Oct 7, 2026 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Not All of Israel is Israel: How Misunderstanding & Ignoring This Biblical Truth Has Led to Heretical Theology & Dangerous Political Ideology”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh day of October 2026.

And as many of you know, today is the third anniversary of a bloody terrorist attack in southern Israel carried out by Hamas and several other Palestinian militant groups during a Jewish holiday. And this attack resulted in at least 1 ,200 deaths, and those deaths were predominantly civilians, including children, elderly, and foreign nationals, with 364 killed at the Nova Festival alone.

There were over 3 ,400 wounded, and there were 251 people taken hostage. They were abducted and taken into the Gaza Strip. And this was a gruesome and bloody terrorist attack, and that makes the date today a more sensitive date for us to be conducting an interview on the subject at hand.

It was actually not intended. We did not—my guest and I did not pick this date to discuss an issue regarding Israel, even realizing that this was the anniversary of that horrific terrorist attack. But the fact that my guest and I, Jerry Johnson, Christian documentarian and Reformed apologist, the fact that neither one of us believe that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, even though that is a fact that we do not regard the modern state as biblical Israel, that does not diminish the horror and the disgust that we have over the attack that took place.

We also realize that there are theories of the guilt of the Israeli government that may have permitted this attack to give them justification for military retaliation and so forth. I don't know whether those theories are true or not, and they do not diminish the horror of the gruesomeness of the attacks on those innocent civilians.

So I want you to keep in mind that we are not intentionally today trying to be cruel or insensitive, trying to dismiss the grief and mourning that many people, 1 ,200 families, are experiencing. And perhaps their grief is being renewed today because it is the anniversary date.

The Meaning of “Not All of Israel Is Israel”

But it is a theological issue that has great importance. My guest, as I've already mentioned, Jerry Johnson, who is a Christian documentarian most well-known for the popular DVD series Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, and his Reformed theological apologetic podcast Against the World, we are going to be specifically addressing Not All of Israel is Israel, how misunderstanding and ignoring this biblical truth has led to heretical theology and dangerous political ideology.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson. Thanks, Chris. I know that Monergism has provided a e-book of your paper on this subject. What was the compelling factor that led you to put down on paper your views of Israel?

And perhaps you could even summarize and spell them out for us before we go into greater depth.

All right, let me let me do this. My motivation was, of course, being true to the Word of God. Secondly, years ago, I was a director for Christian Coalition, and we're talking a long time ago, 35, 36 years ago, and we were passing out sample ballots during an election time.

And there was this guy, and he was a very pro-family, pro-conservative, pro-Bible, if you will. And so we're sitting there passing them out at this precinct, and this guy walks up to me, and we start talking, and he must have told me 10 times he was a Messianic Jew.

And of course, it had no effect on me. I appreciate that he believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, but I didn't care if he called himself a Messianic Jew, I didn't care if he called himself a Jew. And in the course of our conversation, another man walked up, so there were three men.

And the guy said again he was a Messianic Jew, and the third man, I thought I was going to fall down and start worshiping this guy. And I was like, this guy had blonde hair and blue eyes, and he was about as Semitic as my dog.

And I totally said something to him. And I said, you're claiming you're a physical descendant of Abraham? And I guess nobody had ever challenged him on that, and he looked shocked. And so that was one thing.

And then probably in 2008, 2009, Dr. Ken Gentry and I were at a conference down in Atlanta, and this lady who I had known only from Facebook, she had seen my profile, she had watched the Mason Grace documentary, she clicked a friend request, I probably had 15 seconds of exchange with her over time.

Her and her husband were at the conference, and they came walking up, and I recognized her. And we started talking, and somewhere in our conversation, Chris, she made a comment that made me think that she still held to the dispensational view of the church in Israel.

And I sat down, there were some tables in front of us, and I sat down with her and her husband, I opened up the scriptures, and probably within 30 minutes, I would say I explained to her why Christ and the apostles didn't take that position.

And she was totally convinced. He was totally convinced. And let me read a passage to you, because everything you said at the intro was correct. But I have a friend, Lee Carter, I think he was on your show before, he wrote me, and he said, anyone who believes that modern-day Israel are God's chosen people because of their supposed lineage with Abraham seems to believe in the divine rights of the Jews.

