The Coming Conclave, then How Cults Get Members (Upcoming Debate)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:29

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. It is a Tuesday, I think, and we just it's sort of it's sort of the last part of any trip season that I have is we just dropped the

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RV off at the repair facility. The dealership, you know, repair thing is always something.

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They even showed us, look, they look, I this is Richard's fault. He had the conversation.

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I didn't know about this. But they now have solar awnings. Which is really, really interesting, especially here in Arizona, where solar really works during the summer.

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But the thing that's most interesting about it is that it has a wind detection device.

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And when the wind gets up to a certain speed, it automatically pulls it in. And I haven't looked yet.

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I wonder if they have that just for regular awnings. I don't know. That would be exceptionally useful.

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I had to go driving all the way up to the RV park in North Phoenix a couple weeks ago when

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I was at the Easter pageant because storm blew in that we didn't expect. And I had to go all the way up there and pull the awnings in unless they end up.

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Anyway, it's just part of the RV life. And some of you are going, why are you talking about this? Because that's what we do at the beginning of the program.

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We're not pretentious. We don't have special, you know, little sound things and stuff like that.

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It's just the way things is. So the RV is parked for two months, a little over two months, and then it's going to be on the road for a long, long time.

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I think my wife is going to be really upset with how long I'm going to be gone, because from July into August and then

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September, wow, I'm going to be in Tennessee, going to be in Georgia for G3 and then up to Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's pastors luncheon.

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And that's a lot of driving. And yeah, we're going to be gone for a long time for that one, too.

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So, yeah, just making sure that everything's working right for that last big push.

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Didn't think we're going to be doing anything in 2025. Speaking of 2025, May 7th of 2025.

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Is next Wednesday, and that is the rumored or at least I think somewhat announced beginning of the conclave in Sistine Chapel for the election of Pope Francis's successor.

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And you might be saying, I thought you'd be talking about another subject, we'll get to it. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about it.

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I can't looking at my at my online feed on X, forget about it. But this is historic.

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And we'll have a huge impact on a lot of things. There are there's all sorts of discussion as to who the front runners are, as I get that stuff rarely has a whole lot of real impact on things.

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We don't know just how. Effective Francis's attempted stacking of the

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College of Cardinals has been. And there's all sorts of stuff in the background,

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I mean. I can't imagine all the political intrigue and because we know we know in centuries past, wow, the papers who was bought and sold like, you know, whoever the biggest bidder was, that's that's who who got the papacy.

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Because it was a huge source of income. A lot of the rumors are that the Vatican is pretty much bankrupt, which, you know, given the

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United States being even bankrupt, or may not really mean much, but the real issue is where, you know, what's the will the direction keep going, the direction it's going now?

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Or will there be a course correction? And look, no matter and some people are going to go, see,

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I told you it doesn't matter. It sort of doesn't really matter which direction it goes.

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And you go, what do you mean? Let's say. That a

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Francis like. Perspective is there's an American guy that I guess is very much like Francis.

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Let's say he's he's elected and the trajectory keeps going off to the left.

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OK, that means that Francis is. Fundamental.

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I don't want to use the term disrespect, but rejection, abandonment, ignoring of something along those lines.

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What was once called apostolic tradition will continue. And let's say if there's let's say there's a correction.

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Let's say someone is elected. I'm not sure how this would work or how it could even happen.

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But let's say someone was elected who. Is going to shift things back to the right, and some people say, see, see, you know, we had a bad pope, but even though you couldn't, you couldn't hear almost anybody saying that just just a, you know, a couple of days ago when we discovered that every person on Fox News that calls themselves a

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Christian is actually Roman Catholic and accepts anything that the Roman Catholic Church says about itself, about being the 2000 year church.

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And I mean, it's just repeated over and over and over and over again. Anyway. Let's say there is a course correction back.

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What does that tell you? Well, that tells you that the Lord is in charge of his church. And once again.

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The big issue that you need to be thinking about. Is what is apostolic tradition?

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Because that's it doesn't matter what you talk about. Eventually, it's going to come down to an authority claim. Rome's going to deny sola scriptura and say you need to have the church.

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Da da da da da. But who gets to determine what the church is going to be teaching?

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Well, it's apostolic tradition. See, our tendency, my tendency for a long time has been to hear that as if it is a claim.

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That there is an actual body of divine truth.

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That is traceable back to the apostles. Newman demonstrated that that wasn't the case.

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You know, the development hypothesis. And Roman Catholic apologists will try to claim that that's what apostolic tradition is.

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So, Jerry Matitix, you know, is going, you know, 2 Thessalonians 2 .15. Hold the traditions where you're taught, whether by word of mouth, by letter from us.

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And so, you know, Protestants do fine with the letter from us, but you're not doing the word of mouth thing.

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And that's why you're not really obeying it and all the rest of that kind of stuff. Well, the only way you could quote 2

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Thessalonians 2 .15 and say, hey, this is, this came from the apostles, is if you're actually claiming that the substance of apostolic tradition does have an objective, historical, real connection to the apostles.

