Creating your own religion and Greek Orthodox | Apologetics Live 0012

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I'm Portion is moral. Oh boy Well, I'm debating him instead of you

00:32

All right, we are live apologetics live

00:44

Thursday night 8 o 'clock Eastern Time to answer your apologetic questions challenges debates

00:50

Whatever you may have we are here with Matt slick from karma org. That is

00:56

Christian apologetics research ministry I'm Andrew rap report from striving for eternity and we are here to answer your questions and Tonight we there was a debate that went on with On Calvinism with James White and I did

01:16

I did in you know Shoot a message over to Layton flowers who is doing a live

01:22

Watch party and then an after -show and I said, hey, why don't you come on over here and inform us on the debate and Matt as folks may be coming in here

01:32

Will may well you will talk about the debate you had with Layton on some of the issues of Calvinism And if folks want to join you can go to apologetics live calm

01:44

Apologetics live calm and there is a link to join that is on there

01:49

If you're on that page already, you may have to refresh the page So that you can get the link

01:57

So we're here every Thursday night except for next week as a note We will not be

02:05

Having the apologetics live week So just so you know, but Matt we are making some good headway on the

02:13

Christian apart the Christian podcast community We got some news

02:21

Someone, you know Justin Peters, we just got him set up. He's got he's finally after like a year actually year in three months

02:31

He will he's gonna finally be podcasting again and so good just getting that set up and For you, you know,

02:41

Justin for some of the stuff he does with the Word of Faith, but yeah, he's great yeah, he's he's he's the best with that and yeah, and yet what he really likes to talk about is theology and Things like that.

02:53

So that's mostly what he's gonna do on on his Podcast is some things that he's not as known for speaking on so looking forward to that Yeah so Matt you were recently on I think the

03:09

I'm trying to remember the name of the Arab radio

03:15

Trying to look at a BN a BN aromatic broadcasting network, right? Yes So now you guys were discussing parallels

03:24

Between Joseph Smith and Muhammad and here was we wait for folks to come in Maybe we could talk about that because I I remember when

03:32

I was studying Islam Noticing the similarities and I thought it was really strange and then a mutual friend of ours

03:37

Eric Johnson actually told me he wrote a little booklet and I have it somewhere on the similarities between Joseph Muhammad so while we wait for some folks to come in what are some of those similarities?

03:51

Yeah You did so what were you on a site I like doing that to you, you know

03:57

I do because here you are ready and I just derail your train Well, if you want me to find the parallels

04:05

I could do Well, I should release an article for it. Both say the

04:11

Bible is corrupted Both say that the Bible prophesies their particular prophets both say that their prophets received angelic information by which

04:27

By which the truth was restored Both have a sacred new revelation

04:33

Both say that their new book is the only correct one or most correct Both this is something a lot not a lot of bring out but both groups associate their prophet with salvation

04:45

You know some LDS people say that you have to accept Joseph Smith as a true prophet or you can't be saved

04:52

And of course, you know, you must obey a Muhammad Actually Allah and his prophet and things like that a similar kind of thing

04:59

Both groups say their God is the only true God and that their religion is the only true religion both deny the doctrine of the

05:06

Trinity Both have like I said additional scriptures both Teach salvation by works both now

05:14

Joseph Smith used to teach and he did taught polygamy wasn't was part of a religion and Muhammad taught the same thing so does

05:23

Islam and both Groups, you have the issue of testimony in that the

05:30

Shahada in Islam is to say there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet and In Mormonism you're supposed to say basically

05:38

I bear my testimony that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon is true and the LDS Church or the

05:43

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints is the True and restored church and these are the professions that qualify you as being

05:51

Official members of their groups. So there's a lot of similarities and there's differences too, but there's a lot Those are the similarities, you know, there's actually more that you could add to their here because oh, yeah, you have you have both of them

06:03

Married and had sex with girls at very young ages preteen Oh, yeah, you have both of them and as what

06:08

I first picked up on that thought interesting both of them had received some

06:15

Revelation they Claimed from an angel though They doubted it was an angel at first and both of them were in a cave or in darkness when that happened, right?

06:24

well, I'm trying to do is find documentation for both of them and So I ran out of time because you know,

06:29

I just got so much to do but where okay, let me ask you Where's the issue of darkness? With a revelation in Joseph Smith's case.

06:37

Well, supposedly it got dark just before there was a light, right? My understanding from the

06:44

Member trimmer if it was the first account or he had like eight different versions. Oh, yeah, there's a lot I think it was either the first or the third account where it was dark.

06:54

He was in the woods It was dark and then all of a sudden there was this bright light Yeah, there's that but also what

07:02

I like is that in order for him to get the revelation of the truth of the Book of Mormon He had to put his head in a hat

07:11

And seal the light So that there was no light present in The hat and he'd get revelation

07:20

Correct. Yeah that yeah, which is and he and for folks that don't realize he supposedly

07:27

Translated the Book of Mormon letter by letter. He'd stick his head in this hat and see a letter appear and and that's how they

07:35

Got that he's whacked You know If I was sort of cult

07:41

I'd do it differently. Yeah You got me. Okay, you got me nervous last week with that guy

07:47

Ron Rand that I hope he comes back But um, I think he is here good you got me nervous you and I talked about this off -air, but you and I were at your house and We were coming up with a thing when we had our old show of doing it like a skit of creating our own cult right and We're sitting at your kitchen table we

08:10

I mean we're just coming up with a really crazy funny ideas and all of a sudden I Said something.

08:16

I don't remember what it was and you got all serious like all of a sudden and you're like we can't do this We can't do this

08:23

No, no, we can't do this. I'm like what's wrong and you said you like suddenly got serious You're like look we can't do this skit if we do this skit

08:32

Someone will actually believe this someday. We're gonna be coming up and saying look we invented this cult

08:39

And some people are gonna be deceived by this. We can't do this Yeah, so afraid of that and then last last week with round route route

08:49

Yeah, he's starting his own religion or a LL and and you're like, oh

08:54

I'll help you start Like What was the reason

08:59

I said that though, well, I think we'll get to that when we get him on Because you did discuss that on the after show at over at the council so There was a question.

09:11

I came in before the show started from Levi a Good Jewish name and by the way, you had you had on the your recent mats like live podcast

09:20

You had a guy David a Jewish guy that you talked to on pal talk, right? Oh, we got to get that guy out here where you can discuss

09:29

That longer where he was denying Christ as as Messiah that unfortunately the time

09:35

With radio limits you to going through things that it would have been great to have a longer discussion with him

09:41

But Levi asks this question. He said what is the will of the father? Well, the father is that we listen to Jesus Okay, that's one thing

09:53

What the will the father is is hear him. This is my beloved son hear him The will the father is specifically that we listen to Jesus Christ So that's what we're supposed to be doing

10:04

Real quick be basic. Yeah, so and if Levi if you are watching there's more of it. Yeah Yeah, I mean if Levi comes in we

10:10

I mean, I'm sure he had more to that So, let's see, so I'll first add in Cat was the first one in but cats always quiet and doesn't say anything

10:22

Well, she said she's got a little you know, cold or something. She wouldn't be talking. So Trust me, it's a hot nasty mess

10:33

They just go get some pure vitamin C mix it equal measurements of baking soda there there's a relationship between those and And just go through and and do it take care of it

10:47

It makes yeah, the combination makes it bubble and after about two minutes the bubbling stops and someone told me about this

10:52

I forget what the reason was. Oh, but it's gone, you know, the effervescence leaves and then it's just it's not bad

11:00

Not good tasting but there's a combination between the two that does something blah blah blah blah blah.

11:05

It's really good for you Thank you. In the meantime, I'll try to be quiet because I'm just too wet

11:12

All right, and the blah blah blah blah blah is your technical language there yeah, and Which means

11:19

I don't remember what it was trying to sound intelligent and I blah blah blah my way through it Which doesn't really work anyway, so that's that's about it

11:27

Hey listen, so since since this next conversation might go long Let me let me give a plug for our sponsor early rather than later because I want to add

11:37

Roll in and he's gonna correct me. I probably butchered his name like four different times four different ways

11:44

Correct me And I forget actually his real I think he is that's not his real name

11:49

I think he gave that on the after show, but anyway We're sponsored here by my pillow

11:56

Actually, it's the Mets like live radio show that's sponsored by my pillow, but we use that here To help pay for well

12:04

Matt's radio station. Not what you're listening to here or Matt's radio program But my pillow is one of the best pillows

12:10

Matt and I both use it we love them They stay just as firm when you put your head down on the pillow as when you get up in the morning

12:19

It is a wonderful thing and it it's still I mean mine is I think five or six years old and it's still just as firm

12:28

Hasn't changed. It has like a 10 -year warranty, which is nice and I may on the rap report

12:38

May be actually interviewing Mike Liddell from my pillow so that's hopefully gonna happen in January, but you want to get on my pillow and sleep like Matt and I do and We know that I sleep better than Matt but much less time

12:52

That's because you don't have as much brain activity No, I I don't need as much sleep as you because I just go right to sleep.

13:00

I don't fight it You just go to sleep because you don't work your brain. I'm always working So my brain needs more rest apparently you don't need much rest so that was

13:11

I tell you Well, I think more what it is is that my brain is actually just working It goes right into sleep mode and then

13:18

I'm back because I'm I only need a couple of hours I'm like you who you know, you need that long like eight hours.

13:25

Yeah, I need eight hours Yeah, you get more use out of your my pillow than I do That's right.

13:35

I Apologize live in the Matt slick live show you can order it at one eight hundred nine four four five three nine six

13:43

That's one eight hundred nine four four Five three nine six and let them know you heard it on apologetics live and Matt slick live and so with that I want to bring and he's gonna crow your

13:55

You can unmute yourself and correct me on the proper pronunciation your name or give me if that's not your real name

14:01

Let me know. Oh Yeah, that's my online name. Yeah Get raw raw like all raw, okay

14:10

Yeah, I know I know everyone was I got confused cuz I can't I watched the after show last week and everyone was referring you

14:16

By I guess your real name and I was like, who's that? Oh, I know I logged in with the wrong one

14:21

So I'm still new to all this All right, so you were in last week your mic was just not working.

14:29

Well Now you're saying you're new to it, but I see you got that green screen behind you So, I don't know.

14:35

I knew I do but that's I just chucked that up there I I've I've never really done anything like online or anything, but I thought

14:43

I might as well be ready Yeah, well, it's clearly we you know, I saw that you lifted it up. So it's there must be a mess behind there

14:49

You're hiding. It's cool. I have a lot of I have Yeah, it's not so much a mess, but there's some things

14:56

I don't want you to see things Those are the rituals for his new religion

15:02

Matt So You guys started a conversation last week on the after show.

15:07

Why don't you guys pick that up here? I'm sure you have some more questions that you guys couldn't get to because Matt had to go.

15:14

Oh That's right. I I have updated my my moral axiom and I think it's more inclusive now and more self -evident

15:22

That's kind of interesting It's way more what's your moral axiom then? Okay, let's see here

15:30

My my new moral axiom I just modified it just a little bit But let's see

15:35

The action is an action is moral or immoral to the degree that it knowingly fulfills or denies the fulfillment of the needs of individuals

15:43

To the degree those needs are needed you got a problem an action doesn't know anything

15:49

Why didn't say an action knows anything you said? Yeah, you did Something an action is a little insular as it is knowing or it knows it was the antecedent

16:00

It was the action so that doesn't work But anyway, I mean the person performing the action an action is moral or immoral to the degree that it knowingly fulfills

16:10

So an action doesn't have any cognition. It's just an action a ball rolling down a hill is an action

16:16

It doesn't have any Knowledge, do you think you could interpret it more charitably?

16:23

Well an action Performed by a person by a person. Yeah an action performed by Knowingly or not, and if it's annoyingly that adds to the that adds to the immorality

16:39

Is in you're saying that when a person does something is moral or immoral to the degree Well that then what do you mean to the degree?

16:46

So that means you know in one sense in one case, you know, it can be lower It can be more moral or less moral than in another case

16:55

Okay, so it's not about degrees of morality. It's just moral or immoral. So you don't have any

17:02

That's why no, you don't have degrees. No, no, no. No, no, you're listening. The statement is problematic an action is moral or immoral

17:09

It to the degree So now you're set you just tell me that there's degrees of morality That's not what you're talking about The group or degree there is used differently in the how you're wording it an action is moral or immoral if That's all you should say if the person doing the action knowingly fulfills or denies

17:31

The needs of individuals Okay fulfills or denies the needs of individuals It's all it is.