Thus they seem to reason that United Nations Israel can be excused for anything they do. And he was exactly right. Exactly right. And it is something that, I mean, you have to walk a fine line, because first off, you say modern Israel became a nation in 1948.

If I had been in the United Nations, I would have voted no. But you know what? It's ancient history. I can't do anything about it. And it bothers me that there are people out there that have all these conspiracy theories.

Let me tell you, one of the reasons I don't really worry about conspiracy theories is because very early in my Christian walk, there was a group of people that wanted to get me involved in them. And this other man in our church came up to me and said, read Psalm 2.

And I read it. And it says, why do the nations rage in the people plot of the same thing? The God who sits in heaven laughs in derision at their plans. God's plans are not going to be thwarted. Now, I say that because I'm not saying there aren't conspiracy theories out there.

But you and I will never know what it's like to have neighbors in front of us and behind us to look into the right of us that want to kill us and wipe us out. So that is one reason I tell people, be careful.

I don't know. They may do a lot of bad things to the Arabs. They may not. I don't know. But one thing I do know, I've had friends that were Palestinians before. One was a Palestinian. He was a member of the PLO.

And he was training with them. And he quit. And he came over to the United States. And his name, I'm not going to say his name. I'll say his first name. His first name was Hussein. And I asked him one time, and I mean, I was back in my 20s.

I wasn't even a Christian then. And it was early 20s. And I said, Hussein, why did you quit the PLO? And he said to me, I got tired of all the hate. Hmm. That was it. And then I had another guy. He was actually Southern Baptist, had his doctorate degree, taught at the University of Jerusalem, I believe, Dr. Anisha Roche.

And he said, you know what? I've never been treated like a second-class citizen. I've never been treated as an enemy. They treat me great. And he lived there in Jerusalem. He lived there early on. Then he came to the United States.

And he ended up teaching, I believe, at Southwestern Theological Seminary. But that was another example. But when all the dust of opinion settles, I don't care. Those people who are over in United Nations Israel today don't even have a claim to be physical descendants of Abraham.

I know people are going to jump on and say, wait a minute. Did they do a test and found out they all came? Are their DNA from a common ancestor? Everybody's does. I believe in Adam and Eve were our first parents.

So everybody's DNA is going to have a common ancestor. But when the dust of opinion settles, we need to look at what the Bible says is and is not Israel. And you take that passage where the book came from, Romans 9 .6.

Paul says, not all of Israel is Israel. No matter which way you slice it, there are two Israels there.

Yes, well, who is Israel, in your opinion, according to the Holy Scriptures, which Christians should be using the scriptures alone as their inerrant infallible authority over every major issue of life, especially when these issues are guiding important decisions.

The question of who is Israel and who Israel is not is an important issue, especially today when people are voting, according to their understanding of that. They are supporting military action, according to that, including politicians in the United States.

And they are evangelizing in different ways because of that issue. Some have even developed heretical teachings that Jews do not need to believe in Christ for salvation, that the promise of eternal life is theirs simply because they are part of the physical seed of Abraham.

And we can go on and on and on about that. All the important reasons we have to get this question right. But who is it? Go ahead. Let me do this.

The Church, Israel, and Dispensational Theology

The first thing I want to let people know is this was never an issue until about 1850. C .I. Schofield popularized it in 1906 with the publication of the Schofield Reference Bible. But if you go back pretty much through the 18th century, I mean, all the way up, but pretty much I give that halfway point 1850.

But if you go back in time, 1700s, 1600s, 1500s, 1400s, all the way down to the first century, nobody believed in a distinction between the church and Israel. Every single church father, scholastic scholar that I could find, reformer.

I mean, up until the middle part of the 19th century believed that the church was Israel. This has only been the common issue with the publication, like I said, of C .I. Schofield's publication. Let me read this to you.

That I think if I can find it, if not, I'll just ad lib it. I can't find it. I can't find it. So I believe when I became a young Christian, the whole idea of the distinction between the church and Israel, the rapture theology, that God has two planes of salvation, a plan A and a plan B, or now in part in plan B, the seven-year tribulation period, the appearance of Antichrist, the return of Christ at the start of the millennium, and a thousand-year golden Jewish age, where they reinstitute Old Testament sacrifices, and then there's going to be a rebellion against Christ and his authority at the end of the thousand years, and then he'll crush his enemies.