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The apostles taught this stuff. And it's clear that there are Roman Catholics who do believe that and make that claim.

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But it's also clear that that completely destroys immaculate conception, bodily assumption, because everybody knows those didn't come from the apostles.

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You just, you have to utterly destroy any historical credibility to your claims to say that that came from the apostles.

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It didn't. So, which is it going to be? Well, evidently

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Rome's happy to get along with a mixture. We'll go ahead and when it's useful, we will pretend that there is an objective, historical core to apostolic tradition, upon which we have based so much of our teaching, all the

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Marian stuff, all that kind of stuff. And then, when it's convenient, especially in talking to our own scholars, we'll use apostolic tradition as what the church comes to understand upon reflection.

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And that sounds great. It just sounds so spiritual. What the church comes to understand upon reflection.

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Which means you don't have to worry about any type of historical core, any type of historical objective reality to what's called apostolic tradition.

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So, when you hear a Roman Catholic using that term, or Eastern Orthodox using that term, though there will be some differences, your ears should perk up and you should go, what do you mean by that?

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Are you saying that we can trace this belief back to the apostles? As soon as you say that, you're going to find out real fast how much of Newman they've actually read.

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You know, because Newman admitted there's all sorts of stuff that is a development over time. It's like the acorn grows into the great tree.

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Which means that you don't see a great tree there for hundreds and hundreds of years before the acorn starts to grow.

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That's the thing to be thinking about starting next week. I really wonder how long this one's going to go.

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How much suspense there's going to be. You know, last time

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I think the last two times there's a chimney that comes out of the

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Sistine Chapel and they will Oh, a friend just texted me and was mentioning my shirt.

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Yeah, well, why don't you have a cowboy shirt? So, you're saying you don't love cowboy as much as I love mine.

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I'm sorry about that. I need to get you one. If someone got you one, would you wear it? If your wife got you one, would you wear it?

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Your wife would never get you one? Oh, I'm sorry. I can tell you really want one. I'll see what

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I can do about that. Anyway, they had a camera focused on this chimney the

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Sistine Chapel. White smoke, black smoke. So, when they take a vote and they don't get somebody they finally have a vote and they change the color we have a pope and blah blah blah.

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All of which they're going to say this has been going on for 2 ,000 years. No it didn't. That's not how it was done.

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This is development over time. But everybody showing up on Fox News doesn't care about what history actually says about stuff like that.

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They'll do what they want to do. The point is if there is a course correction then what that proves is that Francis was an aberration at least from his predecessor and that couldn't be based upon apostolic tradition.

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If we keep going the same direction then into uncharted beliefs then again apostolic tradition has nothing to do with it.

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So this is the problem in having this kind of a man -centered ultimate authority system.

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You don't have something that is objectively true at all times. There are so many times, you can look back in church history when we've said this over and over again how could you have known that Honorius was wrong for 40 or 50 years?

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You couldn't. It wasn't possible. If you invest in the papacy its own self -proclaimed authority your system becomes incoherent.

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If it starts doing what we're doing in the United States let's just admit it my big concern is that what we're going to be seeing for the rest of our lives in the

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United States is either crippling deadlock which could happen you know in 18 months at the midterms where the legislature becomes worthless.

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It's already pretty much worthless it is almost nothing gets passed anymore there is no bipartisanship it's you know

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I quoted what Gia said was it Luke 11? A house divided against itself cannot stand.

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And there are at least two radically different nations inside the borders of this country at least at the moment we sort of know what the borders are we didn't know that was for four years under the

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Biden regime of course Biden didn't know what the border was for four years under the Biden regime that's now being admitted by everybody.

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Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? The people who worked and were used as pawns to cover over what was obvious to all of us and I remember in 2019

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I said on this program there is no way Biden can run for president the guy is senile that was in 2019 and I was right and everybody else said it was right you're racist you're just a

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Trump supporter blah blah blah we were right and I think what's the name for Elon Musk's robots again?

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Doge? No the robots that he's making Prometheus or something I don't know you have not paid any attention that's going to be the first crew they send to Mars will be a robot man mission and they're going to be doing it fairly soon these have much more capacity can you imagine one of those things walking around the surface of Mars waving at the camera doing that thing seriously that's but it almost seems to me that one of those things could be run for president and as long as the media has been paid off they'll sit there and go this could be the best thing ever he's going to know exactly what his programming is amazing stuff coming danger

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Will Robinson I remember no I'm not talking about Mars I'm talking about running one for president anyway how did we get there we got there basically because I jumped track from thinking about the reality that the authority claims of Roman Catholicism are very frequently demonstrated to be fragile or very malleable at times like this where you have the election of a new pope and it's going to be very interesting to see what happens from that but again my encouragement to everyone is as over the next few weeks we have opportunity you may have opportunity to talk to friends neighbors relatives that you would not ever have otherwise and take advantage of it be prepared now that's what's coming up and I know someone else who needs a kiddie shirt too