17:38

Yeah, let me help you out and I'll show you why even that doesn't work. Okay a A person's

17:44

I watch this person's Action is moral You have to say moral or immoral.

17:51

It's just moral because immorality is a form of moral morality. There's good and there's bad Okay is moral an action is a person's action is moral if it fulfills the needs of Individuals Like that's the kind of thing you're talking about to the degree those needs are needed but that doesn't really

18:18

I'm only going to work with your logic. Yeah, there's no way this is defensible your position

18:24

Well, even when we get it down, it's still not defensible but look, I'm just gonna help you and show you that that That that level of thinking that you got to do in order to do something like this has got to be a little more

18:36

Clear, but even then when you get it nailed then I can just shred it

18:46

So you could say a person's action is moral if it fulfills the needs of individuals, okay

18:52

That's really that's a simplistic way of it. But it's usually moral to the degree that the needs are needed I mean because you know, if their needs are needed by definition and need is what's needed

19:02

Otherwise not a need so it's autologous. You don't say that there's different levels of need that we have to address

19:08

We're not you're not talking about that. You're talking about this morality. You had to have another statement Morality has different degrees

19:17

That'll be a second sentence no, it's all in that one Okay, I have an initiation

19:28

Ceremony for you and your new religion I Already have one but what's yours?

19:35

Oh, mine's better Everybody has a standard attention facing north magnetic or or do north but north is good and Generally, you have to do it at Sun down because you want the darkness coming up upon you

19:51

And then what you do is you stand at attention and you can salute as you move your hand

19:56

This is the new religion salute like this. All right, and then you look to your left

20:01

This is because it's not gonna be right. It has to be left. You're not right. It's left and then you slap yourself Three times and then you go back lower your hand to your side and then that's the initiation ceremony

20:14

What does that what does that what means does that fill? the needs of me being funny

20:20

Because What I do with people as I say, I take your right hand and put it for your face Look your left now slap yourself upside the head

20:27

I say this to people when they say things that don't make any sense. We're trying to defend the indefensible

20:32

So I was thinking to help you out that you could do this could be the advanced level or even just a mediocre level getting right in there because Because you don't have anything that you can justify all this with all you're doing is making stuff up.

20:47

You're making it up Why is it good if it works I Say, oh,

20:53

I guess it's true if it works. Well that that means it's it's consistent with reality

20:59

No, so a man is walking along a path next to a cliff 20 feet to his right or 10 feet to his right to the left is a cliff to his right is a forest

21:10

He's walking along a tiger jumps out at him. He ducks tiger goes over the cliff the man theorizes

21:17

All I have to do Whenever a tiger jumps at me is just duck and I'll be saved.

21:22

That's his theory So he walks that are 50 feet another tiger jumps and he tests his theory by ducking and what lo and behold

21:30

He's saved a third tiger the same thing. He has now verified repeatedly

21:36

That all you got to do is duck whenever a tiger jumps and you'll be safe if you're by a cliff

21:42

Didn't say that. Oh, he said here's the you gotta understand something Listen listen, that's not right.

21:50

The point is Just because something works doesn't mean it's true

21:57

That's the illustration You don't say something's true or morally good because it works

22:02

If I if I were to slap my wife in order to make her do What's not gonna work if I were to slap my wife and I were to make her make a sandwich by doing that It doesn't because it works doesn't mean it's good

22:13

I don't know. There's a certain utility to things being able to work.

22:20

I mean, you wouldn't want a moral axiom that didn't work For folks listening

22:30

Matt just put his hand in front of his face Signaling him to do the same thing

22:37

Okay, dude, you don't have any logic you don't have any basis all you have a subjectivity your system of philosophy is flawed

22:48

Tell me why that works why that is with regard to this specific moral axiom

22:53

Hold on one sec, Matt Raul when when you and Matt both talk we hear nothing. So I Know I know you're new to it, but you got to give that pauses.

23:03

Thanks. Okay here real simply Why is some what someone with their needs why does that make something moral

23:13

Because needs are objective Human because what? These are what human needs are objective and you know, they ought to be a bit.

23:21

Wait, wait, what do you mean? They're objective. What do you mean? Everybody has exact same need all the time No, but people have objective human needs that we can

23:29

Object. Give me a give me a need oxygen Okay, the bottom breathing.

23:35

All right. So why is that a moral issue? Well when you deny someone's need for oxygen

23:42

That's a big problem that's a moral infraction, especially if you why is it a moral infraction why they die because that's why is that Why is that a moral issue?

23:51

You don't think people have means have objective. I'm asking you I'm asking you to to justify your position

23:58

Yeah, I is that a moral thing, you know the basis of morality. I mean, that's the way we all is

24:04

It's a basis of morality. If there's a baby that needs milk and is crying for it.

24:09

What's the right thing to do? I'm asking what justifies you know, you're begging the question.

24:17

You're arguing a circle. Look, let me Look so they need to breathe.

24:24

Therefore. It's good. So what is good breathing? Well, how do you know breathing is good because that's what breathe because that's what good is.

24:32

It's self I don't know what's good. That's what breathing is. It's so we need a self -evident Maxim Maxim Says who says breathing is good.

24:42

I say breathing is everybody that breathes says breathing is good And what do you mean by good?

24:47

There's nobody that says well breathing sucks No Well, yes There are there are people who say breathing sucks when they have severe asthma when they're they have pneumonia and they're in pain and Breathing is difficult for them.

25:00

Yeah, but it's I've had all that and it's still good to breathe man. Look dude Usually you said nobody says breathing sucks

25:09

Yes, there are people who say all of that horrible kind of breathing and still I appreciate it breathing.

25:14

I appreciated it more Ralph You know,

25:20

I'm trying to get you to show to show you that you're Incredibly illogical and you have no basis for justifying your opinions on what is moral or not moral

25:32

Why do you think that needs are are an improper basis for for for morality obviously, you know

25:38

The best thing that we can do is fulfill means my need is for you to not

25:44

Talk like that and try and develop your own thinking and religion because it's very bad

25:50

It causes me stress and strain to see someone illogical who's going to injure other people.

25:55

That's my need. So that's a good thing, right? Well, it depends how needful that is in our interaction, oh, it's very needful do your needs drop mine maybe it's it's very needful

26:07

I mean, obviously I'm the kind of guy where this is very serious for me I've spent decades of working with people about the issue of truth and trying to get them to stop stuff

26:17

So you that are bad teaching so obviously it's very very serious need for me, isn't it? How much like on a scale of 1 to 10, what's your need level

26:27

Oh 12 and And What do you base that on? What's your foundation? We talked about my needs my needs are what

26:35

I need. So it's my my personal need and you said needs are objective So I need you heard of master object

26:43

I'm sorry, my need is objective. So my need means that you have to obey it if it's my need and it's objective

26:49

It's not objective yet until we put it, you know on some kind of ranking and I would say I would suggest

26:54

Maslow's hierarchy of need Where does your need fit into Maslow's hierarchy of need? Who says

26:59

Maslow's right? It's a great starting place who says he's right

27:05

He says it's a great starting I say it and you know when it doesn't make it right when we look at at the hierarchy of need

27:14

It's obvious that that infractions against the lower part of the hierarchy of need are worse

27:20

Morally worse than infractions against the higher So Maslow Maslow knows the need he knows the needs of all people in all situations and can declare

27:29

What is morally correct? Is that what his his hierarchical needs is? He has put out an objective thing about needs.

27:37

Yeah, he's starting with you know Survival needs like oxygen and food and shelter and things.

27:43

Those things are important and you know infractions against those are You know objectively morally worse than infraction and say, you know,

27:50

Andrew asked me that question That's a good good question here So, what do you think about abortion killing the life in the womb of the mother you for it or against it?

27:59

mmm We mean for it or against it. Are you for abortion killing the life in the womb or not?

28:09

You're not anything so you have no problem with someone killing I don't I'm not for killing things, you know if then it's abortion wrong the mother's need trumps the

28:19

Fetuses I guess that And now so then so then what you're saying is what you're saying is the if the mother's need trumps the need of the baby

28:28

Then it's okay to kill the baby for needs are greater. For example, my my my my wife's sister, you know, she had a

28:36

What is it called when they have a baby in the? In the wrong part of their body.

28:42

It was like in the to in vitro or no, it's not a vitro It's a fallopian to where it's gonna die

28:47

Yeah, look we're not talking about super exceptions look that's not Wrong just some woman wants to kill the baby in her because it is it's an inconvenience

29:04

Raw take a breather you guys guys stop talking over each other this time.

29:10

He was mad So look Just a woman doesn't like the idea of it being pregnant

29:17

It's inconvenient might cost her a boyfriend a job whatever. She doesn't like it might get her stretch marks

29:24

So she decides to kill the baby. Is that okay? Because her needs are greater than the babies that make it

29:29

Okay, I don't think that the needs of a baby for survival can be trumped by someone's need for a job so then

29:38

Are you against that? Yeah, yeah that according to moral axiom that I put out there that would obviously be an immoral act so So you think abortion is wrong or just some abortions

29:52

Well, if the if the needs of the mother You know are greater than the needs of the fetus

30:00

Okay, because a woman has more needs than a fetus does. I mean she has more

30:07

Survival she has social needs. She has all these other needs. Yeah Basic survival needs at that moment, you know, so you have to make a decision especially if you know the mother's you know

30:18

Life is on the line, right? If the baby is need is to live Versus the mother's need to go be social and not be pregnant so she can get that her boyfriend see

30:30

Yeah, you're doing wrong Then it's wrong you're saying it's wrong. Okay, right because of the needs

30:36

Because of the need so that life is superior to Having life is superior to the boyfriend job.

30:45

You're to the need for a job Okay, so then what would be the exceptions to that? The only exception would be if a mother's going to die for sure then because both will die

30:55

Then you take the life of the baby. That's the only exception then I I don't know.

31:01

I guess it you would go down to needs. That's what I'm saying I I don't have all of the medical things figured out.

31:07

That would be okay. Um Hmm, so if you got people who want to follow you in this, oh, yeah.

31:15

Yeah, we have a group and stuff. It's fun How many of there are you about 30 40 of us so far and where do you meet in our house?

31:27

and You guys are inventing a religion. Mm -hmm Me mostly I have most of the ideas.

31:34

Where do you live? Should I tell you? City state that's good

31:43

Okay, yeah, I'm out there every now and then um, I'd be fun to live outside, Boise, okay

31:49

May I ask are you creating this for funsies and kicks and this is a genuine question

31:56

I'm not trying to disrespect your idea at this point. Well, I mean never but you know what? Are you sure are you trying to form this, you know thing for fun?

32:05

Wouldn't it be funny if we did this and see how many followers we got or is the whole purpose of this?

32:11

These are your beliefs and you want to spread your beliefs to others like a lot of religions do or what is what is your?

32:17

Goal or reasoning behind doing this because obviously yours. Well, I feel like right now what you're saying is that You're just making this all up.

32:26

And so therefore, you know, it's it doesn't sound like a serious Effort to have a religion.

32:34

Oh Yeah, thanks for the question cat. Um, it's it's absolutely serious. Um, That's absolutely serious.

32:42

I think it's important that we have And I don't want to I don't want to be blasphemous or anything

32:48

But I think it's important for us to have a really good a good religion that is started, you know with absolute, you know

32:55

Reasonable foundations and you know something that that can grow You know logically and reasonably throughout the years

33:02

I think it's really important and you know, obviously it's in morality is important to me you know, like I've been talking about and Yeah, there's there's nothing that is, you know facetious or you know, so how serious is this group of people who want to do this?

33:17

serious And that they want to actually start another religion. Yeah, what are you gonna call it?

33:24

Meslonianism, no, it's called the one religion That's right the one religion mm -hmm and have you got a list of tenants of this one religion

33:34

No, we have we were trying to go from we know now we have a moral axiom We also have you know in our book, which is unpublished as of yet But we also have have the

33:43

Ten Commandments in there for moralness and wait, wait, wait, wait I mean the biblical Ten Commandments what the biblical

33:49

Ten Commandments the biblical Ten Commandments. Yeah, they're there for wait a minute Wait The biblical

33:56

Ten Commandments say not to have any other God before God and not to make any other idols not any idols at all So how so your religion now has the

34:04

Christian God as a true God? It's a crowd -sourced religion that we can we can you know introduce whatever we wish, you know but for consideration

34:11

I introduced the the tenants of Hinduism that it was Let me see here

34:18

I the there's a real nice passage in the Quran about it's kind of their Ten Commandments and I use the

34:24

Ten Commandments of Judaism the five Buddhist precepts and the ten commitments of Hinduism and I also chucked in John 17 because I really like it.