Now, I want you to understand, I do believe in the second coming of Christ. I do believe it will be physical and visible. I just do not believe it the way dispensationalists do, but I thought that was the way every Christian had read the Bible forever, especially the New Testament.

Imagine my shock when I found out that was not true, and I was shocked. I tell a story in here, and I had been a Christian for maybe two or three years. I had become friends with a pastor. I'm just going to say, I haven't seen him in 35 years, but he did not give me permission to use his last name, but his name was Bill, and we're driving down the road.

We're actually going to lunch, and Bill was a great guy, don't get me wrong, and we had another mutual friend pastor that was a millennial, right? And we were driving down the road, and the conversation came up about the meaning of the millennium, and he asked me if I was pre-millennial, and I said yes, because I thought everybody was, except I knew Dewey didn't hold to the same view, and I said that.

I said, well, Dewey says he's a millennial. Honestly, brother, at that young of an age, I didn't know what that meant, and Bill, without missing a beat, turned to me. He was driving. He turned to me, and he said, I didn't know Dewey was a liberal.

Well, Dewey wasn't a liberal. Dewey believed in the atonement. He believed the Bible was the word of God from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. He believed in a literal, actual, six-day creation. He believed in double imputation, and you name it.

Dewey believed everything, but he did believe different on eschatology, and Bill, eventually, I saw him about a year after that, and he had changed his view, and he had actually become a millennial, and, you know, but at that time, I thought it was, and I want to be clear, Bill wasn't being malicious.

He was just regurgitating what he had been taught, and that was the thing. If you did not hold to the dispensational eschatological scheme, then you are a liberal. That's what they said, and I want to give a lot of grace here, all right?

I tell people, back in the late 19th century, early 20th century, you had a lot of people, all right, let me say that again. I just messed that up. Early in the 20th and 18th century, my bad, you had a lot of German higher criticism and liberalism coming in the church, and C .I. Schofield comes along and Clarence Larkin, and they seemed to have some type of respect for the Bible, and a lot of people gravitated to them because of that, and on that point, they were correct, but unfortunately, we ended up interjecting the leaven into the body of Christ, where now we are worshiping United Nations Israel, and we believe that being obedient to them means being obedient to God.

It doesn't. At the end of 1 Corinthians 3, God talks about the church as the temple, and if any man destroys the temple or tries to, God's going to destroy them, for the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Not Israel, not the Jew, but the church.

And yes, I am agreeing with you. And well, the key issue that has sparked a lot of controversy in the political arena and in the media is that Christian Zionists, especially those who are elected officials or people who have been appointed to political positions of authority, have defended their reasons for being full-bore defenders of the modern state of Israel and wanting to involve the United States military in foreign conflicts that Israel desires for us to assist them with, even though this may eventually place American lives at great risk and so on.

Christian Zionism and the Promise to Abraham

The reason that the Christians in the political arena, primarily Republicans, they point to Genesis 12, 3, if they can even do that, because in the infamous debate that Tucker Carlson had with Ted Cruz, Ted didn't even know why he believed that that I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you, I will curse.

And actually, he inserted the word Jews, or Israel, I should say. I will bless Israel, I will bless all those who bless Israel, and I will curse all those who curse Israel. So, he was not remembering the quote from Genesis 12, 3, even though he was raised by a pastor, which was quite surprising, actually.

That text where God is promising Abram, before he became Abraham, I will bless you, I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you, I will curse. And in you all, the families of the earth will be blessed.

He was obviously God speaking of Abraham and his descendants. And one could rightly say that God was promising to bless the nation of Israel in the old covenant, in this promise, because Abraham is the father of the Jews.

So, the modern Christian Zionists are applying that to a modern manufactured nation, a nation that the founding of which was even opposed, strongly and vehemently opposed by many, if not most, Orthodox Jews, and especially Hasidic Jews, because they, according to their beliefs, could not expect the reestablishment of the true Israel of the Bible, of the Hebrew Scriptures, until their Messiah had come.

And they don't believe that their Messiah has come, and they recognize that this was an invention. And the fact that most of those in political authority, including Benjamin Netanyahu over in Israel, are atheists, as someone very interestingly put it, most Zionists don't believe in God, and yet they're certain God promised them the land in Palestine, which is quite an interesting and accurate observation.