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I just realized someone who lives in Oklahoma needs a kiddie shirt and I'll have to work with someone's wife to arrange a kiddie shirt that's what

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I should do for Christmas this year all my friends with kiddies I'll get them kiddie shirts and they will sit in the back of the closet because no one would really throw it out

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I mean they don't want to be mean but if they needed to drag it out and say see

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I've still got it put it back that would be sort of fun anyway let me let me talk to you about how cults get converts okay you go what hang with me remember and I didn't talk about this because we've talked about it so many times before that it was just sort of like I don't really want to go back over this again but before Easter we had that wackadoodle article on Christianity Today remember everybody was up in arms about it evangelical scholar says that Jesus may not have been nailed to the cross they don't talk about nails probably was tied to the cross and stuff like that and you look up the article and you look up the guy that wrote it and he's got pronouns in his bio and LGBTQ stuff and it's just an automatic yeah so dime a dozen and I keep trying to tell you if you believe in scripture and you believe that it is inspired and you believe that it's consistent in other words if you hold a historic view of scripture at least before the last couple hundred years if you hold

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Jesus' view of scripture then you're going to be in the minority and academia as a whole how do you define that?

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include Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy what do you call academia? if you include

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PCUSA and ELCA Episcopalians and stuff like that they're going to outnumber

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Bible believers by a long shot that's just reality so when

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I saw it I was like there must be some discussion of Thomas' unless I see the print of the nails in his hands and my guess was if someone's going this direction they're probably going to say yeah well

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John was late and so in other words they're going to throw shade on the accuracy of Thomas' words in John which is exactly what it was and again when you read

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Modern New Testament Scholarship I guess someone might say well that would always make me upset well then you're always going to be upset reading

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Modern New Testament Scholarship you're eventually going to be chugging my Atlanta every other page it's just sort of like yeah that's what they say all the time and no we don't believe that and yeah we've talked about why we don't believe that over and over and over again and we've dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses on this subject for decades because if you're not aware of this

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Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was nailed to a torture stake so his hands would be put up above his head one nail through two hands and there's no cross beam so we've talked about that and that's why

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I didn't want to really invest a whole lot in it a couple weeks ago when that was the big thing and all the rest of that stuff and some people seem to wonder why

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I didn't comment on it because I've commented on it for years it was just a slightly different form but all that back to how do cults get members and I want to use that as an example when

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Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door and they find that you are part of a church but you don't really put up much of a fight you don't show real any commitment to the doctrinal distinctives of your church or maybe they can tell they can sense about what you say you don't really know much about what you believe um what they're going to do is they're going to try to purchase some credibility how do you purchase credibility well one of the things that they do is they raise the issue we were just talking about they will say do you have a cross in your church and most people will go well yeah well we don't have one at our kingdom hall and here's the reason and then they'll give you this calm collected interesting documented discussion about how

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Jesus was actually nailed to a torture stick and what they're trying to do is they're trying to create some separation between yourself and your church and saying you know your church hasn't either been honest with you or maybe your church is just ignorant of things we know and so they want you to start looking at your church from a distance now that's necessary if you're going to get converts and it's necessary in reverse one of the things you have to try to do as you speak to a

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Jehovah's Witness is try to get them to start looking at the Watchtower Society from some perspective other than it's them as long as they think they are the

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Watchtower Society then every criticism of the Watchtower Society is going to be a criticism of them and so the emotional temperature keeps going up and they're going to be willing to ignore things you say and stuff like that so in any witnessing situation you do want someone to have some distance to be able to look at claims with at least some level of accuracy but what they're doing is they're bringing stuff up that you've never heard of before and it's probably never been preached on in your church because the same reason

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I mean it's sort of idiosyncratic it's not what you'd be running into if someone was preaching through the

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Bible with regularity preaching verse by verse you're not going to run into this kind of stuff but that's what they'll do they'll use certain pet issues they come to your door they may have a

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Watchtower magazine, an Awake magazine there might be an article about climate change or something like that they want to give that to you they're sort of using that as a way to get a foot in the door and start making you question the authority of the structures you're already committed to and why are you committed to them and are you really committed to them now that's interesting in and of itself hopefully it's helpful if you're a pastor and you have a church member

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I've told the story before when a lady who was a member of a Bible study class at the large mega

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Southern Baptist church that I went to many years ago many many years ago wasn't a member of the church she was a member of the

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Sunday school class that's what the Jehovah's Witnesses did with them and it was a nuclear war when the

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Jehovah's Witnesses showed up and I've said the guy's name was

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Mike I've told people if I had not been in my second year of Greek when that encounter took place she would have become a

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Jehovah's Witness the guy was good very very well prepared years ago

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I'm not sure if it's the same now but years ago the average Jehovah's Witness spent 5 hours a week preparing to deal with you and most of us don't spend 5 seconds a week preparing to deal with them that may have changed especially during Covid but they're going door to door again they have been for a while now they're back out there but anyway they're ready to engage these things and they will get your interest in a subject they'll give you authoritative statements that aren't necessarily true but they'll give you a lot of bible and they will use a lot of Christian language and that's how they grab hold of you and get your interest most of you know that Sunday evening it snuck out