34:34

What about something from Hitler? How about something good that he said? Why?

34:41

Well, I'm not that's not because if you're gonna pull from the Quran and you're gonna cool down from other places that allow for various depending on the religions allowing for Very immoral actions.

34:53

Why not pull something because I'm sure I'll promise you right now Hitler said something that was maybe beautiful and touching and heartwarming in his life

35:02

Cat thing caught if it's a crowd if it's correct, you know crown fuck not crowd funded or not, but crown source

35:09

You Just need to get enough Neo -nazis to join and even his worst

35:15

Hitler's worst things that part of his religion exactly Yeah, and you're okay with that if you have that I mean that people coming in and these are all honest questions

35:25

I'm really trying not to insult you That you're okay with people who are gonna come in and say that one race in this world is the supreme race

35:33

And you're okay with them coming and being a part of your church and being a representative of this Religion that you're creating that's okay with you

35:40

Well, that doesn't mean that they're correct about what they assert certainly and anything that they that they do assert

35:46

You know is gonna have to be vetted by the rest of the congregation and you know Unreasonable things like racism is gonna drop out quickly.

35:53

It's not logical So, let me let me ask you a question You're creating this religion right

36:03

I'm with this religion Where does truth fit in Hopefully in all levels

36:13

I Mean if we if we can't prove things reasonably, you know, we're not gonna regard them as true.

36:19

Hopefully. How do you know? What truth is? Well, I guess we can use you know, justified true belief if you want to What does that mean that's word salad is it yeah cuz it didn't make any sense

36:34

Casserole it's a religious casserole Just whatever he feels for knowledge, so you guys establish truth by vote

36:47

No We're going to establish the the scriptures. Those are going to be raised or low kind of like read it

36:55

Maybe you know things will get voted up and down, right? But then you're then you're you're at the subject to other people's opinions

37:01

I want to come in and I want to just let's say there's no religion and actually let's bring you know

37:08

Some other deity that I've created in my mind Well, if I can get enough popularity, then I'm gonna be able to take that over That's kind of the way reddit works too is to change minds and whatever you want for something

37:20

That's the truth. And you know what? I was not there when Jesus was present So I can't tell you

37:25

I witnessed anything with my eyes But I have seen things in my life that show me the truth and I mean

37:31

I I mean How deeply have you truly studied the Bible the Christian Bible and talked with people and prayed with God and opened your mind in?

37:40

Your heart to know what the truth is for you personally because anything any of us can say it's just a great story

37:46

You know what? I mean? It's like, you know, I can tell you about when I saw angels and it'll be oh, that's so cool

37:51

But that was only for me personally. You can't feel what I felt So, I mean how deep are you really delving into the

37:59

God's Word? Because it'll be verified to you in a heartbeat if you're truly searching for him.

38:06

Oh Well, that's a good question. I mean, honestly, I grew up in the church, you know from age I think

38:12

I was saved probably at age four and then you know, I've been a Christian most all my life

38:17

I was a youth minister and I preached Sunday evenings and you know in two different churches.

38:23

I'm a good guy Preaching each in the word, but I don't know

38:28

I kind of well, I saw I I think the thing that changed my mind was all the contradictions in the

38:35

Bible when I eventually saw those and all the What oh, yeah sure.

38:41

Do you want to go there? Yeah, I mean you say there's so many because there's two where I'd like to go if you could if if if Matt wants but The two things one you say you used to be a

38:54

Christian So you I mean, maybe I still am if you know once they've always seen

39:01

Well, not necessarily You're familiar with with John 219 right

39:08

First John 219. Is that the one they if they are from us? They never know that they went out from us

39:14

But they were not of us for had they been of us they would have continued with us

39:21

But they went out. Well, that might become plain that they were not of us.

39:27

Do you believe that? Well, I think that's a really, you know easy way to you know discount anybody who leaves

39:33

No, yeah, it is because what it says is that they were hypocrites. That's not pretend right?

39:39

Yeah, they were hypocrites I was not a hypocrite all my life Says who got to God So the point being is in what standard you yeah you can't say you were a

39:49

Christian and the Bible was your your ultimate authority and then deny what the Bible says because you're your feelings don't or Experiences don't match so I could have never acted as my as if not the

40:00

Bible was my ultimate authority I certainly did obviously it isn't because you don't believe it And It's not so you deny that that things can change like that a

40:13

Christian can come on Christian no Oh, yeah, I definitely agree a Christian can't be an unchristian, but the point being is an ultimate authority

40:22

You if something is your ultimate authority? You can't be convinced. Otherwise, right?

40:29

It's it's the authority. Well, no things can stop being an open role. Let me finish census So so essentially what it is is the real ultimate authority in your life was not

40:39

God and the Bible but you Know know you can have an ultimate authority and switch

40:45

Then that wasn't your authority. Yeah, it was So, do you believe that verse in first John?

40:53

No, I don't I don't have a lot of belief in the Bible yet or anymore so much. There's so many contradictions

40:59

Okay, except for the the Ten Commandments I didn't say that.

41:06

I believe that in the book. I put that in their own iteration Right, I'm sorry,

41:12

I'm sorry Means, you know considering the different options. Okay, so let's let's and Matt I don't know if there's you know, we got a bunch of topics here.

41:21

We could we could touch on I mean, there's there's the issue of truth with a crowd sourced religion

41:29

Because you where do you get truth from I Do I'd love to see us discuss these contradictions because I've seen countless number of websites with lists of contradictions most of which you can even go to calm and Find the answers easily.

41:48

Most of them are a lack of understanding of culture History or the people of the time or the language?

41:57

So You know to address the contradictions before I was overwhelmed by them

42:03

So which name one? I mean, what's what's the the biggest contradiction that you saw?

42:09

well, the the thing that bothers me the most and is most contradicted in the Bible that I think of as The thing that really got me is all the different ways to be saved

42:20

What? Matt how many ways are there to be saved in the Bible? Well, no, there's two there's actually two there is two

42:28

I'll grant him that yeah, actually there is keep the law perfectly or through Jesus But yeah, no way to keep the laws.

42:34

Yeah There's two there's all kinds of ways to be saved in the

42:44

Bible we're waiting Okay, um, let's see

42:53

First John 2 17 he that doeth the will of God abideth forever Okay speaking to someone who's already saved so that doesn't count for your argument so move on okay, so If you do the will of God you abide forever.

43:11

No, that's spoken to someone who already is a Christian therefore That can't be a requirement to be a

43:17

Christian. So like I said, it's it's your lack of understanding of the text He's not speaking to people who are trying to become

43:26

Christian that text deals with people who are Christian Well, so why doesn't it just say if you just to do the will of God, why does it add abideth forever?

43:36

Because once saved you're always saved you're not gonna lose your salvation. Well, that's the point. Let's move on to another one.

43:43

Okay Let's see Romans 6 to see this is a

43:50

I don't know. Where are you reading them from? Let's see. It's the King James Version No, I'm saying are you looking on a website?

44:00

No, it's a list of my contradictions. I have it's a it's a

44:10

It's a document that I have. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah, okay I was just gonna look up which one and see okay.

44:18

Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't have a it's not on the web Um this one call on the name of the

44:23

Lord whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Okay, that's Matt already discussed.

44:29

That is the second way of salvation It's just call on the name of the Lord and you can be saved. That's me

44:38

Okay, that's not a contradiction All right, um, how about work your way to heaven

44:46

In songs or you render to each according to his works Okay, that's dealing with the issue of justice not salvation

44:56

That's not salvation No, you're you're see this is this is the thing people always do and they say there's contradictions in the

45:04

Bible They start doing a logical fallacy calls a fallacy of equivocation. You're using the word justice two different ways

45:12

There is an ultimate justice and there is justice when it comes to salvation But how someone becomes saved as you said there's contradictions there

45:20

We're asking and so far you've used an argument for someone who is already saved Therefore, it's not the requirement for salvation or household get saved

45:27

You used one that refers to justice has nothing to do with the topic of salvation just Justice in both but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

45:37

So that's a category error So so here would be a thing here be a thing for you, bro We talk about truth and I know

45:44

Matt wants to get back to talking about this religion that you you want to start But when you talk about truth

45:49

One way to determine if something's true or let me use a different term valid is by using logic

45:58

You've so far used two different logical fallacies in claiming. The Bible has contradictions that makes your argument so far invalid so what

46:08

All Different verses that touch say all kinds of different ways to be saved in the Bible I know and so far you've given three and not one of them is a contradiction and they all say exactly the same way

46:19

To be saved. They're not talking about salvation so far you Know with one that has to deal with salvation and that's to call upon the name of the

46:28

Lord and we agree. That's right So says he that doeth the will of God abideth forever

46:35

Abiding forever doesn't have anything to do with salvation. That's Sanctification. Do you know the difference?

46:42

And sanctification for the eternal life. Hold on. You can't talk over me because I couldn't hear what you said Do you know the difference between?

46:49

sanctification and regeneration Sanctification is a cleansing from sin and Regeneration is is

47:02

Usually I've heard of regeneration that's having to do with the body. Okay, so regeneration is that point where someone is justified they there

47:09

The state that you're saying saved it's when someone goes from being an enemy of God to a child of God It's at one point in time that that God Brings them to repentance and then they have eternal life so they they're

47:25

As you were referred to call upon the name of the Lord now Sanctification is the process that starts after they're justified

47:33

That's an ongoing process until they die and you've just confused those two if you want to talk about how someone gets saved

47:40

You're talking justification Not fighting forever

47:46

But you're talking about a different doctrine. You're talking about someone who already is Saved so why someone who's already saved need to abideth forever

47:55

I mean he that doth doeth the will of God abideth forever So, let me ask you a question.

48:03

So if he did Would he still abide forever? Raul? Are you are you an American citizen? Yeah, I'm in Portland.

48:10

Okay How can you become an American citizen now? How can

48:16

I become an American citizen now? I could give up my citizenship and reclaim it You can't become an

48:21

American citizen. You already are one, correct? Well, unless I gave it up and reclaimed it unless you gave it up.

48:27

So so scripture says you can't give it up In the case of salvation then there's no way

48:32

That a passage referring to someone who already is saved can be referencing how to get saved

48:39

Well, it sounds like you're you have your interpretation of how to be saved and you're interpreting every other passage that talks about how to How to be saved in light of one specific way

48:49

No, actually, it's when we do hermeneutics this the science of interpretation. We look at the culture.

48:55

We look at the context we look at these different things and When he writes to people who are already saved

49:03

Writing to them. He's not going to be telling them how to get saved because they already are saved

49:08

It'd be like me trying to tell you how to become an American when you already are one. Okay. Well, let's do one more

49:14

No, that's not a contradiction other than in your own mind. Okay. Well, this is a contradiction. Okay and We'll give a couple more than I know

49:23

Matt wants to get back to Discussing the the plans of your new religion, okay

49:30

Here's one. John 3 5 says except a man be born of water and of the

49:35

Spirit He cannot enter into the kingdom of God Is that same thing?

49:41

so this is John 3 5 So there's this one would be because the

49:48

Spirit is speaking of that regeneration that we talked about So if they're born out of the womb, that's the water and born of the

49:58

Spirit Regeneration if he's not doesn't have those two. He can't enter the kingdom of God Needed to be saved.

50:06

Huh? What exactly is needed to be saved according to you guys? Well as this verse says you have to be born if be human being you come out of the womb and Have the

50:18

Holy Spirit Regenerate you now you can look at this verse you could look at the one that you said call upon the name of Lord you could look at Romans 8 9 and 10.

50:29

Sorry Romans 10 9 9 and 10. This is if you believe in your with Believe in your heart that Jesus is

50:37

Lord and confess with your mouth that he rose. No, sorry I got that reversed believe in your heart that he that he rose from the dead and confess with your mouth that he is

50:44

Lord You'll be saved. That's the same thing Well, that's different than being born of water and spirit, isn't it?

50:51

No, that's exactly the same event Okay, that's being because at the time that someone gets

50:57

Regenerated the Holy Spirit indwells them that's being born of the Spirit. That's what that refers to If you were a pastor, where did you where did you get your go for seminary?

