left Britain running for their lives. I read this morning about one group that tried to get in a boat in Boston to get out of Britain unless they lose their heads or Not be able to worship the Living God, and they had this ship all arranged.

There's only one problem the captain Was a phony and when he had him all on the ship he turned them over to the government and they were killed and jailed. Unbelievable story, but amazing those that finally got over to Holland and a group of these early Protestants got to Amsterdam within the first year they divided in the most weird divisions one over lace over whether they should wear lace and a Group pulled out from that group they went to a place in the Netherlands called Leiden and there and that was the encouraging part of this morning's history lesson a Beautiful fellowship was born where for years there was no division and they functioned as a powerful body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Personal Acquaintance Across Christian Traditions

So history has caused me to believe God works in a wide range of ways and today God is working in a wide wide wide range of way. Number two Personal acquaintance, this is one of the blessings of OM and It's true in other fellowships as well to go to different countries and to meet different people to discover a Beautiful dear committed loving Christian before you find out what his label is and discover.

It's one of the labels that you've not yet totally accepted what a mind-bending experience. Especially if you discover, it's one of the labels that you've actually attacked in one of your more Fervent moments so personal acquaintance.

On my own in my own situation in some 40 50 nations of all kinds of people from all different backgrounds. Has been such a help for me on this and then thirdly the Word of God. That really is first. Especially the book of Acts as we saw two days ago.

But what different ways that God was working and even here in this morning's reading How we see different kinds of people being used to bring this church in Antioch into being we don't even know where they came from and Some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene who when they were come to Antioch spoke unto the Greeks preaching the Lord.

Well, I should I need to be corrected because it shows there where they did come from. From Cyprus and Cyrene and then Verse 21 and the hand of the Lord was with him and a great number believed and turned unto the Lord.

We don't know where these men came from in terms of their church affiliation we know that a wide number of people were scattered abroad according to verse 19 and persecution and. And Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, maybe these were converts of Stephen.

Needless to say they certainly fit into the description of being a team. More than they fit into a description of being a local church they were a team of men and they were used to start the church in Antioch and Then the church in Antioch apparently got things more organized and they later in chapter 13 sent out These Apostles disciples and that's called the first sending forth of missionaries.

Well, I'm getting ahead of myself because I want to touch on that later on but you'll see plenty of indication in the Word of God if you study it as Objectively and it's free from prejudice. It's just very very hard as you possibly can number four the emphasis on love.

Love, Unity, and Fellowship Amid Doctrinal Differences

I Don't know how you can emphasize love and unity which is such a biblical principle and not want to fellowship with all believers and try to believe the best and listen them out and Love them and love even when you may not agree and.

And some of the groups that I may indirectly Come down on in my session this morning. I still Love those people especially Believers and long to see them come into greater balance and unity. Obviously, they may long for me to come into greater balance and unity and of course disagreeing With other Christians is as basic as Breathing if you're in the church.

We're human beings. We have many convictions many beliefs. We're not going to agree with everyone. It's so strange that often people think well, you know, I shouldn't come into something like oh unless I agree with everything.

This is ridiculous. I'd have to leave on the basis of that. How do you get a spiritual movement to to represent only sort of one thing. Especially a movement that is not run by on a dictatorial basis.

It's run as a fellowship where there's freedom given to various countries where leaders have have liberty to get on with the job meeting together with their co-leaders and. So I think it's so important to see that unity comes in the midst of diversity and.

And some of the greatest blessings in history have come when people who didn't all agree labor together in the name of the Lord and then number five. What is going on right around the world that which is taking place right around the world.

Learning from the Global Church

I've been reading some of the things and talking to people about what's been going on in Finland. So totally different from England. I Periodicals and pick people's brains from land's end to the north of Scotland and it's amazing.

But it's very different from what's happening in the United States. The United States being the biggest of all the evangelical bodies. Perhaps is the most complex the most difficult to understand. That's why it it does grieve me when Some people including one Englishman who went to America recently for a couple of months came back and wrote for one of the British periodicals the most unbelievably Negative and sarcastic things against Christianity in the United States.

It does grieve me when some people including one Englishman who went to America recently for a couple of months came back and wrote for one of the British periodicals the most unbelievably Negative and sarcastic things against Christianity in the United States.