You'll hear Netanyahu frequently in speeches, especially to American and Christian audiences, he'll be quoting the Bible and pulling at their heartstrings, because he knows that many, if not most, evangelicals in our day and age believe that Genesis 12 -3 is binding upon the consciences of Christians, followers of Christ, that they must bless and honor and follow and defend this modern state of Israel, even though it's atheist.

I don't mean every single individual there, but those in leadership and the majority of the population are godless. They're not even practicing the Judaism of the Old Covenant. They have one of the largest, if not the largest, homosexual activist communities, if you could call it a community, in the entire world.

They fervently believe in a so-called right of women to murder their unborn babies, and we could go on and on and on how these people are truly enemies of God. And if you want to pick up where I just left off there, isn't this quite absurd for Christians to be calling and viewing and identifying people such as this as the chosen people of God, and those who are recipients of the promise of God to Abram in Genesis 12 -3?

Yeah. Let me do this. I'm gonna read a quote from David Chilton. He did an exhaustive commentary on Revelation probably about 25 -30 years ago, and when I read this quote, I was like, that's it. And so, I want you to pay attention to it.

Give ear, if you will. He wrote, the apostate Jews, now this is the first century, he's quoting Revelation 3 -9, the apostate Jews are revealed in their true identity as the synagogue of Satan. Again, there is no such thing as orthodox Judaism.

There's no such thing as a genuine belief in the Old Testament that is consistent with the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and God. Those who do not believe in Christ do not believe in the Old Testament either.

When Christ's rejecting Jews claim to follow, I gotta go down the next page, in the footsteps of Abraham, Jesus says they lie. Now, that is Revelation 2 -9 and Revelation 3 -9. And I don't think a lot of people really, and really a lot of dispensationalists are considering that.

They believe that you can hold to a form of Judaism today, or even the Judaism that had developed in the first century. And John made it clear in his gospel, verse 12, chapter 1, not of blood, you're not of blood.

How fair does that have to be? Well, and, but many people, and it's what I call, I tell people, you gotta employ the Christo-apostolic hermeneutic. Who better to interpret the Old Testament than Christ and his apostles, the infallible interpreters of it?

And the minute you, you bring that up and you show somebody what Christ and the apostles believed, who was and who was not true Israel, true Jews, the issue goes away. They didn't. In fact, I talked to one guy.

He was, I guess, a European Jew. And, but he had come to Christ. He held to this position because he wanted to believe the Word of God. But he said, you know, it gets to the point when you read what Christ and the apostles said, specifically Christ in John chapter 8.

He said, that is the most anti-Semitic passage ever. If you do not, but Christ is telling them, Abraham's not your father. Your father is the devil. And that's why he later calls them the synagogue of Satan.

So I tell people, you gotta be careful because modern day Judaism, the Israelis, need Christ as much as the Irish, need Christ as much as the Mexicans, need Christ as much as the Americans. I don't care who you are.

Revelation 5, 9, God chose for himself a people out of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Distinguishing Criticism of Israel from Antisemitism

And I think it's important that we remind our listeners that we are never to make the mistake of the leftists who despise Israel and leap to the conclusion that they should defend and join in the rhetoric of Islamic terrorists and anti-Semites to bring upon the destruction and annihilation of Israelis.

We are not leftists. We do not we do not defend Islamic terrorism. We believe that Islam is a false religion. We believe that it is a dangerous religion. It is a Christ-hating religion, especially when you're referring to the true Christ of Scripture, not the manufactured invention that Islam categorizes Jesus to be just a prophet and not God.

And so therefore, we want to make sure that our listeners do not think that we are allies of the leftists, who you see many of the idiots out on street corners and on college campuses shouting the same kind of rhetoric that Islamic terrorists would chant.

And yet these morons who are often openly homosexual or so-called transgendered and so on, that they don't even seem to realize that their heads would be the first on the chopping block if Sharia law were to take over.

Yeah. I put a meme on my Facebook page the other day that had a guy with a shirt on that said transgender for Islam. And then next to him, there was a chicken that said chickens for KFC. Yes, I did see that myself.

And, you know, that paints it perfectly. But what we need to remember, yes, Islam is a false religion, but so is modern Judaism.

Yes. In fact, before I forget, I want to highly recommend a book that I have been rereading over the years and giving away to folks who may be confused on this issue. A book written by a Christian Israeli, an Israeli Reform Baptist named Baruch Moshe.