51:06

I Didn't go to seminary. I was just a youth minister and I preached on Sunday evenings. Okay, I studied a lot.

51:13

I Really want to say that whoever put you behind a pulpit should never have it if you

51:21

So that's an incorrect thing to say I Preach great and you know, I yeah, but you don't understand the basics of Christianity.

51:28

You don't even understand what justification You don't know what I preach and you don't know what I said back then

51:33

Andrew I had a different way of thinking about you don't you don't know it now is the point

51:38

So if you don't know then and I certainly know what I knew then But that doesn't mean that the things that I know now are the same as what

51:45

I knew then Yeah, I know but the point being is if you don't understand these doctrines now, how could you have known them?

51:51

Then it's not that you're saying you disagree with the doctrines and you believe they should be something different You don't even know what they are which doctrine are you talking about?

51:59

Well, we just went over justification Regeneration sanctification and you didn't have a right definition for any of them.

52:07

So let's let's get Back to your religion that you're creating So can we do a couple more different ways to be saved because I don't fully understood this

52:18

There's the Bible has hundreds of different ways. It's so far. You have not come up with one contradiction

52:24

Well, right, you've said they're all exactly the same. They all mean exactly the same thing. They all refer to the same the same thing

52:31

Yes, well except for the ones that you refer to people who are already saved or something that has nothing to do with salvation

52:38

Okay, whosoever therefore shall confess me before men him will I confess also before my father who is in heaven

52:46

Okay so in order Confess God before men

52:52

When would we confess people before when would Jesus confess them before the father in that? Verse and you didn't tell me the verse so I can't look it up.

52:59

Oh, I'm sorry. That's Matthew 10 32. So in there

53:06

In in that event if God if Jesus is is doing that with the father

53:12

Wouldn't we have to be dead and in heaven for that to be true? It's saying that if you confess

53:18

Jesus before men Jesus will confess you before God, okay So first off that confession would

53:26

I don't see where that's gonna happen Here on earth, but let me let me just Confess Jesus before men a lot in the

53:34

Bible. Well, that's that if you do that if you confess Jesus before men God will confess or Jesus will confess you before God and that so this is what's the what's the requirement for salvation here?

53:47

Because it is whosoever. Therefore shall confess me before men Him I will confess also before my father which is in heaven.

53:55

Okay If I confess God about God Jesus is gonna confess to the father about me

54:04

That's what right Okay, how's that have anything to do with salvation the way you're saying it?

54:10

Well, if it so if Jesus confesses you before God, don't you get saved? No, that would actually say

54:18

I'm already saved because I'm confessing the father Of Christ which means I'm already saved

54:24

So this would be speaking of someone who already is saved and they're now there as a believer confessing

54:30

So this can't be the requirement for salvation. This is someone who already possesses it. Okay Well, we can do the inverse here who therefore does not confess me before men him

54:40

I will not confess before my father which is in heaven I mean, you know it okay like it certainly seems like it's a salvation requirement and maybe maybe or just Alone, it's post salvation.

54:53

What it's post salvation Again, this is sanctification.

54:59

That's your claim. Well that if it's post salvation Why does why does it matter whether Jesus confesses him before the father in heaven?

55:06

He's stating what will happen a believer will confess God. Okay. Well We'll Why does it say if?

55:15

Well We'd have to look at the type of conditional clause that is there because there's

55:21

Conditional clauses in the Greek This is verse 32 thou shalt confess with thy mouth the

55:27

Lord. So the way The way this would be translated is so then so you're if we look at this in the

55:36

Greek Confess me before men him. Well, I confess also before my father which is in heaven

55:43

Mm -hmm. It's just a different a different way to be saying

55:50

No, it is not. It's not so it's not it's not So if you confess if I don't know for men

56:00

Well, Jesus confessed me before God Wait, you're in you're in Matthew 10 32, right?

56:07

Yeah So everyone who acknowledges me before men not if Okay, so unless you're gonna make the argument on the on the type of conditional clause this is

56:19

Okay. Well, so my question is if I acknowledge Jesus before you

56:27

Will Jesus Confess me before God. I Will you will not do that?

56:33

If you're not already a believer. Oh, I can I confess Jesus No, you don't

56:42

That's your claim and I've can know that's God's claim I've been all kinds of times to all kinds of people.

56:51

So was the Bible written in English? No, because you're making it about the word if so The word there should be so there isn't even in the verse

57:05

The verse says whosoever therefore shall confess me before men him. Will I also confess before my father which is in heaven?

57:12

There's no if there at all There's a so everyone Yeah, whoever does this?

57:19

Me before men Jesus will confess before the father So he's stating a fact.

57:27

Mm -hmm. That has nothing to do with salvation so again, I I'm just trying to I mean we've gone through enough of these to show that no we have okay

57:37

Let's let's do one more one Doth also now save us Putting away of the filth of the flesh.

57:44

Wait, give me the verse so I can look it up. This is first Peter 321 first Peter 321 so baptism doth also save us now save us.

57:56

So does baptism save Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as the removal of dirt but of the body and As an appeal to God and good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

58:12

So Does baptism save? Absolutely baptism from water.

58:18

No Of the spirit. Yeah, that's exactly what we looked at in John. That's one more way to be saved that you know, it is not

58:25

That's right back to being saved by water by water and spirit This is the way in the

58:30

Holy Spirit in dwells a person that's called baptism That's baptism of the

58:37

Holy Spirit and that's what saves you That is so again What saves a person is when

58:43

God does a work several things happen you become adopted into his family you become regenerated justified

58:48

You become spirit baptized. Okay, the Holy Spirit indwells a person I think

58:55

I forgot a couple typically that saves you What saves a person is God?

59:01

What Jesus Christ did on the cross? and Only what Jesus Christ did on the cross saved a person and God brings them to regeneration.

59:10

He brings them to repentance It sounds like a huge thing all kinds of different things There's there's different aspects of it.

59:18

So let me ask you a question There's on you have a coin handy. Okay?

59:24

Yeah, okay Look at the coin and one side Okay, what is it?

59:32

It's a quarter. Okay, so it's heads One side's head.

59:37

What's the other side? Some kind of duck. A duck?

59:45

Yeah. Okay, and what's the side? What do you mean the duck? It's the duck side. There's a head side and a duck side

59:51

What about this? What about the one in the middle on the side of it where it has all the edges? Yeah, it has little lines on it.

59:58

Okay, so so it's got which it can't be a coin unless it's Because you know, it's just got to have the head then.

01:00:04

What are you talking about? I'm trying to use your argument I Mean the coin has different facets to it

01:00:10

But you want to focus on one aspect and say that has to attribute to all of it Well, no, my argument is that is that it's it's there's there's all kinds of different ways that the

01:00:19

Bible says to be saved in No, there isn't there's different aspects of the same event. How do you say now?

01:00:24

You're saying there's all kinds of these different aspects And no, there's I was I was quite clear that there's sit when when the

01:00:31

Holy Spirit brings us to repentance and God does a work in us.

01:00:36

That is when we get saved which would be regeneration at that moment Though we were once enemies of God.

01:00:43

We become adopted into his family though. We are guilty We are now have eternal life in our are set free.

01:00:50

We're justified What are we doing with the Holy Spirit? These are all simultaneous things that happen when someone gets saved which is a work of God God does that and brings us to repentance and when we repent

01:01:04

We would be what you call saved But this is not a contradiction because this is the baptism of the

01:01:10

Holy Spirit when the Spirit indwells us Okay, so you but you have to be baptized Baptism. No, you're a fallacy of equivocation

01:01:18

The verse the word here is to plunge in the Greek you don't focus on the

01:01:23

English Yes, the plunging of the Holy Spirit saves us when

01:01:29

God when God indwells us we he only does that when we're saved Okay, so faith seem like believe is it saves us baptism is this

01:01:39

God saves? Okay, all of the there are different aspects that are simultaneous things that happen that describe different aspects of the same event

01:01:49

They're not different ways of salvation. And that's the thing you're equivocating on that and you're trying to take different aspects and saying it's on different But the question is how does someone get filled with the

01:02:00

Holy Spirit? Because that's what this verse is talking about. So how does someone gets filled with the

01:02:06

Holy Spirit role? I guess you guys don't think it's Doesn't have anything to do with the person.

01:02:11

It's whatever God chooses, right? Well, I would say that God works through the individual so though even though they they repent it's still what

01:02:20

God has brought them to do God works through him. He super intends is the theological term for it

01:02:26

So it even their choices he they choose exactly what he intended Okay, so so we've gone through all the ones that you know, we even did a couple extras for you

01:02:36

Not one of them contradict. Well, that's incorrect. They there are you know, we talked about baptism first off You gave me

01:02:43

I asked you how you were saved and you gave me a bunch of reasons and then you know You added to them as we went on You added each time

01:02:51

I gave you a different thing. You said well, oh, yeah, but this this is important, too Oh, yeah, this happens at that moment, but that's not how you get saved.

01:02:58

You notice the difference You're talking about an event that occurs not and you say that's the requirement and so you're you're what you're trying to do is you're trying to say

01:03:08

What the the requirement is how to get saved and then you refer to things that happen at or after salvation

01:03:16

No, that's not how you get saved. That's what happens at or after Well, maybe it should be more divinely clear.

01:03:23

I Really like your help on a few more of these if you don't mind, there's well

01:03:29

I I want Matt Matt Matt's wants to get to some of the this stuff with this religion You're creating and I want to get to that too.

01:03:36

So why don't why don't we deal with that? All right. Well, that's fine. It's fine. It's just it these the salvation

01:03:45

Paul the biggest one that I have and well if I could if I could Understand and and get rid of the contradictions around salvation.

01:03:54

I would be that much closer to salvation Well, why don't you just ask me one of them? I'm sorry.

01:04:00

I couldn't hear I need to turn you up Can you can you ask me one of them? Ask you one of One of these contradictions, oh sure.

01:04:09

Sure. Um Let's see, um Here's one that that talks about, you know having babies to be saved

01:04:18

And Adam it's from 1st Timothy 2 14 and 15 and Adam was not deceived

01:04:23

But the woman being deceived was in the transgression notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety, so Childbearing has something to do with salvation now

01:04:41

If you go to 1st Timothy 2 12 and 13 It says I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over men

01:04:46

But remain silent for Adam was first created verse 13 Then it goes into verse 14 and when we be saved saved in childbirth

01:04:52

So what he's talking about here is the addition the issue of authority in the Adamic structure Because Adam was the first created person.

01:05:00

Therefore he has authority So the issue here has to do with what a woman's place is in relationship to that authority now what you don't know is that in Greek the word for salvation is satiria us one of the

01:05:14

Goddesses that was a goddess of childbirth in Greek and Roman culture There was a variation on the name.

01:05:21

I think Artemis, but also is another variation of the name was satiria which is similar to the Greek word satiria us and So they would be saved the women thought they'd be saved in childbirth if they prayed to this

01:05:34

This goddess and so what Paul is doing is simply as he often does he switches context and topics?

01:05:39

He kind of jumps from one thing to another sometimes to make a point about something and he's saying look You'll be saved satiria us instead of satiria

01:05:47

Like that kind of a thing instead of this pagan system You'd be saved through your childbirth through the delivery of it.

01:05:53

Keep your eyes on Christ It seems to be a pun. It seems to be a pun that he's a placing in the

01:05:58

Greek language So are we? No, no, no, it doesn't say that having babies is what saves them

01:06:06

Save you'll be saved by and through because the word there in the Greek community one and so what it's just talking about there is

01:06:13

That but it seems to be culturally that all that's going on is Paul's trying to get the ladies there

01:06:19

To not pray and seek the false goddess of childbirth but in the real

01:06:24

Salvation they're going to have and one of the theories is that the salvation that they're going to have is

01:06:30

Through the birth process where the Messiah is or you got to look to the Messiah in the birthing of what's going on There are different theories about what it means

01:06:38

That's all this is not a big deal so a woman can't can't be saved by child child

01:06:44

Do you let me ask you a question? Do you actually think that the people of the New Testament? Seriously, do you think they're that stupid that they would say that a woman is saved from her sins and goes to heaven because she has babies

01:06:57

You think that's what they're saying, let me ask you well, what does it that's what it says, let me ask you Direct question.

01:07:03

I'll ask you a direct question wrong Do you think that's what they're saying that they actually believed that salvation forgiveness of sins going to heaven was because you had a baby

01:07:11

Yeah, that's what it reads. Okay. Well, you know what look well, we can't I can't do anything with you.