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I think it was because the YouTube link had been created and somehow someone saw it and posted it on Twitter and boom we were going to do it on Monday but Sunday night it was announced that on May 15th

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Thursday night May 15th I will be doing an online debate it will be a debate it will not be a discussion it will be moderated opening statements rebuttals, cross -examination closing statements hopefully a brief number of audience questions because in my experience and I have a lot of experience in this particular subject audience questions muddy the waters they don't help they do not clarify and sometimes they do

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I'd say maybe 15 % of the time the audience questions actually help a debate and about 85 % of the time they're either neutral I'd say 15 % they help 15 % they're neutral and the other 70 % they actually detract from the debate because they drag you off into what the audience wanted to hear argued not necessarily what the actual thesis of the debate was that's what ends up happening so I'll be sitting right here and my hope and prayer is that the internet will behave and we won't have any issues along those lines

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I mean things happen but I mean normally we get through a program without any problems not that late in the day so we'll see but yeah

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May 15th so two weeks from this coming

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Thursday will be this debate now why? first of all the thesis topic has utterly stunned everybody when

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I announced this and I told everybody ok we can't mention anything about this till tomorrow and then it came out that night so it didn't really matter but when

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I announced this thesis statement an apology to church there was a gasp a complete gasp on the part of everybody in the room and the vast majority of Christians when they hear this gasp in shock that anyone would believe the opposite of what

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I'm going to be arguing here is the thesis is the Holy Spirit able to sanctify black people as much as white people now

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I think it is the perfect thesis for exposing what the stone choir is all about and but at the same time if you respond like most

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Christians do to someone who would say well the Holy Spirit can't sanctify a black person as much as a white person you're going to go why and this is what you need to understand just like Jehovah's Witnesses the stone choir is a cult and when you encounter the claims of a cult most of the time you haven't heard this stuff before you haven't dealt with it before you might have a visceral response most people will have a visceral response to this thesis statement it's like what?

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that's absurd ok it is and I'll be honest with you there's only 15 minute opening statements and 15 minute rebuttals

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I'm not sure that Corey Mahler will have the time to develop a meaningful defense of his statement of his position but the fact is just as Jehovah's Witnesses have their arguments to defend the idea that Jesus is

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Michael the Archangel and 144 ,000 and Jesus well

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Jesus was Michael the Archangel and then became Jesus and now he's Michael the Archangel again and 144 ,000 in heaven but the great crowd living on earth and blah blah blah all this kind of stuff they have arguments to back all that up and you sitting there going that's dumb it's not a debate tactic that ain't gonna work and when you encounter their best apologists they will make you look bad most people have never heard a stone choir and I'm going to be talking about some of the objections to this debate in a few minutes most people have never listened to their presentations if you watched the

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Chris Rosebaugh dialogue with Mahler or the one on Bible Dingers which is the same

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YouTube channel we're going to be doing this on they contacted me they said we think Samuel did a great job but we also think that since Mahler is an attorney that there needs to be a debate an actual debate with someone with debate experience and there are only a few of us to be honest with you who have debate experience so there are people with more debate experience than I have online because I prefer in person debates and I wouldn't mind doing this in person but the way

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I travel these days that wouldn't be able to happen until 2026 because my schedule for the rest of this year is very heavy travel wise so anyway most people do not know who

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Cory Mahler is who Dumpworth is his co -host and so they don't know what's behind this so they assume and there are

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Stone Choir has been cranking out webcasts for quite some time now and you can go listen to these things and I can tell you and I may before the 15th

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I haven't decided yet I may just do a program where I go here's what they're going to say here's what

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I'm going to say because there really isn't any other direction to go they are going to fundamentally the argumentation currently being presented as if they came up with this stuff on their own which they didn't is the same argumentation based upon the curse of Ham which is actually the curse of Canaan the sons of Noah Hamshem and Japheth and Japheth is the father of the

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European people and they are blessed and whites are to lead the church and blacks are to be in subservience to whites and this is just simply a fulfillment of God's prophecy and God's purpose in the curse on the

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Hamites and that's the reason that the

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Holy Spirit cannot sanctify a black person as much as a white person is because of the way

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God has designed the world to be you just have to allow that to be and they're going to talk about genetics and population statistics and IQs and all the rest of this stuff it's all on their website this is the stuff they talk about they say we're just being biblical

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Christians you've never heard of this before and what about this study where they did x -rays chest x -rays and the computer was able to tell who was a white person and a black person or an

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Asian person 99 percentile accuracy it's all because of genetics which they identify as the real meaning of race and so we're not saying that the

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Holy Spirit is incapable of doing something we're just simply saying that the Holy Spirit will only do what the triune

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God has decreed to do and all of it is based upon their interpretation of Genesis 9 and 10 and the vast majority of New Testament Christians are going to go