I believe he's currently living in the United States. He was pastoring in Tel Aviv for many years. He wrote a book called Judaism is Not Jewish. And you could go to Amazon and look that up. You could spell his name B-A-R-U-C-H.

His last name is M as in Michael, A-O-Z. Judaism is Not Jewish, A Friendly Critique of the Messianic Movement. And unfortunately, a more modern version or a more recent version, I should say, of that book has a new title, which totally took the wind out of the sails of the intent, I think.

Come Let Us Reason Together is the new title. Unfortunate choice of the new publisher of this book. It doesn't reveal much of anything about the intent of the book. I also want to remind our listeners and recommend to our listeners that you go to the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio website, ironsherpinsironradio .com, and type in the search engine Moorcraft, M-O-R-C, I'm sorry, M-O-R-E-C-R-A-F-T, and look for the interview that I conducted with Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III.

And we were responding to the aforementioned debate that Tucker Carlson had with Ted Cruz. We were actually siding on this one issue with Tucker Carlson. I'm not saying that we would agree with everything Tucker Carlson believes and says.

I don't know if Tucker is a regenerate believer. He claims to be a Christian. I don't know really where he stands, but just look up that there are many interviews listed there with Joe Moorcraft, but this is the June 20, 2005 interview.

And another excellent interview you can look up that involves the subject at hand is my interview with Jim Harrison, pastor of Red Mill Baptist Church in Red Mills, New York, on the controversy over the church being the fulfillment of Israel.

That was on May 27, 2026. Just type in the search engine Harrison, H-A-R-R-I-S-O-N, and you will find that interview come up. But we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you have a question for my guest today, Jerry Johnson, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. And don't forget that our advertisers keep this program on the air. Please never forget that.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back, and before I return to my guest, Jerry Johnson, I wanted to give you all the exciting news that this Friday, my friend Dr. Tony Costa, a world-renowned Reformed Baptist apologist who specializes in Islamic studies, he is returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and he is going to be discussing the loud and leftist Islamist women of USA politics.

Would they survive Sharia law, and is their rhetoric and behavior compatible with authentic Islam? That's this Friday here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And also, I just received today the exciting news, the absolutely magnificent news, that Pouyan Marshahi, an Iranian-born former Zoroastrian who converted to Christ by his grace and mercy, and now pastors a Reformed Baptist church in England, he is going to be my next Iron Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon Speaker in 2027 on Thursday, May 6th, 2027 in South Central Pennsylvania, and we will be giving you more details in the following months and so on.

So, please grab your 2027 calendar and mark that down, because we're so excited about Pouyan coming out here to the United States and blessing me as my keynote speaker. But we are now back with Jerry Johnson, and we have been discussing a very important and a very timely issue, an issue that divides even the body of Christ.

Romans 9 and the Identity of Abraham’s Children

And the theme of our show today is, Not All of Israel is Israel—How Misunderstanding and Ignoring This Biblical Truth Led to Heretical Theology and Dangerous Political Ideology. And I'd like to read, first of all, I believe you may have briefly cited some of these passages or verses, but in Romans 9, Calvinist's favorite chapter in the Bible, but if we start at verse 6, let's see here, Romans 9, 6, 7, 8, 9.

For they are not all Israel, who are descended from Israel, nor are they all children, because they are Abraham's descendants. But through Isaac your descendants shall be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

And isn't this one verse alone a clear warning that no one is to have peace and even a feeling of superiority in some way, that they are God's chosen, and they are the people that require the honor and love and protection of Christians merely because they believe they are the ethnic and physical descendants of Abraham?

Isn't this a warning against that whole concept?

Well, I believe it is. You know, let me tell you…. How could you view it any other way? Yeah. Let me hold a passage to you from Galatians 3 and tell you a story. Galatians 3 says, For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ, and in Christ you are Abraham's seed according to the promise. And when I was in seminary, my professor of New Testament was a guy named Thaler White, right?

I could probably say because he is a professor of New Testament. And Thaler got his PhD from Dallas Seminary. Now, he had rejected the dispensational view and had become reformed. And I said to him, really fast, that he would read a chapter, and then he would point out the points he wanted us to get.

Then we would discuss it and debate it, and that usually took up the whole class. And Dr. White read that passage, and I raised my hand, and I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck. I just said, Dr. White, how could you, as a dispensationalist, read that passage and come away with your view of the separation of the church and Israel?