And that's something Americans have been guilty of as well. It takes a long time to understand a country and the church that's in the country. And it grieves me also that within OM, often I hear people making sweeping statements about other groups when they don't really know what it's about.

And when there are many, many, many aspects to that particular fellowship or movement or emphasis. This is why we're always, every Leaders' Conference, pleading with people to avoid generalizations, avoid making decisions or statements when you're not sure what it's all about.

And I just feel one of the reasons that we want to work with such a wide range of people around the world is because God is already. And if God's working there, in most cases, I think we ought to be able to and should work at least to some degree.

The Mission Is Too Great for Division

And then, number six, the way is already so narrow, we already are so few, I don't think we can afford some of these divisions. We're not maintaining a close linking with Youth With A Mission because we believe the exact same way that they believe, have the same practices, agree with everything they do.

And do you think for a minute that they would agree or have the exact same way of doing things as we would in Operation Mobilization? In many ways, over the past years, we've seen the tremendous differences in the area of guidance, in a number of other areas, as we've fellowshiped and we've talked.

But we feel that there are so few of us in this job of world missions, there are so many people in the world, the harvest is so huge, we're not sending anybody out to the Cambodian refugees, we're not going to use our ship for relief work and hauling refugees from Cambodia to South America.

The task is so great, the job is so huge, we can't afford division. There will be differences, and God will use different groups in different ways. It would be ridiculous to think that we were the same as Campus Crusade for Christ, or that we understood or agreed with everything they were doing and the way they go about it.

And I'm sure the same would be true of their evaluation of us. First of all, of course, to make an evaluation, we need to do a lot of research. I spend hours and hours every week researching everything I can lay my hands on to keep up with the movement of modern missions, and then I also have men, of course, doing it for me, trying to feed back to me the things that are relevant.

In fact, sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, all that we're trying to keep up on. But you can often mix things together. I'm going to a particular group to preach, I got an hour before the meeting, so I can ask a lot of questions.

They always want to give me tea after the meeting, I can ask a lot more questions. So a lot of my information, for example, on the Church, comes from preaching in probably more than 40 to 50 different denominations and groups and streams within the Christian Church down through the years.

And so that's sometimes a more exciting way to learn than just reading a book. So the way is already so narrow, I don't think we can afford these divisions. This is why we've committed men to help and work in the Campus Crusade film program in India, as hard and as complicated as it has been getting.

This is why we have given copies of our line-up manual, a book that thick, to youth with a mission a long time ago, and have tried to have contact with them about their ship ministry. And then, seventhly, and there's a lot more I could say about that, but we're running short on time, I've come to see that God honors faith.

God Honors Faith Through Imperfect Vessels

And linked with that, He works through earthen vessels. I've had to go back on statements I made, most of them before 13 years ago, statements I made about certain men of God that I was so upset with their methods, so upset with their extremes, that I made public statements and named them.

Only a few times I've done this. And in a couple of cases, I've had to eat my words. And one particular case I can think of was a man who was a healer, and he seemed so extreme to me. Of course, one of the things I've had to learn through all this, is that God uses people despite their extremes.

Sometimes He seems to use them because of their extremes. And if you're a person with no extremes whatsoever, especially at this stage of your development, you know, you may have a real problem. And isn't this so often the case that we, instead of people who are on the march and on the move, and therefore probably have some extremes, people today are just indifferent.

And no wonder someone brought in the phrase, evangelifish. It frightens me. And I'll never forget being with Brother Andrew. I guess he would be classified as an extremist by some. He certainly is attacked by a few people.

And I remember preaching over in Holland at a conference with him, and I've always been more cautious about giving invitations, and not wanting people to become too emotional, and you know, I wrestle with all these things.

We were talking together, some of you have heard this. He said, did you give an invitation this afternoon? I said, no, no. And I sort of, you know, I covered up for him. I said, I think I'll leave that for you tonight.

And he looked me in the eye and said, yeah, I'm going to give an invitation. I've discovered it's easier to cool down a fanatic than warm up a corpse. OM attracts extremists. Probably 50 of you sitting in this room are potential extremists.

And one of our burdens in the process of breaking you and bending you and molding you, and we hope the Holy Spirit will do most of it, and seeing you come into balance, is that at the same time you'll not lose some of that godly extremism.

You know what I mean by that? Because you see, if there's nothing that's really moving, nothing that's on the attack, and therefore having with it perhaps some extreme aspects, then there's nothing to bring into balance.