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Genesis 9 and 10 what? because you're not going to find what was in Genesis 9 and 10 that I missed yeah where's

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Genesis didn't that blow up and take con with it whatever sorry only the geeks in the audience got that one that was a great movie but anyway here comes the plane

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I'm sorry alright we totally lost it thanks a lot Rich I really appreciate that I was doing real well there until you just knocked me right off the tracks with that one so the fact is the argumentation from Genesis 9 and 10 the sons of Noah and the curse on Canaan not

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Ham but on Canaan it's the essence of their argumentation and so what they do is they combine with this weird interpretation you can't find anywhere in the

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Bible itself the prophets and apostles where in the world

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I'm reading Romans right now I don't see any of this I don't see Ham, Shem, and Japheth being referenced anywhere there's all this stuff about one body of Christ and one

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Holy Spirit and one imputed righteousness and one renewal and everyone being conformed there's all this stuff but you see they have a lens that they have created and they didn't create it themselves if you're sitting down as a

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Southern Baptist be sitting down because this is pretty much the same argumentation that the fourth president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention presented in 1844 Dr. Mel same stuff and it's the same stuff that was picked up by the

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KKK after the war as the biblical foundation of how they were treating black people you see

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Canaan is to serve his brothers serve the others and if you make if you ignore the fact that's

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Canaan and that is fulfilled in the people of Israel going into and taking the land which is how the vast majority of people interpret it, you ignore all that stuff and expand the curse out to Ham and make the

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Hamites the Africans only them then the

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Africans are to serve the descendants of the other brothers who are the sons of Noah now

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I just invite you I'm not going to go into this right now because I don't want to get into too much of what we're going to get into in the debate find out where that interpretation started just look

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I know where it started in fact I have an entire set of commentaries sitting on my desk in the other room and they've been there for years that actually gives you the origination of that interpretation you ain't going to find it unless you do some digging

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I'll just tell you that but there's nothing new here and when you read for example on November 11th of 2024 and again just be aware of something what

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Cory Mahler will say in our debate is not what you see Cory Mahler saying online that's one of the things that has caused those difficulties in the preceding dialogues that have taken place is that he does the

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Motten Bailey thing he'll throw out this wild stuff and then when you press him he's very calm and collected and he runs back to this stuff that you've never studied before what about Ham, Shem, and Japheth walking backwards curses

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Cain and what are we talking about here so they throw the stuff out for clicks and then draw people in this way so on November 11th of 2024

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Cory Mahler said blacks will always be black first and Christian a distant second at best blacks will always be black first and Christian a distant second at best so why might this be well because race is real and so what they'll do is they will talk about genetics and they'll talk about DNA and I've been listening to stuff

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I don't want to be listening to stuff on starting May 16th

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I'm not going to listen to any more of this stuff I took time off when

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I had to read sitting here this is the actual book

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I read and you can tell by all the yellow marking when I had to read

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The Glories of Mary by Alphonsus de Liguri this is spiritually oppressive it is to any person that understands the

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Bible and it's teaching this is spiritually oppressive and when

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I when I got done writing that book I didn't touch that for quite some time you need time off you need to take a spiritual shower and the same thing writing the same sex controversy once that was done oh, could

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I have a couple years before I have to even think about this stuff again same thing here the racism the denigration of our brothers and sisters in Christ who aren't white the exaltation of brothers and sisters in Christ who are white as if that's somehow an advantage to the

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Holy Spirit this kind of stuff is oppressive and so I'm starting

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May 16th I'm probably going to let's let's leave that stuff alone for a while because it's just, it's oppressive it's but at the same time the thesis allows us to focus upon the gospel as the key issue here because they use gospel language all the time they claim to be

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Christians Corey Mahler is an excommunicate LCMS and I guess

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I might as well go ahead and say this now there have been a number of people who say you should not debate him because he's excommunicated okay if I was having fellowship with him if I was calling him brother if I was engaging with him as if he is a fellow believer in Christ okay if I've invited him to a conference to present his perspective okay none of that's the case we're doing a debate and so I have utilized an illustration that may not speak to everybody because they don't know

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Mormon history but there is a book published in 1834 by E .D.

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Howe called Mormonism Unveiled it was the first anti -Mormon book it was the first book produced by a

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Christian seeking to expose now Mormonism had not developed the vast majority of its most egregiously heretical doctrines in 1834 but it was a new movement did claim to have a new revelation from God had the 1833

46:33

Book of Commandments which became in 1835 the Doctrine and Covenants so what if the vast majority

46:46

I thought that's what you were going to get oh yeah

46:56

I think you did do it that's my signature and my little thingy there there you go but did you notice the date 1834 um so here's how almost 300 pages long

47:15

I mean I could not write a book against Mormonism and stop in 1834 and come up with 300 pages that's

47:23

I mean like I said the vast majority of the really bad stuff hadn't come out yet what if most ministers had no idea what this

47:32

Mormonism stuff was the polygamy stuff wasn't going down yet once that started happening it was really easy to get people angry at Mormons steal your wives okay well there you go um the ministers struggled because of ignorance and it was a fully understandable ignorance who would know what these people are teaching what if E .D.