01:07:17

You're very illogical you Can't think critically you can't think come on man.

01:07:23

I'm just reading what the Bible says. That's not illogical. Okay Except the problem is you don't understand

01:07:33

Context, okay, you know Let me explain something to you for example There's a parable where there was a landowner

01:07:41

And there was a wicked steward and the wicked steward Was found out that he was being bad and this landowner said give me the account of your of everything

01:07:51

And so before he did that he went to his people under him and said

01:07:57

How much do you owe I owe a thousand dollars make it for five How much do you owe five thousand dollars make it for two thousand dollars? How much do you owe?

01:08:02

You know eight hundred dollars make it for four hundred dollars, right that kind of thing and the landowner praised

01:08:09

This this liar this cheat. He praised him and jesus said and the landowner praised him for his shrewdness

01:08:17

Now if you read that on the surface isn't jesus Then just saying that it's okay to be deceptive and lying or to get what you want and be safe Hmm Yeah, i mean he he said that before in like mark four

01:08:31

So you're saying that as jesus is saying it's okay to lie and and deceive and that's okay Oh, yeah, that's why he told parables so that people wouldn't understand and condemn, right?

01:08:39

Yeah mark 4 10 through 12. I asked you a question Are you saying that jesus is saying it's okay to lie and that's what the parable was about that?

01:08:46

He gave what the landowner and the steward the unjust steward. So he's saying it's okay to let I don't think I would

01:08:52

I don't I don't have an opinion on that Okay, look, let me explain something to you.

01:08:57

Let me explain something to you The land the steward represented the landowner That was his job. So when he went to the people who were

01:09:04

The the workers of the land and he said how much do you owe 5 000 make it for 2 000 They assume that it's because it's the word of the landowner that this man is carrying out

01:09:17

They assume it's not the steward's job, but the landowners instructed him to do this

01:09:23

That's what that's how it would work he's the representative of the landowner he's the representative he would go in And reduce all the costs knowing that everybody would think that what he was doing was what the landowner wanted everybody rejoices

01:09:39

In that culture in that time. It was very important that a man's reputation Was um, very very revered very very important to him

01:09:48

So if in fact they found out later that the landowner had not done this and said look I want all my money

01:09:54

Then all the celebration that these people were having in praising the the um the goodness of the landowner they're going to be even twice as upset and angry at the landowner and his

01:10:07

Greediness really manifested before people and he can't do that The shrewdness of the of the steward is to trust in the goodness and the reputation of the landowner

01:10:16

And he said jesus says this man shrewd good for him Because he even understood the seriousness

01:10:23

Of his position and where he was and how much more seriously should you take the issue of salvation for even the sons of wickedness?

01:10:31

Have more wisdom when it comes to the sons of light And he's talking to them the point i'm trying to make is you can't understand

01:10:37

A lot of things if you don't understand the culture And so therefore if you just go through and read what it says and say that's all it means

01:10:43

You are just being ignorant when you talk about first peter 321 baptism now saves you you didn't read the whole thing corresponding to that Baptism now saves you corresponding to what the immediate verse in verse 20 as it mentions the ark and the flood

01:11:01

Which of the two saved the people the ark or the flood did the saving in verse 20?

01:11:10

Which which saved people The flood everybody the flood killed people did the ark save people

01:11:18

That's that's the story That's right. Then the next words are Corresponding to that baptism now saves you what's he saying when he says corresponding to that?

01:11:30

What saves them? the ark Baptism is referring back to the ark so So it's not an issue of water baptism

01:11:40

Which is why peter then goes on and says not the removal of dirt from the flesh So you don't understand what the issue of the baptism is there i'm trying to tell you tell you raw is

01:11:51

It's going to be direct with you. You have such a poor understanding Of scripture poor understanding of the theology a poor understanding that and you don't even understand logic that when you say there's a contradiction

01:12:03

You don't even know what you're talking about You don't understand You commit fallacy after fallacy after fallacy

01:12:10

What i'm concerned about is this What i'm concerned about is this cult that you're starting

01:12:16

You start you guys are getting together and i'm going to be straight with you. I want you to understand something You know,

01:12:22

I would say this to your face if I was there i'd say it nicely but i'd say you're being arrogant You're being foolish

01:12:29

You're being deceptive. Okay, and I would say And you Are you're making up your own religion and you're voting on what's gonna be good and bad which is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum

01:12:44

The majority of people believe something so therefore it's true. The majority of people think is good.

01:12:50

Therefore. It's good It's not true. We were claiming that it was true, but it's not true.

01:12:55

You guys are sitting it's true man Then if you're not claiming it's true, then what you're doing is being completely arbitrary in your religion.

01:13:02

You're correct that's No, matt, you're not understanding what i'm talking about. Yes, I am.

01:13:07

You're not understanding what i'm saying What you're telling me is you guys go and you take different scriptures from different groups because you like them and you think they have

01:13:15

Value because you have this criteria benefit and help and things like that, right? Well, you see in my in my book to start a new religion.

01:13:25

You have to address morality in some sense So i've put down initial things that we can consider

01:13:34

That's all i've done. I haven't made truth claims. In fact, i've made Claims that these are are questionable.

01:13:40

In fact, and I do want to be questionable. Do you want to injure anybody?

01:13:46

No Do you want to help people? Sure. Yeah Jesus said that he was the way the truth in the life and nobody comes to the father but through him

01:13:57

And jesus rose from the dead And except to be gone to god without him in the old testament

01:14:04

Jesus was in the old testament genesis chapter 3 exodus 24 9 through 11 exodus Genesis 17 genesis 18 exodus chapter 6 exodus 33

01:14:14

So did moses see abraham see jesus or gone? He saw the pre -incarnate christ

01:14:20

They're not gone Now you understand the pre -incarnate christ is god. Jesus Jesus did not come into existence until 2 000 years ago

01:14:28

The divine person the second person of the trinity has always existed And the union of the second person of the trinity the word in human

01:14:36

With a human nature called the hypostatic union that event did not occur until the inception of the conception of christ

01:14:43

So that started so when you say they saw jesus technically, it's not correct Moses didn't see jesus because jesus wasn't alive back then jesus is the one person with two natures that did not occur

01:14:53

Until uh the the conception it's just who jesus old testament Who who moses and all the others were seeing was a pre -incarnate christ?

01:15:03

The word before the incarnation and was called christophanies or theophanies manifestations of god

01:15:10

And so they would see it was pre -incarnate. Jesus when when god gave all those rules. It was really pre -incarnate.

01:15:17

Jesus Every time you see god in the old testament like this There's a conversation or whatever

01:15:22

It's the pre -incarnate christ and the reason we know that is because jesus says not that anyone has seen the father except the one

01:15:28

Who is from god? He has seen the father speaking of himself. John 6 46 and first timothy 6 16

01:15:34

Paul the apostle says that not that any man or the father dwells an unapproachable light whom no man has seen nor can see

01:15:40

They were never seeing god the father in the old testament. They were seeing the pre -incarnate christ That's what that that's a theology you don't you don't know this most christians don't even know this well

01:15:50

Can you say that one more time? If that if most people don't know don't know it. Um, then it can't be really necessary for salvation, right?

01:15:58

um Most people don't know that jesus is a man right now Most people don't know that he's resurrected the same glorified body that he was in most people don't know that Jesus was most probably sprinkled at his baptism

01:16:08

Most people don't know a whole bunch of stuff There are certain critical issues that people need to understand in order to not deny the truth

01:16:15

What i'm concerned about with you is there's a judgment upon your heart and your mind Yeah judgment my mind you you need to read seriously.

01:16:24

You need to take very seriously romans chapter 1 starting at verse 18 Oh, that's the one about Everyone knowing in their heart that you know, basically look at the trees and and you should know jesus

01:16:35

Is starting at verse 18 to the end of the chapter verse 31 Because there's a judgment that comes upon people for their unrighteousness

01:16:43

What you want to do is play god No Yes, you want to start a religion of truth

01:16:51

Starting a religion doesn't mean you think you're god matt It's you're playing god only god

01:16:58

Only god has the right to say what is morally right and wrong and he told you that That's the nature of the infinite divine being who knows all things since he's

01:17:12

Well, then why do I have a really good moral axiom that seems to work on all the different moral conundrum? Because something worked doesn't mean it's true

01:17:21

Well, why should it work? Don't think all kinds of things work heroin addiction makes someone feel good.

01:17:27

It doesn't mean it's good. It doesn't mean it's right Answering moral conundrums man. It's because you haven't hold on guys and have a conscience

01:17:36

Okay I certainly have a conscience What i'm concerned about with you rall is that you're going to be contributing people's damnation and the judgment of god is upon your heart

01:17:57

And the evidence of that is already manifested in that you're believing certain lies

01:18:02

You're not believing in who god truly is in the revelation of the person and work of christ. And then you're getting

01:18:08

Fenced You're getting together with a bunch of people and then you're having these discussions where you then form of religion out of your subjective experiences and desires

01:18:17

This is a form of arrogance. No, not Not out of desires matt out of reasonable thought

01:18:24

It's your desires that that lead reasonable thought because you're not reasonable You're not logical so because Because I don't know i'm unreasonable therefore

01:18:37

I want to do a reasonable thing. No, you're illogical We have shown you me and others have shown you you're illogic it's not an issue of reason

01:18:47

It's an issue of your heart and your heart is just desperately wicked deceitful.

01:18:52

That's what the scripture says issue with my heart That's what you just said I'm, not sure how that makes here's the thing.

01:19:01

Here's the thing wrong um You don't have a basis for anything other than your subjective preferences

01:19:10

You subjectively prefer maslow's hierarchy You subjective need is is self -evident

01:19:17

No, these are self -evident man Need is self -evident doesn't mean anything.

01:19:22

Yeah, it does If you see a baby there that needs something real bad. What are you going to do?

01:19:29

Are you going to say that that need doesn't mean anything No, I didn't say that i'm saying that you don't have a basis for what morality is in a universe

01:19:39

Need is a basis man. It's an absolute. No need is nothing more than need A growling stomach is a chemical reaction need.

01:19:47

Is it a moral issue? When the stomach growls, is it a moral issue? It can be if you keep somebody from eating just just no just the growling just the chemicals reacting.

01:19:59

Is it a moral need? Chem things growling is not an action stomach grow.

01:20:06

Okay. So Yes, it is. It's an action your stomach growling because there's not enough food in the stomach.

01:20:11

Is it stomach moral or not? Okay, ral ral We're going to move along Seriously, i'm going to tell you something because for a long time

01:20:21

You actually have one of the least abilities to be able to to think critically

01:20:27

Of people that i've ever met I just asked you a serious question. You can't even answer a serious question.

01:20:34

I just asked here Let me try let me show you again. Let me show you again an empty stomach nothing more than an empty stomach

01:20:41

Chemical reactions cause the stomach to growl Hunger is that moral? Is my stomach growling moral?

01:20:51

Is it it's an action is the action a moral action? It's a question The stomach hold on hold on hold on Is it a moral action?

01:20:59

My stomach I as far as I know is not a thinking. Is it a moral action? If it was done by a thinking individual, it would be a moral action.

01:21:08

Okay, we're going to move along guys. You're just And what you don't understand about this, this is okay, okay because he is a very specific question

01:21:19

He's asking and you can't even answer a specific question But you can't answer it because You answer it.

01:21:25

Let's move along guys. Let's move along. Would a stomach growling be moral? No No, it wouldn't be more.

01:21:31

There's no morality involved at all in a stomach growling Guys, that's that's what we wanted wasting our time here.

01:21:38

So i'm going to bring edison in. Okay Who do we mean? Thanks, you guys.

01:21:44

It was nice talking with you All right Nice talking with you ron Do you want to are we stopping talking now?

01:21:51

Well, no, we're going to bring edison in Oh, so he can ask his questions. So edison you can you should be able to unmute

01:22:00

Unless your microphone is not working I think he can he's barely able to speak.

01:22:08

I can barely hear you Yeah, I don't think you're gonna turn yourself up yeah,

01:22:14

I don't know that he's actually using you're probably using the wrong mic Your microphone is probably not the right one

01:22:21

Because you are so faint and I got you turned up as much as we possibly can here um, it sounds like you probably think the microphone that's in your

01:22:30

Mouth is the right one and it probably is your computer one i'm gonna bring

01:22:36

Uh, who is this? This is dcn joseph Um Or sorry don joseph

01:22:46

So you can unmute yourself Oh, no, i'm i'm already uh, yeah i'm unmuted actually, there you go.