It's like trying to put, you know, we always talk about the airplane illustration, and the wings and perfect balance. But of course, if there's only wings, no plane. Very hard to bring, you know, the plane into balance.

And if you're only wings, your great burden in life is to be balanced. There's no drive, there's no initiative, there's no... Forget it. You're not going anywhere. If any of you see two pair of wings going through the air, with nothing in between, I can tell you we have good psychiatric clinics here in Germany.

Faith, Healing, and Spiritual Discernment

One of the things that has helped me as I've studied extremists, is John Sung, a man highly revered. If you study him closely, he was of course extreme. Pak Singh, a dear, dear brother, who I know so well.

As you live with him, you study him, you study his movement. It's extreme, he's extreme. His view of Pentecostals would scare you right out of your shoes, a lot of you are Pentecostals. And he broke fellowship with OM.

Basically, he has fellowship with us individually, but his assemblies, especially his disciples like to go further than he does, really broke fellowship with OM and with the ship, because we fellowship too widely.

And I think it's been a beautiful thing that though our fellowship is broken with that movement to some degree, we have still maintained a very, very close relationship. And we've had him of course at our conferences.

God honors faith, honors faith. Very few men are balanced and to be a man of reckless faith. That's why today I am stronger on balance and weaker on faith. I heard just yesterday morning of how Pak Singh united together with his band of people and prayed for a woman hundreds of miles away who had cancer, they united in prayer, they phoned her up and they said, we believe you're healed.

She went back to the doctor and she has been healed of cancer. Some people don't like those illustrations, because they're super, super cautious about healing. And they've got this thing all neatly tied up that basically God doesn't do that today.

God has clinics and doctors and heart specialists who when they operate, you die, and other people. If we acknowledge history, if we acknowledge what God is doing, and of course the cop-out, the cop-out which frightens me out of my shoes, is to go way over into the corner and say, oh, this is of the devil.

I will tell you if there's any of you that narrow, I'd like to have a personal meeting with you. Because if you take men of God, the mighty works they have done, and you without research and without discernment say that's of the devil, I tell you, you're getting on dangerous ground.

Always be careful when you make pronouncements. That's all of the devil. That's what the church has so often done when it has become paranoid and sectarian and extreme. And I've known of cases where someone gave what they felt was a prophecy and a word from the Lord in a more charismatic type of meeting, and another person got right up in the meeting and said, that prophecy was of the devil.

Can you imagine sitting in a meeting like that? I mean, I would have thought that if the prophecy was of the devil, the brother who felt that way could have, you know, a little more quietly taken the other brother aside after the meeting and maybe shared in a loving way.

And of course that particular meeting, this one shouted back, no, you are of the devil! Shouting and yelling back and forth. You don't think that happens in the church? You haven't lived very long. You haven't read very much.

When God's people lose their cool, I'll tell you, clear out. When this weak feeble child of God loses his cool, clear out. Fortunately I'm surrounded by people who punch me in the nose. God works through humanity.

God doesn't say to this man, until you're driving a smaller car, living in a smaller home, having a simple lifestyle, understanding 16 major principles of A .W. Tozer, until you've read all of Andrew Murray and are walking in total spiritual balance, I will not hear your prayers.

Ridiculous. And here we are desiring to be mature, desiring to have spiritual balance, which is so important. And some little new convert comes along with all kinds of extremism, even some false doctrines.

And he said, raise up in the name of the Lord Jesus and you shall be healed. You go back now, let's see. Chapter 3 in the discipleship manual. Take the supernatural out of the New Testament church and you haven't got anything left.

Just a study book. Just a study book. And as someone, myself, naturally skeptical, very much wanting spiritual balance, frightened to death of extremes, I've had to acknowledge that there's a mystery here that I don't yet understand and I'm still studying hard.

But to me, one of the secrets is God honors faith. Have you ever tried to figure out how that woman in America who performed such great healings and recently died, what's her name? Catherine Coleman. I tell you, I have researched that subject.

Have seen books. Many, many Christians have been influenced by her books. Millions, my friends, who live in small closets. And yet some of the things I've researched, some of the things that came out in the press just before her death, you just couldn't believe it.

And yet the people that are walking today living proofs healed by that woman. There are some things where finally I just throw down the towel and say, Lord, when I get to heaven, I'll look for Catherine Coleman.