48:02

Howell had been able to debate Joseph Smith in 1835 the year after this came out he'd have standing 300 page book opposed to Mormonism um and the

48:18

Mormons did debates back then in fact they sought them out Mormon apostles missionaries that were sent out they were encouraged to arrange debates because who knew anything about Mormonism you had the big advantage what if E .D.

48:34

Howell had gotten Joseph Smith to debate and had shredded him it might have stopped what became

48:41

Mormonism now I'm only talking I'm not talking about God's sovereign decree I'm talking about from a human perspective might have had a real positive impact so people who are saying well he's excommunicated so you shouldn't have anything to do with him anything to do with him as in fellowship in the

49:02

Christian faith you're exactly right anything to do with him as in refuting his falsehoods as in exposing blacks will always be black first and Christian a distant second at best you think we're supposed to just ignore that because he's excommunicated?

49:18

No you expose the unfruitful works of darkness and that's what we're doing so there's nothing in exposing these things when

49:30

Paul wrote to the churches in Galatia everybody knew who he was talking about and he said they were false brethren who had snuck in and that's what a lot of you don't understand is that through this mechanism right here the stone choir cult is fulfilling

49:57

Galatians 2 .4 in Galatians 2 .4 Paul speaks of the pseudo delphoi the false brethren who had snuck in to spy out our freedom which are in Christ they snuck in they looked like us they talked like us they used the language like us and if you listen to the stone choir we believe in a young earth we believe in the bible we're defending the faith they use all the right language just like the

50:29

Judaizers ok so they're sneaking in and I've been trying to tell a few people since Sunday night who are like ah it's just a waste of time you ought to be debating

50:43

Stephen Wolf grief man does he have fans I'd like to see a

50:50

Stephen Wolf debate personally I'll be honest

50:56

I've had a lot of people just last week someone said that they had a friend went and heard him speak and they were like that was really not impressive didn't really make much sense and really couldn't follow any of it and he doesn't interact with people well so I'm like well whatever what do you want to debate how about we debate apologetic methodology presuppositionalism

51:22

I'll be glad to defend it Jeff Durbin's like you want to debate theonomy I'll debate theonomy we'll do that yeah you bet what are we supposed to debate we can't debate sacralism because I admit the reformers were sacralists yeah so that means

51:39

I'm the true reformer well I'm not so sure about that because I don't think political theory is what defined the reformation so all these people running around you need to debate

51:47

Stephen Wolf look I think Stephen Wolf's perspectives are dangerous they're causing division all the rest of that stuff but Stephen Wolf isn't

51:58

Cory Muller by a long shot so your priorities

52:05

I just kept going do any of you pastor a church have any of you actually had to deal with your young people your young men especially getting drawn into this stuff vast majority of the people are saying

52:18

I shouldn't be debating this you've never listened to a single podcast they are like the

52:25

Jehovah's Witnesses in fact listening to them I couldn't help but thinking about general conference the

52:34

Mormon church because they're not exciting to listen to they're rather and yet there are little shots of authority claims and what they do is they use the right language use the right lingo keep a good cover of that on it and then you raise issues that people normally don't dig into like phenotype and alleles and stuff in genetics and population genetics how mutations function over generations stuff that I was department fellow in anatomy and physiology

53:24

I raised 35 ,000 Drosophila Malanogaster fruit flies my senior year of college so I'm familiar with that type of language and studied all that stuff in college but most people haven't and so they're talking about this stuff and then they make these connections and they tie stuff together that may have some connection but may not but who is to judge and if you're a young man feeling like well on Friday afternoon at ReformCon and thanks everybody that was there it was great meeting everybody great seeing folks that we haven't seen for a long time we had the

54:11

Boomer Vest Dialogues you didn't know about that huh it was Andrew Sandlin, Doug Wilson and me so we were the

54:20

Boomer Vest Dialogues and Virgil asked us questions we were booming and and one of the things that I said was look patience we as older men have to communicate to younger men the things they should be cultivating in their lives and one of the most important Christian traits contentment, long suffering patience that's not what they want to hear when someone comes along with instant gratification rather than coming along with patience there's someone walking around behind my truck that's why

55:19

I'm looking over like this anyway we have cameras again finally we didn't have them for about 4 months it drove me crazy but no it's the homeschool folks and they're just bringing in 47 ,000 used homeschool books we see it all the time,

55:36

I think it's great I think it's awesome I'm glad we can still do it for now when that pendulum swings the other direction watch that it's going to be one of the first things they're going to go after anyway we have to counsel according to the word of God and the spirit of God and that is that young men should seek to serve patiently endure patiently create godliness find that right woman build that family that doesn't sell okay the