01:22:54

All right deacon joseph. Oh, okay deacon joseph. Hi um i'm trying

01:23:00

I First off i'm not exactly sure of the nature of the show. Um, I came on because I was on a orthodox catholic and protestant debate forum

01:23:09

Someone put this link up and said everyone argues on this show. So I was watching this and I uh

01:23:16

I'm, not i'm sorry. We're all but I think the whole creating your own religion thing. I vote against that I tend to being orthodox think everyone's creating their own religion.

01:23:26

So what are you? A greek orthodox or eastern western right orthodox. It's gonna be technical.

01:23:31

Okay, but orthodox christian So what exactly is this show about and am

01:23:37

I in the right place or should I just well if you have If you have uh questions apologetic questions questions about religion things like that you ask, uh, usually matt or i've

01:23:48

Will answer as best we can so and That's what the show is about Okay Um, well, uh,

01:23:57

I was actually just really just watching it. Uh more of interest. I'm more interested in defending the orthodox faith

01:24:03

Let's do it. Let's talk. Well, uh, well, that's a that's a very interesting Uh point i'm not sure what exactly is your

01:24:10

I guess this is some sort of reformed, uh kind of thing Well, we are reformed.

01:24:16

Okay here. Yeah Um, I would say eastern orthodox is not true christianity.

01:24:22

Oh, that's nice. Um, I think they feel the same way Um, do you feel the same way that it's not true?

01:24:28

Then why are you in it? We would feel the same way in reverse the point is Mutual Uh, now my question is what exactly separates you from wrong?

01:24:41

We're true. He's not. Okay, so bible Yeah, but how do you how do you judge the bible?

01:24:48

By reading it. I don't judge it. I submit to it. I don't judge it. That is how do you know the bible is the bible?

01:24:56

Uh god, uh, jesus says in john 10 27 28 my sheep hear my voice that's self -referencing

01:25:01

How do you know that the bible is the bible I don't judge god's word he reveals it By the nature of what he does through regeneration and we just know

01:25:10

Let me finish my sentences, please. Let me finish my sentences Sorry, okay I've tried to answer you with scripture with god's word.

01:25:17

I am not going to submit god's word to my authority I have to submit to god's word god's word says and jesus says in john 10 10 27

01:25:27

My sheep hear my voice and they follow after me This means that true christians follow the voice of christ since i'm indwelt by the lord.

01:25:35

Jesus christ I follow his voice, which is the revelation of scripture old and new testaments. That's it

01:25:40

You can ask me all kinds of more questions about it. I'm just going to come back and tell you the very same thing Well, how do you know what's in the new testament?

01:25:46

There were lots of books God made sure by his predestination That the books that are there were sovereignly put there by his will since he works all things after the counsel of his will

01:25:56

Ephesians 1 11. Wait a second. No, that's not true though. Yes, it is. I just quoted the verse

01:26:02

He works all things after the counsel of his will Yeah, but the point is those books were all books the word bible itself comes from the greek biblios.

01:26:09

It's a library. So what? the library God does Let me just work with him.

01:26:14

God does how? I don't know how god does it. He does it. He's the guy who's

01:26:19

I can tell you how there were bishops in 300 who decided which gospels were written by the apostles.

01:26:26

Oh It's the religion Well, they picked the books All right, so so yeah, he's done yeah

01:26:43

What happened well You frustrated him Or I did. How did how are the books selected though?

01:26:50

I didn't I didn't realize that I was I wasn't muted The reality is the question would be asked what we wait for matt to come back in How are you different than raul?

01:26:57

You have a bunch of men that are creating the religion a bunch of men The books that you call the bible god

01:27:04

No, the council decided that no, they didn't there were lots of there were lots of false gospels and it was the church

01:27:11

No, it was not But what bible what verse of the bible says that we need to rely on men what verse of the bible says it's self -referential um well

01:27:23

You know first timothy 3 16 Yeah, but he says all scripture before there were even scriptures completely written that's an epistle

01:27:30

It doesn't mean it has to be completely written. All scripture is god -breathed, but that leads to the question That's what makes a canon is the source of the author.

01:27:38

Ah, okay But at that time they were using the subtuagent which is something that's not being used now

01:27:44

And there are books that most protestants refer to as apocrypha If I remember correctly, even though those were not scripture

01:27:51

They were canonical books The problem with the apocrypha was the very men that you want to rely on to give you scripture

01:27:59

When you put men in it the men Couldn't fit you could we're trying to add things to god's word or take away things that were god's word

01:28:08

But what made it scripture is not the men what made it scripture is god spoke it and so the

01:28:17

Reality is joseph you and roll are no different you you just have I would say that you and roll are no different because you're both you're

01:28:24

Both using the bible and you're both not realizing the bible was Collected you and roll are both working on a crowd sourcing religion of having a bunch of men that are deciding it

01:28:36

You're you're basing all of your beliefs on god's word The same crowd sourcing no, of course.

01:28:43

How am I? Okay? What's the crowd because i've matt said it I said it the crowd would be the church in the first.

01:28:50

No, I never Listen joseph, do you believe you're not church in the first four centuries joseph?

01:28:57

Try to listen. Okay. I'm listening. We never said church. You keep saying that so you're arguing someone else's argument

01:29:04

Well in actually the presbyters were made in the church now, where's the church then?

01:29:12

See, this is why matt got frustrated You if you if you'd like to discuss with us what what we believe you could discuss with us if you want to argue

01:29:21

I wasn't going to argue anything until somebody said eastern orthodoxy is a false religion, but then

01:29:26

I thought hey And here's why I mean you're proving it because your authority is a bunch of men not god

01:29:32

But those men are inspired by god. How do you know that it says so in the scriptures where? Give me the scripture that says that these men that came hundreds of years after scripture.

01:29:42

We're going to be inspired by god Do you believe the apostles were inspired by god? They were dead by the time that you're talking so but they weren't dead when the bible was written

01:29:51

So you didn't have a bible you didn't have a bible until 300s There was no bible until 300s.

01:29:57

There were epistles Okay, so So the the bible didn't exist.

01:30:02

That's correct. There were epistles there were epistles and there were gospels So here's here's the difference joseph you believe men

01:30:11

Made the bible therefore. It's not god's word. We believe Why would that be true?

01:30:17

Let me finish or I will mute you while I speak Okay, because when you talk over each other no one gets to hear anything

01:30:26

Okay Okay If your argument and i'm just going to be honest with you joseph if your argument is so weak

01:30:33

That you can't let me finish a sentence. It shows your arguments weak. I'm not okay

01:30:41

And you're doing it still what makes scripture scripture

01:30:47

Is that it was spoken? by god Not men

01:30:54

Men don't make it god's word It is god's word as matt said We don't defend it

01:31:01

We don't try to justify it. It is because of its nature of the author of who spoke it

01:31:09

Do you see that difference? Oh, I see it I just follow it to its logical conclusion

01:31:16

Okay, which which is what which is if those books? disparate books of the bible 27 in the new testament, correct

01:31:26

Yeah Okay, those books were written at diverse times and places. Yes by different people

01:31:33

Okay, I agree there were competing gnostic gospels. We're aware of the gospel of thomas

01:31:39

The protovangelion of james so on and so forth I disagree No, those existed.

01:31:45

You can't no, I agree. They existed, but you said they were competing in that that I don't know Well, they were held by certain groups gnostics

01:31:51

Certain men certain men. Sure. Sure But but that's back to your man -made religion.

01:31:57

That's That's back to your crowdsourcing without the man -made religion No bible would exist today wrong

01:32:04

Their history doesn't bear out your statement Okay, you're taking god out of the picture, yeah exactly the whole point is

01:32:11

Wait, wait, wait, can I answer that for a second? Sure because So far i've seen that you've mentioned the men thing and i'm taking god out of the picture

01:32:18

If god inspired those men If no, hey, no, let me finish.

01:32:24

I let you finish. I thought I was muted if god inspired those men

01:32:31

And well, we're not going to argue why or how that happened because that that's a whole other discussion

01:32:37

But if god inspired those men to choose the books correctly then

01:32:43

The argument that it is a man -made religion Is false because god had to inspire the men to pick the books.

01:32:49

Am I correct? No Why? Okay, you first have the burden of proof to show where god has said that he inspired men

01:32:59

Not his word Um, okay, so you're saying that god did not inspire the apostles

01:33:07

No, he inspired his word. It's his word that he breathed through men. What happened at pentecost exactly?

01:33:13

So can I ask you a question jock joseph? Sure. Sure. Um The the men are what make it inspired right in your view god is what makes it inspired

01:33:24

So it's not the men well, no it's god and the men So When the men write it becomes inspired

01:33:34

No, when god tells the men to write it becomes inspired Okay So in other words, it's not the men.

01:33:41

It's god Well, it's god working through men. Okay, so that's the position we said and you told us we were wrong

01:33:49

No, that's what i'm saying is that when those men chose the canon of scripture, that's not different now

01:33:56

That's a different thing how? Because we're not talking about men choosing it we're talking about god writing it through men

01:34:02

So was it them god writing it through men that made it scripture or was it the men?

01:34:08

Choosing it that made it scripture, which one? I would say that it was god showing

01:34:14

Through men Which scriptures were inspired by him? You've added a third way.

01:34:20

No, it's not a third way. It's the same thing Okay, so we'll try we'll try it would break it down Give you all three was it god

01:34:30

Speaking through men that made it scripture. In other words that god is the one speaking or Was it the men that selected the books that made it scripture?

01:34:41

Or was it this last one you gave where god? Spoke through men who later men recognized it which one made it scripture

01:34:49

I would say it was all three because god is working through all of them Okay um

01:34:56

And raw's laughing You're I mean you get you probably get along well with his his group, unfortunately, um, hopefully

01:35:05

I could convert them to orthodoxy It wouldn't be any difference. I mean it's still it's still end up in hell

01:35:10

It's all subjective anyway, you know people end up in hell in all sorts of different ways And the heresy is one of them, but there's a lot of different ways.

01:35:17

Yeah, that's true So here's the thing what makes it scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with men at all

01:35:27

That just doesn't jive with history Yeah, I know it jives with god's word No, no, it doesn't jive with god's word either either because the bible doesn't identify itself what makes it god's word

01:35:39

What makes it scripture? What makes it scripture is that it comes from the body of christ?

01:35:45

No It comes from the mouth of god Do you believe that the body of christ has a mouth?

01:35:53

What scripture verse says that What scripture verse says?

01:36:05

Oh, I didn't realize that that was a question. I'm, sorry Were you at what scripture verse says that the body of christ has a mouth?

01:36:12

That that it's because Here's what scripture says all scripture is breathed out by god

01:36:19

There's nothing in there about church What scripture was he referring to Uh, well it says all scripture so that would be the scripture that already was written

01:36:31

Old testament That would be the scripture that was currently being written at the time He's writing it including in this case second timothy which he was writing at that time.

01:36:39

So it would include the old testament. Yes And so now which by the way

01:36:46

They had that canon long before The new testament, well, it's very interesting that you say that because the canon of the old testament in the greek

01:36:55

Was different than the hebrew, which is why the council of jamnia was held in ad 70

01:37:00

To remove those books, but it wasn't until the completion of the masoretic text that that occurred so If all scripture is inspired by god,

01:37:11

I would turn that back on you and ask Or say the books of maccabees Inspired by god, no, no jewish person thought that that were that they were

01:37:21

That's actually not true. All greeks thought that they were and that's what hanukkah was a celebration of it was

01:37:28

That was not what's hanukkah was a celebration of you really you think hanukkah was not a celebration of the maccabees.

01:37:34

Uh, well I was raised In with 10 years of hebrew school. Okay, and and celebrating hanukkah in an orthodox way every year

01:37:44

Yeah, I think I do understand a little bit about hanukkah having been taught of it in hebrew school every year

01:37:51

Okay, that's great. Hanukkah was a celebration of judas maccabeus having Judas maccabeus a jewish person.