56:20

Christian Nationalists let's take over by force right now stuff that sells and the we need to kick everybody out of the country that doesn't look like us, smell like us and speak like us sells it's not how the early church functioned it's not what the new testament teaches it's not what the apostles believed but it sells and that's what we're up against and when you encounter people as a pastor if you all of a sudden discover that your young men are listening to stuff and they they won't have fellowship with black people in your congregation because they don't believe that they can be as sanctified as they are you're going to sit there wondering where did

57:11

I go wrong and it's not so much that you went wrong it's just that maybe you weren't taking advantage of some sources of information that some of us tried to offer to you so just as I've said many times never underestimate

57:27

Jehovah's Witnesses they spend much more time preparing to deal with you than vice versa so don't underestimate them they're going to have arguments for stuff that sounds to us like what do you mean

57:39

Jesus is Michael the Archangel do you know how they argue that? I know how they argue that if you don't don't mock it until you know how to respond to it in the same way what do you mean the

57:51

Holy Spirit can't can't sanctify a black person the way a white person well it's because the

57:57

Holy Spirit is going to operate in accordance with how God has designed man and how

58:05

God set the boundaries of the nations after the flood through the sons of Noah and since race is a real thing then it results in differences in IQ ability to to build nations and cultures some people are made the servants of others and if you're not ready to respond to that what are you going to do?

58:39

what are you going to do? that's that's a good question so the thesis it's gone oh well

58:55

I hope you can see things um basically this poor old computer just can't handle it anymore it's asking too much of it and it has gone the way of the world and I'm just going to have to go beep and yeah it was nice to watch while we could anyways this thesis is going to allow us to demonstrate with clarity the results of embracing this utterly foreign method of interpretation that takes a foreign understanding of Genesis 9 and 10 and makes it the lens through which you look at everything else so that you have direct passages of scripture that state it straight out this is what

59:54

God's purpose is for the elect they're going to form the image of Christ they're all one in Christ it's his righteousness that avails before the throne the spirit of God is powerful in every single one of them and all of us know if we're in sound churches we all know

01:00:15

Asian brothers and Hispanic brothers and black brothers and sisters who experience

01:00:23

Christ's holiness and in many ways to a greater extent than white people do we all know that so we know this is a lie but once you create that lens then you find a way to get rid of all of those passages because this is your interpretive grid you have to maintain this everything else just disappears this is how cults work this is how

01:00:46

Jehovah's Witnesses work, Mormons work and Stone Choir work and so we're going to have the opportunity to demonstrate to every person watching not only on the 15th but on the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th because that's going out there and it's going to stay out there that the

01:01:09

New Testament teaches that the

01:01:15

Lord Jesus Christ the shepherd of the sheep by his death has made us all a kingdom of priests from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation every tribe, tongue, people, and nation says nothing about Ham says nothing about Japheth doesn't say anything about Shem doesn't say anything about any of that stuff but what it does say is that Father, Son, and Spirit have chosen to glorify themselves in an unworthy people it's not based upon anything we do but by conforming those people to the image of Christ and the irony

01:02:05

I think part of it was it tried to start trying to do one of those scan things and it's like, no I can't do this the irony is

01:02:14

Mahler identifies himself as primarily derived from a Germanic stock the people who wrote the

01:02:21

New Testament were not white they weren't lily white people from northern

01:02:28

Germany someplace when the New Testament was being written primarily by Jews Mahler's ancestors were offering pigs to pagan gods on altars and so he has to recognize that his ancestry by his own self proclamation can't limit the work of the

01:03:00

Holy Spirit of God and so you can talk about oh well you know and I've heard other people who clearly have been imbibing stone choir and imbibing this thinking likewise you know if your ancestors for a thousand years have been pagans you can't expect to just be converted and all of a sudden everything is going to change yes

01:03:25

I can that's why homosexuals can be delivered from homosexuality that's why racists can be delivered from racism and um because we believe what the

01:03:45

New Testament says you're a new creature in Christ Jesus so what your great great grandpappy did can't stop the

01:03:54

Holy Spirit from making you like Jesus that's the reality that's the gospel

01:04:00

I was extremely encouraged got an email yesterday from a family in our church and it's a biracial family

01:04:12

I don't like that term biracial multi -ethnic whatever and they've experienced bad stuff in their past being treated poorly by people in their past and when they heard the debate announcement that I was going to be debating this subject they were so thankful and I'm just so thankful for them

01:04:40

I've told the story before when I'm at Apologia I will normally be one of the two elders that stands up front we have two lines we come forward to receive the supper yeah it would be a lot faster if we distributed it amongst the pews and stuff but this is how we've always done it

01:05:11

I stand there we have to have someone on each side because once you exhaust the cups in one of the trays then you need to move that tray out of the way of the wine and stuff like that and so I get to watch how diverse the people are we don't sit there there has never been a day when we've sat around going we need to work on getting more of this color into the congregation this doesn't even cross our minds that's up to the

01:05:49

Holy Spirit of God you preach the word God brings his people that he wants to serve in that congregation now

01:05:59

I can tell you when some of this stuff has come up in our conversations and some of the other elders weren't aware of these things don't try to sneak this stuff into our fellowship it's not going to go well for you and of course