01:38:00

He's the leader of the maccabees. Yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with the books These being scripture historical events

01:38:11

So it had to do hanukkah is the celebration of them being at war with rome and having

01:38:16

Uh, the oil that should have only lasted for one day lasted for eight days, which is a miracle

01:38:24

Excuse me. Where does it talk about any of that in the bible? Uh, well, that would be illogical to expect that something in an intertestamental period would be spoken of I mean the old testament

01:38:36

There wasn't the recordings at that time because the canon of the old testament closed at that point

01:38:43

So it isn't in the old. That's interesting because the early church always recognized maccabees as canonical

01:38:51

Only from your men Your your council the ones who picked the bible the books of the bible. No god picked the bible

01:38:59

Did god come down and say these are the books of the bible i'm choosing? Is that what you're saying? Because if that's what you're saying, that's the mormon argument

01:39:06

Oh, really? That's a mormon argument. Absolutely Okay, there's a logical fallacy.

01:39:11

Um, no, that's not the mormon argument And not that I want to defend mormonism, but mormonism doesn't argue that Because mormonism has their golden plate supposedly that joseph smith translated, but that's not all of their scriptures.

01:39:26

Now, is it? No, I don't know all of their scriptures I can't say i'm You don't know what you know about that.

01:39:33

We do know about the golden plates and and okay, so Joseph don't bring something up and make and use a logical fallacy of trying to say you haven't explained that i'm wrong

01:39:43

Because it's something like mormonism when you don't even understand mormonism because mormonism has more authorities than just those than just Oh, well, well i'll okay.

01:39:52

I'll let the mormonism drop for a moment However, you still have not answered the question of how god picked the book of the bible because he spoke them to who

01:40:06

To the guys who wrote it he he superintended it so that they wrote it when the Books magically came together from different places.

01:40:14

So you oh magically I'm, just wondering I don't understand how you got the authority of it is god

01:40:21

Not the men you want to put the focus on the men and say we didn't have a bible even though it was written hundreds and even thousands of years

01:40:31

Before i'm not talking about the old testament. I'm talking about the new So the old testament's not scripture.

01:40:36

I didn't say that i'm asking that of course the old testament is scripture When did it become scripture?

01:40:43

It was and that's a good question. When did it become scripture? I asked the question.

01:40:48

Yeah Quit throwing it back on him answer the question Well, I would say that that had that each of the you know

01:40:55

The books of moses were accepted by the people the books of the prophets were accepted by the people

01:41:01

You know, there's people involved the old testament which council which council?

01:41:07

Well, it was a number of councils over time. I mean the books took the books of the old testament 3 000 years in the writing which council accepted the books of moses

01:41:17

That's a good question. I can't say you you're the scholar of jewish history There was none

01:41:23

There had to have been why did there have to be? Oh there had to have been because of confirmation bias

01:41:30

No Because it doesn't make sense. Otherwise, we were forgetting that there was a rabbinical council if we remember christ.

01:41:38

There wasn't There wasn't a rabbinical council. That's even an axe. That's how saint paul turns the pharisees and the sadducees

01:41:45

Uh the rabbis the rabbinical system didn't start until the the babylonian

01:41:52

I understand because it was so that was that was about 15 give or take like 1500

01:41:57

Maybe like at least A thousand years probably after moses wrote so you're saying there was no scripture moses wrote.

01:42:06

Well, they had prophets Not at that time They had judges

01:42:12

Not at that time that came after moses Okay. So are you referring to the period of the babylonian exile?

01:42:19

I'm curious as to what period you're referring to where the jews the first five books of moses When did it become scripture was was moses himself not an authority?

01:42:29

What was the council? He they didn't have a council then because they didn't have a council individual prophets

01:42:36

So what made it scripture is god speaking it. I don't understand why you have such a problem with god

01:42:43

I think part of the reason why you want to get to it Just being god speaking it is because you want to take out the human aspect of it

01:42:52

And that's important the human the human aspect was involved in the writing And that was it

01:42:59

What the humans don't make it god's word as you're arguing. They don't make it scripture

01:43:04

It is the what makes it scripture is the nature that god spoke now the question becomes

01:43:10

How do you know that god did not speak through the gospel of thomas? Because he didn't keep it in his book

01:43:17

But he didn't keep it or take it out that was taken out by the church No, there were some people that wanted to add it in And they projected that okay.

01:43:31

I want to ask a question Because we seem to be going in circles here Do you believe that there was a church established by the apostles?

01:43:40

That continued Onward after they died Define what you mean by church a living breathing community with leaders established

01:43:51

Previous to them eventually going back to the apostles In other words as saint paul and other apostles established elders in the churches

01:44:00

And we can go to ignatius of antioch in the second century. We can go to polycarp

01:44:05

We can go to clement. These were people established by the apostles This we have historical records of this.

01:44:11

So do you believe they had an apostolic succession? Absolutely, and I think that that by the time

01:44:16

Saint irenaeus is writing in the end of the second century. That was not only well established

01:44:21

It was a way of distinguishing the church from the gnostics writing false gospels How do you know because you know what they had their their apostles too?

01:44:29

But they did not keep the rule of faith Who defines that? That would be defined by the apostles because that's what jesus christ gave them

01:44:39

And that's what we call circular logic the apostles decide what the rule of faith is

01:44:45

They didn't follow it. Then you are in the church, which defines who are the apostles? They proclaimed it they were speaking with the inspiration of god.

01:44:53

Remember that whole god inspiring men thing Yeah, that's why we just stop with god you when you add human you're adding all this in and you want to have history as your

01:45:02

Your rule of but it's not just history. It's it's all it's divine history Is there such thing as divine history in your view?

01:45:11

I don't know what you mean by that Is there a history of god teaching men?

01:45:17

And that men act upon it. We find that in acts Did it die with the apostles is my question?

01:45:26

Um when you speak of the position of the apostles, yes

01:45:32

Okay, what guide I just said the the apostles. Okay, so the apostles did they establish leaders in the churches pastors?

01:45:42

Not apostles. Well, they established overseers. We would call them almost super overseers because they could go anywhere

01:45:50

No We see them. We see people here's what we see We see paul criticizing people that want to say they're super apostles and super overseers

01:45:59

It was criticized another what we see is is god saying what you just said is wrong we see that in scripture

01:46:05

Uh to clarify what did I what did I say? That there were are super apostles or super elders.

01:46:12

We would call them that the apostles that that's that's an orthodox Kind of thinking on that what

01:46:17

I meant by it because what says is wrong Okay, did the apostles establish overseers and deacons or not?

01:46:25

Pastors and deacons, that's it Okay, well they didn't it didn't say pastor specifically pastorism uses three terms it uses the term for elder

01:46:35

Bishop Yes, i'm quite aware or shepherd right so now those but it's but it's the same position it's not the position

01:46:45

That a apostle would have so the no, of course not Apostles are unique and very rare outside of the 12.

01:46:53

They're extremely we have the 70 but that's we're not going to go into that My deeper question to you is then so you would agree then that the apostles did establish leaders in the churches a hierarchical structure if you will uh

01:47:09

Did he well? No But that's in the bible that's right.

01:47:15

So what is it that set it up? It wasn't it wasn't the apostles was it? Yeah, literally was the apostles.

01:47:22

No, it literally was the bible There was no bible Remember this is acts was one of the earliest books written

01:47:29

So even the epistles were not completed. Remember saint paul's letter to the hebrew

01:47:35

Hebrews was written much later. The real question is since we're getting into the topic

01:47:41

Did the apostles establish leaders and teaching in the church? I don't think any of us should dispute that there's no reason to Yeah, they're not apostles that they established

01:47:54

Okay, i'm talking about the 12 apostles the ones in acts yeah, okay did they establish churches

01:48:02

No acts god did Okay, god did through them That we we we kind of I think agree upon this even though we don't want to agree on the terminology

01:48:13

No technology makes all the difference because you're absolutely your focus is on man and our focus is on god

01:48:19

Well, my focus is on man and god because I believe god came to save men. No. No. Okay.

01:48:24

Let me ask you this If we remove men from the picture Would god's word be god's word?

01:48:33

Uh, I don't understand your question If god wrote his word without human beings

01:48:39

Would it be scripture? If god wrote his word with let me see if I understand you correctly if god wrote his word without humans in other words,

01:48:50

I not sure how I just assume like with the with the The ten commandments he just god he created a universe out of nothing.

01:48:57

You think he can't do that? I didn't say that Okay, simply as i'm trying to understand your thinking here.

01:49:03

Well, i'm taking an element out of your argument I'm taking out the human element and trying to figure out what makes scripture scripture

01:49:11

I will say that what makes scripture scripture is that god Spoke it but my question is why are you taking the human element out to begin with?

01:49:20

Because that's not what makes it scripture. So the question is why are you adding that in?

01:49:26

Well, that's why i'm asking this question If we take the human element out of the process altogether, it's something else.

01:49:35

It isn't the bible. It's not scripture It's not the bible Is it scripture? Is it?

01:49:41

We've never seen that okay the answer would be yes, but the answer is it's a theoretical question

01:49:47

No, it's not a theoretical question. It's based out of second. Timothy All scripture is god breathed and it's all man that's what makes it

01:49:59

That's what makes it inspired and what makes it scripture It's the men don't make it scripture.

01:50:05

You're adding that into the process and the reason i'm trying to to to eliminate that is to see if You're going to say that it would be scripture and you're saying no it won't so Fundamentally You have scripture that's relied upon men, which is why you need your councils.

01:50:22

We'll call it crowdsourcing. You can join roles group and you guys But you're no different than what role is doing

01:50:33

I don't really understand what role is doing. I haven't actually heard his thing. I mean, it's called a council is what he's doing

01:50:44

It's it's your council it's a bunch of men getting together and deciding also hold the council We're all saying it's not i'm asking is did what

01:50:52

I asked is did the apostles hold the council when Uh during well during the beginning of the church

01:51:00

We don't we only have a record in acts 15 of one council It had nothing to do with deciding what books or would or would not be scripture

01:51:09

It had to do with what you we can eat whether we have to keep kosher or not

01:51:14

Okay, but wait, but that was a council. So the apostles met in council I believe the term used in the scripture is they met in council, correct?

01:51:23

Yes Okay, and so when councils are not unusual unbelievers met in council believers met in council

01:51:30

This is interesting. So believers and apostles met in council Unbelievers. Well, okay, but believer did believers meet in council or not?

01:51:38

We know the apostles, you know, there's a council that goes on in washington dc That's great. It happens all the time

01:51:44

And they're not they're not the apostles That's right. But there's nothing that has nothing to do with a council

01:51:50

The point i'm trying to make is if you're discounting councils because they have men the apostles themselves did the same thing.

01:51:57

That's not what I did I mean, you don't it was a beautiful straw man. You built I mean, why were the apostles crowdsourcing in the bible?

01:52:05

I'm, just curious Your argument is that they got together

01:52:11

And the men are necessary. That's not my argument. That's a scripture What verse?

01:52:19

Uh, we want to go to the apostolic council. I don't No, I said what verse not the council go together

01:52:25

We're not going to a bunch of men that had a council we're going to scripture. Okay. Sure. Um, let's give me one second here

01:52:35

I should just use google and so so let me google it. It's faster So what we're going to see is that he'll go to a council because that's what orthodox have is councils.

01:52:48

Oh, yeah, uh chapter 15 That would be acts of the apostles chapter 15. There's a reference to it in paul's letter to the galatians chapter 2

01:52:56

Oh, yeah. No, that's that's totally different. That has nothing to do with scripture But that's not your argument

01:53:02

But wait, did you just say okay your argument is that the men? Had a council that the scripture says that the men

01:53:10

Had to select the scripture. What verse is oh, no, I didn't say that. That's what you said

01:53:16

No, I was talking about that. The apostles have councils That We established that everybody has councils

01:53:22

Okay, but everybody unbelievers have councils, but everybody unbelievers aren't the church the question the question was uh

01:53:30

Depends how you define church There's no way there. Okay. Did jesus christ establish a church or not?

01:53:38

The term church and if you get my book, what do we believe you'll understand that the term church changed over time

01:53:45

It's become more and more precise The term ecclesia Has to do with voting.

01:53:53

Do you know that? Um, go say that again, please I missed that it's a greek it was when the greeks would call

01:54:01

People for a vote those called out. Yes. I'm aware for a vote

01:54:06

Is that is is that the only thing that is that what the church does is we just gather to vote on on the government?

01:54:14

policies No Okay, so it changed well, it didn't change it's just has more than one meaning it's

01:54:26

Only a door it's become more and more precise and So it became more precise.

01:54:35

This is interesting, but you said that Well, you're you're agreeing with it because you're saying that you want to limit the church

01:54:43

The ecclesia to just believers in jesus christ. Do you not? You don't believe the church is limited to believers in jesus christ, that's not what ecclesia would mean in its original

01:54:52

Asking i'm not I don't want to talk about words. Do you believe that the church? Is composed of believers in jesus christ or not?

01:55:01

again the universal church or the local church Was there a difference historically?

01:55:08

Yes. No, I mean was there a difference in terms of the definition I just gave I'm trying to figure out the definition which you mean it and that's why

01:55:17

I keep asking where we have established I'm trying to establish here. The church locally and universally was composed of believers in jesus christ.

01:55:26

This is This is not a big thing That's no what is referred to as the local church includes believers and unbelievers that locally gather and Yeah, they go to they go to a place of where they worship role would be an example of one who went and was not

01:55:43

A believer no offense roll Can I interrupt just a moment? Um, I was really curious about you.

01:55:50

Were you talking about that? It was ecclesia that means the church was voting or something Can you give me more information about that or where I could find it?

01:55:57

Sure the original term for ecclesia Is the word the term comes from the greek the first that we see it used

01:56:05

Is the term when the the greeks had a system where everyone was required to vote

01:56:11

It's a real you know, they tried to be a real republic Okay, everybody had a requirement to vote and That gathering for the vote was called ecclesia.

01:56:23

That was the first time we see it used it's changed over time Well, you're talking about the secular term not the spiritual term.

01:56:30

I mean when jesus christ said i'll establish Well Was he talking about the greek senate?

01:56:36

and Okay, so so roll what i'll do i'll get you. Um, if you go to striving fraternity dot org

01:56:43

Uh, there is an article on the church just search for church and you'll find it. You should find it. Uh, if not, um

01:56:49

Have a history of of voting and kind of democracy that kind of thing No, it it wasn't it the whole thing that that you'll see and you'll see it also in my book.

01:57:00

What what do we believe? On the the church the term ecclesia or church has changed and become more and more precise over time

01:57:10

And it is used and that's why we have to establish how it's being used If it's being used as a universal or what's called the invisible church.

01:57:18

It means only believers Everywhere in the world. Where does it say the church is invisible?

01:57:24

In the body, these are terms that people have used to try to explain The different ways people use the word church to be more precise to refer different to those that are believers versus those who are

01:57:37

In a building and worshiping god. Oh, well, i'm not going to talk about temples the orthodox term for i'm not talking about No, no, i'm talking about where you gather every week temple.

01:57:47

It's not the point is the church is the people So that's that's not my point is this was there a consistent teaching of what the church

01:57:54

Was the word church in the first century second century and in the scriptures The way that you're using it.

01:58:02

No Wow Okay. I'm, sorry. You you you you can't sit here and say that we have to use a term

01:58:09

That came years later and apply it back in time But then you want to say when when we see that we use the word church different ways today

01:58:18

That we can only use it the way you want it to be used you Waste but here's the problem the problem with that argument is that there was a clear definition of what was the church in the first century

01:58:30

Yeah And it had nothing to do with what you think it did does it it had to be the gathering of people

01:58:37

Uh, where where where would you come to the conclusion that it didn't have to do with what I believe it has to do

01:58:43

I'm curious. I you just said because the way the word was used at the time. That's how we do interpretation

01:58:49

We look at the way the word was used at the time the word was used secularly And the word was used by christians differently

01:58:58

Christians used it differently, correct? And then as that became different It changed so you can't take you can't take something that happens later and apply it to earlier

01:59:08

Okay but we would establish that that by the time christ says church and the apostles used church that they had a

01:59:15

A specific and distinct meaning and we can throw out the whole greek senate stuff. That was well This I mean, this is really good.

01:59:22

You you I'll give you kudos for your uh, Obfuscation to try to avoid the fact that there is absolutely no scripture verse

01:59:30

That says that men would have a council to determine god's word, which you claim scripture says, okay

01:59:37

Uh, I have a question You keep asking you know this and this is a great tactic for folks who are watching

01:59:42

This is what you have when people can't when people have an argument that doesn't have an answer what they do is just go

01:59:48

Let me ask a different question I'm not asking different questions. Trust me. They all have a specific purpose.

01:59:55

It's called a red herring No, it's it's not what does act 247 say? Since we've got to go to the scriptures

02:00:06

What does it say? It says and the lord added to the church daily such as should be saved

02:00:12

So you believe that Of course you don't believe that the men selected who would be part of the church

02:00:18

Well, I believe the lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. So so the men Voting on who should be members of the church that had nothing to do

02:00:27

Voting that I don't know where this whole greek senate and voting fun stuff came about I'm, just asking because that's how you believe we got the scripture.

02:00:34

So you're saying Hold on, joseph. I want to see if I get this right you're saying that god can add to the church

02:00:41

Without people involved, but he can't speak. Well, if he's adding people people are involved so um

02:00:50

Since we've come up on the the hour. Uh, let's see. I did want to just point to one thing.

02:00:56

I don't actually believe that men voted on the scripture What if we look at what the council did at nicaea?

02:01:04

They actually put the gospels down and left the room So that the holy spirit would hold on to which books were held and that is how uh,

02:01:13

The gospel of thomas was knocked off and that is how the four gospels were Officially codified.

02:01:19

Yeah, see and this is where we differ because I would say they were never scripture So they were never knocked off. They were never

02:01:26

Gospels weren't script. Those were the four gospels, you know the ones in the bible the Thomas was never knocked off because it was never scripture

02:01:35

God didn't speak it. Therefore. It was never know that It wasn't that it was knocked off it wasn't that there were men that convinced

02:01:44

People that the other books were scripture They were never scripture because god didn't speak and what made it scripture god speaking it

02:01:52

But that's not what historically happened because you had saints of the church specifically saying this book is not scripture

02:01:58

This book was not written by an apostle. It doesn't matter It doesn't matter what a bunch of men decided if they're men inspired by god, they weren't inspired by god

02:02:09

Oh, it says they were they were inspired by god That is that is this the the order of succession that you said they have to follow the faith of the men who say it's the succession

02:02:20

That's circular So what i'm saying is that the men inspired by god? So here's the thing joseph

02:02:28

The thing is this What you have is what makes it scripture is the fact that god spoke it

02:02:38

Not that men recognized it not that men Because I would say men recognize it you want to say that men uh

02:02:46

Inspired it that men selected Inspired by god wrote it and that it was then codified by men inspired by god

02:02:55

I think that that would be the most logical thing to say So when when did the new testament?

02:03:01

andrew How do you think the new testament actually, you know became scripture and and when?

02:03:08

When it was spoken by god so we had the new testament like as soon as As somebody wrote the first book because what makes it scripture what makes it inspired is that it is god

02:03:22

Breathed it's god spoken That's what makes it scripture. And so when soon as god speaks it by the nature of who god is that makes it scripture

02:03:32

Now what men recognizing it doesn't make it scripture As as joseph wants to argue it is that god

02:03:41

So i'm just wondering when we got the new testament Well, the new testament would be a different question what you're asking when the canon was recognized when god's word was recognized

02:03:52

Humans have the new testament scriptures so, um All right,

02:03:58

I got the link so I will give you guys here the link for the after show because this show

02:04:03

Is a couple minutes over Give this in For folks in youtube if you want to go to the council has the after show which the council by the way uh and joseph will appreciate this the council was actually set up because they were uh debating with a bunch of Uh eastern orthodox who would always have to go back to their councils to make their arguments.

02:04:27

Uh Sort of like joseph is it would have had to do if he's going to try to go

02:04:33

I mean, I I could argue directly from scripture, but i'd like to discuss the scripture, you know

02:04:40

Okay, so we're we're going to we're closing out the show Uh, there's a link for folks both in youtube and in the chat here

02:04:48

If folks want to go to the after show to continue discussion joseph if you want to come back next thursday

02:04:54

Sorry, not next thursday. There will be no show next thursday. My bad no show next thursday every other thursday

02:05:01

Uh, we will be here if you want to come back and continue this Discussion we'd be happy to do that um

02:05:08

We you could just go to apologetics live Dot com every thursday night eight o 'clock eastern time the link to join will be there all the time

02:05:17

This is a ministry of striving for eternity. We always appreciate the carm .org

02:05:22

And matt slick and what he is, uh what he brings to this even though he uh got frustrated

02:05:28

Uh, but the thing is this, uh, we we do want you know, you enroll you're still here um

02:05:36

We care about you. All right. I I know that you and matt and I disagree matt and I disagree with you but the thing is where our

02:05:45

Concern is as matt tried to say is is is the fact that you know You have you're trying to create a religion you're trying to create and and we understand this it's it's no different men do this

02:05:57

People do this they try to create something That makes them feel better about who they are that that realistically and I know you're going to disagree with us and we could talk about it in the after show or another show, but What it ends up doing is it ends up being that people try to create something

02:06:14

To make them feel better about themselves And to really not get right with god god's way.

02:06:20

So let me just explain what the gospel is And so at least you know that you've heard it

02:06:27

Okay Because I don't think in in the in whatever church you grew up in that you you properly heard it

02:06:33

Or at least you didn't understand the terminology and the meaning of it So this is the thing you and I both break god's law you refer to the ten commandments

02:06:41

Ten commandments are a great example of laws that we can never keep when we look at the ten commandments

02:06:46

They are there the law is a tutor to us It is there to show us a mirror to reflect to us that we cannot keep god's word

02:06:54

We are sinful we break his law. We're criminals in his sight Because god is infinitely holy and infinitely

02:07:03

Just He must bring with our crimes an infinite consequence now

02:07:09

The problem is it would take us forever to pay an infinite consequence however an infinite being

02:07:18

Can come into time And pay that fine once in time and because he is infinite that time would be paid for all of eternity

02:07:28

And he can pay it for more people because he is not a temporal being he's an infinite being This is why jesus christ being fully god and fully man is so important Because being the fact that jesus christ is fully god

02:07:42

It shows that jesus christ Is that infinite being? being fully man he can

02:07:49

Have never sinned never broken that law and be that perfect sacrifice. So when jesus christ died on that cross

02:07:57

We who break his law the only way that we can get right with god, which we were talking earlier about what is salvation

02:08:04

That entry point and salvation is used three different ways. It's speaking of that point of regeneration or justification

02:08:13

It is then that point of sanctification that process where we become more like christ where we're we're we

02:08:20

Have that cleansing and then there's glorification the moment we die where sin is eradicated from our flesh and so what you see

02:08:28

Is that the term in general is used three different ways? Here's what we talk about when we talk about justification.

02:08:35

It is we us getting right with god and we do so When god brings us to repentance, we recognize our sin before a holy god.

02:08:42

We come to him We ask forgiveness of our sin Recognizing that he is the only thing the only being possible that can pay the fine that we owe

02:08:53

And that is what salvation is And I I do have a concern as matt does for your soul

02:09:00

And the souls of the people that you're leading into damnation. That's our concern for it and and it'd be for the others

02:09:05

I mean just like for joseph look Folks we don't ask whether you'll agree with us

02:09:11

We're here to to take your answer your questions. If you want to challenges happen more tonight. We'll try to answer those challenges

02:09:19

But this is something that does have serious I know that the question was asked of role earlier whether he's just having fun or something like that There are some people that do that they take light of it, but these are serious matters

02:09:31

These are literally the difference of eternal life or death And so my challenge to anyone that's listening is to consider these things and to recognize that literally your eternal soul

02:09:42

Hangs in a balance what you do with jesus christ makes literally all the difference in the world

02:09:49

And so my plea to you is that you repent turn from trusting yourself as a good person trusting your good morals your good works

02:09:56

Trust in jesus christ and him alone that way you may have eternal life And so that is the message we'd have we will not have an apologetics live next week

02:10:07

But but please subscribe to the apologetics live podcast Whatever podcast app you have so you can get the audio version every week also

02:10:16

Make sure that you subscribe to the christian podcast community to get all of the podcasts that we have And I will say this that this past week on my rap report daily my two -minute version podcast

02:10:28

We did have this week we dealt in two minutes with many of the issues brought up here today specifically what happens at salvation

02:10:36

That would have been wednesday's broadcast So for roll that would be a good one to go and check out just search for rap report this week

02:10:44

The way I think it was a wednesday one on salvation And even in two minutes we try to explain all the things that go on At that point of salvation that role and I were discussing earlier.

02:10:55

So folks. We're glad you paid attention You tune into what's going on Please come back bring your questions bring your challenges in two weeks for the next apologetics live