01:06:19

Jeff told the story at the end of ReformCon on Saturday about the birth of August Augustin the miracle baby he's not the same phenotype genotype as Jeff so especially

01:06:41

I would not stand in front of Jeff and pull any of this Cory Mahler stuff because like I said he can be standing in front of you and the next thing you know his foot is in your face

01:06:53

I mean just boom and ding ding lights go out don't do that, that would be really a bad thing to do we don't put up with it because we've seen we've seen how the

01:07:05

Lord can we've seen white professing

01:07:10

Christians turn out to be complete apostates and that can happen no matter what the race is but the exact same thing is true in reverse you can see people with a horrific background it doesn't matter what their race is but black people with a horrific horrific, they didn't have a dad they went through all the bad stuff they were in gangs, whatever drugs, guess what new creature actually means new creature new creature transcends your genetics, your history you know when you hear people say well you know the gospel changes genetics well the gospel changes the heart and so if you want to sit there and say well you know you can only go so far yeah tell the spirit of God buddy because one thing is obvious you haven't gotten very far so anyway

01:08:15

I think I've talked about most of the things yeah okay hold on, this is interesting topics are better as statements rather than questions right well okay so the wise disciple who's the debate review guy

01:08:54

I've been on his program and I don't think he actually said anything here okay there you go um yeah he said

01:09:07

I think so but that's my preference debaters can still clash if they understand their roles going into debates and of course if they engage the topic well thanks for the question well look we already know that what um

01:09:21

Corey Muller is saying is that the Holy Spirit cannot sanctify black believers the way that he can white believers so we know that's what he's saying um because he's made that statement rather boldly and clearly before um and then

01:09:40

Bibledinger is saying as we said before if James White and Corey Muller want to change the question into a statement we are totally open to as it stands though two experienced and one extremely seasoned debater saw and approved the question before accepting the debate can we trust them?

01:09:55

well yeah um I think so and hey if Muller wants to try to play games with the with the topic

01:10:02

I'm not gonna let him get away with that um and have you seen how many people are like well

01:10:08

James just don't lose your cool and I'm just like which 197 debates have you been watching buddy?

01:10:16

uh I mean what? and a few of them were just so wise in their rejoinders

01:10:24

I'm like well tell you what why don't you link me to your debates so I can watch some of them so I can respond to your criticism better cricket cricket cricket because they've never done anything it's so easy sit behind that keyboard do do do do do do okay get out there and do it yourself and then we can talk till then

01:10:43

I'm sorry it's sort of hard to take this overly seriously but um anyway

01:10:48

I think the thesis is great um the opening presentations

01:10:56

I'll be going first because I'm taking the positive yes the holy spirit is able to sanctify black believers uh and white believers because that's

01:11:06

I can't think of a more obvious statement to anybody who takes the new testament seriously

01:11:12

I just really can't but um what you're going to hear is a new testament which is by the way is the only place where the sanctifying work of the holy spirit is specifically explicated a new testament presentation on the grounds in light of who the elect are the decree of the father the work of the son imputation of the righteousness of christ the indwelling presence of the holy spirit the overall purpose and intention of god's work of salvation itself is to conform the image of jesus christ this is how god is glorified he's going to be glorified in all of the elect and then you're going to hear stuff about hamsham japheth population genetics stuff like that I don't know how you do that in 15 minutes

01:12:09

I can make a very good new testament presentation in 15 minutes you better be able to do that I don't know how he's going to cobble together anything other than just a bunch of authoritative statements that have nothing to do with scripture and he will not have time to develop with any kind of documentation so but he agreed to do it we will be more than happy to stand for the gospel truth that's what it is stand with our brothers and sisters of whatever ethnicity they may be and say that the church of jesus christ is sovereignly drawn by the decree of the father the work of the son and the application of the holy spirit from every tribe tongue people and nation this is the intention and we are going to resist anyone who is going to say well these brothers and sisters in christ are here to serve us our ancestor japheth um puts us in a better position than their ancestor ham and therefore you know i don't know if the questions are going to you know there aren't that there aren't going to be that many questions at the end but i'm sure people are going to be asking so could mahler uh be in a church with a black pastor black elders um can you partake at the table together because what does that mean what does it mean if you drink from the same cup and you eat from the same bread what's the application of that what does that mean if you if you then are you seriously going to turn to that individual and say yeah but you can't be as sanctified as i am because of my genetics my background uh don't know if those questions will be asked but but they they definitely should be thursday should should work should be on our regular schedule um i don't know if next thursday will do a program i'm not sure if you'd be wise to do a program right before the debate i'm sure the debate will take the place of the regular divine line program on thursday i am going to be on some other programs down here that's why i need to get this this thing fixed so i can see in the cameras um i'm gonna be on with keith foskey at 3 30 p .m

01:15:03

on this thursday so before we do the dividing line this thursday i'm gonna be on with keith foskey and then i'm gonna be on with tony costa on the 8th at um 4 30 p .m